Think Gas is High? Try Europe

[Doomsday101]

American motorists are understandably grumbling over skyrocketing gas prices as the summer travel season approaches. But their pain hardly registers against the rage afoot in Europe these days. Fishermen, truck drivers and farmers are threatening to bring entire economic sectors to a halt with protests against crippling fuel costs. The wave of angry action is expected to spread further across Europe in coming days, despite efforts by political leaders to feel the pain and figure out how to alleviate it.

Strikes and blockades staged over the past three weeks by French fishermen spread this week to Spanish ports; Italy, Portugal, and Greece expect more of the same on Friday as mariners seek to force national governments to offset marine diesel prices, which have shot up by 40% since January. Single boat owners and entire trawler fleets face a real threat of bankruptcy.

Matters are no better on land. On Tuesday, hundreds of British truck drivers in London and Cardiff brought traffic to a crawl in a campaign to get their government to lower taxes on diesel fuel, which now costs over $11 per U.S. gallon (3.8 liters). Other businesses owners who rely heavily on gas use — including farmers, ambulance and taxi drivers, and private bus companies — have joined the protest movement or are preparing to do so.

Those labor protests reflect the hit millions of Europeans are taking at the gas pump. As American drivers groan over prices nearing $4 a gallon, the French are paying $8.67 for a gallon of super, compared to $7.10 in January, 2007. A gallon of diesel in French gas stations averages $8.54, up from $5.35 just a year ago. And in the U.K. diesel costs $11.50 per gallon, compared to around $3.90 in the U.S. Across the European Union, the average cost of a gallon of gas runs to about $8.70 — more than twice what Americans are shelling out to fill up. And Europe's dizzying fuel costs would be even worse if it weren't for the considerable appreciation of the euro and the British pound against the dollar over the past year, which has partially offset the price escalation in dollar-traded oil.

One big reason for the difference is that European governments put a much higher tax burden on fuel than the U.S. does. State and federal taxes currently make up just 11% of the pump price in the U.S., according to the Energy Information Administration; in France and the U.K., taxes account for an average of around 70%.

Given the growing chorus of angry protests, it isn't surprising that leaders across Europe have begun scurrying for ways to provide some relief at the pump. But their margin for maneuver is limited. On Tuesday, for example, French President Nicolas Sarkozy proposed suspending most value-added tax (VAT) on gas, a measure he said would mean as much as $267 million in savings per quarter to those hit hardest by fuel price increases. VAT rates on gasoline across Europe range from 15% to over 20%, so it's little wonder that Sarkozy's proposal was backed by leaders in Italy and Spain as a painless way to lower prices.

But as Sarkozy himself acknowledged, no nation among the European Union's 27 member states can make such a move without the unanimous approval of the others. Meanwhile, some observers warn that suspending VAT, like the proposed "gas holiday" for U.S. drivers, would deprive governments of sorely needed tax revenues and encourage producers to soak up most of the temporary cost cut. "Changing taxation on fuels in order to combat increasing prices would send a wrong message to producing countries," said E.U. energy spokesman Ferran Terradellas. "This would show them they could increase prices and that the citizens would have to pay."

Others suggest that such short-term efforts to reduce fuel costs send the wrong message anyway to drivers who need to cut consumption. Polls show that 70% of gas-rattled British voters are now unwilling to pay higher taxes to combat climate change. That hasn't stopped some European leaders from taking the bitter pill approach, arguing that today's pain over surging gas prices should be used to encourage longer-term environmental gain. "We don't need one-shot measures," Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet, the French secretary of state for the environment, told parliament following Sarkozy's proposal, "but rather to free ourselves from oil." True enough. But that's cold comfort for truck drivers, fishermen, and summer vacationers who can't afford to fill up in the meantime.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1809900,00.html

[Vintage]

Gas prices might be higher than what you'd prefer to pay, but obviously, they are not too high.

[Doomsday101]

Gas prices might be higher than what you'd prefer to pay, but obviously, they are not too high.

Well the big difference is the high taxes in Europe. Add to that many of the socialist governments need the tax dollars for national programs. There is no doubt the pinch we feel is every bit as much as theirs.

[BrAinPaiNt]

Well the big difference is the high taxes in Europe. Add to that many of the socialist governments need the tax dollars for national programs. There is no doubt the pinch we feel is every bit as much as theirs.

Plus I think they have a better overall public transportation system and many more choices of smaller cars with better mileage.

[dacarmelking210]

I don't think you can compare Europe and the US in this case. In Europe, everybody pretty much drives insanely gas efficient cars (Europe is LIGHTYEARS ahead of us in terms of the gas efficiency of cars), while people in the US tend ot drive larger, less gas efficient cars (i.e. SUV's/cars w/ V6 and V8 engines). So, while the prices are 'worse' in Europe, we are paying A LOT more for gas because we're forced to buy greater quantities of gas, and we are forced to travel greater distances (America is huge and people often have to drive long distances to get to work, etc..which isn't usually teh case in Europe).

