It's Not Over [Archive] - Dallas Cowboys Forum

LaTunaNostra

11-08-2004, 09:27 AM

Jimz31

11-08-2004, 09:31 AM

Ummm....it IS over.

It was the frickin' BENGALS that we lost to.

I like your positive attitude, I really do. But, it just ain't happenin'.

DoomsDayD

11-08-2004, 09:34 AM

i would love to be optimistic on this,but i cant. The way we played and the coaching i just dont see it happening. And by any outside chance we do have what would it mean to make the playoffs and play like this. I dont mind losing,it happens but the way we are losing is a disgrace. No heart,no soul,no fire.

Eddie

11-08-2004, 09:34 AM

LTN, that RI water must be crystal clear from a shining lake or something. I wouldn't mind a drink either.

You're right, it's not totally over, but Custer thought he had a chance also.

It's over. Let's see what we have in the young guys. Bench anyone over 30. Simple as that.

There's gonna be some serious bleeding this offseason. That's a good thing. I'm tired of the same cast of sorry losers disgracing the silver star.

MichaelWinicki

11-08-2004, 09:35 AM

The chances of making the playoffs, especially considering the way we lost yesterday, are minute. It's hard to believe the team that took the field yesterday could rebound to beat a Pop Warner club much less the Eagles.

But the reality is, well, this:

Philly (7-1), Minny (5-2), Atlanta (6-2), and Seattle (5-3) currently lead their divisions.

But beneath them is ONE winning team, the Jints, at 5-3.

A slew of others all at 4-4, or one game behind them at 3-5.

Dallas and the Skins, 3-5 , Detroit and Green Bay 4-4, and Chicago now 3-5.

New Orleans and Tampa Bay, 3-5, St Louis, 4-4, and Arizona 3-5.

Only Carolina and San Francisco at 1-7 are truely, if not mathematically, out of it.

I am no stats fiend, but I do know even if we grant one wild card berth to the Giants, one other team has to rise above that pack of 4-4, 3-5.

Can we do it? The way we played yesterday answers with a resounding NO.

But............................

And honestly B. I don't see the benefit of just eeking into playoffs. I really don't. This team has massive problems that can only be fixed with better personnel. And better personnel starts with a good draft and a good draft starts with a good draft position. Plus we need to see if any of the young guys can play and I seriously doubt with the mistakes that young guys will make that we could go 6-2 the rest of the way. Hell, even with the vets we aren't going 6-2.

Juke99

11-08-2004, 09:36 AM

It's over, if only because we can see how bad this team is...regardless of whether or not EVERY break goes our way and we luck our way into the playoffs...it's still over...

bad, old roster...that is probably going to play older as the season progresses...

Time for the young blood...

wileedog

11-08-2004, 09:39 AM

The real question is not if we are mathmatically eliminated, its if we are better served from a philosophical standpoint of trying to beat those odds to somehow make the playoffs (where we are in all probability bounced in 1) or doing whatever is necessary to make us a better team in 2005.

After 2 blow outs in 3 weeks against substandard competition, I think the choice is rather clear. If anyone doesn't think so, then the beating coming Monday Night should convince them.

OLDSCHOOL

11-08-2004, 09:40 AM

She has to be talking about the Jets. Because the Boys are done, the fork has been there since Feb.

Kittymama

11-08-2004, 09:43 AM

Sadly, I do think we're out of it. However, I was thinking the same way yesterday. Look at the teams who lost yesterday--the Giants to the BEARS?!, Detroit to the SKINS?!, KC to TAMPA BAY?!, the Jets to the BILLS?!, New Orleans blown out, etc. The reality is that there are 3 teams (New England, Philly, Pittsburgh) who are genuinely good. There are a few who suck or have so many injuries they just don't have a chance (Miami, Carolina, SFO, Tampa Bay). Everyone else is slopping around in the middle, good one week & bad the next. Some have a slightly better edge than others (Giants, Seahawks, Vikings, Indy, Ravens) but even they're losing games they shouldn't. With everyone else, it comes down to staying healthy, catching a player who's hot (San Diego), or just getting that lucky "it" (like Dallas last year). I think we've just got too many injuries, & are just too demoralized right now make the playoffs--but I'm still hopeful. What I'm still hoping for is that the team "gets it" at some point, & figures out how to start winning. It may not mean a winning season, but with all his other disaster teams (including his last Jets team) they finally found a spark & played for pride if nothing else which gave them momentum for the following year.

Dye

11-08-2004, 09:45 AM

this team isn't going anywhere. although statistically they're still in it, they're morally beatup. i don't like parcell's approach to not trusting players who should be playing more. damn coach is freak'n stubborn and set in his old ways. man, the only way you can earn these players trust is for them to play.

i think the coaching staff lost this team after the loss to pittsburg. kind of like giants' situation last year after losing to us - just morally defeated!

Midswat

11-08-2004, 09:59 AM

LTN was just kidding guys . . .

It's over.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled abysmal football team . . .

LaTunaNostra

11-08-2004, 10:07 AM

Jarv

11-08-2004, 10:22 AM

i know, i know, i know

The ways we lose, my god, the total beating up by Green Bay, the dumbarse way to the Steelers, the faulty game plan in Minny, the Giants give away, and worst yet, yesterday's..whatever it was

It's just so HARD to let it go.

