To: The GROZ

[t-rock]

It seems to me that you guys should be watching Kalen Thornton over the rest of the year.
Let's say he comes on, gets a few sacks and has his best days as the seson comes to a close?
Does Parcells grab the LB Derrick Johnson from Texas, a big DT in FA, run a 3-4 and....fire Zimmer?

[phdefense]

It seems to me that you guys should be watching Kalen Thornton over the rest of the year.
Let's say he comes on, gets a few sacks and has his best days as the seson comes to a close?
Does Parcells grab the LB Derrick Johnson from Texas, a big DT in FA, run a 3-4 and....fire Zimmer?


Fire Zimmer? Yes
3-4? No

[Hostile]

It seems to me that you guys should be watching Kalen Thornton over the rest of the year.
Let's say he comes on, gets a few sacks and has his best days as the seson comes to a close?
Does Parcells grab the LB Derrick Johnson from Texas, a big DT in FA, run a 3-4 and....fire Zimmer?
What do you do with Glover, the best DL we have on the team?

We do NOT have the personnel for a 3-4.

[jimmy40]

What do you do with Glover, the best DL we have on the team?

We do NOT have the personnel for a 3-4.Our 4-3 personnel aren't too great either.

[Hostile]

Our 4-3 personnel aren't too great either.
I'd say Glover is.

So we need work on the D.

Do we go even further backwards and get rid of the 1 good DL we have?

Thanks, no.

[t-rock]

What do you do with Glover, the best DL we have on the team?

We do NOT have the personnel for a 3-4.

I think with Johnson and a big DT the team does have the personnel for a 3-4.
On the line you'd have Greg, the FA DT and Glover, with a deeper rotation. On passing downs you might have Greg, LaRoi at the tackle and Obogu or the best performing of the other DE's.
At LB you'd have Dexter, rook, Bradie James, Kalen, Dat, Singleton and two other special teams guys. That's a nice mix.

[Nors]

What do you do with Glover, the best DL we have on the team?

We do NOT have the personnel for a 3-4.


We have the personnel to suck in a 4-3, wohhooooo and PROVEN, your point? Keep this D intact?



@#$%^& Fix it.

[Nors]

I'd say Glover is.

So we need work on the D.

Do we go even further backwards and get rid of the 1 good DL we have?

Thanks, no.

I don't care about hurting ego on an undersized and old DT like glover.....

[blindzebra]

I'd say Glover is.

So we need work on the D.

Do we go even further backwards and get rid of the 1 good DL we have?

Thanks, no.

We made several personnel moves to add players to give us a 3-4 "look", those players have contributed ZIP. Parcells did not look for players who could thrive in our system, he looked for players who could play a little 3-4.

I'm not ignoring this as a factor in how poorly we've played on defense. Throw in Williams quote about players not buying into the system and this could be playing a part.

[Hostile]

We have the personnel to suck in a 4-3, wohhooooo and PROVEN, your point? Keep this D intact?



@#$%^& Fix it.
I want to fix it Nors. Pay attention. I promise comprehnsion is not painful.

Who am I advocating we draft?

Mike Williams, but if he's not there I want any two of the following.

Antrel Rolle
Derrick Johnson
Mathias Kiwanuka
Rod Wright
Erasmus James
Antaaj Hawthorne

Who am I advocating we acquire in Free Agency?

John Abraham
Shaun Rogers
Chris Hovan
Corey Simon

Who did you advocate so we could move to a 3-4? Oh yeah...

Jason Gildon
Chad Eaton

ROTFLMFAO

If that's superiority keep it.

So please tell me professor, how is it that I want to keep the status quo? This I am dying to hear.

Edit: In case you miss the other thread.

My #1 hope in Free Agency was Jevon Kearse.

Every move I have advocated would help this team. You can't say the same though can you? Chad Eaton? Give me a break.

[Hostile]

I don't care about hurting ego on an undersized and old DT like glover.....
Yeah but you're all over an old bum DT like Chad Eaton.

I'll take Glover over him any day, in any season.

[blindzebra]

I want to fix it Nors. Pay attention. I promise comprehnsion is not painful.

Who am I advocating we draft?

Mike Williams, but if he's not there I want any two of the following.

Antrel Rolle
Derrick Johnson
Mathias Kiwanuka
Rod Wright
Erasmus James
Antaaj Hawthorne

Who am I advocating we acquire in Free Agency?

