The media vetting continues: Palin's church, Palin wanted to ban books

[MilesAustinforMVP]

Stein says that as mayor, Palin continued to inject religious beliefs into her policy at times. "She asked the library how she could go about banning books," he says, because some voters thought they had inappropriate language in them. "The librarian was aghast." That woman, Mary Ellen Baker, couldn't be reached for comment, but news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened to fire Baker for not giving "full support" to the mayor.

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1837918,00.html

Brickner also described terrorist attacks on Israelis as God's "judgment of unbelief" of Jews who haven't embraced Christianity.

"Judgment is very real and we see it played out on the pages of the newspapers and on the television. It's very real. When [Brickner's son] was in Jerusalem he was there to witness some of that judgment, some of that conflict, when a Palestinian from East Jerusalem took a bulldozer and went plowing through a score of cars, killing numbers of people. Judgment — you can't miss it."

Palin was in church that day, Kroon said, though he cautioned against attributing Brickner’s views to her.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13098.html

[zrinkill]

:lmao2:

The Change in politics continues!

[masomenos]

:lmao2:

The Change in politics continues!

....?

[MilesAustinforMVP]

:lmao2:

The Change in politics continues!

Those are completely relevant issues. Neither story attacks her family. Not sure what you mean by that. Both stories are completely fair game.

[VietCowboy]

the first is hearsay. prove it.

[MilesAustinforMVP]

the first is hearsay. prove it.

Time magazine is pretty reliable.

[VietCowboy]

Time magazine is pretty reliable.

it does not matter who reported it when you have no direct quote from Palin, and the evidence is from a 3rd person who was not present at the alleged conversation with the librarian, nor did the librarian confirm it.

[masomenos]

it does not matter who reported it when you have no direct quote from Palin, and the evidence is from a 3rd person who was not present at the alleged conversation with the librarian, nor did the librarian confirm it.

It would be interesting to see the news reports that they talk about from when the event allegedly happened.

[Rack Bauer]

Palin was in church that day, Kroon said, though he cautioned against attributing Brickner’s views to her.


Osama Bin Laden believes we are the devils of the earth...


but I caution you not to attribute his Views to Palin.

[dbair1967]

Time magazine is pretty reliable.

the same Time magazine thats had Obama on the cover 7 or 8 times now?

David

[MilesAustinforMVP]

the same Time magazine thats had Obama on the cover 7 or 8 times now?

David

Yep. It was also the same time magazine that had Bush person of the year in '04.

[zrinkill]

Those are completely relevant issues. Neither story attacks her family. Not sure what you mean by that. Both stories are completely fair game.

These are the same as the Obama is a racist and Obama is a terrorist stories.

I called those crap as well.

[MilesAustinforMVP]

These are the same as the Obama is a racist and Obama is a terrorist stories.


No they are not. Not even close. And can't imagine you actually believe that.

[ScipioCowboy]

This is nothin'.

According to my sources, Sarah Palin was personally caught burning copies of Charles Darwin's Origin of the Species while kicking puppies and kittens off the side of a cliff.;)

[ConcordCowboy]

Yep. It was also the same time magazine that had Bush person of the year in '04.


:laugh2:

[masomenos]

These are the same as the Obama is a racist and Obama is a terrorist stories.

I called those crap as well.

I just questioned what you said because you laughed and then mocked the idea of "Change" in politics. It seems that you were taking a dig at Obama considering the fact that his tag-line is "Change". Just seemed like an odd statement.

[masomenos]

This is nothin'.

According to my sources, Sarah Palin was personally caught burning copies of Charles Darwin's Origin of the Species while kicking puppies and kittens off the side of a cliff.;)

Testing to see if the puppies and kittens could evolve wings quickly enough to save themselves no doubt. A simple test of scientific theory.

[zrinkill]

I just questioned what you said because you laughed and then mocked the idea of "Change" in politics. It seems that you were either taking a dig at Obama considering the fact that his tag-line is "Change". Just seemed like an odd statement.

No .... I am mocking his supporters who are not following his lead.

If they truly believed in the man then they would follow his example.

[theebs]

I heard around 1984 she lived in a town that banned Dancing?

Has anyone else heard this?

[MilesAustinforMVP]

No .... I am mocking his supporters who are not following his lead.

If they truly believed in the man then they would follow his example.

I raised valid concerns regarding her commitment to our only ally in the Mid East, Israel, and her views on freedom of speech. I wasn't calling her a bigot or a terrorist or anything dirty like that.