We spend all off season here, going over the past season, analyzing every bit of what happened, (ad nauseum on Carter lol). Free agency rolls around and we are at every news site poring over FAs, the draft we reach a new level of addiction.

We wait for training camp and live vicariously through it, nitpicking every word, going over every move, again and again, predicting, suggesting, rejoicing, complaining.

We live for the team. We live here.

To have to let it go, the playoff shot, is just so hard to do when we are only
at mid season.

I can let it go for myself, as a fanatical fan..I need to get a life :p

But for the players, playing thru eight more games this way, it rips my heart out.

I feel so bad for them.

LTN, When I left the Georgetown Saloon yesterday (I taped the game), I saw this fat lady singing...Didn't know what it meant at the time. But I got it now.

Just thought I'd pass that on for ya. Of course, she coulda just been late for the Yankee season.

MichaelWinicki

11-08-2004, 10:22 AM

i know, i know, i know

The ways we lose, my god, the total beating up by Green Bay, the dumbarse way to the Steelers, the faulty game plan in Minny, the Giants give away, and worst yet, yesterday's..whatever it was

It's just so HARD to let it go.

We spend all off season here, going over the past season, analyzing every bit of what happened, (ad nauseum on Carter lol). Free agency rolls around and we are at every news site poring over FAs, the draft we reach a new level of addiction.

We wait for training camp and live vicariously through it, nitpicking every word, going over every move, again and again, predicting, suggesting, rejoicing, complaining.

We live for the team. We live here.

To have to let it go, the playoff shot, is just so hard to do when we are only
at mid season.

I can let it go for myself, as a fanatical fan..I need to get a life :p

But for the players, playing thru eight more games this way, it rips my heart out.

I feel so bad for them.

Why feel bad for them Barb?

They brought in upon themselves. The whole organization from Jerry & Bill right down the line (a fish DOES rot from the head down), and the players have just followed suit.

I'm sure none of those players will feel so terrible that it will cause them not to cash their game checks. When they start turning down their pay due to their lousy performance I'll start feeling a little bad for them.

Doomsday101

11-08-2004, 10:48 AM

The chances of making the playoffs, especially considering the way we lost yesterday, are minute. It's hard to believe the team that took the field yesterday could rebound to beat a Pop Warner club much less the Eagles.

But the reality is, well, this:

Philly (7-1), Minny (5-2), Atlanta (6-2), and Seattle (5-3) currently lead their divisions.

But beneath them is ONE winning team, the Jints, at 5-3.

A slew of others all at 4-4, or one game behind them at 3-5.

Dallas and the Skins, 3-5 , Detroit and Green Bay 4-4, and Chicago now 3-5.

New Orleans and Tampa Bay, 3-5, St Louis, 4-4, and Arizona 3-5.

Only Carolina and San Francisco at 1-7 are truely, if not mathematically, out of it.

I am no stats fiend, but I do know even if we grant one wild card berth to the Giants, one other team has to rise above that pack of 4-4, 3-5.

Can we do it? The way we played yesterday answers with a resounding NO.

But............................

I have never been one to give up on a season and don't plan to start now. Odds are totally aginst us and with the way this team has played I don't blame those who do give up on the season but I will not join that crowd. That is just the way I am and have always been, you continue to fight until all hope is gone

TheHustler

11-08-2004, 11:00 AM

Mathematically we aren't out of it, but anyone can see that the way we are playing, we've got no chance. We need a change, and it's gotta be something big.

Sportsbabe

11-08-2004, 11:02 AM

Yes it is. ;)

Sportsbabe

11-08-2004, 11:03 AM

Mathematically we aren't out of it, but anyone can see that the way we are playing, we've got no chance. We need a change, and it's gotta be something big.

Agreed. Something big like a fully grown elephant running down the aisle of my office with a mosquito on it's back. Yeah, big like that :)

Sportsbabe

11-08-2004, 11:08 AM

But for the players, playing thru eight more games this way, it rips my heart out.

I feel so bad for them.

That's where I'm puzzled with myself. I don't feel bad for this team. I only feel sympathy for Roy, Jason and the young guys who have not been given a chance. Everybody else deserves what they are getting. We are boring and lackluster. I look at all the other bad teams in the league and we put them to shame. We do not look like a team who cares. We are the worse bad team in the league :eek:

LaTunaNostra

11-08-2004, 11:09 AM

Why feel bad for them Barb?

They brought in upon themselves. The whole organization from Jerry & Bill right down the line (a fish DOES rot from the head down), and the players have just followed suit.

I'm sure none of those players will feel so terrible that it will cause them not to cash their game checks. When they start turning down their pay due to their lousy performance I'll start feeling a little bad for them.

I guess it's mostly my bleeding heart temperment or maternal instinct, Mikey. :)
Or more likely my teacher's instinct to feel she/he has failed more than the student. I identify with Bill. Your job, your life is to put your charges in position to succeed. You don't, and you failed much more than they did.

