AP Poll: It's a Deadheat

[Bach]

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D93VM4PO0&show_article=1

WASHINGTON (AP) - The presidential race tightened after the final debate, with John McCain gaining among whites and people earning less than $50,000, according to an Associated Press-GfK poll that shows McCain and Barack Obama essentially running even among likely voters in the election homestretch.
The poll, which found Obama at 44 percent and McCain at 43 percent, supports what some Republicans and Democrats privately have said in recent days: that the race narrowed after the third debate as GOP-leaning voters drifted home to their party and McCain's "Joe the plumber" analogy struck a chord.

Three weeks ago, an AP-GfK survey found that Obama had surged to a seven-point lead over McCain, lifted by voters who thought the Democrat was better suited to lead the nation through its sudden economic crisis.

The contest is still volatile, and the split among voters is apparent less than two weeks before Election Day.

"I trust McCain more, and I do feel that he has more experience in government than Obama. I don't think Obama has been around long enough," said Angela Decker, 44, of La Porte, Ind.

But Karen Judd, 58, of Middleton, Wis., said, "Obama certainly has sufficient qualifications." She said any positive feelings about McCain evaporated with "the outright lying" in TV ads and his choice of running mate Sarah Palin, who "doesn't have the correct skills."

The new AP-GfK head-to-head result is a departure from some, but not all, recent national polls.

Obama and McCain were essentially tied among likely voters in the latest George Washington University Battleground Poll, conducted by Republican strategist Ed Goeas and Democratic pollster Celinda Lake. In other surveys focusing on likely voters, a Washington Post-ABC News poll showed Obama up by 9 percentage points, while a poll by the nonpartisan Pew Research Center had Obama leading by 14. A Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll, among the broader category of people registered to vote, found Obama ahead by 10 points.

Polls are snapshots of highly fluid campaigns. In this case, there is a margin of error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points; that means Obama could be ahead by as many as 8 points or down by as many as 6. There are many reasons why polls differ, including methods of estimating likely voters and the wording of questions.

Charles Franklin, a University of Wisconsin political science professor and polling authority, said variation between polls occurs, in part, because pollsters interview random samples of people.

"If they all agree, somebody would be doing something terribly wrong," he said of polls. But he also said that surveys generally fall within a few points of each other, adding, "When you get much beyond that, there's something to explain."

The AP-GfK survey included interviews with a large sample of adults including 800 deemed likely to vote. Among all 1,101 adults interviewed, the survey showed Obama ahead 47 percent to 37 percent. He was up by five points among registered voters.

A significant number of the interviews were conducted by dialing a randomly selected sample of cell phone numbers, and thus this poll had a chance to reach voters who were excluded from some other polls.

It was taken over five days from Thursday through Monday, starting the night after the candidates' final debate and ending the day after former Secretary of State Colin Powell broke with the Republican Party to endorse Obama.

McCain's strong showing is partly attributable to his strong debate performance; Thursday was his best night of the survey. Obama's best night was Sunday, hours after the Powell announcement, and the full impact of that endorsement may not have been captured in any surveys yet. Future polling could show whether either of those was merely a support "bounce" or something more lasting.

During their final debate, a feisty McCain repeatedly forced Obama to defend his record, comments and associations. He also used the story of a voter whom the Democrat had met in Ohio, "Joe the plumber," to argue that Obama's tax plan would be bad for working class voters.

"I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody," Obama told the man with the last name of Wurzelbacher, who had asked Obama whether his plan to increase taxes on those earning more than $250,000 a year would impede his ability to buy the plumbing company where he works.

On Wednesday, McCain's campaign unveiled a new TV ad that features that Obama quote, and shows different people saying: "I'm Joe the plumber." A man asks: "Obama wants my sweat to pay for his trillion dollars in new spending?"

Since McCain has seized on that line of argument, he has picked up support among white married people and non-college educated whites, the poll shows, while widening his advantage among white men. Black voters still overwhelmingly support Obama.

The Republican also has improved his rating for handling the economy and the financial crisis. Nearly half of likely voters think their taxes will rise under an Obama administration compared with a third who say McCain would raise their taxes.

Since the last AP-GfK survey in late September, McCain also has:

_Posted big gains among likely voters earning under $50,000 a year; he now trails Obama by just 4 percentage points compared with 26 earlier.

_Surged among rural voters; he has an 18-point advantage, up from 4.

_Doubled his advantage among whites who haven't finished college and now leads by 20 points. McCain and Obama are running about even among white college graduates, no change from earlier.

_Made modest gains among whites of both genders, now leading by 22 points among white men and by 7 among white women.

_Improved slightly among whites who are married, now with a 24-point lead.

_Narrowed a gap among unmarried whites, though he still trails by 8 points.

McCain has cut into Obama's advantage on the questions of whom voters trust to handle the economy and the financial crisis. On both, the Democrat now leads by just 6 points, compared with 15 in the previous survey.

Obama still has a larger advantage on other economic measures, with 44 percent saying they think the economy will have improved a year from now if he is elected compared with 34 percent for McCain.

Intensity has increased among McCain's supporters.

A month ago, Obama had more strong supporters than McCain did. Now, the number of excited supporters is about even.

Eight of 10 Democrats are supporting Obama, while nine in 10 Republicans are backing McCain. Independents are about evenly split.

Some 24 percent of likely voters were deemed still persuadable, meaning they were either undecided or said they might switch candidates. Those up-for-grabs voters came about equally from the three categories: undecideds, McCain supporters and Obama backers.

Said John Ormesher, 67, of Dandridge, Tenn.: "I've got respect for them but that's the extent of it. I don't have a whole lot of affinity toward either one of them. They're both part of the same political mess."

___

[MilesAustinforMVP]