[zrinkill]

No they are not. Not even close. And can't imagine you actually believe that.

These are the same as Obama and his relationship and business dealings with that terrorist and his preachers radical racists statements .....

Its exactly the same ...... just because it is now happening to the people you are against does not make it any different.

Its gutter politics.

[MilesAustinforMVP]

These are the same as Obama and his relationship and business dealings with that terrorist and his preachers radical racists statements .....

Its exactly the same ...... just because it is now happening to the people you are against does not make it any different.

Its gutter politics.

I think making false statements about someone being a terrorist is a little different...

[ScipioCowboy]

I heard around 1984 she lived in a town that banned Dancing?

Has anyone else heard this?

I also heard that this town singlehandedly thwarted a secret Soviet invasion in the same year. So it all balances out.:)

[ScipioCowboy]

Testing to see if the puppies and kittens could evolve wings quickly enough to save themselves no doubt. A simple test of scientific theory.

Apparently, natural selection and mutation didn't work quickly enough to save any of those poor puppies and kittens.;)

[masomenos]

No .... I am mocking his supporters who are not following his lead.

If they truly believed in the man then they would follow his example.

Well I don't know that that's necessarily how it works. It should, yes, but people struggle to meet the standards of their "leaders" with regularity. It's the same thing that's seen in religion, there are a lot of people who claim a certain faith but who don't follow through in the practices. And I say that half jokingly in reference to the, how does trickblue put it, Black Messiah title held by Obama. I know that politics and religion are different but I think the fundamental point in the analogy remains the same.

It doesn't justify it for either crowd, but it's not something that's uncommon by any means.

[masomenos]

Apparently, natural selection and mutation didn't work quickly enough to save any of those poor puppies and kittens.;)

Evolution debunked! :eek:

[ScipioCowboy]

Evolution debunked! :eek:

Yes.

Richard Dawkins was actually seen entering a Christian Church...and then he burst into flames.:)

[masomenos]

Yes.

Richard Dawkins was actually seen entering a Christian Church...and then he burst into flames.:)

'Tis a shame. Myself, I'm currently waiting for the reports of Christopher Hitchens turning into a pillar of salt.

Don't look back Chris, don't ever look back.

[MilesAustinforMVP]

'Tis a shame. Myself, I'm currently waiting for the reports of Christopher Hitchens turning into a pillar of salt.

Don't look back Chris, don't ever look back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doKkOSMaTk4

You gotta love the guy. Especially when he makes Ralph Reed look like a corrupt little fool.

[BrAinPaiNt]

This is nothin'.

According to my sources, Sarah Palin was personally caught burning copies of Charles Darwin's Origin of the Species while kicking puppies and kittens off the side of a cliff.;)

:laugh2: :laugh2:

[iceberg]

This is nothin'.

According to my sources, Sarah Palin was personally caught burning copies of Charles Darwin's Origin of the Species while kicking puppies and kittens off the side of a cliff.;)

i was ok with it till the cliff came in. after that she should have made it an olympic sport.

[Dallas]

So TIME tracks down her ex opponent in the Wasilla Mayors race, that she trounced solidly for an up to the second re-hash of what went on in the Mayors race in 1996.

I was here while she was Mayor of Wasilla. She has been the most popular Mayor that town has had ever. Feel free to check that out if you want. Wasilla and Alaska love Palin.

Stein got trounced. Sour grapes from that dude is just par the course. Here is something I dug up about some things regarding her Mayor race in Wasilla and her. It's a good read and gives you much more insight into Sarah than some left leaning blah read like Time. No offense to you Time subscribers out there.

************************************************** ********


'Fresh face' launched Palin

RISING STAR: Wasilla mayor was groomed from an early political age.
By TOM KIZZIA
Anchorage Daily News
First of two parts
Published: October 23, 2006

Last Modified: November 4, 2006 at 10:02 AM
WASILLA -- Sarah Palin's campaign for governor sounds a lot like her campaign for mayor of Wasilla 10 years ago, when she made her first big move in Alaska politics.

http://dwb.adn.com/photo/2006/10/24/2364995-150-x-223.jpg (http://community.adn.com/mini_apps/assetDisplay/?ref=http://dwb.adn.com/photo/2006/10/24/2364995.jpg&summ=Palin &sec=/news/politics&width=&height=)


In 1996, Palin ran against an "old boy network" that she said controlled local government. She vowed to replace "stale leadership" and a "tax-and-spend" mentality with "fresh ideas and energy."