Sure, sometimes it is the student's fault and totally. The procrastinating lazy Blade who self-satisfied, refused to come to camp in shape. The selfish AB, or the give-me-one-last-shot Eaton...I have no pity for them.

But the others - the revolving circle of DBs, mostly kids who probably ARE playing to the best of their abilities, and it still isn't good enough, the talents like Roy whose best skills are dulled by the need to do what other can't, the guys who WANT it, want it bad, like Dan and Terry and Darren, who have to watch helplessly, knowing they can't do anything to help .

And even the good players who are screwing up - like Flo and LA yesterday, and Key. Pressing, trying to do too much, or just making mistakes that on another team could be compenated for by other players stepping up. No one can carry ANYONE here and sometimes on a team, you do have to carry one another. No one is perfect, and teamwork makes up or indivdual deficiencies. But the holes are so many, the water pouring thru so many places, the tide can't be stemmed.

I know the players make big money, and no one is going to send Jerry back his check. But I have heard too many players speak to what pride and winning means to think they are not suffering - bad right now. Beating up on themselves mentally and doubting their worth, and abilities.

This falls on Bill, and should. He has not put his players in a position to win, whether thru personnel assessment errors, or schemes, or game planning, or play calling , or just not filling enough holes to leak rather than flood range.

Any reasonable critique right now he gets, imo, is deserved. I know he is his harshest critic, and his statements over the years make it clear he teaches accountability in his students but the buck stops with him for team effort and performance.

So yah, my heart does go out to the players- most of them anyway- I hate thinking of them looking in a mirror and saying "loser". That psychological element of "being beaten down" that Tuna has often alluded to - well I really hope they don't have to take it with them into the off season.

31WillHammerU

11-08-2004, 11:09 AM

It was over the day VT signed on. What is Bill really hiding here?

* Henson signed
* VT signed as insurance...
* Quincy is the man until....
* Quincy looses stash VT becomes king until...

We have been playing for 2005 since when?

MichaelWinicki

11-08-2004, 11:11 AM

Everlastingxxx

11-08-2004, 11:14 AM

You know, Parcells said he felt bad for the Owner by how they played...Hey Parcells...you should feel bad for us fans to have to watch this team play. I wasted 3 hours of my life watching that pathetic performance yesterday.

MichaelWinicki

11-08-2004, 11:19 AM

I guess it's mostly my bleeding heart temperment or maternal instinct, Mikey. :)
Or more likely my teacher's instinct to feel she/he has failed more than the student. I identify with Bill. Your job, your life is to put your charges in position to succeed. You don't, and you failed much more than they did.

Sure, sometimes it is the student's fault and totally. The procrastinating lazy Blade who self-satisfied, refused to come to camp in shape. The selfish AB, or the give-me-one-last-shot Eaton...I have no pity for them.

But the others - the revolving circle of DBs, mostly kids who probably ARE playing to the best of their abilities, and it still isn't good enough, the talents like Roy whose best skills are dulled by the need to do what other can't, the guys who WANT it, want it bad, like Dan and Terry and Darren, who have to watch helplessly, knowing they can't do anything to help .

And even the good players who are screwing up - like Flo and LA yesterday, and Key. Pressing, trying to do too much, or just making mistakes that on another team could be compenated for by other players stepping up. No one can carry ANYONE here and sometimes on a team, you do have to carry one another. No one is perfect, and teamwork makes up or indivdual deficiencies. But the holes are so many, the water pouring thru so many places, the tide can't be stemmed.

I know the players make big money, and no one is going to send Jerry back his check. But I have heard too many players speak to what pride and winning means to think they are not suffering - bad right now. Beating up on themselves mentally and doubting their worth, and abilities.

This falls on Bill, and should. He has not put his players in a position to win, whether thru personnel assessment errors, or schemes, or game planning, or play calling , or just not filling enough holes to leak rather than flood range.

Any reasonable critique right now he gets, imo, is deserved. I know he is his harshest critic, and his statements over the years make it clear he teaches accountability in his students but the buck stops with him for team effort and performance.

So yah, my heart does go out to the players- most of them anyway- I hate thinking of them looking in a mirror and saying "loser". That psychological element of "being beaten down" that Tuna has often alluded to - well I really hope they don't have to take it with them into the off season.

Barb, what do think of Bill constantly using the "stupid" reference to the team... will the continued use of that word cause problems for him and his relationship with the players?

Sportsbabe

11-08-2004, 11:22 AM

31WillHammerU

11-08-2004, 11:23 AM

Juke99

11-08-2004, 11:28 AM

Barb, what do think of Bill constantly using the "stupid" reference to the team... will the continued use of that word cause problems for him and his relationship with the players?

Geez, I could deal with it if he hadn't said it to the media...that would bug me as a player...

The other thing that would bug me is the "them/I" stuff...he said, "We're too stupid," he said. "I can't put anything in their hands. And every time I try to put it in their hands, we screw it up. It's my fault. I just shouldn't even do it."

Now, he says "It's my fault" but look at the context...basically he is saying "I have the right plan but it's my fault for trusting such stupid players to execute"

Yowza...

For me, whether or not the players react poorly, I think that Parcells' comments all year have been very telling about his attitude...not good.

