are you better off than you were 4 years ago?

[cowboys#1]

my answer would be no. i lost 2 jobs and my 401k lost 40% (recently)

gas prices kept me from traveling and one of my friends brother was killed in iraq.

i also had a cousin who passed away because her insurance company wouldnt pay for her treatment.
we all tried to raise money but it was too late. i suffered through some flu seasons because the copay on my health insurance got higher. i do thank the government for my school grants. other than that, last 4 years have been pretty rough. :(

[Maikeru-sama]

Yep, at the new job I just started in October, I am making 27% more than I made at the job I was laid off at in July. Don't know what I was making 4 years ago, but I would say I am making at least 50% more.

I am also looking to buy or build my first home. As a matter of fact, I just spoke with a lending company to be pre-qualified for a loan. Unfortunately, even though my middle credit score is in the 750s, the best interest rate seems to be around 6.5% or so.

Now the 401K, that's another discussion.

So yes, because I kept my skills up to date, got a college degree, lived within my means, saved, worked my butt off and had a little luck, I am certainly better off.

[numnuts23]

my answer would be no. i lost 2 jobs and my 401k lost 40% (recently)

gas prices kept me from traveling and one of my friends brother was killed in iraq.

i also had a cousin who passed away because her insurance company wouldnt pay for her treatment.
we all tried to raise money but it was too late. i suffered through some flu seasons because the copay on my health insurance got higher. i do thank the government for my school grants. other than that, last 4 years have been pretty rough. :(

Are you implying that Bush is to blame?

[Maikeru-sama]

Are you implying that Bush is to blame?

He is :D .

The Bush Presidency has been a trainwreck imo, but some of the stuff he couldn't control.

[numnuts23]

Making about 25% more at the same job.
Bought my first home and the value hasn't dropped a bit, just gained.
Married longtime girlfriend
Have first child on the way
Bought first new car (08 Mazda CX-9 - can't believe I bought a Mazda, but we love it)
Wife is making about 35% more at the same job.
My dad, after working for his whole life now owns his own business - be kind Obama
Paid off all debts except home and car, working on getting car done.
401k, it's dropped - but who's hasn't at this point

[vta]

Without a doubt.
My financial situation has grown steadily.

As for health costs, my mother was diagnosed with cancer in Oct '06 and the treatment she received was outstanding up until her passing in August of '07.

My mother did not have a pension and quite frankly her finances were meager all of her life and despite this, she received great care and comfort during her illness.

My sister had a brain tumor in '03 and was taken care of by top neurological surgeons in NY. She's not rich either, just a middle class worker.

I read/see/hear all of this doom and gloom about our health care system, yet my experiences, for myself and family and extended family have been top notch.

[Maikeru-sama]

I think this ones going to backfire on you cowboys#1.

Bush always equal to good :D .

[Hostile]

Yes, I am. In 2004 my annual salary was 41k. In 2007 my annual salary was 65k. It should end up about the same this year. In 2004 my 401 k was worth about 4k. Right now it is about 16k.

[VietCowboy]

Without a doubt.
My financial situation has grown steadily.

As for health costs, my mother was diagnosed with cancer in Oct '06 and the treatment she received was outstanding up until her passing in August of '07.

My mother did not have a pension and quite frankly her finances were meager all of her life and despite this, she received great care and comfort during her illness.

My sister had a brain tumor in '03 and was taken care of by top neurological surgeons in NY. She's not rich either, just a middle class worker.

I read/see/hear all of this doom and gloom about our health care system, yet my experiences, for myself and family and extended family have been top notch.

Did she have health insurance by any chance?

I know many people who won't go to the doctors unless it is something really bad, and sometimes, the illness could have progressed so far that it is much harder to treat. Even when there's a free health clinic, you have to show up at 7am just to be seen that day. If not, they turn you away.

[Danny White]

Much better off... it's not even close.

Sure, my investments are down over the current year, but because of what I've been able to put in over the last 4 years, it's still much more than I had saved up in 2004.

I think it's funny that someone would blame Bush for all the bad that's happened to them over the past 4 years, or think that Obama will make it all better. :rolleyes:

[WoodysGirl]

Yep. 4 years ago, I hadn't been too long coming out of unemployment. So finances were still out of whack. Had just gotten a perm job vs another contract job to stabilize my situation.

Now, don't know percentages, but I'm certainly making alot more money than I ever have before. Driving a relatively new vehicle due to a car accident. Did some renovations on my house. got a 2nd degree and started on a 3rd.

I think I could do better on my savings, but I have a plan to rebuild my stack.

[Hostile]

Much better off... it's not even close.

Sure, my investments are down over the current year, but because of what I've been able to put in over the last 4 years, it's still much more than I had saved up in 2004.

I think it's funny that someone would blame Bush for all the bad that's happened to them over the past 4 years, or think that Obama will make it all better. :rolleyes:I am not joking. I am cashing in my 401k because I think he's going to win.

[vta]

I think this ones going to backfire on you cowboys#1.

Bush always equal to good :D .

I can tell you, I don't think Bush has anything to do with my financial situation and I'm not thanking him. But I wouldn't blame him if I were facing rough times either.

[Cajuncowboy]

Way better. Way, way better.

[zrinkill]

Yes ..... much much better off.

[Maikeru-sama]

I can tell you, I don't think Bush has anything to do with my financial situation and I'm not thanking him. But I wouldn't blame him if I were facing rough times either.

That was actually what Eddie Murphy would call "a little sexual inyaendo" :D

[vta]

Did she have health insurance by any chance?

I know many people who won't go to the doctors unless it is something really bad, and sometimes, the illness could have progressed so far that it is much harder to treat. Even when there's a free health clinic, you have to show up at 7am just to be seen that day. If not, they turn you away.

My sister would know more about her coverage, but she didn't have a health care plan herself, she had Medicaid. She was good about seeing the doctor, though.

Oddly enough, my mom smoked; at the same time she was diagnosed, so was my wife's 2nd cousin, a life long non-smoker, with the exact same cancer. I'm sad to say she died within 3 moths.

I can't say it was her care and she was older than my mom, because I don't know the particulars, but I can tell you, she was a millionaire.

[vta]

That was actually what Eddie Murphy would call "a little sexual inyaendo" :D

It went way over my head... :D

[bbgun]

Yes I am, and if I wasn't, I'd be inclined to blame the guy in the mirror.

[iceberg]

my answer would be no. i lost 2 jobs and my 401k lost 40% (recently)

gas prices kept me from traveling and one of my friends brother was killed in iraq.

i also had a cousin who passed away because her insurance company wouldnt pay for her treatment.
we all tried to raise money but it was too late. i suffered through some flu seasons because the copay on my health insurance got higher. i do thank the government for my school grants. other than that, last 4 years have been pretty rough. :(

bush has not cost me anywhere NEAR as much as clinton/reno and their attempt to tell microsoft how to run a business.

[Bach]

* Cowboys#1 thinking of new question*

[Hostile]

Yes I am, and if I wasn't, I'd be inclined to blame the guy in the mirror.Great post.

[WoodysGirl]

Yes I am, and if I wasn't, I'd be inclined to blame the guy in the mirror.
Yeah, if I was suffering, I'd blame you, too. :)

[iceberg]

Great post.

one trait of conservatives - self-blame.
one trait of liberals - it's someone elses fault.

not all inclusive no, but it is a trait i've noticed.

[iceberg]

Yeah, if I was suffering, I'd blame you, too. :)

but a great "tag" is a great tag. :)

[cowboys#1]

i actually dont blame bush for my troubles. i was just asking because reagan used this line and the experts say it helped him win the presidency. obama is using this same line. i was just curious if it had an affect on you. hopefully after i graduate i can be ballers like the rest of you guys.:D

[Maikeru-sama]

one trait of conservatives - self-blame.
one trait of liberals - it's someone elses fault.

not all inclusive no, but it is a trait i've noticed.

Not really.

[WoodysGirl]

but a great "tag" is a great tag. :)
He tags me alot. It's nice to get one in occasionally. :)

[Bach]

i actually dont blame bush for my troubles. i was just asking because reagan used this line and the experts say it helped him win the presidency. obama is using this same line. i was just curious if it had an affect on you. hopefully after i graduate i can be ballers like the rest of you guys.:D

Reagan used the line running against an incumbent.

McCain isn't Bush no matter how much Obama wants to say he is.

[iceberg]

Not really.

i did say not all inclusive. the closer you get to the fringe liberal, yes. i do think it becomes more common.

[VietCowboy]

i did say not all inclusive. the closer you get to the fringe liberal, yes. i do think it becomes more common.

actually, I do think we always look to blame things on other people...unless you are depressed, then everything bad is your fault, and everything good is luck.

but, I'm in agreement about the liberal blaming others, but could you explain why conservatives would be self-blame?

[iceberg]

actually, I do think we always look to blame things on other people...unless you are depressed, then everything bad is your fault, and everything good is luck.

but, I'm in agreement about the liberal blaming others, but could you explain why conservatives would be self-blame?

nature of the beast, i suppose. most want to rise and fall on their own terms and accept that *crap happens* in life and shouldn't be handicapped at every turn. you deal with it, get stronger, and rely on yourself to make the world around you better.

liberals like to rely on the gov to do it, in my opinion/experience.

not real sure, but good question i never thought much about.

[Cajuncowboy]

actually, I do think we always look to blame things on other people...unless you are depressed, then everything bad is your fault, and everything good is luck.

but, I'm in agreement about the liberal blaming others, but could you explain why conservatives would be self-blame?

I know it wasn't directed at me but...

It's called personal responsibility....

Just taking a wild guess.

[bbgun]

but a great "tag" is a great tag. :)

Still waiting for her to ask me to the Sadie Hawkins dance.

[Hostile]

actually, I do think we always look to blame things on other people...unless you are depressed, then everything bad is your fault, and everything good is luck.

but, I'm in agreement about the liberal blaming others, but could you explain why conservatives would be self-blame?I want to answer this using a friend. She is most decidedly a Conservative. Proud of it too. Has 2 teenage kids. Single Mom. Husband passed away very young. Lost her job and absolutely refused to apply for food stamps or any other assistance. They ate a lot of beans and a lot of peanut butter and jelly until she got another job and she was very proud of that.

Now I would say she is a bit hard headed. I have no issue with someone needing temporary welfare aid. It is the people who are not incapable of doing for themselves and expect it who annoy me. She would rather do without than to receive something on the dole.

She just couldn't bear the thought of looking at herself in the mirror if she didn't get out there and improve her situation on her own. It is a strange mindset to some. To her it is perfectly natural.

[adamc91115]

Hard for me to say personally...

4 years ago I was still in high school. I know my family is doing better than 4 years ago. The family business is continuing to grow (again... be kind, Obama).

I know my situation has improved in the last 2 years. Bought a new truck, making 25% more than I was a year ago. Currently looking to buy a house.

So yes, better than 4 years ago for me and my family.

[Cajuncowboy]

I want to answer this using a friend. She is most decidedly a Conservative. Proud of it too. Has 2 teenage kids. Single Mom. Husband passed away very young. Lost her job and absolutely refused to apply for food stamps or any other assistance. They ate a lot of beans and a lot of peanut butter and jelly until she got another job and she was very proud of that.

Now I would say she is a bit hard headed. I have no issue with someone needing temporary welfare aid. It is the people who are not incapable of doing for themselves and expect it who annoy me. She would rather do without than to receive something on the dole.

She just couldn't bear the thought of looking at herself in the mirror if she didn't get out there and improve her situation on her own. It is a strange mindset to some. To her it is perfectly natural.

Mind if I ask you a question about your friend?

She's over 35 isn't she?

[VietCowboy]

I want to answer this using a friend. She is most decidedly a Conservative. Proud of it too. Has 2 teenage kids. Single Mom. Husband passed away very young. Lost her job and absolutely refused to apply for food stamps or any other assistance. They ate a lot of beans and a lot of peanut butter and jelly until she got another job and she was very proud of that.

Now I would say she is a bit hard headed. I have no issue with someone needing temporary welfare aid. It is the people who are not incapable of doing for themselves and expect it who annoy me. She would rather do without than to receive something on the dole.

She just couldn't bear the thought of looking at herself in the mirror if she didn't get out there and improve her situation on her own. It is a strange mindset to some. To her it is perfectly natural.

I guess the population I work with really biases my view. A lot of the homeless I work with have mental illness, and the kids are in such unstable environments, being in foster homes and other state institutions. I do agree that there are a lot of people who abuse it, but I have to disagree with "self-blame" for the ones who's circumstances are beyond their abilities (i.e. the people with serious mental health problems, and the kids who end up getting hurt by the system).

Good for your friend though, that must have been hard.

edit: statistics: Although less than 5% of the population suffers from severe mental illness, they comprise an estimated 20-40% of the homeless population
http://www.calpsych.org/publications/access/homelessness.html

[Hostile]

Mind if I ask you a question about your friend?

