I say call the UAW and Big Three's bluff

[ninja]

I wouldn't give them a cent. I don't believe they are telling the truth.

One politician asked Chrysler chief why Chrysler's parent Cerebus, who is loaded with cash, won't give Chrysler any money. What does that tell you about Chrysler? Why won't Cerebus give them money? What a crock!

And how much money does the UAW have in its pockets. Tell them to borrow from the unions. How much is the union sitting on?

I'd call their bluff. And if they don't go bankrupt, they will be exposed for the liars they are.

And if they do go bankrupt, well, good riddance.

[SacredStar]

I wouldn't give them a cent. I don't believe they are telling the truth.

One politician asked Chrysler chief why Chrysler's parent Cerebus, who is loaded with cash, won't give Chrysler any money. What does that tell you about Chrysler? Why won't Cerebus give them money? What a crock!

And how much money does the UAW have in its pockets. Tell them to borrow from the unions. How much is the union sitting on?

I'd call their bluff. And if they don't go bankrupt, they will be exposed for the liars they are.

And if they do go bankrupt, well, good riddance.

Watch it there bud, there are members on this site that work for the Big 3 or have family that work there.

[ninja]

Watch it there bud, there are members on this site that work for the Big 3 or have family that work there.

I'm shaking. What are they going to do? Go on strike? Are they going to picket in front of my house?

[adamc91115]

I'm shaking. What are they going to do? Go on strike? Are they going to picket in front of my house?

God I hate unions...

Bunch of people who whine and cry when they don't get their way. I've worked alongside too many companies that use union labor to have someone tell me otherwise.

[dbair1967]

I'd feel bad for the families that would be put in a major hardship if the Big Three somehow went away, but in all honesty those companies deserve to fail. They've been ruined by greedy, corrupt unions and horrendous management at the top. They build poor quality vehicles that are not priced competitively, all because they have to support the greed of the unions and the senior leadersip.

The Big Three brought this failure on themselves, and they should go away because of it. Not be bailed out with tax payer dollars and then be back in 3 yrs wanting more. Nothing is ever going to change there as long as they have the unions.

[SacredStar]

I'd feel bad for the families that would be put in a major hardship if the Big Three somehow went away, but in all honesty those companies deserve to fail. They've been ruined by greedy, corrupt unions and horrendous management at the top. They build poor quality vehicles that are not priced competitively, all because they have to support the greed of the unions and the senior leadersip.

The Big Three brought this failure on themselves, and they should go away because of it. Not be bailed out with tax payer dollars and then be back in 3 yrs wanting more. Nothing is ever going to change there as long as they have the unions.

What little you know about the industry.

You do realize that if even one of those companies shut down, it will bring catastrophic consequences. Millions of jobs across the board will be lost. The assemblers will lose their jobs, the suppliers will lose their jobs, the car dealers, and it will trickle all the way to the guy who sells hamburgers for McDonalds.

And don't blame this failure on the union. What, you think if GM, Ford, or Dodge didn't have a union that the management of those companies would spread that profit to the public?

All those companies would still charge the same price for their vehicles. The only people making millions more would be the CEO's and stockowners. Don't fool yourself. Besides, only 10% of a vehicles cost goes toward union wages and benefits. Where does the other 90% go?

As far as quality, your statement is pure bull. All three Big 3 companies assemble vehicles that are equal, or better in a lot of cases, than any overseas competitor.

As far as taxpayer responsibility, I find it humurous that people think it's ok to give $300 billion to bail out AIG, $200 billion to bail out Fannie May, yet balk at helping corporations that are the backbone of this country for asking for $28 billion. The tax revenue lost from these companies going down will put this country in an instant depression. You people don't realize the impact this would have.

Oh, and another thing, does anyone remember 9/11?

GM, Ford, and Chryler donated over $30 million dollars in aid to help support NY, and also donated over 100 new vehicles to NY to assist in recovery. Harley Davidson donated motorcycles and millions of dollars to spouses/children of those killed.

What did Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and Mitsubishi donate?

Not a penny.

Know the facts before you post heresay.

[SacredStar]

I'm shaking. What are they going to do? Go on strike? Are they going to picket in front of my house?

Give me your address, I can arrange that.

[burmafrd]

To start with you are full of BS if you claim US automakers are as good as Toyota or Nissan. And you are also full of bs as regards the labor cost. Pensions and health benefits are HUGE drains on the automakers. That is one of the main reasons they are not competitive against the Japanese and Koreans. Not giving management a pass at all as they have screwed the pooch as well. You CANNOT pay such high wages and benefits to what is basically UNSKILLED LABOR.

[davidl]

My first post on this site goes to a Union Thug who threatens another member who had the "audacity" to question the UAW's contribution to the Big 3's downfall...way to go SacredStar.

[Phrozen Phil]

What little you know about the industry.

