U.S. Military - National Security Spending

[VCDefectors]

It's too bad that this has not been made more of an issue this this year's election. No one seems to question the billions upon billions that are allocated annually to the world's largest bureaucracy.

It seems to me that a lot of the money never leaves Washington D.C. and I've yet to meet a foot soldier that got rich from serving his/her country. So where exactly does the money go? Contractors? Fatcat bureaucrats in D.C.?

Count me in the camp of those who feel that the Bush Administration masterfully orchestrated a campaign of "Love It Or Leave It" during the aftermath of 9/11 and the Iraq War in order to distract the American public from the issue of government spending on the military and national security.

It's time to start trimming the fat from the bureaucractic waste that is surely going on. But it has become the federal government's best kept secret, as no one ever talks about it. More Americans should be outraged or at least questioning this issue.

[burmafrd]

No doubt there is a lot of fat in the Pentagon and I have seen it. However frankly you seem somewhat unable to spot the fat in Social Security, Medicare, etc. And we spend a LOT more on those programs then on the DOD. Maybe you ought to do a little fact finding.

[VCDefectors]

No doubt there is a lot of fat in the Pentagon and I have seen it. However frankly you seem somewhat unable to spot the fat in Social Security, Medicare, etc. And we spend a LOT more on those programs then on the DOD. Maybe you ought to do a little fact finding.

The issue is fact-finding. The military-security complex isn't really that transparent. Understandable to a certain degree, but why does this particular sector get a free pass from scrutiny while other agencies get criticized for bureaucracy?

I'm not naive about bureaucracy with SS or Medicare, that just wasn't the focus of this thread. There is plenty of press and discussion about the waste that goes on with health care waste and bureaucracy.

[sacase]

I work in the Intelligence Community. Our budgets are secrect becuase they could give our adversaries ideas into what we are doing and how we are doing it. Manppower in the IC is not cheap. Some of our senior level contractors who have perfessional expertise that is extreamly limited are getting paid in the 150k+ range. In fact there are far more jobs in the IC than there are people qualified to hold them. Because of that, it takes a lot of money to attract the top quality people...hell you even have to pay a premium for the mediocore and incompetent.

What we do, is often on the cutting edge and is not cheap.

[Hostile]

The issue is fact-finding. The military-security complex isn't really that transparent. Understandable to a certain degree, but why does this particular sector get a free pass from scrutiny while other agencies get criticized for bureaucracy?

I'm not naive about bureaucracy with SS or Medicare, that just wasn't the focus of this thread. There is plenty of press and discussion about the waste that goes on with health care waste and bureaucracy.They don't. Almost every year they look at Military bases and whether or not they should be closed. Take a ride with me to Williams AFB here in Arizona.

Every other year it seems Davis Monthan AFB is under review for possible closure. They tell me it never will be because of the close proximity of Hughes Missile systems and the airplane graveyard, but the fact of the matter is military bases are constant targets of budget cuts and if they do not pass muster, they get closed down.

[VCDefectors]

They don't. Almost every year they look at Military bases and whether or not they should be closed. Take a ride with me to Williams AFB here in Arizona.

Every other year it seems Davis Monthan AFB is under review for possible closure. They tell me it never will be because of the close proximity of Hughes Missile systems and the airplane graveyard, but the fact of the matter is military bases are constant targets of budget cuts and if they do not pass muster, they get closed down.

Good stuff. Of course, decisions on military bases aren't always necessarily based on trimming the fat. Other reasons come into factor as well (upgrading, changes in military needs). But your point is valid, even as it doesn't fully address the issue of transparency.

That is to say, to a large degree, we are forced to trust/accept that miltary and national security expenditures are where they need to be. But more importantly, there seems to be a climate in this country that it is somehow unpatriotic to ask (what I consider to be) fair questions about the process.

[Hostile]

Good stuff. Of course, decisions on military bases aren't always necessarily based on trimming the fat. Other reasons come into factor as well (upgrading, changes in military needs). But your point is valid, even as it doesn't fully address the issue of transparency.

That is to say, to a large degree, we are forced to trust/accept that miltary and national security expenditures are where they need to be. But more importantly, there seems to be a climate in this country that it is somehow unpatriotic to ask (what I consider to be) fair questions about the process.That is very true. However it is also true that they face constant pressure of closure and once closed those bases do not get used by civilians for years and for the most part become useless.

I don't consider questions of military spending to be out of bounds at all. I do however cringe at the questioning of military motives by civilians, in particular the media. To me that is simply galling.

[VCDefectors]

I work in the Intelligence Community. Our budgets are secrect becuase they could give our adversaries ideas into what we are doing and how we are doing it. Manppower in the IC is not cheap. Some of our senior level contractors who have perfessional expertise that is extreamly limited are getting paid in the 150k+ range. In fact there are far more jobs in the IC than there are people qualified to hold them. Because of that, it takes a lot of money to attract the top quality people...hell you even have to pay a premium for the mediocore and incompetent.

What we do, is often on the cutting edge and is not cheap.

I'm sure supply and demand does play a role, but again because of transparency issues, how are citizens (who would want to know) supposed to determine to what degree of what you are suggesting is true?