FOX News Poll: Obama Grabs Nine Point Lead Over McCain

Wednesday, October 22, 2008
By Dana Blanton
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Less than two weeks before Election Day, Barack Obama leads John McCain 49 percent to 40 percent among likely voters, according to a FOX News poll released Wednesday.
Obama's advantage comes mainly from independents, and from the fact that more voters identify themselves as Democrats these days and almost all of them back their party's nominee.
Eighty-eight percent of Democrats support Obama, and 83 percent of Republicans back McCain. Independents break 44 percent to 35 percent in Obama's favor.
In addition to independents, white Catholics are another important swing voting group and they support Obama 50 percent to 39 percent. White Catholics have voted for the winner in each of the last four presidential elections.
New voters — people who have registered to vote in the last two years — back Obama by 51 percent to 40 percent.
A FOX News poll published Oct. 10 among registered voters found Obama leading McCain by seven points, 46 percent to 39 percent.
Obama is seen as the candidate who will bring the right kind of change to Washington, and more voters trust him to handle the major economic problems facing the country right now. By a double-digit margin voters think Obama 's tax plan would do more to improve their family's financial situation.
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/**/
Turning to McCain's strengths, slightly more voters think the United States will be safer if he is president, and he is seen as the candidate more likely to reach across the aisle and work with the other party.
McCain's clearest advantage is on experience: A large 80 percent majority says McCain has the right experience to be president. Some 52 percent say Obama has the right experience and 45 percent disagree.
In a question aimed at a gut level assessment of the character and judgment of each candidate, voters split when asked who they would go to for advice if they had to make the toughest decision of their life: Obama 45 percent and McCain 41 percent.
Similarly, the results are divided — Obama 47 percent and McCain 43 percent — on the question of "which candidate do you trust more?"
On both of these measures, independent voters are almost evenly split between the two candidates — they give a two-point edge to Obama on the toughest decision measure and a one-point edge to McCain on trust.
Former Secretary of State Colin Powell endorsed Obama on Sunday. Overall, 35 percent say Powell's endorsement makes them more likely to vote for Obama, 25 percent less likely and 37 percent no difference.
Among the highly sought-after group of independent voters the results are essentially the same, as 32 percent say the endorsement makes them more likely to vote for Obama, 22 percent less likely and 43 percent no difference.
Did Powell, a Republican, sway Republican voters with his endorsement? Fifteen percent say it makes them more likely to vote for Obama, 44 percent less likely and 40 percent no difference.
Opinion Dynamics Corp. conducted the national telephone poll of 900 likely voters for FOX News from October 20 to October 21. The poll has a 3-point error margin. "Likely voters" are registered voters who are considered more likely to vote in the November presidential election.
Among voters who say the economy is "extremely important" to their vote for president — Obama has a 56 percent to 34 percent advantage, and by a 64 percent to 25 percent who say the same of health care.
McCain has a 47 percent - 41 percent edge among people who say terrorism is extremely important. Those saying appointments to the U.S. Supreme Court are extremely important in their decision back McCain 47 percent and Obama 45 percent.
Should Government Use Taxes to "Spread the Wealth"?
In a conversation with "Joe the plumber" about his tax plan, Obama said "when you spread the wealth around it's good for everybody." Americans are evenly divided on the idea: 45 percent think it is a good idea and 46 percent a bad idea to use some of the money government collects in taxes to "spread the wealth" to others who are less well off.
Most Democrats think spreading the wealth is a good idea (66 percent) and most Republicans think it is a bad idea (72 percent). Independents split 47 percent good idea and 41 percent bad.
Voters are much more decisive on freezing government spending to get the federal budget under control: 63 percent think that is a good idea and 29 percent a bad idea. McCain has said he will "freeze government spending on all but the most important programs," such as defense, veterans care and Social Security.
Three times as many voters think "cutting taxes" (60 percent) is more likely to stimulate the economy and get the country out of recession than think "increasing government spending on programs" will help the economy recover (20 percent).
Just over half of Americans expect the recession to be either mild (11 percent) or moderate (41 percent), while about one third (35 percent) think it will be a severe recession. Fewer than 1 in 10 voters think there will be an economic depression (9 percent).

[trickblue]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/cowboyszone/billboards/surveyed.jpg

[Danny White]

When will people realize that the national poll is about as meaningful to the outcome of the election as the Power Rankings are to who will win the Super Bowl?

[BrAinPaiNt]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/cowboyszone/billboards/surveyed.jpg

:laugh2: :laugh2: Nice

[MilesAustinforMVP]

Obama is still going to win and there is nothing you can do about it.

[Bach]

* Obamabots start sweating *

[jimnabby]

There are at least 12 national polls that report results from as late as 10/20 or 10/21. The results are:

Obama +9
Obama +6
Obama +10
Obama +5
Obama +8
Obama +5
Obama +4
Obama +10
Obama +9
Obama +2
Obama +1
Obama +8

The last 3 are the only ones that include data from as early as 10/15 or 10/16 - the others all start either on 10/17, 10/19 or 10/20.

The data appears consistent with the idea that McCain was gaining ground last week, but that tightening is over with and the race started opening up again this past weekend. The data also appears consistent with the idea that Obama has at least a 5 point lead in this race.

[Rowdy]

Obama is still going to win and there is nothing you can do about it.

If Obama loses, will you show up?

[MilesAustinforMVP]

If Obama loses, will you show up?
sure will, but I sincerely doubt that is going to happen

[cowboys#1]

im sorry but the race is over...


have you seen the voter turnout? people say its the biggest turnout they have seen.


most of those are newly registered democratic voters. mccain has no chance. ;)

[Doomsday101]

im sorry but the race is over...


have you seen the voter turnout? people say its the biggest turnout they have seen.


most of those are newly registered democratic voters. mccain has no chance. ;)

Well I think I'll go cast my vote on Nov 4th if that is alright with you.

[Bach]

im sorry but the race is over...

have you seen the voter turnout? people say its the biggest turnout they have seen.

most of those are newly registered democratic voters. mccain has no chance. ;)


I wonder how many times they'll let those who registered 72 times actually vote though.

[cowboys#1]

Well I think I'll go cast my vote on Nov 4th if that is alright with you.
i havent voted yet ....i will on friday. of course its alright with me. if you like the way the country is going right now mccain is your man. :geezer:

[cowboys#1]

I wonder how many times they'll let those who registered 72 times actually vote though.
i actually agree with you on that. i think acorn needs account for every fake registration so this election can be fair.

[Doomsday101]

i havent voted yet ....i will on friday. of course its alright with me. if you like the way the country is going right now mccain is your man. :geezer:

I'm doing just fine thank you then again I'm capable of making my own money without any help from Government. What I expect from my Government is to provide for the national defense. If I had my way we keep it at that and allow each state to govern themselves. As for McCain age, I'm less concerned with a man of experiance than a guy who has done little and has much less experiance

[MilesAustinforMVP]

I wonder how many times they'll let those who registered 72 times actually vote though.

Ugh... This is why ignorance of our electoral process is bad. I can go out and register a million times, but you know what? Only the last one will count.

What you had was ACORN employees are paid per registration, so they cut corners and registered someone multiple times, or they wrote in fake names to get a bigger pay check. Moreover, ACORN flagged all of these names before they gave them to the election officials, which is why the Supreme Court ruled in favor of ACORN a few days ago.

Don't believe the Republican propaganda.

[avaj]

Nov. 4th will settle it all ;)

[BrAinPaiNt]

* Obamabots start sweating *

If Obamabots are sweating....McCainiacs must be crapping themselves.

[MilesAustinforMVP]

I'm doing just fine thank you then again I'm capable of making my own money without any help from Government. What I expect from my Government is to provide for the national defense. If I had my way we keep it at that and allow each state to govern themselves. As for McCain age, I'm less concerned with a man of experiance than a guy who has done little and has much less experiance
Like I said in a previous post, I would rather vote for some who is probably a genius, being that he graduated Magna Cum Lade from Harvard Law, rather than a dim wit like McCain who finished in the bottom 5 out of 899 people in his Naval Academy class. Furthermore he only got into the Naval Academy because his father and grandfather were admirals.

Basically, I'm sick of retards running our country.

[jimnabby]

Ugh... This is why ignorance of our electoral process is bad. I can go out and register a million times, but you know what? Only the last one will count.