You do realize that if even one of those companies shut down, it will bring catastrophic consequences. Millions of jobs across the board will be lost. The assemblers will lose their jobs, the suppliers will lose their jobs, the car dealers, and it will trickle all the way to the guy who sells hamburgers for McDonalds.

And don't blame this failure on the union. What, you think if GM, Ford, or Dodge didn't have a union that the management of those companies would spread that profit to the public?

All those companies would still charge the same price for their vehicles. The only people making millions more would be the CEO's and stockowners. Don't fool yourself. Besides, only 10% of a vehicles cost goes toward union wages and benefits. Where does the other 90% go?

As far as quality, your statement is pure bull. All three Big 3 companies assemble vehicles that are equal, or better in a lot of cases, than any overseas competitor.

As far as taxpayer responsibility, I find it humurous that people think it's ok to give $300 billion to bail out AIG, $200 billion to bail out Fannie May, yet balk at helping corporations that are the backbone of this country for asking for $28 billion. The tax revenue lost from these companies going down will put this country in an instant depression. You people don't realize the impact this would have.

Oh, and another thing, does anyone remember 9/11?

GM, Ford, and Chryler donated over $30 million dollars in aid to help support NY, and also donated over 100 new vehicles to NY to assist in recovery. Harley Davidson donated motorcycles and millions of dollars to spouses/children of those killed.

What did Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and Mitsubishi donate?

Not a penny.

Know the facts before you post heresay.

You make valid points, but I may differ with you regarding quality. As it pertains to relaibility, the Japanese brands generally stand up better over time. I've had too many issues with Fords over the years to purchase another one.
As for the rest of your points, you're right about the impact on the economy. Blaming the workers for disastrous management decisions won't improve the situation. The ecoomies of the Great Lakes states would be catastrophic, but the impact would not stop there. Anybody who thinks they're insulated from this is kidding themselves. Like most people, I just want better, more reliable vehicles from the big three and for them to be accountable.

[SacredStar]

My first post on this site goes to a Union Thug who threatens another member who had the "audacity" to question the UAW's contribution to the Big 3's downfall...way to go SacredStar.

Look up the meaning of "threat" before you accuse someone of it.

Oh, and welcome.

[SacredStar]

To start with you are full of BS if you claim US automakers are as good as Toyota or Nissan. And you are also full of bs as regards the labor cost. Pensions and health benefits are HUGE drains on the automakers. That is one of the main reasons they are not competitive against the Japanese and Koreans. Not giving management a pass at all as they have screwed the pooch as well. You CANNOT pay such high wages and benefits to what is basically UNSKILLED LABOR.

The 10% is fact look it up, it can be found as part of the notes during the senate hearings. If you do some research using JD Power Ratings you will find that foreign car company's quality ratings are falling, and domestic car company's quality is rising. Unfortunately domestic car companies have a long way to go to win back consumer confidence as a result of poor quality during the eighty's. I agree that health care is expensive, but if GM wasn't paying for it who would be? Another note that a lot of people are unaware of. Did you know that the UAW pensions are federally backed and that if the companies go bankrupt that 85% of uaw pensions are guaranteed. I don't know about you but I would rather help them and hope that they will be able to turn the companies around and they can pay for their own pensions instead of us the taxpayer.

[ABQCOWBOY]

It's easy to forget that there is a human element connected to all of these things. The decisions made come with real impact for the families who depend on these jobs. Unfortunatly, I have to agree with those who say that the American Auto Industry have brought this on themselves. Deunionisation is a big plus, IMO, towards getting back on track in the American Auto Industry. I believe in Trucks and SUVs, made by American Auto makers but I don't believe in cars or the quality statments made by the Big3, where cars are concerned. The longer we prop up a bad business model, the longer the drain on American Tax payer resources. I believe Americans will buy American if the products are of like quality. However, when cars are costing between 20 and 40 thousand dollars, on average, you can't blame folks for trying to get the best product for there hard earned dollars. Lots of jobs and families are on the line here but the reality is that if my job went away tomorrow, nobody would be bailing me out. In truth, another company would pop up to fill the void and eventually, a better product would result from it. That's what I believe anyway.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Did you know that the UAW pensions are federally backed and that if the companies go bankrupt that 85% of uaw pensions are guaranteed. I don't know about you but I would rather help them and hope that they will be able to turn the companies around and they can pay for their own pensions instead of us the taxpayer.


I was aware of this fact. However, the problem is really about a good business model, as opposed to continuation of the same poor business practices. I am not opposed to helping American Industry. As proof of this, I can say that I own 3 GMC trucks, 1 GMC SUV and one Ford (it aint my fault on the Ford) car. I also own one VW car. I would not have bought the Ford car but I promised one of my children a Mustang if the grades were there so.....

