Georgian Official Reports Downing of 2 Russian Aircraft

[PosterChild]

Georgia's Interior Ministry spokesman says that Georgian forces have shot down two Russian combat planes as violence escalates in the breakaway province of South Ossetia.

Russia has sent 150 tanks and armored vehicles into the territory as what started as a regional conflict between Georgia and separatists threatens to build into all-out war.

A senior Georgian security official says Russian jets have bombed Vaziani military airbase outside the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, Reuters reports.

Georgian troops launched a major military offensive Friday to regain control over the South Ossetia and the president accused Russia, which has close ties to the separatists, of bombing Georgian territory.

A Russian official denied the bombing. But Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said the Georgian attack will draw retaliation and the Defense Ministry pledged to protect South Ossetians, most of whom have Russian citizenship.

A convoy of Russian tanks is moving toward South Ossetia's capital.

Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili says the convoy has crossed into South Ossetia from the neighboring Russian province of North Ossetia and is moving toward the regional capital of Tskhinvali.

Russia's Channel 1 television earlier showed a convoy of Russian tanks that it said had entered South Ossetia. The report said the convoy is expected to reach the provincial capital within a few hours.

There has been no immediate comment from Russian officials.

An Associated Press reporter saw tanks and other heavy weapons concentrating on the Russian side of the border with South Ossetia and villagers were fleeing into Russia.

"I saw them (the Georgians) shelling my village," said Maria, who gave only her first name. She looked shocked and was reluctant to speak. She said she and other villagers spent the night in a field and then fled toward the Russian border as the fighting escalated.

The fighting in South Ossetia has raised fears of an all-out war that could draw in Russia, which has peacekeepers in the region. Putin said an unspecified number of the peacekeepers have been wounded.

NATO has called for an immediate end to fighting. NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said he is seriously concerned about the fighting and that the alliance is closely following the situation.

Separatist officials in South Ossetia said 15 civilians had been killed in fighting overnight. Georgian officials said seven civilians were wounded in bombing raids by Russia.

South Ossetia officials said Georgia attacked with aircraft, armor and heavy artillery. Georgian troops fired missiles at the regional capital, Tskhinvali, an official said, and many buildings were on fire. The Russian news agency Interfax said a hospital was hit by Georgian shelling.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili said Russian aircraft bombed several Georgian villages and other civilian facilities.

"A full-scale aggression has been launched against Georgia," Saakashvili said in a televised statement.

He also announced a full military mobilization with reservists being called into action.

Seven civilians were wounded when three Russian Su-24 jet bombers flew into Georgia and bombed the town of Gori and the villages of Kareli and Variani, Deputy Interior Minister Eka Sguladze said at a briefing.

She said four Russian jets later bombed Gori, the hometown of Soviet dictator Josef Stalin, but that raid didn't cause any casualties.

Saakashvili urged Russia to immediately stop bombing Georgian territory. "Georgia will not yield its territory or renounce its freedom," he said.

A senior Russian diplomat in charge of the South Ossetian conflict, Yuri Popov, dismissed the Georgian claims of Russian bombings as "disinformation," the RIA-Novosti news agency reported.

Russia's Defense Ministry denounced the Georgian attack as a "dirty adventure." "Blood shed in South Ossetia will weigh on their conscience," the ministry said in a statement posted on its Web site.

"We will protect our peacekeepers and Russian citizens," it said without elaboration.

Saakashvili long has pledged to restore Tbilisi's rule over South Ossetia and another breakaway province, Abkhazia. Both regions have run their own affairs without international recognition since splitting from Georgia in the early 1990s and built up ties with Moscow.

Most residents of South Ossetia and Abkhazia have Russian passports. An open war could prompt Russian to send in more forces under the claim of protecting its citizens.

Putin, speaking in televised remarks Friday during his trip to the opening of the Beijing Olympics, said Georgia's military action causes "grave concern and it will certainly lead to retaliatory actions."

Saakashvili said government troops have seized the outskirts of Tskhinvali and are fighting for control of the center. Georgian forces also have seized several villages around the capital.

Gen. Mamuka Kurashvili, a Georgian military officer in charge of operations in the region, said on Rustavi 2 television that Georgian forces were moving to "establish constitutional order in the region."

The leader of Russia's province of North Ossetia rushed to Tskhinvali. "We are jointly organizing defenses here," Teimuraz Mamsurov said in the city, according to the Interfax news agency.

Mamsurov said hundreds of volunteers from North Ossetia were streaming across the border into South Ossetia, Interfax said. It also quoted the separatist leader of Abkhazia as saying that some 1,000 volunteers from his region were heading to South Ossetia.

Georgian State Minister for Reintegration Temur Yakobashvili said Georgian officials were doing everything they could to avoid casualties and the destruction of property.

But Boris Chochiyev, a minister in the South Ossetian government, said that Georgian troops shelled the center of Tskhinvali with truck-launched missiles. He asked the Russian government to defend South Ossetians.

Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Boris Malakhov called on Tbilisi to commit itself to peaceful resolution of the conflict.

Yakobashvili said Friday that Georgia was ready to negotiate, but claimed the South Ossetian officials were dragging their feet in starting talks.

At the request of Russia, the U.N. Security Council held an emergency session in New York but failed to reach consensus early Friday on a Russian-drafted statement.

The council concluded it was at a stalemate after the U.S., Britain and some other members backed the Georgians in rejecting a phrase in the three-sentence draft statement that would have required both sides "to renounce the use of force," council diplomats said.

"We think that this is a very serious error of judgment and political blunder," Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin said of the council members' disagreement. "I hope that the Georgian side will reconsider its reckless actions in the area of the Georgia-South Ossetia conflict."

The Georgian attack came just hours after Saakashvili announced a unilateral cease-fire in a television broadcast late Thursday in which he also urged South Ossetian separatist leaders to enter talks on resolving the conflict.

Georgian officials later blamed South Ossetian separatists for thwarting the cease-fire by shelling Georgian villages in the area.

The fighting was the worst outburst of hostilities in the region since it won a de-facto independence in a war that ended in 1992.

Russia has soldiers in South Ossetia as peacekeeping forces, but Georgia alleges they back the separatists. Russia also was criticized by the West as provoking tensions by sending warplanes over South Ossetia last month.

Most of South Ossetia, which is roughly 1.5 times the size of Luxembourg, has been under the control of an internationally unrecognized separatist government since 1992. Georgian forces hold several swaths of it.

Relations between Georgia and Russia worsened notably this year as Georgia pushed to join NATO and Russia dispatched additional peacekeeper forces to Abkhazia.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,399962,00.html

[PosterChild]

Up to 150 Russian tanks and armoured vehicles are reported to have been sent in following claims that Georgia shot down two Russian warplanes.

Georgia has reportedly appealed to international leaders to stop Russian intervention in what began as a conflict between the former Soviet state and South Ossetian separatists.

The Russian military said that the region's capital, Tskhinvali, had been "almost completely destroyed", while President Dmitry Medvedev vowed to punish the anyone who hurt the province's people.

It was reported earlier that Georgian artillery shells killed several Russian peacekeepers, while Georgia claimed that Russian jets had injured seven people in a bombing raid.

An UN call for an immediate ceasefire between all parties fell on deaf ears.

The two sides had earlier failed to reach an agreement on a Russia-drafted statement that would have called on Georgia and separatists region to halt all bloodshed.

Witnesses reported seeing intense fire from heavy weapons at different locations skirting Tskhinvali as well as hearing heavy fighting coming from the direction of the city.

The night sky was lit up blue and red by explosions and Georgian forces appeared to be firing Katyusha rockets.

A spokesman for the separatists said in Moscow that the offensive had caused "deaths and many wounded".

Skirmishes since the weekend have deepened fears of full-blown conflict in the Caucasus, which is emerging as a vital energy transit route and where Russia and the West are vying for influence.

Mikhail Saakashvili

South Ossetia and a second rebel Georgian region, Abkhazia - both of which unilaterally broke away from Georgia at the beginning of the 1990s - enjoy Russian political and financial backing.

Georgia, formerly a Soviet republic, has allied itself with the West and is pushing for membership of Nato.

"These actions will continue until we manage to reach a durable peace because people are still in danger," Mr Gurgenidze told a news briefing.

Mr Saakashvili had earlier offered the separatists an immediate ceasefire following fighting in which Georgia said up to 10 of its peacekeepers and civilians had been killed.

Fighting stopped on Thursday afternoon after Mr Saakashavili said he had instructed troops to stop returning fire and Moscow said the two feuding sides would hold talks.

But artillery fire broke out again with nightfall.

Russian envoy Yuri Popov said Georgia's military operation showed it could not be trusted and that Nato should reconsider its plans to grant membership to the ex-Soviet state.

The Georgian government said it had information about "hundreds of mercenaries, tanks and other equipment" entering South Ossetia through the Roki tunnel from Russia. A government official said Russian army units were also approaching.

Russia's Interfax news agency said hundreds of volunteers from Russia and Abkhazia were heading for South Ossetia to support the separatists.

The United Nations and European Union have appealed for calm.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Heavy-Fighting-In-South-Ossetia-As-Georgia-Launches-Offensive-Against-Break-Away-Province/Article/200808215073456?lpos=World%2BNews_1&lid=ARTICLE_15073456_Heavy%2BFighting%2BIn%2BSouth %2BOssetia%2BAs%2BGeorgia%2BLaunches%2BOffensive%2 BAgainst%2BBreak-Away%2BProvince

[burmafrd]

Russia flexing its muscles. Luckily they will not have the financial resources to keep it up for very long; like Mexico, Russia has milked its oil industry of money to do things like this= and has starved it of the investments in exploration and infrastructure that would have kept production up; its now falling and will for the next several years. If the price of Oil falls below $100 a barrel, they will feel the pinch.

[PosterChild]

It would seem likely they could be kept at bay by an entrenched army in the mountainous terrain. Sounds kinda familiar, actually...

[utrunner07]

Russia flexing its muscles. Luckily they will not have the financial resources to keep it up for very long; like Mexico, Russia has milked its oil industry of money to do things like this= and has starved it of the investments in exploration and infrastructure that would have kept production up; its now falling and will for the next several years. If the price of Oil falls below $100 a barrel, they will feel the pinch.

WHAT?!?! Russia miss manage its finances, infrastructure and spending????? No way man!;)

[Doomsday101]

Georgia today Florida tomorrow. Damn Russians. :laugh2:

[PosterChild]

Georgia today Florida tomorrow. Damn Russians. :laugh2:

My GGGrandpappy was right. I knew the South would rise again!

[PosterChild]

Russia, Population 145 mil
Georgia 4.5 Mil


Talk about a mismatch, but the Russian bully is risking quite a great deal embarking on this punitive action. Not tryin to sound the alarm but this is how World Wars get started.

[CATCH17]

Russia, Population 145 mil
Georgia 4.5 Mil


Talk about a mismatch, but the Russian bully is risking quite a great deal embarking on this punitive action. Not tryin to sound the alarm but this is how World Wars get started.

Are we about to fight russia and china?

[Doomsday101]

My GGGrandpappy was right. I knew the South would rise again!

I knew we could not trust them pink-o reds and now look they are in our back yard attacking them poor boys down in Georgia.:laugh2:

[CATCH17]

I knew we could not trust them pink-o reds and now look they are in our back yard attacking them poor boys down in Georgia.:laugh2:

lol.... I dont care what kind of weapons they have. Georgia has Quincy Carter!













Q: Is there a chance that the United States and the West could be drawn into a confrontation with Russia over this?

A: Georgia is not a member of NATO, so there are no obligations to come to its defense. Georgia so far has asked for diplomatic, not military, assistance from the West. The Pentagon says it has only 125 defense personnel and contractors in Georgia that provide military training for Georgian forces deployed in Iraq.

[Doomsday101]

lol.... I dont care what kind of weapons they have. Georgia has Quincy Carter!













Q: Is there a chance that the United States and the West could be drawn into a confrontation with Russia over this?

A: Georgia is not a member of NATO, so there are no obligations to come to its defense. Georgia so far has asked for diplomatic, not military, assistance from the West. The Pentagon says it has only 125 defense personnel and contractors in Georgia that provide military training for Georgian forces deployed in Iraq.

