How is Greg Ellis a great pass rusher?

[mr.jameswoods]

I won't respond to this. I genuinely want you to explain to me how Greg Ellis is a great pass rusher? I'm not talking his run stopping abilities. I'm not talking about his overall value to the team. I'm not talking about his monetary value. I'm talking about his ability to rush the passer and that's all.

Please explain to me how Greg Ellis is an asset as a pass rusher. I just find it hard to believe how anyone can argue Ellis is a threat as a pass rusher when he has failed to notch double digit sacks in 7 seasons in the NFL. He has not been consistent either. He has two seasons with 3 sacks and one with 6 sacks. He does not get double teamed on a consistent basis so you won't convince me of that.

I won't respond to this.

How is Greg Ellis a threat as a pass rusher?

[JDSmith]

He's a great pass rusher in this scheme. Which means he's as good as anyone would be in our 'run first' defense. If we played a more attacking D on the line he'd have more sacks, but we'd give up even more big runs when our undersized LBs were exposed and abused.

[DipChit]

You dont think theres ever enough 3rd and long scenarios over the course of a season, JD, to where any of our Ends should be in nothing much more than "pin your ears back" mode? Thus oweing to more sacks regardless of 1st and 2nd down scheme?

I too think he's a fine player for what he does. But he might as well be a Tony Tolbert or Jim Jeffcoat type player. If you dont have a Haley type to compliment them then you arent going to raise a bunch of hell in the backfield.

[dbair1967]

I won't respond to this. I genuinely want you to explain to me how Greg Ellis is a great pass rusher? I'm not talking his run stopping abilities. I'm not talking about his overall value to the team. I'm not talking about his monetary value. I'm talking about his ability to rush the passer and that's all.

Please explain to me how Greg Ellis is an asset as a pass rusher. I just find it hard to believe how anyone can argue Ellis is a threat as a pass rusher when he has failed to notch double digit sacks in 7 seasons in the NFL. He has not been consistent either. He has two seasons with 3 sacks and one with 6 sacks. He does not get double teamed on a consistent basis so you won't convince me of that.

I won't respond to this.

How is Greg Ellis a threat as a pass rusher?

who's ever said he was a GREAT pass rusher? Most people give him credit for beign what he is, a very good all around NFL DE...your consistency argument is pretty stupid, considering one of his 3 sack seasons was his rookie yr, and the other was the yr coming off a severely broken leg...to say he isnt double teamed consistently shows you dont watch the games either, because he does...and he does what he does without much help from the scheme or the RDE spot...

David

[jimmy40]

I won't respond to this. I genuinely want you to explain to me how Greg Ellis is a great pass rusher? I'm not talking his run stopping abilities. I'm not talking about his overall value to the team. I'm not talking about his monetary value. I'm talking about his ability to rush the passer and that's all.

Please explain to me how Greg Ellis is an asset as a pass rusher. I just find it hard to believe how anyone can argue Ellis is a threat as a pass rusher when he has failed to notch double digit sacks in 7 seasons in the NFL. He has not been consistent either. He has two seasons with 3 sacks and one with 6 sacks. He does not get double teamed on a consistent basis so you won't convince me of that.

I won't respond to this.

How is Greg Ellis a threat as a pass rusher?Who said he was?

[big dog cowboy]

We didn't draft Ellis to be a pass rusher as I recall.

[jimmy40]

We didn't draft Ellis to be a pass rusher as I recall.If Jerry Jones drafts a defensive end it's a pretty safe bet they aren't pass rushers.

[mr.jameswoods]

Who said he was?

Apparently quite a few people on this forum

[Woods]

Ellis is good, not great.

But he's good enough to be a piece of the puzzle, IMO.

[jimmy40]

Apparently quite a few people on this forumLots of new guys I guess.

[jterrell]

I won't respond to this. I genuinely want you to explain to me how Greg Ellis is a great pass rusher? I'm not talking his run stopping abilities. I'm not talking about his overall value to the team. I'm not talking about his monetary value. I'm talking about his ability to rush the passer and that's all.

Please explain to me how Greg Ellis is an asset as a pass rusher. I just find it hard to believe how anyone can argue Ellis is a threat as a pass rusher when he has failed to notch double digit sacks in 7 seasons in the NFL. He has not been consistent either. He has two seasons with 3 sacks and one with 6 sacks. He does not get double teamed on a consistent basis so you won't convince me of that.

I won't respond to this.

How is Greg Ellis a threat as a pass rusher?
EFFORT. .............

[Smith22]

My thing is, why to people constantly bring his name up like he is the reason our defense sucks or something. Try looking at Wiley, Carson, our LB'ers, our secondary, etc.....

Ellis is an above average DE who can get to the QB but isn't a great pass rusher. He will get you 7+ sacks a year, give or take a sack. He is one of the few DL we have who seems to swat passess down at the LOS as well, not to mention he is solid against the run.

[Dale]

Ellis is a good player - nothing more, nothing less. He's 4th in the NFC in sacks, so it's not like he's terrible at creating pressure. But by no means is he an elite pass rusher or playmaker along the defensive line (look no further than his career sack marks). He's a sturdy, well-rounded player that is good to have around, but we desperately need someone that is more of a pure-pass rushing nature on the other side.

[Duane]

Ellis is a good player - nothing more, nothing less. He's 4th in the NFC in sacks, so it's not like he's terrible at creating pressure. But by no means is he an elite pass rusher or playmaker along the defensive line (look no further than his career sack marks). He's a sturdy, well-rounded player that is good to have around, but we desperately need someone that is more of a pure-pass rushing nature on the other side.
Agreed. Ellis is a average pass rusher and above average run stopper. He plays smart and plays hard every down. I don't think we could ask for a whole lot more.

[MichaelWinicki]

Agreed. Ellis is a average pass rusher and above average run stopper. He plays smart and plays hard every down. I don't think we could ask for a whole lot more.


Well said Duane...

My thoughts exactly.

[Dale]

You and I are in agreement. I'm really directing this question at those who think Ellis is an asset as a pass rusher. Yes, I know he is a hearty boyscout who is good overal and dependable. But on 3rd and long, how do your trust Greg Ellis?

Well, in comparison to our other defensive line standouts, I guess Ellis is a superstar pass rusher. :D

[MichaelWinicki]

Well, in comparison to our other defensive line standouts, I guess Ellis is a superstar pass rusher. :D


Dale, now quit scaring us. :D

[scottsp]

I don't recall anyone claiming Ellis to be a great defensive end, much less a pass rusher. I don't know that I could call him solid.

He's a bit better than average in my book.

This one is laughable, fellas.

[mr.jameswoods]

who's ever said he was a GREAT pass rusher? Most people give him credit for beign what he is, a very good all around NFL DE...your consistency argument is pretty stupid, considering one of his 3 sack seasons was his rookie yr, and the other was the yr coming off a severely broken leg...to say he isnt double teamed consistently shows you dont watch the games either, because he does...and he does what he does without much help from the scheme or the RDE spot...

David

Shaun Ellis had 8.5 sacks during his rookie year. According to you Greg Ellis is better than Shaun Ellis. If Shaun can get 8.5 sacks during his rookie year why couldn't Greg Ellis?

To excuse Greg Ellis for getting only 3 sacks because he was a rookie is rather weak considering he was the 8th overall pick. Dwight Freeny had 13 sacks during his rookie year and he was the 11th overall pick. You are just providing excuse after excuse after excuse.......

[dbair1967]

My thing is, why to people constantly bring his name up like he is the reason our defense sucks or something. Try looking at Wiley, Carson, our LB'ers, our secondary, etc.....

Ellis is an above average DE who can get to the QB but isn't a great pass rusher. He will get you 7+ sacks a year, give or take a sack. He is one of the few DL we have who seems to swat passess down at the LOS as well, not to mention he is solid against the run.

Ellis has 8 passes defensed on the last team stat sheet I saw...leads the team in that category...

David

[dbair1967]

Shaun Ellis had 8.5 sacks during his rookie year. According to you Greg Ellis is better than Shaun Ellis. If Shaun can get 8.5 sacks during his rookie year why couldn't Greg Ellis?

To excuse Greg Ellis for getting only 3 sacks because he was a rookie is rather weak considering he was the 8th overall pick. Dwight Freeny had 13 sacks during his rookie year and he was the 11th overall pick. You are just providing excuse after excuse after excuse.......

honestly you arnt even worth arguing with anymore...

David

[mr.jameswoods]

honestly you arnt even worth arguing with anymore...

David

Weak, you have to resort to personal attacks when you can't back up your claims with stats and evidence like I did. Why don't you answer my post with evidence instead of personal attacks? Are you capable of doing that or are you going to respond with cheap insults again? Is that the best you can do?

[dbair1967]

Weak, you have to resort to personal attacks when you can't back up your claims with stats and evidence like I did. Why don't you answer my post with evidence instead of personal attacks? Are you capable of doing that or are you going to respond with cheap insults again? Is that the best you can do?

look, there have been boo-koos of posts refuting your ridiculous take on Greg Ellis, you just choose to ignore them...its like beating a dead horse, and thats why I said you arnt worth arguing with anymore...you obviously dont like him, fine...but he's still a good player and for the money we pay him and the results we get in return, an incredible bargain

David

[mr.jameswoods]

look, there have been boo-koos of posts refuting your ridiculous take on Greg Ellis, you just choose to ignore them...its like beating a dead horse, and thats why I said you arnt worth arguing with anymore...you obviously dont like him, fine...but he's still a good player and for the money we pay him and the results we get in return, an incredible bargain

David

Instead of resorting to personal attacks, why don't you explain how Shaun Ellis got 8.5 sacks as a rookie but it's okay for Greg Ellis to get 3 sacks as a rookie. The only thing that is ridiculous is how you keep avoiding the subject. If you can't hang, I understand, just say so and I will leave you alone. Now are you going to respond with more insults or can you debate like an adult?

[big dog cowboy]

Ellis is a average pass rusher and above average run stopper. He plays smart and plays hard every down. I don't think we could ask for a whole lot more.

Especially since he wasn't a top 10 draft pick, right? Those are supposed to be impact players. Right???

Oops. :eek:

[jimmy40]

I'm still waiting for dbair to explain how it's okay for a top 10 pick like Greg Ellis to get 3 sacks because he was a rookie when you have rookies like Shaun Ellis, Julius Peppers, Dwight Freeney and Simeon Rice eclipsing that total as rookies

Should be interesting.Maybe because he plays for the Cowboys and they don't?

[dbair1967]

Instead of resorting to personal attacks, why don't you explain how Shaun Ellis got 8.5 sacks as a rookie but it's okay for Greg Ellis to get 3 sacks as a rookie. The only thing that is ridiculous is how you keep avoiding the subject. If you can't hang, I understand, just say so and I will leave you alone. Now are you going to respond with more insults or can you debate like an adult?

who cares what they got as rookies? thats was 6 and 5 years ago...I am looking at what the players are now, and the recent numbers plus my own eyes tell me Cowboys Ellis is a better all around DE than the Jets Ellis, and doesnt cost anywhere near as much...Charles Haley had one yr for us when he got 4 sacks, what do you think of that? are you going to try and tell me now that Haley sux? Tony Tolbert only had one yr with double digit sacks, did he suck?

David

[AceofSpades]

Weak, you have to resort to personal attacks when you can't back up your claims with stats and evidence like I did. Why don't you answer my post with evidence instead of personal attacks? Are you capable of doing that or are you going to respond with cheap insults again? Is that the best you can do?
Where were the personal attacks? :confused:

[dbair1967]

I'm still waiting for dbair to explain how it's okay for a top 10 pick like Greg Ellis to get 3 sacks because he was a rookie when you have rookies like Shaun Ellis, Julius Peppers, Dwight Freeney and Simeon Rice eclipsing that total as rookies

Should be interesting.

honestly, what is it you are arguing about? What point are you trying to make? That because Ellis only had 3 sacks in a season 6 yrs ago that he sux today?

Jason Taylor had 5 sacks as a rookie and only 2 1/2 his 3rd yr in the league...Michael Strahan didnt get double digit sacks until his FIFTH year in the league and only had 5 1/2 his first two years in the league...

I really dont see what you are arguing about, which is why I've said two or three times now its a waste of time...nothing you can argue takes away from the fact that Ellis is a good all around DE, the past 3 season he has 7 1/2, 8 and 8 sacks, with 5 games to go this yr...he plays the run extremely well and has a great knack for batting down balls, with 17 in his last 27 games...the "other" Ellis has only 3 in his last 25 games...Grant Wistrom has 17 in his CAREER...Ellis also has 12 forced fumble in his career, Shaun Ellis has only 5...Grant Wistrom has only 6...

there are alot of reasons why some players mount bugegr sack numbers than others...things like scheme and supporting cast have a huge impact on sack totals...the fact is we play a very conservative DL scheme here and Ellis has never played opp a good pass rushing DE...Leonard Little in St Louis and John Abraham of the Jets are two of the premier RDE's in football, if you think they dont impact the play around them then you truly are missing the boat...

and finally, here are the numbers for Greg Ellis, Shaun Ellis and Grant Wistrom:

S Ellis:

DEFENSIVE STATS

Year Team G Total Tckl Ast Sacks Int Yds Avg Lg TD Pass Def
2000 New York Jets 16 53 39.0 14 8.5 1 1 1.0 1 0 2
2001 New York Jets 16 39 27.0 12 5 0 0 0.0 0 0 2
2002 New York Jets 16 40 30.0 10 4 0 0 0.0 0 0 4
2003 New York Jets 16 69 47.0 22 12.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 0
2004 New York Jets 9 33 18.0 15 3.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 3
TOTAL 73 234 161.0 73 33.5 1 1 1.0 1 0 11


FUMBLES

Year Team G Fum Lost Fum Forced Own Rec Opp Rec Yards Tot Rec TD
2000 New York Jets 16 0 0 1 0 2 2 2 0
2001 New York Jets 16 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
2002 New York Jets 16 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
2003 New York Jets 16 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
2004 New York Jets 9 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
TOTAL 73 0 0 5 0 2 2 2 0

Wistrom:

DEFENSIVE STATS

Year Team G Total Tckl Ast Sacks Int Yds Avg Lg TD Pass Def
1998 St. Louis Rams 13 24 18.0 6 3 0 0 0.0 0 0 0
1999 St. Louis Rams 16 39 32.0 7 6.5 2 131 65.5 91 2 4
2000 St. Louis Rams 16 63 50.0 13 11 0 0 0.0 0 0 5
2001 St. Louis Rams 15 54 44.0 10 9 2 -4 -2.0 0 0 2
2002 St. Louis Rams 15 47 44.0 3 4.5 1 2 2.0 2 0 3
2003 St. Louis Rams 16 60 49.0 11 7.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 1
2004 Seattle Seahawks 6 26 19.0 7 2.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 2
TOTAL 97 313 256.0 57 44 5 129 25.8 91 2 17


FUMBLES

Year Team G Fum Lost Fum Forced Own Rec Opp Rec Yards Tot Rec TD
1998 St. Louis Rams 13 0 0 0 0 1 4 1 0
1999 St. Louis Rams 16 1 1 0 0 1 31 1 0
2000 St. Louis Rams 16 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
2001 St. Louis Rams 15 0 0 2 0 1 17 1 0
2002 St. Louis Rams 15 0 0 1 0 2 1 2 0
2003 St. Louis Rams 16 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0
2004 Seattle Seahawks 6 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0
TOTAL 97 1 1 6 0 7 53 7

Greg Ellis:

1998 Dallas Cowboys 16 36 25.0 11 3 0 0 0.0 0 0 5
1999 Dallas Cowboys 13 42 34.0 8 7.5 1 87 87.0 87 1 2
2000 Dallas Cowboys 16 52 39.0 13 3 0 0 0.0 0 0 1
2001 Dallas Cowboys 16 60 45.0 15 6 0 0 0.0 0 0 5
2002 Dallas Cowboys 15 66 49.0 17 7.5 1 0 0.0 0 0 2
2003 Dallas Cowboys 16 48 33.0 15 8 0 0 0.0 0 0 9
2004 Dallas Cowboys 11 40 30.0 10 8 0 0 0.0 0 0 8
TOTAL 103 344 255.0 89 43 2 87 43.5 87 1 32


FUMBLES

Year Team G Fum Lost Fum Forced Own Rec Opp Rec Yards Tot Rec TD
1998 Dallas Cowboys 16 0 0 1 0 1 2 1 0
1999 Dallas Cowboys 13 0 0 2 0 1 98 1 1
2000 Dallas Cowboys 16 0 0 0 0 2 0 2 0
2001 Dallas Cowboys 16 0 0 3 0 2 0 2 0
2002 Dallas Cowboys 15 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0
2003 Dallas Cowboys 16 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0
2004 Dallas Cowboys 11 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
TOTAL 103 0 0 12 0 6 100 6 1

David

[dbair1967]

Where were the personal attacks? :confused:

I kinda wondered the same thing...

cool sig by the way Ace

David

[mr.jameswoods]

who cares what they got as rookies? thats was 6 and 5 years ago...I am looking at what the players are now, and the recent numbers plus my own eyes tell me Cowboys Ellis is a better all around DE than the Jets Ellis, and doesnt cost anywhere near as much...Charles Haley had one yr for us when he got 4 sacks, what do you think of that? are you going to try and tell me now that Haley sux? Tony Tolbert only had one yr with double digit sacks, did he suck?

David


You made excuses for Greg Ellis' lack of double digit sacks by saying he has been consistent over his career. If you are claiming a player like Ellis has been consistent over his career then you have to account for his rookie season too. You don't just count the last 4 years because you feel like it.

The fact is Greg Ellis has not achieved 7-8 sacks every year he has been in the league. Therefore, Greg Ellis has not been consistent like you claim he has been. He has been in the league for 7 seasons. During his rookie year, he had 3 sacks. His rookie status is no excuse for his poor sack totals. And the reason why it's not an appropriate excuse is because other high first round defensive ends had successful rookie years like Shaun Ellis and Dwight Freeny.

Charles Haley also had seasons with double digit sacks. I'm sure if Haley had Greg Ellis stats over his first 7 years, people would criticize him too.

[mr.jameswoods]

Maybe because he plays for the Cowboys and they don't?

Based on his arguments thus far, that makes the most sense.

[mr.jameswoods]

honestly, what is it you are arguing about? What point are you trying to make? That because Ellis only had 3 sacks in a season 6 yrs ago that he sux today?

Jason Taylor had 5 sacks as a rookie and only 2 1/2 his 3rd yr in the league...Michael Strahan didnt get double digit sacks until his FIFTH year in the league and only had 5 1/2 his first two years in the league...

Listen, you made excuses for Greg Ellis' lack of a double digit sack season by rationalizing that he has been consistent over his career.That's my point. If you are going to make a claim like that, make sure you are accurate. And you were not accurate. Greg Ellis had two 3 sack seasons and one 6 sacks season out of 7 years. So you are not being very accurate with your statements. It's not accurate to say that he has consistently gotten 7-8 sacks per season when 3 out of those 7 seasons have accounted for 6 sacks or less.

I really dont see what you are arguing about, which is why I've said two or three times now its a waste of time...nothing you can argue takes away from the fact that Ellis is a good all around DE, the past 3 season he has 7 1/2, 8 and 8 sacks, with 5 games to go this yr...he plays the run extremely well and has a great knack for batting down balls, with 17 in his last 27 games...the "other" Ellis has only 3 in his last 25 games...Grant Wistrom has 17 in his CAREER...Ellis also has 12 forced fumble in his career, Shaun Ellis has only 5...Grant Wistrom has only 6...

We were arguing about Ellis as a pass rusher. I already acknowledged he is a good DE overall. That's not he issue. Thus far, Shaun Ellis and Grant Wistrom have proven to be better pass rushers than Greg Ellis.

there are alot of reasons why some players mount bugegr sack numbers than others...things like scheme and supporting cast have a huge impact on sack totals...the fact is we play a very conservative DL scheme here and Ellis has never played opp a good pass rushing DE...Leonard Little in St Louis and John Abraham of the Jets are two of the premier RDE's in football, if you think they dont impact the play around them then you truly are missing the boat...

You did it again. You made a claim without investigating it properly. Case in point, you claim or imply that a DE needs a supporting cast to acquire high sack totals. Did you know that Michael Strahan and other defensive ends are getting a lot of sacks without playing alongside a great supporting cast? Who does Leonard Little play alongside in St. Louis? i could list 5 or 6 other defensive ends who are excelling despite not playing alongside a great supporting cast on the DL. What was their excuse? How are they doing it?

And what does our scheme have to do with 3rd and long? Why does our defensive line fail to get a sack or apply pressure to opposing offenses on third and long? That has nothing to do with scheme.

[AdamJT13]

This might be the lamest thread ever. I'd expect a troll to start something like this, but not a supposed Cowboys fan.

Exactly what was the point of it? To diminish Greg Ellis' ability as a defensive end? To bait another forum member into an argument, when the instigator has already made up his mind?

Honestly, I don't get it. I'm almost ashamed that I read it.

[mr.jameswoods]

This might be the lamest thread ever. I'd expect a troll to start something like this, but not a supposed Cowboys fan.

Exactly what was the point of it? To diminish Greg Ellis' ability as a defensive end? To bait another forum member into an argument, when the instigator has already made up his mind?

Honestly, I don't get it. I'm almost ashamed that I read it.

You can use my name Adam; it's okay. Likewise, let's be a little more candid here. You like Greg Ellis and you have defended him in the past which is why you think this is such a lame thread. Of course, you will think it's lame because you think highly of Ellis. The only thing that is lame is how anyone can argue that Greg Ellis poses a threat as a pass rusher. It amazes me how threads one disagrees with are lame and those opinions who one agrees with is insightful. It's called partisanship and nothing more.

And my question was serious but certain members took too much freedom in taking cheap shots at me instead of answering the question sincerely. This is why I responded to particular accounts.

[jimmy40]

This might be the lamest thread ever. I'd expect a troll to start something like this, but not a supposed Cowboys fan.

Exactly what was the point of it? To diminish Greg Ellis' ability as a defensive end? To bait another forum member into an argument, when the instigator has already made up his mind?

Honestly, I don't get it. I'm almost ashamed that I read it.You joined in a thread your almost ashamed you read? You must be having a hard time coming up with some stats to prop up Ellis on this one. I bet that's what your really ashamed about.

[AdamJT13]

You can use my name Adam; it's okay. Likewise, let's be a little more candid here. You like Greg Ellis and you have defended him in the past which is why you think this is such a lame thread. Of course, you will think it's lame because you think highly of Ellis. The only thing that is lame is how anyone can argue that Greg Ellis poses a threat as a pass rusher. It amazes me how threads one disagrees with are lame and those opinions who one agrees with is insightful. It's called partisanship and nothing more.

And my question was serious but certain members took too much freedom in taking cheap shots at me instead of answering the question sincerely. This is why I responded to particular accounts.

Sorry, but I've never said Ellis was a great pass rusher. You must have me confused with someone else -- although since I don't remember reading anyone ever claim that Ellis was a "great pass rusher," I have no idea whom that might be.

[Tobal]

EFFORT. .............

I would give all the effort in the world it's not gonna make me a great pass rusher

[mr.jameswoods]

Sorry, but I've never said Ellis was a great pass rusher. You must have me confused with someone else -- although since I don't remember reading anyone ever claim that Ellis was a "great pass rusher," I have no idea whom that might be.

Funny, I didn't accuse you of saying Ellis was a great pass rusher; I just said you thought highly of him.

But you are right. No one ever claims Ellis is a great pass rusher. You and others just happens "take issue when anyone claims Ellis is weak against the pass." Forgive me, the distinction is so profound.

[Randy White]

even I am getting tired of this one.

:D

[Chuck 54]

You dont think theres ever enough 3rd and long scenarios over the course of a season, JD, to where any of our Ends should be in nothing much more than "pin your ears back" mode? Thus oweing to more sacks regardless of 1st and 2nd down scheme?

I too think he's a fine player for what he does. But he might as well be a Tony Tolbert or Jim Jeffcoat type player. If you dont have a Haley type to compliment them then you arent going to raise a bunch of hell in the backfield.
Greg Ellis can only wish he's as good as Tony Tolbert or Jim Jeffcoat...he's NOT and stats prove that. Tolbert and Jeffcoat played for good teams and some really poor ones, but they still made plays in the backfield and put consistant pressure on the QB. Ellis is workmanlike, and that's all....If I could put together an NFC team, he'd never even be an afterthought at DE....frankly, he wouldn't even make my NFC EAst team.

[Chuck 54]

This might be the lamest thread ever. I'd expect a troll to start something like this, but not a supposed Cowboys fan.

Exactly what was the point of it? To diminish Greg Ellis' ability as a defensive end? To bait another forum member into an argument, when the instigator has already made up his mind?

Honestly, I don't get it. I'm almost ashamed that I read it.
You must be the one in a poor mood today...the play of any player on the roster is a legitimate topic of discussion...we talk about Vinny every week...why should Ellis be exempt...we've discussed him before.

And yes, many of us think he's average at best....I'd love nothing more than to replace him at the same time we replace Wiley...two decent DE's would be great. Ellis is a great guy who gives effort and doesn't cheat the fan, but I wouldn't mention him in the same breath with any of the Cowboys great D-linemen of the past....He doesn't rank up there with Haley, Tolbert, Jeffcoat, TooTall, Martin, or even Larry Cole....He's just a guy, like George Andre.

[AdamJT13]

Funny, I didn't accuse you of saying Ellis was a great pass rusher; I just said you thought highly of him.

But you are right. No one ever claims Ellis is a great pass rusher.

Do you even know what you're arguing, or with whom you're arguing? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

If, as you admit, no one ever claims Ellis is a great pass rusher, then why did you start a thread asking people to explain why Ellis is a great pass rusher?


You and others just happens "take issue when anyone claims Ellis is weak against the pass." Forgive me, the distinction is so profound.

Of course there's a difference between being great and being weak. Are you now claiming that Ellis is a weak pass rusher? If so, I'd certainly take issue with that, as would any rational person who follows the Cowboys.

[silver]

Greg Ellis can only wish he's as good as Tony Tolbert or Jim Jeffcoat...he's NOT and stats prove that. Tolbert and Jeffcoat played for good teams and some really poor ones, but they still made plays in the backfield and put consistant pressure on the QB. Ellis is workmanlike, and that's all....If I could put together an NFC team, he'd never even be an afterthought at DE....frankly, he wouldn't even make my NFC EAst team.

Tolbert had Haley across from him. If you go by stats only then Haley was a horrible pass rusher since he didn't get that many sacks while he was here. Tolbert numbers jumped with the arrival of Haley.

[SuspectCorner]

I won't respond to this. I genuinely want you to explain to me how Greg Ellis is a great pass rusher? I'm not talking his run stopping abilities. I'm not talking about his overall value to the team. I'm not talking about his monetary value. I'm talking about his ability to rush the passer and that's all.

Please explain to me how Greg Ellis is an asset as a pass rusher. I just find it hard to believe how anyone can argue Ellis is a threat as a pass rusher when he has failed to notch double digit sacks in 7 seasons in the NFL. He has not been consistent either. He has two seasons with 3 sacks and one with 6 sacks. He does not get double teamed on a consistent basis so you won't convince me of that.

I won't respond to this.

How is Greg Ellis a threat as a pass rusher?
okay, okay.... so ellis is NOT a GREAT passrusher. so we should kick him to the curb? rushing the passer is NOT the only responsibility of a DE. they also need to tackle runners and interrupt the passing game in other ways, too. greg ellis was a pretty good college passrusher. he is a pretty good pro passrusher. but most importantly, he is a VERY well-rounded DE. he doesn't possess the speed and litany of moves that take your breath away. but his stats are MORE than decent. IF dallas can ever bookend him with a real edge-rushing DEMON, greg's sack stats will likely climb as well. there are 32 teams in the NFL. there are certainly NOT 32 great passrushing ends in the NFL. for his career to date, greg has had the misfortune of lining up with bums like ekuban and wiley. a huge DT that can DRIVE into the backfield - flushes QBs to the ends. dallas hasn't had that guy since lett was in his prime. if dallas could get ANOTHER guy with even greg's talent - the rush would be much improved. if they can land a big strong DT to line up next to glover - the rush would be much improved. if dallas can do both the rush will be daunting. and if the ultimate happens, and dallas can land the big DT and a PREMIERE passrusher - the secondary is automatically much better and dallas is on the road to REALLY contending. yeah, greg ellis is NOT a great passrusher. but he IS better than most of the DEs starting in the league.

[mr.jameswoods]

okay, okay.... so ellis is NOT a GREAT passrusher. so we should kick him to the curb? rushing the passer is NOT the only responsibility of a DE. they also need to tackle runners and interrupt the passing game in other ways, too. greg ellis was a pretty good college passrusher. he is a pretty good pro passrusher. but most importantly, he is a VERY well-rounded DE. he doesn't possess the speed and litany of moves that take your breath away. but his stats are MORE than decent. IF dallas can ever bookend him with a real edge-rushing DEMON, greg's sack stats will likely climb as well. there are 32 teams in the NFL. there are certainly NOT 32 great passrushing ends in the NFL. for his career to date, greg has had the misfortune of lining up with bums like ekuban and wiley. a huge DT that can DRIVE into the backfield - flushes QBs to the ends. dallas hasn't had that guy since lett was in his prime. if dallas could get ANOTHER guy with even greg's talent - the rush would be much improved. if they can land a big strong DT to line up next to glover - the rush would be much improved. if dallas can do both the rush will be daunting. and if the ultimate happens, and dallas can land the big DT and a PREMIERE passrusher - the secondary is automatically much better and dallas is on the road to REALLY contending. yeah, greg ellis is NOT a great passrusher. but he IS better than most of the DEs starting in the league.


He is a good overall DE. I would never want to get rid of him. At the same time, I don't see Ellis as a weapon. I don't brag about Greg Ellis when talking about our defense. Wouldn't it be cool to have TWO stud DE's starting that is capable of putting pressure on the QB. It may be unlikely but it would be great if we could do it.

[SuspectCorner]

He is a good overall DE. I would never want to get rid of him. At the same time, I don't see Ellis as a weapon. I don't brag about Greg Ellis when talking about our defense. Wouldn't it be cool to have TWO stud DE's starting that is capable of putting pressure on the QB. It may be unlikely but it would be great if we could do it.
i get where you're coming from. it would make the passrush awesome - but is it neccessary to have two stud edgerushers? greg is a fine DE in his own right. i've seen too many teams to count where they had ONE awesome edge-guy that ultimately complimented the WHOLE dang line. teams need the greg ellis types. i think he will be a great compliment to a legit sackmaster.

[mr.jameswoods]

Do you even know what you're arguing, or with whom you're arguing? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Why are you still here? You already said this is a lame thread. It's so painful for you to read this remember? You are in no position to question someone else's position on this thread. If you have something to say, I suggest you say it instead of pretending be above the fray. The elitist facade is getting old. You are as opinionated and human as the rest of us.

I will translate for you since the finer aspects of sarcasm seem to be beyond you. Greg Ellis fans such as yourself do not come right out and admit he is a threat as a pass rusher because that would just make you appear foolish. However, whenever someone such as myself questions his pass rushing ability, people like you get defensive. I have yet to hear fans such as yourself admit that Greg Ellis is not very good at putting pressure on the QB. I didn't start this debate today. Dbair wrote a post saying how Greg Ellis is better than Shaun Ellis, which is ridiculous. Unfortunately that post escalated into this one.


If so, I'd certainly take issue with that, as would any rational person who follows the Cowboys.

I absolutely think Greg Ellis is a weak pass rusher and if I could get a DE who could rush the passer better than Ellis, I would take him in a heart beat. I think I'm a rational fan just not a homer. I like Ellis. He is a nice guy and he puts forth great effort, but his fine effort and boy scout image don't threaten any offense.

If, as you admit, no one ever claims Ellis is a great pass rusher, then why did you start a thread asking people to explain why Ellis is a great pass rusher?

I did ask the Ellis fans this question with sincerity. However, when they chose to respond with personal insults as opposed to a response supported by statistical evidenc and facts, I decided to get involved.

[SuspectCorner]

Here is the thing though. Shaun Ellis is not as good as John Abraham. However, I don't think Greg Ellis is even as good as Shaun Ellis and many #2 guys like him.
john abraham would be an awesome acquisition. but the problem is, once a team develops a great passrushing end - they are generally loathe to lose him unless: they are cap strapped, they have more than one of these guys, age or injury concerns, or the player has become a distraction to the team. my gut tells me that shaun ellis and greg ellis would be a daunting tandem. but ya just never know for sure how the chemistry will work out. shaun has played with a john abraham type. greg never has. maybe the reason shaun looks better to you - is in fact john abraham.

[mr.jameswoods]

john abraham would be an awesome acquisition. but the problem is, once a team develops a great passrushing end - they are generally loathe to lose him unless: they are cap strapped, they have more than one of these guys, age or injury concerns, or the player has become a distraction to the team. my gut tells me that shaun ellis and greg ellis would be a daunting tandem. but ya just never know for sure how the chemistry will work out. shaun has played with a john abraham type. greg never has. maybe the reason shaun looks better to you - is in fact john abraham.

People have made that argument before but I don't buy it. And that's because there are many DE's in the league that are getting their sacks without the presence of great teammates on their respective defensive line. Michael Strahan is one example. Leonard Little is another example. There are just too many examples of DE's in the league that have compiled a lot of stats without great teammates. And besides, even if they have great teammates, how does that help a DE beat his tackle? You can have Strahan on the other side, but if you can't beat the right tackle on your side, that isn't Strahan's fault.

[SuspectCorner]

People have made that argument before but I don't buy it. And that's because there are many DE's in the league that are getting their sacks without the presence of great teammates on their respective defensive line. Michael Strahan is one example. Leonard Little is another example. There are just too many examples of DE's in the league that have compiled a lot of stats without great teammates. And besides, even if they have great teammates, how does that help a DE beat his tackle? You can have Strahan on the other side, but if you can't beat the right tackle on your side, that isn't Strahan's fault.
how many times have you seen a QB flee from the initial penetration only to end up in the arms of another rusher? for me... oh... about 37,589 times.

[mr.jameswoods]

how many times have you seen a QB flee from the initial penetration only to end up in the arms of another rusher? for me... oh... about 37,589 times.

I have seen it happen this year when Glover penetrates the line which helps Ellis on occassion but it's not going to give someone 12.5 sacks in a season. I think we need to start holding players responsible for their stats instead of looking for scapegoats.

[mr.jameswoods]

Tolbert had Haley across from him. If you go by stats only then Haley was a horrible pass rusher since he didn't get that many sacks while he was here. Tolbert numbers jumped with the arrival of Haley.

Haley had 12.5 sacks in 1994 and 10.5 sacks in 1995 playing for us.

[Ken]

Haley had 12.5 sacks in 1994 and 10.5 sacks in 1995 playing for us.


And what will you say when Ellis ends this season with 10 to 12?

Look, Ellis isn't a great pass rusher, but he is our best by a wide margin. He is also our best defensive player and most consistant.

You can bag on him all you want about his sack numbers, but sacks are overated. What about the dozens of times a qb is rushed or hit as he throws. Those are just as important. Ellis has had 3-4 every game this year.

Let's not forget about his 2nd year where he was on his way to 10 sacks only suffer that horrific broken leg late in the season. Let us also not forget the steel rod that was inserted into his shin, as well as the golf ball sized calcification deposit on his shin. His third year he clearly was not 100 percent. That would explain on of his 3 sack years.

I'm with Adam though, this is silly.

[mr.jameswoods]

And what will you say when Ellis ends this season with 10 to 12?

Look, Ellis isn't a great pass rusher, but he is our best by a wide margin. He is also our best defensive player and most consistant.

You can bag on him all you want about his sack numbers, but sacks are overated. What about the dozens of times a qb is rushed or hit as he throws. Those are just as important. Ellis has had 3-4 every game this year.

Let's not forget about his 2nd year where he was on his way to 10 sacks only suffer that horrific broken leg late in the season. Let us also not forget the steel rod that was inserted into his shin, as well as the golf ball sized calcification deposit on his shin. His third year he clearly was not 100 percent. That would explain on of his 3 sack years.

I'm with Adam though, this is silly.


I will give Ellis his props but what will you do if he fails to get it? And I agree with you about the sad injury he sufferred during his second year but injuries are a part of the game. Think of all the failed top 10 picks like Kijana Carter and Andrew Wadsworth who fell to injury. It doesn't change the fact that their game was hampered by their injuries however tragic it may have been.

I haven't seen Ellis put the type of pressure on a QB like you mentioned. I think Glover is still our best pass rusher. He is the only guy that I see who creates any kind of havoc on the DL.

I agree this thread is silly but then one make that argument for this entire forum. We discuss every other subject related to the Cowboys. i don't see why Ellis should be hands off simply because he is a DE and not a rookie QB.

[Dale]

I will give Ellis his props but what will you do if he fails to get it? And I agree with you about the sad injury he sufferred during his second year but injuries are a part of the game. Think of all the failed top 10 picks like Kijana Carter and Andrew Wadsworth who fell to injury. It doesn't change the fact that their game was hampered by their injuries however tragic it may have been.

I haven't seen Ellis put the type of pressure on a QB like you mentioned. I think Glover is still our best pass rusher. He is the only guy that I see who creates any kind of havoc on the DL.

I agree this thread is silly but then one make that argument for this entire forum. We discuss every other subject related to the Cowboys. i don't see why Ellis should be hands off simply because he is a DE and not a rookie QB.

James, to play devil's advocate with you...if Glover is our most disruptive defensive linemen, why do the stats not reflect that type of performance? I realize defensive tackles rarely gather the sort of sack numbers that ends get, but Glover is having a rather quiet season based on his performance (in sacks) in years past.

[mr.jameswoods]

James, to play devil's advocate with you...if Glover is our most disruptive defensive linemen, why do the stats not reflect that type of performance? I realize defensive tackles rarely gather the sort of sack numbers that ends get, but Glover is having a rather quiet season based on his performance (in sacks) in years past.

Fair enough because Glover has reached the sacred pinnacle of double digit sacks before and he is a disruptive force. I see it when I watch the Cowboys on Sunday and so does the media, coaches and fans. I don't think Glover makes the Pro Bowl out of pity. I think fans are intelligent enough to see that this guy just drives lineman back and creates havoc when necessary.

BUT

I can concede that Greg Ellis is the best pass rusher on our team this year. The stats certainly warrant that. I don't personally believe it based on what I'm seeing on Sunday but maybe my eyes are fooling me. You can at least make an intelligent case suggesting Ellis is better than Glover this year so I can't completely disavow such a proposition. But based on what I see on Sundays, Ellis is very average in his pursuit of the QB. He doesn't have a lot of moves and isn't very quick when he is held up. It seems like the sacks he does get are coverage sacks or ones due to Glover's penetration on occasion. Rarely if ever do you see Ellis just beat his man one on one the way Charles Haley used to for example.

[Dale]

Fair enough because Glover has reached the sacred pinnacle of double digit sacks before and he is a disruptive force. I see it when I watch the Cowboys on Sunday and so does the media, coaches and fans. I don't think Glover makes the Pro Bowl out of pity. I think fans are intelligent enough to see that this guy just drives lineman back and creates havoc when necessary.

BUT

I can concede that Greg Ellis is the best pass rusher on our team this year. The stats certainly warrant that. I don't personally believe it based on what I'm seeing on Sunday but maybe my eyes are fooling me. You can at least make an intelligent case suggesting Ellis is better than Glover this year so I can't completely disavow such a proposition. But based on what I see on Sundays, Ellis is very average in his pursuit of the QB. He doesn't have a lot of moves and isn't very quick when he is held up. It seems like the sacks he does get are coverage sacks or ones due to Glover's penetration on occasion. Rarely if ever do you see Ellis just beat his man one on one the way Charles Haley used to for example.

Oh I agree that Ellis isn't a pass rushing "force." It's as if he's a better run defender than pass rusher, which is probably why Zimmer likes him so much. But I think some amount of skill is needed to get 8 sacks, as he has now done the last two seasons. It's amazing the gap between Ellis' number of sacks and the Cowboys' next sack leader at the defensive end position. But I'd agree that speaks more to the level of ineptitude of Wiley and the likes than it does Ellis' skill.