If these companies file, then yes, the Tax Payer might be on the hook for UAW bennies but, at least it would be done. Right now, we're on the hook for these, were pumping hundreds of Millions of Dollars into these companies and we're still seeing an over priced, under performing product that each and every American has to pay for directly. At some point, the industry standard has to improve and Americans have to stop being held hostage for bailout funds. We may have to pay for 85% of AUW benefits but at least this way, it comes to a conclusion and we can move forward. The other way, it's a never ending cycle of debt and loss.

[SacredStar]

It's easy to forget that there is a human element connected to all of these things. The decisions made come with real impact for the families who depend on these jobs. Unfortunatly, I have to agree with those who say that the American Auto Industry have brought this on themselves. Deunionisation is a big plus, IMO, towards getting back on track in the American Auto Industry. I believe in Trucks and SUVs, made by American Auto makers but I don't believe in cars or the quality statments made by the Big3, where cars are concerned. The longer we prop up a bad business model, the longer the drain on American Tax payer resources. I believe Americans will buy American if the products are of like quality. However, when cars are costing between 20 and 40 thousand dollars, on average, you can't blame folks for trying to get the best product for there hard earned dollars. Lots of jobs and families are on the line here but the reality is that if my job went away tomorrow, nobody would be bailing me out. In truth, another company would pop up to fill the void and eventually, a better product would result from it. That's what I believe anyway.

I don't think quality is the issue anymore. The Big 3's reputation has been scarred by the media from a time when quality was an issue. The quality is equal now. The Big 3 lagged in that area, but has closed the gap and even passed the foriegn companies in quality, fuel economy, and warranty.

Another reason American car companies are suffering is because of the free trade, or NAFTA, that is incorporated in this country. The foriegn companies have a huge advantage. The domestic car companies just cannot compete. Level the playing field, and the Big 3 wil have a chance to compete.

Example: IN 2006, KIA motors of Korea exported 750,000 vehicles to the US. In return, the US was only allowed 5000 vehicles into Korea, that is Ford, GM, and Chrysler combined. 5000 compared to 750,000.......how is that fair?

[ABQCOWBOY]

I don't think quality is the issue anymore. The Big 3's reputation has been scarred by the media from a time when quality was an issue. The quality is equal now. The Big 3 lagged in that area, but has closed the gap and even passed the foriegn companies in quality, fuel economy, and warranty.

Another reason American car companies are suffering is because of the free trade, or NAFTA, that is incorporated in this country. The foriegn companies have a huge advantage. The domestic car companies just cannot compete. Level the playing field, and the Big 3 wil have a chance to compete.

Example: IN 2006, KIA motors of Korea exported 750,000 vehicles to the US. In return, the US was only allowed 5000 vehicles into Korea, that is Ford, GM, and Chrysler combined. 5000 compared to 750,000.......how is that fair?


I don't agree on the question of quality. In the past 10 years, I haven't seen it. I do agree that a great deal of it is perception driven but when American Cars are lasting 150 thousand miles, if lucky, and you still see foreign cars running into the 250 thousand mile range, it just doesn't pan out IMO.

Import laws are putting American Auto Makers at a disadvantage, that's true, but then again, if American Auto Makers took back America by building a better car, it would not be an issue. I believe that Americans want to buy American. Having said that, you have to build a product that meets or exceeds the foreign products being offered and it has to be done in a way that competes dollar for dollar and in a sound business fashion. Not an easy task, I'm certain of that but, if the Big3 want Americans to support them, they need to build a better product. I don't believe it's just perception alone. I do believe that it's the actual product. You go to Car lots and you can buy American made cars much cheaper then you can foreign made cars of the same class. Fords and Chevys everywhere but you don't see a lot of Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, VWs or the like. When you do find them, they are much more expensive. That's the true decider. What does America pay for and what do they want? Right now, it's very clear that America wants these foreign cars. The Big3 have to do it better if they want to regain there position at home. Personally, I don't care if we sell no cars in Korea. I just want to be able to buy an American Car that is well designed and competative, in all ways, with the foreign auto makers.

[Doomsday101]

I don't agree on the question of quality. In the past 10 years, I haven't seen it. I do agree that a great deal of it is perception driven but when American Cars are lasting 150 thousand miles, if lucky, and you still see foreign cars running into the 250 thousand mile range, it just doesn't pan out IMO.

Import laws are putting American Auto Makers at a disadvantage, that's true, but then again, if American Auto Makers took back America by building a better car, it would not be an issue. I believe that Americans want to buy American. Having said that, you have to build a product that meets or exceeds the foreign products being offered and it has to be done in a way that competes dollar for dollar and in a sound business fashion. Not an easy task, I'm certain of that but, if the Big3 want Americans to support them, they need to build a better product. I don't believe it's just perception alone. I do believe that it's the actual product. You go to Car lots and you can buy American made cars much cheaper then you can foreign made cars of the same class. Fords and Chevys everywhere but you don't see a lot of Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, VWs or the like. When you do find them, they are much more expensive. That's the true decider. What does America pay for and what do they want? Right now, it's very clear that America wants these foreign cars. The Big3 have to do it better if they want to regain there position at home. Personally, I don't care if we sell no cars in Korea. I just want to be able to buy an American Car that is well designed and competative, in all ways, with the foreign auto makers.