You are correct, Georgia is not part of NATO they are part of the SEC. :laugh2:

[yeahyeah]

Russia flexing its muscles. Luckily they will not have the financial resources to keep it up for very long; like Mexico, Russia has milked its oil industry of money to do things like this= and has starved it of the investments in exploration and infrastructure that would have kept production up; its now falling and will for the next several years. If the price of Oil falls below $100 a barrel, they will feel the pinch.

http://houston.bizjournals.com/houston/stories/2008/08/04/story2.html?b=1217822400%5E1677587

[CanadianCowboysFan]

If Georgia has oil, the western countries will be interested, if not, they won't care.

[ThaBigP]

If Georgia has oil, the western countries will be interested, if not, they won't care.

You serious? Then why aren't we rushing to Alaska and the outer continental shelf? There's tons of oil there.

[iceberg]

You serious? Then why aren't we rushing to Alaska and the outer continental shelf? There's tons of oil there.

i don't think we'd survive a sneak attack on ourselves.

[ThaBigP]

There's a lot of information, much of it partial, flying around in regards to this conflict. But it boils down to this:

1) Russia did not want Georgia to be embraced by NATO and disliked it's affinity for Europe and the United States.

2) In order to prevent Georgia's inclusion into NATO, Russia engaged in a poorly concealed effort to foment civil unrest in South Ossetia, a region populated by many folks who felt historical ties to Russia rather than Georgia (although they were indeed in the national borders of Georgia)

3) Russia, over the last 4 years or so, began printing Russian passports by the truckload and issuing Russian citizenship to residents of South Ossentia, who were in fact Georgian citizens.

4) Now, Russia can claim they are "defending" their "citizens" from Georgia's attempt to quell violence in the region.

Now, with those facts in hand, imagine if the Mexican government began handing out passports and citizenship to those of Mexican decent or Mexican sympathies living in the US. And, in response to our attempts to crack down on illegal immigration sent their army into the US Southwest in order to "protect" their "citizens". It's certainly something to keep your eye on over the next few days.

[iceberg]

mexico has an army?

[ThaBigP]

In fact, look up the Mexican-American war for another parallel, this time going the other way.

[ThaBigP]

mexico has an army?

Yes, just ask a US Border Agent. Unfortunately.

[ologan]

Well,if good ol' Roosia can supply Eye-ran with new SAM's,maybe we could quickly 'sell' Georgia a few A-10's. 150 tanks???? No problem!!!

[vta]

Well,if good ol' Roosia can supply Eye-ran with new SAM's,maybe we could quickly 'sell' Georgia a few A-10's. 150 tanks???? No problem!!!

Well that is what this is about: the U.S.'s support of the former Soviet territory and the influence we have with them. It's spurning Russia to do what it can to make Georgia an unreliable, unstable ally in the region.

Georgia won't ask for military assistance, as this will just add fuel to the fire and give the Russian's an excuse. Right now, holding the position of victim is the better option for Georgia.

[ThaBigP]

September 27, 1938
Franklin Roosevelt appeals to Hitler for peace

On this day in 1938, President Franklin Roosevelt writes to German Chancellor Adolf Hitler regarding the threat of war in Europe. The German chancellor had been threatening to invade the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia and, in the letter, his second to Hitler in as many days, Roosevelt reiterated the need to find a peaceful resolution to the issue.

The previous day, FDR had written to Hitler with an appeal to negotiate with Czechoslovakia regarding Germany’s desire for the natural and industrial resources of the Sudetenland rather than resort to force. Hitler responded that Germany was entitled to the area because of the "shameful" way in which the Treaty of Versailles, which had ended World War I, had made Germany a "pariah" in the community of nations. The treaty had given the Sudetenland, a territory that was believed by Hitler and many of his supporters to be inherently German, to the state of Czechoslovakia. Therefore, Hitler reasoned, German invasion of the Sudetenland was justified, as annexation by Germany would simply mean returning the area to its cultural and historical roots. Hitler assured Roosevelt that he also desired to avoid another large-scale war in Europe.
In his letter of September 27, Roosevelt expressed relief at Hitler’s assurances but re-emphasized his desire that "negotiations [between Germany and Czechoslovakia] be continued until a peaceful settlement is found." FDR also suggested that a conference of all nations concerned with the current conflict be convened as soon as possible. He appealed to Hitler’s ego, saying "should you agree to a solution in this peaceful manner I am convinced that hundreds of millions throughout the world would recognize your action as an outstanding historic service to all humanity." FDR then assured Hitler that the U.S. would remain neutral regarding European politics, but that America recognized a responsibility to be involved "as part of a world of neighbors."
In the end, Hitler ignored the international community’s pleas for a peaceful solution and invaded Czechoslovakia in March 1939. The invasion was just the first in Hitler’s quest to control Europe and create a "Third Reich" of German geopolitical supremacy.

[ThaBigP]

Sorry to interrupt everybody's facination with bread and circus in Bejing, or the "is you is or is you ain't my baby" John Edwards story.

[ThaBigP]

From Pravda, 8/9/2008:

Russia’s ambassador to NATO warns alliance to keep out of South Ossetia
08/09/2008 13:16 Source: AP ©


Dmitry Rogozin, Russia’s ambassador to NATO, stated Saturday that Russia was not at war with Georgia. The official said that there would be no cease-fire until Georgia withdrew its troops from South Ossetia.


Russia’s ambassador to NATO warns alliance to keep out of South Ossetia

Rogozin urged NATO not to interfere in the conflict and added that Russia entered S.Ossetia to protect its nationals.
"We do not consider ourselves in a state of war. We are just (keeping) the peace and helping our peacekeepers and the civilian population," he said.
Dmitry Rogozin added that Georgia’s President cannot even imagine what it would be like to be at war with Russia.
Rogozin, who said he briefed NATO military officials, said Russian troops had wrested control of Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian provincial capital.
"We do not conduct any military operation (against) Georgia outside the conflict zone" in South Ossetia, Rogozin told reporters at his residence in Brussels.
Georgia hopes to join the NATO alliance. Rogozin said Moscow expected the organization to keep a low profile and accused Saakashvili of trying to "internationalize" the conflict
"We take the view that NATO is not involved in the conflict," he told reporters.
He said a cease-fire - as proposed by Saakashvili - can only happen if Georgian forces stop shooting and return to positions they held before Friday's offensive.
Rogozin said if Georgia does not meet the conditions "no serious politician or military leader" could consider sending peacekeepers to South Ossetia.
Russia sent hundreds of tanks and troops into the province and bombed Georgian towns Saturday in a major escalation of the conflict.
The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, Europe's leading security organization, said it plans to meet with Georgian and Russian leaders.
"It looks very strongly like the war is escalating both in the region of South Ossetia and now also in Abkhazia," Finnish Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb, who chairs the group, told reporters in Helsinki on Saturday.
South Ossetia won de facto independence after a civil war in 1992 and Russia has granted citizenship to most of its residents.

[ThaBigP]

This also from Pravda - Russia now turning it's sights on the Ukraine:

Israeli mass media published several articles August 10 dedicated to the war in South Ossetia. Newspapers paid special attention to arms shipments to Georgia, which Israel had made in the past. A former defense ministry official said that the Georgian army had no chances in the opposition to the Russian army.
http://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/idb/ossetia200.jpgGeorgian troops burn South Ossetian refugees alivehttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/ar/blue.gifBREAKING NEWShttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifGeorgia declares war on South Ossetia (http://english.pravda.ru/topic/georgia_ossetia-603/)http://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifExplosions continue to terrorize Russia's Black Sea coast (http://english.pravda.ru/topic/sochi-602/)http://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifProns and cons of vegetarianism (http://english.pravda.ru/topic/vegetarian-600/)http://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/idb/linkz/tanks.jpg (http://english.pravda.ru/photo/report/ossetia-3723)Georgia treacherously attacks South Ossetia (http://english.pravda.ru/photo/report/ossetia-3723)More... (http://english.pravda.ru/photo/report/ossetia-3723)http://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gif
Russia’s Foreign Ministry accused Ukraine of encouraging Georgia to interventions and ethnic cleansings in South Ossetia. Russia also claimed that Ukraine had armed Georgia to the teeth. Georgia’s ground forces possess weapons, ammunition, unmanned aircraft, night vision goggles and other equipment made in Israel.
Israel’s Defense Ministry recommended to cease arms shipments to Georgia after the start of military actions in South Ossetia, not to provoke Russia.
Battles in South Ossetia continued throughout the night. Russian sources said that about 2,000 people had been killed in South Ossetia.
Ukrainian Foreign Ministry stated that the country reserved the right to forbid vessels of the Russian Black Sea Navy to return to their base in Ukraine’s Sevastopol.
Ukrainian official said that Ukraine was not willing to become involved in the conflict.
In the meantime, the armed forces of another unrecognized republic, Abkhazia, moved closer to its borderline with Georgia, Interfax reports with reference to Abkhazia’s defense ministry.
“Georgia does not stop its treacherous actions on Abkhazia’s border and continues to intensify its military presence. The armed forces of the republic were forced to enter the security zone and advance towards the Georgian border,” an official spokesman for the defense ministry of Abkhazia said.
It was reported that Georgia delivered a note to the Consul of the Russian Federation to Georgia which said that Georgia intended to end military actions in South Ossetia on August 10.
The note also said that Georgia was ready to immediately start cease-fire negotiations with the Russian Federation, Interfax reports.
However, fierce battles in South Ossetia continued on August 10 despite the official note. In addition, Georgia’s Defense Minister, Timur Yakobashvili, stated Sunday that the retreat of the Georgian troops from South Ossetia was out of the question.
“We decided to redeploy our troops to be able to resist the Russian armed forces, which outnumber our troops,” Yakobasvili said.
Russia’s General Staff of Armed Forces said that Russia had lost only two fighter jets in the conflict zone, but not 12 jets, as Georgian officials previously claimed.

[ThaBigP]

More from Pravda - this time self-written rather than lifted from the AP. Notice the change in language - and the insinuation of "Zionist" influence in the region (aka Israel). I've read a lot of that stuff on Russian news outlets the last few days.

The international community collectively held their breath waiting for the reaction of Russia after the savage, brutal, criminal attack by Georgia on South Ossetia. After having offered a cease fire in hostilities, the back stabbing Georgians immediately violated the cease fire, invading South Ossetia and causing massive destruction and death among innocent civilians, among peacekeepers and also destroying a hospital.
At approximately 11:30 p.m. Moscow time Georgians opened fire with heavy artillery from the side of the Georgian villages of Ergneti and Nikozi against the city of Tskhinval, the Defense Ministry of South Ossetia announced on Thursday. Georgian troops attempted to storm the city much as Hitler‘s Panzer divisions blazed through Europe. Also noteworthy is the fact that Georgian tanks and infantry were being aided by Israeli advisors, a true indicator that this conflict was instigated by outside forces.
Meanwhile, the western corporate media was maintaining a blackout of “the grand silence” on the aggression of Georgia. When they did finally report on it, they were as usual telling the story backwards with headlines such as “Russian Jets Attack Georgia” and “They Have Declared War Against Us” as though Georgia had not done anything wrong.
A large part of the capital of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, has been destroyed along with five villages. South Ossetia reports that more than 1,600 people have been killed in the past 24 hours. There are also many casualties among peacekeepers and hospitals are said to be overflowing with victims.
Relating what has become common practice among war criminals, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov reported: "A Russian humanitarian convoy has come under fire. Panic is growing among the local population, and the number of refugees is increasing. There are reports of ethnic cleansing in some villages... The situation is ripe for a humanitarian catastrophe."

