DMN: BLOG: What would you give up for (Det) Roy Williams?

[Cbz40]

What would you give up for Roy Williams?

5:57 PM Mon, Jan 21, 2008 | Permalink (http://cowboys.beloblog.com/archives/2008/01/what_would_you_give_up_for_roy_williams.html)
Tim MacMahon



I'm referring to the Roy Williams who plays receiver in Detroit (http://www.nfl.com/players/profile?id=00-0022909). As noted by some of you folks in the comments, word out of Motown is that the Texas-ex might be on the trading block. (http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf/2008/01/marinellis_offseason_should_be.html)I believe Williams is going to be used as trade bait leading up to the draft because he'll likely bolt when he becomes a free agent in 2009.Williams sure would be a great fit at Valley Ranch, considering the Cowboys are in the market for a big-play receiver to complement (and eventually replace) T.O. In fact, odds are the Cowboys will try to find one in the first round.

I'd have no problem with the Cowboys shipping one of their first-round picks to Detroit for Williams. Of course, since Matt Millen is running the show up there, I'd advise Jerry to start with a ridiculous low-ball offer and work his way up only if necessary.

[Big Dakota]

Roy Williams:D

[Rack Bauer]

Roy Williams:D

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/Smileys/extras/stirthepot.gif

[theogt]

#28 and our 2nd rounder.

[dallasfaniac]

Drinking?

[This is Our Year]

I think it may be risky...... I know he is young but for some reason I would have cold feet about bringing this guy in. Plus, I don't think TO would be too thrilled with the move IMO.

[Big Dakota]

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/Smileys/extras/stirthepot.gif

:shush:

[Rack Bauer]

#28 and our 2nd rounder.

Might be able to just give up the 2nd rounder. We could argue that if they thought he was worth a first, why are they trading him?

[Big Dakota]

Might be able to just give up the 2nd rounder. We could argue that if they thought he was worth a first, why are they trading him?


Because he's said he wants to go back to Texas if possible. When healthy his production can't be questioned IMHO.

[Sarge]

#28 and our 2nd rounder.

That's too much....IMO/FWIW.

[Hostile]

Our 2nd round pick and Akin Ayodele.

[Rack Bauer]

Because he's said he wants to go back to Texas if possible. When healthy his production can't be questioned IMHO.

That's the big problem though. He isn't healthy that often. Not healthy enough anyway.

That's too much....IMO/FWIW.

Agreed.

[theogt]

That's too much....IMO/FWIW.I think the guy is "worth" a top 5 pick if you're getting him at age 26 with a long-term contract. Our 2nd round pick isn't worth much because it's so late. Same for our 1st. No one would in their right mind trade a top 5 pick for our 1st and 2nd. So, if we can get him with that and give him the contract, it'd be a steal in that sense.

Now, it may not take that much to get him, so it might be "too much." I really have no idea how much it would take to get him. But I know I'd, at least, be willing to give up that much. Probably more.

[Big Dakota]

That's the big problem though. He isn't healthy that often. Not healthy enough anyway.



Agreed.

If you aquire him you have to hope his injuries were just bad luck. He's missed 9 games in his first 4 years. Michael Irvin missed 16 games his first 4 years.

[MichaelWinicki]

#28 and our 2nd rounder.


I'm glad you're not our GM.

[Sarge]

I think the guy is "worth" a top 5 pick if you're getting him at age 26 with a long-term contract. Our 2nd round pick isn't worth much because it's so late. Same for our 1st. No one would in their right mind trade a top 5 pick for our 1st and 2nd. So, if we can get him with that and give him the contract, it'd be a steal in that sense.

Now, it may not take that much to get him, so it might be "too much." I really have no idea how much it would take to get him. But I know I'd, at least, be willing to give up that much. Probably more.

So, semantics aside - are you saying you'd be willing to grab him for #28 and our 2nd round pick? That is my point.

[theogt]

So, semantics aside - are you saying you'd be willing to grab him for #28 and our 2nd round pick? That is my point.Yes, I'd be willing to part with those picks for him, if it's what it took to get him.

[Zimmy Lives]

Our 2nd round pick and Akin Ayodele.

That's what I was thinking. No #1s!

[Cbz40]

I also think he is worth a top 5 pick. He's young, very adequate speed, and could be the go-to-guy on any team in the league. I would prefer Fitz but I would settle for Roy.

[theogt]

That's what I was thinking. No #1s!Let me ask you a question. Who in this draft would you take over Roy Williams? And would any of those players be available with our #1?

[bbgun]

Give me Laveranues Coles instead. Much cheaper.

[theogt]

Give me Laveranues Coles instead. Much cheaper.You get what you pay for.

[bbgun]

You get what you pay for.

What I'm "purchasing" is a solid #2 guy. He's dinged every now and then, but so is Williams.

[Zimmy Lives]

Let me ask you a question. Who in this draft would you take over Roy Williams? And would any of those players be available with our #1?

I do believe he is worth a 1st round pick, without a doubt. I'm just not willing to part with one. :p:

Jerry might feel otherwise.

[slick325]

If they bite on a 2nd and 6th, I'd pull the trigger in a second.

If not, I'd give up the #29 pick. This would address the WR need with a 27yr. old former Pro Bowler, big enough and fast enough to beat one on one coverage and may demand a double team. (Witten would be the luckiest TE on Earth if that occurred).

The reason I would give up #29 so easily is: 1) Dallas is not going to get a receiver at that pick that will be better than Roy Williams in 2008; 2) having hopefully drafted a CB at #22, there would be no need to pick a RB in the 1st in light of Dallas locking up MBIII long term as the starter (this draft is deep in RB's and Dallas can get one as a compliment in rounds two, three or four; and 3) in light of our recent luck with trading out of the 1st for future 1st round picks, I deal this pick for something tangible come April.

[Sarge]

Yes, I'd be willing to part with those picks for him, if it's what it took to get him.

OK - fair enough..............wow.....

[Sarge]

I also think he is worth a top 5 pick. He's young, very adequate speed, and could be the go-to-guy on any team in the league. I would prefer Fitz but I would settle for Roy.

Not for #28 and our second though............no way............IMO.

[theogt]

What I'm "purchasing" is a solid #2 guy. He's dinged every now and then, but so is Williams.Yeah, I don't understand that. We need a "better than solid" #2 who can be a #1 in a year or three.

OK - fair enough..............wow.....

Not for #28 and our second though............no way............IMO.Who on earth in this draft would you want at #28 that will certainly be better than the Roy Williams?

[Cbz40]

I would prefer a player that can and will help us now...it usually takes a rookie WR a couple of seasons to get acclimated to the NFL.

[MichaelWinicki]

I like Roy Williams but I'm not big on spending a 1st.

What we need on offense is a speed reciever like Stallworth or Berrian. I'd go that route first without having to cough up a draft pick.

[theogt]

I like Roy Williams but I'm not big on spending a 1st.

What we need on offense is a speed reciever like Stallworth or Berrian. I'd go that route first without having to cough up a draft pick.Williams ran a 4.36.

[MichaelWinicki]

Williams ran a 4.36.


Hey, I think the guy is a wonderful WR. But this offense doesn't need a wonderful WR... not in '08.

Give me a speed guy and let us use our firsts elsewhere and I'm a happy camper.

Now if we only had to give up a 2nd then I'm interested.

[slick325]

I would prefer a player that can and will help us now...it usually takes a rookie WR a couple of seasons to get acclimated to the NFL.

My thoughts exactly Cbz. Especially since Dallas is so close to being a Super Bowl team. If Dallas is to address the WR position I would much rather get a guy acclimated to the league and who has proven he can play at a high level. As opposed to going into next season with T.O., Crayton at #2 again, a ? in Stanbach at #3 or Hurd at #3 again, a rookie at #3 or #4 behind Crayton or Stanbach.

That's a recipe for disaster and I think Jerry knows it based on how the offense bogged down late in the season when the WR's opposite T.O. couldn't make teams pay for one on one coverage.

[theogt]

Hey, I think the guy is a wonderful WR. But this offense doesn't need a wonderful WR... not in '08.

Give me a speed guy and let us use our firsts elsewhere and I'm a happy camper.

Now if we only had to give up a 2nd then I'm interested.For the future, this team has two huge needs -- WR and CB. We can spend #22 on a corner and #28 on a WR. There's no real downside here. There's maybe 2-3 players in this draft that have more potential than RW, and we don't have a shot at them.

[Cbz40]

My thoughts exactly Cbz. Especially since Dallas is so close to being a Super Bowl team. If Dallas is to address the WR position I would much rather get a guy acclimated to the league and who has proven he can play at a high level. As opposed to going into next season with T.O., Crayton at #2 again, a ? in Stanbach at #3 or Hurd at #3 again, a rookie at #3 or #4 behind Crayton or Stanbach.

That's a recipe for disaster and I think Jerry knows it based on how the offense bogged down late in the season when the WR's opposite T.O. couldn't make teams pay for one on one coverage.

Your post is right on. ;)

[Rack Bauer]

I think the guy is "worth" a top 5 pick if you're getting him at age 26 with a long-term contract. Our 2nd round pick isn't worth much because it's so late. Same for our 1st. No one would in their right mind trade a top 5 pick for our 1st and 2nd. So, if we can get him with that and give him the contract, it'd be a steal in that sense.

Now, it may not take that much to get him, so it might be "too much." I really have no idea how much it would take to get him. But I know I'd, at least, be willing to give up that much. Probably more.

No way is he "worth" a top 5 pick. If he were, not even Matt Millen is dumb enough to get rid of a veteran that is "worth" a top 5 pick.

Ok well maybe Millen is, but still not likely.

I MIGHT be willing to trade #28, but not 28 AND our 2nd.


If you aquire him you have to hope his injuries were just bad luck. He's missed 9 games in his first 4 years. Michael Irvin missed 16 games his first 4 years.

True, but Irvin didn't have a history of "nagging" injuries coming into the NFL (that I know of). ANd he suffered on "Big" injury early on, not a series of "small" injuries.

If he had missed those games cuz of one injury but was fine other then that I wouldn't even think twice about it, but he's had several "small" injuries that have kept him out.

Still, I might be willing to trade #28, but not 28 and a 2nd.

[Chuck 54]

I don't think any team in the league would give a #1 for him, but I could be wrong. He hasn't done much special in the league so far due to injuries.

I certainly wouldn't give up a #1 when he's a home boy and would probably sign with us in FA in another year anyway. He's not as good as Calvin Johnson, so that makes him a #2 in Detroit...at best. You can talk all you want about his talent, but I think he can be had for much less than a #1 pick.

He's had 4 NFL seasons and only 1 complete season, playing only 12 games this year...only 1 1000 yard season. He's a guy I'd love to have in Dallas, but I'd be hesitant to give up a #1 pick for a guy with his NFL history so far.

[theogt]

No way is he "worth" a top 5 pick. If he were, not even Matt Millen is dumb enough to get rid of a veteran that is "worth" a top 5 pick.