I think until Management and the union change their ways they will continue to struggle face it many of the Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans and VWs sold in the US are made by US workers here in the US. The big 3 have done a poor job in managing and the union workers have been vastly overpaid for years

[WoodysGirl]

I don't know the stats so I'm just speculating. I don't know that the quality of American cars are really that much different than foreign cars. But speaking as a woman, many of whom buy cars vs trucks, they just aren't cute.

Performance and quality could be equally grade A, but if they're ugly, no one will buy. I wanted to buy a car the last go round and I just could not find any in any of the GM and Ford products that I liked using my Mom's GM discount or my brother's Ford discount. Just didn't care for any of the cars. I've found GM and Ford cars to either be male-focused (muscle) or age-focused (meaning they look like something my grandmother would drive).

Nothing in the middle. IMO, that's why sales have lagged for them. I tend to think the average auto-buyer doesn't concern themselves with performance as much as whether they look good driving it. Foreign automakers make nicer looking small and mid-sized cars.

[Hoofbite]

I was watching some news station the other day and they had Bill Gates opinion on the matter.

He brought up a good point in asking why there wasn't anyone stepping up to help the auto industry out. Why aren't there private parties willing to try to turn a buck on the deal?

Didn't catch everything he was saying as I was in a hospital and getting bits and pieces from the closed captioning.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I think until Management and the union change their ways they will continue to struggle face it many of the Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans and VWs sold in the US are made by US workers here in the US. The big 3 have done a poor job in managing and the union workers have been vastly overpaid for years


I have to agree Dooms. I never thought I'd see the day but here it is. I think Americans are ready to let the Big3 pass by the boards. I hope that doesn't happen but it could.

[Doomsday101]

I have to agree Dooms. I never thought I'd see the day but here it is. I think Americans are ready to let the Big3 pass by the boards. I hope that doesn't happen but it could.

I think many Americans would be willing to see the bailout happen if they were assured of major changes within the industry namely a change in the pay and benefits as well as these mind numbing bonuses given to upper management for a job well done? When they are losing money

[WoodysGirl]

I think until Management and the union change their ways they will continue to struggle face it many of the Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans and VWs sold in the US are made by US workers here in the US. The big 3 have done a poor job in managing and the union workers have been vastly overpaid for yearsI think that's all relative.

When my Mom began working there back in the 70s, she wasn't being paid a whole lot of money. Due to cost of living increases (that I think we'd all want), that's how their hourly pay is where it is now. But when I look at my Mom shuffling around the house, body broken down from working in every part of the GM plant, and she's not even 60, sorry I think she earned every dollar she made. That's not to make people feel sorry for her or nothing. Just saying my position is based on observing someone up close and personal work the line.

GM needs to do better. I'm definitely one who believes the Big 3 needs to change their business model, but it's not all based on union assembly workers. And since they've changed their contract with the union, I don't think it'll be that will be an issue. My cousin who works out there now gets paid less than half what my Mom was making when she retired.

I think it's fixing their car designs. Design a cuter car, with better fuel-efficiency, then people will buy.

[WoodysGirl]

I think many Americans would be willing to see the bailout happen if they were assured of major changes within the industry namely a change in the pay and benefits as well as these mind numbing bonuses given to upper management for a job well done? When they are losing money
They've already adjusted the union contract so that assembly workers pay and benefits are more in line with foreign auto makers.

Bonuses to upper management is not just auto-industry-specific. Every CEO of a Fortune 500 company has some sort of ridiculous bonus payout. I happen to work at both El Paso and Reliant when they ousted their CEOS. CEOs walked away with millions of dollars in a severance. Employees get fired and they're lucky to get two weeks severance. It's crazy.

[SacredStar]

I think until Management and the union change their ways they will continue to struggle face it many of the Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans and VWs sold in the US are made by US workers here in the US. The big 3 have done a poor job in managing and the union workers have been vastly overpaid for years

Yes, a lot of those brands are now made in America. But the wages and benefits those Americans make are comparable to to employees of the Big 3.

So they are non-union, but they make the same as union, and have the same benefits as union workers.

Another fact: Of the Toyota vehicles that are "best in quality", not one is made in the US. A Camry from Japan is rated as higher quality than a Camry made in the US. That reflects on the American worker, not the manufacturing company.

As far as the overpay statement: Many UAW workers have stated they would gladly take a paycut if that return is given to the customers in lower car prices. The management of these Big 3 companies would not pass the savings on to the consumer, they would increase their bonuses and shareholders would benefit immensely.

Canada is currently working a formula that would only take an equal amount of imports to their exports.

[joseephuss]

I don't think quality is the issue anymore. The Big 3's reputation has been scarred by the media from a time when quality was an issue. The quality is equal now. The Big 3 lagged in that area, but has closed the gap and even passed the foriegn companies in quality, fuel economy, and warranty.