She's over 35 isn't she?Yes sir. Why?

[Hostile]

I guess the population I work with really biases my view. A lot of the homeless I work with have mental illness, and the kids are in such unstable environments, being in foster homes and other state institutions. I do agree that there are a lot of people who abuse it, but I have to disagree with "self-blame" for the ones who's circumstances are beyond their abilities (i.e. the people with serious mental health problems, and the kids who end up getting hurt by the system).

Good for your friend though, that must have been hard.

edit: statistics: Although less than 5% of the population suffers from severe mental illness, they comprise an estimated 20-40% of the homeless population
http://www.calpsych.org/publications/access/homelessness.htmlPlease note I did not include those people. I said people who are not incapable, in other words who are capable.

Take my Mom for instance. She is not capable. She's in a wheelchair. She has only one arm. She has severe rheumatoid arthritis so bad that she only has the use of 2 fingers.

She receives benefits. A healthy 21 year old who has irresponsibly had 2 or 3 kids is not in the same boat as my mother and while I can sympathize with how hard it is for that 21 year old I do think bbgun's original point which has spurred this sidetrack is valid. It is the person in the mirror, not President Bush (et al).

[Cajuncowboy]

Yes sir. Why?

Just the mindset has changed by the generations. I really feel that people under 35, not all but I think the majority have grown up with a hand out mentality.

Older people who made this country great had a "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality.

The younger generation is all about "What can someone else give me."

It was pretty much a foregone conclusion you would say yes.

I see it everyday.

[adamc91115]

Just the mindset has changed by the generations. I really feel that people under 35, not all but I think the majority have grown up with a hand out mentality.

Older people who made this country great had a "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality.

The younger generation is all about "What can someone else give me."

It was pretty much a foregone conclusion you would say yes.

I see it everyday.

Believe me, its not everyone under 35.

My parents made sure that my 2 siblings and I didn't grow up with that "hand out mentality".

We have had to work very hard for anything we've ever had.

[ologan]

A better question is ,am I better off than I was eight years ago? The answer is absolutely yes. Eight years ago,I was laid off after working for a company for 25 years,at 55 years old,because the administration in charge at the time did absolutely nothing to stop the wanton dumping of foreign goods,namely steel tubing and pipe,on our shores,for the years they were in power! This went on for the two terms of this administration prior to the company going out of business.We sold everything we had,and moved to the mountains to start over again. My wife and I started our own businesses,which are successful due to hard work and outstanding customer service. Do I make as much now as I did then? On paper,no!But that's not the only gauge of success. We haven't even had to think about tapping into 401K funds,and are able to pay cash for everything,including our vehicles. Am I better off now,away from what we commonly referred to as the "war zone",which is Houston,Texas. No doubt about it.....My neighborhood swimming pool is a waterfall,and some of my neighbors are Ursus Americanus, or Black Bears.

I truly believe if I had to go into the corporate world again today to work at a "real job",I'd probably be fired the first day,cause after you've worked for yourself successfully,it would be hard to call anybody else 'boss' after that.

Funny, while typing this,a commercial for Barak Obama came on the TV,where he said he was worried about those workers whose jobs would be shipped overseas....Well Barak,mine was effectively shipped overseas well before the Bush administration took over.

[Cajuncowboy]

Believe me, its not everyone under 35.

My parents made sure that my 2 siblings and I didn't grow up with that "hand out mentality".

We have had to work very hard for anything we've ever had.

I agree, that's why I said the majority and not all. There are some out there who still ensure this thrives on. I have taught my kids this as well. But I deal with a lot of the younger generation and I see it all the time.

But as I said, I wasn't generalizing to include all, just most.

[VietCowboy]

Please note I did not include those people. I said people who are not incapable, in other words who are capable.

Take my Mom for instance. She is not capable. She's in a wheelchair. She has only one arm. She has severe rheumatoid arthritis so bad that she only has the use of 2 fingers.

She receives benefits. A healthy 21 year old who has irresponsibly had 2 or 3 kids is not in the same boat as my mother and while I can sympathize with how hard it is for that 21 year old I do think bbgun's original point which has spurred this sidetrack is valid. It is the person in the mirror, not President Bush (et al).

The problem is, a lot of time, people would look at a homeless person, or someone sitting on the steps all day and say they are irresponsible. The problem I can see with your "healthy" 21 year old is she might have depression. She could be physically healthy, and fit, but about 30% of women suffer from depression, many of them in incredible difficult situations. This is why i think Mental illness has a lot of a bigger role in homelessness than the average person can think or entertain.

President Bush's cut a lot of funding for research and programs related to this, which is why I am bitter about him, but I do agree to a certain extent, that for a good many, they should be looking in the mirror before pointing the finger at someone else.

[avaj]

In some aspects yes and others no

[Cajuncowboy]

The problem is, a lot of time, people would look at a homeless person, or someone sitting on the steps all day and say they are irresponsible. The problem I can see with your "healthy" 21 year old is she might have depression. She could be physically healthy, and fit, but about 30% of women suffer from depression, many of them in incredible difficult situations. This is why i think Mental illness has a lot of a bigger role in homelessness than the average person can think or entertain.

President Bush's cut a lot of funding for research and programs related to this, which is why I am bitter about him, but I do agree to a certain extent, that for a good many, they should be looking in the mirror before pointing the finger at someone else.

30%?

Really?

[adamc91115]

I agree, that's why I said the majority and not all. There are some out there who still ensure this thrives on. I have taught my kids this as well. But I deal with a lot of the younger generation and I see it all the time.

But as I said, I wasn't generalizing to include all, just most.

No question... I went to school with too many of those kinds of people.

Its a shame though... Those "hand out" people far outnumber the ones who would rather make it on their own (at least where I live, I know its different from region to region.)

[Hostile]

The problem is, a lot of time, people would look at a homeless person, or someone sitting on the steps all day and say they are irresponsible. The problem I can see with your "healthy" 21 year old is she might have depression. She could be physically healthy, and fit, but about 30% of women suffer from depression, many of them in incredible difficult situations. This is why i think Mental illness has a lot of a bigger role in homelessness than the average person can think or entertain.

President Bush's cut a lot of funding for research and programs related to this, which is why I am bitter about him, but I do agree to a certain extent, that for a good many, they should be looking in the mirror before pointing the finger at someone else.90% of the homeless people I encounter have 3 things in common.

Addiction (drugs, alcohol, cigarettes)
Lack of education
No self worth (unkempt)

It is very hard for me to feel sorry for someone who outside a restaurant tells me they are hungry, asks me for money, but will not accept me buying them a meal. I have had that happen so many times I can't even tell you.

Bad example to use if you wanted me to feel sorry for some people. I don't. I told a Dr. today that I can't even comprehend "depression."

You will probably think I am a terrible person for saying these things. Go ahead. I believe some people genuinely need welfare. Someone who is "depressed" and continues to drink alcohol (which is a depressant) are not among those I think deserve it. I have no sympathy for people who abuse the system.

[Jarv]

I'm ten time better off than 6 years ago when I started my own company. I have just reached the pinacle this year that I either need to get married or make less money to keep more...If Obama is elected :)

I guess I should have stayed in corp. world, which I have just rejoined and hired someone to run production for my business. So now I have added income to my corporate salary and I don't have to shell out big bucks for medical insurance

Took a pay cut doing this, but I have paid vacations and holidays now :).

[MetalHead]

I'm way better off too.
Between the wife and I we more than double the avg. household income,and I lost my job in June!
Got a better one a week later.

Tell Robin Hood to keep the Change.

[bbgun]

A lot of people who answer "yes" to this question will be voting for Obama anyway. Some people are just tired of eight years of Republican rule, pocketbook issues notwithstanding.

[MetalHead]

90% of the homeless people I encounter have 3 things in common.

Addiction (drugs, alcohol, cigarettes)
Lack of education
No self worth (unkempt)

It is very hard for me to feel sorry for someone who outside a restaurant tells me they are hungry, asks me for money, but will not accept me buying them a meal. I have had that happen so many times I can't even tell you.

Bad example to use if you wanted me to feel sorry for some people. I don't. I told a Dr. today that I can't even comprehend "depression."

You will probably think I am a terrible person for saying these things. Go ahead. I believe some people genuinely need welfare. Someone who is "depressed" and continues to drink alcohol (which is a depressant) are not among those I think deserve it. I have no sympathy for people who abuse the system.



Are you my long lost brother?

[Kangaroo]

my answer would be no. i lost 2 jobs and my 401k lost 40% (recently)

gas prices kept me from traveling and one of my friends brother was killed in iraq.

i also had a cousin who passed away because her insurance company wouldnt pay for her treatment.
we all tried to raise money but it was too late. i suffered through some flu seasons because the copay on my health insurance got higher. i do thank the government for my school grants. other than that, last 4 years have been pretty rough. :(

Sure the hell am I got layed off got 8 months to go away 2 weeks after my last day I got a 10% pay raise a Job raise and I finally got into the part of IT I been grinding and fighting to get into for 10 years. My hard work payed off big time.

In a couple years if I decided to make one last jump I can really bump my salary to another scale

In fact in the 8 years under Bush my wife got layed of and are combine salaries today are back to where they where and that is with my wife working part time because I have increased my pay almost 50% in that time.

I hit my 14th year of Marriage (I am most proud of that than any accomplishment in my life) The again My grandparents where married 70years then my Grandmother passed away. So I have a lot to live up to.

[Jarv]

A lot of people who answer "yes" to this question will be voting for Obama anyway. Some people are just tired of eight years of Republican rule, pocketbook issues notwithstanding.

Not me :)

[VietCowboy]

90% of the homeless people I encounter have 3 things in common.

Addiction (drugs, alcohol, cigarettes)
Lack of education
No self worth (unkempt)

It is very hard for me to feel sorry for someone who outside a restaurant tells me they are hungry, asks me for money, but will not accept me buying them a meal. I have had that happen so many times I can't even tell you.

Bad example to use if you wanted me to feel sorry for some people. I don't. I told a Dr. today that I can't even comprehend "depression."

You will probably think I am a terrible person for saying these things. Go ahead. I believe some people genuinely need welfare. Someone who is "depressed" and continues to drink alcohol (which is a depressant) are not among those I think deserve it. I have no sympathy for people who abuse the system.

no, you are right to not give them money. I would do exactly what you'd have done and offer food, and if not, then they're not going to get my money.

It does sadden me that those are your experiences, but that doesn't make me think less of you. Many people feel the same way as you. It is a product of our experiences, which is why mine are different from yours.

I see depression as a disease, and that is how I approach things. There are a lot more schizophrenics, schizoid, and schizotypal's on the streets, among many of the other mental illnesses. The homeless I work with are probably different from the one's you've interacted, and that is why our views are different.

[Hostile]

Are you my long lost brother?I have one but he lives in ND.

:D

[Hostile]

no, you are right to not give them money. I would do exactly what you'd have done and offer food, and if not, then they're not going to get my money.

It does sadden me that those are your experiences, but that doesn't make me think less of you. Many people feel the same way as you. It is a product of our experiences, which is why mine are different from yours.

I see depression as a disease, and that is how I approach things. There are a lot more schizophrenics, schizoid, and schizotypal's on the streets, among many of the other mental illnesses. The homeless I work with are probably different from the one's you've interacted, and that is why our views are different.Understand something. My childhood was a nightmare. You can't even comprehend some of it and I won't bore you with it. I do not get feeling sorry for anyone who can change their circumstances but has no desire to. I could very easily been a worthless piece of crap blight on society. I decided I was better than my circumstances and I busted my butt.

The semester my son died I pulled a 4.0. I am damned proud of that. I had a wife, 2 kids, and a full time job and still got 3 degrees and a 3.87 GPA.

Some people just don't want what life has to offer and they are "depressed." We are a severely over medicated society. Look at how much Ritalin, Zanax, Valium and other behavioral or depression drugs are prescribed in this country vs. the rest of the world. It should shock the cap out of you.

[Cajuncowboy]

no, you are right to not give them money. I would do exactly what you'd have done and offer food, and if not, then they're not going to get my money.

It does sadden me that those are your experiences, but that doesn't make me think less of you. Many people feel the same way as you. It is a product of our experiences, which is why mine are different from yours.

I see depression as a disease, and that is how I approach things. There are a lot more schizophrenics, schizoid, and schizotypal's on the streets, among many of the other mental illnesses. The homeless I work with are probably different from the one's you've interacted, and that is why our views are different.

I live in Nashville as well and most of my experiences are identical to Hos'.

The fact that they hold signs at the Donelson exit off 40 saying "Hungry" when there is a McDonalds or KFC right there and won't let me buy them a meal means they are only only looking for a handout. They think that is their job. Panhandling.

I actually saw a guy who had a sign like this so i went and bought the guy a meal at KFC and brought it back to him.