What you had was ACORN employees are paid per registration, so they cut corners and registered someone multiple times, or they wrote in fake names to get a bigger pay check. Moreover, ACORN flagged all of these names before they gave them to the election officials, which is why the Supreme Court ruled in favor of ACORN a few days ago.

Don't believe the Republican propaganda.

Thanks for that. Virtually all the false registrations that have been waved about had ALREADY been flagged by ACORN as suspect. They're required by law to submit all the forms they get, so they couldn't prune them out - they could only flag them, which they did. Could they tighten up their procedures? I'm sure they could. Is this even the tiniest shred of evidence for the mythical 'voter fraud' we've been warned about? No.

[Doomsday101]

Like I said in a previous post, I would rather vote for some who is probably a genius, being that he graduated Magna Cum Lade from Harvard Law, rather than a dim wit like McCain who finished in the bottom 5 out of 899 people in his Naval Academy class. Furthermore he only got into the Naval Academy because his father and grandfather were admirals.

Basically, I'm sick of retards running our country.

I'm sure he would make a great lawyer, that does not make him a leader.

[MilesAustinforMVP]

I'm sure he would make a great lawyer, that does not make him a leader.
Maybe, but you literally have to be a genius to get into Harvard Law. I had a casual friend with a 3.9 GPA and a 170 LSAT and she still didn't get into Harvard. That should tell you about the pool of talent in that school. And since everything is curved in Law school, to get in the top 10% amongst that pool of incredible intellect would mean he must have close to genius IQ, which was my point.

[Doomsday101]

Maybe, but you literally have to be a genius to get into Harvard Law. I had a casual friend with a 3.9 GPA and a 170 LSAT and she still didn't get into Harvard. That should tell you about the pool of talent in that school. And since everything is curved in Law school, to get in the top 10% amongst that pool of incredible intellect would mean he must have close to genius IQ, which was my point.

Oh my don't soil yourself with all the gushing. You are impressed I get that I acknowledge the man is bright but that does not make one a leader and I have not see qualities of a leader. He goes to a church and lies about not having heard these comments in the 20 some odd years he attended? and when things got hot he turned his back on them anyone or anything of his past is thrown to the side for political points? Say what you will about McCain but when the war was going bad he stuck to his guns even when those around him told him it would cost him politically he stood by his principles. I consider McCain more of a leader than Obama will ever be.

[JRid21]

Like I said in a previous post, I would rather vote for some who is probably a genius, being that he graduated Magna Cum Lade from Harvard Law, rather than a dim wit like McCain who finished in the bottom 5 out of 899 people in his Naval Academy class. Furthermore he only got into the Naval Academy because his father and grandfather were admirals.

Basically, I'm sick of retards running our country.


My only question is why won't Barack release his grades? Wayne Allan Root was a classmate of Barack Obama's at Columbia and has said countless times he would bet a million dollars that he made better grades than Barack.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2076052/posts

Welch: Were you the exact same class?


Root: Class of '83 political science, pre-law Columbia University. You don't get more exact than that. Never met him in my life, don't know anyone who ever met him. At the class reunion, our 20th reunion five years ago, 20th reunion, who was asked to be the speaker of the class? Me. No one ever heard of Barack! Who was he, and five years ago, nobody even knew who he was.



Other guy: Did he even show up to the reunion?


Root: I don't know! I didn't know him. I don't think anybody knew him. But I know that the guy who writes the class notes, who's kind of the, as we say in New York, the macha who knows everybody, has yet to find a person, a human who ever met him. Is that not strange? It's very strange.



Welch: That's peculiar! Do you have any theories?


Root: Don't have any theories. I don't know. Don't know why. Kept to himself.... The only thing I could even imagine is that he talks in his biographies about being, you know, his identity crisis, his "am I black or am I white?" He chose black. And he hung out with a couple of black kids and never went near anybody and his wife? That's the only thing I can think of. All my buddies are white, what can I tell

you! They don't know him, nobody's ever seen him, I don't know what to tell you.
Other guy: That's the era.


Root: That's the era. I mean, when I went to Columbia, the black kids were all at like tables going "Black Power!" We used to walk by and go, "What the hell are they talking about." And they didn't associate with us and we didn't associate with them. So if you track down a couple of black students, they'll probably know him. But nobody white's ever heard of this guy. It's quite amazing. Nobody remembers him. They don't remember him sitting in class.


Welch: Black power in '83?


Root: Ha ha. That's Columbia. Colubmia's radical, always was. There was gay power over here, and pot power over here, and black power over there, and Hispanic power over here, and feminism.


Welch: And what was your power?


Root: Oh I was the bookie guy, don't worry about it.... But here's the story that I think the press should be digging up, I really mean this, about Barack Obama. When George Bush annoyed everyone the first thing they went to was how dumb he was, and they said how bad he did in Yale, and blah blah blah, he got a C average. Then they found his C average was better than Al Gore's average, and

it was better than John Kerry's average!


Cavanaugh: And then you stopped hearing the story.


Root: Right. But the point is all three of them had C averages. I had a B-plus, A-minus average at Columbia University.


Welch: Wait, you're bragging on your GPA?


Root: No, no I'm not, because here's the moral to the story.... I had a B-plus, A-minus average at Columbia University, in four years. When I graduated, I took the LSATs and I did well. I didn't do great, I did well; B-plus, A-minus average. My counselor at Columbia said don't even bother applying to Harvard Law School, because you can get into any law school in the country with your record, except Columbia, Harvard, Stanford, Princeton [Editor's Note: Princeton doesn't have a law school]. Except for the very top, you can get in anywhere, but don't even try those, because your grades don't cut it.
Well, everyone says how bright Barack is, but Barack won't release his transcripts from Columbia University.


Cavanaugh: Hmmmm.


Root: And I'd be willing to bet every dime I have in the world, a million dollars I'll put, I'll put a million dollars cash on the fact—


Welch: This is on the record—


Root: —that my GPA was better than Barack's—


Welch: Oooooh.


Root: ...and he got in based on the color of his skin.
Does anyone doubt that possibly Barack could have gotten into Harvard with a C average because he's black, where as I, white, couldn't get into the same school with a B-plus, A-minus average? And yet his wife says that America is a terrible nation unfair to minorities! I say, Au contraire!