AdamJT13

11-08-2004, 11:38 AM

I have never been one to give up on a season and don't plan to start now. Odds are totally aginst us and with the way this team has played I don't blame those who do give up on the season but I will not join that crowd. That is just the way I am and have always been, you continue to fight until all hope is gone

Hopefully, that's the way our coaches and players are, too. If we have a bunch of quitters on the team, we'll never win anything.

Doomsday101

11-08-2004, 11:49 AM

Hopefully, that's the way our coaches and players are, too. If we have a bunch of quitters on the team, we'll never win anything.

I agree. If you just lay down and quit nothing will ever go your way. I have always felt that you continue to fight to the bitter end no matter how strong the voices of opposition are or how bad the odds are stacked against you. I had this attitude when I played sports be it football, baseball or any other sports I have been involved in. I have always be a highly competitive person who is never willing to give an inch.

wileedog

11-08-2004, 11:52 AM

Geez, I could deal with it if he hadn't said it to the media...that would bug me as a player...

The other thing that would bug me is the "them/I" stuff...he said, "We're too stupid," he said. "I can't put anything in their hands. And every time I try to put it in their hands, we screw it up. It's my fault. I just shouldn't even do it."

Now, he says "It's my fault" but look at the context...basically he is saying "I have the right plan but it's my fault for trusting such stupid players to execute"

Yowza...

For me, whether or not the players react poorly, I think that Parcells' comments all year have been very telling about his attitude...not good.

In fairness to Bill, it *is* the players screwing up.

Look at the 76 yd TD play. Dat lost the coverage on a 3rd string TE and Scott (I believe) ran past the play to go cover a WR. What is Bill supposed to do, run out there and start covering people himself?

There's plenty more examples, like Brady overpursing on the Ahmed Green run (and Dixon taking a terrible angle), or countless stupid penalties and false starts. Penalties have been a focus since Bill walked in the door here, and he has had in the past plenty of teams who were extremely disciplned in that department. If the same coaching worked on all of those players, but not these, whose fault is it, the teacher or the students?

I'm not saying there is no fault on Bill, but he has a reputation of telling players exactly what he feels about them. If they are running around like chicken's without a head, should he coddle them, baby them, tell them "its ok, we'll get 'em next week."?

Because I bet that's what Campo would do.

And as for the point he shouldn't bring it up in the media, it should be behind closed doors, my bet is he has already said this a hundred times behind closed doors. We all saw yesterday how well that's been working. Perhaps some public accountability is in order here.

Bill took it all on his own shoulders after the Green Bay fiasco. The team responded by beating Detroit, but c'mon, that's Detroit. Then they went out against a terrible Bengal team and mailed it in.

Maybe Bill just decided he's not going to take the heat for everybody anymore. I don't blame him.

THEHEREAFTER

11-08-2004, 11:54 AM

I Don't Want To See The "p" Word On This Board Again For The Entire Season. It's Like A Cruel Joke! Please Don't Do It!! I Beg Of All You Guys!

Doomsday101

11-08-2004, 11:56 AM

In fairness to Bill, it *is* the players screwing up.

Look at the 76 yd TD play. Dat lost the coverage on a 3rd string TE and Scott (I believe) ran past the play to go cover a WR. What is Bill supposed to do, run out there and start covering people himself?

There's plenty more examples, like Brady overpursing on the Ahmed Green run (and Dixon taking a terrible angle), or countless stupid penalties and false starts. Penalties have been a focus since Bill walked in the door here, and he has had in the past plenty of teams who were extremely disciplned in that department. If the same coaching worked on all of those players, but not these, whose fault is it, the teacher or the students?

I'm not saying there is no fault on Bill, but he has a reputation of telling players exactly what he feels about them. If they are running around like chicken's without a head, should he coddle them, baby them, tell them "its ok, we'll get 'em next week."?

Because I bet that's what Campo would do.

And as for the point he shouldn't bring it up in the media, it should be behind closed doors, my bet is he has already said this a hundred times behind closed doors. We all saw yesterday how well that's been working. Perhaps some public accountability is in order here.

Bill took it all on his own shoulders after the Green Bay fiasco. The team responded by beating Detroit, but c'mon, that's Detroit. Then they went out against a terrible Bengal team and mailed it in.

Maybe Bill just decided he's not going to take the heat for everybody anymore. I don't blame him.

I agree with you and it is not like Bill is trying to take himself off the hook, he is taking the blame. When he says this team was poorly coached and poorly motivated in yesterdays game

LaTunaNostra

11-08-2004, 11:56 AM

Barb, what do think of Bill constantly using the "stupid" reference to the team... will the continued use of that word cause problems for him and his relationship with the players?
Mike, it's not elementary school where a teacher calling a student stupid could scar him for life, or set up a self fulfilling prophecy.

These are adult, and tough ones, who use rough language to and with each other.

One thing Bill is a master at is what to say and how to say it. Ffor every "Jap play" and "she", I have heard 100 examples of sound motivational, or conversational discourse.

He used the third person singular "we", meaning you may have screwed up individuallly, or had a great personal game, but we are ALL in this together.

