so far under Obama

[Bob Sacamano]

**** still appears to remain the same regarding the economy, and Islamic nations still don't respect us

nice

but look how progressive our nation is!!!

[Kangaroo]

**** still appears to remain the same regarding the economy, and Islamic nations still don't respect us

nice

but look how progressive our nation is!!!

Funny how people whined about Bush spending on the Iraq war and the dems are about to make that look like a stroll in the park

I thought Bush overspent in areas but my goodness this new bill it going to just add to that misery

[Bob Sacamano]

Funny how people whined about Bush spending on the Iraq war and the dems are about to make that look like a stroll in the park

I thought Bush overspent in areas but my goodness this new bill it going to just add to that misery

when we need to overspend, our new government, the government of change, spends it on the government to remain the same

Democratic

but this goes to a much wider problem, the 2-party system of self-governing seems to be a failure

at least it only took 250 years to finally hit the boiling point

[theogt]

I thought everything would change after 3 weeks too.

[Bob Sacamano]

I thought everything would change after 3 weeks too.

wait 3 years, and nearly 45 billion spend on unemployment isn't going to change anything

[theogt]

wait 3 yearsWill you promise not to start a thread every 3 weeks in the meantime?

[Bob Sacamano]

Will you promise not to start a thread every 3 weeks in the meantime?

that's asking alot, I mean, 2 threads in 3 weeks

man

I do start alot of threads in the OT zone though

[theogt]

that's asking alot, I mean, 2 threads in 3 weeks

man

I do start alot of threads in the OT zone though80+% are about Dane Cook.

[Aikbach]

I thought everything would change after 3 weeks too.A lot has, things went from bad to needlessly worse in abundance.

[masomenos]

but this goes to a much wider problem, the 2-party system of self-governing seems to be a failure

at least it only took 250 years to finally hit the boiling point

Honestly, the only system possible is 1 party or 2 (unless you want anarchy). This is better than the alternative.

[trickblue]

Honestly, the only system possible is 1 party or 2 (unless you want anarchy). This is better than the alternative.

You think so?

I think a solid three party system would be much better. It would force cooperation between the parties...

A three-legged table is never unbalanced... a three party system would likely be the same...

[masomenos]

You think so?

I think a solid three party system would be much better. It would force cooperation between the parties...

A three-legged table is never unbalanced... a three party system would likely be the same...

I think that a third party would really just be a variation of one of the others, either true conservative (most likely) or true socialist/communist, etc. One of two things would happen:

The new party would just steal votes primarily from one of the original two, ensuring that the other original party would consistently hold majority.

The parties would all have equal representation but would never be able to come to a voting majority on any issue, or the new party would be too aligned with one of the original parties and would create a consistent super majority.

In both those instances you really end up with one party dominating politics. I really think that two is the only way to go.

[burmafrd]

I have to sadly agree that the only way to have a government able to act is to not have too many parties. Look at most of the European countries- they are always having to make deals to form governments. Italy and Israel are some of the worst examples.

[Biggems]

If I am not mistaken, it was either George Washington or Thomas Jefferson who warned us of bipartisanship.......but the people wouldn't listen.

We need to get rid of all the fluff and useless drivel.....get back to the meat and potatoes of this country.....get back to following the US Constitution. It is an awesome document. If we go back to following the Constitution as a basis of govt.....everything will be hunky dory.

Less govt = a better USA

[VCDefectors]

**** still appears to remain the same regarding the economy, and Islamic nations still don't respect us

nice

but look how progressive our nation is!!!

And this is worthy of starting a thread? :lmao:

Why not help the mods this week and not be one of the conservative trolls spamming the board with yet another stimulus bill thread?

[trickblue]

And this is worthy of starting a thread? :lmao:

Why not help the mods this week and not be one of the conservative trolls spamming the board with yet another stimulus bill thread?

I would... except I have my hands full scanning the board for liberal trolls spamming the board with yet another stimulus bill thread...

[VCDefectors]

I would... except I have my hands full scanning the board for liberal trolls spamming the board with yet another stimulus bill thread...

Yeah, like there is SOOOO many to choose from. Get real. :rolleyes:

[trickblue]

Yeah, like there is SOOOO many to choose from. Get real. :rolleyes:

Believe me... you make up for plenty...

Besides... many of our lefties have reduced their posting since Bush is no longer in office to kick around. I guess they are banding together to make the worlds largest tin-foil ball...

I'm still waiting for Bush to take over the country via Martial Law... they promised it would happen...

[VCDefectors]

Believe me... you make up for plenty...

Besides... many of our lefties have reduced their posting since Bush is no longer in office to kick around. I guess they are banding together to make the worlds largest tin-foil ball...

I'm still waiting for Bush to take over the country via Martial Law... they promised it would happen...

Whatever. Get real. :rolleyes:

[trickblue]

Whatever. Get real. :rolleyes:

Good advice for yourself...

[VCDefectors]

Good advice for yourself...

Way to make sense ... :rolleyes:

You know it's true. Count how many stimulus bill rant threads there are started this week alone.

[trickblue]

Way to make sense ... :rolleyes:

You know it's true. Count how many stimulus bill rant threads there are started this week alone.

I make as much sense as you...

Why shouldn't there be a ton of threads on this... it's the biggest bill in the history of our country. It's a "stimulus" bill that turned into a pork-laden government expansion bill. It's a bill engineered by the Democrats after complaining for 8 years about George Bush's spending habits. How come all of the sudden our debt doesn't matter?