Also in response of a genius/intelligent man running our country here is an article for you: http://blogs.wsj.com/informedreader/2007/06/18/a-possible-reason-why-dumber-presidents-do-better/
The most intelligent presidents in U.S. history haven’t necessarily excelled in the job, and their brain power might be the culprit, says U.S. Circuit Judge Richard Posner. Intelligence actually can be a disadvantage in positions of authority, says Mr. Posner on his blog, which he co-writes with economist Gary Becker. “Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower and Ronald Reagan were not as bright as Herbert Hoover, Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter or Bill Clinton,” he says, but nevertheless were better presidents. Even presidents remarkable for the intellectual caliber of their senior advisers can stumble badly — as Lyndon Johnson and John F. Kennedy did in Vietnam. Extreme intelligence might undermine a person’s managerial capacity, he speculates. “What is required at the top levels of government is not brilliance, but managerial skill,” says Mr. Posner. That includes knowing “when to defer to the superior knowledge of a more experienced but less mentally agile subordinate.”
Especially intelligent people also have difficulty trusting the intuitions of less-articulate people who have more experience than they do. That might be why many smart senior officials in government have tried to reason their way through problems on their own, assuming their civil servants’ inadequate explanations rendered their judgments invalid.
Furthermore, many of the situations that presidents face are defined by uncertainty, rather than complexity. In cases such as Vietnam, where presidents and their inner circle were dealing with an ambiguous situation, “having great information-processing skills is not worth a lot if you have no reliable information.” Mr. Posner’s sparring partner, Mr. Becker, agrees. The economist adds that the difficulties that highly intelligent people face in leadership positions might explain “why voters, as opposed to intellectuals, typically do not weight heavily the ‘IQ’ of presidential candidates in choosing whom to vote for.”
Abraham Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt are Mr. Posner’s examples of exceptions to his less-bright-is-more-effective rule, both of them brilliant minds and brilliant leaders. Can you come up with other exceptions? –Robin Moroney

[Bach]

Maybe, but you literally have to be a genius to get into Harvard Law.

Not when you are like Obama and have connections like Khalid al-Mansour

[DaBoys4Life]

nice thread Good read

go Cowboys!!!

[MilesAustinforMVP]

My only question is why won't Barack release his grades? Wayne Allan Root was a classmate of Barack Obama's at Columbia and has said countless times he would bet a million dollars that he made better grades than Barack.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2076052/posts

Also in response of a genius/intelligent man running our country here is an article for you: http://blogs.wsj.com/informedreader/2007/06/18/a-possible-reason-why-dumber-presidents-do-better/
The most intelligent presidents in U.S. history haven’t necessarily excelled in the job, and their brain power might be the culprit, says U.S. Circuit Judge Richard Posner. Intelligence actually can be a disadvantage in positions of authority, says Mr. Posner on his blog, which he co-writes with economist Gary Becker. “Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower and Ronald Reagan were not as bright as Herbert Hoover, Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter or Bill Clinton,” he says, but nevertheless were better presidents. Even presidents remarkable for the intellectual caliber of their senior advisers can stumble badly — as Lyndon Johnson and John F. Kennedy did in Vietnam. Extreme intelligence might undermine a person’s managerial capacity, he speculates. “What is required at the top levels of government is not brilliance, but managerial skill,” says Mr. Posner. That includes knowing “when to defer to the superior knowledge of a more experienced but less mentally agile subordinate.”
Especially intelligent people also have difficulty trusting the intuitions of less-articulate people who have more experience than they do. That might be why many smart senior officials in government have tried to reason their way through problems on their own, assuming their civil servants’ inadequate explanations rendered their judgments invalid.
Furthermore, many of the situations that presidents face are defined by uncertainty, rather than complexity. In cases such as Vietnam, where presidents and their inner circle were dealing with an ambiguous situation, “having great information-processing skills is not worth a lot if you have no reliable information.” Mr. Posner’s sparring partner, Mr. Becker, agrees. The economist adds that the difficulties that highly intelligent people face in leadership positions might explain “why voters, as opposed to intellectuals, typically do not weight heavily the ‘IQ’ of presidential candidates in choosing whom to vote for.”
Abraham Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt are Mr. Posner’s examples of exceptions to his less-bright-is-more-effective rule, both of them brilliant minds and brilliant leaders. Can you come up with other exceptions? –Robin Moroney

He graduated Magna Cum Lade from Harvard Law. And according to Harvard Law school's website (http://www.law.harvard.edu/ocs/employers/HLS_Grading_System.htm) you can only graduate Magna Cum Lade if you are in the top 10%. So I would have to imagine he had rather good grades.

Dwight Eisenhower was an above average president. Nothing special. And Ronald Reagan was pretty awful. His economic policies led to the recession in the late 80's and early 90's and indirectly led to what we are experiencing today. Moreover, he allowed weapons to be sold to a nation that sponsors terrorism.

Back to the topic at hand. I'm sick of retards like Bush running our country.

[MilesAustinforMVP]

Not when you are like Obama and have connections like Khalid al-Mansour

Alright (I roll my eyes), but once he was there he excelled and graduated in the top 10% of the class, a class that probably consisted mostly of people with close to genius level IQ's.

[JRid21]

He graduated Magna Cum Lade from Harvard Law. And according to Harvard Law school's website (http://www.law.harvard.edu/ocs/employers/HLS_Grading_System.htm) you can only graduate Magna Cum Lade if you are in the top 10%. So I would have to imagine he had rather good grades.

Dwight Eisenhower was an above average president. Nothing special. And Ronald Reagan was pretty awful. His economic policies led to the recession in the late 80's and early 90's and indirectly led to what we are experiencing today. Moreover, he allowed weapons to be sold to a nation that sponsors terrorism.

Back to the topic at hand. I'm sick of retards like Bush running our country.

Read the article I posted about Wayne Allan Root, well the parts of the interview I posted. I'm not denying that he had great success at Harvard, what I am questioning is how he got there and based off the article I posted he had some help getting there.

[MilesAustinforMVP]

Oh my don't soil yourself with all the gushing. You are impressed I get that I acknowledge the man is bright but that does not make one a leader and I have not see qualities of a leader. He goes to a church and lies about not having heard these comments in the 20 some odd years he attended? and when things got hot he turned his back on them anyone or anything of his past is thrown to the side for political points? Say what you will about McCain but when the war was going bad he stuck to his guns even when those around him told him it would cost him politically he stood by his principles. I consider McCain more of a leader than Obama will ever be.
Obama has always been against the war. Even when it was popular, so whats your point? McCain is so retarded he still can't see that it was a huge mistake?

[JRid21]

Obama has always been against the war. Even when it was popular, so whats your point? McCain is so retarded he still can't see that it was a huge mistake?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwoKiULlPbk

Watch whole video

[Danny White]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwoKiULlPbk

Watch whole video

Here you go:

FwoKiULlPbk

[MilesAustinforMVP]

Here you go:

FwoKiULlPbk
Whats your point? He SUSPECTED he MIGHT have been wrong. And AT THIS STAGE there is not much difference in position.

So he doubted himself initially. You can still doubt yourself and believe the war is wrong. It just means he wasn't 100% sure. Obama is not so blind that he thinks he is always right. He nevertheless ended being proven right.

Moreover, he said at a certain stage of the war he would carry out the same policy as Bush. That didn't necessarily mean that he thought the War was right. Or that he necessarily agreed with his policy in an early stage of the war or a later stage of the war.

You are basically cherry picking quotes that SORT OF fit your argument, but really don't to make it sound like Obama thought the Iraq War was the right thing to do. But anyone who actually has any sort of reading comprehension ability can see that is not what he said or meant.