I ask myself - if I put myself into a player's shoes yesterday - what is it I want to hear from my HC after the game? I may want silence but I know I ain't getting it. :rolleyes: Next best thing is the finger pointed broadly, but with the message we lost because of something that is correctable.

Stupidity, despite its ubiquitious quality, IS correctable. Certainly stupidity in football terms is.

I doubt Bill's words offended any player, tho we may not like them.

"Stupid" is just publically acceptable term for "dumbarses", and players over the years have thrived under such a man-to-man approach. Certainly the team did LAST year.

Signals

11-08-2004, 11:59 AM

We have a sayin' out here at The Ranch.

" Let's go set some bear traps, we'll have a better chance of catchin' some balls than we did in the game." -Jerry Jones

DStely8

11-08-2004, 12:01 PM

oh it's official now

http://www.williamsonpsp.com/chronicles/2004/01/20_iowa/fatlady_sm.jpg

Sorry it's so cliche but I was just so tempted to do it

LaTunaNostra

11-08-2004, 12:03 PM

oh it's official now

http://www.williamsonpsp.com/chronicles/2004/01/20_iowa/fatlady_sm.jpg

Sorry it's so cliche but I was just so tempted to do it
LMAO!

The resemblance to Bill is striking!

Juke99

11-08-2004, 12:07 PM

In fairness to Bill, it *is* the players screwing up.

.

In fairness to Bill, it's his players. He picked them. Now he's po'ed at how they are performing.

Interesting.

I make a horrible decision to hire several marginal performers at work and then complain about how poorly they are performing. Interesting. Nothing like "the buck stops over there"

Bach

11-08-2004, 12:08 PM

Hopefully, that's the way our coaches and players are, too. If we have a bunch of quitters on the team, we'll never win anything.

Playing Drew doesn't = quitting.

Regardless of who is on the field, I would expect them to all try and win.

To me it's totally futile to keep startng guys like Vinny, Eddie, Richie etc. They aren't winning and they won't be part of the team in the near future either.

donovan4prez

11-08-2004, 12:37 PM

It is officially over 'boyz!

LaTunaNostra

11-08-2004, 12:43 PM

It is officially over 'boyz!
Donovan, unless you want it to be offically over for YOU here, after just two posts, mind your manners in the Zone.

If it's smack (within limits) you want, go to the smack zone.

If it's real football talk, you will find it here, and you are welcome.

But keep it civil.

Kittymama

11-08-2004, 12:44 PM

I agree. If you just lay down and quit nothing will ever go your way. I have always felt that you continue to fight to the bitter end no matter how strong the voices of opposition are or how bad the odds are stacked against you. I had this attitude when I played sports be it football, baseball or any other sports I have been involved in. I have always be a highly competitive person who is never willing to give an inch.

BP doesn't have an ounce of quit in him. I think he's incredibly frustrated--with himself as much as anyone. Some can't be put on him. It has to just drive him crazy when a guy like LA, who to be fair has played pretty solidly this season, is doing something dumb. You can't blame that on a novice player or not knowing what to do. But it has to be mystifying that they're doing that. They take a step ahead with the Detroit game, then a big step backwards with this one. Very frustrating. But quit? Not Bill. I remember a PC last year when something like that came up. The reporters were talking about whether a team can get a loser mentality & not be able to shake it. He said that's his biggest fear, because he's seen it happen. So he probably is frustrated & afraid that this could be affecting his team--but I doubt he's going to just throw in the towel & give up. He's going to scrap for any win he can get.

Bababooey

11-08-2004, 12:46 PM

Yeah......

Its over

CanadianCowboysFan

11-08-2004, 12:47 PM

I agree. If you just lay down and quit nothing will ever go your way. I have always felt that you continue to fight to the bitter end no matter how strong the voices of opposition are or how bad the odds are stacked against you. I had this attitude when I played sports be it football, baseball or any other sports I have been involved in. I have always be a highly competitive person who is never willing to give an inch.

I agree and while I might think they are playing out the string, I certainly hope the team does not feel that way. I know I will be screaming at the tv as loudly on January 2 as I was yesterday. While I am not looking as forward to December 6 as I was say in September, I still am counting the days until the game in Seattle.

Stranger things have been known to happen for sure. If say by chance, the Vikings beat the Packers while the Seahawks beat the Rams. With a miracle win against the Eagles, we would be tied with them and possible the Lionesses if they lose next week as well.

I was spoiled last season with a playoff game and I want another ;)

Kittymama

11-08-2004, 12:50 PM

In fairness to Bill, it's his players. He picked them. Now he's po'ed at how they are performing.

Interesting.

I make a horrible decision to hire several marginal performers at work and then complain about how poorly they are performing. Interesting. Nothing like "the buck stops over there"

No, he didn't pick them. He picked some of them. And you can nitpick all you want, but most of the ones he picked have played pretty well. Gonna tell me that Anderson, Campbell, Glenn, Glover, Johnson, etc., haven't played well? Vinny had a bad game yesterday, but he's played pretty well--& a heck of a lot better than the high-priced FAs Brunell & Collins have played. Hey, even Warner looked pretty bad yesterday. The ones who get singled out are 2--Wiley & George. He inherited most of them (like the defense that's being so criticized right now). The "marginal" players who've come in (Ward, etc.) have come in because of injuries. Now, unless you want to start blaming injuries on Parcells too, that's reality. Show me a team in the league right now who isn't bringing in guys off the street because of injuries right now.

blindzebra

11-08-2004, 12:51 PM

While we still have a shot, the writing is on the wall.