[ThaBigP]

After hearing accusastions of "zionism" flying about in Russian press (controlled by Moscow, by the way, after several prominent "purges" in which reporters were systematically "suicided", poisoned or shot by "burglers"), I did a little digging. There is a connection..... starting to all come together for me.

http://www.bh.org.il/Communities/Archive/Tbilisi.asp

[PosterChild]

This also from Pravda - Russia now turning it's sights on the Ukraine:

Israeli mass media published several articles August 10 dedicated to the war in South Ossetia. Newspapers paid special attention to arms shipments to Georgia, which Israel had made in the past. A former defense ministry official said that the Georgian army had no chances in the opposition to the Russian army.
http://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/idb/ossetia200.jpgGeorgian troops burn South Ossetian refugees alivehttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/ar/blue.gifBREAKING NEWShttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifGeorgia declares war on South Ossetia (http://english.pravda.ru/topic/georgia_ossetia-603/)http://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifExplosions continue to terrorize Russia's Black Sea coast (http://english.pravda.ru/topic/sochi-602/)http://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifProns and cons of vegetarianism (http://english.pravda.ru/topic/vegetarian-600/)http://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/idb/linkz/tanks.jpg (http://english.pravda.ru/photo/report/ossetia-3723)Georgia treacherously attacks South Ossetia (http://english.pravda.ru/photo/report/ossetia-3723)More... (http://english.pravda.ru/photo/report/ossetia-3723)http://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gif
Russia’s Foreign Ministry accused Ukraine of encouraging Georgia to interventions and ethnic cleansings in South Ossetia. Russia also claimed that Ukraine had armed Georgia to the teeth. Georgia’s ground forces possess weapons, ammunition, unmanned aircraft, night vision goggles and other equipment made in Israel.
Israel’s Defense Ministry recommended to cease arms shipments to Georgia after the start of military actions in South Ossetia, not to provoke Russia.
Battles in South Ossetia continued throughout the night. Russian sources said that about 2,000 people had been killed in South Ossetia.
Ukrainian Foreign Ministry stated that the country reserved the right to forbid vessels of the Russian Black Sea Navy to return to their base in Ukraine’s Sevastopol.
Ukrainian official said that Ukraine was not willing to become involved in the conflict.
In the meantime, the armed forces of another unrecognized republic, Abkhazia, moved closer to its borderline with Georgia, Interfax reports with reference to Abkhazia’s defense ministry.
“Georgia does not stop its treacherous actions on Abkhazia’s border and continues to intensify its military presence. The armed forces of the republic were forced to enter the security zone and advance towards the Georgian border,” an official spokesman for the defense ministry of Abkhazia said.
It was reported that Georgia delivered a note to the Consul of the Russian Federation to Georgia which said that Georgia intended to end military actions in South Ossetia on August 10.
The note also said that Georgia was ready to immediately start cease-fire negotiations with the Russian Federation, Interfax reports.
However, fierce battles in South Ossetia continued on August 10 despite the official note. In addition, Georgia’s Defense Minister, Timur Yakobashvili, stated Sunday that the retreat of the Georgian troops from South Ossetia was out of the question.
“We decided to redeploy our troops to be able to resist the Russian armed forces, which outnumber our troops,” Yakobasvili said.
Russia’s General Staff of Armed Forces said that Russia had lost only two fighter jets in the conflict zone, but not 12 jets, as Georgian officials previously claimed.

Charges of ethnic cleansing as a pretext for aggressive war acts...hmm. Where have i heard this before?

[ThaBigP]

This from 1903. YES, 1903. Russians secretly engaged in the suppression of Jewish Nationalism. The ties run deep:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9501E5DE1439E433A25751C0A96F9C946297D6CF&oref=slogin

[ThaBigP]

Charges of ethnic cleansing as a pretext for aggressive war acts...hmm. Where have i heard this before?

Although I've been drawing parallels to 1938, I'd not considered nor was aware of the anti-semetic foundation of much of this until I did some serious research last night and into today. It's getting chilly over in the Caucuses. And with Russia rattling sabres at Israel and Ukraine now, ...

This could get WAY outta hand in a very big way, very soon folks. Seriously, f**k the damn games, figure this out and now.

added, and f**k John Edwards too. And his baby-momma story. I just don't give a damn.

[yeahyeah]

There's a lot of information, much of it partial, flying around in regards to this conflict. But it boils down to this:

1) Russia did not want Georgia to be embraced by NATO and disliked it's affinity for Europe and the United States.

2) In order to prevent Georgia's inclusion into NATO, Russia engaged in a poorly concealed effort to foment civil unrest in South Ossetia, a region populated by many folks who felt historical ties to Russia rather than Georgia (although they were indeed in the national borders of Georgia)

3) Russia, over the last 4 years or so, began printing Russian passports by the truckload and issuing Russian citizenship to residents of South Ossentia, who were in fact Georgian citizens.

4) Now, Russia can claim they are "defending" their "citizens" from Georgia's attempt to quell violence in the region.

Now, with those facts in hand, imagine if the Mexican government began handing out passports and citizenship to those of Mexican decent or Mexican sympathies living in the US. And, in response to our attempts to crack down on illegal immigration sent their army into the US Southwest in order to "protect" their "citizens". It's certainly something to keep your eye on over the next few days.


Thank you..thats puts things in perspective. Makes better sense now, good stuff.

[ThaBigP]

Thank you..thats puts things in perspective. Makes better sense now, good stuff.

An excellent parallel is the Mexican-America war, which I posted a few posts later. Yes, it was MY country that did that one, but much of the same issues were at stake.

[ThaBigP]

And as of now, we still don't know who lit the fuse on the cannon that fired this "shot heard round the world". Russia claims overt heavy-handed, wholesale destruction of Tskhinvali, the separatist strong-hold in South Ossentia, at the hands of Georgian forces. Claims of up to 2000 civillian casualties have been reported. However, these claims are mired with much Cold-War era, or 1930s Germany-era puffed up rhetoric, such as Georgians locking children up in houses and setting fire to them, that just challenge credulity.

We do know Georgia announced a cease-fire with the saparatists prior to the Russian incursion. We know that within hours shelling resumed. We also know that in that shelling, Russia claims around 10 of their peacekeepers were killed by Georgian forces. This begs the question....

If indeed Georgian forces were responding to a South Ossetian violation of the cease-fire, why were Russian forces in a position to be hit by return fire?

If Georgia violated its own cease-fire, however, this madness just makes less sense. They knew Russia had been building up forces along their border and shaking their sword. This likely inspired the S Ossetians to further escalate tensions there by shelling Georgian positions - a logical presumption that echos Georgia's claims.

[yeahyeah]

This from 1903. YES, 1903. Russians secretly engaged in the suppression of Jewish Nationalism. The ties run deep:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9501E5DE1439E433A25751C0A96F9C946297D6CF&oref=slogin

You would be hard pressed to find a country with a more consistent history of anti-semitism than Russia.

[ThaBigP]

...and the plot thickens....

Iran Says It's Ready to 'Confront' New Sanctions


Sunday, August 10, 2008 6:30 AM

Article Font Size http://www.newsmax.com/images/layout/minus.jpg (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:setActiveStyleSheet('default');) http://www.newsmax.com/images/layout/plus.jpg (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:setActiveStyleSheet('largeFont');)

TEHRAN, Iran -- Iran's official news agency is quoting a government spokesman as saying the country is "ready to confront sanctions" over its disputed nuclear program.

The EU on Friday tightened trade restrictions on Iran, and the West has threatened a fourth round of U.N. sanctions over Tehran's refusal to halt uranium enrichment.

That's a process that can either produce fuel for a nuclear reactor or a weapon.

Sunday's report quotes government spokesman Gholam Hossein Elham as saying Iran's nuclear policies will not change, and the country will manage "under any circumstances."

The West accuses Iran of trying to develop nuclear weapons, but Tehran insists its nuclear program aims to generate electricity only.

Consider a couple of points in light of this - I've seen a shiznit ton of anti-zionist propaganda circulating in state-run Russian news outlets (accusing alternately NATO, the US, the Ukraine, and especially Israel for starting all of this). Russia is a de-facto ally of Iran in its quest for nuclear arms. AND, to add fuel (no pun inteded) to the fire, the war in Georgia puts in jeopardy the sole pipeline of petroleum outside of Kremlin control that Europe, and particulary Isreal, rely upon. Isreael could effectively be cut off from energy supplies if Russia succeeds in wresting control of the entirety of Georgia. Oh, and reports are that Russia is amassing a huge invasion force on the norther borders of Georgia that are nowhere near the contested South Ossentia region. That, and Russian warships have now blockaded Georgia in the West along its Black Sea coast - just heard Russian warships have begun sinking Georgian ships there. They've also landed Russian forces there. Again, none of this is in the originally disputed region. And Georgia is pleading that it met Moscow's demand for a pull-out of the South Ossetian region (please bear in mind that this demand was a demand they pull out of territory IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY). Russia claims they know nothing of a pull-out nor Georgia's call for an immediate cease-fire and international mediation. They have intinsified operations around Georgia, now focusing on infrastructure. South Ossentia seems all but forgotten now.

[ThaBigP]

The Second Republic (1938–1939)Main article: German occupation of Czechoslovakia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Czechoslovakia)
Although Czechoslovakia was the only central European country to remain a parliamentary democracy from 1918 to 1938, it faced problems with ethnic minorities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_minority), the most important of which concerned the country's large German population. The ethnic Germans constituted more than 22% of the interwar state's population and were largely concentrated in the Bohemian and Moravian border regions, called the Sudetenland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenland) in German. Some members of this minority, which were predominantly sympathetic to Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany), undermined the new Czechoslovak state.
Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler)'s rise in Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany), the German annexation (Anschluss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss)) of Austria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria), the resulting revival of revisionism in Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary) and of agitation for autonomy in Slovakia, and the appeasement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement) policy of the Western powers (France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France) and the United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)) left Czechoslovakia without allies, exposed to hostile Germany and Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary) on three sides and to unsympathetic Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland) on the north.
After the Austrian Anschluss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss), Czechoslovakia was to become Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler)'s next target. The German nationalist minority, led by Konrad Henlein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Henlein) and vehemently backed by Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler), demanded the union of the predominantly German districts with Germany. Threatening war, Hitler extorted through the Munich Agreement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement) in September 1938 the cession of the Bohemian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia), Moravian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravia) and Czech-Silesian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia) borderlands - Sudetenland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenland) where all Czech population were forcible expelled. On September 29, the Munich Agreement was signed by Germany, Italy, France, and Britain. The Czechoslovak government agreed to abide by the agreement. The Munich Agreement stipulated that Czechoslovakia must cede Sudetenland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenland) territory to Germany. Beneš resigned as president of the Czechoslovak Republic on October 5, 1938, fled to London and was succeeded by Emil Hácha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_H%C3%A1cha). In early November 1938, under the Vienna Award (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Award), which was a result of the Munich agreement, Czechoslovakia (and later Slovakia) was forced by Germany and Italy to cede southern Slovakia (one third of Slovak territory) to Hungary. After an 30 September ultimatum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimatum) (but without consulting with any other countries), Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland) obtained the disputed Zaolzie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaolzie) region as a territorial cession shortly after the Munich Agreement, on 2 October.
The Czechs in the greatly weakened Czechoslovak Republic were forced to grant major concessions to the non-Czechs. The executive committee of the Slovak People's Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_People%27s_Party) met at Žilina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BDilina) on October 5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_5), 1938 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938), and with the acquiescence of all Slovak parties except the Social Democrats formed an autonomous Slovak government under Jozef Tiso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jozef_Tiso). Similarly, the two major factions in Subcarpathian Ruthenia, the Russophiles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Russophiles) and Ukrainophiles, agreed on the establishment of an autonomous government, which was constituted on October 8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_8), 1938 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938). In late November 1938, the truncated state, renamed Czecho-Slovakia [the so-called Second Republic], was reconstituted in three autonomous units: Czechia (i.e. Bohemia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia) and Moravia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravia)), Slovakia, and Ruthenia.
On March 14 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_14), 1939 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939), Slovakia gained nominal independence as a satellite state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_state) under Jozef Tiso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jozef_Tiso). Hitler forced Hácha to surrender what remained of Bohemia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia) and Moravia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravia) to German control on 15 March (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_15) 1939 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939), establishing the German protectorate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectorate) "Bohemia and Moravia", which was created on March 16th. On the same day (March 15), the Carpatho-Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpatho-Ukraine) (Subcarpathian Ruthenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenia)) declared its independence and was immediately invaded and annexed by Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary). Finally, on March 23 Hungary invaded and occupied from the Carpatho-Ukraine some further parts of Slovakia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakia) (eastern Slovakia).

