If things were not bleak enough

[Kangaroo]

One of the worse days ever for job loses

Caterpilliar is cutting 20k

IBM 2,800

HomeDepot 7k

Philips Electronics 6k

Sprint 8k


here is a link to show a list of the differnt articles covering it

http://www.reuters.com/finance/news/archive/ousiv?date=today


Corporate ax hits over 70,000 in US, Europe


Some more info on the cuts

http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUKTRE50P50E20090126?virtualBrandChannel=10112

[zrinkill]

I gave 2 part timers 3 weeks pay today and told them I would call them if I needed anything in the future.


Hated to do it

Ironic thing is they are both big time Obamamites.

[Cajuncowboy]

I gave 2 part timers 3 weeks pay today and told them I would call them if I needed anything in the future.


Hated to do it

Ironic thing is they are both big time Obamamites.

Well they'd be the first ones I'd let go.


:D


Just kidding, folks.

[TheCount]

I gave 2 part timers 3 weeks pay today and told them I would call them if I needed anything in the future.


Hated to do it

Ironic thing is they are both big time Obamamites.

So did you hate to do it, or was it ironic? I can't figure out which one.

[Kangaroo]

So did you hate to do it, or was it ironic? I can't figure out which one.

Both

He did not want to do it but it was ironic that the change crowd got their change

[zrinkill]

So did you hate to do it, or was it ironic? I can't figure out which one.


Why does one clash with the other?

[ScipioCowboy]

So did you hate to do it, or was it ironic? I can't figure out which one.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[VCDefectors]

Remember what I told you guys a while back...this country is going to see a 20% or higher unemployment rate in 2009. Today's Black Monday is just the first day of an economic tailspin we haven't seen since the 1930s. It's gonna happen quick, too.

[Jon88]

This is the worst economy I've seen in over 25 years. Its horrendous.

On the bright side I just got a part-time job while I go to school so I'm good. This company is staying busy even in this mess. It's a courier company. Always need those.

[zrinkill]

This is the worst economy I've seen in over 25 years. Its horrendous.


Jon88
Age:25
Location:
USA


You are 25 years old ...... how long have you been "watching" the economy?

[Jon88]

Jon88
Age:25
Location:
USA


You are 25 years old ...... how long have you been "watching" the economy?

I was being sarcastic. I knew someone would do that.

[arglebargle]

Jon88
Age:25
Location:
USA


You are 25 years old ...... how long have you been "watching" the economy?

At least he didn't say in the last 30 years.....;)

[zrinkill]

At least he didn't say in the last 30 years.....;)

Well thats true.

[ThaBigP]

This is the worst economy I've seen in over 25 years. Its horrendous.

On the bright side I just got a part-time job while I go to school so I'm good. This company is staying busy even in this mess. It's a courier company. Always need those.

As a 36-year-old, I can tell you what a bad economy looks like. Not quite the Depression...but as a child I remember sitting in lines for gas with my mom, and in fact only being allowed to buy gas on "certain" days depending on the digits/letters in your license plate. You'd actually get a ticket for attempting to BUY GAS, and sent home by the nice officer patrolling the spiraling gas lines. Yes, it can get that bad.

[ninja]

Why all the doom and gloom? Just last week I saw a headline on CNN: "Obama raises a hand, lifts a nation." Just imagine what will happen when the chosen one raises both of his hands!

Where all all the Obama lovers, where have they gone? Why aren't they here to explain how the chosen one will fix everything?

[vta]

As a 40 year old, I can tell you...
What were we talking about again? Oh yeah. Economy.

Well I was just a rugrat for the atrocity of the Carter administration, and while I remember the annoying things, I didn't get the profound meanings of them or my mother's angst at the time.

This is certainly the most wary time of my adult-breadwinner life.

[bbgun]

I guess no one remembers 1982, 1992, or the economic climate right after 9/11. Has no one been out of a job before? If not, you've led a very lucky and gilded life.

[ThaBigP]

I guess no one remembers 1982, 1992, or the economic climate right after 9/11. Has no one been out of a job before? If not, you've led a very lucky and gilded life.

'92 was wimpy recession by recession standards (generally speaking of course; anybody who lost their job then would certainly disagree)...and 9/11 didn't do too much either except nearly bankrupt the airline industry for obvious reasons (if you were in the airline industry you're probably shooting blood out of your eyes reading this - but again I'm speaking generally). As for 9/11, there is a reason it didn't cause a big recession...we wouldn't let it. We were told to go out and SPEND! SPEND! SPEND! PUT IT ON THE CREDIT CARD! GET A HOME YOU CAN'T AFFORD! That was added on top of the SPEND! SPEND! SPEND! after the tech bubble popped. All of those credit bubbles finally popped just recently...that's the muck we're rolling around in now. We never "paid off the bill", we simply transferred the balance to a new national credit card, and we've maxed out our last one.

'82 rather sucked from what I can remember, but I couldn't have been laid off as I wasn't of working age then. The gas lines were the late-great disaster known as the late 70s under Carter.

[vta]

I guess no one remembers 1982, 1992, or the economic climate right after 9/11. Has no one been out of a job before? If not, you've led a very lucky and gilded life.

2 months after 9/11, I was given the heave-ho from an ISP that had a Web Design department. The department bit the dust and out-out-out I went.

I managed, but my situation is much different now, what with a little mouth to feed and body to clothe and etc. That bit of upheaval seemed a little different than this current one, also. Everyone is taking a beating now, even our corporate giants. A fly by night ISP/Design Studio doesn't have the same gravity as Lehman Bros or GM.

The company I left at the end of September sold a week after I started my new job and like ducks in a row; people getting canned. I stepped out from under a falling piano with that move, and they were quite a large international company that was just bleeding.

[Rogah]

Remember what I told you guys a while back...this country is going to see a 20% or higher unemployment rate in 2009. Today's Black Monday is just the first day of an economic tailspin we haven't seen since the 1930s. It's gonna happen quick, too.Unemployment will not get that high nationwide. Michigan is pretty much the single most depressed region in the country and has been for quite some time, but they are barely at even half that amount (10.6% in December).

[Rogah]

This is the worst economy I've seen in over 25 years. Its horrendous.

On the bright side I just got a part-time job while I go to school so I'm good. This company is staying busy even in this mess. It's a courier company. Always need those.I don't think this economic situation is as bad as the "perfect storm" we experienced in 2001. The internet bubble was bursting big time, we had Enron, Tyco, Arthur Anderson, WorldCom... I was laid off in May of that year and was unable to find a replacement job during the summer. A good friend of mine got laid off a month after me. Then when the events of September 11 occurred, it made an atrocious situation even worse.

[bbgun]

I don't think this economic situation is as bad as the "perfect storm" we experienced in 2001. The internet bubble was bursting big time, we had Enron, Tyco, Arthur Anderson, WorldCom... I was laid off in May of that year and was unable to find a replacement job during the summer. A good friend of mine got laid off a month after me. Then when the events of September 11 occurred, it made an atrocious situation even worse.

Yep, me and 15 other colleagues at a small PR firm got the chop shortly thereafter. Times are decidedly bad, but let's not pretend we haven't seen grim days before.

[Kangaroo]

'92 was wimpy recession by recession standards (generally speaking of course; anybody who lost their job then would certainly disagree)...and 9/11 didn't do too much either except nearly bankrupt the airline industry for obvious reasons (if you were in the airline industry you're probably shooting blood out of your eyes reading this - but again I'm speaking generally). As for 9/11, there is a reason it didn't cause a big recession...we wouldn't let it. We were told to go out and SPEND! SPEND! SPEND! PUT IT ON THE CREDIT CARD! GET A HOME YOU CAN'T AFFORD! That was added on top of the SPEND! SPEND! SPEND! after the tech bubble popped. All of those credit bubbles finally popped just recently...that's the muck we're rolling around in now. We never "paid off the bill", we simply transferred the balance to a new national credit card, and we've maxed out our last one.