Local voters warmed to Palin's ease in public and her disarming personal touch as much as to her conservative message. And she was a local girl: daughter of a popular local teacher and coach, she was a one-time Miss Wasilla and, in a basketball-mad town, was practically canonized as the point guard for Wasilla's 1982 girls' state championship team.

But her political opponents say there was another side to the charming candidate -- one captured by her nickname from those basketball years, "Sarah Barracuda." Supporters consider the name a testament to her aggressive play and ferocious defense. But opponents said the name captured a predatory instinct that Palin could turn on friend as well as foe -- one they said occasionally revealed itself in the mayoral years to come.
During her first run for mayor, critics complained that Palin, at 32, was too young and inexperienced.

The Wasilla mayor was a full-time, $68,000-a-year job. They objected to a quiet campaign by some Palin supporters raising emotional issues like abortion and gun control, which had no apparent tie to municipal politics.

And they said that by posing for ads with the area's Republican legislators, who implied they could work better with her than her opponent, she was injecting divisive party politics into what was technically a nonpartisan race.
The high-profile support from local Republicans was hardly surprising, however. Party officials say Palin was already being groomed for bigger and better things, even as she talked about sewers and road-paving projects. In Alaska's fastest-growing region, Palin was the fresh young face of the suddenly dominant Republicans.

But Palin's path to the governor's race took an unexpected turn.
In 2003, she made a dramatic break with the party leadership, including Gov. Frank Murkowski, over ethics issues. The turn against her sponsors could have left Palin an exile from mainstream politics. Instead, it propelled her to a landslide victory over Murkowski in this year's primary.

Palin's rebellion drew her into the Outsider camp on other issues as well, notably in support for a proposed in-state liquefied natural gas pipeline. Now, as the Republican nominee up against an "old guard" from both parties, Palin is once again pitching "fresh ideas." Her campaign has sometimes struggled this fall to get those ideas and positions into clear focus. But they seem almost secondary.

The main product Palin is selling this year, as in Wasilla 10 years ago, is Palin herself.

BASKETBALL SUCCESS


"I know this sounds hokey, but basketball was a life-changing experience for me," Palin said recently on a rare night home in Wasilla, while her 5-year-old daughter, Piper, worked on homework at the kitchen counter. "It's all about setting a goal, about discipline, teamwork, and then success."

Palin has been telling interviewers about the 1982 state tournament at West High in Anchorage for at least a decade, including the self-effacing line about its being "hokey."

The experience clearly was profound for her. Nobody gave the Wasilla Warrior girls' team much chance that season, after losing in the state finals the year before and graduating several key players. But with senior Sarah Heath as co-captain, Wasilla knocked off top-ranked East 50-48, then defeated another Anchorage school, Service, 58-53 in the state final.

Chuck Heath, Sarah's father, was cross-country running coach for Wasilla. He and his wife, Sally, a school secretary, say she was stubborn and hard-working from an early age. She wasn't an especially gifted runner, he recalls, but she applied her "workaholic" temperament to turn herself into one of the cross-country team's best racers.

"Starting when she was 2 years old, she was hard to bend. We couldn't change her mind," Chuck Heath said.

The Heaths came to Alaska from Idaho in 1964, when Sarah was 3 months old. They lived in Skagway and Eagle River before settling long-term in Wasilla. Chuck Heath, retired at 68, is a lifelong hunter -- his house is densely populated with trophies and antlers, and this fall he loaded the Palins' freezer with moose and bear meat from a hunt on the McLaren River.

Palin's parents say they are not political and don't know how she decided to turn her ambition and work ethic toward politics. Her Christian faith, they say, came from her mother, who took her children to area Bible churches as they were growing up (Sarah is the third of four siblings).

They say her faith has been steady since high school, when she led the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, and grew stronger as she sought out believers in her college years.

Palin doesn't brandish her religion on the campaign trail, but that doesn't prevent others from doing so. After she was first elected mayor, her predecessor, John Stein, objected that a Valley cable TV program had hailed her as Wasilla's first "Christian mayor." In a column for the local newspaper, he named eight previous mayors and added that he, too, was a Christian, despite a name that led some voters to suspect "I must be a non-Christian, have non-Christian blood or at least have sympathized with a non-Christian sometime in my career."