We had sub-500 talent last year and stayed healthy and got a ton of breaks. We added some talent this year, but injuries and STUPID players have weakened the roster, and those breaks have been bouncing the other way.

The choice is should we keep fighting for .500 and an outside shot at the playoffs only to turn over the reigns late when it's ugly, or start fresh with honestly telling the players that this is about more than this season. Challenge the vets to raise their game with the young player, and play for their jobs NEXT year.

Those that quit are not worth having.

wileedog

11-08-2004, 12:57 PM

In fairness to Bill, it's his players. He picked them. Now he's po'ed at how they are performing.

Interesting.

I make a horrible decision to hire several marginal performers at work and then complain about how poorly they are performing. Interesting. Nothing like "the buck stops over there"

Are you just not listening when Bill keeps saying they are "poorly coached"?

I have yet to see Bill not shoulder part of the blame, and as I said afer the Green Bay game he took all of it.

And did he pick all of them? I thought "Draftmaster Jerry" was still GM?

Look, I'm not trying to make excuses for the guy, but you are interpreting one thing he said as "I'm great, the players suck." I think he's said on numerous occasions "we all suck.", he's just stopped covering for them. And probaly he's doing that on purpose as well.

Lastly, your original point was that you don't think the players will appreciate being called 'stupid' and won't play for Bill. Would they like it anymore if Bill said "Yeah, I really screwed up when I signed a bunch of these guys. They really aren't very good after all. My bad." Will that turn things around?

Juke99

11-08-2004, 01:07 PM

Are you just not listening when Bill keeps saying they are "poorly coached"?

I have yet to see Bill not shoulder part of the blame, and as I said afer the Green Bay game he took all of it.

And did he pick all of them? I thought "Draftmaster Jerry" was still GM?

Look, I'm not trying to make excuses for the guy, but you are interpreting one thing he said as "I'm great, the players suck." I think he's said on numerous occasions "we all suck.", he's just stopped covering for them. And probaly he's doing that on purpose as well.

Lastly, your original point was that you don't think the players will appreciate being called 'stupid' and won't play for Bill. Would they like it anymore if Bill said "Yeah, I really screwed up when I signed a bunch of these guys. They really aren't very good after all. My bad." Will that turn things around?

Helllllllo? I didn't make the comment that I pasted into my thread, Parcells did.

And do me a favor, source of GREAT annoyance, don't tell me what I am doing unless you've read my other posts...I am NOT interpreting ONE comment...I've been "interpreting" for about a year, ok?

And again, I didn't say the players WON'T PLAY FOR BILL...Geeez, it's right here in this thread...can you at least quote me correctly before taking issue with something I didn't say...

Here ya go..."Geez, I could deal with it if he hadn't said it to the media...that would bug me as a player..." That's what I wrote...Where did I say the players wouldnt play?

Juke99

11-08-2004, 01:12 PM

No, he didn't pick them. He picked some of them. And you can nitpick all you want, but most of the ones he picked have played pretty well. Gonna tell me that Anderson, Campbell, Glenn, Glover, Johnson, etc., haven't played well? Vinny had a bad game yesterday, but he's played pretty well--& a heck of a lot better than the high-priced FAs Brunell & Collins have played. Hey, even Warner looked pretty bad yesterday. The ones who get singled out are 2--Wiley & George. He inherited most of them (like the defense that's being so criticized right now). The "marginal" players who've come in (Ward, etc.) have come in because of injuries. Now, unless you want to start blaming injuries on Parcells too, that's reality. Show me a team in the league right now who isn't bringing in guys off the street because of injuries right now.

"nitpick"...yep, that's what it is...I am relieved you didn't call me "sexist" again...I guess every writer in Dallas is "nitpicking" too...I guess Drew Pearson was "nitpicking" with his comments...and I guess Parcells is "nitpicking" too with his comments...it's pretty obvious that even HE doesn't think the players are playing well...

Ya know, it's one thing to be supportive of someone...another to be this blind to the poor job that's been done...ya see, the problem is, it ruins your credibility (and there are a few others here too) when you won't say ONE critical word about Parcells...

I've given him credit when he's done well...ala the Henson signing...I dont simply sit and take pot shots at everything he does because it would RUIN my credibility...

wileedog

11-08-2004, 01:23 PM

Sorry if I extrapolated that the players would be "bugged" into thinking they wouldn't necessarily play for him. But if that's not the case, who gives a darn? Bill ain't there to be their best buddy.

Also, you're alluding to comments Bill has made all year as reinforcing this arrogant attitude of I'm always right but the players stink. What other comments? Do you mean the one's after Green Bay when he said "This is all my fault, I'm doing a terrible job this year."? Yeah, he sure hung them out to dry on that one.