Another reason American car companies are suffering is because of the free trade, or NAFTA, that is incorporated in this country. The foriegn companies have a huge advantage. The domestic car companies just cannot compete. Level the playing field, and the Big 3 wil have a chance to compete.

Example: IN 2006, KIA motors of Korea exported 750,000 vehicles to the US. In return, the US was only allowed 5000 vehicles into Korea, that is Ford, GM, and Chrysler combined. 5000 compared to 750,000.......how is that fair?

Of the 5 million people in South Korea, how many are car buyers? Of the 300 million people in the U.S., how many are car buyers? You obviously can't go 750,000 vehicles for 750,000 vehicles. That would over saturate one market. You would not have enough buyers in South Korea, which would cause cars to just sitting there unsold.

Also, NAFTA has nothing to do with cars from Korea, Japan or Europe. NAFTA is only between the U.S., Canada and Mexico. In 2007, the U.S. and South Korea did come up with their own free trade agreement, which should increase the amount of cars exported to Korea from the U.S. South Korea will lower the taxes on the cars. Those taxes were based on engine size and a few other part related restrictions.

[ABQCOWBOY]

As far as the overpay statement: Many UAW workers have stated they would gladly take a paycut if that return is given to the customers in lower car prices. The management of these Big 3 companies would not pass the savings on to the consumer, they would increase their bonuses and shareholders would benefit immensely.

I agree with this and it is a very good point IMO. I am not a pro union guy, per say, but I do think that all parties have to be involved with the restructure of Americas Auto Industry. It can't be just one part that bleeds. The Auto Industry didn't get where they currently are because of just the Unions. All parties involved, including the customer base, has played a part in this.

Managment has adopted a bad business pracitce and allowed it to go on, the Unions have set wage and benefits standards that are threatening to price American Auto makers out of the industry, the work force has not produced the quality of product it takes to succeed, design guys because they are not engineering the fuel efficiant, economical, appealing, dependable cars Americans want, Government for allowing competative Auto Makers to gain such a foothold in America and consumers for not demanding a better Product from Detroit as opposed to just buying foreign.

I agree with your take here SacredStar.

[joseephuss]

I agree with this and it is a very good point IMO. I am not a pro union guy, per say, but I do think that all parties have to be involved with the restructure of Americas Auto Industry. It can't be just one part that bleeds. The Auto Industry didn't get where they currently are because of just the Unions. All parties involved, including the customer base, has played a part in this.

Managment has adopted a bad business pracitce and allowed it to go on, the Unions have set wage and benefits standards that are threatening to price American Auto makers out of the industry, the work force has not produced the quality of product it takes to succeed, design guys because they are not engineering the fuel efficiant, economical, appealing, dependable cars Americans want, Government for allowing competative Auto Makers to gain such a foothold in America and consumers for not demanding a better Product from Detroit as opposed to just buying foreign.

I agree with your take here SacredStar.

They also don't make cars that foreign markets want. The Big 3 do a good job making trucks. They sell well in the U.S. and abroad. They don't do as well with cars. Why can they make a good truck, but not a good car?

[ABQCOWBOY]

They also don't make cars that foreign markets want. The Big 3 do a good job making trucks. They sell well in the U.S. and abroad. They don't do as well with cars. Why can they make a good truck, but not a good car?

Well, part of the problem (at least in Europe) is that they are used to extrodinary fuel efficiancy. They will settle for an under powered, under sized vehincal in exchange for milage. Americans don't think that way. We don't want small under powered 4 cylinders. We want big, powerful, sexy cars. We build good trucks because a truck is a truck is a truck. When you buy a truck, you know what your buying. Your not buying fuel efficiant vehicals designed to get a person from point A to point B. Your buying something designed to haul or stand up to a more challenging performance regiment. You already know your not going to get great milage so the customer is not predisposed to this. Our trucks typically have better power and hold up. They are built in line with what America really wants and are unsattled with the whole fuel efficiancy thing. Cars face a whole different problem. We want the same standards we have in trucks, built into cars but with the whole fuel efficiancy thing added in. The one thing I don't understand about American Cars is that we don't build them to last. It seems like if we can't give the fuel efficiancy, together with the sexy package, you would at least build them to last.

[SacredStar]

Another reason GM is having problems is because of the number of retiree pensions they have to pay. They have over 300,000 people on retirement.

As a comparison, Toyota USA has less than 500 people on retirement.
Toyota USA pays comparable wages and benefits that the Big 3 offer, but as soon as the Big 3 cut their benefits, Toyota and Nisson, and Honda will all follow suit.

So not only will American car company employees wages be affected, but so will the Japanese car companies employees.

[joseephuss]

Another reason GM is having problems is because of the number of retiree pensions they have to pay. They have over 300,000 people on retirement.