I though you were an economics major? This subject should be right up your alley unless you have nothing of substance to offer.

How come the non-partisan CBO says this is a bad bill and the new administration just plunges further?

I can imagine how over the top you would be if Bush were orchestrating this...

Why wouldn't there be tons of threads on this... our great grandchildren will will be paying on it...

[burmafrd]

The more people find out about the "stimulus" bill the less they like it.
Poor VC= his messiah is starting to look less and less god like.

[SuspectCorner]

The more people find out about the "stimulus" bill the less they like it.
Poor VC= his messiah is starting to look less and less god like.

Meanwhile, your boy Dubya did such a masterful job that the stimulus is actually required... yep, you sure showed us. :rolleyes:

[Biggems]

I make as much sense as you...

Why shouldn't there be a ton of threads on this... it's the biggest bill in the history of our country. It's a "stimulus" bill that turned into a pork-laden government expansion bill. It's a bill engineered by the Democrats after complaining for 8 years about George Bush's spending habits. How come all of the sudden our debt doesn't matter?

I though you were an economics major? This subject should be right up your alley unless you have nothing of substance to offer.

How come the non-partisan CBO says this is a bad bill and the new administration just plunges further?

I can imagine how over the top you would be if Bush were orchestrating this...

Why wouldn't there be tons of threads on this... our great grandchildren will will be paying on it...


why bother trying to reason with libs....it is either their way or the dungeon.

[Biggems]

Meanwhile, your boy Dubya did such a masterful job that the stimulus is actually required... yep, you sure showed us. :rolleyes:


A stimulus isnt required.........the Govt is just being overbearing and foolish. We live in a capitalist economy.....you rise and fall in cycles. If you are at the top, enjoy it, cause it might not last long. If you fall, someone will rise to replace you. Oh, and you can even build yourself back up.....that is the beauty of our economic design. You can go from nothing, to something, back to nothing, and then back to something in a short time span.

In this new socialist/fascist economy that Obama and the rest of the hammer and sickled minions are trying to force feed us, once you are down....you stay down....but dont worry, the govt will tax the heck out of those that have, just so you dont have to work so hard and still get fed your cabbage water and stale bread......you just have to stand in excessively long lines on a daily basis to receive it.

[SuspectCorner]

why bother trying to reason with libs....it is either their way or the dungeon.

Actually, we're anxious to see the dungeons your gang ran closed posthaste.

[iceberg]

**** still appears to remain the same regarding the economy, and Islamic nations still don't respect us

nice

but look how progressive our nation is!!!

and you're the one who comes out after the 1st cowboys loss saying fire everyone, right?

i'm not happy with how obama is starting no. big surprise. but he's still young and learning - we'll see what he does with it.

islam (extreme) has hated for thousands of years - isn't it a tad self-serving to say their hate should stop all of a sudden because of obama when what you're really saying is "hi, cheap bullet that makes no sense but i feel like slapping obama"?

[iceberg]

Actually, we're anxious to see the dungeons your gang ran closed posthaste.

prove they're dungeons.

you just triggered my bulldog, dude.

[iceberg]

Meanwhile, your boy Dubya did such a masterful job that the stimulus is actually required... yep, you sure showed us. :rolleyes:

you mean the stimulus he did in fact give? that one failed?

won't argue there, so why are we doing it again? only this time unemployed get the bonus? is that gonna help?

[zrinkill]

Why not help the mods this week and not be one of the conservative trolls spamming the board with yet another stimulus bill thread?


When have you ever worried about "helping the mods" with all the stupid threads you start? ....... hypocrite.

[iceberg]

When have you ever worried about "helping the mods" with all the stupid threads you start? ....... hypocrite.

if we all just quit talking to him he'd go away.

[Joe Rod]

You think so?

I think a solid three party system would be much better. It would force cooperation between the parties...

A three-legged table is never unbalanced... a three party system would likely be the same...

Balanced for all times, except when the fat lady sits on the legless corner. And this economic crisis is one very, very fat lady.

[SuspectCorner]

you mean the stimulus he did in fact give? that one failed?

won't argue there, so why are we doing it again? only this time unemployed get the bonus? is that gonna help?

This concept tends to stick in a few craws. The fourth and fifth economic quintiles (and I'm not to crazy about this quintile sytem because it overlooks that the nuclear family, formerly the third quintile and "middle class", has generally transitioned toward a dual income stream - which facilitates their upward movement into the first and second quintiles even though most of them will rightly tell you they are not rich) are much more likely to spend any economic gains. The third quintiles on up become incrementally less likely to spend any gains and more likely to save. Stimulus requires spending in order to fulfill it's intent. Savings mutes the effect of a stimulus.

So, in answer to your question - yes it's going to help. Because that money is more likely to find it's way immediately back into the economy in the form of spending which primes demand and production, leading to a curb in unemployment.


http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2009/02/12200_house_gop_stimulus_tax_cuts_crs.html

[ABQCOWBOY]

I thought everything would change after 3 weeks too.


Everything has changed in 3 weeks. The thing we don't know is if it has been for the better or for the worse.

[SuspectCorner]

Everything has changed in 3 weeks. The thing we don't know is if it has been for the better or for the worse.

It's going to get worse. Any stimulus probably won't impact for about six months and hopefully slope upward over time. If not, we're in for a world of ****.