MISS CONGENIALITY


In her high school yearbook, the future gubernatorial candidate quoted the Bible, signed the class page "Sarah Heath #22," and listed a demure ambition: to sit in a broadcast booth with Howard Cosell broadcasting basketball games played by her boyfriend, Todd Palin.

Sarah went on to study journalism and political science in college, graduating from the University of Idaho in 1987. Along the way she competed in the Miss Alaska contest after being chosen Miss Wasilla 1984. In the Wasilla contest, she played the flute and also won the title of Miss Congeniality.

Curt Menard, a longtime family friend who was just elected Mat-Su Borough mayor this fall, said his wife was the one who encouraged and coached Palin in the beauty contests.

"I think that got her into the competitive mode, appearing in front of the public speaking and presenting herself," he said.

Sarah and Todd eloped in 1988, slipping away to the Palmer Courthouse where, learning they needed witnesses, they enlisted two from the pioneers' home across the street, one in a wheelchair and one with a walker. They eloped because they were poor at the time and didn't want their parents to foot the bill for a wedding, she says today.

"I tell my kids, 'Don't do what I did,' " she said. She is the mother of four. Her oldest, son Track, is attending high school and playing hockey in Michigan this year. Daughters Bristol, Willow and Piper attend Wasilla public schools.
Sarah Palin worked short stints as a television sportscaster for Anchorage stations, "between babies."

Todd Palin, who has been a quiet background presence in her campaign, broadens the family resume considerably: fisherman, oil field worker and Alaska Native. The family fishes a commercial setnet site on the Nushagak River in Bristol Bay every summer. Todd has worked 18 years on the North Slope for BP, where he is now a production operator, a job Sarah says he would quit if she's elected. His Yup'ik grandmother, Helena Andree, grew up in a traditional Native household in Bristol Bay and now lives in Homer.

Todd Palin is also a three-time winner of the Iron Dog snowmachine race, the 2,000-mile trek from Wasilla to Nome to Fairbanks that's billed as the world's longest snowmobile race. That experience proved useful several weeks ago -- and not with the NASCAR voting demographic.

At a statewide chiropractors convention, Sarah Palin had little specific to offer on the group's complicated legal and Medicaid questions.

But she showed her ability to relate to audiences in a personal, almost Clintonlike way when she brought up the pounding journeys to Nome. Todd wouldn't be standing today without the help of his chiropractor, she said, and the Sheraton Hotel ballroom erupted in applause.

WASILLA TAX CUTS


This year, an accomplishment mentioned perhaps most often by Palin's supporters is that she cut taxes as mayor of Wasilla. Ironically, she took her first steps into local politics with the intent of preserving a controversial new tax and expanding local government.

In 1992, when Palin first ran for city council, Wasilla had just adopted a 2 percent sales tax and was setting up a police department. The 28-year-old Palin was approached by several council members to help them fight off anti-tax elements, who were saying no new stores would ever come to Wasilla if it had a sales tax. A 1992 Palin ad called her a "new face, new voice," who would work for "a safer, more progressive Wasilla."

As it turned out, the new sales tax built the infrastructure that turned Wasilla into the Mat-Su area's commercial hub. Booming sales tax revenues also made possible Palin's other tax cuts after she became mayor in 1996.

To become mayor, however, Palin had to bump off three-term incumbent John Stein, who had ushered in the sales tax and police force. Three terms were enough, she said. He had lost touch with the community. It was time for a change. The voters agreed.

Wasilla's growth was taking off, and Palin pushed for bonds to build sewer, water and roads. New big-box stores wanted to be in the city so they could get sewer, water and police protection, even if it meant being annexed.
Palin's city was not necessarily an aesthetic crown jewel, especially along the Parks Highway, but the long snake of stores was doing good business. Sales tax revenues grew by half a million dollars a year. Much of the revenue was coming from people who lived outside the town.

Palin was able to cut property taxes by three-quarters while eliminating small taxes such as the personal property tax and the business inventory tax. She wasn't doing this by shrinking government, however: The cost of running the growing city, apart from capital projects and debt, rose from $3.9 million in fiscal 1996 to $5.8 million in fiscal 2002. Excess sales tax revenues went to paying for capital improvements such as roads and government buildings, says city finance director Ted Leonard.

Palin had priorities. She shrank the local museum's budget and deterred talk of a new library and city hall. But she also put in bike paths and obtained funds for storm-water treatment to protect the area's many lakes. She successfully pushed a half-percent sales tax increase to build a $15 million multi-use indoor ice arena. The popular sports complex is not breaking even, as its advocates projected, but the city's subsidy has been cut from $600,000 to $125,000 a year.

