My Condolences to the families of the Oakland cops

[PullMyFinger]

Coming from a family that has Cops in it (My uncle is a retired Texas state trooper, my father-in-law is a retired NYC cop) my condolences to the families of the three Oakland cops that lost their lives, and the fourth one thats hanging on.

You rarely hear of that many at one time, man this must be a sad day for that city.

[Bob Sacamano]

what exactly happened?

[5Stars]

what exactly happened?


Go read the article on MSN.com

[Bob Sacamano]

Go read the article on MSN.com

name?

[the kid 05]

OAKLAND, Calif. - A police officer was battling for his life and three more were dead after a parolee with an "extensive criminal history" opened fire at a routine traffic stop and hours later gunned down members of a SWAT team searching for him.

The gunman was also killed Saturday, capping a day of violence that the Oakland Police Department said was the worst in its history. Never before had three police officers died in the line of duty on the same day.

"It's in these moments that words are extraordinarily inadequate," said Mayor Ron Dellums at a somber news conference Saturday night.

The mayhem began that afternoon, when two motorcycle patrol officers stopped a 1995 Buick sedan in east Oakland, Oakland police spokesman Jeff Thomason said. The driver opened fire, killing Sgt. Mark Dunakin, 40, and gravely wounding Officer John Hege, 41.

Gunman flees on foot
The gunman then fled on foot, police said, leading to an intense manhunt by dozens of Oakland police, California Highway Patrol officers and Alameda County sheriff deputies. Streets were roped off and an entire area of east Oakland closed to traffic.

About two hours later, officers got an anonymous tip that the gunman was inside a nearby apartment building.

A SWAT team had entered an apartment to clear and search it when the gunman shot them with an assault rifle, police said.

Sgt. Ervin Romans, 43, and Sgt. Daniel Sakai, 35, were killed and a third officer was grazed by a bullet, police said.

SWAT team members returned fire, killing 26-year-old Lovelle Mixon of Oakland, Acting Oakland police Chief Howard Jordan said.

Officer Hege suffered brain damage and may not survive, his father, Dr. John S. Hege, said late Saturday.

"It is a stunning thing to face," he said.

On Sunday, Mixon's family defended the 26-year-old parolee.

Image: Lovelle Mixon
Oakland P.D. / Getty Images
Lovelle Mixon
Twenty-eight-year-old LaTasha Mixon of Sacramento said Sunday her cousin was "not a monster." She said her family's prayers were with the slain officers' relatives.

Grieving officers
Grieving officers at the police station hugged and consoled each other. People left four bouquets of white roses under a granite memorial wall inside the building lobby that lists 47 officers killed in the line of duty. The wall shows the last officer killed in Oakland was in January of 1999.

Police said Mixon wielded two different weapons. One gun was used at the first scene and an assault rifle was used at the apartment building where he was hiding.

Jordan said Mixon had an "extensive criminal history" and was wanted on a no-bail warrant.

"(Mixon) was on parole and he had a warrant out for his arrest for violating that parole. And he was on parole for assault with a deadly weapon," said Oakland police Deputy Chief Jeffery Israel.

Police said they did not know exactly why the officers initially stopped the suspect, but said it apparently was a routine traffic stop.

Click for related content
Police, economic woes grow in Oakland
Read more news from the U.S.

People lingered at the scene of the first shooting. About 20 bystanders taunted police.

Tension between police and the community has risen steadily since the fatal shooting of unarmed 22-year-old Oscar Grant by a transit police officer at an Oakland train station on Jan. 1.

That former Bay Area Rapid Transit officer, Johannes Mehserle, has pleaded not guilty to a murder charge. A preliminary hearing is scheduled for Monday. Violent protests erupted on the streets of Oakland in the weeks after Grant's death, further inflaming tensions.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger planned to fly to Oakland on Sunday from Washington, D.C., to meet with police and Mayor Dellums, the govenor's office said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29817606

[PullMyFinger]

four cops were shot by a suspect that was later killed himself.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-03-21-police_N.htm?csp=34

[5Stars]

On Sunday, Mixon's family defended the 26-year-old parolee.

Twenty-eight-year-old LaTasha Mixon of Sacramento said Sunday her cousin was "not a monster." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29817606


:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Yeah, right...he's just misunderstood.