[iceberg]

This concept tends to stick in a few craws. The fourth and fifth economic quintiles (and I'm not to crazy about this quintile sytem because it overlooks that the nuclear family, formerly the third quintile and "middle class", has generally transitioned toward a dual income stream - which facilitates their upward movement into the first and second quintiles even though most of them will rightly tell you they are not rich) are much more likely to spend any economic gains. The third quintiles on up become incrementally less likely to spend any gains and more likely to save. Stimulus requires spending in order to fulfill it's intent. Savings mutes the effect of a stimulus.

So, in answer to your question - yes it's going to help. Because that money is more likely to find it's way immediately back into the economy in the form of spending which primes demand and production, leading to a curb in unemployment.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2009/02/12200_house_gop_stimulus_tax_cuts_crs.html

oh - you mean once again you have an excuse for the hypocritical things you say so you won't FEEL hypocritical?

you sound like you're writing a thesis paper. i read a lot of those in college. most were wrong.

we'll see. just odd you'll bash bush for doing it but obama doing it is pure genious.

it's amazing our country can get anything done at all.

[SuspectCorner]

oh - you mean once again you have an excuse for the hypocritical things you say so you won't FEEL hypocritical?

you sound like you're writing a thesis paper. i read a lot of those in college. most were wrong.

we'll see. just odd you'll bash bush for doing it but obama doing it is pure genious.

it's amazing our country can get anything done at all.

Please elaborate. Where was I hypocritical? But be sure to ask yourself which income group experienced the most gains under the overall Bush tax-cut system.

[Jarv]

Meanwhile, your boy Dubya did such a masterful job that the stimulus is actually required... yep, you sure showed us. :rolleyes:

Sorry bub...The economy was fine up to two years ago when your Dem Libs took power in congress. Check in with Barney Franks and my own Senator (Corrupt) Chris Dodd. Your Obuya is spending like a chick who got her 1st credit card and you acting like its the 1st month you've been sleeping with her, so its all cool.

:laugh2:

[iceberg]

Please elaborate. Where was I hypocritical? But be sure to ask yourself which income group experienced the most gains under the overall Bush tax-cut system.

so, i need to tell you where you're being hypocritical yet you tell me where to look?

dude - put the paranoia down. i make just over 6 figures and i didn't see jackwhipe come back to me for a stimulus or rebate check. so get off the "only helps the rich" crap cause i can't even smell rich from where i am.

and if the overall system is what you question, fine. but stop attacking "the rich" as if they're the bad guys. if they all packed up their crap and bought a huge island somewhere and left we'd be screwed cause we whined the smart people away and now there's no one to take care of the poor.

the "rich" pay the bulk of the taxes by nature. this has been proven and restated by many in here i seldom see you respond to.

if "the poor" want more in life, get up and go get it. being alive doesn't give you the right to be a sponger.

[iceberg]

Sorry bub...The economy was fine up to two years ago when your Dem Libs took power in congress. Check in with Barney Franks and my own Senator (Corrupt) Chris Dodd. Your Obuya is spending like a chick who got her 1st credit card and you acting like its the 1st month you've been sleeping with her, so its all cool.

:laugh2:

ya know, we need to make a bush whipping doll and sell it on the market. the extreme libs who can only advance their own hate by bashing will have their own doll to destroy all day long. we make it easy to destroy they'll buy another.

the libs are treating bush like a "get out of jail free" card in case obama screws up.

[Bob Sacamano]

and you're the one who comes out after the 1st cowboys loss saying fire everyone, right?

you should really re-consider following me around, you're freaking me out

i'm not happy with how obama is starting no. big surprise. but he's still young and learning - we'll see what he does with it.

do you actually think Obama was behind this? no, he's just pushing what his party throws on his plate

islam (extreme) has hated for thousands of years - isn't it a tad self-serving to say their hate should stop all of a sudden because of obama when what you're really saying is "hi, cheap bullet that makes no sense but i feel like slapping obama"?

isn't Obama trying to reason with these people? I thought the liberal way of thinking was to be nice and try to appease the radicals and all will be well? oh wait, that was more crap the Democrats fed us to try to get votes...

[iceberg]

you should really re-consider following me around, you're freaking me out

do you actually think Obama was behind this? no, he's just pushing what his party throws on his plate

isn't Obama trying to reason with these people? I thought the liberal way of thinking was to be nice and try to appease the radicals and all will be well? oh wait, that was more crap the Democrats fed us to try to get votes...

1. freaking you out is my hobby. good to see my skills are up to snuff.
2. no one person is behind much of anything. but if all repubs are told to vote no *or else* what are they pushing? hmmmm...
3. no need for radical soundbytes in my life - hate away.

[Bob Sacamano]

1. freaking you out is my hobby. good to see my skills are up to snuff.

you are one of the best

2. no one person is behind much of anything. but if all repubs are told to vote no *or else* what are they pushing? hmmmm...

you know what I mean

when I look at Obama, I see a figurehead, no way was he able to campaign, and still be a part of coming up with this stimulus bill

he's so inexperienced that I probably won't believe that anything ever done under his watch was his idea

3. no need for radical soundbytes in my life - hate away.

fine

[SuspectCorner]

so, i need to tell you where you're being hypocritical yet you tell me where to look?

dude - put the paranoia down. i make just over 6 figures and i didn't see jackwhipe come back to me for a stimulus or rebate check. so get off the "only helps the rich" crap cause i can't even smell rich from where i am.

and if the overall system is what you question, fine. but stop attacking "the rich" as if they're the bad guys. if they all packed up their crap and bought a huge island somewhere and left we'd be screwed cause we whined the smart people away and now there's no one to take care of the poor.

the "rich" pay the bulk of the taxes by nature. this has been proven and restated by many in here i seldom see you respond to.

if "the poor" want more in life, get up and go get it. being alive doesn't give you the right to be a sponger.


