Barack Obama Double Standard !!!

[irvin88]

The Barack Obama Double Standard
By Doug Patton
March 17, 2008
Imagine in 1999, that a videotape had come to light showing the pastor of Texas Gov. George W. Bush's church making vicious, hateful comments about America and cruel, racist statements about Americans of color.

Suppose this preacher had given a lifetime achievement award to former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke, and had traveled to Europe with Duke to meet with neo-Nazi terrorists.

Now try to envision that the candidate's family had attended this church for more than twenty years, that George and Laura Bush had been married there, by this pastor, and that the Bush daughters had been baptized by him.

Picture George Bush titling his autobiography after a phrase in one of this minister's sermons, writing that the man was his mentor, and then putting him on the presidential campaign staff as a trusted advisor and confidant.

Say it came to light that for several years George W. Bush had been friends with Eric Rudolph, the notorious Olympic Park bomber and anti-abortion terrorist. Furthermore, let's suppose that Bush had remained friends with Rudolph over the years and still considered him a colleague today.

Now imagine Laura Bush, on the campaign trail for her husband, telling supporters and the national media that America is "mean" and that for the first time in her adult life she was proud of her country.

Is there a doubt that Republican officeholders would have run from the Bush campaign like rats from a burning barn, that he would have become the political leper of the 2000 campaign? And what about the media? They virtually crucified candidate Bush that year for daring to give a speech at Bob Jones University, which had once banned interracial dating. I cannot imagine the field day they would have had with something like this.

And yet excuses are made for Barack Obama, who now finds himself in exactly this situation. Obama's pastor of more than two decades - the man who married Barack and Michelle Obama, who christened their daughters, who inspired the title of the candidate's book, "The Audacity of Hope," - is now at the center of a storm that would have destroyed the candidacy of any Republican the day the story broke.

Rev. Jeremiah Wright, pastor of Trinity United Church of in Chicago for the last 36 years, has been caught on tape denouncing the United States and the white race in terms that should shock and disgust every thinking American. Wright and the church swear allegiance to the "mother country" - Africa. (Presumably this includes the Obama family.)

Rather than trying to infuse his congregation with hope and encouragement, Wright poisons them with vitriol about how the U.S. government has tried to commit genocide against the black community using drugs and the AIDS virus as weapons of choice.

"Don't say God bless America," Wright screams in one sermon. "God damn America!"

Wright, representing the church, bestowed a lifetime achievement award on Louis Farrakhan, the racist leader of the Nation of Islam. In the 1980s, Wright traveled to Libya with Farrakhan to meet with Muammar Gaddafi.

If Barack Obama has not been paying attention in church, it is apparent that his wife, Michelle, has. Campaigning for her husband recently, she said that for the first time in her adult life, she is finally proud of her country. In a separate speech, she said America is "a mean country."

Obama is friends with William Ayers, an admitted domestic terrorist with the Weather Underground, which declared war on the United States and claimed responsibility for bombing several government buildings, including the Pentagon and the State Department building, in the 1970s. In an interview with The New York Times, ironically published on the morning of September 11, 2001, Ayers was quoted as saying, "I don't regret setting bombs; I feel we didn't do enough."

Now a tenured professor at the University of Chicago (only in America!), Ayers met Barack Obama in the 1990s. They have remained friends ever since.

We are judged not just by our words, but by the company we keep. The litmus test should not be whether or not everyone a candidate knows is ideal. That is an impossible standard. The true measure of a man is in his ability to choose friends with which he can be proud to stand shoulder to shoulder, not those about whom he must equivocate and for whom he must apologize.

[Jon88]

I hope this sinks him.

[bootsy]

I hope this sinks him.
Guess what, it's not.

[Jon88]

Guess what, it's not.


Guess what, you aren't a psychic.

Nice name, by the way.

[Cajuncowboy]

Obama is friends with William Ayers, an admitted domestic terrorist with the Weather Underground, which declared war on the United States and claimed responsibility for bombing several government buildings, including the Pentagon and the State Department building, in the 1970s. In an interview with The New York Times, ironically published on the morning of September 11, 2001, Ayers was quoted as saying, "I don't regret setting bombs; I feel we didn't do enough."

Now a tenured professor at the University of Chicago (only in America!), Ayers met Barack Obama in the 1990s. They have remained friends ever since.



This alone is enough to sink him and I promise you this, it will be a central theme in the general if he is nominated. If it was fair game to look at Bush's associates and friends and get all hot and bothered, then this is going to be a bell cow for the Republicans.

[Jon88]

This alone is enough to sink him and I promise you this, it will be a central theme in the general if he is nominated. If it was fair game to look at Bush's associates and friends and get all hot and bothered, then this is going to be a bell cow for the Republicans.

The party's over. Everyone can go home now. Sorry about the "hope" and "change" thing. There wasn't a plan for that anyway. It just sounded good.

[BrAinPaiNt]

This will be his downfall.

In previous threads I have stated how if the clintons or the McCain camp wanted to let people go after Obama with veiled racist type attacks they would lose and Obama would just sit back and let them kill themselves with the method. And for some time that was indeed working for him.

However with this type of thing if he continues to support the man and deny that he ever heard this type of stuff he is sunk.

I just hope it is not too early and Hillary has some kind of regrouping that somehow gets her the nomination, because I want no chance at all of her winning.

[heavyg]

This will be his downfall.

In previous threads I have stated how if the clintons or the McCain camp wanted to let people go after Obama with veiled racist type attacks they would lose and Obama would just sit back and let them kill themselves with the method. And for some time that was indeed working for him.

However with this type of thing if he continues to support the man and deny that he ever heard this type of stuff he is sunk.

I just hope it is not too early and Hillary has some kind of regrouping that somehow gets her the nomination, because I want no chance at all of her winning.

Two things come to mind about this whole Rev Wright issue. First are the rumors of Obama being a Muslim and him denying those rumors. Second is his credibility (lieing). He says he has never personally heard any of these types of comments from HIS pastor. Well he is either lieing about never hearing them OR he doesn't really attend this church and the "Christian" title he put on himself is false as well. You can not attend a church for 20+ years and not know what your pastor and "spiritual leader" is all about.