As a comparison, Toyota USA has less than 500 people on retirement.
Toyota USA pays comparable wages and benefits that the Big 3 offer, but as soon as the Big 3 cut their benefits, Toyota and Nisson, and Honda will all follow suit.

So not only will American car company employees wages be affected, but so will the Japanese car companies employees.

To go along with that, GM has been in business a lot longer than Toyota, so it makes sense that they have more retirees. GM began in 1908 while Toyota's first export to the U.S. was not until 1957. They didn't start building cars within the U.S. until 1982 or so. If both companies had the exact same retirement plans over their history, GM would still have more retired people to pay just because they have been around longer.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Another reason GM is having problems is because of the number of retiree pensions they have to pay. They have over 300,000 people on retirement.

As a comparison, Toyota USA has less than 500 people on retirement.
Toyota USA pays comparable wages and benefits that the Big 3 offer, but as soon as the Big 3 cut their benefits, Toyota and Nisson, and Honda will all follow suit.

So not only will American car company employees wages be affected, but so will the Japanese car companies employees.


As I understand it, the Japanese Automotive manufacturers do not enjoy the same benefits packages their American counter parts do. They don't have near the medical and are payed at a lower scale then the Unionized American Auto Workers are. However, I'm not all together certain that it matters. I mean, Japanese and European cars are very expensive, yet they seem to be out selling American cars. This would seem to suggest that it's something other then the actual prices of cars. Clearly, people will spend more if they are buying a better product. Who knows, maybe WG is more correct then we know. I mean, lets face it, you can have the most efficiant care in the world but if it looks like a Checker Taxicab, which member of this board is going to buy it? If the Big3 build good looking, dependable, reasonably fuel efficiant cars and price them reasonably, Americans will buy them. I don't think their is any question about it.

[ABQCOWBOY]

To go along with that, GM has been in business a lot longer than Toyota, so it makes sense that they have more retirees. GM began in 1908 while Toyota's first export to the U.S. was not until 1957. They didn't start building cars within the U.S. until 1982 or so. If both companies had the exact same retirement plans over their history, GM would still have more retired people to pay just because they have been around longer.

Well, if Mr. Obama stays true to his promises, then it won't really matter if they fall down on health care bennies because everybody in America will be covered anyway.

[ninja]

No one yet has commented about Cerebus, Chrysler's parent, not giving any money to Chrysler even though they have lots of cash.

So basically, you won't give your own selfish kid any more money (because he is an addict and will only waste it on drugs) but you are telling me and everyone else that we have to give your kid money or he will starve. So, we compromise. We give your kid food. And your kid then sells the food for pennies on the dollar and buys drugs. Now we have to give your kid even more food to maintain his habit. I say time for your kid to go cold turkey.

If you refuse to give your own kid money even though you have it, why should I give your kid any money?

[SacredStar]

As I understand it, the Japanese Automotive manufacturers do not enjoy the same benefits packages their American counter parts do. They don't have near the medical and are payed at a lower scale then the Unionized American Auto Workers are. However, I'm not all together certain that it matters. I mean, Japanese and European cars are very expensive, yet they seem to be out selling American cars. This would seem to suggest that it's something other then the actual prices of cars. Clearly, people will spend more if they are buying a better product. Who knows, maybe WG is more correct then we know. I mean, lets face it, you can have the most efficiant care in the world but if it looks like a Checker Taxicab, which member of this board is going to buy it? If the Big3 build good looking, dependable, reasonably fuel efficiant cars and price them reasonably, Americans will buy them. I don't think their is any question about it.

WG is right.

GM has too many products that are bland and look ugly. They have already consolidated their design center, closing all parts down except for the main center in Michigan. They also plan to scrap the lines of Pontiac, Saab, and Hummer. They have already cut the Oldsmobile line. They plan to offer better designs, with fewer models. They also plan to hire all new designers.

The union contract will be opened, and concessions will be made. Most employees are expecting to lose up to $5.00 an hour along with substantial health coverage. Most employees are also willing to give these benefits up w/o a fight as long as the company really, truly tries to help itself. What most people don't know is that these employees have given up a lot in the past two contracts which relieved GM of hundreds of millions of dollars. GM turned around and squandered that money. The unionized employees are ready to do their part, but they fear the company leaders are not.

I know some here don't agree, and I don't expect you to, but I think the Big 3 should get this loan, get this chance, just as AIG got theirs, and Fannie May got theirs.......to the tune of $500 billion. The Big 3 is asking for a fraction, a very small fraction, of that recovery package.

[ninja]

The Big Three admits that this $15 billion will only last until March. So what are you going to do 3 months from now? Not even in your wildest halleucinations will the car market magically get better by March. Or June. Or Sept. Or all the way through 2010.

Do you really think The Big Three has any intention of paying these loans back?

So, when are you going to draw the line? When is enough is enough? How much will you waste on these chumps?