He took it and threw it on the ground.

And living in Nashville you will remember a few months ago the lady who was beat up by a guy who asked her for food money at the Burger King in Antioch I think. He beat her up after she went back in and bought him food, He didn't want the food. He wanted money for drugs or booze.

So to think that these people are just a victim of circumstance on the whole is ludicrous. there may be SOME who are having problems out of their control but I think a bunch of them are just lazy and without any kind of self motivation at all.

[Kangaroo]

no, you are right to not give them money. I would do exactly what you'd have done and offer food, and if not, then they're not going to get my money.

It does sadden me that those are your experiences, but that doesn't make me think less of you. Many people feel the same way as you. It is a product of our experiences, which is why mine are different from yours.

I see depression as a disease, and that is how I approach things. There are a lot more schizophrenics, schizoid, and schizotypal's on the streets, among many of the other mental illnesses. The homeless I work with are probably different from the one's you've interacted, and that is why our views are different.

My brother in law is a cop I hear all the homeless stories almost all the ones the Houston Police deal with are mentally Ill or drug/alcohol issue and quite a few have both. Some of that could have been caused by the drugs as well.

I can say I rarely feel sorry for them and I never give them cash directly I have given some food I usually try to donate to charities that deal with them that way at I know they are not using money to buy drugs etc.

[VietCowboy]

Understand something. My childhood was a nightmare. You can't even comprehend some of it and I won't bore you with it. I do not get feeling sorry for anyone who can change their circumstances but has no desire to. I could very easily been a worthless piece of crap blight on society. I decided I was better than my circumstances and I busted my butt.

The semester my son died I pulled a 4.0. I am damned proud of that. I had a wife, 2 kids, and a full time job and still got 3 degrees and a 3.87 GPA.

Some people just don't want what life has to offer and they are "depressed." We are a severely over medicated society. Look at how much Ritalin, Zanax, Valium and other behavioral or depression drugs are prescribed in this country vs. the rest of the world. It should shock the cap out of you.

Well, that means you've been highly resilient. That is commendable. There are kids who do go through the most unimaginable things and they've made it. There are a couple of studies going on on resiliency and they are the exception, not the rule.

This will just be something we have to disagree on. Mental health is my passion, so what you've described does not shock me. I'm not interested in being psychiatrist because I don't prescribe to the medication doctrine (at least not solely). I'm a big proponent for CBT and changing cognitive thinking (getting people to get over their hopelessness, etc), and I'm interested in mental health intervention research, so I don't think people are hopeless if they have a mental illness, but I do not agree with you on this point that people are "depressed."

[Hostile]

Well, that means you've been highly resilient. That is commendable. There are kids who do go through the most unimaginable things and they've made it. There are a couple of studies going on on resiliency and they are the exception, not the rule.

This will just be something we have to disagree on. Mental health is my passion, so what you've described does not shock me. I'm not interested in being psychiatrist because I don't prescribe to the medication doctrine (at least not solely). I'm a big proponent for CBT and changing cognitive thinking (getting people to get over their hopelessness, etc), and I'm interested in mental health intervention research, so I don't think people are hopeless if they have a mental illness, but I do not agree with you on this point that people are "depressed."If they aren't depressed, why are they taking the drugs for it?

Drugs make people dependent.

Am I really supposed to believe that 92% of the depressed people in the world live within the borders of the nation that offers the most?

BTW, I am a firm believer in Holistic healing. I want that added in health insurance packages if they ever do get around to fixing it which they won't. Someone pointed out to me today that in 1980 Ronald Reagan told Jimmy Carter "well, there you go again." Many people believe this was a turning point towards his election. The question was about improving health care.

1980.

If you believe it's going to get better in 2008 to 2012 you're naive.

[Maikeru-sama]

I have to disagree.

From my experience, I have seen those who are conservative and those who are liberal blame everyone else for their problems.

Liberals definately don't have the market cornered on blaming everyone else.

But hey, its all about your perspective.

[Kangaroo]

If they aren't depressed, why are they taking the drugs for it?

Drugs make people dependent.

Am I really supposed to believe that 92% of the depressed people in the world live within the borders of the nation that offers the most?

BTW, I am a firm believer in Holistic healing. I want that added in health insurance packages if they ever do get around to fixing it which they won't. Someone pointed out to me today that in 1980 Ronald Reagan told Jimmy Carter "well, there you go again." Many people believe this was a turning point towards his election. The question was about improving health care.

1980.

If you believe it's going to get better in 2008 to 2012 you're naive.

Hostile I am along the same line I think the issue is to many people in the US have no hope they do not believe in anything and to many parents do not want to put the hardwork it takes to raise children.

I have two and I have to put time in from my Time ontop of wor. I am a Cubscout leader (I love it) but ontop of his meetings I have to go to training for it on my time and on my dime. I have planning meetings etc etc.. Then we work on stuff togher at home to meet requirements.

It amazes me how many parents do not get their children involved now days into anything at all sports; scouts nothing they put the xbox down and let it babysit them.

Just my opinion

[Maikeru-sama]

Also, I always find it funny how the older generation looks down on the younger generation.

I just turned 30 and I find myself doing the same thing.

[Hostile]

I have to disagree.

From my experience, I have seen those who are conservative and those who are liberal blame everyone else for their problems.

Liberals definately don't have the market cornered on blaming everyone else.

But hey, its all about your perspective.Some do. iceberg was making generalizations.

I think.

[VietCowboy]

If they aren't depressed, why are they taking the drugs for it?

Drugs make people dependent.

Am I really supposed to believe that 92% of the depressed people in the world live within the borders of the nation that offers the most?

BTW, I am a firm believer in Holistic healing. I want that added in health insurance packages if they ever do get around to fixing it which they won't. Someone pointed out to me today that in 1980 Ronald Reagan told Jimmy Carter "well, there you go again." Many people believe this was a turning point towards his election. The question was about improving health care.

1980.

If you believe it's going to get better in 2008 to 2012 you're naive.

Mental health is incredibly young field. When Galileo was talking about astronomy and physics, we thought "lunatics" were due to the "moon," that they are witches, etc. We've only had the DSM since the 1950's and there is a lot of problems and disputes with the current version (DSM-IV-TR). Before, we thought PTSD was "shell shock" at least now people see it as an actual disease as oppose to men who are weak. We do not say we know everything about mental health, but are making very slow progress. The Bush administration has made it incredibly difficult to scientists and researchers to advance the field by making it hard to get funding for research, and the money is just not available.

The rest of the world uses the ICD-10, so the standards are different. In Asian countries, there's neurasthenia, which is similar to depression, and the rates are pretty awful. Neurasthenia is not recognized in the DSM, but the ICD. No, depression does not have the same prevalent rates like schizophrenia, which is stable across countries and in time, but it is not limited to the US. Just because the US is prescribing more medication for depression does not mean that other countries have less prevelance. The psychiatrists and other mental health workers are just not as available in many developing countries as developed countries. It's sad, but you'll see an increase in anti-depressant medication in developed countries in the next couple of years as due to increasing awareness of depression as a disease.

As far as SSRI's or other antidepressants, it's actually been shown to help other diseases, not just depression, which may be a factor in why it is prescribed a lot. Again, I don't have much experience with medication, but if I had to make a guess, that would be why.

[Hostile]

Hostile I am along the same line I think the issue is to many people in the US have no hope they do not believe in anything and to many parents do not want to put the hardwork it takes to raise children.

I have two and I have to put time in from my Time ontop of wor. I am a Cubscout leader (I love it) but ontop of his meetings I have to go to training for it on my time and on my dime. I have planning meetings etc etc.. Then we work on stuff togher at home to meet requirements.

It amazes me how many parents do not get their children involved now days into anything at all sports; scouts nothing they put the xbox down and let it babysit them.

Just my opinionI am sending you a PM that I would very much like to post, but people would be totally upset about it.

[VietCowboy]

Hostile I am along the same line I think the issue is to many people in the US have no hope they do not believe in anything and to many parents do not want to put the hardwork it takes to raise children.

I have two and I have to put time in from my Time ontop of wor. I am a Cubscout leader (I love it) but ontop of his meetings I have to go to training for it on my time and on my dime. I have planning meetings etc etc.. Then we work on stuff togher at home to meet requirements.

It amazes me how many parents do not get their children involved now days into anything at all sports; scouts nothing they put the xbox down and let it babysit them.

Just my opinion

some parents are over-involved, other's are under-involved. I posted a story in a thread a little while ago about "are we making our kids wimps" because they are coddled and don't understand failure. I do not know what the percentages are, but would be interested to know.

[iceberg]

Some do. iceberg was making generalizations.

I think.

yea nothing specific. just a general tendency of either side.

[Hostile]

Mental health is incredibly young field. When Galileo was talking about astronomy and physics, we thought "lunatics" were due to the "moon," that they are witches, etc. We've only had the DSM since the 1950's and there is a lot of problems and disputes with the current version (DSM-IV-TR). Before, we thought PTSD was "shell shock" at least now people see it as an actual disease as oppose to men who are weak. We do not say we know everything about mental health, but are making very slow progress. The Bush administration has made it incredibly difficult to scientists and researchers to advance the field by making it hard to get funding for research, and the money is just not available.

The rest of the world uses the ICD-10, so the standards are different. In Asian countries, there's neurasthenia, which is similar to depression, and the rates are pretty awful. Neurasthenia is not recognized in the DSM, but the ICD. No, depression does not have the same prevalent rates like schizophrenia, which is stable across countries and in time, but it is not limited to the US. Just because the US is prescribing more medication for depression does not mean that other countries have less prevelance. The psychiatrists and other mental health workers are just not as available in many developing countries as developed countries. It's sad, but you'll see an increase in anti-depressant medication in developed countries in the next couple of years as due to increasing awareness of depression as a disease.

As far as SSRI's or other antidepressants, it's actually been shown to help other diseases, not just depression, which may be a factor in why it is prescribed a lot. Again, I don't have much experience with medication, but if I had to make a guess, that would be why.I have my own theory as to why there is so much depression in this country but it would cause hysteria beyond belief.

I don't agree with you. Respectfully. I think we are severely over medicated. Surprisingly enough people who participate in "my own theory" above are rarely depressed.

I am not saying depression is a fallacy. I am saying it is too easy a diagnosis way too often.

[Cajuncowboy]

I have my own theory as to why there is so much depression in this country but it would cause hysteria beyond belief.

I don't agree with you. Respectfully. I think we are severely over medicated. Surprisingly enough people who participate in "my own theory" above are rarely depressed.

I am not saying depression is a fallacy. I am saying it is too easy a diagnosis way too often.

I was depressed yesterday at about 3:30PM and wanted some medication.

Then I saw that Wade was not going to get fired and I was even more depressed.

Still, no medication.

[Hostile]

I was depressed yesterday at about 3:30PM and wanted some medication.

Then I saw that Wade was not going to get fired and I was even more depressed.

Still, no medication.I can actually relate to this.

[Cajuncowboy]

I can actually relate to this.

I live close to vietcowboy and was going to go see him for some medication but he said I would have to wait three weeks for an appointment.

[VietCowboy]

transient depression is different from being diagnosed with depression.

[Hostile]

transient depression is different from being diagnosed with depression.I have no idea what the point of this is. Forgive me.

[VietCowboy]

I have my own theory as to why there is so much depression in this country but it would cause hysteria beyond belief.

I don't agree with you. Respectfully. I think we are severely over medicated. Surprisingly enough people who participate in "my own theory" above are rarely depressed.

I am not saying depression is a fallacy. I am saying it is too easy a diagnosis way too often.

Diagnosis is often very inaccurate and that is a huge problem, I agree. People can also pretend to be malingering. The scales we use to diagnose depression has degrees of specificity and sensitivity, so there will be mis-diagnoses, and unfortunately, it seems the field currently values making sure we catch all the real cases (therefore over-diagnosis those that don't have it) than to let those who do have it slip through the cracks but ruling out many of the ones who don't have the disease.

[sacase]

4 years ago I was in the Army and paying on a 1999 Cougar. I wasn't able to do to much becuse my rent cost one of my paychecks.

Now I am driving an 06 Mercedes E350, I dropped $2100 on suits the other day, I travel when I feel like it and my 401k has been growing like crazy, until recently. Home purchase is on the way once I decide if I want to commute once my job moves.

So yeah...I am doung a lot better considering my income has more than doubled.

[Danny White]

I have no idea what the point of this is. Forgive me.

I've lost complete track of what any of this has to do with whether or not we're better off than we were four years ago, and how it's all Bush's fault. :p:

[Cajuncowboy]

I've lost complete track of what any of this has to do with whether or not we're better off than we were four years ago, and how it's all Bush's fault. :p:

I didn't follow it either but I'll bet it went something like this...


Liberal: Are you better now than 4 years ago?

Everybody else: Yes, way better...

Liberal: I'm depressed.