[Beast_from_East]

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D93VM4PO0&show_article=1

WASHINGTON (AP) - The presidential race tightened after the final debate, with John McCain gaining among whites and people earning less than $50,000, according to an Associated Press-GfK poll that shows McCain and Barack Obama essentially running even among likely voters in the election homestretch.
The poll, which found Obama at 44 percent and McCain at 43 percent, supports what some Republicans and Democrats privately have said in recent days: that the race narrowed after the third debate as GOP-leaning voters drifted home to their party and McCain's "Joe the plumber" analogy struck a chord.

Three weeks ago, an AP-GfK survey found that Obama had surged to a seven-point lead over McCain, lifted by voters who thought the Democrat was better suited to lead the nation through its sudden economic crisis.

The contest is still volatile, and the split among voters is apparent less than two weeks before Election Day.

"I trust McCain more, and I do feel that he has more experience in government than Obama. I don't think Obama has been around long enough," said Angela Decker, 44, of La Porte, Ind.

But Karen Judd, 58, of Middleton, Wis., said, "Obama certainly has sufficient qualifications." She said any positive feelings about McCain evaporated with "the outright lying" in TV ads and his choice of running mate Sarah Palin, who "doesn't have the correct skills."

The new AP-GfK head-to-head result is a departure from some, but not all, recent national polls.

Obama and McCain were essentially tied among likely voters in the latest George Washington University Battleground Poll, conducted by Republican strategist Ed Goeas and Democratic pollster Celinda Lake. In other surveys focusing on likely voters, a Washington Post-ABC News poll showed Obama up by 9 percentage points, while a poll by the nonpartisan Pew Research Center had Obama leading by 14. A Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll, among the broader category of people registered to vote, found Obama ahead by 10 points.

Polls are snapshots of highly fluid campaigns. In this case, there is a margin of error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points; that means Obama could be ahead by as many as 8 points or down by as many as 6. There are many reasons why polls differ, including methods of estimating likely voters and the wording of questions.

Charles Franklin, a University of Wisconsin political science professor and polling authority, said variation between polls occurs, in part, because pollsters interview random samples of people.

"If they all agree, somebody would be doing something terribly wrong," he said of polls. But he also said that surveys generally fall within a few points of each other, adding, "When you get much beyond that, there's something to explain."

The AP-GfK survey included interviews with a large sample of adults including 800 deemed likely to vote. Among all 1,101 adults interviewed, the survey showed Obama ahead 47 percent to 37 percent. He was up by five points among registered voters.

A significant number of the interviews were conducted by dialing a randomly selected sample of cell phone numbers, and thus this poll had a chance to reach voters who were excluded from some other polls.

It was taken over five days from Thursday through Monday, starting the night after the candidates' final debate and ending the day after former Secretary of State Colin Powell broke with the Republican Party to endorse Obama.

McCain's strong showing is partly attributable to his strong debate performance; Thursday was his best night of the survey. Obama's best night was Sunday, hours after the Powell announcement, and the full impact of that endorsement may not have been captured in any surveys yet. Future polling could show whether either of those was merely a support "bounce" or something more lasting.

During their final debate, a feisty McCain repeatedly forced Obama to defend his record, comments and associations. He also used the story of a voter whom the Democrat had met in Ohio, "Joe the plumber," to argue that Obama's tax plan would be bad for working class voters.

"I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody," Obama told the man with the last name of Wurzelbacher, who had asked Obama whether his plan to increase taxes on those earning more than $250,000 a year would impede his ability to buy the plumbing company where he works.

On Wednesday, McCain's campaign unveiled a new TV ad that features that Obama quote, and shows different people saying: "I'm Joe the plumber." A man asks: "Obama wants my sweat to pay for his trillion dollars in new spending?"

Since McCain has seized on that line of argument, he has picked up support among white married people and non-college educated whites, the poll shows, while widening his advantage among white men. Black voters still overwhelmingly support Obama.

The Republican also has improved his rating for handling the economy and the financial crisis. Nearly half of likely voters think their taxes will rise under an Obama administration compared with a third who say McCain would raise their taxes.

Since the last AP-GfK survey in late September, McCain also has:

_Posted big gains among likely voters earning under $50,000 a year; he now trails Obama by just 4 percentage points compared with 26 earlier.

_Surged among rural voters; he has an 18-point advantage, up from 4.

_Doubled his advantage among whites who haven't finished college and now leads by 20 points. McCain and Obama are running about even among white college graduates, no change from earlier.

_Made modest gains among whites of both genders, now leading by 22 points among white men and by 7 among white women.

_Improved slightly among whites who are married, now with a 24-point lead.

_Narrowed a gap among unmarried whites, though he still trails by 8 points.

McCain has cut into Obama's advantage on the questions of whom voters trust to handle the economy and the financial crisis. On both, the Democrat now leads by just 6 points, compared with 15 in the previous survey.

Obama still has a larger advantage on other economic measures, with 44 percent saying they think the economy will have improved a year from now if he is elected compared with 34 percent for McCain.

Intensity has increased among McCain's supporters.

A month ago, Obama had more strong supporters than McCain did. Now, the number of excited supporters is about even.

Eight of 10 Democrats are supporting Obama, while nine in 10 Republicans are backing McCain. Independents are about evenly split.

Some 24 percent of likely voters were deemed still persuadable, meaning they were either undecided or said they might switch candidates. Those up-for-grabs voters came about equally from the three categories: undecideds, McCain supporters and Obama backers.

Said John Ormesher, 67, of Dandridge, Tenn.: "I've got respect for them but that's the extent of it. I don't have a whole lot of affinity toward either one of them. They're both part of the same political mess."

___

Yea, it is tied.

And if you guys believe that I have a bridge to nowhere to sell you.

Why would McCain be pulling out of states right and left and not contesting a single blue state if this thing was tied???

No way in hell do I believe this poll is legit, but if you guys want to pretend the race is tied, go ahead.

[irvin88]

Poll Shows Presidential Race a Dead Heat After Final DebateA new poll from The Associated Press shows Barack Obama and John McCain practically tied among likely voters.

WASHINGTON -- The presidential race tightened after the final debate, with John McCain gaining among whites and people earning less than $50,000, according to an Associated Press-GfK poll that shows McCain and Barack Obama essentially running even among likely voters in the election homestretch.

The poll, which found Obama at 44 percent and McCain at 43 percent, supports what some Republicans and Democrats privately have said in recent days: that the race narrowed after the third debate as GOP-leaning voters drifted home to their party and McCain's "Joe the plumber" analogy struck a chord.

Three weeks ago, an AP-GfK survey found that Obama had surged to a seven-point lead over McCain, lifted by voters who thought the Democrat was better suited to lead the nation through its sudden economic crisis.

The contest is still volatile, and the split among voters is apparent less than two weeks before Election Day.

The AP-GfK survey included interviews with a large sample of adults including 800 deemed likely to vote. Among all 1,101 adults interviewed, the survey showed Obama ahead 47 percent to 37 percent. He was up by five points among registered voters.

A significant number of the interviews were conducted by dialing a randomly selected sample of cell phone numbers, and thus this poll had a chance to reach voters who were excluded from some other polls.