[the kid 05]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Yeah, right...he's just misunderstood.

took the words right out of my mouth :D

just kidding

[ShiningStar]

To bad he killed himself, we could have taught him a lesson by leaving him in prison the rest of his life. That would have taught him severly.

You can take all the lives you can, just to learn your lesson, you get to keep yours while behind bars, but we're not savages, you can have cable, education, 3 meals a day, enough space to live in, your own rights, a good attorney to make sure you get all these benefits. WE are however, going to lay down the law and make a strict policy of no teddy bears. That will learn you hard.

[ninja]

"People lingered at the scene of the first shooting. About 20 bystanders taunted police."

How nice of those 20 to taunt the police. That shows you what type of people they are.

How did 2 SWAT officers get killed at the 2nd scene? They should have had a much better plan. Something went way wrong at the 2nd scene.

[Bob Sacamano]

"People lingered at the scene of the first shooting. About 20 bystanders taunted police."

How nice of those 20 to taunt the police. That shows you what type of people they are.

How did 2 SWAT officers get killed at the 2nd scene? They should have had a much better plan. Something went way wrong at the 2nd scene.

****ing ghetto rats

[Jon88]

This comes right after the shooting of 22 year old Oscar Grant. He was handcuffed and laying on the ground and an officer shot him in the back and killed him. That's probably why the crowd did that.

[Bob Sacamano]

This comes right after the shooting of 22 year old Oscar Grant. He was handcuffed and laying on the ground and an officer shot him in the back and killed him. That's probably why the crowd did that.

it's Oakland dude

[DMOB]

****ing ghetto rats

:hammer::hammer::hammer:

[ShiningStar]

I gotta say Oscar wasnt as innocent as everyone wants to believe. There were 2-3 cops on the scene, than a few other articles i read said 7 with more coming. 7 cops and none of them cant finger the cop or start something. I am sure they all werent white either.

Oscar is cuffed and put on the ground and in 1 article i read he's scuffling, which pretty much means resisting.

Regardless of Oscar self proclaiming himself as a peacemaker, he was involved in what was going on, either someone trying to proclaim peace in the middle of a tense environment, or the cops got him for something and made the wrong mistake of shooting him.

Why even in this day a cop even dares draw a gun is beyond me, but amid police who didnt draw their gun on him for cold blooded murder is insane.

But im not going to say Oscar was this dream the articles are drawing him up to be. He was defintely in a bad area, assuradly in a place where cops were called too or just hanging out there with nothing to do hoping something happens, and more were called in so im sure they love to get together and see how much damage they can cause and who gets sued the most.

Every article doesnt even touch on why the cops were there to begin with. And why all the cops are hush hush, im sure the settlement for witnesseing murder and not being able to sleep and psychological damage would be far more rewarding than the salary of being a good for nothing cop.

[ShiningStar]

it's Oakland dude


Oakland or not, its pretty vicious of what happened, but the full story is not told on both sides.

[5Stars]

Oakland or not, its pretty vicious of what happened, but the full story is not told on both sides.


I just watched the actually video of the shooting...lots of stuff going on there!

:eek:

[ninja]

This comes right after the shooting of 22 year old Oscar Grant. He was handcuffed and laying on the ground and an officer shot him in the back and killed him. That's probably why the crowd did that.

The only plausible explanation I have heard so far for that subway/train shooting was that the officer mistakenly grabbed his gun thinking it was his taser. Don't know if that happened or not. I never saw a taser. Don't know if it looks like a gun.

No police officer is going to shoot someone in the back with so many people around on purpose. Doesn't make sense.

[Jon88]

The only plausible explanation I have heard so far for that subway/train shooting was that the officer mistakenly grabbed his gun thinking it was his taser. Don't know if that happened or not. I never saw a taser. Don't know if it looks like a gun.

No police officer is going to shoot someone in the back with so many people around on purpose. Doesn't make sense.


Who knows. A gun and a taser are 2 different things that weigh and feel different. I can't believe he couldn't tell.

[the kid 05]

Who knows. A gun and a taser are 2 different things that weigh and feel different. I can't believe he couldn't tell.

http://www.aurorawdc.com/ci/taser_stinger.jpg

http://www.enemyforces.net/firearms/glock17_3.jpg

completely different. grips are different, textures are different, weight DEF different (pos cops)

[ShiningStar]

I just watched the actually video of the shooting...lots of stuff going on there!