[theogt]

Plus I think they have a better overall public transportation system and are more willing to drive smaller cars with better mileage.Fixed. ;)

[iceberg]

Gas prices might be higher than what you'd prefer to pay, but obviously, they are not too high.

when it costs me $70 to fill up my tank on a weekly basis for "normal" driving, it can be a bit much. factor in additional driving and so forth and it's not uncommon for someone to spend $100 a week on gas. know anyone who has ever had to budget $400 a month for gas?

now a diesel truck that takes merch to wal mart. suddenly the cost to simply get it there doubles. is that going to reflect in the price on the shelves? damn skippy.

the farmer who now has to do the same thing with the same equipment and using tractors that have never been gas friendly, his bill has doubled in the last few years and where does that cost go? in recovery of expenses so his price to sell wheat, milk, beef - whatever goes up quite a bit. who pays for that?

we do on higher prices.

we pay at the pump and in the world around us. so your total gas bill is not just what you pay when you fill up, it's making everything else go up to compensate.

[iceberg]

Plus I think they have a better overall public transportation system and many more choices of smaller cars with better mileage.

you know, i actually wondered where the busses are out here. think 20 miles to downtown dallas - now that tacks on $10 to my trip in gas alone for that night out. if a bus can get me close enough, i'll do it.

never before would i have thought about it but heck, i can get drunk at the club and take the bus back to the center station and pass out in my car there if i need to. : )

but yea, bus and trams... i will be looking into those and i imagine many will. not as a primary means of transportation but as a secondary when available.

[BrAinPaiNt]

you know, i actually wondered where the busses are out here. think 20 miles to downtown dallas - now that tacks on $10 to my trip in gas alone for that night out. if a bus can get me close enough, i'll do it.

never before would i have thought about it but heck, i can get drunk at the club and take the bus back to the center station and pass out in my car there if i need to. : )

but yea, bus and trams... i will be looking into those and i imagine many will. not as a primary means of transportation but as a secondary when available.

We used to take a bus all the time when I was in San Antonio. Saved on money and you did not have to worry about not drinking and driving.

[WoodysGirl]

when it costs me $70 to fill up my tank on a weekly basis for "normal" driving, it can be a bit much. factor in additional driving and so forth and it's not uncommon for someone to spend $100 a week on gas. know anyone who has ever had to budget $400 a month for gas?


Since I changed jobs, I budget that much a month for gas. I work a little farther out than I used to. When i worked downtown (Houston), I still paid $180-200/mo. That was before the price spikes. With the price spikes, I'd be paying 200-240/mo.

I work from home once a week to balance out the cost of gas. I live close to a Park and Ride, but it would take me 2-3 hours to get to work every day...and I can't seem to locate a van pool, which would help me out alot.

[DFWJC]

There is no doubt the pinch we feel is every bit as much as theirs.

Maybe..because we choose to drive less efficient cars. But that is our fault.

Bottom line is that if the American public is wanting to point a finger regarding the gas prices pinch, all we have to do is look in the mirror.

[AtlCB]

Maybe..because we choose to drive less efficient cars. But that is our fault.

Bottom line is that if the American public is wanting to point a finger regarding the gas prices pinch, all we have to do is look in the mirror.
Our energy policies, commodity trading, and personal decisions certainly have more to do with our high gasoline prices than anything else going on.

[iceberg]

Since I changed jobs, I budget that much a month for gas. I work a little farther out than I used to. When i worked downtown (Houston), I still paid $180-200/mo. That was before the price spikes. With the price spikes, I'd be paying 200-240/mo.

I work from home once a week to balance out the cost of gas. I live close to a Park and Ride, but it would take me 2-3 hours to get to work every day...and I can't seem to locate a van pool, which would help me out alot.

i used to carpool 4 days a week usually with a close friend. when he passed away no one out here made it easy to do that with, so i've just been on my own. recentely we have allowed more working from home and it seems funny NOT driving to work can save $10 or more.

makes me want a motorcycle.

[iceberg]

Maybe..because we choose to drive less efficient cars. But that is our fault.

Bottom line is that if the American public is wanting to point a finger regarding the gas prices pinch, all we have to do is look in the mirror.

i think that's a bit simplistic.

[WoodysGirl]

i used to carpool 4 days a week usually with a close friend. when he passed away no one out here made it easy to do that with, so i've just been on my own. recentely we have allowed more working from home and it seems funny NOT driving to work can save $10 or more.

makes me want a motorcycle.
Well most of my dev team works from home two days a week, so it's not odd at all for me to be the only one at work. The only day everyone is there is on Fridays. It's pizza day...and their weekly meeting.