[SacredStar]

The Big Three admits that this $15 billion will only last until March. So what are you going to do 3 months from now? Not even in your wildest halleucinations will the car market magically get better by March. Or June. Or Sept. Or all the way through 2010.

Do you really think The Big Three has any intention of paying these loans back?

So, when are you going to draw the line? When is enough is enough? How much will you waste on these chumps?

Do you think AIG will pay back the $300 billion they borrowed? Fannie May the $200 billion they borrowed?

I would trust a company that has been here over a hundred years that it intends to pay the money back. Not saying they will, because I don't know, but they have a much better chance than the other two.

I'm just trying get people to see the whole picture. If these corporations go down, over 3 million jobs go with them. Do you really want to see 3 million families suffer?

As far as drawing the line, why is it ok for $500 billion to bail out to lending corporations, and not $25 billion to bail out a corp. that has been a backbone to this nation for 100 years?

[dbair1967]

What little you know about the industry.

You do realize that if even one of those companies shut down, it will bring catastrophic consequences. Millions of jobs across the board will be lost. The assemblers will lose their jobs, the suppliers will lose their jobs, the car dealers, and it will trickle all the way to the guy who sells hamburgers for McDonalds.

And don't blame this failure on the union. What, you think if GM, Ford, or Dodge didn't have a union that the management of those companies would spread that profit to the public?

All those companies would still charge the same price for their vehicles. The only people making millions more would be the CEO's and stockowners. Don't fool yourself. Besides, only 10% of a vehicles cost goes toward union wages and benefits. Where does the other 90% go?

As far as quality, your statement is pure bull. All three Big 3 companies assemble vehicles that are equal, or better in a lot of cases, than any overseas competitor.

As far as taxpayer responsibility, I find it humurous that people think it's ok to give $300 billion to bail out AIG, $200 billion to bail out Fannie May, yet balk at helping corporations that are the backbone of this country for asking for $28 billion. The tax revenue lost from these companies going down will put this country in an instant depression. You people don't realize the impact this would have.

Oh, and another thing, does anyone remember 9/11?

GM, Ford, and Chryler donated over $30 million dollars in aid to help support NY, and also donated over 100 new vehicles to NY to assist in recovery. Harley Davidson donated motorcycles and millions of dollars to spouses/children of those killed.

What did Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and Mitsubishi donate?

Not a penny.

Know the facts before you post heresay.

I do know the facts, and the facts are the unions are what has driven the US automakers down the tubes. Almost anyone with an unbiased view can see it.

As far as the quality, you are way off. There is absolutely no comparison in the overall quality. The pricing is terrible as well.

[burmafrd]

What do you expect from a union lemming? He spouted the union line about NAFTA even though it has NOTHING to do with this problem. The Unions demanded extraordinary compensation for UNSKILLED LABOR. The companies were pretty much run by incompetents for years. Frankly I do not see how that can be changed unless both sides are frankly kicked to the gutter.
ANd we start out fresh.

[sacase]

The American people already voted.....with their wallets. These companies need to do something drastic if they want to be profitable. Let them file chapter 11. Get rid of the unions and figure out a realistic way to become profitable. Make better products and cut labor costs and they will be profitable once again.

[dbair1967]

The American people already voted.....with their wallets. These companies need to do something drastic if they want to be profitable. Let them file chapter 11. Get rid of the unions and figure out a realistic way to become profitable. Make better products and cut labor costs and they will be profitable once again.

I agree 100%

[SacredStar]

I do know the facts, and the facts are the unions are what has driven the US automakers down the tubes. Almost anyone with an unbiased view can see it.

As far as the quality, you are way off. There is absolutely no comparison in the overall quality. The pricing is terrible as well.

Wrong. Management has a way bigger role in the demise of the auto companies. Please try to explain how the union is solely responsible when the total cost of their entire benefit package only amounts to 10% of the entire cost of a vehicle. Again, what does management do with the remaining 90%?

Wrong. Check JD Power audits. The Big 3 have vehicles that are rated higher than foreign products of the same model comparison. There is comparison, and it is extremely close.

And wrong. I respect you as a great poster on football related topics, but you are way off base here. It is glaringly obvious you post from emotion on this topic, and not fact.

[SacredStar]

What do you expect from a union lemming? He spouted the union line about NAFTA even though it has NOTHING to do with this problem. The Unions demanded extraordinary compensation for UNSKILLED LABOR. The companies were pretty much run by incompetents for years. Frankly I do not see how that can be changed unless both sides are frankly kicked to the gutter.
ANd we start out fresh.

Nafta does have a part. Where do you think most of the parts jobs went after that agreement?

Mexico.

No-one can claim that American companies have fair trade with Asian markets, because it is well known that the Asian market has a huge advantage in trade. There is nothing fair about it.

The only truth in your post is that companies have been run by incompeptents.

[SacredStar]

What do you expect from a union lemming? He spouted the union line about NAFTA even though it has NOTHING to do with this problem. The Unions demanded extraordinary compensation for UNSKILLED LABOR. The companies were pretty much run by incompetents for years. Frankly I do not see how that can be changed unless both sides are frankly kicked to the gutter.
ANd we start out fresh.

First off, if you can't relay your argument w/o name calling, then your argument is already defeated.

Second, the unskilled labor you speak of receive less wages than the unskilled labor of our foreign labor force. You do realize that, right?

Toyota employees are paid an average of $30 an hour, the Big 3 average of $29 an hour. Yet Toyota is non-union. So your point of the the Big 3's problem blame game against the union is baseless. How is it that Toyota pays their employees more yet they are not suffering financially?

Maybe it is because Toyota does not pay their leadership millions of dollars in bonuses and salary. Call me crazy, but that seems like a management problem, not a union problem. GM would be in this trouble regardless of if they had a union shop or not. What, you think they would take the extra money they make by being non-union and pass it on to the consumers?

No, they would increase their blue collar bonuses and salaries.

Can you honestly tell me that you would not work in a union shop if offered the chance?

I don't know....maybe you are jealous, or maybe you are a management person who receives less of a bonus because of a union, but you sound bitter.

[SacredStar]

The American people already voted.....with their wallets. These companies need to do something drastic if they want to be profitable. Let them file chapter 11. Get rid of the unions and figure out a realistic way to become profitable. Make better products and cut labor costs and they will be profitable once again.

Keep blaming the union. :rolleyes:

Again, how is it that Toyota can pay their employees higher wages w/o a union, yet not be in financial trouble?

Bad management people.

[sacase]

Keep blaming the union. :rolleyes:

Again, how is it that Toyota can pay their employees higher wages w/o a union, yet not be in financial trouble?

Bad management people.

Let's be intellectually honest here. While Toyota pays their labor $30 and detroit pays 29.78 for their labor, that is not the total labor costs. Toyota is not straddled with paying workers who are not working, paying workers who get laid off, paying into retired workers medical costs, etc. When you calculate total compensation, the big three end up paying a lot more. GM pays $69 per employee while Toyota pays $48. A $21 difference is drastically different 22 cent difference between salaries. Not to mention that the American auto manufactuers make crap cars. Which is why I got my Mercedes E class rather than an American car this year. But let's not let facts cloud the argument.

[SacredStar]

Well gee, that's for supporting your country.

[sacase]

Well gee, that's for supporting your country.

Well when you make something comparable to a E Class, then I will check it out, but right now american luxury cars are lacking.

[SacredStar]

Well when you make something comparable to a E Class, then I will check it out, but right now american luxury cars are lacking.

Nothing in domestic luxury can touch a Mercedes.

[burmafrd]

Its unskilled labor.
And actually sacred if you bothered to look at where I am you might learn a few things. But then I expect nothing less from a union lemming like you.
The total yearly cost of all the top executives probably comes out to less then $100 a car. Yet you want to blame the problems on their salary. It would be funny if it was not so pathetic.

[SacredStar]

Its unskilled labor.
And actually sacred if you bothered to look at where I am you might learn a few things. But then I expect nothing less from a union lemming like you.
The total yearly cost of all the top executives probably comes out to less then $100 a car. Yet you want to blame the problems on their salary. It would be funny if it was not so pathetic.

You are on the outside looking in.

I'm on the inside and have been for 23 years.

Wagoner made $15 million this year. That would be somewhat higher than $100 per car. That is just one guy. And that is a number that has not added his bonus yet.

Nice name calling too, grow up and learn something yourself, because you know nothing about how this business works.

[burmafrd]

YOU know less obviously. How many cars did GM make last year ( total production) ; what 5 million or so= probably more. So that works out to $3 dollars a car. I guess you failed math in school, right?

[ninja]

Wagoner made $15 million this year. That would be somewhat higher than $100 per car. That is just one guy. And that is a number that has not added his bonus yet.

Nice name calling too, grow up and learn something yourself, because you know nothing about how this business works.

I do believe your numbers are way off. $100/car for one CEO bonus is ridiculous. If I recall, 10-12 million cars were sold this year in the US. Say, GM's share is approximately 25%. That means GM sold about 3 million autos.
$15 million CEO salary/3 million autos is: $5/auto.

But, you bring up an interesting comparison I never thought about. So GM's CEO gets $5/auto sold. I wonder how much the non-Big Three CEOs get per auto. And I wonder how much the typical UAW worker gets in bonus/auto sold in previous years. If I have time, I would like to check.

But, right now I have to stimulate the economy and buy some Christmas presents.

[SacredStar]

YOU know less obviously. How many cars did GM make last year ( total production) ; what 5 million or so= probably more. So that works out to $3 dollars a car. I guess you failed math in school, right?

You do realize that the CEO is not the only person at GM making millions per year, right?

[burmafrd]

You DO realize that the number of those making 1 mil plus is actually pretty small?