Personally I think you are interpreting his comments to fit your theory, not the other way around. And, in all probability, so am I ;).

As for me being a GREAT annoyance, hey, sorry I'm challenging your little world of Bill the Pompous Overlord. Didn't realize it was a year-long crusade for you.I haven't been 'keeping score' on all of your posts for a year, so if I'm missing something, I apologize.

If you don't like what I have to say feel free to ignore it. I'm just trying to talk football here, no need to get personal.

AdamJT13

11-08-2004, 01:23 PM

Playing Drew doesn't = quitting.

I never said that. Quitting is when you give up on the season when there's still any chance at all. If Henson gives us our best chance to win, he should play.

Bach

11-08-2004, 01:29 PM

I never said that. Quitting is when you give up on the season when there's still any chance at all. If Henson gives us our best chance to win, he should play.

So what constitutes giving up on the season?

Many seem to feel that pulling VT for Henson would mean giving up on the season, ie quitting.

But with Vinny we are 3-5. We've been playing and starting all of BP's veterans and the season still ended at the halfway point.

Juke99

11-08-2004, 01:34 PM

Sorry if I extrapolated that the players would be "bugged" into thinking they wouldn't necessarily play for him. But if that's not the case, who gives a sh*t? Bill ain't there to be their best buddy.

Also, you're alluding to comments Bill has made all year as reinforcing this arrogant attitude of I'm always right but the players stink. What other comments? Do you mean the one's after Green Bay when he said "This is all my fault, I'm doing a terrible job this year."? Yeah, he sure hung them out to dry on that one.

Personally I think you are interpreting his comments to fit your theory, not the other way around. And, in all probability, so am I ;).

As for me being a GREAT annoyance, hey, sorry I'm challenging your little world of Bill the Pompous Overlord. Didn't realize it was a year-long crusade for you.I haven't been 'keeping score' on all of your posts for a year, so if I'm missing something, I apologize.

If you don't like what I have to say feel free to ignore it. I'm just trying to talk football here, no need to get personal.

Hey, wilee...go read what Pearson said before saying that I'm interpreting comments to fit my theory...I'm not the only one thinking that Bill has bee arrogant in his approach this year...

As far as personal, "Your little world..." please...sounds kinda personal...

I didn't say YOU are a great annoyance...I said when people do what you did, I find it a source of great annoyance...

Whatever...

BTW, you might want to edit that vulgar word you used because it's not within posting guidelines...

Chuck 54

11-08-2004, 03:45 PM

And honestly B. I don't see the benefit of just eeking into playoffs. I really don't. This team has massive problems that can only be fixed with better personnel. And better personnel starts with a good draft and a good draft starts with a good draft position. Plus we need to see if any of the young guys can play and I seriously doubt with the mistakes that young guys will make that we could go 6-2 the rest of the way. Hell, even with the vets we aren't going 6-2.
I agree with you....last year I wanted the playoffs because we were a young up and coming team, surprising people...we had young players at key positions who were going to benefit from the playoff experience...most of those young players are no longer with us...who gives a crap if we make the playoffs with Vinny, EG, and these other guys...unless we're on a roll and can make it a very positive experience, it's just a waste of time and draft position....I can't believe I said that :(

AdamJT13

11-08-2004, 04:20 PM

So what constitutes giving up on the season?

Making decisions "because the season is over" or "because we'll never make the playoffs now" would be giving up on the season. Many fans want to give up on the season, but I sure hope our coaches and players don't.

If Parcells starts Henson and/or Lee because he thinks they give us a better chance to beat the Eagles, that's fine. That's exactly what a coach should do. But if he says he's going to start Henson and/or Lee "because we're 3-5 and have no shot at making the playoffs," I'd consider that giving up on the season.

Doomsday101

11-08-2004, 04:23 PM

Making decisions "because the season is over" or "because we'll never make the playoffs now" would be giving up on the season. Many fans want to give up on the season, but I sure hope our coaches and players don't.

If Parcells starts Henson and/or Lee because he thinks they give us a better chance to beat the Eagles, that's fine. That's exactly what a coach should do. But if he says he's going to start Henson and/or Lee "because we're 3-5 and have no shot at making the playoffs," I'd consider that giving up on the season.

I agree with you. While this is a site where fans can express their opinions it is just that an opinion and the only one that really matters is Parcells not the fans. As long as Parcells is not giving up yet and at least some players have said the same I to will not give up on the Cowboys no matter how bleak things look

TruBlueCowboy

11-08-2004, 04:30 PM

The chances of making the playoffs, especially considering the way we lost yesterday, are minute. It's hard to believe the team that took the field yesterday could rebound to beat a Pop Warner club much less the Eagles.

But the reality is, well, this:

Philly (7-1), Minny (5-2), Atlanta (6-2), and Seattle (5-3) currently lead their divisions.

But beneath them is ONE winning team, the Jints, at 5-3.

A slew of others all at 4-4, or one game behind them at 3-5.

Dallas and the Skins, 3-5 , Detroit and Green Bay 4-4, and Chicago now 3-5.

New Orleans and Tampa Bay, 3-5, St Louis, 4-4, and Arizona 3-5.