:eek:


which stil makes me wonder, what is going on, why was that guy there if hes so peaceful.

[the kid 05]

which stil makes me wonder, what is going on, why was that guy there if hes so peaceful.

if you had 4 people forcing you down would you be peaceful? i've seen 3 different angles of the shooting and saw NOTHING worth warranting the cop bring out his pistol and shooting him

[ShiningStar]

if you had 4 people forcing you down would you be peaceful? i've seen 3 different angles of the shooting and saw NOTHING worth warranting the cop bring out his pistol and shooting him


yeah if its always cops, you go down peacefully. You have to understand, you are talking from a safe place, probably a safe nieghborhood and chances are good a safe life.

Those cops, dont. Easy as that, from word from the street, from the media, from anyone who wants to predict gangs are taking over, from worried uninformed people and most importantly the cops with guns in their faces.

its not an easy life. You have to take into account everything from a scene in as little time as you can, with the best guess that you can or you die.

you get a little touchy out there and people, ALL people are quick to pull a gun.

if used to be the rule up until the '50's, do as the cop asks, everything will go easier. Now we have different cops, different rules, different cultures, different media. Its a mad house and no politician wants to touch it til campaign time.

let me also make this very clear, we have told kids, its okay to kill if you are beneath a certain age. So that means at 11-14, chances are great you are not going ot be convicted of murder and sent to prison for life. you go to juve and what have you and out by 18. this does not bode well across the boards.

kids are getting guns easily, they know how to use them, they know how to kill and we are seeing that.

like i said, and if you can prove it fine, but i read 4 articles on it and no one can explain to me what was going down, why the other cops didnt attack the cop in the courts, back at the station, or anywhere. Something went down and the self proclaimed peacemaker was in the middle of it. either wrong time wrong place, or right place, wrong time.

Something evil was going down and the cop made the wrong wrong choice.

[jackrussell]

Coming from a family that has Cops in it (My uncle is a retired Texas state trooper, my father-in-law is a retired NYC cop) my condolences to the families of the three Oakland cops that lost their lives, and the fourth one thats hanging on.

You rarely hear of that many at one time, man this must be a sad day for that city.

Given your total insensitivity to the Richardson lady for 'choosing' to ski, one would think, for consistency sake, you'd feel the same way for people who 'choose' a profession in which such dangers are known hazards to the job.

[silverbear]

To bad he killed himself, we could have taught him a lesson by leaving him in prison the rest of his life. That would have taught him severly.

You can take all the lives you can, just to learn your lesson, you get to keep yours while behind bars, but we're not savages, you can have cable, education, 3 meals a day, enough space to live in, your own rights, a good attorney to make sure you get all these benefits. WE are however, going to lay down the law and make a strict policy of no teddy bears. That will learn you hard.

Kinda forgot about the gang rape, and the ever-present chance of being stabbed by some other psychopath at that sleepaway camp, didn't you??

Mind you, I'm glad this guy is dead, but you're making prison sound like a great deal for any poor person...

[silverbear]

if used to be the rule up until the '50's, do as the cop asks, everything will go easier.

For anybody with a lick of sense, that's still the rule... and it's a rule that has allowed me to live my entire 56 years without ever coming CLOSE to getting put in handcuffs... for that matter, a polite and respectful attitude has gotten me out of a couple-three tickets in the day...

And yes, on at least one occasion I ran into a cop who was quite abusive of his power... pulled his gun on me and my nephew, when we've just arrived home from work (in fact, we were still in the carport), because Michael had DARED to flip him off on the interstate for blocking traffic while talking on his cell phone (the cop was on his way home from a shift, in his personal vehicle)...

I calmly did everything that officer told me to, never uttered a disrespectful word, even as I was seething inside... instead, I got on the horn to his department, filed a formal complaint... the next time he showed up on my property, it was with his hat in his hand, and he was apologizing to me... he also tore up the tickets he wrote Michael, which I expected because the supervisor I talked to said he had no jurisdiction to ticket the kid for anything...

But gee, I wonder why inner city cops would be trigger happy, with folks like you treating them like the enemy all the time?? I have a hunch that if you worked in an environment where people ganged up and taunted you for doing your job, you'd be suspicious of everybody too... throw in a certain level of violence that goes along with the job, and I can see how the police are quick to respond with violence... and yeah, sometimes they'll make bad calls, use too much violence for the situation, and when that happens, they should face the full wrath of the law...