Now I understand that what I'm asking might seem ridiculous to some, because if you think about it in terms of goods and services, the demand for military and security does indeed exist, yet since it is a public good/service, everyone gets the "same amount" of these services, whether they want them or not. The laws of economics only apply to a certain degree.

I just think its a shame that most Americans think/feel that whatever the amount of miltary/security services the government tells us we need is so readily accepted and rarely questioned.

[VCDefectors]

I don't consider questions of military spending to be out of bounds at all. I do however cringe at the questioning of military motives by civilians, in particular the media. To me that is simply galling.

Why is that? (As I recall the infamous Jack Nicholson lines in A Few Good Men)

To me, it's not really that different than taking your car to a mechanic. Because he/she has the expertise, the consumer has to trust to some degree that they are getting the right service at a fair price. The major difference, of course, is that there is competition and that acts as a deterance towards fraud and overcharging. No such mechanism in place for miltary and security services.

As to your 'civilians' comment, military people have to remember that they are serving the country (i.e. - employed by the people) and the people have a right to know they are getting a fair deal, just as a consumer has a right to know if he/she is getting screwed over by a mechanic. That has nothing to do with feeling proud/grateful towards the men and women who serve.

[MetalHead]

Leave the military alone...better yet,pay them more.

A question about budget:
I keep hearing that social security will run out of money.
But I never hear about welfare running out of cash.

[VCDefectors]

Leave the military alone...better yet,pay them more.

A question about budget:
I keep hearing that social security will run out of money.
But I never hear about welfare running out of cash.

Leave the military alone? Are you being serious? Don't the citizens of this country have a moral obligation to at least be asking questions about the spending of its own taxpayer money? Sure they are questions that aren't going to be necessarily popular, yet they are questions that need to be asked.

[MetalHead]

Leave the military alone? Are you being serious? Don't the citizens of this country have a moral obligation to at least be asking questions about the spending of its own taxpayer money? Sure they are questions that aren't going to be necessarily popular, yet they are questions that need to be asked.

Leave the Armed Forces alone.
Is that better?

[Heisenberg]

Social security still has more going into it than is being paid out. So, you can complain about social security, but it's not a drain on our government spending or part of our deficit spending. Plus, it has its own direct funds.

However, it's borrowed from constantly.

Government needs a complete overhaul for efficiency sake. We're never going to eliminate government spending so we might as well try to make it as efficient as possible.

[Heisenberg]

Oh, in case you're curious where the money is going:

http://www.federalbudget.com/

[VCDefectors]

Social security still has more going into it than is being paid out. So, you can complain about social security, but it's not a drain on our government spending or part of our deficit spending. Plus, it has its own direct funds.

However, it's borrowed from constantly.

Government needs a complete overhaul for efficiency sake. We're never going to eliminate government spending so we might as well try to make it as efficient as possible.

Easier said than done, but it's a responsibility bestowed upon each and every citizen, that is to ensure the government functions close to efficiency as possible. First, there has to be oversight and transparency, which is far from an easy task. Second, with the tendency of our country's government business towards becoming more federally centralized makes it even more difficult for such oversight and transparency.

[burmafrd]

The outflow will exceed the inflow on SS in less then 30 years. Something needs to be done NOW there but neither side has the guts to admit that what NEEDS to be done is cut down on the side benefits that were NEVER meant to be part of SS. Education and other areas were NEVER supposed to be part of it. Then cut off any payout to anyone with a net worth of over 1 million at time of retirement. Sounds draconian but we are steadily getting closer to that area.

As regards the DOD, you libs can look right into your own backyard for all the pork pushed for by Harry Pelosi and others hidden in the Defense budget. BRAC was supposed to be non political- what a joke!!
There is plenty of blame to be spread around for fat in the government.

[VCDefectors]

As regards the DOD, you libs can look right into your own backyard for all the pork pushed for by Harry Pelosi and others hidden in the Defense budget. BRAC was supposed to be non political- what a joke!!
There is plenty of blame to be spread around for fat in the government.

Good stuff, but what does lib vs. con have to do with it? This is issue that affects all taxpayers.

[Hostile]

Why is that? (As I recall the infamous Jack Nicholson lines in A Few Good Men)

To me, it's not really that different than taking your car to a mechanic. Because he/she has the expertise, the consumer has to trust to some degree that they are getting the right service at a fair price. The major difference, of course, is that there is competition and that acts as a deterance towards fraud and overcharging. No such mechanism in place for miltary and security services.

As to your 'civilians' comment, military people have to remember that they are serving the country (i.e. - employed by the people) and the people have a right to know they are getting a fair deal, just as a consumer has a right to know if he/she is getting screwed over by a mechanic. That has nothing to do with feeling proud/grateful towards the men and women who serve.I think the media and many civilians are way too critical of the military. I hate people who protest against our military. I literally can't stand them. They claim to be anti-war and that is a bold faced lie. They do not protest any war except the ones our military are engage in.