And here we are... See, that wasn't too hard. :D

[Hostile]

I've lost complete track of what any of this has to do with whether or not we're better off than we were four years ago, and how it's all Bush's fault. :p:Sorry about the tangent, but it was a very good discussion with VC.

[VietCowboy]

I have no idea what the point of this is. Forgive me.

You quoted Cajun in your previous response, and he said he was depressed transiently yesterday. I just wanted to make the distinction that being depressed one day or occasionally is not the same as being chronically depressed or being diagnosed with major depressive disorder, or other depressive disorders.

That was all.

Back to the topic at hand:

I am not better off only because I like college a lot better than grad school. :D

[Cajuncowboy]

You quoted Cajun in your previous response, and he said he was depressed transiently yesterday. I just wanted to make the distinction that being depressed one day or occasionally is not the same as being chronically depressed or being diagnosed with major depressive disorder, or other depressive disorders.

That was all.

Back to the topic at hand:

I am not better off only because I like college a lot better than grad school. :D

So if they keep losing and Wade isn't fired, will I be chronically depressed?

[Kangaroo]

some parents are over-involved, other's are under-involved. I posted a story in a thread a little while ago about "are we making our kids wimps" because they are coddled and don't understand failure. I do not know what the percentages are, but would be interested to know.

I read the story there is no such thing as over involved parent what there is are parents trying to live through their kids and putting unreal expectations on the kid. That is the issue not that they are involved but that they try to make them into all stars at an age it does not matter and expect them to do things like an adult.

[Hostile]

You quoted Cajun in your previous response, and he said he was depressed transiently yesterday. I just wanted to make the distinction that being depressed one day or occasionally is not the same as being chronically depressed or being diagnosed with major depressive disorder, or other depressive disorders.

That was all.

Back to the topic at hand:

I am not better off only because I like college a lot better than grad school. :DHe was joking with me about being depressed about the game, not mocking clinical depression. I got it.

Oh and whether you like grad school or not, you are better off. If you doubt this look at your prospects with and without the Graduate degree.

[VietCowboy]

He was joking with me about being depressed about the game, not mocking clinical depression. I got it.

Oh and whether you like grad school or not, you are better off. If you doubt this look at your prospects with and without the Graduate degree.

oh I know I'm better off now than I was 4 years ago. As compared to 8 years ago, I am way better off. In 2000, I was starting 9th grade in California, renting a room for my parents and I in someone's else's house. In 2008, I own my own home and am working towards my higher ed. degree. I would say that I would have done that regardless of who the President is, and I'll get my higher ed. degree regardless of who is President. But, work-wise afterwards, I would benefit from an Obama Presidency than Bush. I'm not too clear on what McCain's views are on research funding, so I don't know. If it's the same, then the only thing really important to me is the SCOTUS. And there, Obama wins hands down.

And, it is just college is a lot more fun.

[Hostile]

oh I know I'm better off now than I was 4 years ago. As compared to 8 years ago, I am way better off. In 2000, I was starting 9th grade in California, renting a room for my parents and I in someone's else's house. In 2008, I own my own home and am working towards my higher ed. degree. I would say that I would have done that regardless of who the President is, and I'll get my higher ed. degree regardless of who is President. But, work-wise afterwards, I would benefit from an Obama Presidency than Bush. I'm not too clear on what McCain's views are on research funding, so I don't know. If it's the same, then the only thing really important to me is the SCOTUS. And there, Obama wins hands down.

And, it is just college is a lot more fun.:laugh2:

The bottom line is whoever is on the blue ticket is going to get your admiration and vote and whoever is on the red ticket is going to get your scorn and doubts. At least be honest about it. You can't succeed in clinical psychology by skirting reality.

[Heisenberg]

I haven't read the thread, but yes, I'm better off now than I was 4 years ago. I was unemployed 4 years ago or employed in dead-end jobs some of that year with not many prospects. Now I have a good, stable job doing work that I enjoy.

I'm also getting married on the 31st of this month. :D If the Cowboys start winning, I'll be as happy as a pig in ****.

[Cajuncowboy]

I haven't read the thread, but yes, I'm better off now than I was 4 years ago. I was unemployed 4 years ago or employed in dead-end jobs some of that year with not many prospects. Now I have a good, stable job doing work that I enjoy.

I'm also getting married on the 31st of this month. :D If the Cowboys start winning, I'll be as happy as a pig in ****.

Hey, congrats n the wedding Ozzu.

[VietCowboy]

:laugh2:

The bottom line is whoever is on the blue ticket is going to get your admiration and vote and whoever is on the red ticket is going to get your scorn and doubts. At least be honest about it. You can't succeed in clinical psychology by skirting reality.

I'm not a Democrat because there are things I don't agree with. Obama's a huge *** liberal, and we share some things in common, but there are things he believes in that I don't, and vice-versa. Like gay marriage, for example. I don't automatically vote straight ticket, and have voted Green/3rd party in the past (considering there's only been 2 elections since I was old enough to vote, that's big). My college experience definitely shaped my political view, and the county that has my college actually had more votes for Ralph Nader than George Bush in 2000.

I am a liberal, and being that more Democrats are liberal and more Republicans are conservative does mean I'm more likely to vote Democrat. But, I may not vote for a conservative Democrat.

[Heisenberg]

Hey, congrats n the wedding Ozzu.

Much appreciated. :)

[Hostile]

I'm not a Democrat because there are things I don't agree with. Obama's a huge *** liberal, and we share some things in common, but there are things he believes in that I don't, and vice-versa. Like gay marriage, for example. I don't automatically vote straight ticket, and have voted Green/3rd party in the past (considering there's only been 2 elections since I was old enough to vote, that's big). My college experience definitely shaped my political view, and the county that has my college actually had more votes for Ralph Nader than George Bush in 2000.

I am a liberal, and being that more Democrats are liberal and more Republicans are conservative does mean I'm more likely to vote Democrat. But, I may not vote for a conservative Democrat.Just wondering, you are aware that all four on the tickets have said they oppose changing the definition of marriage? I ask because I have heard people in this state say they are voting for Obama because he supports gay marriage. No he doesn't. None of the 4 do. Biden made that quite clear. All 4 however have supported better rights for life partners.

I love it when people say college shaped their politics. In other words you bought what your teachers sold instead of coming to your own views. I'm not chiding you for that. We each have our reasons. Some vote the way they do because their parents did. Some vote the way they do because they don't want to be like their parents.

I have one political belief and I am sticking to it. If you believe either side is going to fix anything, you're a sucker. That is why I laugh at your belief that anything will be better under Obama over McCain, or vice versa. Nothing really changes. Oh it'll put some people in a good mood that their guy won.

I like all four of the candidates this year for different reasons. I don't like Mr. Obama's tax ideas at all, and I am very open about that. It is the one topic of discussion upon which I actually share my opinions. I fear it will be a tough 4 years if he wins, but I will survive quite easily no matter which guy wins. I know how to overcome these things.

I like the cranky old guys. Give me a Biden/McCain or McCain/Biden ticket and I'd be pretty happy. If for no other reason than to watch the meltdowns. But don't try and tell me things will be better under either guy. No they won't. I've been around too long to buy into that hogwash.

Here's some free advice. Look at the topics of politics today. These will be the same topics in 4 years, 8 years, 12 years, and on. Think about what I said earlier. Reagan vs. Carter. Improved health care. 1980. 28 years ago.

Obama's going to change all that? Seriously?

I would ask the same question of a McCain supporter who stated what you did, that things would be better under their guy.

The only difference will be which side is sniping because their guy didn't win. Welcome to politics, also known as Pavlov's dog.

[Hostile]

Much appreciated. :)Didn't notice the nuptials announcement last night Ozzu. Maybe you added it later. Not sure. Regardless I offer my congrats too. I'll hit year 19 in December, God willing and the creek don't rise.

[Heisenberg]

Here's some free advice. Look at the topics of politics today. These will be the same topics in 4 years, 8 years, 12 years, and on. Think about what I said earlier. Reagan vs. Carter. Improved health care. 1980. 28 years ago.

Obama's going to change all that? Seriously?

Democrats have a realistic shot of a filibuster-proof majority. He very well might. This is the election that could potentially make sweeping changes.

Oh and while they aren't pulling for gay marriage, 3 out of 4 of them are against any sort of national ban on it. Betcha can't guess which one is for a national ban.

[Heisenberg]

Didn't notice the nuptials announcement last night Ozzu. Maybe you added it later. Not sure. Regardless I offer my congrats too. I'll hit year 19 in December, God willing and the creek don't rise.

I hope I'm as lucky. I'm pretty calm about the whole thing though. We've been living together for a while now and I'm glad we did that. I can't imagine doing it any other way.

[Hostile]

Democrats have a realistic shot of a filibuster-proof majority. He very well might. This is the election that could potentially make sweeping changes.

Oh and while they aren't pulling for gay marriage, 3 out of 4 of them are against any sort of national ban on it. Betcha can't guess which one is for a national ban.Oh please don't try and sell me that. I've seen majorities for both sides before. I've seen legislation passed and stuff is still screwed up.

It has nothing to do with who is in power.

I could care less for which one is for a National ban on gay marriage. I could care less who is Pro-Life or Pro Choice. I could care less who ate tacos for lunch. I could care less who had lobster for dinner. I could care less who is best with a hula hoop.

[Heisenberg]

Oh please don't try and sell me that. I've seen majorities for both sides before. I've seen legislation passed and stuff is still screwed up.

It has nothing to do with who is in power.

I could care less for which one is for a National ban on gay marriage. I could care less who is Pro-Life or Pro Choice. I could care less who ate tacos for lunch. I could care less who had lobster for dinner. I could care less who is best with a hula hoop.

I'm betting you that if Democrats get to a filibuster proof majority, you're going to see a national health plan. I'll put money on it. :) To me, that's a pretty major deal.

I have no problem with someone saying hey, I don't support gay marriage. I do have a problem with someone saying we should have a nationwide ban. That tells me all I need to know about someone.

[Hostile]

I hope I'm as lucky. I'm pretty calm about the whole thing though. We've been living together for a while now and I'm glad we did that. I can't imagine doing it any other way.I didn't believe in love at first sight until it happened to me. Got engaged 5 weeks after I met her. Got married 2 months after that.

Successful marriage has nothing to do with how you get there, it's about how committed you are to staying there. Some people will tell you that marriage is 50/50 give and take. That is a recipe for disaster. You give 100% and so does she or things go awry.

Best advice I can give you is that if you are going to fight (argue) over anything, do it naked.

[Hostile]

I'm betting you that if Democrats get to a filibuster proof majority, you're going to see a national health plan. I'll put money on it. :) To me, that's a pretty major deal.That is something I flat out do not want. So you are welcome to see that as an improvement. I think it is a terrible blow.

[Doomsday101]

I'm doing better than I was 8 years ago let alone 4 years ago. Not a rich man but doing well.

[iceberg]

I'm betting you that if Democrats get to a filibuster proof majority, you're going to see a national health plan. I'll put money on it. :) To me, that's a pretty major deal.

I have no problem with someone saying hey, I don't support gay marriage. I do have a problem with someone saying we should have a nationwide ban. That tells me all I need to know about someone.

so you're ok with turning into a socalized nation?

no one has answered this that i know of and i've asked it several times.

do people feel obama has many socalistic policies and is that what we really want for this country if so?

[Heisenberg]

so you're ok with turning into a socalized nation?

no one has answered this that i know of and i've asked it several times.

do people feel obama has many socalistic policies and is that what we really want for this country if so?

I don't think optional health insurance provided by the government is socialism. It's not as if the health insurance industry will be taken over by the government. You can keep your current insurance.

[iceberg]

I don't think optional health insurance provided by the government is socialism. It's not as if the health insurance industry will be taken over by the government. You can keep your current insurance.

but is it or is it not a step in that direction? like i said in another post, obama is steering towards that direction with his policies and people that want "revenge" on bush don't care where they go as long as bush and the repubs are slapped down.

i understand the anger. i don't understand the blind eye to the "Change" being offered.

[Hostile]

I don't think optional health insurance provided by the government is socialism. It's not as if the health insurance industry will be taken over by the government. You can keep your current insurance.I think it is too close for comfort.

[Heisenberg]

but is it or is it not a step in that direction? like i said in another post, obama is steering towards that direction with his policies and people that want "revenge" on bush don't care where they go as long as bush and the repubs are slapped down.

i understand the anger. i don't understand the blind eye to the "Change" being offered.

No. It's no more socialist than the US Postal Service is.

[trickblue]

I'm better off...

[iceberg]

No. It's no more socialist than the US Postal Service is.

so you're ok with more government and "spreading the wealth" to do it?

[Heisenberg]

so you're ok with more government and "spreading the wealth" to do it?

Adjusting the tax rates slightly is not socialism either. Sorry. It's an overused word to describe something that is not happening and won't happen.