[ThaBigP]

I also read an article by Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov. His assertion is that Russia seeks to break much of the world's alliance with the US (the idea of getting away from a uni-polar world political order, as he called it). While his language was clinical (almost cold) and did not say that such a change would be made by force if needed, that was the subtext I read into that. So far Russias reasons for the incursion are in flux - one day it's heavy-handed aggression by Georgians against their own provence of South Ossetia. The next, US, NATO, and Israeli "meddling" in Russian affairs, with an almost dismissive attitute toward S Ossentia, which just the day before was the "sole" reason for this. This begs the question: who does a sovereign nation need to get permission from in order to choose its friends and alliances? Further, Russia is claiming it's the "meddling" that led to a "massive" arms buildup of Georgia's army. Well, when you start unarmed, being handed a gun is a "massive arms buildup". But even their modernized forces will not be able to hold out long against even this limited assault. And by the way, the Russians slyly warned Georgia that "they don't even know what it's like to be at war with Russia". As in, "you ain't seen nuthin' yet?"

[ologan]

Aren't two more carrier battle groups heading for 'The Gulf' region? May be going for a dual purpose? Iran,or.....?

(Also another strong recommendation for drilling HERE,and drilling NOW!)

[burmafrd]

Russia has always been zenophobic and very anti semitic. Bad combination.
Sadly, the brief time of change and democracy has been crushed.

And where is MSNBC, CBS, CNN while all this has been happening?

[Brandon]

This is basically the exact same thing as invading Iraq.

If say Trinidad & Tobago killed American citizens on US soil, do you think we would sit around and just say "ah whatever" all of you criticizing Russia, would have a COMPLETe different tune if this was the US. Nevertheless, Russia should back off Georgia any time the now. If the US gets involved with this the world is over, there is no way we can fight a war in Iraq, Afganistan, Russia and China(Who will be pulled in) Nukes will go flying and the world will end, easy as that.

[zrinkill]

If the US gets involved with this the world is over, there is no way we can fight a war in Iraq, Afganistan, Russia and China(Who will be pulled in) Nukes will go flying and the world will end, easy as that.

:lmao:

Good God ...... when does school start again?

[SuspectCorner]

Clout? Sorry my man, not any more…
By: Jo Fish Sunday August 10, 2008 4:00 pm

The Georgian Big Kahuna is asking the US to use its "clout" to help end yet another dirty little war between their country and Pootie-Poot's troops from the Country Once Known As Evil. For some strange and unknown reason Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili is asking for our help in ending the dust-up between his country and Rrrroooshya. Good luck with that, Mikhail.

Our State Department under the current incompetent administration: not so bad at making excuses, not so great at making with the diplomacy. However, put up a runway andprovide some whips and chains (no, seriously) and Condi will be there boots, leather skirt and all... FemDom Diplomacy is all the rage inside the beltway this decade. No guarantees of results but you'll get excellent press coverage of Condi's fashion sense and maybe even a piano concert out of the deal. Oh, and she does speak Russian... and she might even be able to find Georgia on a globe (as long as you tell her that it's the one without Atlanta).


"President Saakashvili says he believes the United States could play an important role in quelling an escalating military conflict between his nation and its giant neighbor, Russia."


And you know, I'd agree with the good man if it were any other administration but this one... even St Ronnie of Dementia might have had competent diplomats to dispatch with an equal number of CIA operatives to at least provide the appearance of giving a **** while setting up complex espionage operations; Bush 1 would have dragged out the rolodex and made some calls to see if there were something to be done that was a win-win for us, and at least given it the old Yale try while really doing nothing at all. The Big Dog, well, he'd a gone over and had a giant kuumbaya session, felt everyone's pain and left Madelaine Albright to hold a second and third level yakfest while being disparaged by Tom Delay, Trent Lott, Chris Matthews and the Heritage Foundation for not invading (or invading) someplace on general principle... complete with non-binding resolutions and speeches, speeches speeches.

No, the Georgians drew Beloved Glorious Leader, the Jar-Jar Binks of American Presidents instead, during their struggle with the Land of Pootie.


"The United States and the world community should stop [the] intervention and invasion of my sovereign country," said Mikhail Saakashvili. "I think the U.S. is the most powerful country in the world."


Yo, Mikhail it's a really, really bad time to bring up the whole "sovereign country" thing. Right now our beloved Codpiece Commandante is hanging out with other first-second-and-third-world totalitarian leaders acting like a bored ten-year old at a Stephen Hawking lecture. On top of that, we have the whole "well, we invaded a sovereign country too" thing and so the moral high ground that that fool has to stand on there is actually a fire-ant mound in flood waters and the really p***ed-off warrior ants are starting to climb up his leg, he's just too stupid to notice.

So, we're sorry for your troubles over there and we hope that your war goes well, or at least as well as any war can go. Once upon a time there were legions of men and women in this country who served in the Foreign Service and who dedicated their lives to solving problems like those your country faces. Today, however they'd likely send over a kid whose resume was up on the Heritage Foundation website last week and who would arrive to tell you there's nothing to worry about, Preznit War Lover looked in Pootie's eyes and measured his soul and found him to be a good man. So everything will be okey-bedokey.

We have our own issues with illegally invading sovereign nations you see, and for a bit we'll be busy trying to figure out how we can get ourselves out of that little problem. But best of luck with your war thingy, I hear that the Swedes and the Swiss are pretty good negotiators, and have not invaded anyone in centuries.


http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/10/clout-sorry-my-man-not-any-more/

[burmafrd]

Why am I not surprised that this piece of garbage is here from a poster named suspect?

[Vintage]

This is basically the exact same thing as invading Iraq.

If say Trinidad & Tobago killed American citizens on US soil, do you think we would sit around and just say "ah whatever" all of you criticizing Russia, would have a COMPLETe different tune if this was the US. Nevertheless, Russia should back off Georgia any time the now. If the US gets involved with this the world is over, there is no way we can fight a war in Iraq, Afganistan, Russia and China(Who will be pulled in) Nukes will go flying and the world will end, easy as that.

Explain to me why China would risk military confrontation with the United States over.... Georgia.

[arglebargle]

Oil Pipeline.

As I understand it, Georgia has the only non-Russian, non-Iranian oil pipeline feeding Europe. It makes a lot more sense now....

Not sure who started what, but the Russians are going to use the Kossova Excuse. They are not so worried about niceties. This is an abject message to the other former soviet states to walk carefully, and consider very carefully when they go against the new Bear's wishes.

They have the power of the West's oil addiction to bring to bear as well.

If Georgia started this, what were they thinking??? IF the Russians started it, we can pretty well guess what they were thinking.

[ThaBigP]

This is basically the exact same thing as invading Iraq.

If say Trinidad & Tobago killed American citizens on US soil, do you think we would sit around and just say "ah whatever" all of you criticizing Russia, would have a COMPLETe different tune if this was the US. Nevertheless, Russia should back off Georgia any time the now. If the US gets involved with this the world is over, there is no way we can fight a war in Iraq, Afganistan, Russia and China(Who will be pulled in) Nukes will go flying and the world will end, easy as that.

South Ossetia is NOT in Russia. It is in Georgia. Russia was printing passports and handing out blanket citizenship to members of ANOTHER country in order to build a pretext for this. None of this, however, excuses any excess in force the Georgian's may have used in S Ossetia. But so far the claims of those excesses are coming from the Russian, state-controlled media side with no way (and little time) to confirm any of those claims. I will say this - it's a PR disaster for Russia. Cameras were not rolling on the Georgian campaign, but were turned on in time to see the Russian response.

[iceberg]

This is basically the exact same thing as invading Iraq.

If say Trinidad & Tobago killed American citizens on US soil, do you think we would sit around and just say "ah whatever" all of you criticizing Russia, would have a COMPLETe different tune if this was the US. Nevertheless, Russia should back off Georgia any time the now. If the US gets involved with this the world is over, there is no way we can fight a war in Iraq, Afganistan, Russia and China(Who will be pulled in) Nukes will go flying and the world will end, easy as that.

we're invading iraq to overthrow a peckerhead and help give them their own government back. we're not saying or keeping iraq, are we?

not the same.

[Vintage]

we're invading iraq to overthrow a peckerhead and help give them their own government back. we're not saying or keeping iraq, are we?

not the same.


Is Russia really wanting to keep "South Ossetia" though?

I think this is more about their desire to see the former Soviet bloc tied more to Russia than the U.S., which many of the Soviet bloc have been leaning towards (many want in NATO; Russia views that as a threat).

Admittedly, I can't recall off the top of my head if the South Ossetians are wanting independence from Georgia (and their own state) or...... independence from Georgia and be a part of the Soviet state.



But yes - his analogy was flawed.

[PosterChild]

http://www.answers.com/topic/ossetians?method=26&initiator=FFANS


http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/3/38/200px-Ossetian_girl_1883.jpg

She looks very "Native American" in my view.

[zrinkill]

This is basically the exact same thing as invading Iraq.

If say Trinidad & Tobago killed American citizens on US soil, do you think we would sit around and just say "ah whatever" all of you criticizing Russia, would have a COMPLETe different tune if this was the US. Nevertheless, Russia should back off Georgia any time the now. If the US gets involved with this the world is over, there is no way we can fight a war in Iraq, Afganistan, Russia and China(Who will be pulled in) Nukes will go flying and the world will end, easy as that.

In Case some of you are wondering ....

This poster was formally known as Dreadnought.

He thinks we framed Bin Laden

We blew up the 9/11 towers

90% of the U.S. are racists

Really this is some of the tamest crap he has spewed.

[PosterChild]

In Case some of you are wondering ....

This poster was formally known as Dreadnought.

He thinks we framed Bin Laden

We blew up the 9/11 towers

90% of the U.S. are racists

Really this is some of the tamest crap he has spewed.

That explains a lot. I think I have both his SNs ignored. Now if ppl will stop quoting him...

[Vintage]

In Case some of you are wondering ....

This poster was formally known as Dreadnought.

He thinks we framed Bin Laden

We blew up the 9/11 towers

90% of the U.S. are racists

Really this is some of the tamest crap he has spewed.

Clearly, you haven't seen the videos that scientifically prove we blew up the towers.

Its science.

We did. Like "omgwheredidtheplanego?CONSPIRACY!11!1!!1!!!"

I believe it.

In perhaps unrelated news, I also believe Jessica Alba is my soul mate. She just doesn't know it yet...

[Viper]

"It's the first time in the history of the world that fire has melted steel."
Rosie O'Donnell

[iceberg]

Is Russia really wanting to keep "South Ossetia" though?

I think this is more about their desire to see the former Soviet bloc tied more to Russia than the U.S., which many of the Soviet bloc have been leaning towards (many want in NATO; Russia views that as a threat).

Admittedly, I can't recall off the top of my head if the South Ossetians are wanting independence from Georgia (and their own state) or...... independence from Georgia and be a part of the Soviet state.

But yes - his analogy was flawed.

dunno. this is where i defer to thabigp - he spent all weekend reading about it and soaking up any news he could.

you could be right. their big issue is they just don't like them aligning with our way of doing things.

[bbgun]

This is basically the exact same thing as invading Iraq.

If say Trinidad & Tobago killed American citizens on US soil, do you think we would sit around and just say "ah whatever" all of you criticizing Russia, would have a COMPLETe different tune if this was the US. Nevertheless, Russia should back off Georgia any time the now. If the US gets involved with this the world is over, there is no way we can fight a war in Iraq, Afganistan, Russia and China(Who will be pulled in) Nukes will go flying and the world will end, easy as that.

Speaking of which, where are all the anti-war groups?? After all, the Russians have no meaningful justification under international law, and far less than the imperfect case the US and its allies put forth to justify regime change in Iraq. Or do you reserve your outrage for American and Israeli actions exclusively?

[PosterChild]

WARSAW (AFP)--The presidents of five ex-communist countries will travel to Georgia to back Georgia in its war with Russia, a senior aide to Poland's President Lech Kaczynski told AFP Monday.

Kaczynski and his counterparts from Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Ukraine could fly to Tbilisi later Monday or Tuesday, Mariusz Handzlik said. Handzlik said details of the trip were still being settled.

-Dow Jones Newswires, 201-938-5500

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspxcontent/NewsStory.aspx?cpath=20080811\ACQDJON200808111434D OWJONESDJONLINE000422.htm&&mypage=newsheadlines&title=Poland:%20Presidents%20Of%205%20Ex-Communist%20Countries%20Head%20To%20Georgia

[Bach]

(AP) In an effort to look Presidential, Democratic candidate Barack Obama is scheduled to fly to Atlanta to look into this matter.