Where were the protests over Russia invading Georgia? Nowhere. Yet we have daily updates of every bomb going off that tries to kill our military as if that is proof they shouldn't be there. I have family in Iraq and they tell me about the schools and hospitals that are open now. Or the kids who greet the soldiers in the streets and play soccer with them. Where are those reports?

They say bring our soldiers home and when they come home they call them baby killers and other horrible things.

It galls me.

[VCDefectors]

I think the media and many civilians are way too critical of the military. I hate people who protest against our military. I literally can't stand them. They claim to be anti-war and that is a bold faced lie. They do not protest any war except the ones our military are engage in.

Where were the protests over Russia invading Georgia? Nowhere. Yet we have daily updates of every bomb going off that tries to kill our military as if that is proof they shouldn't be there. I have family in Iraq and they tell me about the schools and hospitals that are open now. Or the kids who greet the soldiers in the streets and play soccer with them. Where are those reports?

They say bring our soldiers home and when they come home they call them baby killers and other horrible things.

It galls me.

I think we can all agree that there is a difference between the services provided by the men and women who serve this country and the policies behind them. And I do agree that there are many radicals in this country that fail to make that distinction and that is not fair or right.

Having said that, what you describe is an inherent problem of public goods and services. That is, if the people elect to collectively enact a good or service, everyone receives it whether they want it or not. So, that means that the soldier that risks his/her own life to serve the country, while choosing to do this for their own personal reasons, fights for the rights and freedoms of every American, no matter what their political beliefs are.

In effect, the very thing that galls you is one of the very core strengths of democracy and freedom.

[sacase]

I'm sure supply and demand does play a role, but again because of transparency issues, how are citizens (who would want to know) supposed to determine to what degree of what you are suggesting is true?

Now I understand that what I'm asking might seem ridiculous to some, because if you think about it in terms of goods and services, the demand for military and security does indeed exist, yet since it is a public good/service, everyone gets the "same amount" of these services, whether they want them or not. The laws of economics only apply to a certain degree.

I just think its a shame that most Americans think/feel that whatever the amount of miltary/security services the government tells us we need is so readily accepted and rarely questioned.'

Well I can answer some of this for you. Part of the miltiary budget is not classified. You can readily look that up. Infact, most of the military budget is not classified.

However, once you get into the classified programs then there is no way to tell what it is being spent on and that is the correct answer. If we did tell the American public what it was being spent on, then we would tell our advasaries what it was being spent on, which would them comprimise national security and all that money being spent would be spent for nothing.

The fact of the matter is, we are a respresentative governmnet. It is not your job to check on these government programs. It is the job of your representative and even then, it is only a select few who were able to obtain security clearences. So your job ends at the voting booth.

[VCDefectors]

'

Well I can answer some of this for you. Part of the miltiary budget is not classified. You can readily look that up. Infact, most of the military budget is not classified.

However, once you get into the classified programs then there is no way to tell what it is being spent on and that is the correct answer. If we did tell the American public what it was being spent on, then we would tell our advasaries what it was being spent on, which would them comprimise national security and all that money being spent would be spent for nothing.

The fact of the matter is, we are a respresentative governmnet. It is not your job to check on these government programs. It is the job of your representative and even then, it is only a select few who were able to obtain security clearences. So your job ends at the voting booth.

The founding fathers of this nation would disagree with you. It is our responsibility as citizens to ensure that the democratic process works as it should. It doesn't make any difference whether our democracy is a representative or direct one.

[Heisenberg]

The founding fathers of this nation would disagree with you. It is our responsibility as citizens to ensure that the democratic process works as it should. It doesn't make any difference whether our democracy is a representative or direct one.

Agreed. It is our responsiblity to make sure that our representatives are doing what they were voted in to do. The only way we can do that is to have information about what the hell is going on in Washington. We should be taking MORE of a responsiblity and not less.

Considering the resources we have at our disposal, such as the Internet, everything should be transparent except for the most top secret stuff.

[Hostile]

Agreed. It is our responsiblity to make sure that our representatives are doing what they were voted in to do. The only way we can do that is to have information about what the hell is going on in Washington. We should be taking MORE of a responsiblity and not less.

Considering the resources we have at our disposal, such as the Internet, everything should be transparent except for the most top secret stuff.That is the goal, but it is not done. Every election they bring up the same scare tactics so that they get re-elected. Meanwhile all of their campaign promises get left undone and unquestioned.

[burmafrd]

You really cannot say much of anything at all about the black operations and classified programs without giving our enemies info they cannot get otherwise. Why do you think China and Russia spend so much time and effort trying to get anything they can?
Frankly any time I hear a lib squawking about military spending while saying nothing about SS or Medicare or Welfare I just tune them out. Either you are after all waste or you have no right to say squat.

[VCDefectors]

Frankly any time I hear a lib squawking about military spending while saying nothing about SS or Medicare or Welfare I just tune them out. Either you are after all waste or you have no right to say squat.

If that was true, you wouldn't have wasted your time posting in this thread. And I have every right to question military spending. Your position about me excluding SS, Medicare, and Welfare is based on a false premise that I see nothing wrong there. Nothing could be further from the truth. But that wasn't the central issue of this thread. The central issue involved the lack of discussion about military spending in this election season.