This guy scares the you know what out of me. He is a wolf in sheeps clothing.

[BrAinPaiNt]

Two things come to mind about this whole Rev Wright issue. First are the rumors of Obama being a Muslim and him denying those rumors. Second is his credibility (lieing). He says he has never personally heard any of these types of comments from HIS pastor. Well he is either lieing about never hearing them OR he doesn't really attend this church and the "Christian" title he put on himself is false as well. You can not attend a church for 20+ years and not know what your pastor and "spiritual leader" is all about.

This guy scares the you know what out of me. He is a wolf in sheeps clothing.

I agree with your takes of him not hearing those types of comments. I just can't believe he has not heard them before.

As far as the muslim stuff.

I think this pastor is just all about black people and it is not because he is muslim or christian. If there is someone who has a high ranking within the black community or he sees them as someone who talks about the black people in a positive light...he will gravitate towards them and vice versa. I don't think he is muslim, just looking out for his own race...even if that means getting the best chance for a black president sunk.

[heavyg]

I agree with your takes of him not hearing those types of comments. I just can't believe he has not heard them before.

As far as the muslim stuff.

I think this pastor is just all about black people and it is not because he is muslim or christian. If there is someone who has a high ranking within the black community or he sees them as someone who talks about the black people in a positive light...he will gravitate towards them and vice versa. I don't think he is muslim, just looking out for his own race...even if that means getting the best chance for a black president sunk.


I wasn't meaning Rev Wright being the Muslim. I was referring to Obama. There are just too many stories out there about him being raised as a Muslim. I can not quote an exact statement but I believe Obama said he was raised a Muslim then later on "converted" to Christianity. I could be wrong and would admit so if someone could enlighten me.

[Jordan55]

http://elections.foxnews.com/files/2008/03/obama_wright_320.jpg
Priceless
He's already dropping in the ratings, it will be interesting to hear how he spins himself out of this situation today.
He's taking on water and I don't believe he can right the ship.
Of course in defense of the Reverend White, we have taken his words out of context, we haven't listened to his whole sermon. This coming from his congregation.
All I know at this point Obama, has lost all creditability with his excuse that he was not present at the services, he scares the Be- out of me, and I'm sure, I'm not the only one.
On a side note, Did anyone notice how John McCain, was front page news with his so call association with lobbyist, but the Obama, pastor story was buried deep into the papers.
Now I ask you is there a bias by our printed news organizations?
It's pretty sad when the press undermines the election process.

[Heisenberg]

http://elections.foxnews.com/files/2008/03/obama_wright_320.jpg
Priceless
He's already dropping in the ratings, it will be interesting to hear how he spins himself out of this situation today.
He's taking on water and I don't believe he can right the ship.
Of course in defense of the Reverend White, we have taken his words out of context, we haven't listened to his whole sermon. This coming from his congregation.
All I know at this point Obama, has lost all creditability with his excuse that he was not present at the services, he scares the Be- out of me, and I'm sure, I'm not the only one.
On a side note, Did anyone notice how John McCain, was front page news with his so call association with lobbyist, but the Obama, pastor story was buried deep into the papers.
Now I ask you is there a bias by our printed news organizations?
It's pretty sad when the press undermines the election process.


Not really.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/17/poll.democrats/index.html

He still leads Clinton in polling.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/18/candidate.poll/index.html

He's also ahead of McCain in polling, but basically tied.

All these were done after the Wright thing.

[SultanOfSix]

I highly doubt this will sink him. The problem is the African American community still feels the pangs of racism, and if they see this as a way to "bring down" Obama via guilt by association, then they are just going to be more determined to vote for him. The more the media pushes this issue, the more it will have the reverse effect. However, it also depends upon what Obama says in his speech today.

[WoodysGirl]

I highly doubt this will sink him. The problem is the African American community still feels the pangs of racism, and if they see this as a way to "bring down" Obama via guilt by association, then they are just going to be more determined to vote for him. The more the media pushes this issue, the more it will have the reverse effect. However, it also depends upon what Obama says in his speech today.I guess this could apply to some folks. I've never been a "support the black candidate cuz he's a black candidate" kinda person. Ignorant and incompentent come in all shapes and colors. Unfortunately, all the candidates that are up for election have some serious flaws that makes it hard to support any of them 100%.

Just a few random thoughts:

There's alot of nasty rhetoric spewing these days that both sides need to tell their supporters to shut it up.

Obama's religion
I doubt he's a muslim, even if he attended a muslim school in his early years. It should be a non-issue at this point.

Obama's pastor
Growing up in the church, I've heard a bunch of things preached from the pulpit. So I know he's heard his pastor say a bunch of those types of things over the years. I certainly have. He would've been better served by just denouncing what his pastor said and leaving it at that. His biggest mistake was saying he never heard him say those things.

As to why he'd continue to attend the church, you tend to filter the message coming from the pulpit. Not defending/supporting anything said by the pastor, just saying that I haven't always agreed with everything my pastors have said over the years.

Michelle Obama
As for whether she is finally being proud of her country for the first time, I think it's a matter of perspective. It's not about not loving the country or being unpatriotic or anything like that. To me, it's about for the first time, in my adulthood, I see all kinds of people engaged in the process. Young, old, all kinds of races. There's excitement in the air, people are talking about it at the job, in the hair salon, at Walmart, everywhere. It's a great thing.

[Sasquatch]

If there's one thing some people will never abide it's an angry black man bad mouthing this country in front of a crowd of black people.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

[Danny White]

To me, it's about for the first time, in my adulthood, I see all kinds of people engaged in the process. Young, old, all kinds of races. There's excitement in the air, people are talking about it at the job, in the hair salon, at Walmart, everywhere. It's a great thing.
What you say is very true.

But how are all these people going to feel if/when Hillary screws him out of the nomination?

That's what I'm interested to see.

You have a very energized base on your hands that doesn't care much at all about the Rev Wright issue... they just like their candidate.