[iceberg]

Adjusting the tax rates slightly is not socialism either. Sorry. It's an overused word to describe something that is not happening and won't happen.

much like shouting CHANGE! that's not going to change anything, huh?

many of obama's policies are socalistic in nature. you can turn a blind eye because you want something different and this is the only option, or you can dig and learn more as objectively as you can about this CHANGE.

[VietCowboy]

Just wondering, you are aware that all four on the tickets have said they oppose changing the definition of marriage? I ask because I have heard people in this state say they are voting for Obama because he supports gay marriage. No he doesn't. None of the 4 do. Biden made that quite clear. All 4 however have supported better rights for life partners.

I love it when people say college shaped their politics. In other words you bought what your teachers sold instead of coming to your own views. I'm not chiding you for that. We each have our reasons. Some vote the way they do because their parents did. Some vote the way they do because they don't want to be like their parents.

I have one political belief and I am sticking to it. If you believe either side is going to fix anything, you're a sucker. That is why I laugh at your belief that anything will be better under Obama over McCain, or vice versa. Nothing really changes. Oh it'll put some people in a good mood that their guy won.

I like all four of the candidates this year for different reasons. I don't like Mr. Obama's tax ideas at all, and I am very open about that. It is the one topic of discussion upon which I actually share my opinions. I fear it will be a tough 4 years if he wins, but I will survive quite easily no matter which guy wins. I know how to overcome these things.

I like the cranky old guys. Give me a Biden/McCain or McCain/Biden ticket and I'd be pretty happy. If for no other reason than to watch the meltdowns. But don't try and tell me things will be better under either guy. No they won't. I've been around too long to buy into that hogwash.

Here's some free advice. Look at the topics of politics today. These will be the same topics in 4 years, 8 years, 12 years, and on. Think about what I said earlier. Reagan vs. Carter. Improved health care. 1980. 28 years ago.

Obama's going to change all that? Seriously?

I would ask the same question of a McCain supporter who stated what you did, that things would be better under their guy.

The only difference will be which side is sniping because their guy didn't win. Welcome to politics, also known as Pavlov's dog.

No, my professors made me THINK, I don't automatically adopt their views. I have never talked to my professors about their political views, so I don't know. I do know we are one of the most liberal cities anywhere, and that has shaped my life. I see parents at the local high school demanding the school give out condoms. I see the majority of my professors and advisors biking in.

I would say, a story that was funny, was one of my Psychology professors. He's very famous, but very quirky. He was married, but ended up both he and his wife fell for someone of their same sex afterwards (he's got a theory on it; he believes we love person-wise, not a gender). He has kids, and has told his kids when they use to live at home (under 18), only sex at my house so at least they are "safe." It is this kind of attitude that has influenced me. I actually use to believe in pro-life when I was younger. I was a good Catholic, and believed everything the Church said. Now, as I've grown older, I'm not going to automatically believe something because the Church says so. My views really shaped by the empirical research we have out there. If something works, great, if not, we shouldn't keep throwing money out there. I believe in comprehensive sex ed because it works better than abstinence only. I believe in Gay marriage because I believe people don't choose to be gay. I believe in pro-choice, and I've talked with Peplaw I believe about it, so I don't want to mention it again. It's not so much about right or wrong, although I do draw the line at genetic counseling, cloning, and such, but it is about having the facts to back up your views.

As far as why I'm voting for Obama, I do believe he'll make changes. Again, like I've said before, Bush put the scientific community in the crapper. Innovation is slowing down, and a lot of it has to do with cut in funding. I really truly believe Obama will change that. Now, whether or not McCain will hasn't been said, but according to his Party's past 8 years in office, it doesn't look good. When it comes down to it, McCain said at the last debate no one who is for Roe v. Wade will be on nominated for the SCOTUS, and Obama is the opposite way.

Yes, I know that all 4 candidates and what they view on gay marriage. But I'm not a one-issue voter, but put weight on things that affect me personally. I really truly believe gay rights will be progressive under Obama's watch than McCain. I hope one day all LGBTQ community will be accepted and given all the rights I, as a heterosexual female, would enjoy were I to marry.

[cowboys#1]

even US socialist say obama is no socialist... lol


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-obama-chicago-socialist,0,4048540.story

[Danny White]

even US socialist say obama is no socialist... lol


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-obama-chicago-socialist,0,4048540.story

But he does have a more liberal voting record than Bernie Sanders, the one member of the Senate who actually admits to being a Socialist.

[iceberg]

even US socialist say obama is no socialist... lol

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-obama-chicago-socialist,0,4048540.story

let me ask you this - do you feel any of obamas policies can be considered socalist? if so, how much, if not, we'll go from there.

[Cajuncowboy]

even US socialist say obama is no socialist... lol


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-obama-chicago-socialist,0,4048540.story

LOL. Why would I believe a socialist.

And what better way to get one of your guys in the WH than to say he's not one of you. Helping to distance him from your radical ways.

Socialized welfare and "Spreading the wealth" AKA stealing from one to give to another are very socialist ideas.

[BrAinPaiNt]

LOL. Why would I believe a socialist.

And what better way to get one of your guys in the WH than to say he's not one of you. Helping to distance him from your radical ways.

Socialized welfare and "Spreading the wealth" AKA stealing from one to give to another are very socialist ideas.

IanG69RnZYA

[Cajuncowboy]

IanG69RnZYA

As soon as he said Bush was a communist, I stopped it and that was about 1 second in to it.

And you don't want to get me started about Turkey. I now way too much about them to give them any time of day.

[BrAinPaiNt]

As soon as he said Bush was a communist, I stopped it and that was about 1 second in to it.

And you don't want to get me started about Turkey. I now way too much about them to give them any time of day.

5ej6xzNJPFI

[Hostile]

No, my professors made me THINK, I don't automatically adopt their views. I have never talked to my professors about their political views, so I don't know. I do know we are one of the most liberal cities anywhere, and that has shaped my life. I see parents at the local high school demanding the school give out condoms. I see the majority of my professors and advisors biking in. They made you think, but thinking didn't shape your views. Now that is a great magic trick. Cool beans.

I once really pissed off one of my college professors. It was in a Literature class and he shared his political views. It had nothing whatsoever to do with "The Sun Also Rises" by Ernest Hemingway, so I got up, walked to the window, and looked out right in the middle of his dissertation of his political beliefs. He asked me what I was doing. I asked him to page me when class was back in session because I was spending a lot of money on my degree and didn't want to waste any of it on stuff that I could give a crap about.

He asked me to stay after class and he told me he was offended. I told him I was too and this shocked him. I told him if I wanted to hear his politics I would attend a rally where he was speaking. His politics did not have anything to do with my degree, and I warned him that if my grade suffered for my having stood up for my rights that I would ask for a review board to be convened. You see, there was no doubt to anyone in the class, including the professor, that I was by far the smartest student in the class.

I battled with this professor once more that semester. He thoroughly enjoyed it that time, but the story is not for this forum. Not exactly PG. It's not even PG-13. I got an A, and earned his respect and friendship.

You're probably asking why I am telling you this. That is what not shaping your views looks like. When you aren't afraid to take the stand opposite of the popular stand that surrounds you. You didn't get educated from your experience, you bought the sales pitch. I'm not saying that is good or bad. I'm not an animated cricket on your shoulder.

I would say, a story that was funny, was one of my Psychology professors. He's very famous, but very quirky. He was married, but ended up both he and his wife fell for someone of their same sex afterwards (he's got a theory on it; he believes we love person-wise, not a gender). He has kids, and has told his kids when they use to live at home (under 18), only sex at my house so at least they are "safe." It is this kind of attitude that has influenced me.I am sorry, but you completely lost me. The thought is incomplete and I don't get the innuendo. He wanted his under 18 kids to have safe sex at home? I honestly have no idea.

I actually use to believe in pro-life when I was younger. I was a good Catholic, and believed everything the Church said. Now, as I've grown older, I'm not going to automatically believe something because the Church says so. My views really shaped by the empirical research we have out there. If something works, great, if not, we shouldn't keep throwing money out there. I believe in comprehensive sex ed because it works better than abstinence only. I believe in Gay marriage because I believe people don't choose to be gay. I believe in pro-choice, and I've talked with Peplaw I believe about it, so I don't want to mention it again. It's not so much about right or wrong, although I do draw the line at genetic counseling, cloning, and such, but it is about having the facts to back up your views.I wasn't asking your views on Pro-choice or Pro-life, so I am not sure why you are defending them.

For the record I do not judge people on this issue. Some people could never vote for someone who is Pro-life (or Pro-choice). I do not hold with that thinking. I live in Arizona. I voted for John McCain for Senate and Janet Napolitano for Governor, and they are not united on that issue.

I am sick of that issue. I am sick of the Special Interest groups and their sheep followers. I would not think any differently of you if your opinion was 180 degrees the other way.

I am never surprised when a Conservative tells me he/she is Pro-Life. I am never surprised when a Liberal tells me he/she is Pro-Choice. I don't believe most of them are capable of enough independent thought to think any other way.

I am not saying you or anyone on this forum in particular. It is just my general observation that this particular topic is one for political sheep.

As far as why I'm voting for Obama, I do believe he'll make changes. Again, like I've said before, Bush put the scientific community in the crapper. Innovation is slowing down, and a lot of it has to do with cut in funding. I really truly believe Obama will change that. Now, whether or not McCain will hasn't been said, but according to his Party's past 8 years in office, it doesn't look good.It hasn't been said? What do you think alternative energy plans are, English lessons? Solar power is the scientific community. Wind power is the scientific community. Drilling, believe it or not, is the scientific community. Reducing the reliance on fossil fuels is the scientific community.

What, because it is not the psychological health field it is not science? That's ridiculous.

When it comes down to it, McCain said at the last debate no one who is for Roe v. Wade will be on nominated for the SCOTUS, and Obama is the opposite way. I could care less about Roe vs. Wade. Those special interest groups have held the country hostage for too many years. Both sides suck. I wish they would go away, but know they won't. In the meantime they dictate the two political sides more than the candidates do.

Yes, I know that all 4 candidates and what they view on gay marriage. But I'm not a one-issue voter, but put weight on things that affect me personally. I really truly believe gay rights will be progressive under Obama's watch than McCain. I hope one day all LGBTQ community will be accepted and given all the rights I, as a heterosexual female, would enjoy were I to marry.You brought the subject up, not me. You're backing a candidate who doesn't agree with your stance. That is all I was pointing out.

[VietCowboy]

They made you think, but thinking didn't shape your views. Now that is a great magic trick. Cool beans.

No, I don't believe everything my professors preached. I don't. They made me question all my prior beliefs which were made blindly because that is what the Catholic Church told me to believe. They taught me to look at the research done, and even question those research outcome as well as what they imply. Just because they never told me how to believe, or what they believe, doesn't make them any less influential in how I've shaped my beliefs. Again, no professors or advisor has ever told me their political views, so how could I have adopted them? Why shouldn't they give me the tools to let me think for myself? Why would that make them any less influential because they didn't tell me WHAT to think, just HOW to think?


I once really pissed off one of my college professors. It was in a Literature class and he shared his political views. It had nothing whatsoever to do with "The Sun Also Rises" by Ernest Hemingway, so I got up, walked to the window, and looked out right in the middle of his dissertation of his political beliefs. He asked me what I was doing. I asked him to page me when class was back in session because I was spending a lot of money on my degree and didn't want to waste any of it on stuff that I could give a crap about.

He asked me to stay after class and he told me he was offended. I told him I was too and this shocked him. I told him if I wanted to hear his politics I would attend a rally where he was speaking. His politics did not have anything to do with my degree, and I warned him that if my grade suffered for my having stood up for my rights that I would ask for a review board to be convened. You see, there was no doubt to anyone in the class, including the professor, that I was by far the smartest student in the class.

I battled with this professor once more that semester. He thoroughly enjoyed it that time, but the story is not for this forum. Not exactly PG. It's not even PG-13. I got an A, and earned his respect and friendship.

You're probably asking why I am telling you this. That is what not shaping your views looks like. When you aren't afraid to take the stand opposite of the popular stand that surrounds you. You didn't get educated from your experience, you bought the sales pitch. I'm not saying that is good or bad. I'm not an animated cricket on your shoulder.
What? I have no idea what you just said. The sales pitch being, question the status quo? The sales pitch being, why should you care what the research indicates? The sales pitch being, how did you arrive at that conclusion?


I am sorry, but you completely lost me. The thought is incomplete and I don't get the innuendo. He wanted his under 18 kids to have safe sex at home? I honestly have no idea.
it was an example of how someone can buck conventional thinking. Why would that view, parents asking their children, if you are going to have sex, do it at home, be worse than parents who pretend their children don't have sex?