Ok well maybe Millen is, but still not likely.

I MIGHT be willing to trade #28, but not 28 AND our 2nd.He would be willing to let him go because he knows he can't keep him past '08 and he would want to get something, however little, out of him.

[slick325]

Your post is right on. ;)

I thank you old wise one. Or shall I say Grand Poobah?

[Rack Bauer]

He would be willing to let him go because he knows he can't keep him past '08 and he would want to get something, however little, out of him.

Fair enough, but only #28, not 28 and a 2nd. :D

[Cbz40]

I thank you old wise one. Or shall I say Grand Poobah?

Pops would be sufficient...or You old Fart......Heck, I don't care...:D

[zrinkill]

I would give #28 for Williams ..... I would give #22 for Fitz

[slick325]

Pops would be sufficient...or You old Fart......Heck, I don't care...:D

LOL! I gothca Pops.

[Billy Bullocks]

Williams, besides missing some games, has showed that he is more than capable of being a WR at this level.

I dunno what the situation with Terry Glenn is, but we need to get someone better than Crayton in their as the #2.

WRs take longer to acclimate to the NFL, so it makes sense to get a WR who is already up to speed instead of breaking in a rookie.

If this team really is only a few more pieces away, aka another WR, and a CB, I would trade the #29 real quick.

[MichaelWinicki]

I don't think any team in the league would give a #1 for him, but I could be wrong. He hasn't done much special in the league so far due to injuries.

I certainly wouldn't give up a #1 when he's a home boy and would probably sign with us in FA in another year anyway. He's not as good as Calvin Johnson, so that makes him a #2 in Detroit...at best. You can talk all you want about his talent, but I think he can be had for much less than a #1 pick.

He's had 4 NFL seasons and only 1 complete season, playing only 12 games this year...only 1 1000 yard season. He's a guy I'd love to have in Dallas, but I'd be hesitant to give up a #1 pick for a guy with his NFL history so far.


Damn Wayne.

You laid some "fact" down on some folks. :)

[Sarge]

I don't think any team in the league would give a #1 for him, but I could be wrong. He hasn't done much special in the league so far due to injuries.

I certainly wouldn't give up a #1 when he's a home boy and would probably sign with us in FA in another year anyway. He's not as good as Calvin Johnson, so that makes him a #2 in Detroit...at best. You can talk all you want about his talent, but I think he can be had for much less than a #1 pick.

He's had 4 NFL seasons and only 1 complete season, playing only 12 games this year...only 1 1000 yard season. He's a guy I'd love to have in Dallas, but I'd be hesitant to give up a #1 pick for a guy with his NFL history so far.

Bingo - nice post Wayno. Why one would gamble on grabbing the guy for our #28 and second rounder is questionable to say the least......;)

[CrazyCowboy]

Give a 1st rd for Fitz......

[zack]

Give a 1st rd for Fitz......

Give them a 3rd pick. Roy Williams doesn't have any break away speed. He is another TE in my opinion. And he is just a weird guy altogether.

[theogt]

Bingo - nice post Wayno. Why one would gamble on grabbing the guy for our #28 and second rounder is questionable to say the least......;)Right, because we just know that players at those draft positions can come in and put up the production that he can. That would be the "safe" decision. :rolleyes:

Please, it's insanely stupid to not at least give up a #28 for him.

Give them a 3rd pick. Roy Williams doesn't have any break away speed. He is another TE in my opinion. And he is just a weird guy altogether.Oh, sorry, this is a thread about the receiver. Not the safety.

[Sarge]

Right, because we just know that players at those draft positions can come in and put up the production that he can. That would be the "safe" decision. :rolleyes:

Please, it's insanely stupid to not at least give up a #28 for him.

Giving up a #28 for him is COMPLETELY different than giving up a #28 and a second rounder for him......at least I thought it was.............:rolleyes:

[MichaelWinicki]

Giving up a #28 for him is COMPLETELY different than giving up a #28 and a second rounder for him......at least I thought it was.............:rolleyes:


Sarge, you have to consider that Theogt has become discombobulated due to that severe body shot that Wayne gave him...

It's going to take time for him to think rationally again. :D

[Sarge]

Sarge, you have to consider that Theogt has become discombobulated due that severe body shot that Wayne gave him...

It's going to take time for him to think rationally again. :D

.........I see that..............:laugh2:

;)

[theogt]

Sarge, you have to consider that Theogt has become discombobulated due that severe body shot that Wayne gave him...

It's going to take time for him to think rationally again. :DLet me summarize his post because it's apparent that you couldn't read it thoroughly:

"He's missed a few games and has only had one 1000 yard season."

Shocking. I had no idea. It's already been pointed out that Michael Irvin missed more games in his first 4 seasons than Roy.

[Bob Sacamano]

Right, because we just know that players at those draft positions can come in and put up the production that he can. That would be the "safe" decision. :rolleyes:

Please, it's insanely stupid to not at least give up a #28 for him.

Oh, sorry, this is a thread about the receiver. Not the safety.

the at least scenario should be a 2nd round pick

I'd give up a 1st round pick, if it's a 2nd too, they'd have to throw a good special team's guy into the mix

[MichaelWinicki]

Let me summarize his post because it's apparent that you couldn't read it thoroughly:

"He's missed a few games and has only had one 1000 yard season."

Shocking. I had no idea. It's already been pointed out that Michael Irvin missed more games in his first 4 seasons than Roy.


You're cute when you're angry. :)

[Cbz40]

Well my way of thinking is this....we are a team that is real close to being in the big dance and winning it. ^he last time we were tis close JJ & JJ went out and bought Haley which put us over the top.

Now lay all the smack down on me you want..I give a rats..behind:), at this point in time you need a player or that will come in and be an impact... NOW!!!! not sit on the bench and run wind sprints, watch film, draw plays on a chalk board for two years.

Hell whether he's worth a top five or a 28th pick plus a second round draft choice as far as I am concerned is moot. Give Tony another weapon.

Plus let's draft a psychiatrist to tell us what the hell is wrong w/this team in December and the playoffs.

[Sarge]

the at least scenario should be a 2nd round pick

I'd give up a 1st round pick, if it's a 2nd too, they'd have to throw a good special team's guy into the mix

The question is whether you'd throw #28 and our second for him......?

[theogt]

Over their first 4 seasons...

Michael Irvin (Games - Yards)
14 - 654
6 - 378
12 - 413
16 - 1523

Total Games - 48
Total Yards - 2968
Yards Per Game - 61.83

Roy Williams (Games - Yards)
12 - 817
16 - 687
13 - 1310
14 - 838

Total Games - 55
Total Yards - 3652
Yards Per Game - 66.4

[Sarge]

Give me Laveranues Coles instead. Much cheaper.

L. Coles for a 1st or second rounder??????????

[Bob Sacamano]

The question is whether you'd throw #28 and our second for him......?

it's 29 btw

and I would only do the 1st round pick, I definitely wouldn't start the bidding at a 1st round pick though

[theogt]

it's 29 btw

and I would only do the 1st round pick, I definitely wouldn't start the bidding at a 1st round pick thoughPssst. It's 28 (http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1919361&postcount=87).

Unless NFL.com is wrong.

[Sarge]

it's 29 btw

and I would only do the 1st round pick, I definitely wouldn't start the bidding at a 1st round pick though

Uh........no - it'd be 28..........btw.

[Bob Sacamano]

Pssst. It's 28 (http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1919361&postcount=87).

Unless NFL.com is wrong.

no, some posters were

when I left yesterday, the consensus was that we got the 29th pick

[Bob Sacamano]

Uh........no - it'd be 28..........btw.

bite.........................me

uh............uh.................

[windward]

the at least scenario should be a 2nd round pick

I'd give up a 1st round pick, if it's a 2nd too, they'd have to throw a good special team's guy into the mix
I'm gonna agree with Bobbo here.

[slick325]

The question is whether you'd throw #28 and our second for him......?

No way I trade a 1st AND a 2nd for him.

[Sarge]

No way I trade a 1st AND a 2nd for him.

...most sane people would agree with you.............;)

[Hoofbite]

Might be able to just give up the 2nd rounder. We could argue that if they thought he was worth a first, why are they trading him?

Oooh, going straight to the Mickey Spagnola route.

[theogt]

...most sane people would agree with you.............;)If we had the 8th pick in the draft, would you trade it for him?

[Yakuza Rich]

This is sort of a tough one, but I don't think I'd want to give up more than a 2nd rounder. Roy has had troubles in Detroit which have little to do with Millen and that's why the Lions want to get rid of him. I really question his work ethic and toughness, and if he's a good teammate. I really think we're better off taking guys like this and "painting them into a corner" like Dallas did with Tank. So, I'm leery of giving up a draft pick for Williams.




YAKUZA

[Bob Sacamano]

If we had the 8th pick in the draft, would you trade it for him?

I see what you did there

[Sarge]

If we had the 8th pick in the draft, would you trade it for him?

Kinda depends on who's sittin' there when we're pickin' at #8..

[ThreeSportStar80]

Our 2nd round pick and Akin Ayodele.

Yeah I'd look to replace Ayodele with a guy like Rivers out of USC...

[bbgun]

L. Coles for a 1st or second rounder??????????

Neither. Which is why I said he'd come "cheaper" than Williams.

[Bob Sacamano]

Yeah I'd look to replace Ayodele with a guy like Rivers out of USC...

or Tavares Gooden, or Shawn Crable, or Bruce Davis

[Bob Sacamano]

Kinda depends on who's sittin' there when we're pickin' at #8..

we would like an answer to that please...

[Chocolate Lab]

Hey, we can't trade a first for Roy... We need both of those for McFadden. :mad:

[wileedog]

Give me Laveranues Coles instead. Much cheaper.

That's not bad thinking. He is a solid replacement for Glenn.

[windward]

That's not bad thinking. He is a solid replacement for Glenn.
depending on the price I could go for Coles. He is 30, though and not the youthful prospect Williams is.

[Bob Sacamano]

depending on the price I could go for Coles. He is 30, though and not the youthful prospect Williams is.

Schmitt in the 3rd seems like such a waste

[theogt]

Kinda depends on who's sittin' there when we're pickin' at #8..You should know by now who all will potentially be sitting there at #8.

[DaBoyz73]

it's 29 btw

and I would only do the 1st round pick, I definitely wouldn't start the bidding at a 1st round pick though

Correction 28

[Bob Sacamano]

Correction 28

yes, I've been so advised

good lookin' out though

[DaBoyz73]

yes, I've been so advised

good lookin' out though

No problem, since the G Men are going to the show everyone moved up one spot.

[kmd24]

He's had 4 NFL seasons and only 1 complete season, playing only 12 games this year...only 1 1000 yard season. He's a guy I'd love to have in Dallas, but I'd be hesitant to give up a #1 pick for a guy with his NFL history so far.

Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin are just about the only receivers drafted in the last 6-7 years that have been more productive than RW over the first four years of their careers. Many elite receivers posted similar stats to RW early on in their careers, including TO, Reggie Wayne, and Chad Johnson.

The Randy Mosses and Torry Holts of the league are very rare. It's pretty obvious that Dallas needs a starting receiver, and looking for one in the draft is not going to help in 2008.

[DaBoyz73]

Schmitt in the 3rd seems like such a waste

Are you happy with Hoyte?

[Bob Sacamano]

Are you happy with Hoyte?

yes

and believe Deon Anderson has alot of potential for us

[ThreeSportStar80]

or Tavares Gooden, or Shawn Crable, or Bruce Davis

Oh ok...

[Rack Bauer]

Well my way of thinking is this....we are a team that is real close to being in the big dance and winning it. ^he last time we were tis close JJ & JJ went out and bought Haley which put us over the top.


This is incorrect. You're only remembering the time it worked. The last time we were this close we went out and traded 2 firsts for Joey Galloway.

It didn't work out.

Over their first 4 seasons...

Michael Irvin (Games - Yards)
14 - 654
6 - 378
12 - 413
16 - 1523

Total Games - 48
Total Yards - 2968
Yards Per Game - 61.83

Roy Williams (Games - Yards)
12 - 817
16 - 687
13 - 1310
14 - 838

Total Games - 55
Total Yards - 3652
Yards Per Game - 66.4


Those comparisons mean nothing as they come from two different eras of the game. Back then DBs could still cover downfield, safeties could still knock WRs out, and DL could still hit the QB.

I'm sorry, but if Irvin started his career at the same time Roy started his, Irvin's numbers would BLOW Roy's numbers out of the water, even with less games played.

[DaBoyz73]

yes

and believe Deon Anderson has alot of potential for us

I saw Owen on the NFLNetwork today and he looks big.

[ThreeSportStar80]

yes

and believe Deon Anderson has alot of potential for us

Deon "Cricket" Anderson is going to be the starting full back for Dallas next year...

[theogt]

I'm sorry, but if Irvin started his career at the same time Roy started his, Irvin's numbers would BLOW Roy's numbers out of the water, even with less games played.Probably not.

Corners today are leaps and bounds more athletic than they were in Irvin's first 4 years, so it would be easier for them today to cover a slower, smaller receiver such as Irvin. And Irvin was also allowed to be more physical then, than he would be now. The passing game is favored more today than in the past, but you can hardly say that a player from the past would succeed more in today's game, than in the past.

[slick325]

Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin are just about the only receivers drafted in the last 6-7 years that have been more productive than RW over the first four years of their careers. Many elite receivers posted similar stats to RW early on in their careers, including TO, Reggie Wayne, and Chad Johnson.

The Randy Mosses and Torry Holts of the league are very rare. It's pretty obvious that Dallas needs a starting receiver, and looking for one in the draft is not going to help in 2008.

Very good post.

[Rack Bauer]

Probably not.

Corners today are leaps and bounds more athletic than they were in Irvin's first 4 years, so it would be easier for them today to cover a slower, smaller receiver such as Irvin. And Irvin was also allowed to be more physical then, than he would be now. The passing game is favored more today than in the past, but you can hardly say that a player from the past would succeed more in today's game, than in the past.

That is a giant load of CRAP and you know it.


I guess they'd be able to cover Jerry Rice too. :rolleyes:


YEah that makes sense, all these rules making it EASIER for WRs in todays NFL, yet it would have been HARDER for Irvin to make plays.

My gawd Theo, sometimes you say the dumbest freakin' crap.

[theogt]

That is a giant load of CRAP and you know it.


I guess they'd be able to cover Jerry Rice too. :rolleyes:


YEah that makes sense, all these rules making it EASIER for WRs in todays NFL, yet it would have been HARDER for Irvin to make plays.

My gawd Theo, sometimes you say the dumbest freakin' crap.No, I don't think that if you put Jerry Rice in his rookie season in the NFL in 2008, that his stats would be much better. I think they'd likely be worse. This is just part of the problem of cross-comparing eras.

[Nors]

Roy Williams and cash

[Beast_from_East]

...most sane people would agree with you.............;)

Beast agrees with Sarge, it would be dumb to trade a 1st AND 2nd for Roy Williams.

I would love to have the guy, but dam lets not get crazy here. He is going to be a free agent after the 08 season, correct?

Then why trade multiple picks when we can wait till next year and sign him for nothing. Give me a half-decent corner and a quick, fast change-up back to rotate with MB3 and I am happy.:D

[slick325]

I didn't realize that Roy Williams averages 15 yds/catch. That's similar to Terry Glenn's 14.9 yds/catch over his career. Roy must have some deep threat capability.

I would no doubt consider the Dallas 1st rounder for him or Dallas' 2nd rounder plus a 6th.

[Beast_from_East]

Kinda depends on who's sittin' there when we're pickin' at #8..

Trade a top 10 pick for a player you can sign next year for nothing?

WOW:bang2:

[Billy Bullocks]

No, I don't think that if you put Jerry Rice in his rookie season in the NFL in 2008, that his stats would be much better. I think they'd likely be worse. This is just part of the problem of cross-comparing eras.



























You do realize that at the age of 39, Rice had 83 catches for 1139 yards, and at 40 he put up 92 catches for 1211 yards.

So after he had "lost a step" and was playing against these superior corners he still put up great numbers.

[Beast_from_East]

Hey, we can't trade a first for Roy... We need both of those for McFadden. :mad:
:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

[Bob Sacamano]

You do realize that at the age of 39, Rice had 83 catches for 1139 yards, and at 40 he put up 92 catches for 1211 yards.

So after he had "lost a step" and was playing against these superior corners he still put up great numbers.

more like 2 steps lol

[windward]

more like 2 steps lol
Good point about Schmitt. He just seems so tempting. If we go with Cricket then so be it.

[gimmesix]

Bring in Roy Williams and Shaun Rogers by trading the No. 28 pick and our fifth-rounder to Detroit.

Take a CB with pick No. 22.

Trade Jason Ferguson, Terry Glenn and Anthony Fasano to Miami to swap positions in the second and third rounds. Take RB Felix Jones in second and FB Peyton Hillis/Owen Schmidt in third.

That's all. ;)

[Bob Sacamano]

mod is looking noice Rack

[Bob Sacamano]

Good point about Schmitt. He just seems so tempting. If we go with Cricket then so be it.

my draft is how you do it;) :D

[windward]

my draft is how you do it;) :D
BTW Dwight Lowery is a player. Everytime I've seen the guy play (being a WAC man and what not) he's come up big.

I'm also going to ride Rubin til the draft because he would be a nice replacement for Fergy down the road.


Ratliff Ferguson Canty
Hatcher Rubin Spears

[vlad]

I think anyone who wouldn't trade a 1st round (obviously you offer lower and see what happens) for an established young WR with tremendous upside is off their rocker. Has anyone even considered the Cowboys recent draft history with players drafted higher than th 11th pick? Come on, you can't see value if you can't see that.

So judging from last year as an example some would rather take chances on guys like Robert Meachem, Craig Davis or Anthony Gonzalez? Sure, Dwayne Bowe looks like a stud, but I'd argue it will take him a few years to reach his prime, and even then he does not have the physical upside of RW. Roy Williams already has the physical maturity, he just needs to be around a successful organization and quarterback IMHO (though I guess it doesn't sound humble :) )

This guy is in the Michael Irvin mode, big-bodied, catches with hands and body equally well (think of shielding with his body and catching a slant) and has game changing speed. I hope we do get him.

[Rack Bauer]

You do realize that at the age of 39, Rice had 83 catches for 1139 yards, and at 40 he put up 92 catches for 1211 yards.

So after he had "lost a step" and was playing against these superior corners he still put up great numbers.



Exactly.

An old "Washed up" Rice still produced good numbers against the "Superior" CBs, yet he wouldn't be any better then Roy Williams if he (RIce) Started out at the same time as Roy.

Ridiculous.

Same with Irvin. He dominated back when DBs were allowed to cover and hit, he sure as HELL would dominate today's NFL. Even moreso.

[Bob Sacamano]

BTW Dwight Lowery is a player. Everytime I've seen the guy play (being a WAC man and what not) he's come up big.

I'm also going to ride Rubin til the draft because he would be a nice replacement for Fergy down the road.


Ratliff Ferguson Canty
Hatcher Rubin Spears

I gotta check Rube out

and yeah, Lowery is a player, hope NFL people sleep on him

[theogt]

You do realize that at the age of 39, Rice had 83 catches for 1139 yards, and at 40 he put up 92 catches for 1211 yards.

So after he had "lost a step" and was playing against these superior corners he still put up great numbers.Yes, I do. I didn't say he'd suck.

[Billy Bullocks]

Yes, I do. I didn't say he'd suck.

I never said you did. But I'm pointing out that a slower, older Jerry Rice, playing against "superior" corners (who have less room to be physical than they did in Irvin's hey day) still put up great numbers.

The point was essentially to show you that Irvin would most certainly still have been a dominant force in todays NFL.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

market value for a WR is not a first much less a first plus more.

moss was traded for a 4th and welker was traded for a 2nd under odious circumstances last year.

how anyone could propose a 1st and a second after the galloway debacle at the end of the last century is beyond me.

actually who was the last player to be traded for a first anyway? draft picks are good cap values especially after the top 20 or so and as such they have more value than a veteran.

[theogt]

I never said you did. But I'm pointing out that a slower, older Jerry Rice, playing against "superior" corners (who have less room to be physical than they did in Irvin's hey day) still put up great numbers.Great numbers? They're incredibly impressive for a 39 year old, but they're not great numbers by any stretch of the imagination.

The point was essentially to show you that Irvin would most certainly still have been a dominant force in todays NFL.How on earth was it an attempt to show that?

[theogt]

moss was traded for a 4thMoss was also in his early 30s when the trade was made. Do they expect to sign him to a 6 year contract? Of course not.

and welker was traded for a 2nd under odious circumstances last year.This actually proves the point that young receivers are costly. He cost a 2nd round pick and he'd had the following seasons at the time:

2004: 0 catches for 0 yards
2005: 29 catches for 434 yards
2006: 67 catches for 687 yards

Hardly impressive. And he'll never be a #1 receiver. Yet he fetched a 2nd rounder.

how anyone could propose a 1st and a second after the galloway debacle at the end of the last century is beyond me.Giving away the #9 and #19 is quite a different situation than giving away a #28 and #60. Actually, according to the draft value charts, it'd be close to giving three #28 selections and one #60 selection. So, yeah, it's nothing alike.

[Billy Bullocks]

Great numbers? They're incredibly impressive for a 39 year old, but they're not great numbers by any stretch of the imagination.

How on earth was it an attempt to show that?

Well if a 39 year old can put up numbers like that against the type of competition you proposed is out there, it shows that a guy like Irvin would be just as dominant as he was, if not more in todays NFL. With CBs givin MUCH LESS room to play physical, a guy like Irvin would overpower most of todays DBs.