But party leaders are going to see that Obama has become a damaged candidate with the general electorate, and the temptation to bump him for Hillary is going to be tremendous come convention time. But if they do that, they'll have a full-on rebellion on their hands with the base that has come to love Obama so much.

It's going to be very interesting to watch develop.

[Jon88]

If there's one thing some people will never abide it's an angry black man bad mouthing this country in front of a crowd of black people.

Be afraid, be very afraid.


I really don't understand your line of thinking. At all.

[WoodysGirl]

What you say is very true.

But how are all these people going to feel if/when Hillary screws him out of the nomination?

That's what I'm interested to see.

You have a very energized base on your hands that doesn't care much at all about the Rev Wright issue... they just like their candidate.I don't consider myself a representative for the black community by any means. What I can say is that the people I know are not solidly behind either candidate. They like the idea of Obama, but are not 100% sold. They don't mind Hillary, because of her affiliation with Bill.

I don't think many know a thing about McCain. I think McCain is in a good spot right now. He can go under the radar, shore up his campaign financing and gear up for the general election. I'm actually spending more time reading up on him than tracking Clinton or Obama. Ultimately one of them will win.

It is definitely interesting to watch from my perspective..

JMO, but those who follow Obama will follow Hillary with no problems. Partially because, before Obama was considered a legitimate candidate. If she gains the nomination, the same base of followers will pick up stakes and follow her too.

But party leaders are going to see that Obama has become a damaged candidate with the general electorate, and the temptation to bump him for Hillary is going to be tremendous come convention time. But if they do that, they'll have a full-on rebellion on their hands with the base that has come to love Obama so much.

It's going to be very interesting to watch develop.Hillary and Obama have both been damaged by this nomination process. Whoever wins the nomination is going to embark on some major spin.

[Danny White]

I don't consider myself a representative for the black community by any means. What I can say is that the people I know are not solidly behind either candidate. They like the idea of Obama, but are not 100% sold. They don't mind Hillary, because of her affiliation with Bill.

I don't think many know a thing about McCain. I think McCain is in a good spot right now. He can go under the radar, shore up his campaign financing and gear up for the general election. I'm actually spending more time reading up on him than tracking Clinton or Obama. Ultimately one of them will win.

It is definitely interesting to watch from my perspective..

JMO, but those who follow Obama will follow Hillary with no problems. Partially because, before Obama was considered a legitimate candidate. If she gains the nomination, the same base of followers will pick up stakes and follow her too.
Hillary and Obama have both been damaged by this nomination process. Whoever wins the nomination is going to embark on some major spin.

I may have given you the wrong impression... I wasn't addressing you specifically as you made it pretty clear you were kind of on the fence. And when I said "these people" I didn't mean just black Americans... I meant the hard-core Obama supporters, which include a lot of blacks but a lot of others as well who have very much bought into his candidacy.

I think you may be underestimating how hurt some of these people will be if Obama is denied the nomination due to back-room shenanigans.

I just read a poll that said 1-in-5 Democrat primary voters would NOT vote for Clinton in the general election if she wins the nomination because of the Superdelegates. That's a huge number and more than enough to sway an election.

(The poll. Some good info in there!)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-03-17-poll_N.htm

[zrinkill]

If McCain or even John Edwards were going to a church where the minister was saying these same things about another race ..... and then called that same preacher his mentor.

Their careers would be over.

And everyone here knows it ...... whether they will admit it or not.

[Jon88]

If McCain or even John Edwards were going to a church where the minister was saying these same things about another race ..... and then called that same preacher his mentor.

Their careers would be over.

And everyone here knows it ...... whether they will admit it or not.


You are correct. It will just happen a little slower with Obama.

[Jordan55]

If there's one thing some people will never abide it's an angry black man bad mouthing this country in front of a crowd of black people.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

Or Drinking Kool-aid after a religious sermon,
Be afraid, be very afraid

[SultanOfSix]

If McCain or even John Edwards were going to a church where the minister was saying these same things about another race ..... and then called that same preacher his mentor.

Their careers would be over.

And everyone here knows it ...... whether they will admit it or not.

Would their careers be over? Possibly. Would they be castigated? Certainly.

The problem is that they aren't equivalent situations. In the above case, you would have the majority making derogatory remarks to a minority. Whereas, in Obama's pastor's case, it was the opposite situation, and it was done within the context of what once was a suppressed "race", (less than 50 years ago), and some people of that said "race" still do feel the pangs of "racism".

[WoodysGirl]

I may have given you the wrong impression... I wasn't addressing you specifically as you made it pretty clear you were kind of on the fence. And when I said "these people" I didn't mean just black Americans... I meant the hard-core Obama supporters, which include a lot of blacks but a lot of others as well who have very much bought into his candidacy.

I think you may be underestimating how hurt some of these people will be if Obama is denied the nomination due to back-room shenanigans.

I just read a poll that said 1-in-5 Democrat primary voters would NOT vote for Clinton in the general election if she wins the nomination because of the Superdelegates. That's a huge number and more than enough to sway an election.

(The poll. Some good info in there!)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-03-17-poll_N.htm It'll definitely be up to the Democratic party to massage those hurt feelings and get them back on board. The message should be simply about staying engaged in the process.

[heavyg]

Would their careers be over? Possibly. Would they be castigated? Certainly.

The problem is this is that they aren't equivalent situations. In the above case, you would have the majority making derogatory remarks to a minority. Whereas, in Obama's pastor's case, it was the opposite situation, and it was done within the context of what once was a suppressed "race", (less than 50 years ago), and some people of that said "race" still do feel the pangs of "racism".

So because of that he gets a pass? Give me a freakin break!! Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong no matter who is saying it about who. So is it ok for a Black man to be racist but not ok for a White man?

[Danny White]

Would their careers be over? Possibly. Would they be castigated? Certainly.

The problem is this is that they aren't equivalent situations. In the above case, you would have the majority making derogatory remarks to a minority. Whereas, in Obama's pastor's case, it was the opposite situation, and it was done within the context of what once was a suppressed "race", (less than 50 years ago), and some people of that said "race" still do feel the pangs of "racism".