A like-minded majority on the city council smoothed her way. That's not to say her six years as mayor went smoothly, especially at first.

After turning out the three-term incumbent, Palin brought in an outside attorney, with city funds, to advise on the transition. She asked for resignation letters from six top department heads, saying they'd signed a letter supporting their former boss. She fired two of them -- the police chief and the museum director -- but within a year two others had quit. With the local newspaper, the Frontiersman, upset about the uproar, a citizens group started meeting to discuss a recall of the new mayor. The idea was eventually dropped.

Palin has cited her mayoral work as a central part of her qualification to serve as governor. But at the beginning of her term, asked by the local newspaper how she would run the city without experienced department heads, she made the job sound like no big deal: "It's not rocket science. It's $6 million and 53 employees."

Battling over appointments to vacant city council seats, Palin said at the time, "Some of the things I'm doing, it's obvious I'm not running for Miss Congeniality. I'm running the city."

LOCAL CRITICS


Palin's current opponents, Tony Knowles and Andrew Halcro, are saying her experience as mayor didn't prepare her sufficiently to be governor. Palin says Wasilla was a good rough-and-tumble training ground for a 32-year-old first-time mayor.

"Looking back now, it seems kind of young. At the time, it seemed perplexing that people would object," she says. "I was very bold about what needed to be done.

"I went through a lot with the press, with the legislative body, and it was rough with a staff who didn't want to be there working with a new boss," she says. "I learned you've got to be very discerning early on and decide if you can win them over or not. If you can't, you replace them early on." She added that she doesn't want to be surrounded by yes-men.

Some of Palin's hiring as mayor proved almost as controversial as her firings.
She quickly hired a deputy administrator, reworking the city budget to find money for the $50,000-a-year position, which had been empty for several years. Critics said it showed she wasn't up to the job, but Palin defended it as necessary for the fast-growing city.

Critics also noted that the deputy, John Cramer, had been hired from the staff of Sen. Lyda Green, one of the local Republicans who had endorsed Palin in the race. They said it smacked of party patronage.

Similar complaints arose when Palin hired a public works director with no engineering background, Cindy Roberts, who had been a Commerce Department official in the administration for former Gov. Wally Hickel. The wife of longtime Hickel aide Malcolm Roberts, she lasted a year in the job. The city also replaced its longtime attorney with Republican Party attorney Ken Jacobus.

Palin defends the choices, saying they all performed well for the city. She said the attorney choice was made by the city council.
A number of other disputes flared up and died down in the first year. The Frontiersman, which sparred with Palin frequently at first, accused her of rolling her eyes and making faces at city council meetings when she heard testimony she didn't like.

Many Palin opponents from her mayoral years, including Stein, who made a failed comeback bid in 1999, declined to speak for this story. One who spoke freely was her staunchest critic on the council, Nick Carney.

"The day-to-day was beyond her," he said, criticizing her hiring of Cramer and her treatment of the incumbent department heads. "It was the barracuda in her that came out, that 'Those guys were on the side of John Stein and I'm going to get rid of them.' "

Carney, part of an extended and prominent Wasilla-area family that has seen many children through public schools, said Palin's high-school nickname came from her efforts to get more playing time on the basketball court.
"She wasn't what she appeared," he said.

Palin smiled and sighed at the mention of her old adversary's name.

"I couldn't do anything without Nick Carney griping about it. That was the nature of our relationship," Palin said. "I could have walked across Lake Lucile on the water, and he would have griped about me splashing."

For Palin, her landslide re-election in 1999 answered the critics. It was the one election where her slogan changed from "new ideas" to "stay the course."
"I took that as a mandate that we were on the right path," she said.

CHOSEN ONE


Palin's rise came as the Valley's politics were changing sharply from Democratic to Republican.

An influx of conservative voters and the new district lines drawn with Hickel in the governor's office changed the local political scene. In 1994, three Republicans were elected to legislative seats in the area, defeating Democrats. None of them had any more experience than Palin brought to the mayor's race, said Tuckerman Babcock, the Republican official who redrew the lines for Hickel.

"They didn't see any contradiction to getting young people in office," Babcock said.

The national Republican Party was encouraging local party officials to groom a new generation of candidates, officials say. Palin was an obvious selection, say local party officials Roy and June Burkhart of Willow. Roy is head of the District 15 party, while June sits on the state party's executive board.
"Not only that, we've got some in the bullpen. You'll be hearing about them, too," Roy Burkhart said recently.