'82 rather sucked from what I can remember, but I couldn't have been laid off as I wasn't of working age then. The gas lines were the late-great disaster known as the late 70s under Carter.

in 1992 I was already poor working a $4.25 an hour Night Audit position at a local hotel in a town where you worked or attended and sometimes all of them at one of the two state institutes. I also was on my 4th year in the Army Reserves and I was struggling to pay for my school on a shoe string budget just hoping I could eat the next day. It was sad I always looked forward to the Blood Drives Because I would load up on all the cookies and crackers to feed myself :D

I am still recovering from what 9/11 did to my family when my wife lost her job and we lost over 30% of the household income and my daughter was diagnosed with Autism making it so my wife could work only part time with all the doctors appointments; therapy etc. we had to do.

[TheCount]

in 1992 I was already poor working a $4.25 an hour Night Audit position at a local hotel in a town where you worked or attended and sometimes all of them at one of the two state institutes. I also was on my 4th year in the Army Reserves and I was struggling to pay for my school on a shoe string budget just hoping I could eat the next day. It was sad I always looked forward to the Blood Drives Because I would load up on all the cookies and crackers to feed myself :D

I am still recovering from what 9/11 did to my family when my wife lost her job and we lost over 30% of the household income and my daughter was diagnosed with Autism making it so my wife could work only part time with all the doctors appointments; therapy etc. we had to do.

Sorry to hear about all that, hope things are looking up now.

[theogt]

'92 was wimpy recession by recession standards (generally speaking of course; anybody who lost their job then would certainly disagree)...and 9/11 didn't do too much either except nearly bankrupt the airline industry for obvious reasons (if you were in the airline industry you're probably shooting blood out of your eyes reading this - but again I'm speaking generally). As for 9/11, there is a reason it didn't cause a big recession...we wouldn't let it. We were told to go out and SPEND! SPEND! SPEND! PUT IT ON THE CREDIT CARD! GET A HOME YOU CAN'T AFFORD! That was added on top of the SPEND! SPEND! SPEND! after the tech bubble popped. All of those credit bubbles finally popped just recently...that's the muck we're rolling around in now. We never "paid off the bill", we simply transferred the balance to a new national credit card, and we've maxed out our last one.

'82 rather sucked from what I can remember, but I couldn't have been laid off as I wasn't of working age then. The gas lines were the late-great disaster known as the late 70s under Carter.The 1992 recession saw unemployment above 7% for 21 straight months.

This recession has seen unemployment above 7% for one month. Most predictions have the economy turning around by the end of the 2nd quarter or at least by the end of the 3rd quarter. We may reach 21 months, but a stimulus package will likely prevent that.

[burmafrd]

Hearing all these CHILDREN of 30 or less talking about how terrible things are. They know NOTHING. I was around and aware all through the 70's and on and I know nothing about the great depression except the stories my grandparents told me. So while I have a much better perspective of things then these posters do, I still have no real knowledge of the great depression- and frankly there is virtually only a handful left who do since they would be at 90+ if they were old enough to really understand what was going on.

[Jon88]

Hearing all these CHILDREN of 30 or less talking about how terrible things are. They know NOTHING. I was around and aware all through the 70's and on and I know nothing about the great depression except the stories my grandparents told me. So while I have a much better perspective of things then these posters do, I still have no real knowledge of the great depression- and frankly there is virtually only a handful left who do since they would be at 90+ if they were old enough to really understand what was going on.

That's a little demeaning. I remember the economy after 9/11. I was too young to really understand what was happening in '92 and not even born during the Carter Administration, but I hear things were worse then compared to this piont in the recession.

[Kangaroo]

Sorry to hear about all that, hope things are looking up now.

It is life you suck it up deal with it keep the nose to the grindstone and one day you come out ahead or dead

[WoodysGirl]

I've been unemployed so many times, it doesn't bother me as much anymore. I worked as a contractor for many years. Contracts that are supposed to go for 6 mos have ended after 3. You just keep going.

Right now I'm gainfully employed and I hope to be at this company for a long while. I don't fool myself into believing the situation can't change at any minute, tho.

I just keep working, saving, and praying I survive any cuts they choose to make.

In the meantime, I can't worry about what I can't control.

[Jon88]

I've been unemployed so many times, it doesn't bother me as much anymore.

Right now I'm gainfully employed and I hope to be at this company for a long while. I don't fool myself into believing the situation can't change at any minute, tho.

I just keep working, saving, and praying I survive any cuts they choose to make.

In the meantime, I can't worry about what I can't control.


I was a runner for a law firm and was fired after I cursed out one of the court clerks after he gave me an amazingly hard time, I was fired while working for my dad because he's an arse, and I was a vendor at three home depot stores and was laid off with 1 day's notice. Being unemployed sucks and is very stressful.

[WoodysGirl]

I was a runner for a law firm and was fired after I cursed out one of the court clerks after he gave me an amazingly hard time, I was fired while working for my dad because he's an arse, and I was a vendor at three home depot stores and was laid off with 1 days notice. Being unemployed sucks and is very stressful.Heh, I can't say I was let go for any of those reasons. Only a couple times where I think I was at fault (work quality).

Overall, it was generally business decisions. Projects weren't going anywhere after all and they didn't need a writer on staff.

[Jon88]

Heh, I can't say I was let go for any of those reasons. Only a couple times where I think I was at fault (work quality).

Overall, it was generally business decisions. Projects weren't going anywhere after all and they didn't need a writer on staff.


I've been unemployed by choice several more times because of terrible bosses that I just could not work for any longer. There are quite a few of those in Shreveport, La.

[burmafrd]

Whats demeaning 88? You have no knowledge of what it was like back then so any comparisons sound trite. Not your fault you are young. But for those CHILDREN to whine and cry about how terrible things are now- they know NOTHING.

[Cajuncowboy]

I've been unemployed so many times, it doesn't bother me as much anymore. I worked as a contractor for many years. Contracts that are supposed to go for 6 mos have ended after 3. You just keep going.

Right now I'm gainfully employed and I hope to be at this company for a long while. I don't fool myself into believing the situation can't change at any minute, tho.

I just keep working, saving, and praying I survive any cuts they choose to make.

In the meantime, I can't worry about what I can't control.

It's a great attitude you have. More people should have that. If you do the best you can do, you should be fine in the long run. People will always want good workers.

Also, there are very few "womb to tomb" jobs anymore.

[JBond]

One of the worse days ever for job loses

Caterpilliar is cutting 20k

IBM 2,800

HomeDepot 7k

Philips Electronics 6k

Sprint 8k


here is a link to show a list of the differnt articles covering it

http://www.reuters.com/finance/news/archive/ousiv?date=today


Corporate ax hits over 70,000 in US, Europe


Some more info on the cuts

http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUKTRE50P50E20090126?virtualBrandChannel=10112

But Obama was going to create three million jobs. What happened? Are they all going to be jobs paid for by the taxpayers?

[JBond]

So did you hate to do it, or was it ironic? I can't figure out which one.

You are a moron if you believe any owner wants to get rid of quality employees. Sometimes the numbers dictate responsibility. Something our government does not understand. An owner had to make a hard decision and you choose to mock it.

That is who you are. That is fine. I wonder you would have run your company into the ground and cried for a bailout, or if you would make the hard decisions necessary for the long term sustainability of the company?

[JBond]

As a 36-year-old, I can tell you what a bad economy looks like. Not quite the Depression...but as a child I remember sitting in lines for gas with my mom, and in fact only being allowed to buy gas on "certain" days depending on the digits/letters in your license plate. You'd actually get a ticket for attempting to BUY GAS, and sent home by the nice officer patrolling the spiraling gas lines. Yes, it can get that bad.