[Dale]

Greg Ellis can only wish he's as good as Tony Tolbert or Jim Jeffcoat...he's NOT and stats prove that. Tolbert and Jeffcoat played for good teams and some really poor ones, but they still made plays in the backfield and put consistant pressure on the QB. Ellis is workmanlike, and that's all....If I could put together an NFC team, he'd never even be an afterthought at DE....frankly, he wouldn't even make my NFC EAst team.

I think you might be overrating Tolbert a tad. I think Ellis could well be deemed a "poor man's" Tony Tolbert when looking at their respective careers.

In nine seasons, Tolbert had 59 sacks (6.5 per year). In seven seasons, Ellis has 43 sacks (6.1 per year). Tolbert was only a one-time Pro Bowler, in 1996 when he exceeded 10 sacks for the only time in his career. In fact, other than that season, 8.5 sacks was Tolbert's career high.

[Zman5]

He is a good overall DE. I would never want to get rid of him. At the same time, I don't see Ellis as a weapon. I don't brag about Greg Ellis when talking about our defense. Wouldn't it be cool to have TWO stud DE's starting that is capable of putting pressure on the QB. It may be unlikely but it would be great if we could do it.


I would wrather have four 7-8 sack guys then 2 12-14 sack guys. In another word, I much wrather have four Greg Ellises then 2 Jevone Kearses.

Why? Well the obvious is that if one of two studs get injured, you are screwed. Second is, with FA it's easier to replace the 7-8 sack guys.


I think thats better way to spend your cap dollars and in the long run, you get better production. New England is a perfect example. They don't have any "super star" type of guys but what they have is bunch of above average players.

[Chuck 54]

Tolbert had Haley across from him. If you go by stats only then Haley was a horrible pass rusher since he didn't get that many sacks while he was here. Tolbert numbers jumped with the arrival of Haley.
Not at the end of his career...he became Haley.

[Chuck 54]

I think you might be overrating Tolbert a tad. I think Ellis could well be deemed a "poor man's" Tony Tolbert when looking at their respective careers.

In nine seasons, Tolbert had 59 sacks (6.5 per year). In seven seasons, Ellis has 43 sacks (6.1 per year). Tolbert was only a one-time Pro Bowler, in 1996 when he exceeded 10 sacks for the only time in his career. In fact, other than that season, 8.5 sacks was Tolbert's career high.
I remember when Haley wasn't getting all the sacks and they started reporting QB pressures...Haley had a ton of QB pressures every year...I'd be willing to bet, without doing the research of course :D , that Tolbert spent more time in the backfield after Haley was gone than Ellis does.

[Sarge]

Who said he was?

That's my question as well. Where is this all coming from??

[jterrell]

I would give all the effort in the world it's not gonna make me a great pass rusher
If you happened to be 6'5" and 280 pounds and gave all out effort every play if would do worlds to help.
There are plenty of DE's who take plays off then bust through for a sack and end up looking pretty on the stat sheet.
What sets Ellis apart is the effort play to play.
Fans may marginalize that but coaches and teammates do not.

[Tio]

I absolutely think Greg Ellis is a weak pass rusher and if I could get a DE who could rush the passer better than Ellis, I would take him in a heart beat. I think I'm a rational fan just not a homer. I like Ellis. He is a nice guy and he puts forth great effort, but his fine effort and boy scout image don't threaten any offense.



.I disagree with this. Ellis isn't a great passrusher, but anyone who can get 7+ sacks with no help in this scheme, isn't weak against the pass. He is a very good 2nd de. He is asked to be our premeire pass rusher, thats why you and other fans don't apreciate all the things he does for us.

[jterrell]

A few notes.

1st I moved this because James couldn't stick to his initial word and avoid posting beyond the initial question AND more largely because denigrating a Cowboy who has performed well enough to likely be the defensive MVP of the team is innane and self-loathing. No one attacking Cowboys players on a Cowboys board should feel any expectation beyond sharp retorts.

2nd Tony Tolbert was a solid player. A guy who should get more respect. Greg Ellis is a similar player but one who could pass Tolbert easily over the next few seasons. In fact it wouldn't be a stretch to say Ellis is already a better pass rusher statistically. Tolbert played with Jeffcoat and Charles Haley. Ellis has had some verifiable scrubs. Tolbert had 1 season of over 8.5 sacks and that came in his 9th year in the league. I am fairly certian Greg Ellis pass rush totals will be more impressive than Tolbert's when their career is said and done. The 6.1 to 6.5 sacks average is changing right now. Ellis is obviously over that and every sack raises his average. Another 3 sacks would give him that amount on average.

3rd. This nonsense wouldn't even exist if it werent for moronic media perceptions that got passed off to lazy fans. Lazy in the sense they don't watch the player and don't open their minds to changing opinions down the road. Greg Ellis is not a speed rusher so he will never be accepted by some as a pass rusher. If you can't run by the OT in a flash then the sack doesn't count for them. What Ellis does is use good technique and great strength to attack the OT and get to the QB. His sack and pressure totals have been good enough to make him a top 15 pass rusher. That isn't elite but the elite guys don't generally play the run at all. They come off the edge every play.

4th. The media attacks were based on Randy Moss, nothing else. It was easy to write about and talk about. But since 1998 the two teams have about the same number of wins and neither has won a title. The Vikes had better players around Moss for the most part with Culpepper, Carter early, Robert Smith then Michael Bennett/Onterrio Smith. Moss is a 4.2 guy and the ultimate playmaker. So the fantastic argument of the 8th pick should be a "playmaker" gets tossed about. Thats silly. How many 8th picks are actually big time playmakers? There are no where near 8 big time playmakers per season coming out of college and playmaking is quantitative and qualitative thus almost impossible to measure. Are Greg Ellis' batted balls and sacks big plays? If not what is?

Lastly, I have zero respect for the opinion that Greg Ellis is somehow lacking because he actually plays DE as an End should. He isn't a LB just rushing the passer like Terrell Suggs. He is a DE who has to play the run and actually take on an OT. There are clearly people who post more than they watch football and some of the takes make it obvious which are which. The stats seldom back their arguments but some mediot almost always argued their opinion at some point in the past.