Now you're just acting silly.

Paranoid? I asked you a direct question, "Where was I hypocritical?", in response to this statement:

"oh - you mean once again you have an excuse for the hypocritical things you say so you won't FEEL hypocritical?"

And I STILL don't notice anything approaching a rational explanation for that statement, either.

Yep, your $100K-take doesn't qualify you as rich - and if you'd actually bothered to read post #34, instead of knee-jerking to it, you'd have noticed I alluded to as much.

And where's the assault on the rich? I pointed out what most economists will tell you: folks scraping to get by aren't going to be saving any income gains. It's just common sense... <snap>... ruh-roh. :D

Now, if the mere awareness that a string of tax policies - regularly pushed by Republican administrations - has fostered a system of income inequality not seen since the runup to The Great Depression... color me guilty. Is it the fault of the ultrarich? They don't set tax policy - at least not directly. But you sure won't catch me feeling sorry for them - or suggesting they get another tax break.

I'm more concerned about the honest and hardworking folks who struggle to scrape by while trying to stay in their houses, feed and clothe their families, care for their sick, and raise their kids to be better educated and better off than they were.

I'll leave any misplaced, and frequently humorous, concerns for the rich to you.




http://www.cbpp.org/4-14-04tax-sum.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/29/business/29tax.html

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080630/cavanagh_collins

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123396621006159013.html

[burmafrd]

Fact is that most of the well off are the employers. Or hold major shares of the corporations.
by the way its the far left wacko's that keep moving the measuring stick as regards who is RICH.
A lot of them think anyone making $100,000 are rich.

[JBond]

Way to make sense ... :rolleyes:

You know it's true. Count how many stimulus bill rant threads there are started this week alone.

Almost as many as the number of stupid things you community organizer has done this week.

[iceberg]

humorous concerns for the rich.

dude, i'm the anti robin hood. if you got a good reason to want to be more, i'll help. i'll push.

i'll give my all.

if you put the rich into a "take from them" category because you're alive, i'll argue against that.

you go play w/robin hood.

[Kangaroo]

humorous concerns for the rich.

dude, i'm the anti robin hood. if you got a good reason to want to be more, i'll help. i'll push.

i'll give my all.

if you put the rich into a "take from them" category because you're alive, i'll argue against that.

you go play w/robin hood.

Actually I am all Robin Hood because who did Robin Steal from

See the myth is he robbed the rich to give to the poor. The fact was he was robing the government and giving back the money that was collected as a tax. Remember the people where being over taxed and Robin hood was stealing back the tax money for people and keeping most for King Richards return.

See the liberal like the myth of Robin hood but when you break it done for what it really is which is returning tax dollars they cry.

How do some many people miss that part surprises me.

Then again most people do not realize Strange Brew is basically Hamlet

[SuspectCorner]

humorous concerns for the rich.

dude, i'm the anti robin hood. if you got a good reason to want to be more, i'll help. i'll push.

i'll give my all.

if you put the rich into a "take from them" category because you're alive, i'll argue against that.

you go play w/robin hood.

Only one hitch... the take-from-them-because-there-alive scam is largely reserved as a set of glacially steady economic actions used against the lower classes.

Erode your healthcare into non-existence, freeze your pay increases and the minimum wage despite the increasing cost of living, leave your kids with the crappy schools, etc. ...

I'd be interested to hear your explanation of how all the economy's juices aren't being steadily sucked to the top of the food chain, in ever-increasingly disparate volumes - leaving the lower classes to fight over table scraps.

We live in a society that generally exalts the "winner-take-all" mentality and cares little for larger social responsiblities. Every man for himself - f*** outdated concepts like noblesse oblige.

[silverbear]

**** still appears to remain the same regarding the economy, and Islamic nations still don't respect us

Yeah, he's been in office 24 days now, I expected everything to be all better by now...

but look how progressive our nation is!!!

As opposed to this forum, which seems to be dominated by knuckle-dragging neandercons who still haven't figured out they're not gonna be running things any more...

[silverbear]

Funny how people whined about Bush spending on the Iraq war and the dems are about to make that look like a stroll in the park

The difference being that Dubya sought out his little war, while Obama is basically having to deal with the economic crisis left to him...

NOBODY wants to spend more money these days, but something has to be done to turn the economy around...

If you don't like the spending, that's a legitimate position to take, I don't like it either... but tell me what we're supposed to be doing to address the economic crisis...

And don't say more and bigger tax cuts, that's not an option... we've tried that way, and it pretty much put us in the crapper now...

[trickblue]

Yeah, he's been in office 24 days now, I expected everything to be all better by now...

As opposed to this forum, which seems to be dominated by knuckle-dragging neandercons who still haven't figured out they're not gonna be running things any more...

Easier than Bush at minus days while the media raked him over the coals for "talking the economy down"...

Obama has done the same thing... where is the criticism?

[silverbear]

I make as much sense as you...

Why shouldn't there be a ton of threads on this... it's the biggest bill in the history of our country. It's a "stimulus" bill that turned into a pork-laden government expansion bill.

As recommended by some of our nation's finest economic minds... we have a historical precedent for that, of course, in FDR's New Deal... that was also a spending program aimed at jump-starting an economy in crisis, and it worked pretty much the way it was supposed to, Republican revisionist history notwithstanding...