But I'd suggest that the problem lies not with the cops, but rather with the attitude of folks like you... you and those like you create the hostile dynamic, for the most part (I'm allowing for the possibility that among the hundreds of thousands of law enforcement types around the country, one or two of them could be psychopaths)...

If there's one thing that's utterly predictable, it's that every time this forum takes on the difficult subject of law enforcement, somebody's gonna come in here expressing their hatred of the police... and whenever that happens, I come away with the impression that said critic has had more than one run-in with the law, and of course he'd never bring himself to admit that he might be the one to blame for those problems... so it becomes the cop's fault, then before long it's "all cops are garbage"...

What I find distasteful about you doing that here is that the cops killed in Oakland did nothing wrong, other than stumble across and armed and deranged criminal...but can you find the humanity in you to express some concern for their families?? NOOOOOO, you cannot, instead you seem to blame them for getting themselves killed...

I guess you'd rather live in a society without police, eh??

[ShiningStar]

Kinda forgot about the gang rape, and the ever-present chance of being stabbed by some other psychopath at that sleepaway camp, didn't you??

Mind you, I'm glad this guy is dead, but you're making prison sound like a great deal for any poor person...


Its got its ups. I am sure you are fortunate and smart enough to stay away from them, but for some people, it works, you may not agree. From my research i have found it works and helps build a better thug.

[ShiningStar]

For anybody with a lick of sense, that's still the rule... and it's a rule that has allowed me to live my entire 56 years without ever coming CLOSE to getting put in handcuffs... for that matter, a polite and respectful attitude has gotten me out of a couple-three tickets in the day...

And yes, on at least one occasion I ran into a cop who was quite abusive of his power... pulled his gun on me and my nephew, when we've just arrived home from work (in fact, we were still in the carport), because Michael had DARED to flip him off on the interstate for blocking traffic while talking on his cell phone (the cop was on his way home from a shift, in his personal vehicle)...

I calmly did everything that officer told me to, never uttered a disrespectful word, even as I was seething inside... instead, I got on the horn to his department, filed a formal complaint... the next time he showed up on my property, it was with his hat in his hand, and he was apologizing to me... he also tore up the tickets he wrote Michael, which I expected because the supervisor I talked to said he had no jurisdiction to ticket the kid for anything...

But gee, I wonder why inner city cops would be trigger happy, with folks like you treating them like the enemy all the time?? I have a hunch that if you worked in an environment where people ganged up and taunted you for doing your job, you'd be suspicious of everybody too... throw in a certain level of violence that goes along with the job, and I can see how the police are quick to respond with violence... and yeah, sometimes they'll make bad calls, use too much violence for the situation, and when that happens, they should face the full wrath of the law...

But I'd suggest that the problem lies not with the cops, but rather with the attitude of folks like you... you and those like you create the hostile dynamic, for the most part (I'm allowing for the possibility that among the hundreds of thousands of law enforcement types around the country, one or two of them could be psychopaths)...

If there's one thing that's utterly predictable, it's that every time this forum takes on the difficult subject of law enforcement, somebody's gonna come in here expressing their hatred of the police... and whenever that happens, I come away with the impression that said critic has had more than one run-in with the law, and of course he'd never bring himself to admit that he might be the one to blame for those problems... so it becomes the cop's fault, then before long it's "all cops are garbage"...

What I find distasteful about you doing that here is that the cops killed in Oakland did nothing wrong, other than stumble across and armed and deranged criminal...but can you find the humanity in you to express some concern for their families?? NOOOOOO, you cannot, instead you seem to blame them for getting themselves killed...

I guess you'd rather live in a society without police, eh??

Youy are making this personal for no reason SB and for your matter I nearly became a cop, other reasons stopped me. STop making it personal, i was defending the cop, which did a heinous crime, if he killed that guy in cold blood murder, liking cops or being a cop, something is wrong there.

I made the case that the person was in way over his head and trying to put myself in his place and the cops and see how it ended up that way.


Again, stop making it personal.

[silverbear]

Its got its ups. I am sure you are fortunate and smart enough to stay away from them, but for some people, it works, you may not agree. From my research i have found it works and helps build a better thug.

Got some personal experience in that area, do you??