[PosterChild]

(AP) In an effort to look Presidential, Democratic candidate Barack Obama is scheduled to fly to Atlanta to look into this matter.

:lmao2:

[iceberg]

WARSAW (AFP)--The presidents of five ex-communist countries will travel to Georgia to back Georgia in its war with Russia, a senior aide to Poland's President Lech Kaczynski told AFP Monday.

Kaczynski and his counterparts from Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Ukraine could fly to Tbilisi later Monday or Tuesday, Mariusz Handzlik said. Handzlik said details of the trip were still being settled.

-Dow Jones Newswires, 201-938-5500

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspxcontent/NewsStory.aspx?cpath=20080811\ACQDJON200808111434D OWJONESDJONLINE000422.htm&&mypage=newsheadlines&title=Poland:%20Presidents%20Of%205%20Ex-Communist%20Countries%20Head%20To%20Georgia

as thabigp and i were talking, this was my initial reaction for their only hope. all the outter/former regions must stand up and group together. alone they'll fall.

[Bizwah]

as thabigp and i were talking, this was my initial reaction for their only hope. all the outter/former regions must stand up and group together. alone they'll fall.

Wow....I hadn't heard that.

This certainly is interesting.

[iceberg]

Wow....I hadn't heard that.

This certainly is interesting.

well i'm pretty stupid about that region over all. i know thabigp enough to know he puts a lot of time and effort into what he knows and esp if he's got a strong interest. he's definately got a strong interest here so i just let him explain it to me.

gonna get interesting.

[utrunner07]

we're invading iraq to overthrow a peckerhead and help give them their own government back. we're not saying or keeping iraq, are we?

not the same.
:laugh2:great post...its amazing how some people just do not have the ability to "get it".

[utrunner07]

What a huge mess...US is in between a rock and a hard place on this one...

[Bizwah]

At the end of WWII, when we were in Germany with the Russians, Patton wanted the US to use the opportunity to go ahead and take on Russia.

His point was that some day we'd be fighting them anyway....we may as well get it over with.

In the late forties through the late eighties it appeared he may have been correct.

Then the Berlin Wall fell, the Soviet Union crumbled.....a new era of peace reigned...without us firing a shot (something Russia always claimed they would do to us).

Sometimes, especially lately, it appears that we're on a collision course with Russia. Hopefully, this will work itself out.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Exactly.

If US turns a blind eye, some will accuse them of only caring in Iraq due to oil. If they get involved, then they piss off Russia who will never keep quiet the next middle eastern war either Israel or the US gets involved in, even if the war is justified under international law.

It seems to me, the best thing would be to do nothing as really it is an internal affair. The separatists want to return to Mother Russia if I remember correctly. They never should have been part of Georgia.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Speaking of which, where are all the anti-war groups?? After all, the Russians have no meaningful justification under international law, and far less than the imperfect case the US and its allies put forth to justify regime change in Iraq. Or do you reserve your outrage for American and Israeli actions exclusively?

The US really had no legal justification for regime change in Iraq.

Russia is wrong but protesting isn't going to do anything, not like the Russian PM cares about North American public opinion.

[iceberg]

Exactly.

If US turns a blind eye, some will accuse them of only caring in Iraq due to oil. If they get involved, then they piss off Russia who will never keep quiet the next middle eastern war either Israel or the US gets involved in, even if the war is justified under international law.

It seems to me, the best thing would be to do nothing as really it is an internal affair. The separatists want to return to Mother Russia if I remember correctly. They never should have been part of Georgia.

as far as i know though georgia was not stopping them from moving back. yes they're stonger ties to russia than georgia, but till russia started blowing it all up i never heard there was a problem?

anyone else know what was going on before russia hit the fan?

if we go by past history russia now has 12 years to come clean or we invade.

[Bizwah]

The US really had no legal justification for regime change in Iraq.
Russia is wrong but protesting isn't going to do anything, not like the Russian PM cares about North American public opinion.

I totally disagree here.

This was a guy that repeatedly spit in the face of the UN.

We had just been attacked....we had warned the world we would defend ourselves.

Yet Sadaam, in his arrogance, continually failed to let UN inspectors do their jobs. He would not allow an inspection to occur, then after a lot of arguing and bluster (two or three weeks worth) he would let the UN inspectors in.

Did he have weapons? Maybe not....but that's not the point. He had ample opportunities to let the UN inspectors do their jobs. He was warned repeatedly. He knew we were a wounded animal. He knew the consequences if he failed to comply. Well, actually, even though we warned him force would be used, he apparently didn't think it would happen.

I agree with you about protesting doing nothing as far as Russia is concerned. They are unafraid of us. I think they sense that world opinion of us is at a low point. Our influence is low....The Russians won't stop with just getting back the disputed region. They may not stop after gaining all of Georgia.

This is a very serious situation.

[Ben_n_austin]

What a huge mess...US is in between a rock and a hard place on this one...

Agreed. But as I was saying the other day, when we set the example for what pretenses we use to go to war...and we're the precedent. Countries can use whatever protocol they want--as a Russian UN official stated--to go to war for whatever reason citing the U.S. did it, so can we. They lied, they were immoral and unethical. We can be, too.

All they need is an imagination and a military, like Russia.

Neat-o, huh?

[CanadianCowboysFan]

I totally disagree here.

This was a guy that repeatedly spit in the face of the UN.

We had just been attacked....we had warned the world we would defend ourselves.

Yet Sadaam, in his arrogance, continually failed to let UN inspectors do their jobs. He would not allow an inspection to occur, then after a lot of arguing and bluster (two or three weeks worth) he would let the UN inspectors in.

Did he have weapons? Maybe not....but that's not the point. He had ample opportunities to let the UN inspectors do their jobs. He was warned repeatedly. He knew we were a wounded animal. He knew the consequences if he failed to comply. Well, actually, even though we warned him force would be used, he apparently didn't think it would happen.

I agree with you about protesting doing nothing as far as Russia is concerned. They are unafraid of us. I think they sense that world opinion of us is at a low point. Our influence is low....The Russians won't stop with just getting back the disputed region. They may not stop after gaining all of Georgia.

This is a very serious situation.

I think the issue re Iraq is that as it was UN inspectors who weren't allowed, it was supposed to be the UN that enforced them, not the US on its own behalf.

Everyone knew that Hussein had nothing to do with the terrorist attack in 2001 so attacking Iraq was not justified as there was no imminent threat of attack on the US by Iraq.

Anyway, no need to rehash that whole argument again.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Agreed. But as I was saying the other day, when we set the example for what pretenses we use to go to war...and we're the precedent. Countries can use whatever protocol they want--as a Russian UN official stated--to go to war for whatever reason citing the U.S. did it, so can we. They lied, they were immoral and unethical. We can be, too.

All they need is an imagination and a military, like Russia.

Neat-o, huh?

mmm, that is a good point. Russia just needs to say there was an imminent threat to its citizens to justify an attack. Israel does it, US did it in Iraq. Hard to get mad at Russia for it.

[Ben_n_austin]

mmm, that is a good point. Russia just needs to say there was an imminent threat to its citizens to justify an attack. Israel does it, US did it in Iraq. Hard to get mad at Russia for it.

Which is why you don't lie or make up frivolous reasons for going to war, as the country that is supposed to set the ethical standards for action.

Will we, or most of us, reflect from this angle? probably not... America seems to have forgotten most of the principles that supposedly make us a great country, lately.

[zrinkill]

America seems to have forgotten most of the principles that supposedly make us a great country, lately.

:lmao2:


Wow

[Ben_n_austin]

:lmao2:


Wow

I'm stunned, once again, by your inability to provide any sort of substantive remark...

The biggest idiot troll on the board, who claims to own trolls, is trolling with the ever so effective smilies.

What a retard you really are, Zrin--an utter retard indeed.

[Vintage]

Which is why you don't lie or make up frivolous reasons for going to war, as the country that is supposed to set the ethical standards for action.

Will we, or most of us, reflect from this angle? probably not... America seems to have forgotten most of the principles that supposedly make us a great country, lately.

I agree.

Start with taxes and gov't.

Now.

Versus Then.

Easy.

Where does Obama fit on this scale?

[Ben_n_austin]

1.assumed as true, regardless of fact; hypothetical: a supposed case. 2.accepted or believed as true, without positive knowledge: the supposed site of an ancient temple. 3.merely thought to be such; imagined: supposed gains.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/supposedly

[zrinkill]

I'm stunned, once again, by your inability to provide any sort of substantive remark...

The biggest idiot troll on the board, who claims to own trolls, is trolling with the ever so effective smilies.

What a retard you really are, Zrin--an utter retard indeed.


I see someone has gotten a tad upset

:laugh2:

How is anyone supposed to respond when a coward bad mouths the country they fought for?

But do not worry ...... its ok to do that in this "supposedly" great country

Even for a pathetic person such as yourself.

[Ben_n_austin]

I see someone has gotten a tad upset

:laugh2:

How is anyone supposed to respond when a coward bad mouths the country they fought for?

But do not worry ...... its ok to do that in this "supposedly" great country

Even for a pathetic person such as yourself.

Your attempts to take my comments out of context make you either flat out stupid, a partisan hack and/or a troll.

I say A,B and C--all of the above.

What is cowardly about saying we're now abandoning our fundamental principles? Cowardly is supporting, doing and nodding your head at everything that come down the line from your gov. without questioning it.

But you've shown how uneducated you are, so I really shouldn't expect any more from you.

[zrinkill]

But you've shown how uneducated you are, so I really shouldn't expect any more from you.

Right ...... I forgot you are a college professor who constantly act like a child and starts calling people names when he loses an argument.

Try again ...... no one is buying that either.

Nobody is making you out to be anything but what you are.

Sorry if you do not like your own words.

;)

[Ben_n_austin]

Additionally, I make apologies to TheBigP as well. While we have had some controversial and interesting debates, I always admire someone that brings substance to the table.

In light of my comments about the individual in the thread with no substance, I apologize for ruining the vibe of the thread.

Sincerely,
Ben

[zrinkill]

Russia bombs Tbilisi targets

http://www.blackanthem.com/News/Allies_20/Russia-bombs-Tbilisi-targets18198.shtml

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Bush must not have that big a problem with the invasion, he was seen hugging Putin at the Opening Ceremonies after the invasion had started.

[Ben_n_austin]

Bush must not have that big a problem with the invasion, he was seen hugging Putin at the Opening Ceremonies after the invasion had started.

:muttley:

[zrinkill]

Bush must not have that big a problem with the invasion, he was seen hugging Putin at the Opening Ceremonies after the invasion had started.

So the Canadian and French presidents must support the Iraq war eh?

[ThaBigP]

as thabigp and i were talking, this was my initial reaction for their only hope. all the outter/former regions must stand up and group together. alone they'll fall.

http://www.mytravelguide.com/g/maps/Eastern-Europe-map.gif

If you look at the map, that big, long grey line extending from Estonia (just south of St. Petersburg in western Russia).....ALL THE WAY to the far edge of the map in the east, actually way off the map (Kazakhstan) to the east, would be the front Russia would have to face if all of the former Soviet Bloc nations stood up together and gave a big middle finger to the bear. That's a battle front of biblical proportions - never before seen in the pages of history, perhaps only excepting the Monguls in ancient China.

[ThaBigP]

WHICH! by the way, is why Russia is so paranoid and doing what it's doing right now. So, like I said before, damage was done during the 90s by expanding Nato eastward, but more to the point treating post-Soviet Russia as if it were still an international parriah. I've often said, if you treat somebody like a monster long enough, don't be shocked when they turn into one eventually. We did it to Germany after WWII. The sad fact is, it's too late to fix that problem now. They have their nationalist leader vying for respect on the world stage.

[ThaBigP]

And I have no way of knowing if we'd taken a different course in the post-Soviet era if this still would not be happening. All we know is that we *do* have this problem now.

[utrunner07]

Georgia is a key port country for regional oil and has several KEY pipelines going into it....

What is Russia's major source of income? Oil...what has been happening to the price of oil the past month? Drop...what happens when their is fighting, bombing near oil pipleines and supply rights? Price goes up...what happens when price goes up? Putin gets more money....