It's a bill engineered by the Democrats after complaining for 8 years about George Bush's spending habits. How come all of the sudden our debt doesn't matter?

It matters a LOT, but this is a necessary evil... the alternative is to watch one major bank after another go under, tens of thousands of people will lose their homes, and unemployment will skyrocket up past 10 per cent...

And of course, the Republicans weren't complaining about Dubya's reckless deficit spending, now ALL OF A SUDDEN they're positioning themselves as the party of fiscal responsibility??

Gimme a break... they're more or less the ones who screwed up the economy, now they're telling us the other guy's ideas won't work... well, excuse me, but after watching their inept handling of the economy, as far as I'm concerned only an IDIOT would listen to ANYTHING they have to say about economic matters these days...

Why wouldn't there be tons of threads on this... our great grandchildren will will be paying on it...

And here you are, blaming the wrong people for that...

[silverbear]

why bother trying to reason with libs....it is either their way or the dungeon.


Actually, it's your heroes who gave us "dungeons"...

And of course, you say you can't "reason" with libs, even as you prove that reasoning is probably beyond you...

[silverbear]

prove they're dungeons.

you just triggered my bulldog, dude.

And yet, you failed to call out Biggems for invoking "dungeons" in the first place... perhaps you think that "libs" DO have "dungeons" around to punish those who refuse to think like them??

Seems your "bulldog" has a partisan agenda...

But by my standards, jail cells where prisoners are tortured are indeed "dungeons"...

[silverbear]

ya know, we need to make a bush whipping doll and sell it on the market. the extreme libs who can only advance their own hate by bashing will have their own doll to destroy all day long. we make it easy to destroy they'll buy another.

the libs are treating bush like a "get out of jail free" card in case obama screws up.

Gee, sounds JUST like what we see in here regularly from the right-- "but... but... but CLINTON"...

You periodically claim to despise hypocrisy, and y'know, I believe you... but then you go and engage in it your own self...

Yes, it's quite likely that the left will continue to hold up the inadequacies of the last President to defend that current one, EXACTLY the way the right continues to do with Clinton, even after their boy Dubya is no longer in office...

[silverbear]

when I look at Obama, I see a figurehead, no way was he able to campaign, and still be a part of coming up with this stimulus bill

Nobody ever claimed this stimulus bill was entirely his idea... what he did is what a GOOD leader does, he brought in a bunch of experts on the subject, they bounced ideas off of each other, then figured out which ones sounded best to them...

I realize that's a radical departure from the last President, but it's actually a smart way of doing things...

he's so inexperienced that I probably won't believe that anything ever done under his watch was his idea

Y'know, I don't really CARE whose idea it is, if it's a GOOD idea... beyond that, I can only note that he was no more inexperienced than Dubya was when he took office...

[silverbear]

Easier than Bush at minus days while the media raked him over the coals for "talking the economy down"...

Obama has done the same thing... where is the criticism?

In here... and everywhere else, if you're actually LOOKING for it... hell, I can even link you to critical articles on the freakin' Huffington Post...

Yes, Obama is catching a fair amount of heat right now, and if you don't realize that, it might be time to expand your reading material...

[BigWillie]

**** still appears to remain the same regarding the economy, and Islamic nations still don't respect us

nice

but look how progressive our nation is!!!

http://www.nba.com/media/gonefishin_title.jpg

And you hooked quite a few to boot. Nicely played.

[SkinsFan28]

What gets to me in all these conversations, and there are similar ones on the Skins off topic board, is that the discussion always puts the responsibility on the President, Bush or Obama it doesn't matter, but the Constitution would lay it on the feet of the House of Reps. since only they can initiate spending bills. Yes a president sways the direction since he can veto any bill, but as we saw back in the day, that becomes a huge game of chicken.
Truthfully the worst situation is when either party controls all 3 entities (House, Senate, and Presidency) because the checks and balances get thrown out, or severely weakened.
One last line- Recessions are cyclical, but government spending is here to stay.

[iceberg]

And yet, you failed to call out Biggems for invoking "dungeons" in the first place... perhaps you think that "libs" DO have "dungeons" around to punish those who refuse to think like them??

Seems your "bulldog" has a partisan agenda...

But by my standards, jail cells where prisoners are tortured are indeed "dungeons"...

perhaps i was reading from the bottom up and didn't see it.

but you must be right and all. : )

[iceberg]

Gee, sounds JUST like what we see in here regularly from the right-- "but... but... but CLINTON"...

You periodically claim to despise hypocrisy, and y'know, I believe you... but then you go and engage in it your own self...

Yes, it's quite likely that the left will continue to hold up the inadequacies of the last President to defend that current one, EXACTLY the way the right continues to do with Clinton, even after their boy Dubya is no longer in office...

THEY may have done that sb, whoever THEY are.

i did not. save that argument for someone doing it. i ain't taking the bait.

[silverbear]

perhaps i was reading from the bottom up and didn't see it.

but you must be right and all. : )

Well, I almost always am... :D

[silverbear]

THEY may have done that sb, whoever THEY are.

i did not. save that argument for someone doing it. i ain't taking the bait.

You're actually the one who threw out the bait, with your generic observation about "extreme libs"... in response, I made an equally generic observation about how "extreme cons" did the exact same thing to Clinton, indeed they STILL do it...

And while you might not have personally engaged in such festivities, I'll note that I don't recall you ever calling out those who did, the way your post about "extreme libs" called them (me) out for their Bush bashing...