I wasn't asking your views on Pro-choice or Pro-life, so I am not sure why you are defending them. Those were examples I have to show that I don't automatically follow a platform. I don't say, well, the democrats believe this, so will I. All of my personal beliefs are MY OWN, not someone else's, and are arrived at by myself. I guess that was not clear.


For the record I do not judge people on this issue. Some people could never vote for someone who is Pro-life (or Pro-choice). I do not hold with that thinking. I live in Arizona. I voted for John McCain for Senate and Janet Napolitano for Governor, and they are not united on that issue.

I am sick of that issue. I am sick of the Special Interest groups and their sheep followers. I would not think any differently of you if your opinion was 180 degrees the other way.

I am never surprised when a Conservative tells me he/she is Pro-Life. I am never surprised when a Liberal tells me he/she is Pro-Choice. I don't believe most of them are capable of enough independent thought to think any other way.

I am not saying you or anyone on this forum in particular. It is just my general observation that this particular topic is one for political sheep. I was trying to show you, and I guess that didn't come through, that I actually arrive at my positions independently, not because someone told me I had to think that way.


It hasn't been said? What do you think alternative energy plans are, English lessons? Solar power is the scientific community. Wind power is the scientific community. Drilling, believe it or not, is the scientific community. Reducing the reliance on fossil fuels is the scientific community.

What, because it is not the psychological health field it is not science? That's ridiculous.
Bush has cut funding for cancer research, NIH, NIMH, medical research, physical science research, aeronatics, basic science, etc. Why are you focusing on energy solely? Are you saying McCain will increase funding on all the research programs that Bush has cut and in many instances eliminated completely? Overall, scientists across MANY fields have backed Obama for a reason. Yes, Bush has increased research in some area, mostly having to do with security or defense, but that does not mean he has not put the scientific community on hold.


I could care less about Roe vs. Wade. Those special interest groups have held the country hostage for too many years. Both sides suck. I wish they would go away, but know they won't. In the meantime they dictate the two political sides more than the candidates do.

You brought the subject up, not me. You're backing a candidate who doesn't agree with your stance. That is all I was pointing out.
Yes, but it is not like we vote for someone because they agree with us 100%. Unless I am running for President, no one I will ever vote for will agree with me 100%. That is why I'm bringing up the subject. Others are saying, why are you voting for him when you don't agree on ONE issue, and that is my response.

I can see fault in both the Democrat and Republican. Just because I may agree with some platforms for the Democrats have, does not mean we will agree on how that conclusion is reached, nor will it mean we will agree on how to go about it afterwards. There are corrupt Democrats as there are corrupt Republicans. There are corrupt liberals as there are corrupt conservatives. I hate making sweeping generalization for that reason.

[Hostile]

First of all I have enjoyed this debate with you. I could easily tell you upon which topics I agree with you, but it has been more fun to push your thinking to see if you will crack. A few minor ones that I have no doubt you will seal with experience.

No, I don't believe everything my professors preached. I don't. They made me question all my prior beliefs which were made blindly because that is what the Catholic Church told me to believe. They taught me to look at the research done, and even question those research outcome as well as what they imply. Just because they never told me how to believe, or what they believe, doesn't make them any less influential in how I've shaped my beliefs. Again, no professors or advisor has ever told me their political views, so how could I have adopted them? Why shouldn't they give me the tools to let me think for myself? Why would that make them any less influential because they didn't tell me WHAT to think, just HOW to think?Much better explanation than the other post. You left way too much open for interpretation.

What? I have no idea what you just said. The sales pitch being, question the status quo? The sales pitch being, why should you care what the research indicates? The sales pitch being, how did you arrive at that conclusion?I wasn't cryptic, but I will go with the explanation above and accept this at face value.

it was an example of how someone can buck conventional thinking. Why would that view, parents asking their children, if you are going to have sex, do it at home, be worse than parents who pretend their children don't have sex? Read what you wrote again. It was nowhere near this. I couldn't have drawn this conclusion with a map. I got lucky to even be as close as I was.

I have no opinion on how your professor raised his kids that you would give any credence to anyway, so I shall refrain from sharing.

Those were examples I have to show that I don't automatically follow a platform. I don't say, well, the democrats believe this, so will I. All of my personal beliefs are MY OWN, not someone else's, and are arrived at by myself. I guess that was not clear.Apparently not, since you are following your professed party's platform. Or are you unaware that Pro-choice is not the Conservative Republican platform?

Perhaps you think it was the Catholic raising part which would evidence this. I was unaware that Pro-choice was a Catholic platform.

Truth be told, I have yet to see you step outside that party platform on any belief. You can't say the same about me.

Seal the cracks. ;)

I was trying to show you, and I guess that didn't come through, that I actually arrive at my positions independently, not because someone told me I had to think that way.I appreciate that. I don't think anyone can tell you what to think or believe, but I do think you are easily swayed by the political line.

In fact I'd bet money on it. Don't take the bet. I have made a fortune proving my point on these bets.

Bush has cut funding for cancer research, NIH, NIMH, medical research, physical science research, aeronatics, basic science, etc. Why are you focusing on energy solely? Are you saying McCain will increase funding on all the research programs that Bush has cut and in many instances eliminated completely? Overall, scientists across MANY fields have backed Obama for a reason. Yes, Bush has increased research in some area, mostly having to do with security or defense, but that does not mean he has not put the scientific community on hold.Thank you. You just proved my point about being swayed.

George Bush is not John McCain. You said McCain had not indicated any inclination to fund scientific studies and I named some of them regarding energy that have clearly been a part of his political platform (and both candidates have mentioned them and are the only subjects in the science fields that they are actually discussing). McCain wants to do more than Obama does, and this is backed by the candidate himself.

You skipped right over that to get back to Bush. Feel the swaying of the trees in the winds. Why not call and ask for McCain's stances on those fields of study instead of assigning him a belief because it was Bush's. I mean after all this is what your education taught you to do...you profess. Or was that window dressing to impress me?

English Major, you won't slip double talk past me.

McCain pushing more scientific research in energy than Obama. Not debatable VC.

Yes, but it is not like we vote for someone because they agree with us 100%. Unless I am running for President, no one I will ever vote for will agree with me 100%. That is why I'm bringing up the subject. Others are saying, why are you voting for him when you don't agree on ONE issue, and that is my response.Okay.

I still don't get how you can mention that as an important topic to you as justification for your vote, yet it isn't how he would vote, but I see the winds again. I know the dizziness will follow. I'll move on and let you seal that crack. ;)

I can see fault in both the Democrat and Republican. Just because I may agree with some platforms for the Democrats have, does not mean we will agree on how that conclusion is reached, nor will it mean we will agree on how to go about it afterwards. There are corrupt Democrats as there are corrupt Republicans. There are corrupt liberals as there are corrupt conservatives. I hate making sweeping generalization for that reason.Of course there are. Anyone who doesn't realize this is deluded.

Look the political parties are a joke. A bad joke at that. They only preach what their special interest groups who are funding them tell them to preach and their followers lap it up.

Can you please tell me when in the next 3 months George W. Bush is going to cancel Social Security? I have been dreading that day for 8 years. That scare tactic promise was made to me by the Democratic Party in 2000. Oh, I am a registered Democrat and my wife a registered Republican so we can hear the sales pitches from both sides. How about the overturning of Roe vs. Wade? When in the next 3 months is that happening with the Conservative judges Bush nominated? Same phone call in 2000 as the other scare tactic promise.

Guess what? Those same scare tactics of 2000 are back in 2008. Got the call last week. I could hear the hand wringing and picture the finger nails being swallowed and the Alka Seltzer fizzing in the background.

I'll hear it agian in 2012, 2016, 2020...and so will you. The difference is the weight we give it as evidenced by this thread.

Again, thanks. I am enjoying this debate.

[CowboyPrincess]

I want to answer this using a friend. She is most decidedly a Conservative. Proud of it too. Has 2 teenage kids. Single Mom. Husband passed away very young. Lost her job and absolutely refused to apply for food stamps or any other assistance. They ate a lot of beans and a lot of peanut butter and jelly until she got another job and she was very proud of that.

Now I would say she is a bit hard headed. I have no issue with someone needing temporary welfare aid. It is the people who are not incapable of doing for themselves and expect it who annoy me. She would rather do without than to receive something on the dole.

She just couldn't bear the thought of looking at herself in the mirror if she didn't get out there and improve her situation on her own. It is a strange mindset to some. To her it is perfectly natural.

Sounds like someone I know :)

As to the question posted... I am much better off than I was 4 years ago... much better

[trickblue]

Sounds like someone I know :)

As to the question posted... I am much better off than I was 4 years ago... much better

I think you DO know that person... ;)

[Maikeru-sama]

I still don't buy the generalization that Liberals blame everyone else and Conservatives blame themselves.

Also, I don't think there is a problem with getting Government Assistance.

Sometimes life throws people a curveball and as long as you are actively and frantically seeking employment, I see nothing wrong with it.

Now I am not going to lie, when I got laid off, I lived primarily off of my savings and would have been a little embarrased to apply for Government Assistance, plus I knew I could find employment pretty easily. However, im single and have no kids, but if I did have kids, I would definately swallow my pride and get Government Assistance if I felt I had too.

Oh, thought I would let everyone know how big of a joke Unemployment Insurance is. In Texas anyway.

[CowboyPrincess]

I think you DO know that person... ;)

Thats what I figured.. "hard headed" gave it away.. LOL

[CowboyPrincess]

I still don't buy the generalization that Liberals blame everyone else and Conservatives blame themselves.

Also, I don't think there is a problem with getting Government Assistance.

Sometimes life throws people a curveball and as long as you are actively and frantically seeking employment, I see nothing wrong with it.

Now I am not going to lie, when I got laid off, I lived primarily off of my savings and would have been a little embarrased to apply for Government Assistance, plus I knew I could find employment pretty easily. However, im single and have no kids, but if I did have kids, I would definately swallow my pride and get Government Assistance if I felt I had too.

Oh, thought I would let everyone know how big of a joke Unemployment Insurance is. In Texas anyway.

Swallow pride and get government assistance? What do you teach your children by doing that? Losing everything and being strong enough to fix your situation yourself is a much better lesson in my mind. Now, there are some that need assistance like those that lost everything in Katrina and I mean everything. But if you have a roof over your head and two legs that work, you could at least get on at a temp agency, cut coupons, walk or take a bus instead of driving and spending money on gas, etc. That is a lesson to teach your kids. That when the chips are down, don't feel sorry for yourself and take the easy way... pull yourself up and fix it yourself - be responsible

[Maikeru-sama]

Swallow pride and get government assistance? What do you teach your children by doing that? Losing everything and being strong enough to fix your situation yourself is a much better lesson in my mind. Now, there are some that need assistance like those that lost everything in Katrina and I mean everything. But if you have a roof over your head and two legs that work, you could at least get on at a temp agency, cut coupons, walk or take a bus instead of driving and spending money on gas, etc. That is a lesson to teach your kids. That when the chips are down, don't feel sorry for yourself and take the easy way... pull yourself up and fix it yourself - be responsible

Like I said, sometimes life throws people curveballs.

You don't know everyone's situation.

I see nothing wrong with someone getting Government Assistance.

To me, it is no different than me helping out a friend, family member or maybe even a complete stranger on a personal level.

You see it as being a gutless human being, I see it as getting help temporarily while someone gets on their feet.

We disagree, but that's no suprise.

[CowboyPrincess]

Like I said, sometimes life throws people curveballs.

You don't know everyone's situation.

I see nothing wrong with someone getting Government Assistance.

To me, it is no different than me helping out a friend, family member or maybe even a complete stranger on a personal level.

You see it as being a gutless human being, I see it as getting help temporarily while someone gets on their feet.

We disagree, but that's no suprise.

Thats not true. I never said that I said that taking personal responsibility for your situation and getting yourself out of it was a better lesson for kids. Too many people take the easy route now. My daddy taught me that nothing in life is free and that it takes a strong back and elbow grease to find the real rewards. Some people would rather take a hand out and keep their cable tv and internet on rather than cut back to the necessary needs and work their way back up.

I'm just speaking from my experience and I don't claim to know whats best for everyone, but elbow grease works for me and that is why I am better off now than I was 4 yrs ago

[Maikeru-sama]

Thats not true. I never said that I said that taking personal responsibility for your situation and getting yourself out of it was a better lesson for kids. Too many people take the easy route now. My daddy taught me that nothing in life is free and that it takes a strong back and elbow grease to find the real rewards. Some people would rather take a hand out and keep their cable tv and internet on rather than cut back to the necessary needs and work their way back up.

I'm just speaking from my experience and I don't claim to know whats best for everyone, but elbow grease works for me and that is why I am better off now than I was 4 yrs ago

True, but I think you are taking the extreme view when you mention the part about Cable TV and Internet.

I stated that I didn't see anything wrong with it, as long as you are doing the best you can and looking for a job.