[CowboyFan74]

Well my way of thinking is this....we are a team that is real close to being in the big dance and winning it. ^he last time we were tis close JJ & JJ went out and bought Haley which put us over the top.

Now lay all the smack down on me you want..I give a rats..behind:), at this point in time you need a player or that will come in and be an impact... NOW!!!! not sit on the bench and run wind sprints, watch film, draw plays on a chalk board for two years.

Hell whether he's worth a top five or a 28th pick plus a second round draft choice as far as I am concerned is moot. Give Tony another weapon.

Plus let's draft a psychiatrist to tell us what the hell is wrong w/this team in December and the playoffs.


:hammer:

I would trade our 28th pick straight up for him, nothing more, but definitely less.:D

[theogt]

Well if a 39 year old can put up numbers like that against the type of competition you proposed is out there, it shows that a guy like Irvin would be just as dominant as he was, if not more in todays NFL.My point wasn't that he wouldn't be as dominant. But he wouldn't be significantly more dominant today, such that he'd blow away Roy Williams' numbers as to make a comparison unreasonable as Rack suggested.

[Rack Bauer]

market value for a WR is not a first much less a first plus more.

moss was traded for a 4th and welker was traded for a 2nd under odious circumstances last year.

how anyone could propose a 1st and a second after the galloway debacle at the end of the last century is beyond me.

actually who was the last player to be traded for a first anyway? draft picks are good cap values especially after the top 20 or so and as such they have more value than a veteran.

:hammer:

My point wasn't that he wouldn't be as dominant. But he wouldn't be significantly more dominant today, such that he'd blow away Roy Williams' numbers as to make a comparison unreasonable as Rack suggested.

Well your "point" is crap cuz not only would he be "as" dominant, he'd actually be MORE dominant knowing DBs wouldn't be able to touch him downfield and an already fearless Playmaker would have had a field day over the middle knowing safeties are now severely hampered with not being able to hit a "Defenseless" WR.

[CowboyFan74]

Somebody refresh my memory but wasn't Galloway a rookie when we got him? And didn't he break his leg twice? If the answer is yes to either then it's a moot point. ;)



The whole Irvin/Rice debate is also pointless because both would have to change their style in todays game regardless, but assuming they were transplanted in time to do this, giving their youth and skill I'm quite sure they would adapt. Who cares ladies...:rolleyes:

[FCBarca]

Roy Williams:D


Seriously, this trade would be perfect

[Rack Bauer]

Somebody refresh my memory but wasn't Galloway a rookie when we got him? And didn't he break his leg twice? If the answer is yes to either then it's a moot point. ;)



The whole Irvin/Rice debate is also pointless because both would have to change their style in todays game regardless, but assuming they were transplanted in time to do this, giving their youth and skill I'm quite sure they would adapt. Who cares ladies...:rolleyes:

1. No galloway wasn't a rookie.

2. Why would Irvin/Rice have to change their styles? The rules have changed to make things EASIER for WRs today, not harder. If a CB from back then were to play today HE would have to change his style, but not any of the WRs. Hell, even Alexander Wright might be worth a crap in today's NFL. Maybe.

3. Who cares? Obviously you do, Steven, or you wouldn't have replied. ;)

[CATCH17]

I'd give them either one of our 1st rounders if thats what they wanted.

[RealCowboyfan]

3rd Round and Roy Williams.....

[OldButDeadly]

What is going to drive this whole thing is what SOMEONE will be willing to give. Someone in this league will SURELY give up a 2nd for him....and maybe a first if they are desperate.

He may just not make it to next year (As some posters have pointed out that we should just wait)...

I don't like waiting....I guess I am just not the patient type....

Kev

[Romo2Dez4six]

I'd give them either one of our 1st rounders if thats what they wanted.

im with you on this one. prefer a second or higher, but if that is what they want

[CowboyJeff]

SS Roy Williams and a cheeseburger Happy Meal.

[PullMyFinger]

OMG

T.O, Roy Williams, T.Glenn(if he comes back), and Crayton?

Thats the best receiving corp in the league. Forget N.E.

[Romo2Dez4six]

SS Roy Williams and a cheeseburger Happy Meal.

as long as we get the toy:lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao:

[jterrell]

I'd give up either number 1 and a 6th to get it done but would start with offering a 2nd and 7th like the Pats did for Welker.

If they wanted a vet player they could have a number of different guys and a 2nd to 5th round pick depending on the player they wanted.

Carpenter is who I'd try to trade because he is probably worth more to them than he is to us. Big 10 country can appreciate him more than we can. Plus they like speed, finesse LBs.

[InmanRoshi]

A sure fire thing 26 year old #1 WR is worth at least a first and third round pick, given the high bust rates of WR's taken highly in the draft. The Patriots gave up a 2nd rounder for a slot WR.

I could really care less if Roy Williams is healthy for all 16 regular season games next year, just as long as he's ready to go by the playoffs.

[mr.jameswoods]

Ask yourself would you want this guy last year after he came off an amazing season in which he had 82/1310/16.0 ypc/7 TD season? He is coming off a mediocre season due to injury so this is the time to pick him up. He still played 12 games last season. He has averaged 15.0 yards per catch for his career. I would much rather have Roy Williams than Larry Fitzgerald. I know that's taboo to say on this forum but Roy is a better fit for us. Larry is a better overall receiver but he is painfully slow. Roy Williams has better big play potential and will keep a secondary honest, which will open up plays for us underneath. I would give up a late first round pick for him. If you can get a top flight receiver with a late first round pick, it's completely worth it. We waste first round picks all the time, just look at our recent history with Bobby Carpenter

Plus, you have to take the environment he is in into consideration. A lot of high draft picks have went to Detroit and only Roy Williams has really succeeded there. If he came to Dallas, he would be freed up to do a lot more damage on the field and the winning environment would motivate him to play harder

[Chocolate Lab]

I think some people don't realize how freaky athletic Roy is. Even in a league of amazing athletes, he stands out. That kind of potential is why you take a chance.

Yes, the injury thing worries me a little, but for that talent at that young an age -- especially for someone who is a good guy and solid person, unlike some of the egomaniacal drama queen WRs out there -- I definitely give a first.

And he wants to be here. This is the Bigg situation all over again.

Probably the only way I *wouldn't* do it is if you have word that he'd come here for free (draft pick-wise) the following year when he's a UFA. In that case, as much as we'd all like to see him here now, I'd wait and use that 1st to draft someone. I think we have to resist the temptation to think that we need to panic and grab for everything *right now*. We have a good young QB and no major cap problems, so our window should be open for several years.

[DawnOfANewD]

Erm, what about the whole "Williams becomes a FA after the season" thing? If he has a big year, he knows there'll be teams lining up for him and that he'll be in for a huge payday. We'll just end up one of the many suitors for him because he's not going to immediately agree to a new contract during the season or after the season is over.

I'd rather draft or sign a FA WR rather than give up a pick or two for one given the quality of the pick(s) we'd have to give up.

[ABQCOWBOY]

A few things stand out to me in a discussion about Roy Williams. The first is that he has been very productive in a bad system with little help. He has not played with good QBs. I, for one, believe that he has been succesful in spite of the team he plays for.

I would also say that anybody who believes that we can compare a trade for Roy Williams to that of Randy Moss is going to be disappointed. The Randy Moss trade was a steal. When he was traded, I said that we should have given up a 2nd for him. Everybody laughed, which is fine, but in retrospect I think you have to say that he would have been worth a 2nd. Because of the production Moss has provided, any trade for a 4th is going to be out of the question IMO.

It has been pointed out but I think it's worth saying again. If you look at what our offense looks like now, and then you project a player like Williams into this offense, who is going to have the size or skill level on the defensive side of the football to match up with Owens, Roy Williams, Witten and Crayton as our third (not to mention Glenn should he come back)? The size factor alone is going to create huge match up problems for anybody. You can almost bank on the fact that nobody is going to play 8 men in the box because they can't afford to take the risk. That lineup creates huge match up problems for any team in the NFL.

Lastly, I think that you have to be aware of the fact that other teams are going to bid on Williams. We will not be the only interested party, assuming we get involved. It may take a 1st but, I'd say that his worth is probably a high second. Williams still has to be signed by any team that trades for him. I think the chances of us signing him are better then just about any other team. Having said that, we would still have to get a trade done. IMO, a fair deal would be our 28 for Williams and Detroits 3rd. To me, the is equitable for both teams.

I am in favor of trading for this player. I would do a deal like that if given the opportunity.

[Billy Bullocks]

Are you really going to get a better player for a 1st rounder than Williams? I don't think you will. There's a chance you could find one at WR, but he will take a few years to develope.

Pull the trigger now, get Williams, and make a run at the SB.

[ddh33]

If you're running this franchise and thinking about short-term and long-term, I think this is something to pursue.

Short-term, you defintitely want an upgrade at receiver. You probably are losing Terry Glenn. You want some speed and big-play ability. You are a Super Bowl contender, and you might not want to rely on a rookie making those big plays, especially when you consider that wide receivers are known to bust more frequently than many positions.

Long term, Terrell Owens is your clear #1 receiver. His body is his temple, and he stays in great shape, but he is also aging. Your star quarterback is young and deserves to have the same kind of weapons as other elite QBs. You'd like someone who can not only compliment TO now but who could also replace some of his production in the coming years.

I know that I would feel a little better about all of it with someone who has proven as much as Roy Williams has and wants so badly to be a Cowboy.

[mr.jameswoods]

I think some people don't realize how freaky athletic Roy is. Even in a league of amazing athletes, he stands out. That kind of potential is why you take a chance.

Yes, the injury thing worries me a little, but for that talent at that young an age -- especially for someone who is a good guy and solid person, unlike some of the egomaniacal drama queen WRs out there -- I definitely give a first.

And he wants to be here. This is the Bigg situation all over again.

Probably the only way I *wouldn't* do it is if you have word that he'd come here for free (draft pick-wise) the following year when he's a UFA. In that case, as much as we'd all like to see him here now, I'd wait and use that 1st to draft someone. I think we have to resist the temptation to think that we need to panic and grab for everything *right now*. We have a good young QB and no major cap problems, so our window should be open for several years.

Agreed but you don't place all your eggs in one basket. Not only should we get Roy Williams but another receiver too. The Patriots picked up 3 receivers this offseason.

[Nexx]

Are you really going to get a better player for a 1st rounder than Williams? I don't think you will. There's a chance you could find one at WR, but he will take a few years to develope.

Pull the trigger now, get Williams, and make a run at the SB.

+1, if we were honestly gonna use a 1st on a wideout and the lions are willing to part with roy for a 1st, you arent gonna get a better wr at 22 than roy. and even better if they will take our 28th.

[mr.jameswoods]

I think some people don't realize how freaky athletic Roy is. Even in a league of amazing athletes, he stands out. That kind of potential is why you take a chance.