That's why this is such a "victory" for Hillary. She's been trying desperately since South Carolina to paint Obama as an ideological descendant of Jesse Jackson... just another niche "black candidate" who's all about race.

As you pointed out before Sultan... he'd done a good job of avoiding being pulled into that trap up until now.

But now we're back focused on "suppression" and "history of racism" and what Obama's candidacy means vis a vis all of this. This is what Clinton has wanted all along, and I don't think it is where Obama wanted this campaign to go.

[SultanOfSix]

So because of that he gets a pass? Give me a freakin break!! Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong no matter who is saying it about who. So is it ok for a Black man to be racist but not ok for a White man?

Did I say he gets a pass or that it was right? I just said the situations are NOT equivalent.

[heavyg]

Did I say he gets a pass or that it was right? I just said the situations are NOT equivalent.

But it is equivalent. If we are to be equal in this country everyone. Man, Woman, Black, White or what ever should be held to the exact same standard

[WoodysGirl]

So because of that he gets a pass? Give me a freakin break!! Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong no matter who is saying it about who. So is it ok for a Black man to be racist but not ok for a White man?Not at all.

That's why this is such a "victory" for Hillary. She's been trying desperately since South Carolina to paint Obama as an ideological descendant of Jesse Jackson... just another niche "black candidate" who's all about race.

As you pointed out before Sultan... he'd done a good job of avoiding being pulled into that trap up until now.

But now we're back focused on "suppression" and "history of racism" and what Obama's candidacy means vis a vis all of this. This is what Clinton has wanted all along, and I don't think it is where Obama wanted this campaign to go.Thing is DW, he should've put it out there long before now. You can't avoid the obvious forever. Put it out there on the table and then move forward. He's obviously a different type of candidate and ignoring it was a mistake.

It's so late in the game that yes it's gonna hurt him. How much is the question. I don't know that it's a solid victory for Hillary just yet.

[SultanOfSix]

But it is equivalent. If we are to be equal in this country everyone. Man, Woman, Black, White or what ever should be held to the exact same standard

The act of "racism" is equivalent. But that doesn't make the situation equivalent. Sure, it is possible for a minority to be racist to a majority, but that is atypical, especially concerning this country's history.

"Racism" (I keep quoting it because scientifically there is no such thing) is still ingrained in this society as well as in many other parts of the entire world. It's a major problem.

[ndanger]

I don't consider myself a representative for the black community by any means. What I can say is that the people I know are not solidly behind either candidate. They like the idea of Obama, but are not 100% sold. They don't mind Hillary, because of her affiliation with Bill.

I don't think many know a thing about McCain. I think McCain is in a good spot right now. He can go under the radar, shore up his campaign financing and gear up for the general election. I'm actually spending more time reading up on him than tracking Clinton or Obama. Ultimately one of them will win.

It is definitely interesting to watch from my perspective..

JMO, but those who follow Obama will follow Hillary with no problems. Partially because, before Obama was considered a legitimate candidate. If she gains the nomination, the same base of followers will pick up stakes and follow her too.
Hillary and Obama have both been damaged by this nomination process. Whoever wins the nomination is going to embark on some major spin.

They all have their negatives and they each have some positives.It's almost like doing a rock paper scissors with these candidates.Dang, who put this political forum in here/ It's interfering with my football fix.Kinda like that danged ol' Obama speech I just watched. :D

[heavyg]

The act of "racism" is equivalent. But that doesn't make the situation equivalent. Sure, it is possible for a minority to be racist to a majority, but that is atypical, especially concerning this country's history.

"Racism" (I keep quoting it because scientifically there is no such thing) is still ingrained in this society as well as in many other parts of the entire world. It's a major problem.

I have to respectfully disagree with you. This is not the USA of 200 yrs ago. Are there still idiots out there that have a racist attitude and lifestyle? Absolutely! But its nothing like it was 200 or even 50 yrs ago. Those people are in the minority. At what point do we stop bringing up the past? Minorities of all colors have the same chance in this country as anyone else today.

I do not dislike Obama because of his race. I dislike him for the same reason I don't like Hillary. Because of his liberal stance. I was hoping and praying years ago the Colin Powell would have ran for president. I am doing the same right now that McCain will ask Condi Rice to be his VP. I believe in 4 yrs she would make a GREAT president.

[zrinkill]

The problem is that they aren't equivalent situations. In the above case, you would have the majority making derogatory remarks to a minority. Whereas, in Obama's pastor's case, it was the opposite situation, and it was done within the context of what once was a suppressed "race", (less than 50 years ago), and some people of that said "race" still do feel the pangs of "racism".

Being half Mexican I can tell you, without a doubt, that their is racism on both sides and each hurt equally.

In racism, the minority and majority argument only applies to political correctness, or someone who tries to use it as a guilt attack.

Do not try and tell me that a 10 year old boy being ridiculed by his cousins because he is "too white" to play kickball hurts any less than if he was latino or black being treated the same.
__________________

[heavyg]

They all have their negatives and they each have some positives.It's almost like doing a rock paper scissors with these candidates.Dang, who put this political forum in here/ It's interfering with my football fix.Kinda like that danged ol' Obama speech I just watched. :D

LOL yeah I find myself gravitating to this forum more now than I do the main football forum. But its only because there is NO Cowboys news worth talking about.

[WoodysGirl]

I have to respectfully disagree with you. This is not the USA of 200 yrs ago. Are there still idiots out there that have a racist attitude and lifestyle? Absolutely! But its nothing like it was 200 or even 50 yrs ago. Those people are in the minority. At what point do we stop bringing up the past? Minorities of all colors have the same chance in this country as anyone else today.

I agree it's not the same as even 50 years ago. I'll be the first to admit that I haven't experienced racism to the same degree as my parents. It doesn't mean I haven't experienced it. Nor does it my mean my younger sisters haven't experienced some form of it. Nor does it mean my nieces and nephews won't experience some form of it.

As long as you have people who feel a certain way about another race (even in a minority as you suggest) and they impose that negativity upon another race, it'll never stop completely. The past can't be let go because the by-products of racism still occur in the present.