John Abraham
Shaun Rogers
Chris Hovan
Corey Simon

Who did you advocate so we could move to a 3-4? Oh yeah...

Jason Gildon
Chad Eaton

ROTFLMFAO

If that's superiority keep it.

So please tell me professor, how is it that I want to keep the status quo? This I am dying to hear.


Hos, he's trying for a no-lose situation.

If we play ANY 3-4 and the defense plays well, he'll say it's because of the 6 plays in 3-4.

If they play bad, it's because they don't run ENOUGH 3-4.

He is recycling his arguments, again too. Quincy, Law, 3-4, poor drafts. Nors is a troll, he's NOT a Cowboys fan, it's so clear by what he posts.

[jimmy40]

I'd say Glover is.

So we need work on the D.

Do we go even further backwards and get rid of the 1 good DL we have?

Thanks, no.I'm no big believer in the 3-4 but it's laughable to think there is someone on this defense so good at their position that we should stay in a certain defense because of them.

[Hostile]

I'm no big believer in the 3-4 but it's laughable to think there is someone on this defense so good at their position that we should stay in a certain defense because of them.
LOL

I like the 3-4, and I think it is more laughable to think we get better by not utilizing the good players we do have in their natural positions.

Call me quirky.

By all means instead of NEEDING 3 solid pieces to this defense let's do everything we can to need 5.

DE, DT, and CB

vs.

CB, NT, DE, ILB, and OLB

Easy math.

[Hostile]

One other thing, let's say we get a viable NT in the draft and shift to the 3-4.

What happens if he goes down and we no longer have Glover at DT?

[KaiserSoze]

We do NOT have the personnel for a 3-4.

Not now.

But we don't have the players for a 4-3 now either.

[Hostile]

Not now.

But we don't have the players for a 4-3 now either.
Really?

Wait, I think I've covered that in this very thread.

Who am I advocating we draft?

Mike Williams, but if he's not there I want any two of the following.

Antrel Rolle
Derrick Johnson
Mathias Kiwanuka
Rod Wright
Erasmus James
Antaaj Hawthorne

Who am I advocating we acquire in Free Agency?

John Abraham
Shaun Rogers
Chris Hovan
Corey Simon

[KaiserSoze]

Really?

Wait, I think I've covered that in this very thread.

Don't get so defensive.

I simply stated to your denial that we don't have the personnel to run the 3-4 that we don't have it for the 4-3.

We have one end and one tackle.

We have NO depth at tcakle and you need that in a 4-3.

We have bodies at LB. Noboby knows how good Shanle, James and Thornton could fit.

[Hostile]

Don't get so defensive.

I simply stated to your denial that we don't have the personnel to run the 3-4 that we don't have it for the 4-3.

We have one end and one tackle.

We have NO depth at tcakle and you need that in a 4-3.

We have bodies at LB. Noboby knows how good Shanle, James and Thornton could fit.
LOL

Defensive?

Okay.

Shanle, James, & Thornton might get us the kind of play the Giants got from Carson, Johnson, and Banks? I won't even go into how much Taylor made that defense go or how any good 3-4 in History has had good pressure from the ROLB position.

I don't see it. Not until possibly 2006 and that only with a lot of "churning."

[jimmy40]

LOL

I like the 3-4, and I think it is more laughable to think we get better by not utilizing the good players we do have in their natural positions.

Call me quirky.

By all means instead of NEEDING 3 solid pieces to this defense let's do everything we can to need 5.

DE, DT, and CB

vs.

CB, NT, DE, ILB, and OLB

Easy math. We only need three pieces? Lol.
Easy math indeed.

[Hostile]

We only need three pieces? Lol.
Easy math indeed.
To be a viable defense, yes. I'm not talking about backups, I'm talking about starters who have special assignments in particular schemes.

In truth we would need a whole new front 3 to ever even be considered good and we are way too small at LB.

Just the facts.

[KaiserSoze]

LOL

Defensive?

Okay.

Shanle, James, & Thornton might get us the kind of play the Giants got from Carson, Johnson, and Banks? I won't even go into how much Taylor made that defense go or how any good 3-4 in History has had good pressure from the ROLB position.

I don't see it. Not until possibly 2006 and that only with a lot of "churning."