Also, where exactly do you think Government Assistance comes from? Taxpayers. God forbid I fall on extremely difficult times and can't find a job (that happens sometimes you know), I don't exactly see it as getting a handout when it is money I paid into the system anyway.

Too many people take it to the extremes when talking about this stuff. Not all people on Welfare are on there because they didn't want to give up theire Internet, Cable and have a crappy work ethic.

Like I said, I have never been on Welfare, hope I don't have too, but god forbid I fall on extremely difficult times and have mouths to feed, I will get Government Assistance, if it comes to that.

My mom raised 3 kids by herself, so I know what a good work ethic is. But if push comes to shove, I will swallow my pride and get some "assistance", if I need it.

The "I can do it so everyone else can" theory is hard to apply to everyone imo.

[CowboyPrincess]

True, but I think you are taking the extreme view when you mention the part about Cable TV and Internet.

I stated that I didn't see anything wrong with it, as long as you are doing the best you can and looking for a job.

Also, where exactly do you think Government Assistance comes from? Taxpayers. God forbid I fall on extremely difficult times and can't find a job (that happens sometimes you know), I don't exactly see it as getting a handout when it is money I paid into the system anyway.

Too many people take it to the extremes when talking about this stuff. Not all people on Welfare are on there because they didn't want to give up theire Internet, Cable and have a crappy work ethic.

Like I said, I have never been on Welfare, hope I don't have too, but god forbid I fall on extremely difficult times and have mouths to feed, I will get Government Assistance, if it comes to that.

My mom raised 3 kids by herself, so I know what a good work ethic is. But if push comes to shove, I will swallow my pride and get some "assistance", if I need it.

The "I can do it so everyone else can" theory is hard to apply to everyone imo.

That is why I said "some people" And previously I said I understood for people that have lost everything. And I know from experience that some people use welfare to kick back, watch their cable and eat steak.

Look... this is getting way off the subject and no matter what you will turn what I say or try to paint me an extremist. You don't like me much and thats fine, no skin off my nose. Lets just drop this cuz you and I very rarely see eye to eye and we are just wasting each others time here.

I'm ultra conservative, proud of it, and as hostile put it, I'm hard headed in my thinking. I believe in ultimate personal responsibility and I want the government to stay out of my life as much as possible... all things you don't like - IMO

[trickblue]

I still don't buy the generalization that Liberals blame everyone else and Conservatives blame themselves.

Also, I don't think there is a problem with getting Government Assistance.

Sometimes life throws people a curveball and as long as you are actively and frantically seeking employment, I see nothing wrong with it.

Now I am not going to lie, when I got laid off, I lived primarily off of my savings and would have been a little embarrased to apply for Government Assistance, plus I knew I could find employment pretty easily. However, im single and have no kids, but if I did have kids, I would definately swallow my pride and get Government Assistance if I felt I had too.

Oh, thought I would let everyone know how big of a joke Unemployment Insurance is. In Texas anyway.

I do agree that some do need government assistance at times... but it should be very temporary except in a few cases. There are other avenues as well. I know my church makes GREAT efforts to help the poor in my community...

I work for an electric utility and I have helped out with people's bills financially that truly need assistance. I've been blessed and it's the least I can do. Those people DO exist, but I think they are the minority in large part...

You are old school, Mike... you chose to be self sufficient... and I respect that greatly. If Americans aren't putting 10% of everything they make in savings every week, they are doing it wrong. Many in this country CHOOSE to live paycheck to paycheck instead of putting away money for a rainy day. Too many in this country have resources to work even when life deals them a bad hand, but they choose to live off of the rest of us rather than taking a job "flipping burgers"...

I've certainly been through tough times as most of us have. Princess went through a really rough stretch, but like you, she chose to pull herself up by her bootstraps. That very mentality is why America was/is great.

The entitlements in this country are WAY out of hand. People take their time to work the system instead of working their way out of things. My own father has a doctorate, but he lost his job at one time and took a job bagging groceries at Brookshire's to provide for us. I've never been more proud of him in my life. There should never be any embarrassment for supporting your family in any way you can via hard work. (legally of course)...

I do think each case is different, but if you are able to work, you should be required to work. Too many freeloaders are slipping through the cracks...

[Maikeru-sama]

That is why I said "some people" And previously I said I understood for people that have lost everything. And I know from experience that some people use welfare to kick back, watch their cable and eat steak.

Look... this is getting way off the subject and no matter what you will turn what I say or try to paint me an extremist. You don't like me much and thats fine, no skin off my nose. Lets just drop this cuz you and I very rarely see eye to eye and we are just wasting each others time here.

I'm ultra conservative, proud of it, and as hostile put it, I'm hard headed in my thinking. I believe in ultimate personal responsibility and I want the government to stay out of my life as much as possible... all things you don't like - IMO


Yep, when you say that I don't like "ultimate personal responsibilty", then it is a waste of time.

[WoodysGirl]

Just to chime in the last few posts without quoting everybody, but I think you all have very similar views. The differences is determining whether to seek and accept assistance. Ultimately you all are about, in dire times, going out and busting your ***.

Oh and Mick, I know all about Texas unemployment insurance. If you have savings to supplement it, you can make it work. But unemployment insurance alone is a joke. It MIGHT cover a light bill.

[Maikeru-sama]

I do agree that some do need government assistance at times... but it should be very temporary except in a few cases. There are other avenues as well. I know my church makes GREAT efforts to help the poor in my community...

I work for an electric utility and I have helped out with people's bills financially that truly need assistance. I've been blessed and it's the least I can do. Those people DO exist, but I think they are the minority in large part...

You are old school, Mike... you chose to be self sufficient... and I respect that greatly. If Americans aren't putting 10% of everything they make in savings every week, they are doing it wrong. Many in this country CHOOSE to live paycheck to paycheck instead of putting away money for a rainy day. Too many in this country have resources to work even when life deals them a bad hand, but they choose to live off of the rest of us rather than taking a job "flipping burgers"...

I've certainly been through tough times as most of us have. Princess went through a really rough stretch, but like you, she chose to pull herself up by her bootstraps. That very mentality is why America was/is great.

The entitlements in this country are WAY out of hand. People take their time to work the system instead of working their way out of things. My own father has a doctorate, but he lost his job at one time and took a job bagging groceries at Brookshire's to provide for us. I've never been more proud of him in my life. There should never be any embarrassment for supporting your family in any way you can via hard work. (legally of course)...

I do think each case is different, but if you are able to work, you should be required to work. Too many freeloaders are slipping through the cracks...

I agree and disagree with some of what you said.

I kind of got a headache from work :bang2: , so I am kind a tired of arguing but wanted to respond to not be rude :laugh2: .

[CowboyPrincess]

Just to chime in the last few posts without quoting everybody, but I think you all have very similar views. The differences is determining whether to seek and accept assistance. Ultimately you all are about, in dire times, going out and busting your ***.

Oh and Mick, I know all about Texas unemployment insurance. If you have savings to supplement it, you can make it work. But unemployment insurance alone is a joke. It MIGHT cover a light bill.


You are being very generous with that one.. Water bill yes, a TXU light bill - not gonna happen.. LOL

[Mavs Man]

To answer the question... yes.

In 2004 I was working two part time jobs and in my last year of undergrad. Since then, I graduated with two degrees, got married, lived in NY for a year, came back to Texas, moved on to progressively better jobs, and have been able to slowly ramp up a film/video business on the side. So life is much better for me than it was four years ago.

But, this has nothing to do with who is C&C.

[Maikeru-sama]

Just to chime in the last few posts without quoting everybody, but I think you all have very similar views. The differences is determining whether to seek and accept assistance. Ultimately you all are about, in dire times, going out and busting your ***.

Oh and Mick, I know all about Texas unemployment insurance. If you have savings to supplement it, you can make it work. But unemployment insurance alone is a joke. It MIGHT cover a light bill.

Yep.

I found out the hard way.

Got laid off on like a thursday in July right. Then found another job about a month later and started on like a Wednsday. So I was eligible for 4 weeks. Now I had never been laid off, so I had been working 8 years straight since college, so I know I paid alot of taxes into Unemployment.

So I end up only getting 1 weeks worth of pay

The rep said I made too much money the 1st week

He said the 2nd week is held unless you keep filing for unemployment

I got paid for the 3rd week

He said I made too much money the 4h week

Thank God I lived way below my means and saved a ton of money or I would have had to move back in with moms :bang2:

Funny, I ended up quitting that job after 2 1/2 weeks because the manager was a ******. Everyone told me to try to game the system and get unemployment even though I quit.

But I knew one of the consequences of quitting your job was you couldn't get unemployment except in certain situations and I certainly didn't meet any of that. So I just accepted the consequences and just lived on my savings. After being really picky the second time, found a great job a few months later.

So yes, I know there are people that game the system, but I also know that there are people like me out there (it would be arrogant to think I am the only honest guy in the world) that don't and that goes for Welfare too.

[WoodysGirl]

You are being very generous with that one.. Water bill yes, a TXU light bill - not gonna happen.. LOL
I've got Reliant...and I did say "Might." LOL. Man alive, my light bills ate me up this summer. I called and complained to them. How does one person living alone generate such a high light bill? And of course due to Ike, I can't get a meter check. So I'm kinda screwed.

[Hostile]

I apologize for bringing this thread back from the dead. I was remembering how much I enjoyed the debate with VietCowboy and came back to see if she had responded while I was away finalizing my Dad's affairs. I saw the post below.
Sounds like someone I know :)

As to the question posted... I am much better off than I was 4 years ago... much betterIt should because if you look in the mirror you will see the person I was giving such credit to.

Oh, and there is nothing wrong with hard headed.

[VietCowboy]

First of all I have enjoyed this debate with you. I could easily tell you upon which topics I agree with you, but it has been more fun to push your thinking to see if you will crack. A few minor ones that I have no doubt you will seal with experience.

Much better explanation than the other post. You left way too much open for interpretation.

I wasn't cryptic, but I will go with the explanation above and accept this at face value.

Read what you wrote again. It was nowhere near this. I couldn't have drawn this conclusion with a map. I got lucky to even be as close as I was.

I have no opinion on how your professor raised his kids that you would give any credence to anyway, so I shall refrain from sharing.

Apparently not, since you are following your professed party's platform. Or are you unaware that Pro-choice is not the Conservative Republican platform?

Perhaps you think it was the Catholic raising part which would evidence this. I was unaware that Pro-choice was a Catholic platform.

Truth be told, I have yet to see you step outside that party platform on any belief. You can't say the same about me.

Seal the cracks. ;)

I appreciate that. I don't think anyone can tell you what to think or believe, but I do think you are easily swayed by the political line.

In fact I'd bet money on it. Don't take the bet. I have made a fortune proving my point on these bets.

Thank you. You just proved my point about being swayed.

George Bush is not John McCain. You said McCain had not indicated any inclination to fund scientific studies and I named some of them regarding energy that have clearly been a part of his political platform (and both candidates have mentioned them and are the only subjects in the science fields that they are actually discussing). McCain wants to do more than Obama does, and this is backed by the candidate himself.

You skipped right over that to get back to Bush. Feel the swaying of the trees in the winds. Why not call and ask for McCain's stances on those fields of study instead of assigning him a belief because it was Bush's. I mean after all this is what your education taught you to do...you profess. Or was that window dressing to impress me?

English Major, you won't slip double talk past me.

McCain pushing more scientific research in energy than Obama. Not debatable VC.

Okay.

I still don't get how you can mention that as an important topic to you as justification for your vote, yet it isn't how he would vote, but I see the winds again. I know the dizziness will follow. I'll move on and let you seal that crack. ;)

Of course there are. Anyone who doesn't realize this is deluded.

Look the political parties are a joke. A bad joke at that. They only preach what their special interest groups who are funding them tell them to preach and their followers lap it up.

Can you please tell me when in the next 3 months George W. Bush is going to cancel Social Security? I have been dreading that day for 8 years. That scare tactic promise was made to me by the Democratic Party in 2000. Oh, I am a registered Democrat and my wife a registered Republican so we can hear the sales pitches from both sides. How about the overturning of Roe vs. Wade? When in the next 3 months is that happening with the Conservative judges Bush nominated? Same phone call in 2000 as the other scare tactic promise.

Guess what? Those same scare tactics of 2000 are back in 2008. Got the call last week. I could hear the hand wringing and picture the finger nails being swallowed and the Alka Seltzer fizzing in the background.

I'll hear it agian in 2012, 2016, 2020...and so will you. The difference is the weight we give it as evidenced by this thread.

Again, thanks. I am enjoying this debate.

I have no idea what all the democratic or republican platforms are, but I will look them up and see where I fall on their political stances. I can and will bet with you, since I have not looked, that I will find instances where I don't fall according to party line. would you like to make that bet?