Another young Mat-Su Republican candidate being groomed that way was Beverly Masek, first elected to the Legislature in 1994, Babcock said. Her bright flame guttered out in a series of no-shows and an electoral defeat in 2004.

In Palin's last year as mayor, she headed straight to her next race, entering the 2002 Republican primary for lieutenant governor. The winner was going to run at the side of Frank Murkowski.

"She thought it would be a very good opportunity to be mentored," said Babcock, who is now manager of government affairs for Matanuska Electric Association and a close Palin confidant. "She had a lot of confidence she was going to win that race."

The other candidates were Robin Taylor, Gail Phillips and the eventual winner, Loren Leman. All were veteran legislators with long experience in Juneau. Officially, the party under chairman Randy Ruedrich remained neutral. But it didn't always feel that way to Palin's opponents, Phillips said recently.

"It was Randy that really talked the Republican Party into her being the bright and shining star, to the point there was a lot of preference within the leadership," Phillips said. "Boy, it was there. The three of us would discuss it among ourselves. We were saying, hey, how about experience?"
Recalling that race, Palin concedes her opponents all had impressive experience in the Legislature.

"But that's not what Alaska needed," she says. "The state needed new blood in there. A candidate with new energy and new ideas."

[bobtheflob]

Slightly off topic, but does anyone know what time Palin is scheduled to speak at the convention tonight?

[iceberg]

So TIME tracks down her ex opponent in the Wasilla Mayors race, that she trounced solidly for an up to the second re-hash of what went on in the Mayors race in 1996.

I was here while she was Mayor of Wasilla. She has been the most popular Mayor that town has had ever. Feel free to check that out if you want. Wasilla and Alaska love Palin."

statement like this mean far more to me than articles out there designed to be clever at their "victims" expense. stating the truth is done thing and we all should.

stating it with a slant and hate and "comments" personal in nature scream agenda to me and i quit listening.

[ScipioCowboy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doKkOSMaTk4

You gotta love the guy. Especially when he makes Ralph Reed look like a corrupt little fool.

You mean the same Christopher Hitchens who endorsed George W. Bush for President in 2004 and threw his full support behind the Iraq War solely on grounds that we were killing religious fundamentalists?

That Christopher Hitchens?

:laugh2:

[Dallas]

Slightly off topic, but does anyone know what time Palin is scheduled to speak at the convention tonight?


10:30PM EST


6:30PM AK TIME :)

[theebs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doKkOSMaTk4

You gotta love the guy. Especially when he makes Ralph Reed look like a corrupt little fool.


Oh dear. There is a special place in my heart for hitchens.

[masomenos]

Slightly off topic, but does anyone know what time Palin is scheduled to speak at the convention tonight?

Sometime around 10pm EST I think.

[iceberg]

You mean the same Christopher Hitchens who endorsed George W. Bush for President and threw his full support behind the Iraq War solely on grounds that we were killing religious fundamentalists?

That Christopher Hitchens?

:laugh2:

stop it scipio - you know some people only love you when you say what they want. you can just as easily be a fool to a fool. :)

[MilesAustinforMVP]

You mean the same Christopher Hitchens who endorsed George W. Bush for President in 2004 and threw his full support behind the Iraq War solely on grounds that we were killing religious fundamentalists?

That Christopher Hitchens?

:laugh2:

I obviously don't agree with all of his foreign policy stances, but I do agree with him when it comes to religion and a lot of liberal values.

[masomenos]

You mean the same Christopher Hitchens who endorsed George W. Bush for President in 2004 and threw his full support behind the Iraq War solely on grounds that we were killing religious fundamentalists?

That Christopher Hitchens?

:laugh2:

One in the same. That's what I love about him, he can't be claimed by either party...and I'm not sure that either party would want him if they could claim him, lol.

[ScipioCowboy]

I obviously don't agree with all of his foreign policy stances, but I do agree with him when it comes to religion and a lot of liberal values.

So you're perfectly fine with someone endorsing "war criminals" and "book burners" as long as he or she is an atheist.

Interesting.

[ScipioCowboy]

stop it scipio - you know some people only love you when you say what they want. you can just as easily be a fool to a fool. :)

Now you see why I'm so reviled by many rabid secularists on the Left.;)

[MilesAustinforMVP]

So you're perfectly fine with someone endorsing a "war criminals" and "book burners" as long as he or she is an atheist.