What would stop us from taking a killer OLB to play that position?

My whole point is, we are as far away from a good 4-3 as we are a good 3-4.

We need a nose, DE and two LBs to run a 3-4.

We need a 2 DT, a DE and two LBs to run a 4-3.

It just depends on how you want to go wiht it.

[STSINAZ]

YOU either trade glover for a 2nd or move him to RE...simple as that...but if BP returns next year we will go to the 3-4...

I don't care about hurting ego on an undersized and old DT like glover.....

[jimmy40]

To be a viable defense, yes. I'm not talking about backups, I'm talking about starters who have special assignments in particular schemes.

In truth we would need a whole new front 3 to ever even be considered good and we are way too small at LB.

Just the facts.We're too small at linebacker for any scheme when we play good teams and it's been that way for years.

[Kangaroo]

To be a viable defense, yes. I'm not talking about backups, I'm talking about starters who have special assignments in particular schemes.

In truth we would need a whole new front 3 to ever even be considered good and we are way too small at LB.

Just the facts.

Hos it is the same thing with these guys every time are current d line does not have one player that is even a quality backup in a 3-4

We will have to trade or cur Ellis (who we extended) Wiley (who needs to be cut now) carson glover coleman etc etc every one of them has to go then we have to go out and get 6 guys that way 320 + to man the line in the 3-4 your linemen need to be big becuase there main job is to occupy and engage so the LB can blitz and make tackles (basicly you need 6 guys that play like nose tackles)

If we do not have the big guys and you try to get cute with smaller guys you end up like okland a really bad 3-4 defense because you gut sapp trying to play de in a 3-4

On the LB core we can use Thorton as a rushing lb; Dat played an inside one in college so maybe we keep him then bradie if he can learn what a gap means. and you need to carry 8-9 lbs on the roster

Then we have to trade or cut coackley AL and a few others and add 6 more lb.

Plus we have to sign all are draft picks so where is all the money going to come from when you just wasted 50% of it getting rid of the guys that do not fit the role yet you have to sign 14 new guys including guys that are top tier to replace everything you just lost

Ok so where is all the cash going to come from to overhaul the defense. If we where going to switch to a 3-4 we should started last year we did not .

[jimmy40]

Hos it is the same thing every time are current d line does not have one player that is even a quality backup in a 3-4

We will have to trade or cur Ellis (who we extended) Wiley (who needs to be cut now) carson glover coleman etc etc every one of them has to go then we have to go out and get 6 guys that way 320 + to man the line in the 3-4 your linemen need to be big becuase there main job is to occupy and engage so the LB can blitz and make tackles (basicly you need 6 guys that play like nose tackles)

If we do not have the big guys and you try to get cute with smaller guys you end up like okland a really bad 3-4 defense because you gut sapp trying to play de in a 3-4

On the LB core we can use Thorton as a rushing lb; Dat played an inside one in college so maybe we keep him then bradie if he can learn what a gap means. and you need to carry 8-9 lbs on the roster

Then we have to trade or cut coackley AL and a few others and add 6 more lb.

Plus we have to sign all are draft picks so where is all the money going to come from when you just wasted 50% of it getting rid of the guys that do not fit the role yet you have to sign 14 new guys including guys that are top tier to replace everything you just lost

Ok so where is all the cash going to come from to overhaul the defense. If we where going to switch to a 3-4 we should started last year we did not .No matter what happens, Coakley is gone after this year.

[KaiserSoze]

Just the facts.

What is this..."Dragnet"?

[Hostile]

Hos it is the same thing with these guys every time are current d line does not have one player that is even a quality backup in a 3-4

We will have to trade or cur Ellis (who we extended) Wiley (who needs to be cut now) carson glover coleman etc etc every one of them has to go then we have to go out and get 6 guys that way 320 + to man the line in the 3-4 your linemen need to be big becuase there main job is to occupy and engage so the LB can blitz and make tackles (basicly you need 6 guys that play like nose tackles)

If we do not have the big guys and you try to get cute with smaller guys you end up like okland a really bad 3-4 defense because you gut sapp trying to play de in a 3-4

On the LB core we can use Thorton as a rushing lb; Dat played an inside one in college so maybe we keep him then bradie if he can learn what a gap means. and you need to carry 8-9 lbs on the roster

Then we have to trade or cut coackley AL and a few others and add 6 more lb.