[silverbear]

Youy are making this personal for no reason SB and for your matter I nearly became a cop, other reasons stopped me. STop making it personal, i was defending the cop, which did a heinous crime, if he killed that guy in cold blood murder, liking cops or being a cop, something is wrong there.

I made the case that the person was in way over his head and trying to put myself in his place and the cops and see how it ended up that way.

Which was completely irrelevant to this thread, where we were SUPPOSED to be expressing our condolences to other officers, officers who presumably did nothing wrong other than doing their job...

That's what bothered me about this nonsequitur about the killing of a handcuffed prisoner... I certainly don't endorse such things, but it was disrespectful to bring it into this thread... it was almost like you wanted to derail this thread...

Again, stop making it personal.

I just get fed up with people constantly bashing the police, at every opportunity, in here... no, I'm not a cop, but I have over the years been friends with many of them, and I know most of them are good, caring men, doing a difficult, dangerous job...

I'm pretty sure I'd prefer their company to that of the posters always snarling about them... in fact, I'm always halfway convinced that the posters snarling about the cops are doing so because they've been caught breaking the law...

[mldardy]

****ing ghetto rats
:rolleyes: Not necessary

[ShiningStar]

Which was completely irrelevant to this thread, where we were SUPPOSED to be expressing our condolences to other officers, officers who presumably did nothing wrong other than doing their job...

That's what bothered me about this nonsequitur about the killing of a handcuffed prisoner... I certainly don't endorse such things, but it was disrespectful to bring it into this thread... it was almost like you wanted to derail this thread...



I just get fed up with people constantly bashing the police, at every opportunity, in here... no, I'm not a cop, but I have over the years been friends with many of them, and I know most of them are good, caring men, doing a difficult, dangerous job...

I'm pretty sure I'd prefer their company to that of the posters always snarling about them... in fact, I'm always halfway convinced that the posters snarling about the cops are doing so because they've been caught breaking the law...


And of course you didnt read everything and made things up as you go along. I did not bring it up, but it was something that was brought up. Lets start with that. I researched the matter and found something was wrong on both sides. As 5star also pointed out, a lot was going down in that situation, but there seems to be no denying that the person was killed execution style.

Regardless of how you want the thread to go or your perrsonal feelings, no one cares. Its a discussion, you dont like it, ignore what you dont like, insert what you want to and everyone respects your opinion as much as you do theirs.

But you want to go off on a tangent when a few posters was talking about a possible reason WHY the cops were being taunted. If you dont care for it, MOVE ON. I do.

[ShiningStar]

Got some personal experience in that area, do you??


No thank you very much, but than again i dont expect you, well lets just say Ill let it go because you have way to many other things wrong and need to work out, and ill respect that and not berate you.

[ninja]

... for that matter, a polite and respectful attitude has gotten me out of a couple-three tickets in the day...

And yes, on at least one occasion I ran into a cop who was quite abusive of his power... pulled his gun on me and my nephew, when we've just arrived home from work (in fact, we were still in the carport), because Michael had DARED to flip him off on the interstate for blocking traffic while talking on his cell phone (the cop was on his way home from a shift, in his personal vehicle)...

I calmly did everything that officer told me to, never uttered a disrespectful word, even as I was seething inside... instead, I got on the horn to his department, filed a formal complaint... the next time he showed up on my property, it was with his hat in his hand, and he was apologizing to me... he also tore up the tickets he wrote Michael, which I expected because the supervisor I talked to said he had no jurisdiction to ticket the kid for anything...



More geezing Silverbear stories (fairy tales). You are the baddest dude to have ever walked the face of the earth. Even cops beg for your forgiveness. Bad to the bone. Basketball star, ROTC protest star, barfights, arrow in the tongue, boss afraid to cross you, puttting cops in their place, etc. :lmao2:

[Jon88]

More geezing Silverbear stories (fairy tales). You are the baddest dude to have ever walked the face of the earth. Even cops beg for your forgiveness. Bad to the bone. Basketball star, ROTC protest star, barfights, arrow in the tongue, boss afraid to cross you, puttting cops in their place, etc. :lmao2:

:laugh2:

[silverbear]

More geezing Silverbear stories (fairy tales).

Not a fairy tale in the bunch, hoss... I never have felt the need to lie about who I am online, perhaps because I'm comfortable with who I am... I am also capable of laughing at myself, at my foibles...