Just a thought...

[ThaBigP]

True - it's a major reason Russia has been capable of rebuilding its conventional forces enough to dare such a bold move in the first place.

[Ben_n_austin]

Georgia is a key port country for regional oil and has several KEY pipelines going into it....

What is Russia's major source of income? Oil...what has been happening to the price of oil the past month? Drop...what happens when their is fighting, bombing near oil pipleines and supply rights? Price goes up...what happens when price goes up? Putin gets more money....

Just a thought...

Sounds awfully familiar.

Just a thought....

[ThaBigP]

Let me also clarify, I was a big supporter of Reagan's vision to the end of the Cold War, even though I was only 8 when he was elected. He hated the Soviet Government, but loved the Russian people. The feeling was mutual - he actually enjoyed major support among Russian citizens. He promised a world of a post-Soviet Russia embraced by the West as an equal member of the world of nations. They threw out their old ways, and reached out to the West. They got a slap in return, and a continuation of Cold-War containment policy by post-Reagan administrations and Europe (probably at the request of post-Reagan US administrations). And I'll quote the new Batman movie....."...and in their despiration, they turned to a man they did not completely understand...."

[zrinkill]

Let me also clarify, I was a big supporter of Reagan's vision to the end of the Cold War, even though I was only 8 when he was elected. He hated the Soviet Government, but loved the Russian people. The feeling was mutual - he actually enjoyed major support among Russian citizens. He promised a world of a post-Soviet Russia embraced by the West as an equal member of the world of nations. They threw out their old ways, and reached out to the West. They got a slap in return, and a continuation of Cold-War containment policy by post-Reagan administrations and Europe (probably at the request of post-Reagan US administrations). And I'll quote the new Batman movie....."...and in their despiration, they turned to a man they did not completely understand...."

.
.
Reagan is the man who made me decide to serve my Country.

.
.

[ThaBigP]

.
.
Reagan is the man who made me decide to serve my Country.

.
.

And it saddens me to see all of his hard work (and let's not forget the hard work of those behind the Iron Curtain, the Pope, Thatcher, etc) potentially undone by a misguided post-Soviet foreign policy in Europe. For him, it seemed, it was about the people and their freedom. Not sticking it in the eye of Russians after they'd done the right thing he'd always asked for.

This has happened before, to Germany after WWI, as I'm sure folks are tired of me bringing up.

[ThaBigP]

Here's more strangeness from the Russian point-of-view (or at least its state-controlled media, which at least is a good guage of the government's stance):

The USA acknowledged that Russia had virtually defeated the US, but not the Georgian army in South Ossetia. US instructors have spent four years training the Georgian army for an attack against Russian citizens. The US administration refused to help Saakashvili, because the true goal of the new game in the Caucasus is absolutely different.
http://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifStratfor acknowledges Russia defeated US, not Georgian army in South Ossetiahttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/ar/blue.gifBREAKING NEWShttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifGeorgia declares war on South Ossetia (http://english.pravda.ru/topic/georgia_ossetia-603/)http://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifExplosions continue to terrorize Russia's Black Sea coast (http://english.pravda.ru/topic/sochi-602/)http://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifProns and cons of vegetarianism (http://english.pravda.ru/topic/vegetarian-600/)http://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gif (http://english.pravda.ru/photo/report/fruit-3727)Ten most exotic fruit on Earth (http://english.pravda.ru/photo/report/fruit-3727)More... (http://english.pravda.ru/photo/report/fruit-3727)http://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifhttp://english.pravda.ru/img/0.gifExperts of Stratfor, the so-called Shadow CIA, stated that the Russian army had not only preserved its battling capacity but also proved to the whole world that was it capable of defeating an armed enemy, trained by US instructors.
A report from Stratfor particularly mentions that the operation in South Ossetia has exercised three things. First off, Russia has proved to have the army capable of conducting successful operations, in which many Western observers doubted before. Secondly, the Russians have showed that they can defeat the forces trained by US advisors. Finally, Russia has shown that the USA and NATO do not find themselves in the situation when they can interfere into a conflict from the military point of view.
At the same time, the experts consider it to be a military demonstration of Russia to former republics of the Soviet Union, including Ukraine, the entire Caucasus and Central Asia. In addition, they see a hidden warning to Poland and the Czech Republic against the background of a possible deployment of elements of the US missile defense system in those countries. However, the experts exclude an opportunity for Moscow to organize an intervention against some of the above-mentioned countries.
Stratfor’s statement means that the fight is over for Georgia and that the US administration is not going to cross the red line in its relations with Russia. Saakashvili’s hopes for NATO to become involved in a conflict with Russia went up in smoke.
The USA is pursuing absolutely different goals, and the creation of the Great Georgia is surely not on its list. The Republicans organized the provocation to portray Russia as a monster on the globe on the threshold of the November elections. This plays into the hands of John McCain, who openly says that “Russia’s imperial ambition” needs to be curbed.
This way or other, the USA has used the small country of Georgia as a toy.
Sergei Balmasov
Pravda.ru

[ThaBigP]

Russia feeling the PR heat now...I'll link to the Pravda article rather than posting the text...they're asking why world opinion is tilting hard against them and making comparisons to various other conflicts (Iraq, etc) and feeling they're getting little traction.


http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/11-08-2008/106058-georgiaossetiapublicopinion-0

[trickblue]

Pravda.ru

"Pravda" is Russian for "National Enquirer"...

[burmafrd]

WOndered how long it would be before Canadian and company started trying to find a way to blame this on Bush. Did not take long.

Where are all the peace protestors? Where are all those libs who keep screaming about Iraq. As quiet as they were about Rwanda and Darfur.

Now I wonder why is that?

And what is the EU doing- the supposed successor to the US and supposed great moral authority?

Where are the limosine liberals in Hollywood?

Where is Sean Penn?

Where is Susan Sarandon, Barbara Streisand and the rest of the hollywood morons?

[ThaBigP]

"Pravda" is Russian for "National Enquirer"...

Not exactly - it's basically (after Putin's Purges of dissenting media) a propaganda arm of the Russian government. As such, it's a valuable lens through which to see their government's position. The interesting thing about this article, from my point of view, is that it exists. It is an attempt to justify the Russian incursion to the Russian people. Of course by portraying themselves as martyrs in this conflict, at least martyrs of public opinion. But it means to me that the Russian government feels the need to start a justification campaign amongst their own people.

[ThaBigP]

WOndered how long it would be before Canadian and company started trying to find a way to blame this on Bush. Did not take long.

Where are all the peace protestors? Where are all those libs who keep screaming about Iraq. As quiet as they were about Rwanda and Darfur.

Now I wonder why is that?

And what is the EU doing- the supposed successor to the US and supposed great moral authority?

Where are the limosine liberals in Hollywood?

Where is Sean Penn?

Where is Susan Sarandon, Barbara Streisand and the rest of the hollywood morons?

I'll tell you where they are....in Poland. Estonia. Latvia. Lithuania. Ukraine. And in the capital of Georgia. They're demanding peace - and action if Russia will not give peace. Much different from our lefty protesters who demand peace at any price, including liberty. It's also interesting to note that the largest demonstrations (thousands in each of the nations I've mentioned) are in former soviet-bloc nations. Seems that those who know the enemy the most, know they have the most to lose by inaction.

[burmafrd]

No surprise there. Our particular home grown Libs are dumber and more ignorant then most other countries Libs.

[ThaBigP]

And like I said before, Russia is actually in a somewhat precarious position here. If all of the former soviet-bloc nations stand up together and defy Putin (and it looks like it might go that way), Russia will be faced with an almost 3000 mile front on their western and southern borders. While they tie Russia's hands militarily, we and the EU can initiate massive shipments of supplies and arms. Good arms, not worn out F4s. Maybe our decomissioned F14s, some F18s. Naval support and resupply. They already have trouble with the Ukraine with them announcing they may refuse to allow the Black Fleet (currently engaged with Georgia) to return or anchor there again. The biggest danger right now is if we are timid, Russia can pick these nations off one at a time, precisely what they want. They cannot stand up to an onslaught from all of them at once, with Western support.

[ThaBigP]

By the way, on a side note and kinda sentimental to me (I saw that movie, as cheezy as it may have been, as a child)...

When news came of the Russian invasion of Georgia, Georgian television switched to a live broadcast of the movie Red Dawn.

[ThaBigP]

http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/reviews/reddawn.jpg

WOOLVERINES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ben_n_austin]

Let me also clarify, I was a big supporter of Reagan's vision to the end of the Cold War, even though I was only 8 when he was elected. He hated the Soviet Government, but loved the Russian people. The feeling was mutual - he actually enjoyed major support among Russian citizens. He promised a world of a post-Soviet Russia embraced by the West as an equal member of the world of nations. They threw out their old ways, and reached out to the West. They got a slap in return, and a continuation of Cold-War containment policy by post-Reagan administrations and Europe (probably at the request of post-Reagan US administrations). And I'll quote the new Batman movie....."...and in their despiration, they turned to a man they did not completely understand...."


Somehow, this kinda reminded me of J.S. Mill's autobiography. LOL

[Ben_n_austin]

http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/reviews/reddawn.jpg

WOOLVERINES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


One of the best movies ever. . . .

[burmafrd]

Actually in a lot of ways ignoring russia in the 90s was pretty common. I mean Yeltsin was pretty hard to take seriously.

[burmafrd]

Red Dawn. Totally unrealistic in so many ways (Paratroops making it all the way to Colorado? Being surrounded by communists and not being on alert?
etc. YET I thought it was fairly realistic as regards guerilla war against a conventional army of occupation. And I liked it mainly because when it came out it made the Hollywood Liberals scream and cry. That is always a selling point for me.

[ThaBigP]

Well, they explained that with the downed US fighter pilot character - he expained that the Soviet Union and Cubans dropped troops in using civillian aircraft masquerading as civilian flights. Still thin, but an attempt at expaining it.

[ThaBigP]

.
.
Reagan is the man who made me decide to serve my Country.

.
.

Then you'll like this... and so will anybody else who wants to know what's really at stake here....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur9RU

[ThaBigP]

A protest in Madrid:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/08/11/article-1043684-023E398000000578-381_468x327.jpg

[ThaBigP]

Of course, to be fair, I'm sure the same guy was burning a picture of Bush when the Iraq war started. :rolleyes:

[SuspectCorner]

Pravda Online Perfects Art of Messianic Headline Composition
From: TruthDig.com ~ Posted on Aug 11, 2008

Right, so Vladimir Putin’s criticism about the Western media’s coverage of the ongoing clash between Russia and Georgia is certainly not completely unfounded, but media bias isn’t confined to the West. Consider this recent story from Russian news source Pravda.ru, headlined “Russia: Again Savior of Peace and Life.”

Pravda.ru:

The international community collectively held their breath waiting for the reaction of Russia after the savage, brutal, criminal attack by Georgia on South Ossetia. After having offered a cease fire in hostilities, the back stabbing Georgians immediately violated the cease fire, invading South Ossetia and causing massive destruction and death among innocent civilians, among peacekeepers and also destroying a hospital.

At approximately 11:30 p.m. Moscow time Georgians opened fire with heavy artillery from the side of the Georgian villages of Ergneti and Nikozi against the city of Tskhinval, the Defense Ministry of South Ossetia announced on Thursday. Georgian troops attempted to storm the city much as Hitler’s Panzer divisions blazed through Europe. Also noteworthy is the fact that Georgian tanks and infantry were being aided by Israeli advisors, a true indicator that this conflict was instigated by outside forces.

Meanwhile, the western corporate media was maintaining a blackout of “the grand silence” on the aggression of Georgia. When they did finally report on it, they were as usual telling the story backwards with headlines such as “Russian Jets Attack Georgia” and “They Have Declared War Against Us” as though Georgia had not done anything wrong.

(link to following article from Pravda)

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/20080811_pravda_online_perfects_art_of_messianic_h eadline_composition/

Russia: Again Savior of Peace and Life
From Pravda ~ 09.08.2008

The international community collectively held their breath waiting for the reaction of Russia after the savage, brutal, criminal attack by Georgia on South Ossetia. After having offered a cease fire in hostilities, the back stabbing Georgians immediately violated the cease fire, invading South Ossetia and causing massive destruction and death among innocent civilians, among peacekeepers and also destroying a hospital.