Plus we have to sign all are draft picks so where is all the money going to come from when you just wasted 50% of it getting rid of the guys that do not fit the role yet you have to sign 14 new guys including guys that are top tier to replace everything you just lost

Ok so where is all the cash going to come from to overhaul the defense. If we where going to switch to a 3-4 we should started last year we did not .
Best post in the thread by a landslide.

[Hostile]

What is this..."Dragnet"?
Did you want me to call someone ma'am?

[jimmy40]

Did you want me to call someone ma'am?How about a real general manager.

[Hostile]

How about a real general manager.
Only if it is on the phone. The Crypt Keeper scares me.

[Nors]

YOU either trade glover for a 2nd or move him to RE...simple as that...but if BP returns next year we will go to the 3-4...

Is a football player, he would still be a terror as DE in a 3-4.

We are dead in the water at 4-3. Great points on it being just as easy to retool to a 3-4 as it will be to fix 4-3.

I only ever asked to have both options........... BP do it

[Nors]

We're too small at linebacker for any scheme when we play good teams and it's been that way for years.

We need biggger LB's. LB's that can make impact plays. Coak had a great run and Singleton will be at the curb in offseason.

[Nors]

Hos it is the same thing with these guys every time are current d line does not have one player that is even a quality backup in a 3-4

We will have to trade or cur Ellis (who we extended) Wiley (who needs to be cut now) carson glover coleman etc etc every one of them has to go then we have to go out and get 6 guys that way 320 + to man the line in the 3-4 your linemen need to be big becuase there main job is to occupy and engage so the LB can blitz and make tackles (basicly you need 6 guys that play like nose tackles)

If we do not have the big guys and you try to get cute with smaller guys you end up like okland a really bad 3-4 defense because you gut sapp trying to play de in a 3-4

On the LB core we can use Thorton as a rushing lb; Dat played an inside one in college so maybe we keep him then bradie if he can learn what a gap means. and you need to carry 8-9 lbs on the roster

Then we have to trade or cut coackley AL and a few others and add 6 more lb.

Plus we have to sign all are draft picks so where is all the money going to come from when you just wasted 50% of it getting rid of the guys that do not fit the role yet you have to sign 14 new guys including guys that are top tier to replace everything you just lost

Ok so where is all the cash going to come from to overhaul the defense. If we where going to switch to a 3-4 we should started last year we did not .

I could throw 10 4-3 defenses at you worse. Chiefs?

See Steelers, Pats, Ravens AND JETS/GIANTS AS TEAMS THAT ARE HYBRID.


And for the record Ellis is a great 3-4 DE. He's a DE and has played DT in his career!

[dbair1967]

It seems to me that you guys should be watching Kalen Thornton over the rest of the year.
Let's say he comes on, gets a few sacks and has his best days as the seson comes to a close?
Does Parcells grab the LB Derrick Johnson from Texas, a big DT in FA, run a 3-4 and....fire Zimmer?

I'm not as excited as some over Kalen Thornton...so far he looks like a on trick pony to me, and just another in a long line of players that Parcells has fell in love with at some time or another that ends up doing nothing on the field ...

he looks like he could be a 3-4 OLB, but I'm not sure he can play in space...he wouldnt always be rushing the passer...

ultimately I dont care what scheme they run, just as long as they get mor aggressive and add a few pieces

as for " fire Zimmer", he's the biggest problem with the team and needs to go...he's been a mediocre to poor coach since day one, and he's also the reason our DB's year in and year out dont make many plays, because it is Zimmer who coaches them too...

David

[Chocolate Lab]

I'm not as excited as some over Kalen Thornton...so far he looks like a on trick pony to me, and just another in a long line of players that Parcells has fell in love with at some time or another that ends up doing nothing on the field ...

Totally agree... It says a lot about our pass rush that we have to get excited about an undrafted spot player. :(

[dbair1967]

Is a football player, he would still be a terror as DE in a 3-4.

We are dead in the water at 4-3. Great points on it being just as easy to retool to a 3-4 as it will be to fix 4-3.