[Hostile]

I have no idea what all the democratic or republican platforms are, but I will look them up and see where I fall on their political stances. I can and will bet with you, since I have not looked, that I will find instances where I don't fall according to party line. would you like to make that bet?I'd be shocked, but no, I have no interest in a bet. I would still be interested in where you think you agree with the Conservative or Republican side of the fence.

[DaBoys4Life]

hmm 4 years ago I just graduated HS....now I a massed IDK how much debt in loans and such to pay for college so I would say I'm worse off...once I graduate hopefully I can find a decent job and start paying off lonas and start working to a pay for law school and such.

[Hostile]

hmm 4 years ago I just graduated HS....now I a massed IDK how much debt in loans and such to pay for college so I would say I'm worse off...once I graduate hopefully I can find a decent job and start paying off lonas and start working to a pay for law school and such.141 posts and unless I missed one, this is the first to say he is worse off than 4 years ago.

Yet so many are dissatisfied with the country. Man, we're a spoiled country.

[DaBoys4Life]

141 posts and unless I missed one, this is the first to say he is worse off than 4 years ago.

Yet so many are dissatisfied with the country. Man, we're a spoiled country.

Yea but I guess I will be better off once I get my degree so it's a toss up cowboys game bout 2 start!!!!!!!!! lets go boys!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:bucs:

I invested into my future with college so hopefully I be able to see dividends once I graduate.

[vta]

hmm 4 years ago I just graduated HS....now I a massed IDK how much debt in loans and such to pay for college so I would say I'm worse off...once I graduate hopefully I can find a decent job and start paying off lonas and start working to a pay for law school and such.

141 posts and unless I missed one, this is the first to say he is worse off than 4 years ago.

Yet so many are dissatisfied with the country. Man, we're a spoiled country.

If we're measuring this question from a political/economic aspect, this really isn't a question for someone fresh out of school or still in college.

Of course living under your parents roof while in high school, life is grand. The beginnings of your adult hood, fresh from college is also not any kind of barometer. What do you have to measure your 'success' against? School and the real world? Two totally different aspects of life.

Anyone just out of college or trade school is going to be at the bottom of the workforce chain and hasn't had any experience to say they've succeeded or lost and it has nothing to do with politics, just the facts of life.

[DaBoys4Life]

well I am going to say my Mom is better off now than four years ago. she has a newer car a newer job a better paying job. She has her own place as opposed to us living with my grandmother.

[VietCowboy]

I found a website that has a list of items. I've picked and chosen some to comment on, and if they have been omitted, you will likely find that I agree with it, and have no further comment, or I don't know enough about it to agree or disagree.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Democratic_Party.htm

Keep marriage at state level; no federal gay marriage ban. (Jul 2004) DISAGREE - need to see federal marriage rights for all consenting adult couples regardless if they are hetero- or homosexual
Support affirmative action to redress discrimination. (Jul 2004) DISAGREE - i hate furthering the stereotypes and resentment. We should put support into helping the kids by giving them lots of opportunities, not give them a free pass to a prestigious college/higher education because of the color of their skin. Tax credits and investment support for small business. (Jul 2004) - DISAGREE if we can do flat tax rate with no loopholes

Crack down on gangs and drugs. (Jul 2004) AGREE - but need to make punishment equal. As it stands, those that smoke crack cocaine (i.e. blacks, minorities) receive much harsher punishments than those that just use powder cocaine (i.e. whites). We need to make everyone who uses cocaine, regardless of method receive the same punishment.
Fight crime with prevention, community police. (Aug 2000) AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - prevention is cheaper than intervention, that is a proven fact!
Tougher punishments, including the death penalty. (Aug 2000) AGREE partly for tougher punishment- but i'm against the death penalty only because our judicial system has been somewhat biased on who gets the death penalty as well as the fact that our judicial is not perfect enough to ensure that the innocent will never be convicted.
Standardized tests to advance learning, not bureaucracy. (Jul 2004) AGREE - we've become a nation that is learning how to take tests, not think.
Charter schools OK, vouchers not. (Jul 2004) DISAGREE - i need to see the research on why vouchers don't work. Until then, i'll support vouchers.
Bush broke promise of NCLB by not funding it. (Jul 2004) AGREE - but i hate nclb anyway, because i don't think it works.
Character education is an important aspect of education. (Aug 2000) UNKNOWN - what is character education? I am against teacher-led prayers in school.
Accountability is a key to public school success. (Aug 2000) DEPENDS - i think the key to public school success is more quality teachers (less student:teacher ratio, and more afterschool programs)
Develop renewable energy and efficient vehicles. (Jul 2004) AGREE - but not wind energy unless it becomes more efficient. I read somewhere we would spend more money into building them, and the energy we get out is less than the energy and cost we put in.
Invest in technology & transportation friendly to earth. (Aug 2000) AGREE - hell yeah! i'm huge advocate of using your own two feet or a bike. and for farther places, mass transit. also, make things more accessible to the disabled.
Honor hunting & fishing heritage via more conservation lands. (Jul 2004) DISAGREE - i am against hunting and fishing for sport, but am okay if it is for food.
Expand Family and Medical Leave Law; end marriage penalty. (Aug 2000) AGREE- hell yeah! Moms in some european countries get 2 years leave of absence. I think it doesn't have to be limited to moms. If the mom is working, i think the dad should be able to take a leave of absence, and vice-versa.
Improve child-care and fully fund Head Start. (Aug 2000) AGREE on child-care, but the research on hs has shown that the kids end up no better or worse within a couple of years. I would try something different. But, research does show there is a huge gap between kids from affluent/rich families to those from families who's parents are less educated and poor
Commit to "One China" policy but support Taiwan. (Jul 2004) DISAGREE - i don't like that policy at all and have heard numerous stories on how many families have attempted to ensure they only have one child. I'd rather they increase education on how to prevent pregnancies, not discourage it, often with very shady practices.
Work to close gap between richest and poorest nations. (Aug 2000) This is too vague a statement. i believe in humanitarian efforts, especially to ensure every human being everywhere receive even the most basic of human rights, however it depends on how this will be implemented. Many of the practices we've engaged in the past have done more harm than help, and so it really would depend.
Review all trade agreements; investigate China rights abuses. (Jul 2004) AGREE - things need to be reviewed periodically, especially when new evidence comes to light. We also need to fight against rights abuses worldwide, but need to be respectful of other culture's tradition that we may not agree with, however, still ensure that no tradition violates international human rights.
Free trade with safeguards will benefit all. (Aug 2000) WHAT ARE THESE SAFEGUARDS?
Ensure accessible, independently auditable, accurate voting. (Jul 2004) AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know the federal government needs to limit itself in many places, but i think we should have some sort of procedure that is uniform nationwide. I don't want to hear that in nc, if you don't punch both obama and straight ticket democrat then your vote for the presidential election won't count, then in texas, if you do punch obama and straight ticket, then the presidential election won't count. Let's make it uniform nationwide with ballots and registration so that you can't be fooled by b.s'ing.
Reauthorize assault weapons ban, close gun show loophole. (Jul 2004) I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THIS- i have nothing against those that want to exercise their 2nd amendments, but there needs to be stiffer laws in who can own a gun (at least stiffer laws regarding vetting). I don't know, but i would like to see people, similar to getting a driver's license, take an test to understand gun and gun laws, and have that for different types of guns (i.e. test to drive a commercial vehicle, a motorcycle, etc).
Strengthen gun control to reduce violence. (Aug 2000) AGREE- but who doesn't want to reduce violence? Its a lot of the violence involves those who disobey the laws and obtain guns illegally, so need to make those laws stricter
Make sure everyone has access to affordable health care. (Nov 2006) AGREEAGREEAGREEAGREE - i'm allllll for universal health care (but has to not decrease to lower standard of care)!!
Bush's Medicare Rx program helps companies more than seniors. (Jul 2004) AGREE - but this has to do with special interest. I would like to see pharmaceuticals have stricter laws regarding testing drugs, full disclosure of all testing regardless of the results.
Lead the world by telling truth to our troops & our citizens. (Nov 2006) AGREE - i hate outright lying. If you don't know, tell us you don't know. I'd rather not get any information than to get false information. I'd rather the truth be delayed if it is in the interest of national security or whatever, than to be outright lied to in the beginning.
Path for undocumented aliens to earn citizenship. (Jul 2004) DISAGREE - except for kids who were brought here by their parents. The parents should not be allowed to earn citizenship rights. I feel every foreign adult should come to the us legally.
Every home should have Internet access. (Aug 2000) DISAGREE - especially if parents do not want it. I think the public libraries are sufficient, in fact, we need to make sure that communities allow poor to low-income families have free and easy access to libraries. I'm saying this because i remember living in arkansas, and the public library required me to pay $10 a year because i lived just beyond their zone (even though it was about 2 miles away). That excluded everyone that lived in my apartment complex, in general, those of us very poor. http://www.ontheissues.org/Republican_Party.htm

Things I agree with on the Republican Party Platform. If omitted, that means I disagree with them, or don't know enough to agree or disagree:

Support the advancement of women in the military. (Sep 2004)

Promote school choice and home-schooling. (Sep 2004)
Support voluntary student-initiated prayer in school. (Sep 2004)- if a kids wants to pray in school, and have other kids do it together, that's fine with me. however, i am against it if there is any form of peer pressure or pressure coming from the teacher/student/school to do it. I would consider that a form of hazing if a student has to do it to fit in, or there is some sort of negative connotation for not doing it.
Reduce child welfare caseloads & encourage adoption. (Aug 2000)high underfunded, understaffed, and lots of problems, but I agree with the general idea.
Provide new strategies to help poor nations. (Sep 2004)
Reduce inefficient government, reward results. (Aug 2000)
Reform politics to encourage participation. (Aug 2000) - maybe they should stop trying to disenfranchise so many voters. I agree with the sentiments, but both democrats and republicans will continue to promote things that will benefit them in politics and elections.
Establish minimum safety requirements at chemical plants. (Sep 2004)
Provided Arm Forces better pay, treatment, and training. (Sep 2004)
Cover all basic housing costs for average service members. (Sep 2004)
Increased funding for VA health care. (Sep 2004)YESSSSSSSS!
Reform & toughen immigration system to emphasize family. (Aug 2000)
Focus immigration on needed skills. (Aug 2000)
Support do-not-call and do-not-email lists. (Sep 2004)
Encourage technology with funds for R & D, tax reform. (Aug 2000)
School, libraries should ban porn from their computers. (Aug 2000)
Move more welfare recipients off the welfare rolls. (Sep 2004)- BUT NEED TO FIND PROGRAMS THAT WORK AND CONTINUE IMPLEMENTING THEM, ELIMINATING THINGS THAT DON'T.

--
so , A lot of these things are great on paper and in theory, however, a lot of things will need to be tried out. If it does not work, then find something else that works. This is really long, but this helped me a lot too, so I can see a little better what each platform is based on.

[zrinkill]

School, libraries should ban porn from their computers. (Aug 2000)


How could anyone be against that?

[VietCowboy]

How could anyone be against that?

I realize...a lot of the things are "no duh", of course you would want/support that. :p:

[zrinkill]

I realize...a lot of the things are "no duh", of course you would want/support that. :p:

Huh? ...

[VietCowboy]

Huh? ...

just that a lot of things on both platforms have items that nearly everyone would support. whether or not that is reality is another thing.

[DaBoys4Life]

How could anyone be against that?

the people that want to watch porn while at school/libraries.

I would love to hear your ideas on crime prevention.

[Hostile]

All right VietCowboy, I will openly admit ONE of your answers was shocking to me. On every other one I guessed right which way you'd lean once I figured out how you were explaining.

Care to guess which one answer shocked me? :D

[VietCowboy]

All right VietCowboy, I will openly admit ONE of your answers was shocking to me. On every other one I guessed right which way you'd lean once I figured out how you were explaining.

Care to guess which one answer shocked me? :D

affirmative action??

[Hostile]

affirmative action??Nope. I was still figuring out how you were answering at that early point.

Reauthorize assault weapons ban, close gun show loophole. (Jul 2004) I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THIS- i have nothing against those that want to exercise their 2nd amendments, but there needs to be stiffer laws in who can own a gun (at least stiffer laws regarding vetting). I don't know, but i would like to see people, similar to getting a driver's license, take an test to understand gun and gun laws, and have that for different types of guns (i.e. test to drive a commercial vehicle, a motorcycle, etc).You didn't openly disagree and condemn assault weapons. I was shocked to read that you support the 2nd Amendment. I was not shocked that it has limitations.

I don't disagree with you at all. I am admitting shock at your answer, nothing more.

On all the rest you voted exactly as I would have suspected. Still think aren't very left of center? ;)

[jimmy40]

No, I had a full head of hair 4 years ago. Damn that George Bush.

[Hostile]

No, I had a full head of hair 4 years ago. Damn that George Bush.
I chuckled when I read this. My wife asked me what was so funny. So I told her the thread premise and read her your post. She loved it.