"I trust McCain more, and I do feel that he has more experience in government than Obama. I don't think Obama has been around long enough," said Angela Decker, 44, of La Porte, Ind.

But Karen Judd, 58, of Middleton, Wis., said, "Obama certainly has sufficient qualifications." She said any positive feelings about McCain evaporated with "the outright lying" in TV ads and his choice of running mate Sarah Palin, who "doesn't have the correct skills."

The new AP-GfK head-to-head result is a departure from some, but not all, recent national polls.

Obama and McCain were essentially tied among likely voters in the latest George Washington University Battleground Poll, conducted by Republican strategist Ed Goeas and Democratic pollster Celinda Lake. In other surveys focusing on likely voters, a Washington Post-ABC News poll showed Obama up by 9 percentage points, while a poll by the nonpartisan Pew Research Center had Obama leading by 14. A Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll, among the broader category of people registered to vote, found Obama ahead by 10 points.

Polls are snapshots of highly fluid campaigns. In this case, there is a margin of error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points; that means Obama could be ahead by as many as 8 points or down by as many as 6. There are many reasons why polls differ, including methods of estimating likely voters and the wording of questions.

Charles Franklin, a University of Wisconsin political science professor and polling authority, said variation between polls occurs, in part, because pollsters interview random samples of people.

"If they all agree, somebody would be doing something terribly wrong," he said of polls. But he also said that surveys generally fall within a few points of each other, adding, "When you get much beyond that, there's something to explain."

The AP poll was taken over five days from Thursday through Monday, starting the night after the candidates' final debate and ending the day after former Secretary of State Colin Powell broke with the Republican Party to endorse Obama.

McCain's strong showing is partly attributable to his strong debate performance; Thursday was his best night of the survey. Obama's best night was Sunday, hours after the Powell announcement, and the full impact of that endorsement may not have been captured in any surveys yet. Future polling could show whether either of those was merely a support "bounce" or something more lasting.

During their final debate, a feisty McCain repeatedly forced Obama to defend his record, comments and associations. He also used the story of a voter whom the Democrat had met in Ohio, "Joe the plumber," to argue that Obama's tax plan would be bad for working class voters.

"I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody," Obama told the man with the last name of Wurzelbacher, who had asked Obama whether his plan to increase taxes on those earning more than $250,000 a year would impede his ability to buy the plumbing company where he works.

On Wednesday, McCain's campaign unveiled a new TV ad that features that Obama quote, and shows different people saying: "I'm Joe the plumber." A man asks: "Obama wants my sweat to pay for his trillion dollars in new spending?"

Since McCain has seized on that line of argument, he has picked up support among white married people and non-college educated whites, the poll shows, while widening his advantage among white men. Black voters still overwhelmingly support Obama.

The Republican also has improved his rating for handling the economy and the financial crisis. Nearly half of likely voters think their taxes will rise under an Obama administration compared with a third who say McCain would raise their taxes.

Since the last AP-GfK survey in late September, McCain also has:

--Posted big gains among likely voters earning under $50,000 a year; he now trails Obama by just 4 percentage points compared with 26 earlier.

--Surged among rural voters; he has an 18-point advantage, up from 4.

--Doubled his advantage among whites who haven't finished college and now leads by 20 points. McCain and Obama are running about even among white college graduates, no change from earlier.

--Made modest gains among whites of both genders, now leading by 22 points among white men and by 7 among white women.

--Improved slightly among whites who are married, now with a 24-point lead.

--Narrowed a gap among unmarried whites, though he still trails by 8 points.

McCain has cut into Obama's advantage on the questions of whom voters trust to handle the economy and the financial crisis. On both, the Democrat now leads by just 6 points, compared with 15 in the previous survey.

Obama still has a larger advantage on other economic measures, with 44 percent saying they think the economy will have improved a year from now if he is elected compared with 34 percent for McCain.

Intensity has increased among McCain's supporters.

A month ago, Obama had more strong supporters than McCain did. Now, the number of excited supporters is about even.

Eight of 10 Democrats are supporting Obama, while nine in 10 Republicans are backing McCain. Independents are about evenly split.

Some 24 percent of likely voters were deemed still persuadable, meaning they were either undecided or said they might switch candidates. Those up-for-grabs voters came about equally from the three categories: undecideds, McCain supporters and Obama backers.

Said John Ormesher, 67, of Dandridge, Tenn.: "I've got respect for them but that's the extent of it. I don't have a whole lot of affinity toward either one of them. They're both part of the same political mess."

[Hoofbite]

:repost:

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Not when you are like Obama and have connections like Khalid al-Mansour

wasn't that similar to an argument used by Bu****es that he could not be dumb, he was in Yale?

[Heisenberg]

Not when you are like Obama and have connections like Khalid al-Mansour

That's been disproven a few times on this very board.

[ZB9]

That's been disproven a few times on this very board.

lol because Obama stated in an article "it's not true"?

yea that sure disproves it [/sarcasm]

[ZB9]

wasn't that similar to an argument used by Bu****es that he could not be dumb, he was in Yale?

...as well as getting an MBA from Harvard

it doesnt mean they are "Bushies"...what most people are doing by pointing that out, is bringing up the obvious double standard and hypocrisy being exhibited by many.

[burmafrd]

Love how when a poll shows the race tightening poor miles pucker factor expands eponentially.

And maybe he really does believe that ACORN is clean. BUt of course if it was a conservatively oriented bunch they would of course be guilty no matter what.

And of course when he mentions the court case he naturally does not want to admit that it was a technical ruling- it had NOTHING to do with the merits of the case. But details like that escape most libs.

[Heisenberg]

lol because Obama stated in an article "it's not true"?

yea that sure disproves it [/sarcasm]

Actually, all 3 sides involved say it's not true.

al-Monsour and Obama deny: http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0908/Obama_camp_denies_Sutton_story.html

Sutton's family says he's a fruitcake and denies story: http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0908/Sutton_family_retracts_Obama_story.html

[silverbear]

OK, I guess I'm officially off of my self-imposed exile, but I've spent the past few weeks watching the propagandizing by the righties in here, and I happen to have a few facts that dispute their opinions in a rather compelling manner, I think...

Regarding this AP poll, I have two things to say, one of which a number of others have said, the other I haven't read in this thread...

First, anybody who takes solace from ONE poll is a card-carrying MORON... or at the very least, it's somebody who has never heard of the concept of an "outlier"... until and unless you go study up on that word, you really don't have sufficient intelligence to comment on polls...

I have for years said that the best way to take anything away from the polls is to use a broad sampling of all of them for a given period, then take an average... I go a step farther, I throw out the one poll most favorable to each candidate, then average the remainder together, but that's just me...

You can find a broad cross-sampling of all of the major polls on PollingReport.com, and another that Brain recommended FiveThirtyEight.com... or if you're lazy, you can wander on over to to RealClearPolitics.com, and see their daily average posted on their home page (note that RCP is a very conservative leaning website, so you righties need not be suspicious of their numbers)...