Interesting.

No, I think we all make mistakes. Hitchens is more like the surly wino uncle of the liberal movement. He does some things that make you scratch your head, but he does other things that make you laugh and squeal with delight.

[MilesAustinforMVP]

Now you see why I'm so reviled by many rabid secularists on the Left.;)

I think you confuse us atheists with secularists. Secularists can be some of the most devout religious folk, but they will staunchly believe in separation of church and state. Atheists like me don't believe in organized religion or any sort of deity or deities.

[ScipioCowboy]

No, I think we all make mistakes. Hitchens is more like the surly wino uncle of the liberal movement. He does some things that make you scratch your head, but he does other things that make you laugh and squeal with delight.

I'll interpret this response as a "yes."

All of these activities and policies to which you are so diametrically opposed and that you deem the very pinnacle of corruption become perfectly acceptable to you when they advance your causes.

[dbair1967]

Palin apporval ratings as governor: 80%+++

democratic controlled congress and senate: single digits

[ScipioCowboy]

I think you confuse us atheists with secularists. Secularists can be some of the most devout religious folk, but they will staunchly believe in separation of church and state. Atheists like me don't believe in organized religion or any sort of deity or deities.

In a functional political sense, the difference between atheists and the most rabid secularists is often no difference at all...much like the difference between methodological naturalism and metaphysical naturalism. In an epistemological sense, they're identical.

[MilesAustinforMVP]

I'll interpret this response as a "yes."

All of these activities and policies to which you are so diametrically opposed and that you deem the very pinnacle of corruption become perfectly acceptable to you when they advance your causes.

I don't think supporting Bush advances my causes. I don't agree with him on some things, but I do on most other things. It just so happens the one thing we disagree on is Iraq, which is a rather large issue.

[MilesAustinforMVP]

Palin apporval ratings as governor: 80%+++

democratic controlled congress and senate: single digits

And yet even most Republicans will concede that Dems will pickup around 15 seats in the house this election.

[ScipioCowboy]

I don't think supporting Bush advances my causes. I don't agree with him on some things, but I do on most other things. It just so happens the one thing we disagree on is Iraq, which is a rather large issue.

Yet this great disdain you harbor for President Bush because of the Iraq war completely evaporates when the topic changes to Christopher Hitchens, who also supports the Iraq War.

Forgive me if I find your position just a trifle intellectually disingenuous.

[MilesAustinforMVP]

Yet this great disdain you harbor for President Bush because of the Iraq war completely evaporates when the topic changes to Christopher Hitchens, who also supports the Iraq War.

Forgive me if I find your position just a trifle intellectually disingenuous.

I don't hate all people who voted for Bush believe it or not. Just because someone supported him, doesn't mean I will automatically attribute all of Bush's bad qualities to that particular person. You may think like that, but I don't.

[Aikbach]

This woman is dynamite, and she's blowing up the socialist parade, endangering the dream of a man-made utopia.

Ovaries in the Oval Office is not progress when its not a liberal I guess.

[ScipioCowboy]

I don't hate all people who voted for Bush believe it or not. Just because someone supported him, doesn't mean I will automatically attribute all of Bush's bad qualities to that particular person. You may think like that, but I don't.

This isn't an issue of "hating" people because of their political views. You may think like that, but I certainly don't.

I simply find it comical that you attack Bush so viciously for his foreign policy in Iraq while simultaneously revering Hitchens, who has expressed open support for the Bush administration's Iraq policy.

[Jarv]

This woman is dynamite, and she's blowing up the socialist parade, endangering the dream of a man-made utopia.

Ovaries in the Oval Office is not progress when its not a liberal I guess.

Lol...Now that was a good and funny post ! Congrats !

[zrinkill]

This woman is dynamite, and she's blowing up the socialist parade, endangering the dream of a man-made utopia.

Ovaries in the Oval Office is not progress when its not a liberal I guess.

:bow:

[MilesAustinforMVP]

This isn't an issue of "hating" people because of their political views. You may think like that, but I certainly don't.

I simply find it comical that you attack Bush so viciously for his foreign policy in Iraq while simultaneously revering Hitchens, who has expressed open support for the Bush administration's Iraq policy.

Firstly Hitchens is not in any sort of position to end the war, so I am less fervent with my disgust with his position on Iraq. Moreover, I agree with him on the vast majority of issues, which all in all outweigh his support for Iraq. Me liking someone and that someone supporting the war in Iraq is not mutually exclusive, and I never said so. You just assumed.