I lived in Anaheim California then and remember those days clearly. I was the kid in the green Buick station wagon (with faux wood paneling) playing with my star wars action figures and Lagos in the back part of the wagon. We waited for hours and hours some days.

[bbgun]

I lived in Anaheim California then and remember those days clearly. I was the kid in the green Buick station wagon (with faux wood paneling) playing with my star wars action figures and Lagos in the back part of the wagon. We waited for hours and hours some days.

My father brought along a set of odd/even license plates when we went to the Jersey Shore in '79. So no matter what day it was, we were sure to be "gas eligible."

[JBond]

My father brought along a set of odd/even license plates when we went to the Jersey Shore in '79. So no matter what day it was, we were sure to be "gas eligible."

I lived in northern Jersey 6th grade through high school. Seton Hall in South Orange was where I attended college. I remember many great weekends on LBI.

Didn't mean to run on about myself. I have lived on both coasts and really enjoy living in KC now.

[bbgun]

I lived in northern Jersey 6th grade through high school. Seton Hall in South Orange was where I attended college. I remember many great weekends on LBI.

Didn't mean to run on about myself. I have lived on both coasts and really enjoy living in KC now.

I was born in Morristown. My father went to Seton Hall Prep. Ship Bottom was our annual destination on LBI. Yeah, I guess KC represents quite a culture change.

[JBond]

I was born in Morristown. My father went to Seton Hall Prep. Ship Bottom was our annual destination on LBI. Yeah, I guess KC represents quite a culture change.

I attended Don Bosco Prep in Ramsey, NJ. Seton Hall prep had a legendary coach in BB.

It was a culture shock 15 years ago, but I have learned to love it. No better place in the country to raise your children in my opinion.

[silverbear]

I was a runner for a law firm and was fired after I cursed out one of the court clerks after he gave me an amazingly hard time

Yeah, law firms tend not to keep people who launch into obscenity-laced tirades...


I was fired while working for my dad because he's an arse

Charming way to talk about your Dad, leading us to wonder who the "arse" really was in that situation...

[silverbear]

I've been unemployed by choice several more times because of terrible bosses that I just could not work for any longer. There are quite a few of those in Shreveport, La.

IOW, you've got a rotten 'tude, and expect your bosses to do things your way, rather than the other way around...

I worked at a hotel for 10 and a half years, with a general manager (a woman) who was completely paranoid, convinced that I was trying to take her job, when I did absolutely nothing to cause her to think such a thing, other than train her on the assorted machines we used there (computer, switchboard, etc.)... that occurred because I'd used the same machines at my previous hotel, and was quite conversant with them...

I didn't leave because my GM was an "arse", though she was, I left because I had a better offer...

[silverbear]

But Obama was going to create three million jobs. What happened?

Yeah, what the hell, he's been in office a WEEK now... this economic crisis should be over by now...

[silverbear]

My father brought along a set of odd/even license plates when we went to the Jersey Shore in '79. So no matter what day it was, we were sure to be "gas eligible."


That's a good way to teach his kids honesty and integrity... :D

[Kangaroo]

IOW, you've got a rotten 'tude, and expect your bosses to do things your way, rather than the other way around...

I worked at a hotel for 10 and a half years, with a general manager (a woman) who was completely paranoid, convinced that I was trying to take her job, when I did absolutely nothing to cause her to think such a thing, other than train her on the assorted machines we used there (computer, switchboard, etc.)... that occurred because I'd used the same machines at my previous hotel, and was quite conversant with them...

I didn't leave because my GM was an "arse", though she was, I left because I had a better offer...

10 Years in the Hospitality industry you worked a lot of Holidays for darn sure

[ethiostar]

I finally got a phone interview for a job scheduled this Friday. It doesn't offer longterm security but i feel lucky to even get an opportunity to interview for something.

Wish me luck!

[Phrozen Phil]

As a 55 year old, I've seen my fair share of good and bad times, but I won't lecture anybody here about whether or not they are "quality employees" or that they "know nothing" about hard times. No matter what the era or the circumstances, it's tough when the economy tanks. I've seen plenty of good people who have lost their jobs through no fault of their own and I extend my support to anybody here who is going through a rough patch. I've always managed to find work and I feel lucky for that.
don't know if the stimulus package that is being proposed will make a difference quickly, but I pray that it begins to do what it is intended. I fear that things will get worse before thay get better, but I do believe that they will get better, one way or another.

[Phrozen Phil]

I finally got a phone interview for a job scheduled this Friday. It doesn't offer longterm security but i feel lucky to even get an opportunity to interview for something.

Wish me luck!

Best of luck. Here's hoping that it pans out for you. Some of my best job experiences have come through chance , rather than by design. Here's hoping that this is one for you.

[silverbear]

10 Years in the Hospitality industry you worked a lot of Holidays for darn sure

20 years in the hospitality biz, actually, and before that I worked as a golf pro... so yeah, I've worked holidays for many, many years...

And y'know, I don't CARE... in fact, I VOLUNTEER to work Thanksgiving and Christmas, because my coworkers, my friends, have families, and I don't... I go have supper with some good friends in the afternoon, go home and nap for a coupla hours, then go to work...

It makes me feel good, letting my friends spend time with their families at times like that... besides, if I was off on those days, I'd just sit at home missing my family, generally feeling sorry for myself...

Screw feeling sorry for myself...

[silverbear]

I finally got a phone interview for a job scheduled this Friday. It doesn't offer longterm security but i feel lucky to even get an opportunity to interview for something.

Wish me luck!

Good luck, ethio... keep us posted how it went...

[ethiostar]

Best of luck. Here's hoping that it pans out for you. Some of my best job experiences have come through chance , rather than by design. Here's hoping that this is one for you.

Good luck, ethio... keep us posted how it went...

Thanks fellas, I will keep you posted.

[burmafrd]

Keep butting up against that closed door- do it long enough and it will open just to get some peace and quiet!!!!

[Kangaroo]

20 years in the hospitality biz, actually, and before that I worked as a golf pro... so yeah, I've worked holidays for many, many years...

And y'know, I don't CARE... in fact, I VOLUNTEER to work Thanksgiving and Christmas, because my coworkers, my friends, have families, and I don't... I go have supper with some good friends in the afternoon, go home and nap for a coupla hours, then go to work...

It makes me feel good, letting my friends spend time with their families at times like that... besides, if I was off on those days, I'd just sit at home missing my family, generally feeling sorry for myself...

Screw feeling sorry for myself...

I worked quite a few myself I put myself through college as a night auditor for most of college career it has been forever but I worked in that industry.

I actually worked one Hotel we shutdown for two weeks in December-Jan because it was ran by the College so they shut it all down for 2 weeks

[Sasquatch]

Jon88
Age:25
Location:
USA


You are 25 years old ...... how long have you been "watching" the economy?

He must have been the original inspiration for those Ameritrade/e-trade commercials with the day trading baby.

[Jon88]

IOW, you've got a rotten 'tude, and expect your bosses to do things your way, rather than the other way around...

I worked at a hotel for 10 and a half years, with a general manager (a woman) who was completely paranoid, convinced that I was trying to take her job, when I did absolutely nothing to cause her to think such a thing, other than train her on the assorted machines we used there (computer, switchboard, etc.)... that occurred because I'd used the same machines at my previous hotel, and was quite conversant with them...

I didn't leave because my GM was an "arse", though she was, I left because I had a better offer...

You really don't know the particulars of each situation so to make those comments shows how much class you have.

[Jon88]

Yeah, law firms tend not to keep people who launch into obscenity-laced tirades...




Charming way to talk about your Dad, leading us to wonder who the "arse" really was in that situation...


Cheap shots left and right. Again, you don't know exactly what happened, just the basics.