That was my point, that once again, for all your claims of trying to see both sides of an argument, your outrage here is rather selective... it annoys you that people bash Dubya, but again, I can't recall you EVER expressing such annoyance when one of the righties in here pulls out the "but... but... but CLINTON" argument...

At this point, I have to quote you, from earlier in this thread:

the libs are treating bush like a "get out of jail free" card in case obama screws up.

And my point is that for 8 years, the "cons" treated Clinton like a "get out of jail free" card whenever Dubya screwed up... and you never seemed to have a problem with that, so your irritation now that it's being done to Dubya rings kind of hypocritical to me...

[iceberg]

You're actually the one who threw out the bait, with your generic observation about "extreme libs"... in response,

i'll stop there. coming from mr "you righties!' you've not room to worry about how someone else stereotypes anything. is that vast overclassification a one way street? the righties suck and the lefties are just wholesome americans?

[ajk23az]

Silverbear:

Do you not know how to use the "multi-quote" function?

Or is it that you do, and just want to add to your post count? Geesh

[iceberg]

Silverbear:

Do you not know how to use the "quote" function?

Or is it that you do, and just want to add to your post count? Geesh

he knows quote, it's multi-quote he doesn't use. : )

[silverbear]

i'll stop there. coming from mr "you righties!' you've not room to worry about how someone else stereotypes anything. is that vast overclassification a one way street? the righties suck and the lefties are just wholesome americans?

I just thought you professed to detest that sort of stereotyping, now here you are, engaging in it...

[iceberg]

I just thought you professed to detest that sort of stereotyping, now here you are, engaging in it...

heh, when you talk to a child, it helps to talk childlike. : )

kidding sb - but i was more asking a question in my own sarcastic way.

[silverbear]

Silverbear:

Do you not know how to use the "multi-quote" function?

Or is it that you do, and just want to add to your post count? Geesh

Neither, actually...

I read down a thread, and respond to posts that I find interesting as I come to them... so if I find 6 consecutive posts in a thread that I find interesting, I respond 6 times...

Given that I have often been mocked for the length of my posts-- even by my friends-- I'm probably doing you a service by chopping my posts up... if I used the multiquote feature my posts would be impossibly long...

So if my posting style bothers you, I invite you to skip right on over my posts... if it REALLY annoys you, put me on ignore...

I say that with no hostility whatsoever, but I'm not planning on changing my posting style any time soon...

[silverbear]

he knows quote, it's multi-quote he doesn't use. : )

And you should all thank me for that... LOL...

[silverbear]

heh, when you talk to a child, it helps to talk childlike. : )

Yeah, I really have to dumb down my act to post in here... :D

kidding sb - but i was more asking a question in my own sarcastic way.

I know, ol' buddy, and my response was in that same spirit...

[JBond]

This concept tends to stick in a few craws. The fourth and fifth economic quintiles (and I'm not to crazy about this quintile sytem because it overlooks that the nuclear family, formerly the third quintile and "middle class", has generally transitioned toward a dual income stream - which facilitates their upward movement into the first and second quintiles even though most of them will rightly tell you they are not rich) are much more likely to spend any economic gains. The third quintiles on up become incrementally less likely to spend any gains and more likely to save. Stimulus requires spending in order to fulfill it's intent. Savings mutes the effect of a stimulus.

So, in answer to your question - yes it's going to help. Because that money is more likely to find it's way immediately back into the economy in the form of spending which primes demand and production, leading to a curb in unemployment.


http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2009/02/12200_house_gop_stimulus_tax_cuts_crs.html

Where is money going to come from? Are they going to print it igniting inflation, or are they going to go further into debt to foreign nations borrowing it, or are they simple going to take it from those who have it?

What will Obama do to pay for the Pork?

[JBond]

What gets to me in all these conversations, and there are similar ones on the Skins off topic board, is that the discussion always puts the responsibility on the President, Bush or Obama it doesn't matter, but the Constitution would lay it on the feet of the House of Reps. since only they can initiate spending bills. Yes a president sways the direction since he can veto any bill, but as we saw back in the day, that becomes a huge game of chicken.
Truthfully the worst situation is when either party controls all 3 entities (House, Senate, and Presidency) because the checks and balances get thrown out, or severely weakened.
One last line- Recessions are cyclical, but government spending is here to stay.

Good points. Why was TARP passed in the Senate first after being shot down in the House? Does anyone have an answer to this?

[silverbear]

Where is money going to come from? Are they going to print it igniting inflation, or are they going to go further into debt to foreign nations borrowing it, or are they simple going to take it from those who have it?

What will Obama do to pay for the Pork?

Where was you concern for the economy when Dubya was pissing away billions of dollars in the deserts of Iraq, in pursuit of a bogus war??

[iceberg]

Where was you concern for the economy when Dubya was pissing away billions of dollars in the deserts of Iraq, in pursuit of a bogus war??

so if bush was wrong, does this mean the dems can be wrong too?

i don't get your logic.