[ScipioCowboy]

I don't hate all people who voted for Bush believe it or not. Just because someone supported him, doesn't mean I will automatically attribute all of Bush's bad qualities to that particular person. You may think like that, but I don't.

Firstly Hitchens is not in any sort of position to end the war, so I am less fervent with my disgust with his position on Iraq. Moreover, I agree with him on the vast majority of issues, which all in all outweigh his support for Iraq. Me liking someone and that someone supporting the war in Iraq is not mutually exclusive, and I never said so. You just assumed.

Once again, my issue has nothing to do with your like or hate of a person based on his or her political views, and I'm befuddled as to why you keep broaching this particular topic. You seem unable to detach your personal feelings about someone from your opinions on his or her politics. That sounds remarkably like someone else I know.

Christopher Hitchens's support for the Iraq War was hardly a grudging affair. He enthusiastically spoke out in favor of the war and then endorsed President Bush's reelection campaign in 2004. In essence, Hitchens threw his full weight as a public figure and noted author behind the current US foreign policy in Iraq.

Yet, despite his fervent support of a war that you deplore and that you've relentlessly castigated the Bush administration for, you still extol Hitchens.

And the only difference I can discern between Bush and Hitchens on the Iraq issue is that Hitchens is an atheist and has used atheist rhetoric to garner support for the war.

[bbgun]

The Obamaphiles are on very shaky ground when it comes to claims of censorship. They tried to suppress an Obama-Bill Ayers commercial, hounded a radio station for daring to book a conservative critic of Obama's, and are imploring the U. of Illinois not to release documents which could shed more light on his association with Ayers and other radicals.

[trickblue]

This woman is dynamite, and she's blowing up the socialist parade, endangering the dream of a man-made utopia.

Ovaries in the Oval Office is not progress when its not a liberal I guess.

I have a new campaign slogan for them...

"Ovaries over Obama in the Oval Office"... :D

[dbair1967]

And yet even most Republicans will concede that Dems will pickup around 15 seats in the house this election.

maybe they will, we shall see...hopefully the one's elected to office wont be the Pelosi's, Reid's and Obama's of the world. There are some good democrats, its the one's to the far left who support this socialist agenda that need to be doen away with. Socialism doesnt work. Never has, never will.

David

[dbair1967]

The Obamaphiles are on very shaky ground when it comes to claims of censorship. They tried to suppress an Obama-Bill Ayers commercial, hounded a radio station for daring to book a conservative critic of Obama's, and are imploring the U. of Illinois not to release documents which could shed more light on his association with Ayers and other radicals.

funny how we wont hear about any of it on NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN or MSNBC

wonder why that might be?

This clown has had the easiest ride ever on the campaign trail.

[bbgun]

funny how we wont hear about any of it on NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN or MSNBC

wonder why that might be?

This clown has had the easiest ride ever on the campaign trail.

If only they'd shown half as much interest in Rezko, Wright, Ayers, etc. Instead, they're obsessed with a 17-yo girl, who, last time I checked, wasn't running for leader of the free world.

[BigDFan5]

Time magazine is pretty reliable.


I agree

oh wait.....


http://www.carlschaad.com/blog/blogpics/times.jpg

[BigDFan5]

Yep. It was also the same time magazine that had Bush person of the year in '04.

As well as Putin last year

Gorbachev twice

Stalin twice

Hitler

"the endangered earth"

Clinton

whistleblowers

Leader of the chinese communist party twice


Ayatollah Khomeini

etc etc

[Cajuncowboy]

Why are threads allowed to stay open when someone says something that requires a biblical explanation but yet it is forbidden via the forum rules?

[iceberg]

Why are threads allowed to stay open when someone says something that requires a biblical explanation but yet it is forbidden via the forum rules?

did you report it?

[VietCowboy]

Why are threads allowed to stay open when someone says something that requires a biblical explanation but yet it is forbidden via the forum rules?

can you PM your answer?

[ThaBigP]

Time magazine is pretty reliable.

It's the "little boy who cried wolf" syndrome. Not only from mainstream meadia, but especially the blogosphere. I've read comments, ON THIS BOARD, that Palin "wanted to outlaw condoms". A direct quote from a poster... It's getting idiotic, folks.

[Cajuncowboy]

did you report it?

No, it's the same old same old. The left think they have something but they refuse to understand the meaning behind what they are saying. They are clueless.