At approximately 11:30 p.m. Moscow time Georgians opened fire with heavy artillery from the side of the Georgian villages of Ergneti and Nikozi against the city of Tskhinval, the Defense Ministry of South Ossetia announced on Thursday. Georgian troops attempted to storm the city much as Hitler‘s Panzer divisions blazed through Europe. Also noteworthy is the fact that Georgian tanks and infantry were being aided by Israeli advisors, a true indicator that this conflict was instigated by outside forces.

Meanwhile, the western corporate media was maintaining a blackout of “the grand silence” on the aggression of Georgia. When they did finally report on it, they were as usual telling the story backwards with headlines such as “Russian Jets Attack Georgia” and “They Have Declared War Against Us” as though Georgia had not done anything wrong.

A large part of the capital of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, has been destroyed along with five villages. South Ossetia reports that more than 1,600 people have been killed in the past 24 hours. There are also many casualties among peacekeepers and hospitals are said to be overflowing with victims.

Relating what has become common practice among war criminals, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov reported: "A Russian humanitarian convoy has come under fire. Panic is growing among the local population, and the number of refugees is increasing. There are reports of ethnic cleansing in some villages... The situation is ripe for a humanitarian catastrophe."

Zarskaya road, which encircles the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, was cleared of Georgian troops as Russian tanks entered the area. So at long last, the soldiers of civilization and peace, the Russian Army, has moved in to push back the invaders. An elite Spetznaz unit has arrived in the South Ossetian capital. They will support Russian peacekeepers who are reported to be coming under artillery fire from Georgian troops. During a meeting with the Minister of Defense, Anatoly Serdyukov, Dmitry Medvedev said Russian peacekeepers will attempt to "force the Georgian side to stop fighting."


NATO, the US and the EU all called for an immediate end to hostilities. The EU will be convening an emergency session to work on plans for a cease fire. Georgia's president told CNN: "Russia is fighting a war with us in our own territory." In a display of cowboy bravado, Georgia also announced that their contingent in Iraq would be withdrawn, ostensibly to be available for further incursions and murderous rampages such as the one of Friday morning. Saakashvili, looking like a pompous clown, called on reservists to sign up for duty, saying: "This is a clear intrusion on another country's territory. We have Russian tanks on our territory, jets on our territory in broad daylight.” This of course is leaving out the part where he first sent his jets to strafe and bomb civilian areas and the Russian response comes as an attempt to prevent further attacks.

Russia and the international community have called on Georgia to pull its troops out of the region. Russian president Dmitry Medvedev says Moscow will take appropriate political and military measures to stop the violence in South Ossetia and he resolutely assures that those responsible will pay for their crimes.

Tshinvali is reported to be short of medicine and water, while most of the city's communication networks have been destroyed. Russian peacekeepers are assisting remaining residents. President Medvedev has ordered humanitarian assistance for the beleaguered region. A mobile hospital will leave Moscow for North Ossetia, a Russian republic bordering South Ossetia, at 22:00 (18:00 GMT). An Il-76 aircraft will deliver medical equipment as well as doctors, psychologists and rescuers totaling 60 personnel.

President Medvedev said, “The Russian military presence in South Ossetia complies with international law and is aimed at enforcing peace. As it has been throughout history, Russia continues to guarantee peace and security in the Caucasus. The action by Georgia contravenes Russia’s mandate for peacekeeping and amounts to blatant aggression. Russian peacekeeping forces and unarmed women, children and elderly have been the victims.”

Russia will continue to take adequate military and political measures for the immediate cessation of violence and to protect civilians including women, children and the elderly, most of whom are citizens of the Russian Federation as it implements a peacekeeping mission in accordance with existing international agreements.

The Georgian Parliament has approved a presidential decree declaring a state of war for 15 days. Meanwhile, on his way back from the Olympics, Vladimir Putin stopped by the North Ossetian capital on his way back from the Olympics to survey the situation and speak about the refugee situation. “ Georgia’s actions are criminal, whereas Russia’s actions are absolutely legitimate,” the Russian Prime Minister said.

Georgia’s desperate gamble has exploded in their faces. The conflict ``absolutely dooms Georgia's chances for North Atlantic Treaty Organization membership,” said Robert Hunter, US ambassador to the Brussels-based alliance under President Bill Clinton and now a senior adviser at the policy- research group RAND Corp. in Washington. ``You don't bring in a country that has this sort of trouble.''

The only possible and reasonable way out of this situation is the complete withdrawal of Georgian troops to their initial positions and the immediate signing of a legally binding agreement on the non-use of force. Only after this measure has been taken will it be possible to talk about further measures to de-escalate tensions. And so protecting LIFE is the honorable duty of the Russian military. Much as it was during the Great Patriotic War, when the Red Army hoisted the hammer and sickle flag on the Reichstag building, signifying the defeat of fascism.

Lisa KARPOVA

PRAVDA.Ru

http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/09-08-2008/106049-russiasaviour-0

[SuspectCorner]

Up to 2,000 Killed as Russia-Georgia Fighting Enters Fourth Day
Interview from "Democracy Now" ~ 08/11/2008

After four days of heavy fighting, Russian tanks are now approaching central Georgian cities away from the separatist regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Russian officials say Georgia provoked the assault by attacking South Ossetia late last week, causing heavy civilian casualties. NATO’s Secretary General and President Bush have both condemned Russia’s “disproportionate” use of force in Georgia.

[I]Guest:

Col. Sam Gardiner, retired Air Force Colonel. He has taught strategy and military operations at the National War College, Air War College and Naval War College. His recent posts on Georgia have appeared on the blog NewsDissector.org and here.

AMY GOODMAN: We turn to the escalating conflict between Russia and Georgia. Amidst reports of over 2,000 dead and 40,000 displaced, NATO’s Secretary General and President Bush have both condemned Russia’s “disproportionate” use of force in Georgia.


After four days of heavy fighting, Russian tanks are now approaching central Georgian cities away from the separatist regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Russian officials say Georgia provoked the assault by attacking South Ossetia late last week, causing heavy civilian casualties. Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili told journalists he signed a ceasefire proposal Monday, but news reports indicate the fighting continues.


Georgia is a close US ally, and despite Russian objections, the US has backed Georgia’s bid to enter NATO. On Friday, at the Security Council, the United States and Britain appeared to back the Georgian invasion. Georgia also plays a pivotal role in the supply of oil from the Caspian region to the West, as the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline runs through much of the country.


Retired Air Force Colonel Sam Gardiner has been closely following the conflict. His reports are available on Danny Schechter’s “News Dissector” blog. Colonel Sam Gardiner joins us now on the phone. Welcome to Democracy Now!


Colonel Gardiner, are you with us? Colonel Gardiner is speaking to us from his home in the Washington, D.C. area. We’re just checking that phone line. Are you there? We’ll go to a music break, and then we’ll come back to what’s happening in Georgia. Stay with us.





[B]AMY GOODMAN: We turn back now to the escalating conflict between Russia and Georgia. Amidst reports of over 2,000 dead, 40,000 displaced, NATO’s Secretary General, President Bush, both condemning Russia’s "disproportionate” use of force in Georgia.


After four days of heavy fighting, Russian tanks are now approaching central Georgian cities away from the separatist regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Russian officials say Georgia provoked the assault by attacking South Ossetia late last week, causing heavy civilian casualties. The Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili told journalists he signed a ceasefire proposal Monday, but news reports indicate the fighting continues.


Georgia is a close US ally. Despite Russian objections, the US has backed Georgia’s bid to enter NATO. On Friday, at the Security Council, the United States and Britain appeared to back the Georgian invasion. Georgia also plays a pivotal role in the supply of oil from the Caspian region to the West, as the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline runs through much of the country.


We’re now joined on the telephone by retired Air Force Colonel Sam Gardiner, who’s been closely following the conflict.


Welcome to Democracy Now!


COL. SAM GARDINER: Good morning.


AMY GOODMAN: Talk about this area that probably most people in this country have never heard of before.


COL. SAM GARDINER: Yes. It’s very interesting that it is probably what some analysts have called an area of frozen conflicts. After the Soviet Union dissolved, there remained areas in which, despite the fact that new states were created, there were tensions. One of those is the Ossetia or South Ossetia, which is where we’ve seen the fighting, and the other one, inside Georgia, is Abkhazia. There were agreements signed in the early 1990s that sort of solidified these as semi-independent territories. In one, there is a UN peacekeeping force, and then in South Ossetia, there is essentially independence, and, you know, they sort of ran their operations separate from the Georgian government.


And then, tensions began to increase over the past few months, because the president of Georgia has promised to retake—his words—retake the—particularly South Ossetia. That was a problem, because, by now, 90 percent of Ossetians there were holders of Russian passports. They had voted to become part of the Russian Federation. There was clear movement in the direction of this enclave, closer and closer ties with Russia. And then, last week, almost without announcement, the Georgians launched a strike into Ossetia with the apparent objective of putting this back under the Tbilisi control, back under the control of the Georgian government.


The Russians responded, responded probably in a way that was a great deal surprise to the Georgians, probably was also a surprise to the United States. And as of this morning, the Georgians seem to have pulled out of South Ossetia and the Russians have control of the capital city and are beginning to put in humanitarian aid.


The one issue left up in the air has to do with the other enclave, Abkhazia. There was a small portion of that enclave that was controlled by the Georgians. It was called the Kodori Gorge. Operations were launched there yesterday, some on Saturday night, in attempt to dislodge the Georgians and turn that territory over and completely make it independent from Georgian control. So, this morning, the fighting seems to be waning, although there are reports of still air strikes going on. It appears as if we have gotten through the heavy part of the fighting, but certainly not the important strategic consequences.


AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about significance of this, in terms of nuclear warfare in Russia? Do we have anything to fear along those lines?


COL. SAM GARDINER: Absolutely. Let me just say that if you were to rate how serious the strategic situations have been in the past few years, this would be above Iraq, this would be above Afghanistan, and this would be above Iran.


On little notice to Americans, the Russians learned at the end of the first Gulf War that they couldn’t—they didn’t think they could deal with the United States, given the value and the quality of American precision conventional weapons. The Russians put into their doctrine a statement, and have broadcast it very loudly, that if the United States were to use precision conventional weapons against Russian troops, the Russians would be forced to respond with tactical nuclear weapons. They continue to state this. They practice this in their exercise. They’ve even had exercises that very closely paralleled what went on in Ossetia, where there was an independence movement, they intervene conventionally to put down the independence movement, the United States and NATO responds with conventional air strikes, they then respond with tactical nuclear weapons.


It appears to me as if the Russians were preparing themselves to do that in this case. First of all, I think they believe the United States was going to intervene. At a news conference on Sunday, the deputy national security adviser said we have noted that the Russians have introduced two SS-21 medium-range ballistic missile launchers into South Ossetia. Now, let me say a little footnote about those. They’re both conventional and nuclear. They have a relatively small conventional warhead, however. So, the military significance, if they were to be conventional, was almost trivial compared to what the Russians could deliver with the aircraft that they were using to strike the Georgians.


I think this was a signal. I think this was an implementation on their part of their doctrine. It clearly appears as if they expected the United States to do what they had practiced in their exercises. In fact, this morning, the Russians had an air defense exercise in the southern part of Russia that borders Georgia in which they—it was practicing shooting down incursion aircraft that were incursion into Russia. They were prepared for the United States to intervene, and I think they were prepared—or at least they were wanting to show the United States that their doctrine of the use of tactical nuclear weapons, if the US attacks, was serious, and they needed to take—the United States needs to take Russia very seriously.


AMY GOODMAN: We’re talking to Colonel Sam Gardiner about this war that is taking place. Would you call it a war, Colonel Gardiner?


COL. SAM GARDINER: Well, you know, I like that term, and I wish I had invented it: it’s called "frozen conflicts.” It is in resolution of a conflict that’s been around for seventeen years. It was pushed off-center by the Georgians. Even the Georgians were reluctant to declare war. They declared a state of emergency. Certainly, the Russians haven’t declared war. In fact, I guess I would say, Amy, you know, with our war on terrorism, I don’t even know if there’s a definition of “war” anymore. Probably it’s best to call it a very serious conflict that could have been escalated.