Second, there is evidence that the AP poll is seriously FLAWED, evidence that can be found in their own methodology... you see, of the respondents to the poll, 45 per cent identified themselves as "born-again/evangelical" Christians... the problem is, that demographic only makes up 23 per cent of the population as a whole, and of course, it is generally expected to skew heavily toward John McCain in this election (79 per cent of evangelicals voted Republican in 2004)... why AP chose this polling methodology, I have no idea, but of course it renders their numbers completely invalid...

Sorry to inject a few facts into the propagandizing... and sorry, Bach, but AP's results do not suggest a tightening of the race... many other polls show the gap widening these last few days...

On a semi-related note, for those of you who'd like a "primer" on the reliability of the daily tracking polls, you can find an interesting one that I stumbled across tonight at http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/tracking-poll-primer.html...

This is offered not to make any political point, but rather for those with inquiring minds who wonder which-- if any-- of those daily tracking polls are worth a hammered crap... just as I recommend PollingReport.com and FactCheck.org a and Larry Sabato's Crystal Ball as the best websites out there for a nonpartisan look at the election cycle, I recommend the article linked above as a good way of learning a little something about those daily tracking polls...

Naturally, I don't expect the hard-core righties in here to CARE about getting a nonpartisan look at things; in particular, you guys do NOT want to read Sabato's latest article about the upcoming election... you might not sleep well... :D

[silverbear]

When will people realize that the national poll is about as meaningful to the outcome of the election as the Power Rankings are to who will win the Super Bowl?

This is the absolute truth... unfortunately for McCain backers, the Electoral College projections-- the poll that ultimately REALLY counts-- is even worse for your candidate...

It's highly unlikely that if Barack Obama wins, it will be by more than five or six percentage points in the popular vote, but most Electoral College projections I'm seeing these days are calling for a rout... Obama seems to be around 350 electoral votes, in some projections more, and either candidate only needs 270...

The electoral college map is very bleak right now for the GOP, in the presidential race, the Senate race (where there is a possibility, albeit not a strong one, that the Dems could actually reach a supermajority of 60 seats that could prevent any filibustering by the GOP) and in the House race...

[silverbear]

Well I think I'll go cast my vote on Nov 4th if that is alright with you.

Sure, go for it, but there's no real need for you to-- McCain will easily carry Texas...

So why fight the lines, stay home and watch the festivities on TV...

Just so everybody knows, I'm just playin' here... EVERYBODY get out and vote... the more, the merrier...

And if you don't, we should have a rule that you're forbidden from posting in this forum for at least the next four years... me, I'm thinking of writing in Jimmy Buffett's name... I mean, his uncle would make a GREAT Secretary of the Treasury... :D

[silverbear]

i actually agree with you on that. i think acorn needs account for every fake registration so this election can be fair.

LOL... are you REALLY worried that Mickey Mouse will vote for Obama?? Or that the entire Cowboys offensive line will take the day off to go vote for him in Nevada??

Takes more than a fake registration to get to vote, you know... actually, you probably don't know, but this is just another attempt at deflection by the GOP... they know perfectly well that nobody is gonna be able to use those fake registrations... they also know that for the most part, it was ACORN itself that blew the whistle on those fake registrations...

The ONLY moral to be drawn from the whole ACORN fiasco is that it's a dumb idea to pay people to register voters...

[silverbear]

I'm doing just fine thank you then again I'm capable of making my own money without any help from Government. What I expect from my Government is to provide for the national defense.

Apparently you're not aware that McCain has said he'd cut defense spending...

[silverbear]

Oh my don't soil yourself with all the gushing. You are impressed I get that I acknowledge the man is bright but that does not make one a leader and I have not see qualities of a leader.

Dubya was a "leader" who wasn't too bright, look how that turned out... maybe it's time we tried somebody who's smart...

Say what you will about McCain but when the war was going bad he stuck to his guns even when those around him told him it would cost him politically he stood by his principles.

Yeah, Dubya's pretty obstinate too... a lot of folks who aren't real bright are as stubborn as a Missouri mule...

BTW, Obama "stuck to his guns" regarding the war when it wasn't popular to do so, too... that's the single biggest reason I'm voting for him this time around, he was one of the few out there who were right about the war all along...

[silverbear]

My only question is why won't Barack release his grades?


Uhhh, why do you care?? How is that relevant in any way to the upcoming election??

Answer-- it isn't, any more than John McCain's medical records are...

[silverbear]

Read the article I posted about Wayne Allan Root, well the parts of the interview I posted. I'm not denying that he had great success at Harvard, what I am questioning is how he got there and based off the article I posted he had some help getting there.

And Dubya had help getting into the National Guard... and Clinton had help getting his Rhodes Scholarship...

Nobody gets to the point where he can run for President without getting help along the way... strange how guys like you didn't care about who helped Dubya get into the Oval Office...

[ZB9]

pompous |ˈpämpəs|
adjective
• affectedly and irritatingly grand, solemn, or self-important : a pompous *** who pretends he knows everything

:D

[Heisenberg]

Woo! Bear is back! :D

[silverbear]

Woo! Bear is back! :D

I'm gonna see if I can irritate the righties this time without getting personal... there's less than two weeks left, I ought to be able to keep my baser side in check for that long... :D

[silverbear]

pompous |ˈpämpəs|
adjective
• affectedly and irritatingly grand, solemn, or self-important : a pompous *** who pretends he knows everything

:D

Perhaps you should be more specific as to who you're calling pompous...

If you're calling ME out, I'll simply note that as a result of spending at least 15-20 hours a week for the last 2 months reading up on this election, I DO kinda consider myself well-informed on the subject...

Sorry if that annoys you...

No, I'm not... :D

[Heisenberg]

Most weirdness in polls can be traced down if you have access to their internals. We do on this one.

44% Evangelical Christians in this poll when they made up 23% of the electorate in 2004?

There's your weirdness and the reason it's showing such a close race when most every other poll isn't.

[Beast_from_East]

Most weirdness in polls can be traced down if you have access to their internals. We do on this one.

44% Evangelical Christians in this poll when they made up 23% of the electorate in 2004?

There's your weirdness and the reason it's showing such a close race when most every other poll isn't.

Props to Silverbear for tracking down the internals.:bow:


So almost half the poll is made up of born-again Evangelicals and this is being used by Rush Limbaugh and others to show a "tightening" of the race:eek:

Wow, and you Republicans accuse the Democrats of "cooking the polls".


What is actually kinda sad is that you Repubs had to stack the poll with almost half of the sample being Evangelical and McCain still trails 44-43:eek:


THINK ABOUT THAT........IN A POLL STACKED WITH ALMOST 50% EVANGELICAL, OBAMA STILL WINS 44-43.

AND YOU GUYS THINK THE RACE IS TIGHTENING:lmao:

[JRid21]

Whats your point? He SUSPECTED he MIGHT have been wrong. And AT THIS STAGE there is not much difference in position.

So he doubted himself initially. You can still doubt yourself and believe the war is wrong. It just means he wasn't 100% sure. Obama is not so blind that he thinks he is always right. He nevertheless ended being proven right.