[zrinkill]

He must have been the original inspiration for those Ameritrade/e-trade commercials with the day trading baby.

:laugh2:

I love those commercials.

[CowboyMcCoy]

As a 40 year old, I can tell you...
What were we talking about again? Oh yeah. Economy.

Well I was just a rugrat for the atrocity of the Carter administration, and while I remember the annoying things, I didn't get the profound meanings of them or my mother's angst at the time.

This is certainly the most wary time of my adult-breadwinner life.


Amen to that. I agree. But the strange thing is Obama seems to be catching a lot of flack, in this political section, for the country's current state. Strange, he's only been in office for 7 days.

[trickblue]

Amen to that. I agree. But the strange thing is Obama seems to be catching a lot of flack, in this political section, for the country's current state. Strange, he's only been in office for 7 days.

Exact same thing happened to Bush in 2000...

[CowboyMcCoy]

20 years in the hospitality biz, actually, and before that I worked as a golf pro... so yeah, I've worked holidays for many, many years...

And y'know, I don't CARE... in fact, I VOLUNTEER to work Thanksgiving and Christmas, because my coworkers, my friends, have families, and I don't... I go have supper with some good friends in the afternoon, go home and nap for a coupla hours, then go to work...

It makes me feel good, letting my friends spend time with their families at times like that... besides, if I was off on those days, I'd just sit at home missing my family, generally feeling sorry for myself...

Screw feeling sorry for myself...

I'd bet you have to have that attitude in the hospitality business.

[CowboyMcCoy]

Exact same thing happened to Bush in 2000...

Not after 7 days. He caught some flack because of September 11th. At best, that's because he was at his ranch living up his presidential victory and not on the job at the Whitehouse. But, more likely, he was probably plotting the attack on our world trade center.

Take your pick, either one DESERVES some flack. We still haven't gone after the real killers. Regarding 9/11 we're like O.J--guilty, and still looking for the real killers.

[zrinkill]

But, more likely, he was probably plotting the attack on our world trade center.


:lmao2:


Goodlord ...... another "truther"

[CowboyMcCoy]

:lmao2:


Goodlord ...... another "truther"

Oh, lord, this board has one of those guys. So, according to Skippy here, apparently anyone who'd consider another theory, on a logical basis, is attempted to be ridiculed by cutsie wootsie smilies.

I can tell this guy will go on my ignore list quickly. For a closed mind is a broken mind.

[zrinkill]

Oh, lord, this board has one of those guys. So who'd consider another theory, on a logical basis, is attempted to be ridiculed by cutsie wootsie smilies.

I can tell this guy will go on my ignore list quickly. For a closed mind is a broken mind.

You conspiracy boys can all put me on your ignore list.

Anybody stupid enough to think that our Government could pull off 9/11 in this day and age and get away with it is not worth talking to anyway.

Nothing logical about it ...... not a shred of evidence.

[Jon88]

Oh, lord, this board has one of those guys. So, according to Skippy here, apparently anyone who'd consider another theory, on a logical basis, is attempted to be ridiculed by cutsie wootsie smilies.

I can tell this guy will go on my ignore list quickly. For a closed mind is a broken mind.


This board has a few jerks on it, like Silverbear. He's 56 years old and feels the need to tear others down and make posts so others will stroke he's ego. He VOLUNTEERS everyone! Loser.

[bbgun]

:lmao2:


Goodlord ...... another "truther"

Once again, the mask slips. These guys can never conceal their hate for very long.

[ScipioCowboy]

Oh, lord, this board has one of those guys. So, according to Skippy here, apparently anyone who'd consider another theory, on a logical basis, is attempted to be ridiculed by cutsie wootsie smilies.

I can tell this guy will go on my ignore list quickly. For a closed mind is a broken mind.

Generally speaking, when you starting throwing around insults like "skippy" and brandishing your ignore list as if it's some kind of weapon, you lose any honest claim to open-mindedness.

[zrinkill]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/zrinkill/conspiracy_news1.gif

[CowboyMcCoy]

This board has a few jerks on it, like Silverbear. He's 56 years old and feels the need to tear others down and make posts so others will stroke he's ego. He VOLUNTEERS everyone! Loser.

Here we have a guy who doesn't realize the CIA, FBI and Presidential connections that would allow for behind the curtains non-sense to go on. The Bush family has been profiting from war since WWII--check the congressional record. That's a fact.

We lied about WHY we went to war. Then, oil companies reap record profits and throw us into recession.

It sounds to me like the select few gain ALL the power and there is no one to police the police when there is that much connectivity AND corruption.

But, bah bah black sheep. We're all entitled to believe.

[Jon88]

Here we have a guy who doesn't realize the CIA, FBI and Presidential connections that would allow for behind the curtains non-sense to go on. The Bush family has been profiting from war since WWII--check the congressional record. That's a fact.

We lied about WHY we went to war. Then, oil companies reap record profits and throw us into recession.

It sounds to me like the select few gain ALL the power and there is no one to police the police when there is that much connectivity AND corruption.

But, bah bah black sheep. We're all entitled to believe.

I'm sure you've seen the movie "Loose Change." Great documentary. If you haven't, it's on YouTube.

[CowboyMcCoy]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/zrinkill/conspiracy_news1.gif

I see someone probably never went to college and isn't aware of media agenda setting. More and more amongst the academic community and even more historians believe that 9/11 was a conspiracy orchestrated by well-connected elites that trickles down to a society with access to human capital such as suicide bombers who would do this.

I guess we can all just take things on FOX News at face value, accept it, and let it control our minds and how and what we think about the world.

But *I* can't help but use the Socratic method and draw the conclusion that things regarding and related to 9/11 just don't add up.

I apologize for sharing a different view than yours, however, Zrink. And your childish antics are at least amusing, I guess.

Sorry if something I said got your goat. I didn't mean to annoy.

[bbgun]

Here we have a guy who doesn't realize the CIA, FBI and Presidential connections that would allow for behind the curtains non-sense to go on. The Bush family has been profiting from war since WWII--check the congressional record. That's a fact.

We lied about WHY we went to war. Then, oil companies reap record profits and throw us into recession.

It sounds to me like the select few gain ALL the power and there is no one to police the police when there is that much connectivity AND corruption.

But, bah bah black sheep. We're all entitled to believe.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1724/moonbatbrainpc8.jpg

[zrinkill]

I apologize for sharing a different view than yours, however, Zrink. And your childish antics are at least amusing, I guess.

Sorry if something I said got your goat. I didn't mean to annoy.

Tells me all I need.

[BrAinPaiNt]

I'm sure you've seen the movie "Loose Change." Great documentary. If you haven't, it's on YouTube.

Even better is to look up, on youtube, the debate between the loose change guys and the popular mechanic guys. loose change guys do not look to good in it.

[BrAinPaiNt]

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1724/moonbatbrainpc8.jpg

:laugh2: :laugh2: :bow:

[JBond]

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1724/moonbatbrainpc8.jpg
:lmao2:

[zrinkill]

Even better is to look up, on youtube, the debate between the loose change guys and the popular mechanic guys. loose change guys do not look to good in it.


Fact that these Loose change guys have admitted that it started out as a prank ...... and the fact that they are still alive says a lot.

[ScipioCowboy]

Here we have a guy who doesn't realize the CIA, FBI and Presidential connections that would allow for behind the curtains non-sense to go on. The Bush family has been profiting from war since WWII--check the congressional record. That's a fact.

We lied about WHY we went to war. Then, oil companies reap record profits and throw us into recession.

It sounds to me like the select few gain ALL the power and there is no one to police the police when there is that much connectivity AND corruption.

But, bah bah black sheep. We're all entitled to believe.