You are the baddest dude to have ever walked the face of the earth. Even cops beg for your forgiveness.

That happened once, and the cop in question was desperately trying to avoid getting written up by his superiors... that doesn't make me bad, that just makes that cop a piss-poor excuse for a law enforcement officer...

Naturally, you miss the point of that story, which was not that I'm a baaad man... it was that I did NOT give the cop attitude while he was abusing his power, I followed his instructions exactly... then I went through channels, filed a formal complaint... which is how any reasonably intelligent citizen deals with abusive cops...

Bad to the bone. Basketball star

About the only time I was a "star" was in intramural leagues, and some adult recreational leagues in my 20s...

Very few 5-9 inch basketball players become stars... all I said was I had some game, which I did...

I guess it's difficult for you to conceive that I might possibly have been a pretty good athlete as a young man, even as I worked 15 years as a golf pro... again, I have no need to exaggerate the athletic ability I had...

ROTC protest star

That was a joke right from the start... and where exactly did I say I was a star?? I said I attended the protest in my uniform, to see who I could tick off... nobody got upset, though...

barfights

Yeah, I've been in a few bar fights... in case you haven't noticed, though, my stories about those were generally about how I got my butt kicked... again, more of that self-deprecating humor...

arrow in the tongue

A childhood story, again the absolute truth... what, you never had any freak accidents happen to you when you were a kid?? I didn't fall out of any trees and break my arm, I just got shot in the tongue with an arrow... and again, I mocked myself telling that story, saying something like "as usual, I was running my mouth"...

boss afraid to cross you

Uhhh, I never said he was "afraid to cross me", I just said he was a good enough judge of character to know he'd best not try yelling at me... I'm actually very fond of the man, he's been real good to me...

Like I said, I tell a lot of stories about my past, and all of them are quite true... I had the great good fortune to grow up an Army brat, which means I got to live in some really interesting places... and I was the son of a really fine athlete, so it's hardly unusual that I'd have some athletic abilities of my own...

The problem is, I beat the living crap out of myself purusing my athletic interests, now I'm a 56 year old man with bad knees, aching hips a lot of the time and a rotator cuff badly in need of surgical repair... I'm an orthopedic mess, and about the only sport I have left that I can participate in is bowling... if and when I ever get that shoulder fixed, I hope to again be able to play golf...

And before you go mocking my claims of being a golf pro, ask Vintage or some others in here if I haven't improved their games, just by talking to them online... I was in fact a very good golf pro, with a reputation in the Tri State section as a top teacher of juniors...

I'm really sorry if you don't have the talents I do, and if you're jealous of me... I guess I'm just an alpha male, and you're not... :D

[Bob Sacamano]

silverbear is a mofo, shut your mouth

[the kid 05]

silverbear is a mofo, shut your mouth

I'm scared of silverbear, everytime i see his name it makes me think of a cross between a silverback gorrilla and a big ol nasty grizzly bear

[ninja]

You are my hero Silverbear. Please post another anti-surge article.:lmao2: And post another picture of you standing outside looking baaad. You remember the one. Just keep the stories coming.

[silverbear]

silverbear is a mofo, shut your mouth

At the very least, I'm a legend in my own mind... :D

[silverbear]

I'm scared of silverbear, everytime i see his name it makes me think of a cross between a silverback gorrilla and a big ol nasty grizzly bear

Aw, I'm a big ol' teddy bear... how anybody could be scared of me, I'll never know...

[ShiningStar]

and still doesnt have a problem with thread being hi jacked now. So much for those officers.

[silverbear]

You are my hero Silverbear.

I really am sorry that you feel so desperately inferior to me... it can't be helped, you really ARE inferior to me...


And post another picture of you standing outside looking baaad. You remember the one.

That wasn't me "looking baaad", that was me staring back directly into a very bright August sun... IOW, that was me SQUINTING... and in the other pic on that thread, I'm petting my dog... wow, that's certainly an effort to intimidate folks...

I don't seem to see a picture of you in that thread, one wonders why you're afraid to go public...

Face it, you hate my politics, and you hate me because you can't successfully argue politics with me... but hey, I've been leaving y'all alone in the Politics Zone, so why are you still whining??

[Achozen]

****ing ghetto rats
. Tell us how you really feel...