[Bob Sacamano]

so if bush was wrong, does this mean the dems can be wrong too?

i don't get your logic.

the dems are never wrong

don't you get it, they're the anit-Dubya/Repubs, the right party

[Jordan55]

How anyone could support this crock is beyond me.
So Bear, my liberal friend lets hear it, your the only one I know who would even attempt it.
The inmates are running the asylum
Obama wrote in an op-ed piece in the Washington Post that if Congress does not pass his "stimulus" package, and do so right away, "Our nation will slip deeper into a crisis that, at some point, we may not be able to reverse." "Wow," I thought when I read this, "The stimulus bill must contain some really important stuff if it's critical to the survival of our country! I better take a closer look. Maybe the guy is really onto something." So, I did some internet research and here is just some of the massive spending proposed in the bill:



-- $50 million for the National Endowment for the Arts

-- $380 million for the Women, Infants & Children welfare program

-- $300 million in grants to combat violence against women

-- $1.2 billion to provide "youth" with summer jobs

-- $2.4 billion for "neighborhood stabilization" activities

-- $650 million for digital TV coupons A

-- $150 million for the Smithsonian

-- $34 million to renovate the Dept. of Commerce headquarters

-- $500 million for improvements to the National Institute of Health facility

-- $44 million for repairs to the Dept. of Agriculture's headquarters

-- $350 million for agriculture department computers

-- $88 million to move (that's right, move) the Public Health Service into a new building.

-- $1 billion for the Census Bureau

-- $89 billion for Medicaid

-- $30 billion for COBRA extensions

-- $36 billion for expanded unemployment

-- $20 billion for food stamps

-- $850 million for Amtrak

-- $87 million for a "polar ice breaking ship" (What about the ice caps melting because of global warming?)

--$1.7 million for the National Park Service

-- $55 million for the Historic Preservation Fund

-- $7.6 million for the Rural Advancement Program

-- $150 million for "agricultural commodity purchases"

-- $150 million for producers of livestock, farm-raised fish and honey bees

-- $160 million for paid volunteers (what is a "paid volunteer"?) at the Corporation for National and Community Service Are we really to believe Obama that we may not be able to reverse our country's slide if he and Congress are prevented from ramming all this pork down our throats? And, by the way, what happened to Obama's pledge to end pork barrel spending?

Another interesting tidbit: Obama said that one of the reasons Congress must pass the stimulus bill, and must pass it NOW, is to end our dependence on foreign oil. What is astonishing is that he made this proclamation about energy independence less than 24 hours after his new interior secretary canceled the oil and gas leases on 77 parcels of federal land.

We are only two weeks into this guy's term and already he and his party are out of control. Bear you have to be proud.

[silverbear]

so if bush was wrong, does this mean the dems can be wrong too?

Of course it does...

i don't get your logic.

And I don't get your question-- have I ever suggested the Democrats were infallible??

It seems that here lately you're trying to paint an unfairly extreme portrait of me, I presume in an effort to marginalize me... now, don't get me wrong, I freely admit that I am pretty extreme, but I'm simply not as far out there as you're trying to make me out to be...

[silverbear]

How anyone could support this crock is beyond me.

And yet, over 60 per cent of the country does...

This suggests that a lot of things are "beyond you"...


Obama wrote in an op-ed piece in the Washington Post that if Congress does not pass his "stimulus" package, and do so right away, "Our nation will slip deeper into a crisis that, at some point, we may not be able to reverse." "Wow," I thought when I read this, "The stimulus bill must contain some really important stuff if it's critical to the survival of our country! I better take a closer look. Maybe the guy is really onto something." So, I did some internet research and here is just some of the massive spending proposed in the bill:



-- $50 million for the National Endowment for the Arts

Which was a concession given to REPUBLICAN Arlen Specter... it wouldn't have been in there if the Democrats didn't need his vote...

-- $380 million for the Women, Infants & Children welfare program

-- $300 million in grants to combat violence against women

-- $1.2 billion to provide "youth" with summer jobs

And you have a problem with those programs?? I guess you have a problem with making sure infants in this nation get bare minimum nutrition, but at the same time, you have no problem with violence against women...

-- $150 million for the Smithsonian

-- $34 million to renovate the Dept. of Commerce headquarters

-- $500 million for improvements to the National Institute of Health facility

-- $44 million for repairs to the Dept. of Agriculture's headquarters

-- $350 million for agriculture department computers

-- $88 million to move (that's right, move) the Public Health Service into a new building.

These are called infrastructure expenses, the kind of thing that was at the core of FDR's New Deal... it is a tactic that has been tried before to combat a serious recession/depression, and had fair success...

People are going to be put to work doing those renovations, and hopefully, but the time those jobs are done, the economy will be on the rebound, and those workers will be able to quickly find new jobs...

I could go through your list line by line, and give you good reasons for most (not all) of them... but the point is, these are the kinds of programs that have jump-started our economy when it needed jumpstarting in the past... and the fringe benefit is we get new buildings to enjoy, new roads to drive on (or at least newly repaired old roads)...

Another interesting tidbit: Obama said that one of the reasons Congress must pass the stimulus bill, and must pass it NOW, is to end our dependence on foreign oil. What is astonishing is that he made this proclamation about energy independence less than 24 hours after his new interior secretary canceled the oil and gas leases on 77 parcels of federal land.

And once again, in typical right wing disingenuous fashion, you give us PART of the stories...

Those 77 leases were granted at the last minute by Dubya, a "gift" to his oil buddies, and were tied up in litigation in court, and are currently under a temporary restraining order... they were also right adjacent to national parkland...

In fact, those leases were awarded ILLEGALLY, as they did not follow Bureau of Land Management rules (which call for the BLM to approve each lease sold)...

So, Dubya tried another of his end runs around the rules, and Obama put a stop to it... and BTW, Salazar said that some of those leases might be put back up for auction, once he reviews the specifics of each lease...


We are only two weeks into this guy's term and already he and his party are out of control. Bear you have to be proud.

You say he's out of control, I say he's doing exactly what he said he'd do during the campaign...