The problem lies not with your facts but with your logic and the conclusions you're deriving from it. Your entire argument is predicated on these three points:

1) The CIA, FBI, and the Office of the President are connected in such as way that a conspiracy such as this one is possible. Of course, there's no evidence of such a conspiracy existing; however, because it's possible, it must be true (according to your logic).

2) The Bush family has profited from war in the past. Yes, the Bush family has reaped profits from war...like a myriad of other powerful and semi-powerful families within the US. There's nothing particularly damning about this, and it's certainly not indicative of a massive conspiracy. Without people profiting from war, we would lack the ability to defend ourselves.

3) We're in a recession. Newsflash: Recessions are natural economic phenomena. They certainly aren't the product of conspiracy.

[bbgun]

15 Questions Truthers Need to Answer

http://counterknowledge.com/2008/12/15-questions-911-truthers-now-need-to-answer/

take your time

[JBond]

15 Questions Truthers Need to Answer

http://counterknowledge.com/2008/12/15-questions-911-truthers-now-need-to-answer/

take your time

I wonder if he would feel differently if he had friends die that day. There is a reason for the pic under my name. I try to ignore the trolls like CowboyMcoy but some days I just want to beat the living crap out of them.

[Rogah]

I see someone probably never went to college and isn't aware of media agenda setting. More and more amongst the academic community and even more historians believe that 9/11 was a conspiracy orchestrated by well-connected elites that trickles down to a society with access to human capital such as suicide bombers who would do this. When he says "more and more" he means one person believed it 7 years ago and now two people believe it today. :lmao2:

[bbgun]

I wonder if he would feel differently if he had friends die that day. There is a reason for the pic under my name. I try to ignore the trolls like CowboyMcoy but some days I just want to beat the living crap out of them.

He could care less about the people who died. They're just used as a cudgel against Bush.

[Jon88]

Even better is to look up, on youtube, the debate between the loose change guys and the popular mechanic guys. loose change guys do not look to good in it.


I'll look that up.

[avaj]

Why all the doom and gloom? Just last week I saw a headline on CNN: "Obama raises a hand, lifts a nation." Just imagine what will happen when the chosen one raises both of his hands!

Where all all the Obama lovers, where have they gone? Why aren't they here to explain how the chosen one will fix everything?

All of this is Obama's fault?

[trickblue]

Not after 7 days. He caught some flack because of September 11th. At best, that's because he was at his ranch living up his presidential victory and not on the job at the Whitehouse. But, more likely, he was probably plotting the attack on our world trade center.

Take your pick, either one DESERVES some flack. We still haven't gone after the real killers. Regarding 9/11 we're like O.J--guilty, and still looking for the real killers.

You are right.. it wasn't after seven days... it was right after the election when Clinton was still in office. I heard with my own ears Tom Brokaw call the economy "The Bush Economy". I then heard it become the buzzword. He took a lot of criticism for "talking the economy down", yet Barack didn't get the same treatment.

I knew this was you, Ben...

I could hear the blades of the black helicopter cutting through the air... ;)

[DaBoys4Life]

Remember what I told you guys a while back...this country is going to see a 20% or higher unemployment rate in 2009. Today's Black Monday is just the first day of an economic tailspin we haven't seen since the 1930s. It's gonna happen quick, too.

Are you patting yourself on the back because you called something like that? You know what will happen if 20% of Americans lose thier jobs? Times is hard and people is crazy.

[zrinkill]

I knew this was you, Ben...


This is what clued me in.

But, bah bah black sheep.

I see someone probably never went to college and isn't aware of media agenda setting. ........ Zrink.........Sorry if something I said got your goat.


Its pretty obvious.

[silverbear]

I worked quite a few myself I put myself through college as a night auditor for most of college career it has been forever but I worked in that industry.

I actually worked one Hotel we shutdown for two weeks in December-Jan because it was ran by the College so they shut it all down for 2 weeks

I could live with taking my 2 weeks' paid vacation during the holidays every year...

I'm really surprised that none of the night auditors up in Winchester (where there are 20 hotels or so) are college kids doing what you did, what with Shenandoah University being right there in the midst of us... at the very least, usually in college towns you'll find the relief night auditors working on the weekend come from the college...

It's not a bad way to work yourself through school, I think, though I didn't have to work when I as in college (thanks to an ROTC scholarship that paid all my expenses AND gave me a monthly check for living expenses)... I mean, work til 7, go to class at 8, be done with your classes by noon (if you schedule carefully)... sounds like a workable routine to me...

[Kangaroo]

The problem lies not with your facts but with your logic and the conclusions you're deriving from it. Your entire argument is predicated on these three points:

1) The CIA, FBI, and the Office of the President are connected in such as way that a conspiracy such as this one is possible. Of course, there's no evidence of such a conspiracy existing; however, because it's possible, it must be true (according to your logic).

2) The Bush family has profited from war in the past. Yes, the Bush family has reaped profits from war...like a myriad of other powerful and semi-powerful families within the US. There's nothing particularly damning about this, and it's certainly not indicative of a massive conspiracy. Without people profiting from war, we would lack the ability to defend ourselves.

3) We're in a recession. Newsflash: Recessions are natural economic phenomena. They certainly aren't the product of conspiracy.

You mean Like Barbara Boxer and her Husbands Business did but lets not let that get in the way of it was all master minded by Bush for his family

[VCDefectors]

Are you patting yourself on the back because you called something like that? You know what will happen if 20% of Americans lose thier jobs? Times is hard and people is crazy.

I'm not patting myself on the back, but I do suggest that those who laugh at such a prediction are in denial of the severity of the problems we face. It's not just the current unemployment rate (close to 8%), but the rate at which this country is losing jobs. When the rate of job losses begins to decrease, then we'll know that we have reached the bottom of this business cycle.

Until then, there is no data (that I know of) to suggest that any turnaround in 2009 is likely to take place. Every source that I have read or watched feel things are going to continue to get worse.

[silverbear]

You really don't know the particulars of each situation so to make those comments shows how much class you have.

I know that law firms are very sensitive to their reputations, and if one of their representatives (you) goes around cussing out people, that representative isn't gonna last very long...

I also know that you say you left a number of jobs, the insinuation being that the bosses were "jerks"... this even includes your own father, whom you label an "arse"... and I know from having been around for 56 years that when one person has all these problems with folks in power, HE'S more than likely the problem...

Don't need to know the particulars of each situation, either you're the unluckiest employee in the history of the world, or you just have a rotten attitude toward folks in power... having observed your posting style, and read your comical little PM to me, it's pretty easy to figure out which scenario is in play here...

I'm 56 years old, and it sounds like I've had fewer jobs in my life than you have, at the tender age of 25... indeed, I've only had 2 in the last 20 years, and I CHOSE to leave the first, because I got a better job offer in the 2nd...

And there have been several GMs, one as far away as California, who have offered me jobs while I've worked this latest one, but I'm happy here... presumably, they offered me those jobs because I have a GOOD attitude...

I take pride in whatever job I might have, you seem to resent yours...

[silverbear]

Cheap shots left and right. Again, you don't know exactly what happened, just the basics.

I know that any man who calls his own Dad an "arse" on a message board has some problems... oh, some dads deserve it, some are abusive, but your Dad cared enough about you to give you a freakin' job, and you still dis him??

At 25, it's past time for you to grow up, and realize that life is hard, and bosses sometimes ask things of you that you resent... either that, or go build your own business (where you will undoubtedly be FAR worse than any of the bosses you went off on in your little rants in these threads)...

You're angry with me because I forced you to see yourself as you are, and you don't seem to like what you see... perhaps you should consider the wisdom of the great Scottish poet Robert Burns, who wrote:

O would some power the giftie gie us
To see ourselves as others see us.