After I've worked there a bit longer, I'm gonna request a 2nd day. I have to drive through two tolls each way, so staying at home saves alot of money for me. If I have a choice, I'll take working from home vs carpooling.

[theogt]

i think that's a bit simplistic.Well, anyone that drives a car that gets under 20 MPG shouldn't complain one bit.

[AtlCB]

Well, anyone that drives a car that gets under 20 MPG shouldn't complain one bit.or rides around in a stretch limo or files around in a private jet or lives in a large, uneconomic house.......looks like Mr. Global Warming himself can't complain

If the Warner-Liebermann bill passes, we will all be forced to help out Mr. Global Warming and his rising energy costs by purchasing carbon credits from one of his companies.

[iceberg]

Well, anyone that drives a car that gets under 20 MPG shouldn't complain one bit.

people buy what they can afford. now that gas is so high yes, it comes into play. but not many 20mpg cars can double on farms for truck duty. not everyone "fits" into a kia rio.

there's a lot of valid reasons out there that will take time to sort through. i just don't see a simplistic view like this as logical.

[theogt]

people buy what they can afford. now that gas is so high yes, it comes into play. but not many 20mpg cars can double on farms for truck duty. not everyone "fits" into a kia rio.

there's a lot of valid reasons out there that will take time to sort through. i just don't see a simplistic view like this as logical.People buy what they want to buy. Then ***** about the costs. If someone wants a fuel efficient car, they can get one, for just about any job.

[Doomsday101]

Maybe..because we choose to drive less efficient cars. But that is our fault.

Bottom line is that if the American public is wanting to point a finger regarding the gas prices pinch, all we have to do is look in the mirror.

I disagree I know many like myself where driving is not a luxury it is part of our job. We pay less no doubt because our gas it not taxed like it is in Europe but a lot of those taxes do go for other cost that they rely on the Government for yet we take care of out of our own pocket here things like health care. Right now those in Europe whose job is also not a luxury but a major part of their jobs are now protesting these high cost that is hurting them.

[iceberg]

People buy what they want to buy. Then ***** about the costs. If someone wants a fuel efficient car, they can get one, for just about any job.

i could. but my nephew would be buying a 10 year old car. i'm sure NOW gas would be a focus. 2 years ago when he bought it, no. is he still paying for it? yep. easy to get out of? nope.

i understand and to a large part agree, theogt. i'm just saying it's not clear/cut and dry.

[Bizwah]

Well, anyone that drives a car that gets under 20 MPG shouldn't complain one bit.

I disagree.

What do you say to families with lots of kids? I know a family that had quadruplets. They're ten now....I can't imagine them trying to fit their kids into a Toyota Camry. They drive a minivan......it MIGHT get 20 MPGs.

Do you say, "screw em'...they should drive a more fuel efficient car.."?

[iceberg]

I disagree.

What do you say to families with lots of kids? I know a family that had quadruplets. They're ten now....I can't imagine them trying to fit their kids into a Toyota Camry. They drive a minivan......it MIGHT get 20 MPGs.

Do you say, "screw em'...they should drive a more fuel efficient car.."?

i'm sure with the price of gas they'll be looking but yes, this is why i say it's not as easy as a simple line of "good/bad".

[theogt]

I disagree.

What do you say to families with lots of kids? I know a family that had quadruplets. They're ten now....I can't imagine them trying to fit their kids into a Toyota Camry. They drive a minivan......it MIGHT get 20 MPGs.

Do you say, "screw em'...they should drive a more fuel efficient car.."?I say, you should have thought about the "costs" of having too many kids before you had sex.

You can easily get a car that rides 6 with better than 20 MPG.

[Bizwah]

I say, you should have thought about the "costs" of having too many kids before you had sex.

You can easily get a car that rides 6 with better than 20 MPG.

Surely you're not this stupid. I'm assuming you're saying that tongue-in-cheek...to get a laugh.

No one plans to have four kids at once. And they have five kids total. Try finding a car that seats seven that gets better than 20 MPG.

It isn't easy.

[iceberg]

I say, you should have thought about the "costs" of having too many kids before you had sex.

You can easily get a car that rides 6 with better than 20 MPG.

now i think you're just chain yanking.

[theogt]

Surely you're not this stupid. I'm assuming you're saying that tongue-in-cheek...to get a laugh.

No one plans to have four kids at once. And they have five kids total. Try finding a car that seats seven that gets better than 20 MPG.

It isn't easy.You asked, "What do you say to families with lots of kids?" The quadruplets are just one possible scenario. Obviously they couldn't mitigate their circumstances in terms of number of kids, but they can still get a 6 person vehicle with 20+ MPG. If they drive a gas-hogging SUV, for the sake of driving a gas-hogging SUV, then they should stop *****ing.