AMY GOODMAN: And the significance of the pipeline that is there?


COL. SAM GARDINER: Well, the United States, beginning about ten years ago, obviously saw the vulnerability of the flow of oil out of the Persian Gulf. So the United States pushed very hard to set up a pipeline that went from Baku in Azerbaijan, taking out the Caspian Sea oil, to a port in Turkey, Ceyhan. That oil pipeline carries about one percent of the world’s oil supply.


Two weeks ago, that pipeline was blown up in a Turkish area by the Kurdish rebels that the Turks are fighting. There were reports that the Russians had bombed this over the weekend. Reports this morning, however, say—suggest that there hasn’t been an interruption, except that Azerbaijan has shut off flow in the pipeline. So this interferes with a major flow of oil to the economies of the West. It’s an important source of the oil flow.


AMY GOODMAN: Colonel Gardiner, I also wanted to ask you about the presidential candidates’ responses to the conflict—Senator Barack Obama and John McCain—the report coming out about John McCain’s adviser, Scheunemann—


COL. SAM GARDINER: Right.


AMY GOODMAN: —who helped a US firm win a Georgian energy firm deal while lobbying for Georgia’s NATO membership.


COL. SAM GARDINER: I must say that I have not heard a lot of good words from the McCain campaign about how to deal with this. It’s painful that the standard answer one gets is the testosterone-based foreign policy that we’ve seen for the last eight years. This is a very complex situation. And John McCain has said earlier that he wants to throw Russia out of the G8. That is absolutely the worst thing the United States could do. Russians have been saying—and the White House has not been listening—“We are a major player, and you have to listen to us.” This is the way the President said the Chinese are major players, and we now listen to them. The Russians have been saying that. The White House has ignored that.


I also would say, on the other hand, that this is one of those situations where Obama’s talk about it is probably not a good solution, either. The United States made some errors when it left the impression with the Georgians that our support somehow meant they were free to undertake this operation. That was clearly a bad idea that we communicated with them.


The other thing that is significant here is, there is an Israeli dimension to the problem. Israel has been training and supplying the army of Georgia. That’s caused some tensions within Israel, because there are those who believe that this just encourages the Russians to provide conventional arms to the Iranians. Israel has talked about it over the weekend, decided not to stop providing arms to the Georgians.


It isn’t over. There are a lot of strategic things that are going to fall out of this. Probably most important is that it’s not now Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran, it’s now Russia, Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran that our new president is going to have to deal with.


AMY GOODMAN: Colonel Sam Gardiner, I want to thank you for being with us. We’ll certainly continue to follow this conflict. Colonel Gardiner, retired Air Force colonel, has taught strategy and military operations at the National War College, as well as the Air War College and the Naval War College.

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/8/11/up_to_2_000_killed_as

[SuspectCorner]

Putin Slams U.S., Georgia’s Western Allies
From TruthDig.org ~ Posted on Aug 11, 2008

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin made his position vis-à-vis his country’s ongoing conflict with Georgia eminently clear on Monday, lamenting how, as he put it, the “aggressor” has been painted as the “victim” in the Western press (hint: said “aggressor” ain’t Russia).

Times Online:

The Russian Prime Minister blasted the West for continuing to support President Saakashvili despite Georgia’s attack on South Ossetia, which he said “wiped from the face of the earth ten Osettian villages”.

“The scale of cynicism is surprising and the skill to present white as black and black. The trick to present the aggressor as the victim of an aggression and to place the responsibly for the effects on the victims,” Mr Putin said.

He criticised the United States for transporting 800 Georgian soldiers from Iraq, some of whom have been deployed in Gori on the border of South Ossetia.

“It is lamentable that some of our partners are not helping us but are trying to stand in the way. I mean among other things the transfer of the Georgian military contingent from Iraq actually to the conflict zone by the military transport planes of the United States,” he said at Cabinet meeting today to discuss the military operation.

Russia warned the West that “the Georgian side was preparing aggression,” said Mr Putin. “Nobody was listening. And this is the result. We have finally come to it. However, Russia will of course carry out its peacekeeping mission to its logical end.”

(link to following article from [London] Times Online)

Vladmir Putin attacks the West's 'cynical support' for Georgia
From Times Online ~ August 11, 2008

A defiant Vladimir Putin hit out at America and the West today for its “cynical support” of Georgia, saying that Russia would continue its military operation until “its logical end”.

The Russian Prime Minister blasted the West for continuing to support President Saakashvili despite Georgia’s attack on South Ossetia, which he said “wiped from the face of the earth ten Osettian villages”.

“The scale of cynicism is surprising and the skill to present white as black and black. The trick to present the aggressor as the victim of an aggression and to place the responsibly for the effects on the victims,” Mr Putin said.

He criticised the United States for transporting 800 Georgian soldiers from Iraq, some of whom have been deployed in Gori on the border of South Ossetia.

“It is lamentable that some of our partners are not helping us but are trying to stand in the way. I mean among other things the transfer of the Georgian military contingent from Iraq actually to the conflict zone by the military transport planes of the United States,” he said at Cabinet meeting today to discuss the military operation.

Russia warned the West that “the Georgian side was preparing aggression,” said Mr Putin. “Nobody was listening. And this is the result. We have finally come to it. However, Russia will of course carry out its peacekeeping mission to its logical end.”

Earlier Moscow denied that its army would intensify its assault on Georgia and move farther into the country. But this afternoon the Russian military confirmed that it had starting fighting in the west Georgian city of Senaki to prevent Georgian troops from regrouping there.

European diplomats, including Bernard Kouchner, the French foreign minister, were set to head to Moscow with a ceasefire deal after meeting Mr Saakashvili in Tbilisi on Monday.

Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, the Secretary-General of Nato, said that he was “seriously concerned” about Russia’s response and its “lack of respect for the territorial integrity of Georgia,” a spokesperson said.

The statement followed President Bush’s comments in Beijing, where he was watching the Olympics. He said that he had spoken “firmly” to Mr Putin, who was directing the Kremlin’s actions in Georgia.

“I was very firm with Vladimir Putin,” Mr Bush told NBC Sports. “I expressed my grave concern about the disproportionate response of Russia. We strongly condemn bombing outside of South Ossetia.”

The Russian foreign ministry said: “Georgia must fulfil two fundamental conditions — withdraw all of its armed units to the border of the safety zone stipulated by the 1992 agreement and sign an agreement on the non-use of force with South Ossetia.”

The ministry said that 1,600 Ossetians died in Georgia’s attack, lower than the figure of 2,000 previously given. The Georgian Government has accused Russia today of committing war crimes similar to the Balkan conflict. Both claims were impossible to independently verify.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4507031.ece

[burmafrd]

I have heard Gardner before and I think he is a little biased. I noticed he did not mention the transparent passport and citizenship travesty that Russia has been doing for some time now. And it very much sounded like he was trying to find excuses for the Russians.

[Ben_n_austin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM_7O0dT7qY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpDO5ZyWazo&feature=related

:D

[SuspectCorner]

Putin's dangerous power politics
As the Russian prime minister escalates a "hot war" in the Caucasus, will Europe and the U.S. intervene?
By Jörg Himmelreich (From der Speigel) ~ Aug. 11, 2008

The South Ossetia conflict has been simmering since March, but it had taken the form of the controlled instability that had governed Russian-Georgian relations ever since the standstill agreement of June 24, 1992. The Georgian attack on the South Ossetia capital of Tskhinvali on Aug. 8 turned this "frozen conflict," as diplomats call it, into a hot proxy war. At present its potential for escalation seems virtually unlimited and has direct consequences for Europe's security.

Protecting South Ossetia's national culture and identity isn't the issue here. This is more about the local business dealings of the self-declared president of South Ossetia's de facto regime -- Eduard Kokoity, who isn't recognized by any government. His dealings play into the hands of Russian geopolitical interests and also serve Georgia, Europe and the United States.

South Ossetia has been part of Georgia since the fifth century. But the independence proclaimed in 1991 has proved a good earner for Kokoity. The Roki Tunnel, the only passable border crossing into North Ossetia, which belongs to Russia, is a much-used smuggling route. This conduit is in the hands of Kokoity and the so-called Russian peacekeepers.

Russia also supplies peacekeeping troops for Abkhazia, the other Georgian breakaway region. The dispatch of the Black Sea fleet to Abkhazia, and the bombing of the Georgian towns of Poti and Gori and of an aircraft factory near the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, show how determined Russia is to escalate this conflict. And how uninterested Russia is in living up to its role as a peacekeeping power.

Russia wants to prevent Georgia from joining NATO and it wants to topple Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, the initiator of this policy. Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's visit to the crisis region immediately after he attended the Opening Ceremonies of the Beijing Olympics shows clearly who is driving Russia's intervention. It also shows how weak Russian President Dmitri Medvedev's power base is, and how little his public speeches about protecting international law mean.

The Russian attacks are a blatant violation of Georgian territorial sovereignty, and the fact that many Abkhazians and South Ossetians have Russian passports provides no legal justification for Russia's actions.

Since Saakashvili came to power in 2004 with the "Rose Revolution," he has been urging the United States and Europe to take a greater role in helping to solve the conflicts. His calls have been in vain as far as Europe is concerned. Georgia is a member of the European Union's European Neighborhood Policy, but when it came to concrete steps to limit and prevent conflicts, Berlin in particular has been quite reticent -- in contrast with Sweden, Poland and the Baltic states.

Georgia's demands for European solidarity have been refused amid -- albeit justified -- criticism of the country's democratic shortcomings. The initiative by German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier to solve the Abkhazia conflict stemmed from the belated realization of the threat it poses for the people living there and for Europe's security. But it showed a surprising misunderstanding of the local power structures by calling on Abkhazia to permit the return of 250,000 displaced Georgians in a second step.

At present it's impossible to predict how far Russia will escalate the fighting. It can't be ruled out that large parts of Georgia will be bombed and occupied. Even under President Medvedev, Russia is showing its true face -- it is playing power politics. Every possible form of international pressure must be brought to bear, including in the U.N. Security Council, to stop Russia from further military actions.

In the end it will be up to Washington to show Russia the red line it must not cross, although the threshold for U.S. intervention will be very high. And for Berlin and Brussels, it's time to grant Georgia the kind of European solidarity that a European state is entitled to under the European Charter of Fundamental Rights.

This article has been provided by Der Spiegel through a special arrangement with Salon.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/08/11/putin_politics/

[Viper]

I guess the 66 billion given to Russia is the same as Germany after WWI.

???

[Vintage]

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's visit to the crisis region immediately after he attended the Opening Ceremonies of the Beijing Olympics shows clearly who is driving Russia's intervention. It also shows how weak Russian President Dmitri Medvedev's power base is, and how little his public speeches about protecting international law mean.


More or less, what we were afraid of...

[trickblue]

Not exactly - it's basically (after Putin's Purges of dissenting media) a propaganda arm of the Russian government. As such, it's a valuable lens through which to see their government's position. The interesting thing about this article, from my point of view, is that it exists. It is an attempt to justify the Russian incursion to the Russian people. Of course by portraying themselves as martyrs in this conflict, at least martyrs of public opinion. But it means to me that the Russian government feels the need to start a justification campaign amongst their own people.

Oh I didn't mean it legitimately. Only in the fact that they get about 20% of what they say right.

I read the English version of Pravda from time to time and they mix in politics with gossip. It is definitely an extension of the Russian government and used for those means.

One of the articles I read last month stated that the Bush presidency is in disarray as Bush is divorcing his wife after his term so he could be with his mistress, Condoleeza Rice.

Is his presidency in disarray? I think that could be argued yes. Is it because he's divorcing his wife for Condoleeza Rice? I highly doubt that...

[iceberg]

Oh I didn't mean it legitimately. Only in the fact that they get about 20% of what they say right.

I read the English version of Pravda from time to time and they mix in politics with gossip. It is definitely an extension of the Russian government and used for those means.

One of the articles I read last month stated that the Bush presidency is in disarray as Bush is divorcing his wife after his term so he could be with his mistress, Condoleeza Rice.

Is his presidency in disarray? I think that could be argued yes. Is it because he's divorcing his wife for Condoleeza Rice? I highly doubt that...

but if you see it in writing you believe it. just look at us in here with our facination of what we find writers writing.