I want to add to your comment. Look at this guys weight! Most guys as fast as Roy Williams don't weigh anywhere near 220 lbs. Larry Fitzgerald is 6'3 and listed at 226 lbs and is considered a physical possession type. Roy Williams is thought of as a burner This guys is extremely fast and powerful.

[ddh33]

Just watch his 95 yard touchdown from earlier this season. The guy is a monster.

[Bob Sacamano]

if we could trade the 28th pick for Roy, and use the 22nd pick on Leodis

man, what a offseason

[slick325]

Agreed but you don't place all your eggs in one basket. Not only should we get Roy Williams but another receiver too. The Patriots picked up 3 receivers this offseason.

I'm not sure Dallas will pick up more than one WR this offseason. The reasons being: 1) Dallas doesn't run a great deal of 4 wide sets because of their Pro Bowl TE; 2) Dallas just paid Crayton and are looking to possibly extend T.O., so that occupies two known roster spots at WR; and 3) The organization was high on Stanbach and liked him enough to use a 4th on him despite his foot injury that would turn his first season into a "redshirt" year.

That means Dallas has three WR's set on the roster barring some freak disaster. If they carry 5 WR's like they normally do, one of the two remaining slots has to go to a special teams guy. IMO, that means Austin can make the squad instead of Hurd. The remaining spot would have to go to a guy who is either ready to be the #2 WR right now and future #1 (see: Roy Williams or Larry Fitzgerald) or a rookie who will compete with Stanbach for the #3 spot or possibly push Crayton at #2.

As I have stated previously, if I am the GM I offer Detriot a 2nd and 6th for Roy Williams and if that isn't enough (shouldn't be if a 2nd and 7th was traded for a lesser commodity in Wes Welker) I offer pick #28. Problem solved at WR.

[Nexx]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H37NpIpny60

just watch this video. he big, tall wr, who is very fast, quick and runs with long strides. looks very similar to another wideout thats already on the roster. roy runs with an attitude once has the ball, like he thinks its his right to take it to the house everytime. i love this guy.

[slick325]

if we could trade the 28th pick for Roy, and use the 22nd pick on Leodis

man, what a offseason

McKelvin or Talib plus Roy Williams out of the 1st round picks would be great!

Add to that: re-signing Hamlin and Flo; getting T.O. to sign an extension; longterm deals for MBIII and Canty; keeping the exclusive rights free agents and all the restricted free agents except Tyson Thompson.

What an offseason indeed!

[CowboyFan74]

2. Why would Irvin/Rice have to change their styles?




Well for one Irvin was the master of pushing off and now he'd be called for that. That's all I got but I'm sure I'm missing something:D

[Billy Bullocks]

+1, if we were honestly gonna use a 1st on a wideout and the lions are willing to part with roy for a 1st, you arent gonna get a better wr at 22 than roy. and even better if they will take our 28th.

Exactly. He is a freakish athlete.

And it's not like this guy is 30. He's like 26 or 27. That's pretty damn young. So you're giving up a 1st round pick for a WR that has passed the early learning curve.

Chances are if you draft a WR in the 1st round, he wont become productive for at least 2seasons. Might as well just grab Williams now.

[Bob Sacamano]

McKelvin or Talib plus Roy Williams out of the 1st round picks would be great!

Add to that: re-signing Hamlin and Flo; getting T.O. to sign an extension; longterm deals for MBIII and Canty; keeping the exclusive rights free agents and all the restricted free agents except Tyson Thompson.

What an offseason indeed!

:hammer: amen, brotha

[CoCo]

Go review the first round picks of recent drafts and you'll understand that even the first round of the draft is a very risky proposition.

I think we also need to consider the fact that the depth on our team is getting to a point that draft picks (not saying 1st's or 2nd's) will have a more difficult time making this squad.

I'm not suggesting we dramatically swing the pendulum but with a deep talented roster you can afford the risk of targeting players a bit more whether that be packaging a deal for Roy Williams or a specific player in the draft.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Moss was also in his early 30s when the trade was made. Do they expect to sign him to a 6 year contract? Of course not.

This actually proves the point that young receivers are costly. He cost a 2nd round pick and he'd had the following seasons at the time:

2004: 0 catches for 0 yards
2005: 29 catches for 434 yards
2006: 67 catches for 687 yards

Hardly impressive. And he'll never be a #1 receiver. Yet he fetched a 2nd rounder.

Giving away the #9 and #19 is quite a different situation than giving away a #28 and #60. Actually, according to the draft value charts, it'd be close to giving three #28 selections and one #60 selection. So, yeah, it's nothing alike.

At the time, we were expecting that those picks would be low picks not for us to tank like that. What your doing is termed revisionist history but again what was the last player traded for a first round draft choice?

Actually it was two years ago when Deion Branch was traded to the Seahawks for a single first coming off a career year. It was considered an overpay at the time.

But really the kind of trade you are proposing would be a Daniel Snyder move. who trades away hordes of draft picks for questionable talent.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Are you really going to get a better player for a 1st rounder than Williams? I don't think you will. There's a chance you could find one at WR, but he will take a few years to develope.

Pull the trigger now, get Williams, and make a run at the SB.

You wouldnt hvae to pay the palyer nearly as much. The value in the draft is economic as well as talent.

You get to sign a player a t a discount price for upwards of 6 years. Oh and i just looked it up, Williams' contract is up next year. We would trade a first for a year rental of a talented guy with an injury history.

That would be utter stupidity.

[CATCH17]

Well for one Irvin was the master of pushing off and now he'd be called for that. That's all I got but I'm sure I'm missing something:D


Honestly with these rules he wouldn't need to push off.

[Chocolate Lab]

You get to sign a player a t a discount price for upwards of 6 years. Oh and i just looked it up, Williams' contract is up next year. We would trade a first for a year rental of a talented guy with an injury history.

That would be utter stupidity.
You wouldn't do it if you hadn't already agreed with him on a longer-term deal.

[Sam I Am]

As I noted in the other thread.

Trade, Carpenter, Spears, Roy Williams (SS) and a 3rd round pick to Detriot for Roy Williams (WR) and their 15th overall pick in the first round producing three first round picks this year.

15th overall pick 22nd overall pick 29th overall pick

The problem is we eat around $6-7M next season against the cap because of Roy Williams (SS). The upside is releasing Terry Glenn plus Roy Williams' (WR) base salary for 2008 is $574,500 would shed a lot of that dead money from Roy Williams' (SS) contract.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You wouldn't do it if you hadn't already agreed with him on a longer-term deal.

Be that as it may it still reduces the value of the player. DETROIT HAS NO LEVERAGE yet so many of you are just willing to give up the farm.

Williams contract runs out next year and everything I have read points to him not coming back and hes from Texas. The Pats got Moss for a fourth in similar circumstances yet we have proposals for firsts and seconds and the like.

Its dumb.

[Sam I Am]

Be that as it may it still reduces the value of the player. DETROIT HAS NO LEVERAGE yet so many of you are just willing to give up the farm.

Williams contract runs out next year and everything I have read points to him not coming back and hes from Texas. The Pats got Moss for a fourth in similar circumstances yet we have proposals for firsts and seconds and the like.

Its dumb.

Ok, how about Spears, Carpenter, and Roy Williams (S) for Roy Williams (WR) and the 15th overall pick? :laugh2:

Thats three 1st rounders for two first rounders.

[Chocolate Lab]

The Moss for a 4th trade was a freaky, fluke thing. He'd quit on his previous team, was rumored to have lost some speed, and had a horrible reputation at the time. You can't judge future trades off that, or no WR will ever get traded again.

And Detroit does have a little leverage -- other teams who would bid against each other.

I said in my post that if I'd heard somehow that he would definitely come here after next year when his deal was up, I wouldn't trade for him either. But sometimes you hear about these stories of players wanting to be back home, and it never happens. Money > home most of the time.

[khiladi]

Honestly with these rules he wouldn't need to push off.

Irvin would eat the zone coverage alive. Nobody ran routes better than he did, nobody shielded the ball better than he did. With all the cushion they are giving to WRs these days, Irvin would get a first down everytime it was throw to him...

[ABQCOWBOY]

Irvin would eat the zone coverage alive. Nobody ran routes better than he did, nobody shielded the ball better than he did. With all the cushion they are giving to WRs these days, Irvin would get a first down everytime it was throw to him...


Irvin could not run away from anybody. Especially later in his career. It's true that Irvin used his body, probably better then any WR I've seen since Harold Carmichael, but he also had the advantage of playing in a timing based system and having an exceptionally accurate QB. In our offense, he would not have either of those advantages. We saw what happened to our offense when TO was out. Basically, nobody gave us 10 yards and everybody played us tight, with lots of pressure and a safety over the top. BTW, Rice ran better routes but that's just nitpicking.

[CowboyFan74]

Honestly with these rules he wouldn't need to push off.

He wouldn't be able to and in my previous statement I said he would adapt by changing his style.

[ctrous25]

2nd rounder and Bobby Carpenter should be enough there will be some teams in wanting for his services, throwing a good special teams guy might help our chances plus we really dont need Bobby

[03EBZ06]

I'd start with 2nd rounder offer and work it to our 28th pick for Roy Williams. If we immediately offer 28th pick, then they will want more. Start low and work it up rather than offering your max immediately.

[Rack Bauer]

He wouldn't be able to and in my previous statement I said he would adapt by changing his style.

He wouldn't have to change his style. At all.


And WRs still rarely get called for pushing off nowadays anyway. Just look at like half of Moss' TDs this year.

[Billy Bullocks]

You wouldnt hvae to pay the palyer nearly as much. The value in the draft is economic as well as talent.

You get to sign a player a t a discount price for upwards of 6 years. Oh and i just looked it up, Williams' contract is up next year. We would trade a first for a year rental of a talented guy with an injury history.

That would be utter stupidity.

Considering the cap has gone up, I'm pretty sure we could afford to pay Williams.

Im not too sure on the details of his contract, but I think if we traded for him, it's safe to say we would sign him to a long term deal.

The injury thing is a bit of a concern.

He's been playing in Detroit with Joey Harrington and Jon Kitna and still putting up good numbers. The guy is averaging 15 yards a catch for his career. And his potential is through the roof.

With Williams, besides the injuries, you KNOW you are getting a stud WR.
Drafting a WR is a big question mark. More economical yes, but also a much bigger risk.

If we don't try to get Boldin/Williams/Jonson or someone this year, we had better get a WR early.

I think we could get by with Owens and Crayton and a rookie for this year. But the position needs to be addressed ASAP.

I think CB, RB, and WR are our biggest needs this year, in that order. But the nice thing is you can get good value on RBs later in the draft. If we address RB in the 2nd or 3rd round, we can probably get a good rookie to step in and contribute with about 10-15 touches, which is what we need to spell Barber. I'm not a big fan of giving Barber 20-25 touches a game with the way he runs.

[Sarge]

The Moss for a 4th trade was a freaky, fluke thing. .

Exactly, that type of deal is the exception, not the rule. If you wanna land WR Roy Williams, it doesn't take 'rocket science' to realize it's going to take more than a 4th rounder. With this mentality, there never would have been one single trade league-wide since "the Herschel Walker trade."

Some people need to get real.

[CowboyFan74]

He wouldn't have to change his style. At all.


And WRs still rarely get called for pushing off nowadays anyway. Just look at like half of Moss' TDs this year.

Moss doesn't play for the Cowboys:D

and you didn't answer my question about Galloway breaking his leg twice...

[REDVOLUTION]

Fair enough, but only #28, not 28 and a 2nd. :D


That really seems like the best deal. #28 and done.

[theogt]

At the time, we were expecting that those picks would be low picks not for us to tank like that. What your doing is termed revisionist history but again what was the last player traded for a first round draft choice?Yes, I'm sure we expected both of our first round draft picks to be #28 and #60. That makes a lot of sense. Surely this didn't sound as dumb in your head as it did on screen.

Actually it was two years ago when Deion Branch was traded to the Seahawks for a single first coming off a career year. It was considered an overpay at the time.Was it? Apparently that was market value for a guy that's not considered half the receiver that Roy Williams is. Career year or not, not many thought he was a solid #1 WR. That's certainly not true of RW. So, basically, that trade says that the starting point should be a first rounder.

Over his first 4 years, Branch had 2744 yards and 15 TDs. In that same span Williams had 3652 yards and 28 TDs. That's a difference of 908 yards and 13 TDs. Yet, Branch had arguably the best QB in the game throwing to him, while Roy Williams had a couple of scrubs. Joey Harrington? LOL.

I'm glad that you keep proving my point, though. Thanks. It makes it much easier.

But really the kind of trade you are proposing would be a Daniel Snyder move. who trades away hordes of draft picks for questionable talent.Questionable talent? Yeah, if we were trading for questionable talent, you might have an argument. Roy Williams isn't questionable talent.

[Sarge]

Yes, I'm sure we expected both of our first round draft picks to be #28 and #60. .

I for one never would have predicted to have the #60 first round pick......but that's just me.

[DragonCowboy]

How about both our 1st round picks?

Last time we did that it worked so well. :D


(btw I would be willing to get RW for a 1st rounder...)

[khiladi]

Irvin could not run away from anybody. Especially later in his career.

You don't have to be fast to beat zone coverage. You need to work well in space to beat zone coverage. Irvin was all about positioning himself for the catch.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Exactly, that type of deal is the exception, not the rule. If you wanna land WR Roy Williams, it doesn't take 'rocket science' to realize it's going to take more than a 4th rounder. With this mentality, there never would have been one single trade league-wide since "the Herschel Walker trade."

Some people need to get real.

i can actually do most of the projections and rotations for what people would term 'rocket science' so spare me your assumption that you know anything. Im trying to compare it to something; you guys are just throwing out lavish amounts that have no bearing on the market.

The Moss for a 4th trade was a freaky, fluke thing. He'd quit on his previous team, was rumored to have lost some speed, and had a horrible reputation at the time. You can't judge future trades off that, or no WR will ever get traded again.

And Detroit does have a little leverage -- other teams who would bid against each other.

I said in my post that if I'd heard somehow that he would definitely come here after next year when his deal was up, I wouldn't trade for him either. But sometimes you hear about these stories of players wanting to be back home, and it never happens. Money > home most of the time.

1) Williams has had one good year since hes been in the league. Last year wasnt it as he missed 4 games and saw his YPC drop to its lowest ever. You can pretty much count on him missing at least two games and spending a signifcant time hurt.

2) People could bid on Moss as well and as such the Lions have just as much leverage as the Raiders did. Hes got an expiring contract and while Moss had 'lost' a step, Williams hasnt done anything remotely as significant as Moss has and last year he once again got hurt and took a step back. You guys make it seem like Williams is some sort of dynamo when in fact hes had one good year and it wasnt even last year. Throw on top of that Williams not having signed any sort of extension and being only 26 and Detroits prospects look even bleaker.

3) Deion Branch was traded in 2006 for a first after he had a career year where he went for 1k yards and was the superbowl MVP. That was a gross overpay and Willimas last year wasnt even that good.

4) You can get a WR like Berrian or Moss right now through FA and not have to give up a single draft pick in the process.

In the end we dont need to do this trade and if the Lions dont do this trade they are left with a WR that doesnt want to be there and will be gone next year.

In no way shape or from would I consider offering them anything more than a 3rd and I would go after Berrian first anyway.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yes, I'm sure we expected both of our first round draft picks to be #28 and #60. That makes a lot of sense. Surely this didn't sound as dumb in your head as it did on screen.

Was it? Apparently that was market value for a guy that's not considered half the receiver that Roy Williams is. Career year or not, not many thought he was a solid #1 WR. That's certainly not true of RW. So, basically, that trade says that the starting point should be a first rounder.

Over his first 4 years, Branch had 2744 yards and 15 TDs. In that same span Williams had 3652 yards and 28 TDs. That's a difference of 908 yards and 13 TDs. Yet, Branch had arguably the best QB in the game throwing to him, while Roy Williams had a couple of scrubs. Joey Harrington? LOL.

I'm glad that you keep proving my point, though. Thanks. It makes it much easier.

Questionable talent? Yeah, if we were trading for questionable talent, you might have an argument. Roy Williams isn't questionable talent.

1) A guy that takes a step back in his fourth year and has one healthy season in 4 is questionable.

2) Branch was coming off of a career year. Williams has done exactly the opposite. His major concern is his durability and least season he missed the most games of his career. This is a what have you done for me lately and lately Williams has been hurt.

Furthermore the Patriots werent in a position where Branch was talking about wanting to move to Washington state while coming up on the last year of his contract. The Pats had leverage and a guy that had performed as an elite the previous year.

The lions have a guy that is coming off yet another injury riddled year, regressed in every statistical category, and is going to walk after next season.

3) As for the actual placement of the picks you were trying to place the original Galloway trade as an expectant top 10 picks where in fact we were planning to do much better than we did. We tanked and they ended up being top ten but that was not the expectation.

It only sounds stupid when you forget the context of your original argument. This is a typical red herring from you. The bottom line is that the expectation from the Galloway trade was low first rounders and your proposal is much more in line with that then two high first round picks.

if youre going to try and descredit my intelligence then at least try and remember your argument that i am responding to.

[theogt]

1) A guy that takes a step back in his fourth year and has one healthy season in 4 is questionable.And it's been noted that other HOF receivers have missed more time than him in their first 4 seasons. So this alone isn't a big concern.

2) Branch was coming off of a career year. Williams has done exactly the opposite. His major concern is his durability and least season he missed the most games of his career. This is a what have you done for me lately and lately Williams has been hurt.

Furthermore the Patriots werent in a position where Branch was talking about wanting to move to Washington state while coming up on the last year of his contract. The Pats had leverage and a guy that had performed as an elite the previous year.

The lions have a guy that is coming off yet another injury riddled year, regressed in every statistical category, and is going to walk after next season.Career year. LOL. His "career" year was about average for Roy Williams. These guys aren't in the same echelon.

And, oh, by the way, Branch had missed more games in his first 4 years than Williams had.

Once again, the Branch trade should be viewed as a starting point. He garnered a #24. We start at #28 and go up from that.

3) As for the actual placement of the picks you were trying to place the original Galloway trade as an expectant top 10 picks where in fact we were planning to do much better than we did. We tanked and they ended up being top ten but that was not the expectation.

It only sounds stupid when you forget the context of your original argument. This is a typical red herring from you. The bottom line is that the expectation from the Galloway trade was low first rounders and your proposal is much more in line with that then two high first round picks.

if youre going to try and descredit my intelligence then at least try and remember your argument that i am responding to.Your argument was that sending them the #28 and #60 was equivalent to sending them two first round picks that ended up being #9 and #19. This argument is absolutely flippin' retarded and I'm embarrassed for you for bringing it up.

You really should just let this die.

[ZeroClub]

I think some people don't realize how freaky athletic Roy is. Even in a league of amazing athletes, he stands out. That kind of potential is why you take a chance.

Yes, the injury thing worries me a little, but for that talent at that young an age -- especially for someone who is a good guy and solid person, unlike some of the egomaniacal drama queen WRs out there -- I definitely give a first.

And he wants to be here. This is the Bigg situation all over again.

Probably the only way I *wouldn't* do it is if you have word that he'd come here for free (draft pick-wise) the following year when he's a UFA. In that case, as much as we'd all like to see him here now, I'd wait and use that 1st to draft someone. I think we have to resist the temptation to think that we need to panic and grab for everything *right now*. We have a good young QB and no major cap problems, so our window should be open for several years.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Is it really worth a 1st round draft pick just to get him a year early? That seems like a stiff price.

Maybe somebody here can provide some examples of players in the last year of their contracts who were traded for a first round draft pick. I'm not saying it hasn't happened. I honestly don't know and would be curious to find out.

[theogt]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Is it really worth a 1st round draft pick just to get him a year early? That seems like a stiff price.

Maybe somebody here can provide some examples of players in the last year of their contracts who were traded for a first round draft pick. I'm not saying it hasn't happened. I honestly don't know and would be curious to find out.While that's a good point, I'd like to be the only voice in his ear in terms of signing him to a long-term contract.

What you're paying for is getting him here for the '08 season (which could be huge) and exclusivity in negotiating with him long-term.

Deion Branch was shipped off after his 4th season.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

And it's been noted that other HOF receivers have missed more time than him in their first 4 seasons. So this alone isn't a big concern.

Career year. LOL. His "career" year was about average for Roy Williams. These guys aren't in the same echelon.

And, oh, by the way, Branch had missed more games in his first 4 years than Williams had.

You know as well as I that taking a small sample size of 'HoF WR' shows absolutely nothing. I can show you a plethora of first round WRs whos careers were scuttled to injury and I guarantee you its infintely longer than your 1 or 2 exceptions.

What Branch did in his first 4 years is immaterial and has little to no bearing on that trade. Branch had just had a career year and Williams just had a year where he took a SIGNIFICANT step back due to ONCE AGAIN being injured.

You keep on talking about things that happened 4+ years ago and ill keep talking about the status quo.

Once again, the Branch trade should be viewed as a starting point. He garnered a #24. We start at #28 and go up from that.

Actually it should be considered a bad trade. If you want a starting point look to Chris Chambers who only cost a low second, still had multiple years on his deal while having a better career and there you have your starting point.

Your argument was that sending them the #28 and #60 was equivalent to sending them two first round picks that ended up being #9 and #19. This argument is absolutely flippin' retarded and I'm embarrassed for you for bringing it up.

You really should just let this die.

No I said it was the same mindset as the Galloway trade and nothing about the specific numbers. You were the one that started the numbers thing and now continue to miss the point.

Fact of the matter is you are proposing to give up more for Williams than anyother team has for a single player since the Raiders aquired Moss in the first place (a horrid trade) or that Galloway trade which was the worst trade in Cowboys history.