And yeah, so far, so good... he's screwed up some things, mostly out of inexperience, but he's gotten an awful lot accomplished in a short time...

And FWIW, we're now 26 days into his term, which is closer to 4 weeks than 2... see, time DOES fly when you're having fun!!! :laugh2:

[Jordan55]

So the bottom line is your happy with this stimlus package
-- $380 million for the Women, Infants & Children welfare program

-- $300 million in grants to combat violence against women

-- $1.2 billion to provide "youth" with summer jobs

Has nothing do with stimulating the economy

-- $150 million for the Smithsonian

-- $34 million to renovate the Dept. of Commerce headquarters

-- $500 million for improvements to the National Institute of Health facility

-- $44 million for repairs to the Dept. of Agriculture's headquarters

-- $350 million for agriculture department computers

-- $88 million to move (that's right, move) the Public Health Service into a new building.

Sure looks like permanent work, This should really help all of us in the the private sector

Those 77 leases were granted at the last minute by Dubya, a "gift" to his oil buddies, and were tied up in litigation in court, and are currently under a temporary restraining order... they were also right adjacent to national parkland

Bottom line it was the enviromental groups
Salazar said he and his officials will "take a fresh look" at oil and gas leasing on these 77 parcels, but said they could be subject to leasing in the future.

"That doesn't mean that at some point in time there won't be additional leases with respect with these 77 parcels," the secretary said today. "It may be there is a portion or even a large part of it that will be subject to a new lease sale in the future," he said.

Still, the environmental groups who have fought these leases are encouraged by Salazar's action.

[silverbear]

So the bottom line is your happy with this stimlus package
-- $380 million for the Women, Infants & Children welfare program

-- $300 million in grants to combat violence against women

-- $1.2 billion to provide "youth" with summer jobs

Has nothing do with stimulating the economy

The WIC program is just the right thing to do, because in these economic hard times, there will be considerably more mothers needing help just to feed their kids... I guess you'd be OK with letting those kids starve??

The grants to combat violence against women is also a good thing, but I might be inclined to agree that it shouldn't have been included in this package... the best I can figure the rationalization for that one is that with more husbands unemployed, more wives might face violence as a result of the spouse's frustrations over his job situation...

Even so, I'm inclined to give you that one... I think there was no need to tack that on to this bill, that it probably would have passed on its own...

But the youths program, that's a JOBS program, and that most assuredly does help stimulate the economy... those kids who now have jobs will be buying Playstations and DVDs and such...


-- $34 million to renovate the Dept. of Commerce headquarters

-- $500 million for improvements to the National Institute of Health facility

-- $44 million for repairs to the Dept. of Agriculture's headquarters

-- $350 million for agriculture department computers

-- $88 million to move (that's right, move) the Public Health Service into a new building.

Sure looks like permanent work, This should really help all of us in the the private sector

It's not intended to be permanent work, it's just a way for people who suddenly find themselves unemployed to pay the bills until the economy rebounds... and hopefully, the spending those newly-employed people will engage now that they have paychecks again will help stimulate that recovery...

And in the process, we get an upgraded infrastructure that will better serve us in the years to come...

Those 77 leases were granted at the last minute by Dubya, a "gift" to his oil buddies, and were tied up in litigation in court, and are currently under a temporary restraining order... they were also right adjacent to national parkland

Bottom line it was the enviromental groups

Bottom line, it doesn't matter who was behind it, it was sleazy of Dubya to dole out those leases like candy, right before he skated out of the Oval Office... did you know that all 77 of those leases combined went for SIX MILLION dollars??

Either Dubya gave his boys a real bargain price (some bargain, that works out to a little over 45 bucks an acre), or the scientists don't think there's all that much oil or gas to be found under those properties...

I think if nothing else, Salazar could get a much better, fairer price for those leases... basically, it looks to me like Dubya was GIVING them away...

What Dubya did was quite slimy, a final payoff to the boys who bankrolled his election campaigns, and Salazar is right to put a stop to it, take another look at the whole deal... either he'll ultimately side with the environmental groups and not put those parcels up for lease at all, or alternatively, he'll put them back up for lease and get a better price for them...

[iceberg]

Of course it does...

And I don't get your question-- have I ever suggested the Democrats were infallible??

It seems that here lately you're trying to paint an unfairly extreme portrait of me, I presume in an effort to marginalize me... now, don't get me wrong, I freely admit that I am pretty extreme, but I'm simply not as far out there as you're trying to make me out to be...

i'm painting what i see sb. many others see the same thing. if you don't see it, who's fault is that?

if it's unfair, then quit acting that way.

[MetalHead]

i'm painting what i see sb. many others see the same thing. if you don't see it, who's fault is that?

if it's unfair, then quit acting that way.

SB thinks like this:

Walks like a duck,quacks like a duck...it must be a cat.
There are blind men,and men who are unwilling to see.

[masomenos]

There are blind men,and men who are unwilling to see.

And then there's those tools who wear sun glasses inside, I hate that.


:D

[MetalHead]

And then there's those tools who wear sun glasses inside, I hate that.


:D

Masomenos wears his sunglasses at night...:D

[MetalHead]

Where was you concern for the economy when Dubya was pissing away billions of dollars in the deserts of Iraq, in pursuit of a bogus war??

Answer the question.

[masomenos]

Masomenos wears his sunglasses at night...:D

Ouch!

:laugh1:

[Bob Sacamano]

Masomenos wears his sunglasses at night...:D

I hate those people

means I must hate mason:mad: