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Maikeru-sama
10-08-2008, 05:17 PM
By James R. Hagerty and Ruth Simon

updated 19 minutes ago
The relentless slide in home prices has left nearly one in six U.S. homeowners owing more on a mortgage than the home is worth, raising the possibility of a rise in defaults — the very misfortune that touched off the credit crisis last year.

The result of homeowners being "underwater" is more pressure on an economy that is already in a downturn. No longer having equity in their homes makes people feel less rich and thus less inclined to shop at the mall.

And having more homeowners underwater is likely to mean more eventual foreclosures, because it is hard for borrowers in financial trouble to refinance or sell their homes and pay off their mortgage if their debt exceeds the home's value. A foreclosed home, in turn, tends to lower the value of other homes in its neighborhood.

About 75.5 million U.S. households own the homes they live in. After a housing slump that has pushed values down 30 percent in some areas, roughly 12 million households, or 16 percent, owe more than their homes are worth, according to Moody's Economy.com.

The comparable figures were roughly 4 percent underwater in 2006 and 6 percent last year, says the firm's chief economist, Mark Zandi, who adds that "it is very possible that there will ultimately be more homeowners underwater in this period than any time in our history."

Among people who bought within the past five years, it's worse: 29 percent are underwater on their mortgages, according to an estimate by real-estate Web site Zillow.com.

Bailout may help homeowners a little
The majority of homeowners still have equity, and even among those who don't, many continue to make their mortgage payments on time. The financial-bailout legislation could at least "keep things from getting much worse" by helping banks avoid the need to tighten credit further, says Celia Chen, director of housing economics at Economy.com. Still, she expects housing credit to remain tight and home prices to decline in much of the country for another year or so.

Prices are back to 2003 levels in the San Diego and Boston metropolitan areas, and back to 2004 levels in Las Vegas, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Fort Lauderdale, Fla., and Minneapolis, according to First American CoreLogic, a data firm in Santa Ana, Calif.

A sign is posted in front of a bank owned home that is for sale in Richmond, California.

Stephanie and Jason Kirschenman thought they were being prudent when they agreed in late 2004 to buy a new four-bedroom home in Lodi, Calif., for $458,000. They put a substantial 20 percent down and chose a loan with a fixed interest rate for the first 10 years. Two years later, they took out a second mortgage to pay off some bills.

At the time, the home was appraised for about $550,000. But a mortgage broker recently estimated its value at well below the $380,000 the family owes on it, says Ms. Kirschenman. "We were quite shocked," she says.

The Kirschenmans, who both work for a company that makes trailer hitches, thought about sending the keys to the lender. But their financial planner, Christopher Olsen, helped persuade them to stick with the house, noting that they could still afford the payments.

Others aren't so lucky. Among mortgages on one- to four-family homes, 9.16 percent were a month or more overdue or were in foreclosure in the second quarter, according to the Mortgage Bankers Association. That compared with 6.52 percent a year before and was the highest level since the association began such surveys 39 years ago.

Falling values have contributed to a sharp pullback in mortgage lending. In the third quarter, mortgage lending fell to the lowest level in eight years — down 44 percent in a year — says the publication Inside Mortgage Finance.

One reason is that as home values slip, growing numbers of would-be borrowers lack sufficient equity to refinance. The falling values also make mortgage lending look riskier to banks, spurring them to tighten credit standards.

Most mortgages in default were issued in 2006 and 2007, when lending standards were loosest and the housing market was peaking. Many who bought then made small down payments or none, so they had little equity in their homes from the start.

The performance of loans made earlier is getting worse, too, as price declines deplete the equity people built up. In Las Vegas, 6 percent of home loans made in 2004 are now 30 days or more overdue, up from 3.7 percent a year earlier, according to research firm LPS Applied Analytics.

In July, Congress enacted legislation designed to help borrowers who owe more than their homes are worth by allowing them to refinance into a government-backed loan, provided their mortgage company forgives part of their principal. It's not clear how many borrowers the program will help, because before reducing the principal, lenders would almost always try first to freeze or reduce borrowers' interest rate to make payments more affordable, says Tom Deutsch, deputy executive director of the American Securitization Forum, an industry group.

In contrast with the 12 million home borrowers estimated to be underwater, 64 million have equity in their homes. These include 24 million households who own their homes free and clear, and 40 million whose homes remain worth more than is owed on them.

Even so, some borrowers fret that declining prices and tighter lending standards could make it hard for them to tap their equity.

Steven Schneider, a mortgage broker in Miami, bought his home at the end of 1992. When he refinanced about four years ago, he pulled out $150,000 in cash that he intended to use to build an addition. The transaction raised his total debt to about $350,000, at a time when his home had a value of about $650,000.

Recently, Mr. Schneider pulled out roughly $90,000 by tapping a home-equity line of credit. He says he put the funds in a money-market account that yields less than the 5 percent interest rate on the loan. "I was afraid they were going to shut down" access to the credit line, says Mr. Schneider. He figures his home, once valued at $750,000, now is worth about $600,000.

Pain varies from place to place
How much pain homeowners feel varies greatly from place to place. The most severe drops in home values are in parts of California, Florida, Nevada, Arizona and other areas where speculation pushed prices up and builders far overestimated demand.

Within metro areas, neighborhoods with short commutes are holding up better than others. And in many parts of Texas and North Carolina, home prices have continued to rise slowly, have leveled off or have declined only modestly.

On a national basis, home prices peaked in mid-2006 after rising 86 percent since January 2000, according to the First American index. Since peaking, that index has fallen 13 percent.

The declines have made homes more affordable, bringing prices in many areas closer to their long-term relationship to incomes. In the second quarter, the median home price of about $203,000 was 1.9 times average pretax household income, according to Economy.com. That was close to 1.87 times income for 1985 through 2000, prior to the housing boom.

Housing markets don't tend to turn around quickly. The price slump in California in the early 1990s, for instance, was a long grind. According to the S&P/Case-Shiller home-price indexes, Los Angeles prices peaked in June 1990 and didn't bottom until March 1996. They didn't get back to their 1990 peak until 2000.

link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27089919/)

Maikeru-sama
10-08-2008, 05:20 PM
Im actually thinking about buying out my aparment lease and buying a new home since my new job is far away.

I wonder what type of credit score you need to get a loan nowadays and what the average mortgage payment a month is?

trickblue
10-08-2008, 05:24 PM
It's bad enough to be upside down on your car, but upside down on your house is even worse...

ninja
10-08-2008, 06:07 PM
Im actually thinking about buying out my aparment lease and buying a new home since my new job is far away.

I wonder what type of credit score you need to get a loan nowadays and what the average mortgage payment a month is?

From what I heard, you will need 20% for a downpayment and good credit. If you got that, no problem.

And if you don't have that, you really shouldn't be buying a house.

And if your job might have some instability in the near future, you might want to hold off. I think layoffs will increase.

jrumann59
10-08-2008, 06:10 PM
I have heard you need credit scores in 690-730 range. Considering before all this mess started one needed a 650-ish and 20% down

ninja
10-08-2008, 06:13 PM
It's bad enough to be upside down on your car, but upside down on your house is even worse...

The value of a house goes up(usually) and down(sometimes). The value of a car always goes down. Right now, it is only a paper loss. As long as you don't have to sell, just ride it out. As long as you don't have an ARM, your payment won't change. Too many people are jumping the gun.

Maikeru-sama
10-08-2008, 06:32 PM
From what I heard, you will need 20% for a downpayment and good credit. If you got that, no problem.

And if you don't have that, you really shouldn't be buying a house.

And if your job might have some instability in the near future, you might want to hold off. I think layoffs will increase.


Yeah, my credit scores range from 751 to 781, depending on which of the 3 Credit Reporting Agencies you look at.

The main factor I am looking at is how much my montly payments would increase when moving from an apartment in Irving, Texas (Las Colinas) to a house.

I am starting a new job (the last job I worked at for 5 years) but I was told as long as it is in the same industry (IT), I shouldn't have to worry about work history.

I am a little scared to take on a mortgage and try to get my Master's.

VietCowboy
10-08-2008, 06:40 PM
Yeah, my credit scores range from 751 to 781, depending on which of the 3 Credit Reporting Agencies you look at.

The main factor I am looking at is how much my montly payments would increase when moving from an apartment in Irving, Texas (Las Colinas) to a house.

I am starting a new job (the last job I worked at for 5 years) but I was told as long as it is in the same industry (IT), I shouldn't have to worry about work history.

I am a little scared to take on a mortgage and try to get my Master's.

They usually take your middle score, so those are really good scores, depending on how long you've had credit. Feel free to use mortgage calculators to find out how much you can afford as well as how much you can afford if you only wan to pay a certain monthly mortgage.

They will probably ask for your tax returns for last year, and get a letter from your current (future) employer about start date, salary, etc.

You should pick a realtor you like, and they can definitely be very helpful in this stuff. I would not recommend buying from a FSBO (For sale by owner) as your first house.

good luck!

Maikeru-sama
10-08-2008, 06:45 PM
They usually take your middle score, so those are really good scores, depending on how long you've had credit. Feel free to use mortgage calculators to find out how much you can afford as well as how much you can afford if you only wan to pay a certain monthly mortgage.

They will probably ask for your tax returns for last year, and get a letter from your current (future) employer about start date, salary, etc.

You should pick a realtor you like, and they can definitely be very helpful in this stuff. I would not recommend buying from a FSBO (For sale by owner) as your first house.

good luck!

Good information, thanks.

Weird, I worked for a Mortgage company for 5 years, but I was a software developer, so I really didn't have to learn all the ends and outs of the actual business :eek: .

One of my co-workers use to complain about Sales Taxes (he lives in Arlington, TX), which I have heard can sneak up on you if you are not careful.

trickblue
10-08-2008, 07:59 PM
The value of a house goes up(usually) and down(sometimes). The value of a car always goes down. Right now, it is only a paper loss. As long as you don't have to sell, just ride it out. As long as you don't have an ARM, your payment won't change. Too many people are jumping the gun.

Of course, you are right in that respect... I wasn't trying to mislead anyone...

I meant it in the short-term sense... and we have become a short-term society. Properties (usually) do go up as opposed to vehicles going down, but if you need a loan and are upside down on your house, you could be in trouble...

God help those Americans that have ARM's.. I would NEVER do an ARM... no matter how attractive it looks...

theogt
10-08-2008, 08:33 PM
You can still do 5% down. And you don't need a 690, though your rate will be worse the further you get from there.

Rowdy
10-08-2008, 08:37 PM
You can have the best credit score in the world and not get a home loan with a decent rate if you have a high debt-to-income ratio.

Rowdy
10-08-2008, 08:38 PM
Ill also add that obviously you cant have the top score if you have a high DTI, but some people found out later on that a score above 680-720 doesn't mean the best rate.

VietCowboy
10-08-2008, 08:40 PM
You can have the best credit score in the world and not get a home loan with a decent rate if you have a high debt-to-income ratio.

yep, true, so pay off your credit cards, try to pay off any loans as well, and live modestly.

Kangaroo
10-08-2008, 09:48 PM
From what I heard, you will need 20% for a downpayment and good credit. If you got that, no problem.

And if you don't have that, you really shouldn't be buying a house.

And if your job might have some instability in the near future, you might want to hold off. I think layoffs will increase.

Unless you are a Veteran and qualify for a VA loan cough cough like me then when I bought my house seller payed 6% of all closing cost and I put a whopping 500 dollars initially and got $250 back when i closed but that was oh 9 years ago

WoodysGirl
10-08-2008, 10:31 PM
When I got my home, I got a conventional loan. I put down 5% and the seller paid $3k of the closing costs. Wasn't much sexy about the deal, but I didn't feel like I was signing a bad deal.

Paid fair market value for the area and got almost instant equity due to the number of subdivisions that were built soon after. Since I've lived here, there have been at least six new subdivisions built and I think there's a new one going up now.

Nors
10-08-2008, 10:47 PM
I saw this coming - I built a house in 1998/99 at X $

5 years later houses in my development were selling at 3X. Those are the people in trouble. Little down payment ARMS, and slight blip they are underwater paying for a house they NEVER could afford.

CowboyFan74
10-08-2008, 10:50 PM
Hold on for 10 years and deduct the depreciation on your taxes, it will bounce back:laugh2:

burmafrd
10-08-2008, 11:00 PM
Never should have allowed ARM's. That was a bad idea from day one.

Nors
10-08-2008, 11:05 PM
I remembered the late 70's inflation and near 20% interest rates. Always loved to lock in - did at 6.5% and refinanced at 6%. ARM's always what they tried to sell you tho - all about the "lower monthly payments"....

trickblue
10-08-2008, 11:34 PM
When I got my home, I got a conventional loan. I put down 5% and the seller paid $3k of the closing costs. Wasn't much sexy about the deal, but I didn't feel like I was signing a bad deal.

Paid fair market value for the area and got almost instant equity due to the number of subdivisions that were built soon after. Since I've lived here, there have been at least six new subdivisions built and I think there's a new one going up now.

I would have floated you a 2.5% loan just to see you nekkid... 3.5% for VERY compromising positions...

So who is your favorite lender NOW! :D

Maikeru-sama
10-08-2008, 11:43 PM
Yeah, the only debt I have is a Student Loan, no credit cards debts, no car payment (paid it off in less than 2 years).

Once I am a month or two into my new job, I am going to really be looking into this.

On the news, I hear some people saying its time to buy, but others say it is difficult and be ready to be scrutinized like your running for president of the united states.