[DaBoys4Life]

I'm not patting myself on the back, but I do suggest that those who laugh at such a prediction are in denial of the severity of the problems we face. It's not just the current unemployment rate (close to 8%), but the rate at which this country is losing jobs. When the rate of job losses begins to decrease, then we'll know that we have reached the bottom of this business cycle.

Until then, there is no data (that I know of) to suggest that any turnaround in 2009 is likely to take place. Every source that I have read or watched feel things are going to continue to get worse.

I don't think the problem is real. I think we are in a tough situation that could have been turned around with better ideas and a different leader. However, what Obama wants to do things will get worse. He needs things to get worse and he will make things worse.I think a lot of the media is to be blamed and the word recession has been tossed around way to much in the past couple of months.

[silverbear]

I'd bet you have to have that attitude in the hospitality business.

Yeah, pretty much... but it kind of comes natural to me...

For example, even working the graveyard shift, I probably get more positive comment cards from guests than any of my coworkers (who are a very good, very professional crew)... this despite the fact I refuse to wear my name tag (don't like poking holes in my Arrow and Van Heusen dress shirts)...

I just take the word "guest" seriously, and make the effort to be as gracious to my guests as I would guests in my own home... folks seem to respond positively to that... I have to admit, though, some nights I think I should have gone into acting, 'cause I sure don't feel like being "gracious"... :D

[bbgun]

I'm not patting myself on the back, but I do suggest that those who laugh at such a prediction are in denial of the severity of the problems we face. It's not just the current unemployment rate (close to 8%), but the rate at which this country is losing jobs. When the rate of job losses begins to decrease, then we'll know that we have reached the bottom of this business cycle.

Until then, there is no data (that I know of) to suggest that any turnaround in 2009 is likely to take place. Every source that I have read or watched feel things are going to continue to get worse.

Yes, we know that things are bad right now. In fact, my brother-in-law was just laid off yesterday. But that doesn't give you (or me) license to make apocalyptic predictions about the economy that scare people unnecessarily. In the meantime, suck-it-up.

[Jordan55]

"There is no disagreement that we
need action by our government,
a recovery plan that will help to
jumpstart the economy."
— PRESIDENT-ELECT BARACK OBAMA, JANUARY 9 , 2009


With all due respect
Mr.President,that is not true


Notwithstanding reports that all economists are now Keynesians and that we all support a big increase in the burden of
government, we the undersigned do not believe that more government spending is a way to improve economic performance.
More government spending by Hoover and Roosevelt did not pull the United States economy out of the Great Depression in
the 1930s. More government spending did not solve Japan’s “lost decade” in the 1990s. As such, it is a triumph of hope over
experience to believe that more government spending will help the U.S. today. To improve the economy, policymakers should
focus on reforms that remove impediments to work, saving, investment and production. Lower tax rates and a reduction in the
burden of government are the best ways of using fiscal policy to boost growth.
PA I D F O R B Y T H E CAT O I N S T I T U T E , WWW. CAT O . O R G
Via Cato Institute: Here are 200 economists, including Nobel Laureates, who oppose the Generational Theft Act of 2009

[silverbear]

This board has a few jerks on it, like Silverbear. He's 56 years old and feels the need to tear others down and make posts so others will stroke he's ego. He VOLUNTEERS everyone! Loser.

You see, this is just what I mean about your 'tude... you know good and well that while we can engage in some sarcasm in here, calling folks "jerks" and "losers" is a violation of the rules, and will get you an infraction... this is a classic example of what I figured to be the case, you regularly lose your temper at the slightest provocation, and fly off the handle...

Yeah, guys like that often wind up bouncing from job to job...

Please understand that I don't care what you call me, your anger amuses me greatly... you're proving my point for me... but I really don't want to see you get an infraction because you can't control your temper, get enough of them and you wind up getting banned... I don't know why I should care what happens to you, but I don't really want to see that happen...

[VCDefectors]

I don't think the problem is real. I think we are in a tough situation that could have been turned around with better ideas and a different leader. However, what Obama wants to do things will get worse. He needs things to get worse and he will make things worse.I think a lot of the media is to be blamed and the word recession has been tossed around way to much in the past couple of months.

This isn't about politics, it's primarily a fundamental problem with the economy. Demand for land, labor, and capital continues to fall and the CPI isn't dropping quickly enough to stabilize demand. Until that happens, the rate of the unemployment rate will continue to increase.

[DaBoys4Life]

This isn't about politics, it's primarily a fundamental problem with the economy. Demand for land, labor, and capital continues to fall and the CPI isn't dropping quickly enough to stabilize demand. Until that happens, the rate of the unemployment rate will continue to increase.

It's always about Politics.

[VCDefectors]

It's always about Politics.

Uh, that would be wrong. Falling demand on G&S is an economic problem with no quick fix.

[ninja]

I see Silverbear is making more friends. More pictures Silverbear, please. More stories about your awesome experience and great knowledge.

Humor me.

[iceberg]

I see Silverbear is making more friends. More pictures Silverbear, please. More stories about your awesome experience and great knowledge.

Humor me.

and you hate vista because of why again?

[zrinkill]

I see Silverbear is making more friends. More pictures Silverbear, please. More stories about your awesome experience and great knowledge.

Humor me.


Silverbear has made a friend out of me. Even though we do not usually agree on politics I respect the hell out of him and know that he will give well thought out arguments to make his case.


He will get disrespectful if he thinks you are disrespecting him ..... but I think we are all guilty of that (especially me).

[ninja]

and you hate vista because of why again?

At work(government Army) they just switched me today to 2007 from 2003. Now that is nice. Good work on that. Give yourself a pat on the back.

Not a fan of Vista. Sorry. Nothing major. But, I due get tired of explaining to my wife(she's Japanese) that you have to save a file a certain way now to be able to e-mail it and that files she gets now she has to copy first to be able to edit whereas she could have edited them directly. If that makes any sense to you. Personally, I expected much more from Vista and it didn't "wow" me.

[iceberg]

At work(government Army) they just switched me today to 2007 from 2003. Now that is nice. Good work on that. Give yourself a pat on the back.

Not a fan of Vista. Sorry. Nothing major. But, I due get tired of explaining to my wife(she's Japanese) that you have to save a file a certain way now to be able to e-mail it and that files she gets now she has to copy first to be able to edit whereas she could have edited them directly. If that makes any sense to you. Personally, I expected much more from Vista and it didn't "wow" me.

over-secure.

we have the very same complaint. the next verion will let you have your own "nag meter"

[MetalHead]

Oh, lord, this board has one of those guys. So, according to Skippy here, apparently anyone who'd consider another theory, on a logical basis, is attempted to be ridiculed by cutsie wootsie smilies.

I can tell this guy will go on my ignore list quickly. For a closed mind is a broken mind.

Feel free to add me to it and further demonstrate that the left is never open to discuss points they don't agree with.First VCD and now you.

[Rogah]

At work(government Army) they just switched me today to 2007 from 2003. Now that is nice. Good work on that. Give yourself a pat on the back.

Not a fan of Vista. Sorry. Nothing major. But, I due get tired of explaining to my wife(she's Japanese) that you have to save a file a certain way now to be able to e-mail it and that files she gets now she has to copy first to be able to edit whereas she could have edited them directly. If that makes any sense to you. Personally, I expected much more from Vista and it didn't "wow" me.I like Vista but I will never, ever buy a Microsoft Operating System that I have to install ever again. Vista completely crashed my computer beyond recovery. I had to buy a new computer (which had Vista already installed).

[MetalHead]

Silverbear has made a friend out of me. Even though we do not usually agree on politics I respect the hell out of him and know that he will give well thought out arguments to make his case.


He will get disrespectful if he thinks you are disrespecting him ..... but I think we are all guilty of that (especially me).

I like him too...love messing with him.
The other day he said "If you listen to Artie,you're not gonna get anything done around here..."
Oh wait that was Obama on Rush.