[heavyg]

I agree it's not the same as even 50 years ago. I'll be the first to admit that I haven't experienced racism to the same degree as my parents. It doesn't mean I haven't experienced it. Nor does it my mean my younger sisters haven't experienced some form of it. Nor does it mean my nieces and nephews won't experience some form of it.

As long as you have people who feel a certain way about another race (even in a minority as you suggest) and they impose that negativity upon another race, it'll never stop completely. The past can't be let go because the by-products of racism still occur in the present.

Your right. AS long as human beings walk this earth there will be racism.

You know I completely respect you in every way WG. But let me ask you a question. As a black woman. How would it make you feel if you had to take a test for a job. It was you against another white woman. You were both equally qualified in all aspects for the job. But when you tested your allowable passing score was 10-15% less than the others based solely on your race? Is that fair?

[SultanOfSix]

Being half Mexican I can tell you, without a doubt, that their is racism on both sides and each hurt equally.

In racism, the minority and majority argument only applies to political correctness, or someone who tries to use it as a guilt attack.

Do not try and tell me that a 10 year old boy being ridiculed by his cousins because he is "too white" to play kickball hurts any less than if he was latino or black being treated the same.
__________________

There was no argument about whether being on the minority side or the majority side hurt equally or not.

The fact is the situations aren't equivalent. One form of racism is primariliy based on ignorance, while the other is typically a reaction, especially in cases when the majority enforces its "racist" views on the minority. It literally isn't "black and white".

[zrinkill]

There was no argument about whether being on the minority side or the majority side hurt equally or not.

The fact is the situations aren't equivalent. One form of racism is primariliy based on ignorance, while the other is typically a reaction, especially in cases when the majority enforces its "racist" views on the minority. It literally isn't "black and white".

It is equivalent ..... the result is the same.

I am sure that this racist black preacher has hurt just as many people as a racist whit or latino preacher has.

To use anything as an excuse for such racism is excusing racism. Its a guilt driven crutch that allows racism to continue.

If we want to abolish such behavior ..... take the crutch away.

[WoodysGirl]

Your right. AS long as human beings walk this earth there will be racism.

You know I completely respect you in every way WG. But let me ask you a question. As a black woman. How would it make you feel if you had to take a test for a job. It was you against another white woman. You were both equally qualified in all aspects for the job. But when you tested your allowable passing score was 10-15% less than the others based solely on your race? Is that fair?
The question I would ask is why would I assume that I received a job where my score was lower than another candidates? How do I even know the score of the other person for me to think that it could be an issue? And if such a thing ever occurred, I would have to believe that other factors were taken into consideration besides my score.

My two degrees and years of experience allow me to safely assume that I'm a highly qualified person for any job I pursue and that any job I get is strictly based off that and nothing else. All things being equal, most hiring managers that I know, tend to go with a feel for a person and their personality as a major factor. Considering I mostly work in environments where I'm one of very few "minorities" I doubt it's because I'm filling a quota of some kind.

[Jordan55]

I agree it's not the same as even 50 years ago. I'll be the first to admit that I haven't experienced racism to the same degree as my parents. It doesn't mean I haven't experienced it. Nor does it my mean my younger sisters haven't experienced some form of it. Nor does it mean my nieces and nephews won't experience some form of it.

As long as you have people who feel a certain way about another race (even in a minority as you suggest) and they impose that negativity upon another race, it'll never stop completely. The past can't be let go because the by-products of racism still occur in the present.

Oh it still exists! and from all races, it's a work in progress, but there was a great line in an old movie, that Dean Wormer, says and
I find that it hold's true to this day

Ignorant is no way to go thru life
But the times they are a changin

[Chief]

Oh it still exists! and from all races, it's a work in progress, but there was a great line in an old movie, that Dean Wormer, says and
I find that it hold's true to this day

Ignorant is no way to go thru life
But the times they are a changin

I thought Dean Wormer said, "Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life ... "

;)

[Jordan55]

I thought Dean Wormer said, "Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life ... "

;)

Your Right! My memory is going, then hell I'll take credit for it.
Thanks:bow:

[ndanger]

I agree it's not the same as even 50 years ago. I'll be the first to admit that I haven't experienced racism to the same degree as my parents. It doesn't mean I haven't experienced it. Nor does it my mean my younger sisters haven't experienced some form of it. Nor does it mean my nieces and nephews won't experience some form of it.

As long as you have people who feel a certain way about another race (even in a minority as you suggest) and they impose that negativity upon another race, it'll never stop completely. The past can't be let go because the by-products of racism still occur in the present.

I live in Oklahoma and find it interesting that what gets lost in all this talk about racism, is the fact that before there was this travesty called slavery for our African Americans, is the fact that many of our ancestors committed travesties on the Native American. I know as white person this has had a dramatic impact on me. It has made me be a better person and has allowed me to look at other peoples perspective, regardless of whether I agree or not.I do hope that in my children's lifetime that they can just see the fruits of past generations and not simply focus on the labor it took to get there. I'm not saying ignore the labor in any way. I just know focusing on the strife it takes to get somewhere clouds the journey it took to get there.Any way I'm starting to sound stupid so I'm going back to football. :o:

[SultanOfSix]

It is equivalent ..... the result is the same.

I am sure that this racist black preacher has hurt just as many people as a racist whit or latino preacher has.

To use anything as an excuse for such racism is excusing racism. Its a guilt driven crutch that allows racism to continue.

If we want to abolish such behavior ..... take the crutch away.

No one is excusing the behavior.

If someone punches me for no reason except that person feeling superior to me, and I punch them back, will most people tolerate my actions differently? Of course they will.

But, will they look at you in much higher regard if you turn the other cheek and walk away. Definitely.

Now, of course, the Pastor can be using "racism" of the majority as an excuse for his own "racist" views. But, I don't know what his intention was and if there were some things that drove him to say the things he did, i.e. past history, dealing closely with people who have suffered "racist" acts, etc.

[heavyg]

The question I would ask is why would I assume that I received a job where my score was lower than another candidates? How do I even know the score of the other person for me to think that it could be an issue? And if such a thing ever occurred, I would have to believe that other factors were taken into consideration besides my score.

My two degrees and years of experience allow me to safely assume that I'm a highly qualified person for any job I pursue and that any job I get is strictly based off that and nothing else. All things being equal, most hiring managers that I know, tend to go with a feel for a person and their personality as a major factor. Considering I mostly work in environments where I'm one of very few "minorities" I doubt it's because I'm filling a quota of some kind.


I ask because I have personally seen during a testing process a separate passing allowable scores for minority candidates. I saw a Candidate who was not a minority miss out for the next level of the hiring process that had a higher score than a minority who was just above the acceptable score I mentioned earlier. It has happened and still does especially for public service jobs.

My point is I think that in this day and age we should all be on equal playing ground. For the most part that is the case but as you pointed out racism still happens. And so does the filling of quotas.

I hope I did not offend you with that question. I may not have been able to put it forth the way I entended it to come accross. If I did please forgive me

[zrinkill]

If someone punches me for no reason except that person feeling superior to me, and I punch them back, will most people tolerate my actions differently? Of course they will.

But what if you turned around and punched that mans grandchildren? Which is exactly what is happening if todays whites are blamed for their forefathers actions.

That is my point man. Hopefully you can see that, because I do see yours.

[WoodysGirl]

I live in Oklahoma and find it interesting that what gets lost in all this talk about racism, is the fact that before there was this travesty called slavery for our African Americans, is the fact that many of our ancestors committed travesties on the Native American. I know as white person this has had a dramatic impact on me. It has made me be a better person and has allowed me to look at other peoples perspective, regardless of whether I agree or not.I do hope that in my children's lifetime that they can just see the fruits of past generations and not simply focus on the labor it took to get there. I'm not saying ignore the labor in any way. I just know focusing on the strife it takes to get somewhere clouds the journey it took to get there.Any way I'm starting to sound stupid so I'm going back to football. :o:But that's an absolute great point. There have been a great many sins against all kinds of races. I would never diminish what Native Americans experienced in this country against what African Americans have experienced. It's all pretty horrible.

IMO, it's not about belaboring the past, the problem is in addressing issues related to the past. Too often I see people who just want to move on. And that's been the history of this country, even in day to day life issues not related to race. "I hurt you, but I won't do it again, so forgive my issues and let's all move on."

It's not that simple...

You have people saying "Let's move on"
You have people saying "I still hurt and my pain hasn't gone away just because you said 'I'm sorry'"

And then there are those who still practice racist beliefs, which then prolongs the issues of race.


I ask because I have personally seen during a testing process a separate passing allowable scores for minority candidates. I saw a Candidate who was not a minority miss out for the next level of the hiring process that had a higher score than a minority who was just above the acceptable score I mentioned earlier. It has happened and still does especially for public service jobs. I don't believe such things are fair. But if the person with the lower score were hired, again, how do you know other factors were not considered? I know at least four hiring managers and they never rely on one thing in particular to determine whether to hire someone.

My point is I think that in this day and age we should all be on equal playing ground. For the most part that is the case but as you pointed out racism still happens. And so does the filling of quotas.Curiously I haven't seen such thing applied personally. Not disputing what you've experienced, just that most folks I know are qualified enough individuals that any job issues they experience are standard corporate-climbing B.S.

I hope I did not offend you with that question. I may not have been able to put it forth the way I entended it to come accross. If I did please forgive meNo offense taken. I'm all for having an open dialogue even if/when we disagree. I rarely venture this way simply because I don't always see open dialogue expressed. When I do, I don't mind jumping in.

But what if you turned around and punched that mans grandchildren? Which is exactly what is happening if todays whites are blamed for their forefathers actions.

That is my point man. Hopefully you can see that, because I do see yours.From my perspective, I don't think white people are being blamed for their forefathers actions. I see white people forefathers not properly addressing actions that were injust as recently as 50 years ago.

Time heals everything and 50 years isn't alot of time.

[heavyg]

I don't believe such things are fair. But if the person with the lower score were hired, again, how do you know other factors were not considered? I know at least four hiring managers and they never rely on one thing in particular to determine whether to hire someone.



See the thing is where I am talking about there was a process. The first step was a written test. If you got a certain score you moved on to the interview portion. Minorities have a lower passing score. So at that point in the process there are no other factors to be considered other than test score.

[WoodysGirl]

See the thing is where I am talking about there was a process. The first step was a written test. If you got a certain score you moved on to the interview portion. Minorities have a lower passing score. So at that point in the process there are no other factors to be considered other than test score.I'd question why this process was set up in the first place, but I know why. And depending on when it was implemented, it would make a lot of sense. When was this procedure set up? Just curious.

[zrinkill]

From my perspective, I don't think white people are being blamed for their forefathers actions. I see white people forefathers not properly addressing actions that were injust as recently as 50 years ago.

Time heals everything and 50 years isn't alot of time.

So you do not see Obama's minister's racism as a reaction of blaming the people he feels responsible?

Is his reaction to the same people that mistreated him 50 years ago, or to the grandchildren of those who mistreated him?

I do agree that 50 years is a long time to hold racism in your heart.

[heavyg]

I'd question why this process was set up in the first place, but I know why. And depending on when it was implemented, it would make a lot of sense. When was this procedure set up? Just curious.

Well is happened about 10 yrs ago. I'm not for sure its still the system as I no longer work there. But at the time I was part of the hiring process towards the end of my career there before I was injured.

[AbeBeta]

See the thing is where I am talking about there was a process. The first step was a written test. If you got a certain score you moved on to the interview portion. Minorities have a lower passing score. So at that point in the process there are no other factors to be considered other than test score.

Test scores are not error-free indicators -- often times "bands" of scores are considered equal rather than simply saying "91 is higher than 90" -- that is, you might grade the tests as A, B, C, etc and consider all As to be the same test grade.

But really, the test score matters only to the extent that it predicts job performance. Can you honestly tell me that the person who scored highest on the test is always the best at the job? You know that isn't true.

In cases wherein different standards are used it is generally because different scores are associated with different outcomes for each group -- that is, minorities who score 80 or above tend to do very well in the job whereas non-minorities who score 90 or above tend to do very well but non-minorities who score 80-89 have much higher failure rates.

[WoodysGirl]

So you do not see Obama's minister's racism as a reaction of blaming the people he feels responsible?There's alot of blame to go around in today's society.

Is his reaction to the same people that mistreated him 50 years ago, or to the grandchildren of those who mistreated him?It's to whoever's listening when you feel like your issues have not been adequately addressed over the years.

Simply put, if I have an issue on the job, I go to my supervisor. My supervisor ignored the issue...and then he leaves the job. Does it become my supervisor's problem if my issue still hasn't been addressed? I think so...at least until it's resolved.

As far as race, I feel there have been alot of policies put in place to resolve many, many issues related to systemic injustices. But whenever I feel like racism might truly be on the decline, not only from a systemic perspective, but from a human perspective, something comes along that reminds that it's not quite gone. It won't be anything near to the level as in the past, but it certainly doesn't lessen the offensiveness.

I do agree that 50 years is a long time to hold racism in your heart.Then you misunderstood. 50 years isn't long enough to think that the effects of hundreds of years of lingering racism can be completely ignored or forgotten.

Well is happened about 10 yrs ago. I'm not for sure its still the system as I no longer work there. But at the time I was part of the hiring process towards the end of my career there before I was injured.
Oh ok. Gotcha.

[ndanger]

You have people saying "Let's move on"
You have people saying "I still hurt and my pain hasn't gone away just because you said 'I'm sorry'"

And then there are those who still practice racist beliefs, which then prolongs the issues of race.


You also have people who are ashamed at the things their ancestors before them have done.And people who are ashamed at some things their race has done.I am one of those people.I can relate to the people with hurt and pain, simply because to me being ashamed of something hurts me.It causes me great sadness to see racism from any race. Hearing Rev. White's statements, for some is seen as a disgrace for the black people, for me it is a disgrace for the white people and it hurts me to my core.My hope is that my children will at some point in their life be able to look upon our founding Father's documents and not go ,yeah but .There seems to always be something generational that gets in the way of the extreme progress needed to get over the hurdle.Maybe, just maybe, Mr. Obama, is the one who can get us to run hard to the hurdle and lift us over it. Whoever we elect, will have the one of the hardest jobs ever for a President. He or she will have George W. Bush to thank for a lot of extra work for all of his ignorance. Dang ! I gotta go, danged o' kids act like kids sometimes. Especially when they are sick. C ya' later.

[Cajuncowboy]

You have people saying "Let's move on"
You have people saying "I still hurt and my pain hasn't gone away just because you said 'I'm sorry'"

And then there are those who still practice racist beliefs, which then prolongs the issues of race.


You also have people who are ashamed at the things their ancestors before them have done.And people who are ashamed at some things their race has done.I am one of those people.I can relate to the people with hurt and pain, simply because to me being ashamed of something hurts me.It causes me great sadness to see racism from any race. Hearing Rev. White's statements, for some is seen as a disgrace for the black people, for me it is a disgrace for the white people and it hurts me to my core.My hope is that my children will at some point in their life be able to look upon our founding Father's documents and not go ,yeah but .There seems to always be something generational that gets in the way of the extreme progress needed to get over the hurdle.Maybe, just maybe, Mr. Obama, is the one who can get us to run hard to the hurdle and lift us over it. Whoever we elect, will have the one of the hardest jobs ever for a President. He or she will have George W. Bush to thank for a lot of extra work for all of his ignorance. Dang ! I gotta go, danged o' kids act like kids sometimes. Especially when they are sick. C ya' later.

I don't know how you can apologize for something that you didn't do.
Honestly, I never understood the whole race thing anyway. Martin Luther King said it best when he said he looked forward to a day when his children would be judged not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I don't think anyone whose ancestors did something racist owes anyone an apology. But what they are owed is the courtesy to be treated like anyone else regardless of their skin color, religion or political beliefs.

My friendships run a rainbow of colors and my own heritage is a rainbow of colors. I'm Cajun but I have black and brown and white in my family tree. It's not about the color, but about the character.

We all have our own set of political, moral and societal beliefs and we are all entitled to them. Sometimes the debates get out of hand and names get called and such, but in the end of all if the debates one thing is for sure. We are all part of one race, the human race.

If people would look more at that instead of their skin color race, then allot of this would nonexistent for the most part.

I don't expect apologies from the white man for taking away native American land because those around now didn't do it. (I'm 1/4 Choctaw).

I don't expect apologies for the state of the bayous in Louisiana because of the infrastructure that was built (Atchafalaya River for one area).

I don't expect apologies. I expect however for those that are here now, to make this the best "Here Now" possible by treating the land with respect and by treating all it's people the same way.

Do I wish things would have been different man y years ago? Sure, what right minded person wouldn't? But it wasn't and i wasn't there to do anything about it.

Just let's all be a Human race and American and try to make it a better place than to continue pointing fingers at what was done to us in the past and saying we are disadvantaged because of it. Let's take advantage of what this country has to offer and make it a better place so our kids will be proud of us.

[Jon88]

Maybe, just maybe, Mr. Obama, is the one who can get us to run hard to the hurdle and lift us over it. Whoever we elect, will have the one of the hardest jobs ever for a President. He or she will have George W. Bush to thank for a lot of extra work for all of his ignorance. Dang ! I gotta go, danged o' kids act like kids sometimes. Especially when they are sick. C ya' later.

I treat everyone the way I want to be treated. I'm disappointed that Obama has been associated with Rev. Wright, but I think he has done some good.

[REDVOLUTION]

This will be his downfall.

In previous threads I have stated how if the clintons or the McCain camp wanted to let people go after Obama with veiled racist type attacks they would lose and Obama would just sit back and let them kill themselves with the method. And for some time that was indeed working for him.

However with this type of thing if he continues to support the man and deny that he ever heard this type of stuff he is sunk.

I just hope it is not too early and Hillary has some kind of regrouping that somehow gets her the nomination, because I want no chance at all of her winning.


Is Obama anti-american because of lousy policies and the US not taking care of its own?

OR

Is Obama anti-american on a power trip?

[silverbear]

This alone is enough to sink him and I promise you this, it will be a central theme in the general if he is nominated. If it was fair game to look at Bush's associates and friends and get all hot and bothered, then this is going to be a bell cow for the Republicans.

I have no doubt that you on the right will try real hard to make it an issue, but the plain truth is, Ayers is at best a casual acquaintance of Obama's, reports being their last face to face meeting was over 12 years ago...

Ultimately, this tempest in a teapot will not override voter anger at the war in Iraq, or voter angst over the way the economy is headed straight in the crapper as a result of misguided Republican economic policies... while you sit here imagining scenarios where your boys might be able to get over, in spite of all of this ("oooh, the Democrats will destroy each other prior to the nomination, leading to a split party and a Republican victory", or "oooh, the GOP will drag all of Obama's dirty laundry out, and the American people will hate him"), the reality is that the GOP is blamed for some very serious issues in this country, and when push comes to shove, character assassination will not overcome that very large problem...

It's a measure of how weak the ammunition is that you guys have that you talk about his "ties to a terrorist", which deliberately leaves the mistaken impression that he's had ties to ISLAMIC terrorists, the current enemy, when in fact that "terrorist" in question was an anti-war radical back in the 60s, who did some really bad stuff, but who is now a citizen living legally in this country... he still has some out-there views, but he is not a terrorist any more... and his contact with Barack Obama falls more into the "casual acquaintance" category these days... but you guys take this and try to make it sound like he's periodically sitting in on Al-Qaida meetings...

This is typical of the dishonest approach the GOP has taken to politics the last decade or two... and it is what disgusts me most about your party, the reason why I find myself voting Democratic more and more often these days... now that John Warner is retiring, it might be a long time before I vote GOP again...

[silverbear]

All I know at this point Obama, has lost all creditability with his excuse that he was not present at the services,

It's entirely possible that he was not present for any of the three sermons that have provoked this latest "scandal"... the last sermon was back in December, when he was already on the road a lot in pursuit of the nomination... the other two came while he was in the Illinois state legislature...

On a side note, Did anyone notice how John McCain, was front page news with his so call association with lobbyist, but the Obama, pastor story was buried deep into the papers.
Now I ask you is there a bias by our printed news organizations?

No, there isn't... where I live, and on the internet, this Obama story has been headline news for several days now... the McCain rumor about a relationship with his lobbyist (which I never bought) disappeared in a couple-three days, as it should have...

It's pretty sad when the press undermines the election process.

Your paranoia would be highly amusing, if it didn't seem to be epidemic among you neandercons...

[silverbear]

This will be his downfall.

In previous threads I have stated how if the clintons or the McCain camp wanted to let people go after Obama with veiled racist type attacks they would lose and Obama would just sit back and let them kill themselves with the method. And for some time that was indeed working for him.

However with this type of thing if he continues to support the man and deny that he ever heard this type of stuff he is sunk.

But he hasn't supported the man, at all... he has quickly and vigorously denounced what that "minister" had to say, and removed him from his position on the campaign...

The only thing he has refused to do is renounce the man's friendship... I actually admire that, I have friends who have views on some issues that make my blood boil, but they're still my friends...

I have no problems at all with his response to this mini-scandal... I still don't know if I'm gonna vote for him, but none of this is gonna cause me not to...

I kinda suspect that as the right makes a more concerted effort to smear Obama, I'll get pissed, and wind up voting for him just as a vote against those kinds of smear tactics... it will not be a vote that I'll cast with any real enthusiasm, though...

[silverbear]

Michelle Obama
As for whether she is finally being proud of her country for the first time, I think it's a matter of perspective. It's not about not loving the country or being unpatriotic or anything like that. To me, it's about for the first time, in my adulthood, I see all kinds of people engaged in the process. Young, old, all kinds of races. There's excitement in the air, people are talking about it at the job, in the hair salon, at Walmart, everywhere. It's a great thing.

What's weird about this, from my perspective, is this is the least excited I've been about an election in a long time... I frankly don't think any of our three choices for President will make for a good President...

My only level of excitement comes from the prospect of Mark Warner winning John Warner's Senate seat... all of sudden, the staunchly Republican Old Dominion will have a Democratic governor, and both of it's Senators will be Democrats too... Tim Kaine, Jim Webb and Mark Warner, moderate Dems all... maybe the demographics in my home state are slowly changing...

[silverbear]

Hillary and Obama have both been damaged by this nomination process. Whoever wins the nomination is going to embark on some major spin.

I don't really think that's going to be a problem... I think that no matter how split the party currently is between Obama and Clinton, once one or the other emerges victorious, they're all gonna remember that job one is to put a Democrat back in the White House...

I think the memory of Dubya will suffice to unite the Democratic party for the 08 elections... I'm not worried about them being divided come the general election...

[silverbear]

So because of that he gets a pass? Give me a freakin break!! Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong no matter who is saying it about who. So is it ok for a Black man to be racist but not ok for a White man?

And who exactly is saying it's OK for that minister to be a bigot??

Would you be mollified if Barack arranged to have that idiot of a minister publicly flogged?? What exactly is Obama supposed to do, beyond what he has already done (repudiate the remarks, and remove the minister from his campaign)??

[heavyg]

And who exactly is saying it's OK for that minister to be a bigot??

Would you be mollified if Barack arranged to have that idiot of a minister publicly flogged?? What exactly is Obama supposed to do, beyond what he has already done (repudiate the remarks, and remove the minister from his campaign)??

For one he can start telling the truth about it. A week ago he said he never personally heard those kind of statements. In his speech yesterday he said he had.

If he is so close to this Pastor does he not have enough intestinal fortitude to call him out on these types of comments? And he wants to be the leader of this country. If he can't call his friend of 20 yrs on the carpet regarding these comments how can we expect him to have the guts to call out a terrorist face to face