But most people that ***** about gasoline aren't in that rare scenario. They're just normal people that ***** because it's a national pastime.

[iceberg]

You asked, "What do you say to families with lots of kids?" The quadruplets are just one possible scenario. Obviously they couldn't mitigate their circumstances in terms of number of kids, but they can still get a 6 person vehicle with 20+ MPG. If they drive a gas-hogging SUV, for the sake of driving a gas-hogging SUV, then they should stop *****ing.

But most people that ***** about gasoline aren't in that rare scenario. They're just normal people that ***** because it's a national pastime.

the trouble is - $30k cars are not easy to pay for when you have 2 new kids all of a sudden. 2 years into a 6 year note on the minivan for the other 2 kids and now suddenly you need a vehicle but getting out of the minivan makes that $30k car $37k w/paying off the note now.

you're acting as if life happens on a dime and so easy to plan that far out.

however, i do agree people whine too much so i'm shutting up cause i say that all the time too, so i do understand the basis of the statement.

[theogt]

the trouble is - $30k cars are not easy to pay for when you have 2 new kids all of a sudden. 2 years into a 6 year note on the minivan for the other 2 kids and now suddenly you need a vehicle but getting out of the minivan makes that $30k car $37k w/paying off the note now.

you're acting as if life happens on a dime and so easy to plan that far out.

however, i do agree people whine too much so i'm shutting up cause i say that all the time too, so i do understand the basis of the statement.Sadly, planning ahead before having kids is a novel concept for most people.

[iceberg]

Sadly, planning ahead before having kids is a novel concept for most people.

so everyone who ever planned it never had something "go wrong"? sure they did.

no matter how narrow you try to pin this, it's not a black white issue.

but now what if they did plan for kids, however the husbands job got sent to india for 15% of what he did it for. now even their 2 and a half year old minivan can't be paid for easily and the only thing saving them is they DID plan for kids. just not india.

or gas doubling in price.

or the counter effect that had on the rest of the economy.

which is why his job went to india in the 1st place.

you telling me they should have planned for all that? if you can do this PM me, i want you managing my retirement fund!

[theogt]

i want you managing my retirement fund!Might as well invest in index funds. The return would be just as good after I extract my management fees. ;)

[Bizwah]

I think most people that choose to have kids realize that things will be tight when they have them. But it still doesn't make it any easier to find a car that can fit their needs....that's affordable...that gets decent gas mileage.

[burmafrd]

Gotta remember that OGT is very rigid. Its his way or the highway- no middle ground.

[theogt]

I think most people that choose to have kids realize that things will be tight when they have them. But it still doesn't make it any easier to find a car that can fit their needs....that's affordable...that gets decent gas mileage.Turns out that typically the cars with the best gas mileage ARE THE MOST AFFORDABLE.

[burmafrd]

And also the smallest and quite often the weakest when in crashes as well.

[iceberg]

Might as well invest in index funds. The return would be just as good after I extract my management fees. ;)

heh. good shot.

[iceberg]

Gotta remember that OGT is very rigid. Its his way or the highway- no middle ground.

you'd not know middle ground if you fell over faced drunk smack dab in the center of the holy land of middle ground.

[Vintage]

Gotta remember, libs like burm like gov't regulation of prices when gas gets "high".....otherwise, they PRETEND to hate gov't regulation bec. it won't benefit them....

[burmafrd]

Now vintage you did not have the smiley face or indicate that was sarcasm.
Calling me a Lib is fightin words.

[burmafrd]

Thats right= I happen to think the middle ground is mostly populated by those too afraid to really make hard decisions.

[iceberg]

Thats right= I happen to think the middle ground is mostly populated by those too afraid to really make hard decisions.

gee - which makes you right. who EVER would have thought that up?

middle ground is also a pain in the kahiney cause you're also trying to get the two mule-headed sides to compromise and get off their high-one-way-horse. it's an *easy* decision to wrap yourself in ignorance on either side and go WAH! WE MUST DO THIS ONE WAY!!!!

and that's what the extremes on both sides do. ain't got crap to do with making a decision it's only got crap to do with "i'm right and you're wrong" cause that's how extremes roll. burm, you roll around like a gorilla beating his chest flinging big poo chunks everywhere and think if someone doesn't get it more and louder poo will do the trick.

the middle ground is what moves this world forward in compromise despite the arguing and bickering of the freaking hardheads on either *extreme* side who simply hate the "other" side for no other reason that it *is* the other side. easy decisions are "Wah - I Want This NOW!!!" and that's extreme. hard ones are what puts the extremes together cause it's the right thing to do which is never known to be easy.

hard decisions my arse.