[iceberg]

I like Vista but I will never, ever buy a Microsoft Operating System that I have to install ever again. Vista completely crashed my computer beyond recovery. I had to buy a new computer (which had Vista already installed).

physically impossible. it can crash your current OS for a variety of reasons, but you can always boot to an OS CD and reinstall.

software can't hurt hardware.

[burmafrd]

You might have to wipe the hard drive completely but that is all. If the hard drive failed then it was a problem with the drive not the programs. Once the hard drive is completley wiped you can install any program.

[CowboyMcCoy]

I enjoyed the documentary.

[CowboyMcCoy]

Yeah, pretty much... but it kind of comes natural to me...

For example, even working the graveyard shift, I probably get more positive comment cards from guests than any of my coworkers (who are a very good, very professional crew)... this despite the fact I refuse to wear my name tag (don't like poking holes in my Arrow and Van Heusen dress shirts)...

I just take the word "guest" seriously, and make the effort to be as gracious to my guests as I would guests in my own home... folks seem to respond positively to that... I have to admit, though, some nights I think I should have gone into acting, 'cause I sure don't feel like being "gracious"...
:D


Me neither. :mad:
:laugh2:

[JBond]

You mean Like Barbara Boxer and her Husbands Business did but lets not let that get in the way of it was all master minded by Bush for his family


Boxer makes me ill. She says horrible things about our troops, beats up Bush on the war and at the same time is making hundreds of millions of dollars off of the war she claims she is against.

Up is down and down is up in liberal world.

[ThaBigP]

This isn't about politics, it's primarily a fundamental problem with the economy. Demand for land, labor, and capital continues to fall and the CPI isn't dropping quickly enough to stabilize demand. Until that happens, the rate of the unemployment rate will continue to increase.

Somebody shoot me...I'm about to stand up for VC here....

I've been posting quite a bit of doom and gloom myself...and it ain't political. At least I can speak for myself on that one, and I'll just have to take VC at his word. I also want to stress that this isn't Obama's fault...nor is it Bush's fault. Both of their policies, however, are only going to serve to make matters worse and continue much longer. This problem has been brewing for about 70 years now, when we collectively decided it's a great idea for the government to borrow, borrow, and borrow for the purposes of spending future generations' buying power today for the purposes of benevolence. Right now, our REAL debt (including the "let's not talk about THAT" off-the-books entitlement obligations) stands at around 500-600% of GDP. The exact figure is in flux as the debt continues to balloon (and at a record rate now with all the bailouts) at the same time our GDP is likely contracting. Think about it...a 56-odd trillion dollar debt. If they took every penny from every working American this year in taxes (100% tax rate), as well as confiscated all the product of the American labor (all the houses, cars, things, and even interest and capital gains produced this year), we would all still owe 4 to 5 more years of that. THAT, my friends, is unsustainable. And THAT, my friends, is collapsing around us. That is what you see when you read the headlines. So many people are way too invested in the teeny, tiny picture. Back up a bit. The debt standard is broken because we abused it.

So long as the stupid borrowing was left to the public sector, the private sector was there to maintain our good standing. However, when the government began dictating the private sector likewise engage in overleveraging...again, for the purposes of benevolence...all bets were officially off.

[CowboyMcCoy]

Sustainability is an issue, but there are politics involved as well. To think that politics doesn't have an effect on sustainability and vice versa is plain silly.

[JBond]

This isn't about politics, it's primarily a fundamental problem with the economy. Demand for land, labor, and capital continues to fall and the CPI isn't dropping quickly enough to stabilize demand. Until that happens, the rate of the unemployment rate will continue to increase.

No it won't. Obama said so. He will create 3 million jobs. It's easy. Just listen to all of the propaganda....I mean speeches he made during the election. Republicans just did not feel like it because they are mean.
Where have you been?

[JBond]

Somebody shoot me...I'm about to stand up for VC here....

I've been posting quite a bit of doom and gloom myself...and it ain't political. At least I can speak for myself on that one, and I'll just have to take VC at his word. I also want to stress that this isn't Obama's fault...nor is it Bush's fault. Both of their policies, however, are only going to serve to make matters worse and continue much longer. This problem has been brewing for about 70 years now, when we collectively decided it's a great idea for the government to borrow, borrow, and borrow for the purposes of spending future generations' buying power today for the purposes of benevolence. Right now, our REAL debt (including the "let's not talk about THAT" off-the-books entitlement obligations) stands at around 500-600% of GDP. The exact figure is in flux as the debt continues to balloon (and at a record rate now with all the bailouts) at the same time our GDP is likely contracting. Think about it...a 56-odd trillion dollar debt. If they took every penny from every working American this year in taxes (100% tax rate), as well as confiscated all the product of the American labor (all the houses, cars, things, and even interest and capital gains produced this year), we would all still owe 4 to 5 more years of that. THAT, my friends, is unsustainable. And THAT, my friends, is collapsing around us. That is what you see when you read the headlines. So many people are way too invested in the teeny, tiny picture. Back up a bit. The debt standard is broken because we abused it.

So long as the stupid borrowing was left to the public sector, the private sector was there to maintain our good standing. However, when the government began dictating the private sector likewise engage in overleveraging...again, for the purposes of benevolence...all bets were officially off.

The central planners could not run a balanced budget in the good years. Why would anyone think they will do better now?

[ThaBigP]

Feel free to add me to it and further demonstrate that the left is never open to discuss points they don't agree with.First VCD and now you.

I've always gotten a kick out of the typical leftie logic of "the only way to demonstrate you have an open mind is to agree with me!".

That's right up there with, "we have to give this group of individuals in Washington more control over our lives...because individuals can't be trusted to run lives".

[zrinkill]

Feel free to add me to it and further demonstrate that the left is never open to discuss points they don't agree with.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/zrinkill/Benonthecatwalk2.jpg

On the catwalk .... on the catwalk yea!

[VCDefectors]

Somebody shoot me...I'm about to stand up for VC here....

I've been posting quite a bit of doom and gloom myself...and it ain't political. At least I can speak for myself on that one, and I'll just have to take VC at his word. I also want to stress that this isn't Obama's fault...nor is it Bush's fault. Both of their policies, however, are only going to serve to make matters worse and continue much longer. This problem has been brewing for about 70 years now, when we collectively decided it's a great idea for the government to borrow, borrow, and borrow for the purposes of spending future generations' buying power today for the purposes of benevolence. Right now, our REAL debt (including the "let's not talk about THAT" off-the-books entitlement obligations) stands at around 500-600% of GDP. The exact figure is in flux as the debt continues to balloon (and at a record rate now with all the bailouts) at the same time our GDP is likely contracting. Think about it...a 56-odd trillion dollar debt. If they took every penny from every working American this year in taxes (100% tax rate), as well as confiscated all the product of the American labor (all the houses, cars, things, and even interest and capital gains produced this year), we would all still owe 4 to 5 more years of that. THAT, my friends, is unsustainable. And THAT, my friends, is collapsing around us. That is what you see when you read the headlines. So many people are way too invested in the teeny, tiny picture. Back up a bit. The debt standard is broken because we abused it.

So long as the stupid borrowing was left to the public sector, the private sector was there to maintain our good standing. However, when the government began dictating the private sector likewise engage in overleveraging...again, for the purposes of benevolence...all bets were officially off.

Since I have a bachelor degree in economics, I can promise you that the real problem with our economy has to do with falling demand. For example, many economists and policy makers initially believed that stimulating the supply-side of our economy would ease the pain of the housing bubble burst that began in 2007. But no one saw a fundamental decrease in global demand for G&S until after last year's tax stimulus failed to work. Even falling gas prices didn't had any real effect on the global demand for oil.

This is around the time our government started putting together proposals for a bailout package.

So what we are seeing now is the supply-side shedding its excess (i.e. layoffs and decreasing productivity). But in doing so, this will lead to a further decrease in global demand.

This deflationary phenomenon is bad for many reasons. First, because prices of G&S (as indicated by the CPI index) is not falling quickly enough to stabilize demand. This means that the nominal prices of G&S are still too high. Second, the phenomenon of price expectations causes major problems. Consumers begin to expect prices to continue to fall, so they delay making purchases. And then this causes global demand to fall even more.

Deflation is lethal poison to a free market economy. Comparing what is going on now to the '81 and '92 recession is somewhat comparing apples to oranges, because those recessions did not suffer from deflationary trends that we are seeing now.

To be sure, there are still skeptics out there that suggest that this theory of falling global demand is bogus because many G&S are still holding prices at close to pre-recession levels. But given the global impact of this problem, it is only a matter of time when the rate of the falling CPI index will accelerate. When that happens, consumer prices will fall, minimum wage laws will be put on hold, and massive debts will have to be written off. The World Bank has a huge mess on their hands.

[ThaBigP]

Since I have a bachelor degree in economics, I can promise you that the real problem with our economy has to do with falling demand. For example, many economists and policy makers initially believed that stimulating the supply-side of our economy would ease the pain of the housing bubble burst that began in 2007. But no one saw a fundamental decrease in global demand for G&S until after last year's tax stimulus failed to work. Even falling gas prices didn't had any real effect on the global demand for oil.

This is around the time our government started putting together proposals for a bailout package.

So what we are seeing now is the supply-side shedding its excess (i.e. layoffs and decreasing productivity). But in doing so, this will lead to a further decrease in global demand.

This deflationary phenomenon is bad for many reasons. First, because prices of G&S (as indicated by the CPI index) is not falling quickly enough to stabilize demand. This means that the nominal prices of G&S are still too high. Second, the phenomenon of price expectations causes major problems. Consumers begin to expect prices to continue to fall, so they delay making purchases. And then this causes global demand to fall even more.

Deflation is lethal poison to a free market economy. Comparing what is going on now to the '81 and '92 recession is somewhat comparing apples to oranges, because those recessions did not suffer from deflationary trends that we are seeing now.

To be sure, there are still skeptics out there that suggest that this theory of falling global demand is bogus because many G&S are still holding prices at close to pre-recession levels. But given the global impact of this problem, it is only a matter of time when the rate of the falling CPI index will accelerate. When that happens, consumer prices will fall, minimum wage laws will be put on hold, and massive debts will have to be written off. The World Bank has a huge mess on their hands.

Whew...now I'm back to disagreeing with you. The bubble was not created by "supply side" economics...rather it was "demand side". We artificially decreased the cost of borrowing money for the consumer in an attempt to artificially spur demand, and included the suicidal policy of forcing and encouraging credit to those who should not have gotten that credit (or as much credit). That resulted in artificially skyrocketing prices. But..."artificial" is the word of the day, and it all came tumbling down, because it was all leveraged. "Supply side" economics is generally reducing the tax and regulatory burden on producers, allowing them to reduce cost to the consumer, who can then consume more without having to run up the credit card. Consumers buy more because their dollar buys more, not because they borrow more of somebody else's dollars for the purchases.

Your conclusion that demand went into a freefall is correct...I must however disagree with you on the cause. I see the demand of the last decade or so as being artificially high due to bad policy. That was, in a manner of speaking, a "demand bubble". It popped.

[silverbear]

I see Silverbear is making more friends. More pictures Silverbear, please. More stories about your awesome experience and great knowledge.

Humor me.

I told you, I'm not gonna indulge any of your sick sexual fantasies...

[silverbear]

Silverbear has made a friend out of me. Even though we do not usually agree on politics I respect the hell out of him and know that he will give well thought out arguments to make his case.


He will get disrespectful if he thinks you are disrespecting him ..... but I think we are all guilty of that (especially me).

I only wish that all of my targets had deserved my legendary sarcasm... sometimes I get that way on folks who really didn't deserve it...

Ice and me started out that way... you and me had our moments like that, too... I also should mention Jordan88, a guy I gave a particularly hard time to, who seemed to be able to let it all slide, who like you can still say nice things about me (God knows why)...

I don't feel bad when I get disrespectful on folks who deserve it, but I get mad at myself when I figure out that I'm doing it to some who don't...

Let me say that reading your first sentence put a smile on my face, zrink... please believe the feeling is entirely mutual, I like you, and I respect the way you can carry an argument...

[silverbear]

Feel free to add me to it and further demonstrate that the left is never open to discuss points they don't agree with

Why should he?? It ain't like you ever make a substantive political point...

Unless, of course, you consider "go practice your jump shot, old man" to be political debate... LOL...

[silverbear]

I like him too...love messing with him.
The other day he said "If you listen to Artie,you're not gonna get anything done around here..."
Oh wait that was Obama on Rush.

ROTFLMAO... score one for Artie, that was wicked funny...

[VCDefectors]

Your conclusion that demand went into a freefall is correct...I must however disagree with you on the cause. I see the demand of the last decade or so as being artificially high due to bad policy. That was, in a manner of speaking, a "demand bubble". It popped.

I think we are closer to agreeing on this, because it is really comes down to labeling what is supply and what is demand (Clinton's defining what the definition of 'is' is :D ).

I will give in as far as to say that the line between supply and demand has been somewhat blurred in modern times. Housing, for example, is a consumer good, but it is also an investment. So, if we are looking at the housing bubble, are we primarily talking about an artificially inflated demand for houses or are we talking about inflated speculation on the housing market that caused a gluttony of supply? Both?

[burmafrd]

ALL of the above. GREED on everyones part: on the lenders and borrowers for money, and on a lot of scummy politicians greedy for votes.
People were buying fancy houses then getting second mortgages for boats and cars and such.
To me the BIGGEST single screwup was the adjustable mortgage rate. THAT should have NEVER been allowed. When you have a fixed 30 year or even 15 year you KNOW what you will be paying all the time; with adjustable it goes all over the place. And a lot of greedy people thought it would go down despite the fact that it was just as likely to go up- AND it will never go down as fast and as far as it goes up.
The second biggest screwup- and this to me was bordering on criminal behavior since those pushing it knew full well what could happen- was the political BS about the qualifiers being RACIST or some BS like that. Qualifiers are completely mathematical formula's that had been used for 30-40 years to see if you were a safe loan bet. If you have good credit history and a good solid job you are ok. Which is the ONLY people who should get home loans ANYWAY. But certain politicians playing the race card worked to remove them and they got their way and the blocks were off the runaway train after that.

[CowboyMcCoy]

ALL of the above. GREED on everyones part: on the lenders and borrowers for money, and on a lot of scummy politicians greedy for votes.
People were buying fancy houses then getting second mortgages for boats and cars and such.
To me the BIGGEST single screwup was the adjustable mortgage rate. THAT should have NEVER been allowed. When you have a fixed 30 year or even 15 year you KNOW what you will be paying all the time; with adjustable it goes all over the place. And a lot of greedy people thought it would go down despite the fact that it was just as likely to go up- AND it will never go down as fast and as far as it goes up.
The second biggest screwup- and this to me was bordering on criminal behavior since those pushing it knew full well what could happen- was the political BS about the qualifiers being RACIST or some BS like that. Qualifiers are completely mathematical formula's that had been used for 30-40 years to see if you were a safe loan bet. If you have good credit history and a good solid job you are ok. Which is the ONLY people who should get home loans ANYWAY. But certain politicians playing the race card worked to remove them and they got their way and the blocks were off the runaway train after that.

Interesting, I worked in sub-prime lending and I remember there being a lot of racism and color-based approvals, in spite of these laws you speak of.

Either way, a lot of people should not have been borrowing money--certainly not as much money as was being lent.