Moreover, he said at a certain stage of the war he would carry out the same policy as Bush. That didn't necessarily mean that he thought the War was right. Or that he necessarily agreed with his policy in an early stage of the war or a later stage of the war.

You are basically cherry picking quotes that SORT OF fit your argument, but really don't to make it sound like Obama thought the Iraq War was the right thing to do. But anyone who actually has any sort of reading comprehension ability can see that is not what he said or meant.

Number one I don't appreciate the remark about anyone with any sort of reading comprehension ability can see that is not what he said or meant. Especially if you meant it the way I am comprehending your intent with that remark. I'm very intelligent as evidenced by graduating high school almost a whole year early. I was in Beta Club, Who's Who of American High School Students, National Honor Roll, National Honor Society, was accepted into two Ivy League schools, UNC Chapel Hill, along with a few other top notch academic institutions. I'm almost positive I will be attending Yale next year, unless I have a change of heart and yes I am seventeen. Now, I don't like to brag about my academic accomplishments or get into my personal life. I seriously can not stand people who are all look at me I'm so smart, but I was just responding to the anyone with reading comprehension can see what he meant comment because I took it as an attack.

So can we please not resort to personal attacks on each other? Joking around is fine with me, but please no personal attacks on each other?

All I was pointing out is that while in his heart he might have always been opposed to the Iraq War. He clearly said he would carry out the same policy as Bush at that period of time. That is showing support for the Iraq War. Only point I was trying to make.

[JRid21]

And Dubya had help getting into the National Guard... and Clinton had help getting his Rhodes Scholarship...

Nobody gets to the point where he can run for President without getting help along the way... strange how guys like you didn't care about who helped Dubya get into the Oval Office...


Yes I did, I strongly was opposed to Bush being president in 2000 and 2004. You can make a strong argument Bush got to where he is because of his father. I'm convinced the 2000 election was rigged, you can make an argument the 2004 one was. Even though in 2000 I was just nine, I still kept up with it religiously lol. Back to Clinton though he along with Nixon are probably two of the smartest presidents we have ever had.

[silverbear]

Props to Silverbear for tracking down the internals.:bow:

With the sheer volume of information I've been reading these past few weeks, I've come across some really interesting stuff... my bookmarks in my "Politics" folder have more than tripled...

Those internals are readily available on the poll's website, though, it's not like they're hidden...

[silverbear]

Yes I did, I strongly was opposed to Bush being president in 2000 and 2004.

Then I apologize for stereotyping you...

[JRid21]

Then I apologize for stereotyping you...

You don't have to apologize man but I accept it. I respect your view points too, it's not like you don't know what your talking about.

I'm more in the mold of Barry Goldwater in my views or appear to be based on everything I've read about him. I saw a biography on him which featured Hillary Clinton and James Carville among other liberals/democrats and they seem to believe he was a liberal. Goldwater was known as the godfather of conservatism and Mr. Conservative. He himself considered himself a conservative. However I like others tend to agree in todays society he would be a Libertarian. It confuses me at times on what people consider him to be.

[Heisenberg]

On a semi-related note, for those of you who'd like a "primer" on the reliability of the daily tracking polls, you can find an interesting one that I stumbled across tonight at http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/tracking-poll-primer.html..

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you want to read about polling and which polls are good and which are bad, Fivethirtyeight.com is greatness. Plus, the comments on each of his news items is actually good discussion most of the time. You can learn a hell of a lot about polling just hanging out over there some.

[trickblue]

...as well as getting an MBA from Harvard

it doesnt mean they are "Bushies"...what most people are doing by pointing that out, is bringing up the obvious double standard and hypocrisy being exhibited by many.

We have a couple of posters in here that repeatedly want us to pay homage to Obama because he is degreed via Harvard.

When someone mentions Bush is degreed from both Harvard and Yale, you get a "Yeah, but"... and "his daddy"... it's hypocrisy in it's it's purest form...

We have another poster in here that is big on class rank. Never mind the fact that McCain graduated from the Naval Academy.

Military Academies > Ivy League

I could care less about either Bush or McCain, but they were also military pilots. Military pilots are the brightest and best regardless of political persuasion. It's funny that those that disagree with a candidate find it necessary to equate them to doofus status. "I'm better", "I'm smarter". The truth of the matter is that you probably aren't.

The other think I find funny is that the element that goes ballistic when you call Obama a Muslim are the usually same ones that readily nod their head in approval when Bush is called Hitler...

[trickblue]

Naturally, I don't expect the hard-core righties in here to CARE about getting a nonpartisan look at things;

Bear... that goes for the lefties as well... ;)

[Big Dakota]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you want to read about polling and which polls are good and which are bad, Fivethirtyeight.com is greatness. Plus, the comments on each of his news items is actually good discussion most of the time. You can learn a hell of a lot about polling just hanging out over there some.


The guy predicted 90 wins for the Rays. He's crazy accurate.

[silverbear]

Bear... that goes for the lefties as well... ;)

Point taken, trick... there's a lot of folks in here who would benefit from making a sincere effort to inform themselves...

[iceberg]

Point taken, trick... there's a lot of folks in here who would benefit from making a sincere effort to inform themselves...

good to see ya bear. i had to take a hiatus also and am only recently coming back, just not getting into every bit of maddness that i know will lead to nothing. i'm trying harder to do the things i wish others would do, like "seek to understand" - and educate myself.

in the end i do feel we all want the same things, so it amazes me we divide ourselves up so much in how we get there.

interstate or backroads? fly or train. cruise or walk. we're still wanting the same thing.

[ZB9]

We have a couple of posters in here that repeatedly want us to pay homage to Obama because he is degreed via Harvard.

When someone mentions Bush is degreed from both Harvard and Yale, you get a "Yeah, but"... and "his daddy"... it's hypocrisy in it's it's purest form...

We have another poster in here that is big on class rank. Never mind the fact that McCain graduated from the Naval Academy.

Military Academies > Ivy League

it's crazy that they dont recognize their extreme level of hypocrisy. It makes me think that it's impossible to be an extreme left wing whacko without being an extreme hypocrite. We are all hypocrites at times, but most liberals take double standards and hypocrisy to another level.

I could care less about either Bush or McCain, but they were also military pilots. Military pilots are the brightest and best regardless of political persuasion.

very true, unless they are republicans

It's funny that those that disagree with a candidate find it necessary to equate them to doofus status. "I'm better", "I'm smarter". The truth of the matter is that you probably aren't.

that is hilarious to me...especially when you see some of the people that feel like they are qualified to judge such intelligence. Personally, I would feel embarrassed to throw around the term "stupid" like some of these people do, towards the types of people that they do. It's pretty disrespectful also.

it's also quite ironic when the same people that call them "stupid" then come right back with some ridiculous asinine BS accusing someone so "stupid" of pulling off one of the biggest, most complicated conspiracies in history.

The other think I find funny is that the element that goes ballistic when you call Obama a Muslim are the usually same ones that readily nod their head in approval when Bush is called Hitler...

:lmao:

and they relate Obama to Mother Teresa and Ghandi because he was a community activist, er I mean "organizer"