[Da Hammer]

probably been mentioned plenty of times but Roy Williams and a 3rd for Roy Williams. i think ya know who would be throwing in the 3rd...

[theogt]

No I said it was the same mindset as the Galloway trade and nothing about the specific numbers. You were the one that started the numbers thing and now continue to miss the point.The comparison was remarkably dumb. Admit it and move on.

The rest of your post was just you talking in circles.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The comparison was remarkably dumb. Admit it and move on.

Oh, c'mon. An autistic 5 year old could see how dumb you're being here.

Ad hominem. Always the last bastion of those that know they have no leg to stand on.

I actually thought you were proposing to give up more than any trade other than the Galloway trade but then I looked it up and saw the Moss trade was up there as well. Both are noted as two of the stupidest trades in NFL history and now youre saying we should give up a first and a second.

Actually what was prima facia was that your original proposal was idiotic. Perhaps you should review the initail responses to your proposal.

Oh and BTW theo you wouldnt know a circular argument if it bit you inthe butt. My conclusion is not the cause of my premise. Once again you have no leg to stand on and your too childish to admit who youre arguing with might have a point. At least you had the decency to uderstand that the part about autistics was completely classless.

Im done with this your intent on a flame war is not going to work.

[theogt]

Ad hominem. Always the last bastion of those that know they have no leg to stand on.Yawn. People typically stop saying this in high school.

I actually thought you were proposing to give up more than any trade other than the Galloway trade but then I looked it up and saw the Moss trade was up there as well. Both are noted as two of the stupidest trades in NFL history and now youre saying we should give up a first and a second.

Actually what was prima facia was that your original proposal was idiotic. Perhaps you should review the initail responses to your proposal.Yes, meeting resistance at CowboysZone is a sure sign that you're wrong.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yawn. People typically stop saying this in high school.

Yes, meeting resistance at CowboysZone is a sure sign that you're wrong.

the reason why people stop saying that is because the name calling stops in high school. fact is youre resorting to insults and just like in high school it shows a lot about the insulters position.

Also youre the one talking about how it should be obvious but when its thrown back in your face you try and take this tact. Its called an internal contradiction in your argument.

I know your intelligent Theo but i swear you have to have the emotional and ego makeup of a 14 year old.

[theogt]

the reason why people stop saying that is because the name calling stops in high school. fact is youre resorting to insults and just like in high school it shows a lot about the insulters position.

Also youre the one talking about how it should be obvious but when its thrown back in your face you try and take this tact. Its called an internal contradiction in your argument.

I know your intelligent Theo but i swear you have to have the emotional and ego makeup of a 14 year old.Ha. Sure thing.

I think people also tend to figure out the difference between "your" and "you're" by high school as well.

The bottom line is that you made a ridiculous comparison and probably didn't even realize it when you did. Now, you should realize it and drop it.

[Star4Ever]

First off, comparing what the Patriots had to give up to get Moss and Welker with what we would most likely have to give up for Williams is stuipd. Moss is considerably older and has had quite a few "issues" over his career. And, who out there thought Welker was as good as he has been this year? Nobody, that's who. Prior to this year, he was just a quick little slot receiver.

Here's what I'd be willing to do.

1) Trade either of our # 1s (not both) and a # 2 or a # 3 for Fitzgerald. Not going to happen, but I'd do it in a heartbeat.

2) Trade our 28th and a 6th or 7th for Roy Williams. I wouldn't trade a # 1 AND a # 2. Might even consider a # 3, but not # 2.

We're just a piece or two away from being the most talented (and young) team in the entire league. We have to draft a top notch CB in the draft. We also have to either draft or sign a fast RB to compliment Barber. Given that we probably can't make a trade for Fitzgerald, I'd certainly settle for this. Draft the best CB available at # 22. Trade our # 28 to Detroit and get Williams. Draft one of the many very good RBs with our 2nd round pick. Very few rookies are going to make our team next year. We really don't have much of a need to keep 6th and 7th round picks. Use them to trade up for fewer higher rated picks. As an alternative, we could sign a FA running back like Turner, but what will he cost? The bottom line is this. We HAVE to get a good, young, and fast WR and CB, along with a speedy RB this off-season, through both FA and the draft. Everything else is just gravy.

[Star4Ever]

Forgot to address one thing. I also wouldn't mind trading Carpenter as long as we get something worth while for him. I don't like having a first round draft pick sitting on the bench for two years, with # 3 looming ahead. If the coaching staff thinks he will move into a starting position next year, then keep him. Otherwise, we're just letting him rot on the bench. I do not want to trade Spears. He played very well this year and I love our depth on the DL. We have a fantastic rotation on the DL and that's very important.

[Rack Bauer]

Moss doesn't play for the Cowboys:D

and you didn't answer my question about Galloway breaking his leg twice...

I don't recall any questions about Gallowaste breakign his leg. And I don't recall Gallowaste ever breaking his leg. I know he tore his knee up in his first game ever with the cowboys, but don't recall any broken legs.

[CowboyFan74]

I don't recall any questions about Gallowaste breakign his leg. And I don't recall Gallowaste ever breaking his leg. I know he tore his knee up in his first game ever with the cowboys, but don't recall any broken legs.

Ok so Gallowaste blew his knee, refresh my memory on how early on did this happen..

[Rack Bauer]

Ok so Gallowaste blew his knee, refresh my memory on how early on did this happen..

It happened in the 4th quarter of his first game as a cowboy.


Campo, being the complete moron of a head coach that he was, decided to keep Gallowaste in the game despite the fact that the Eagles were blowing us out (the pickle juice game) and Troy Aikman not even in the game (yet another concussion).


Don't remember how it happened, but I think he got twisted up trying to catch a pass in the endzone.


And that work of genius started off the Campo Era.

[Spectre]

Our 2nd round pick and Akin Ayodele.
Our #28 and Ayodele.

RW is an absolute freak, w/o a QB, on a horrible football team.
What this guy and Romo could do for many, many years is the stuff dreams are made of.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It seems like you guys just make up whatever you saw done on Madden and think it makes sense.

Williams was not very good this last year and he has only a year left on his deal and where do you get all these first round picks as being a good value ideas from?

It just seems to me like the thinking is 'well hes from Texas and I really like him so a first just has to be a good idea' when in reality there is no good precedent for doing it. Deion Branch, Joey Galloway and Randy Moss Part Uno were all horrible trades yet you guys seem to think that this guy who was hurt again last year will merit similar compensation. its unbelievable.

[justbob]

I also think he is worth a top 5 pick. He's young, very adequate speed, and could be the go-to-guy on any team in the league. I would prefer Fitz but I would settle for Roy.

I agree. Fitz would be my first choice --but I would take either and have a proven product over drafting one if I could

[Sarge]

The comparison was remarkably dumb. Admit it and move on.



It was incredibly dumb indeed. He'll never admit it though. He'll just take potshots at others to make himself feel better. It actually makes for a rather enjoyable read.......................:D

Carry on . . .

[burmafrd]

Roy Williams would be an interesting pickup. With one year left on his initial contract, this would be an audition for the NFL. Very motivating. If we can get him for our frst, it would be a good deal. even if we only ended up keeping him that one year- what if we get a SB out of it? How much is a SB worth?

[raichledog]

It seems like you guys just make up whatever you saw done on Madden and think it makes sense.

Williams was not very good this last year and he has only a year left on his deal and where do you get all these first round picks as being a good value ideas from?

It just seems to me like the thinking is 'well hes from Texas and I really like him so a first just has to be a good idea' when in reality there is no good precedent for doing it. Deion Branch, Joey Galloway and Randy Moss Part Uno were all horrible trades yet you guys seem to think that this guy who was hurt again last year will merit similar compensation. its unbelievable.

I think people dramatically underestimate how good a player Roy Williams is. He is on a team that has no quarterback, and no running game, and yet he puts up fantastic numbers.

He was averaging over 5 catches per game, and was on pace for over 85 catches and 1,100 yards receiving. 2 years ago he had over 1,300 yards receiving and has 28 touchdowns in only 4 years. He's explosive, big, great hands, and YOUNG.

Saying he hasn't played well, or isn't worth a 1st rounder is just silly.

To address the 2nd portion of your comment, if we made the trade, I'm certain it would be contingent on negotiation an extension on his contract and locking him up for another 5-6 years.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I think people dramatically underestimate how good a player Roy Williams is. He is on a team that has no quarterback, and no running game, and yet he puts up fantastic numbers.

He was averaging over 5 catches per game, and was on pace for over 85 catches and 1,100 yards receiving. 2 years ago he had over 1,300 yards receiving and has 28 touchdowns in only 4 years. He's explosive, big, great hands, and YOUNG.

Saying he hasn't played well, or isn't worth a 1st rounder is just silly.

To address the 2nd portion of your comment, if we made the trade, I'm certain it would be contingent on negotiation an extension on his contract and locking him up for another 5-6 years.

Kitna has been with them for the last two years and while he is not all world he certainly isnt bad. Plus Williams plays in Mike Martz system where WR stats are inflated.

Perhaps you should look up his stats because he put up fantastic numbers ONCE and while he may have been on pace to put up decent numbers he did what he alays does and got hurt.

Fact is that his value is depressed because of his once again being hurt last year and while a deal would necessitate an extension negotiation that would also DECREASE his value in trade as it decreases the leverage that the Lions have.

Im still waiting for a singledecent precedent other than the debacles involving Moss, Galloway or Branch. Those were bad trades and now youre proposing another one. I mean heck Chris Chambers who has put up better more consistent numbers over his career with bad to worse QBs at the helm and a no injuries still only garnered a second and that was even with multiple years left on his deal.

But hey lets give up a first when the Lions have no leverage and we could still get him next season for NOTHING.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It was incredibly dumb indeed. He'll never admit it though. He'll just take potshots at others to make himself feel better. It actually makes for a rather enjoyable read.......................:D

Carry on . . .

How is comparing making a deal that involves taking a first and a seocnd for a WR and another deal that was expected to take atwo late firsts for another WR 'stupid?' You guys keep babbling this and giving no explenations but when it comes down to it thats what we expected to give in the Galloway trade.

I have explained what I just said several times yet the two of you keep up with this nonsense. Furthermore, youve come into this thread twice now to try and take shots at meso keep your hypocritical jargon to yourself.

You couldnt explain yourself out of a paperbag much less why my comparison is invalid yet the two of you parrot the same tripe.

[theogt]

How is comparing making a deal that involves taking a first and a seocnd for a WR and another deal that was expected to take atwo late firsts for another WR 'stupid?' You guys keep babbling this and giving no explenations but when it comes down to it thats what we expected to give in the Galloway trade.

I have explained what I just said several times yet the two of you keep up with this nonsense. Furthermore, youve come into this thread twice now to try and take shots at meso keep your hypocritical jargon to yourself.