I only ever asked to have both options........... BP do it

Glover cannot play DE in any scheme...he is not quick enough to beat the good tackles in this league around the corner...he might have been able to do it 4 or 5 years ago, but he cant now. He cant even beat the slow footed guards consistently anymore...if we switch to a 3-4 Glover will either become a backup who plays in change up 4 man front schemes or will be a cap casualty...he probably has some trade value, but not premium pick value that some seem to think because of his age and because if we are switching schemes team know we arnt interested in keeping him anyway

David

[Nors]

Glover cannot play DE in any scheme...he is not quick enough to beat the good tackles in this league around the corner...he might have been able to do it 4 or 5 years ago, but he cant now. He cant even beat the slow footed guards consistently anymore...if we switch to a 3-4 Glover will either become a backup who plays in change up 4 man front schemes or will be a cap casualty...he probably has some trade value, but not premium pick value that some seem to think because of his age and because if we are switching schemes team know we arnt interested in keeping him anyway

David

He'd not be asked to go around a tackle. He'd be playing the inside gap. He'd do great there.

[t-rock]

I'm not as excited as some over Kalen Thornton...so far he looks like a on trick pony to me, and just another in a long line of players that Parcells has fell in love with at some time or another that ends up doing nothing on the field ...

he looks like he could be a 3-4 OLB, but I'm not sure he can play in space...he wouldnt always be rushing the passer...

ultimately I dont care what scheme they run, just as long as they get mor aggressive and add a few pieces

as for " fire Zimmer", he's the biggest problem with the team and needs to go...he's been a mediocre to poor coach since day one, and he's also the reason our DB's year in and year out dont make many plays, because it is Zimmer who coaches them too...

David

I agree. A month or so ago I heard Parcells say that he was teaching the CB's that if you don't see the ball, look at the receiver. If he puts his hands up, the ball is almost there. As it gets there, aim for the receiver's arms and knock the ball out.
Can this be a concept Zimmer has never taught? He's supposed to be a DB coach!

[Rack Bauer]

Let's say he comes on, gets a few sacks and has his best days as the seson comes to a close?


And let's say I win the lottery on Wednesday, the dream of world peace is finally realized, world hunger is ended, and 15 playboy models come knocking at my door wanting pictures of ME naked.

Yeah... it could happen.

[Kangaroo]

I'm not as excited as some over Kalen Thornton...so far he looks like a on trick pony to me, and just another in a long line of players that Parcells has fell in love with at some time or another that ends up doing nothing on the field ...
David

Dave at this point Thorton is a speed pass rush specialist which Greenbay and other teams have used to really help there defense. Thorton has had more QB pressures than Wiley and has forced more bad throws than Wiley. So right now he is what he is a guy that is a defense specialist that may develop into more or always be a specialist.

That does not mean he can not be a vauled added player with a role. A role that can help you win games. A piece of the puzzle so right now yea keep putting him on the field in 3rd and long :)

[es22]

Fire Zimmer? Yes
3-4? No

No 3-4. We are too small to run that defence, and we do need additional, big quality dl.

Keep the 4-3, but get guys coming off the edge to create pressure.

[Nors]

No 3-4. We are too small to run that defence, and we do need additional, big quality dl.

Keep the 4-3, but get guys coming off the edge to create pressure.

We redshirted the 2004 draft


Milk Jones
Petermen Principle
Mr Rogers


Charge 2005!

[junk]

I want to fix it Nors. Pay attention. I promise comprehnsion is not painful.

Who am I advocating we draft?

Mike Williams, but if he's not there I want any two of the following.

Antrel Rolle
Derrick Johnson
Mathias Kiwanuka
Rod Wright
Erasmus James
Antaaj Hawthorne

Who am I advocating we acquire in Free Agency?

John Abraham
Shaun Rogers
Chris Hovan
Corey Simon

Who did you advocate so we could move to a 3-4? Oh yeah...

Jason Gildon
Chad Eaton

ROTFLMFAO

If that's superiority keep it.

So please tell me professor, how is it that I want to keep the status quo? This I am dying to hear.

Edit: In case you miss the other thread.

My #1 hope in Free Agency was Jevon Kearse.

Every move I have advocated would help this team. You can't say the same though can you? Chad Eaton? Give me a break.

Chris Hovan? No thanks. The lousy Vikes D was trying to ditch that overrated bum.

[Hostile]

Chris Hovan? No thanks. The lousy Vikes D was trying to ditch that overrated bum.
He's way down my list of DTs, but I like him better than Eaton and Carson.