Only Carolina and San Francisco at 1-7 are truely, if not mathematically, out of it.

I am no stats fiend, but I do know even if we grant one wild card berth to the Giants, one other team has to rise above that pack of 4-4, 3-5.

Can we do it? The way we played yesterday answers with a resounding NO.

But............................

That 1999 squad got into the Playoffs in a season like this. It was a pretty similar team too. A lot of older vets past their prime. We got our butts kicked and a prompt exit but at least we made it. I see your point, anything is possible in parity.

MichaelWinicki

11-08-2004, 04:32 PM

I agree with you....last year I wanted the playoffs because we were a young up and coming team, surprising people...we had young players at key positions who were going to benefit from the playoff experience...most of those young players are no longer with us...who gives a crap if we make the playoffs with Vinny, EG, and these other guys...unless we're on a roll and can make it a very positive experience, it's just a waste of time and draft position....I can't believe I said that :(

Well Wayne you said it because it's true. It is the reality of the situation. I have no problem with the optimistic fans that want nothing but good and believe nothing but good will happen. God bless those folks, the world is a better place for them.

Me? I've seen too much of the real world. Yeah, I'm optimistic but I won't let it cloud my judgment. The fact is "this dog won't hunt" as Jerreh would say. And I don't care if the went 6-2 the rest of the way or not. This is a very flawed team. I would gladly pitch this season into the dumpster to help stabilize the rest of the decade for this franchise. And while it's nice thinking to say "never retreat", the fact is there are times when you must. This is one of those times. And I don't think it makes me or you "bad" fans to think that. Hey at this point give me a 5-11 season, but just make sure we get a few of our questions answered going into the off season.

I've always felt much better about 2005 than I have 2004 anyway.

Juke99

11-08-2004, 04:38 PM

I've always felt much better about 2005 than I have 2004 anyway.

But I'll tell ya, it must suck royally to be a young guy playing for Parcells....ROYALLY.

Doomsday101

11-08-2004, 04:48 PM

But I'll tell ya, it must suck royally to be a young guy playing for Parcells....ROYALLY.

Newman has started as a rookie and Witten saw a lot of action as a rookie last year. Evidently Parcells felt they were ready to handle the job. I don't think Parcells has personal issues with young players but unlike fans he does see them more than 1 time a week, he is there day in and day out so I think he knows a lot more about these guys than some fan does.

Juke99

11-08-2004, 05:00 PM

Newman has started as a rookie and Witten saw a lot of action as a rookie last year. Evidently Parcells felt they were ready to handle the job. I don't think Parcells has personal issues with young players but unlike fans he does see them more than 1 time a week, he is there day in and day out so I think he knows a lot more about these guys than some fan does.

Newman started as a rookie because he was what, the 8th selection in the draft??? and we had NOTHING at CB....nada zilch nuttin..

Witten saw a lot of action...that's true...he's also one of the best TE's in football...is that what it takes to get a shot on this team?

Your position on this holds true IF the guys in front of these young guys were doing a good job...they aren't...George has zilch...and we all know, he's blown blitz pick ups...

Yesterday, it was Keyshawn and Vinny making huge mistakes...

Remember Anderson putting the ball on the ground vs the Vikings at the worst time?

Remember Anderson and Vinny colliding on third and 13, causing a fumble against Pittsbury and costing us the game?

Remember Keyshawn running two bad routes that turned into INT's? Yep, he also caught two TD's....exactly the kind of game a young guy would have...but supposedly the young guys can't be trusted...

These guys don't have enough UPSIDE to be making these kinds of mistakes so often...

Finally, is Drew Pearson "some fan"? Did you read his words about this roster and how we got here?

Everlastingxxx

11-08-2004, 05:05 PM

Newman started as a rookie because he was what, the 8th selection in the draft??? and we had NOTHING at CB....nada zilch nuttin..

Witten saw a lot of action...that's true...he's also one of the best TE's in football...is that what it takes to get a shot on this team?

Your position on this holds true IF the guys in front of these young guys were doing a good job...they aren't...George has zilch...and we all know, he's blown blitz pick ups...

Yesterday, it was Keyshawn and Vinny making huge mistakes...

Remember Anderson putting the ball on the ground vs the Vikings at the worst time?

Remember Anderson and Vinny colliding on third and 13, causing a fumble against Pittsbury and costing us the game?

Remember Keyshawn running to bad routes that turned into INT's? Yep, he also caught two TD's....exactly the kind of game a young guy would have...but supposedly the young guys can't be trusted...

These guys don't have enough UPSIDE to be making these kinds of mistakes so often...

Finally, is Drew Pearson "some fan"? Did you read his words about this roster and how we got here?

Your on the mark with your observations.

ravidubey

11-08-2004, 05:50 PM

Playing Drew doesn't = quitting.

Regardless of who is on the field, I would expect them to all try and win.

To me it's totally futile to keep startng guys like Vinny, Eddie, Richie etc. They aren't winning and they won't be part of the team in the near future either.

Playing Drew when you have a veteran option is quitting on this season. How could it be anything else? DH is going to blow games far worse than VT when he has no running game, physical defense, or deep WR corps to help him.

VT has played well, but everyone has their limits.