You couldnt explain yourself out of a paperbag much less why my comparison is invalid yet the two of you parrot the same tripe.We've explained to you why your comparison was ridiculous. You just don't accept our explanation.

[CowboyFan74]

Kitna has been with them for the last two years and while he is not all world he certainly isnt bad. Plus Williams plays in Mike Martz system where WR stats are inflated.

Perhaps you should look up his stats because he put up fantastic numbers ONCE and while he may have been on pace to put up decent numbers he did what he alays does and got hurt.

Fact is that his value is depressed because of his once again being hurt last year and while a deal would necessitate an extension negotiation that would also DECREASE his value in trade as it decreases the leverage that the Lions have.

Im still waiting for a singledecent precedent other than the debacles involving Moss, Galloway or Branch. Those were bad trades and now youre proposing another one. I mean heck Chris Chambers who has put up better more consistent numbers over his career with bad to worse QBs at the helm and a no injuries still only garnered a second and that was even with multiple years left on his deal.

But hey lets give up a first when the Lions have no leverage and we could still get him next season for NOTHING.

I feel ya man and most of the opinions are they would prefer to give up a 2nd but are willing to give up as much as a 1st to get him. It's a gamble that can go either way, just like a draft pick can go either way. Nothing is guaranteed, we get it...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

We've explained to you why your comparison was ridiculous. You just don't accept our explanation.

You meant he part where you put words into my mouth? How about an explanation based on what I actually said not what you would have liked me to say so you would have a point.

Anyway, even if I grant this it still doesnt answer everything else like absolutely no good and reasonable precedent for giving two high draft picks for an oft injured WR with one year on his deal froma team with NO leverage.

[theogt]

You meant he part where you put words into my mouth? How about an explanation based on what I actually said not what you would have liked me to say so you would have a point.

Anyway, even if I grant this it still doesnt answer everything else like absolutely no good and reasonable precedent for giving two high draft picks for an oft injured WR with one year on his deal froma team with NO leverage.Explaining things to you doesn't seem to be very fruitful and thus not worth the time.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Explaining things to you doesn't seem to be very fruitful and thus not worth the time.

thats a lie and you know it. you love to stick it to people when they are so obviously wrong so spare me this new line. i can pretty much guarantee you that if we offered the Lions a second the deal would already be done but luckily our front office knows to gauge the market and not just make up nonsense based on fantasy land.

[theogt]

thats a lie and you know it. you love to stick it to people when they are so obviously wrong so spare me this new line. i can pretty much guarantee you that if we offered the Lions a second the deal would already be done but luckily our front office knows to gauge the market and not just make up nonsense based on fantasy land.What more is there to explain? Trading two first round picks is not at all similar to trading a late first rounder and a late 2nd rounder. I've explained to you the extreme value difference and all you can come back with is that we expected the picks to be low first rounders. Well, we knew that one of them was going to be at #19, so that's a significant difference alone from #28. The only thing remotely saving your argument is that we didn't know that the second first round pick would be at #9. But even if it was at #32 the value difference would have been so great as to make it a ridiculous comparison.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What more is there to explain? Trading two first round picks is not at all similar to trading a late first rounder and a late 2nd rounder. I've explained to you the extreme value difference and all you can come back with is that we expected the picks to be low first rounders. Well, we knew that one of them was going to be at #19, so that's a significant difference alone from #28. The only thing remotely saving your argument is that we didn't know that the second first round pick would be at #9. But even if it was at #32 the value difference would have been so great as to make it a ridiculous comparison.

Thats one way to look at it. Another is to say that in the WR trades in history only the Raiders gave up more for Moss and we gave up more for Galloway in the history in the NFL. Your trade would land between the Branch and Galloway trade as the biggest values given up for WR in the last 20 years for a WR.

That is and was my point and jsut becasue the figures are not equivalent does not meana comparison cannot be drawn. Its called relativity not equality.

All of those were considered bad trades but for some reason you think that this will be a good trade. It makes no sense in a historical context and it makes no sense in a performance or market context. But hey at least you have Sarge.

The only person potentially on the market that would be worth that kings ransom would be Fitzgerald and not Williams and lets face it if there is one position in the NFL thats a dime a dozen, its WR.

[Sarge]

:popcorn: * * * * * * * * * * :banjo:

[Rack Bauer]

Flat out it would be dumb to trade a first and second for a WR that has shown to be injury prone thus far, especially when he WANTS to return to Texas and will be a FA next year.

[theogt]

Thats one way to look at it. Another is to say that in the WR trades in history only the Raiders gave up more for Moss and we gave up more for Galloway in the history in the NFL. Your trade would land between the Branch and Galloway trade as the biggest values given up for WR in the last 20 years for a WR.

That is and was my point and jsut becasue the figures are not equivalent does not meana comparison cannot be drawn. Its called relativity not equality.

All of those were considered bad trades but for some reason you think that this will be a good trade. It makes no sense in a historical context and it makes no sense in a performance or market context. But hey at least you have Sarge.

The only person potentially on the market that would be worth that kings ransom would be Fitzgerald and not Williams and lets face it if there is one position in the NFL thats a dime a dozen, its WR.Worthwhile attempt at spin.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Worthwhile attempt at spin.

You truly are pathetic.

As i stated the value you are proposing is between the second and third most EVER given up for a WR. That not spin it is what it is.

You cannot deny that yet you keep up this childish nonsense.

[CowboyFan74]

Let's bump this thread if and when we get the guy..:D

[Rack Bauer]

Let's bump this thread if and when we get the guy..:D

As long as we don't give up a first AND second for him.

[CowboyFan74]

As long as we don't give up a first AND second for him.


:eek: The horror that would be... Watch us get him for a 3rd:D

[ddh33]

I think Roy Williams could very well be worth a first, especially when you consider the production you are likely to get from a first round receiver.

But I also understand what everyone else is saying. Why offer the first? I think you might be able to get him for less.

[Rack Bauer]

:eek: The horror that would be... Watch us get him for a 3rd:D

That would make me very happy.

[theogt]

You truly are pathetic.zOMG!!!11111111111 ThaTz the last basti0nz of da suxx0rs argumentz!11111111

[khiladi]

The guy worked with no offensive line, and had Kitna who holds onto the ball way too long...

The guy was on pace for 80 catches. Those are damn good numbers...

He is worth a 1st round draft pick...

[dalboy]

nothing

wait for him to come to us next year its a thing called patience

why trade a lot when you can wait to get what you want.

[Star4Ever]

nothing

wait for him to come to us next year its a thing called patience

why trade a lot when you can wait to get what you want.

And remind me how this would help us in the 2008 season?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The guy worked with no offensive line, and had Kitna who holds onto the ball way too long...

The guy was on pace for 80 catches. Those are damn good numbers...

He is worth a 1st round draft pick...

But then he got hurt just like he did in 04 and 05. Im not saying that he sucks but the injuries hes had are a huge red flag.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

zOMG!!!11111111111 ThaTz the last basti0nz of da suxx0rs argumentz!11111111

How about you address the rest of that post. The reason I said you were pathetic is because you keep ignoring the rebuttals which you cannot refute.

What you are proposing would be the third most anyone has ever given for a WR behind only Moss for the 7th pick and a LBer and Galloway for two firsts.

You called it spin but you do not deny that it is true which is very telling rather you try and deflect attention with your childish antics.

[theogt]

How about you address the rest of that post. The reason I said you were pathetic is because you keep ignoring the rebuttals which you cannot refute.I haven't ignore a thing.

What you are proposing would be the third most anyone has ever given for a WR behind only Moss for the 7th pick and a LBer and Galloway for two firsts.This isn't a rebuttal.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I haven't ignore a thing.

This isn't a rebuttal.

no that would be my inital point. your rebuttal was that they werent the same because of draft values which as i initially stated completely misses the point.

im still wondering in what context, market, historical or whatever your getting the 1st and a second is a good idea from.

you ignored my response to you saying a HoF WR has missed similar time to RW.

you ignored the Chambers being the best starting point argument.

you ignored the Lions having zero leverage due to him not resigning and being on record saying h wants to return to Texas.

you ignored my contention that him being put on IR recently witha knee injury once again scuttling his season should diminish his value.

youve really ignored everything except the historical context of your proposal and you dont even address that right by demanding that the things that they are compared to must be equal.

and you try and call what im syaing spin but youre trying to twist one thing that i say and hope thatll deflect attention from the rest.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Plain and simple question to all who are interested in this thread.

If Roy Williams were in Dallas, would he be succesful? Would he make our offense better then what it was this year? Yes, or no?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Plain and simple question to all who are interested in this thread.

If Roy Williams were in Dallas, would he be succesful? Would he make our offense better then what it was this year? Yes, or no?

probably but then again hed also probably miss a significant amount of time due to injury.

[CowboyFan74]

Plain and simple question to all who are interested in this thread.

If Roy Williams were in Dallas, would he be succesful? Would he make our offense better then what it was this year? Yes, or no?

Does a bear do his dookey in the woods?:D

[khiladi]

But then he got hurt just like he did in 04 and 05. Im not saying that he sucks but the injuries hes had are a huge red flag.

he has to go up and catch passes that are thrown by Jon Kitna.... that is asking for trouble....

but seriously, the guy has averaged 14 game seasons ever year he has been in the league... I don't know when this guy got hrut, but I'm sure his missing games was also dictated by whetehr the Lions were in play-off contention or not. There is no reason to risk more injury if your essentially eliminated from the play-offs, like Detroit was last year, when Roy Williams was out during the 4 game stretch.

The guy hasn't had a sever injury that has hurt his performance. What has hrut his performance is being surrounded by an incredibly crappy team, that hasn't had an OL for ages...

[slick325]

Plain and simple question to all who are interested in this thread.

If Roy Williams were in Dallas, would he be succesful? Would he make our offense better then what it was this year? Yes, or no?

Great query ABQ. That is all that needs to be asked and answered in this thread. Then make a decision as to what value for the Dallas Cowboys of 2008 and beyond Roy Williams has based on: age, talent, stats, injury history, market value for WR's with his ability, market value in recent years for WR's (what WR's were traded recently, for what and how do they stack up to Roy Williams).

Thanks ABQ.

[ZeroClub]

Plain and simple question to all who are interested in this thread.

If Roy Williams were in Dallas, would he be succesful? Would he make our offense better then what it was this year? Yes, or no?
I think the Cowboys need another major threat at WR to go along with Owens. Roy Williams fits that bill. I think they'd be very good together, especially factoring in Witten.

But value is an issue too and I'm not sure what Williams is worth (draft choices, salary cap, injury risk, etc.).

[Bob Sacamano]

We start at #28 and go up from that.

I'm w/ you 100% except for this part, I don't think we should start the bidding at a 1st round pick

a 3rd at the least

[theogt]

I'm w/ you 100% except for this part, I don't think we should start the bidding at a 1st round pick

a 3rd at the leastOf course, from a negotiating standpoint. But I'm talking about what his value is in terms of what other players have received. Of course we're going to try and get him for a lesser amount.