Feinstein: Don't Spoil Our Desert With Solar Panels

[Doomsday101]

WASHINGTON -- California's Mojave Desert may seem ideally suited for solar energy production, but concern over what several proposed projects might do to the aesthetics of the region and its tortoise population is setting up a potential clash between conservationists and companies seeking to develop renewable energy.

Nineteen companies have submitted applications to build solar or wind facilities on a parcel of 500,000 desert acres, but Sen. Dianne Feinstein said Friday such development would violate the spirit of what conservationists had intended when they donated much of the land to the public.

Feinstein said Friday she intends to push legislation that would turn the land into a national monument, which would allow for existing uses to continue while preventing future development.

The Wildlands Conservancy orchestrated the government's purchase of the land between 1999-2004. It negotiated a discount sale from the real estate arm of the former Santa Fe and Southern Pacific Railroad and then contributed $40 million to help pay for the purchase. David Myers, the conservancy's executive director, said the solar projects would do great harm to the region's desert tortoise population.

"It would destroy the entire Mojave Desert ecosystem," said David Myers, executive director of The Wildlands Conservancy.

Feinstein said the lands in question were donated or purchased with the intent that they would be protected forever. But the Bureau of Land Management considers the land now open to all types of development, except mining. That policy led the state to consider large swaths of the land for future renewable energy production.

"This is unacceptable," Feinstein said in a letter to Interior Secretary Ken Salazar. "I urge you to direct the BLM to suspend any further consideration of leases to develop former railroad lands for renewable energy or for any other purpose."

In a speech last year, Republican Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger complained about environmental concerns slowing down the approval of solar plants in California.

"If we cannot put solar power plants in the Mojave desert, I don't know where the hell we can put it," Schwarzenegger said at Yale University.

But Karen Douglas, chairman of the California Energy Commission, said Feinstein's proposal could be a "win-win" for energy and conservation. The governor's office said Douglas was speaking on the administration's behalf.

"The opportunity we see in the Feinstein bill is to jump-start our own efforts to find the best sites for development and to come up with a broader conservation plan that mitigates the impact of the development," Douglas said.

Douglas said that if the national monument lines were drawn without consideration of renewable energy then a conflict was likely, but it's early enough in the planning process that she's confident the state will be able to get more solar and wind projects up and running without hurting the environment.

"We think we can do both," Douglas said. "We think this is an opportunity to accelerate both."

Greg Miller of the Bureau of Land Management said there are 14 solar energy and five wind energy projects that have submitted applications seeking to develop on what's referred to as the former Catellus lands. None of the projects are close to being approved, he said.

The land lies in the southeast corner of California, between the existing Mojave National Preserve on the north and Joshua Tree National Park on the south.

"They all have to go through a rigorous environmental analysis now," Miller said. "It will be at best close to two years out before we get some of these grants approved."

Feinstein's spokesman, Gil Duran, said the senator looks forward to working with the governor and the Interior Department on the issue.

"There's plenty of room in America's deserts for the bold expansion of renewable energy projects," Duran said.

[CowboyWay]

Unbelievable.

Does anyone know how much land is out there? To say solar panels will "Destroy the entire Mojave Desert", is asinine.

We need to build as many panels and wind towers as we can. You'd have to be a hardcore environmentalist to worry about killing a horny toad or a sage bush.

Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

[ShiningStar]

Unbelievable.

Does anyone know how much land is out there? To say solar panels will "Destroy the entire Mojave Desert", is asinine.

We need to build as many panels and wind towers as we can. You'd have to be a hardcore environmentalist to worry about killing a horny toad or a sage bush.

Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.


So you dont mind if the environmentalists dont get their way, but you are okay with eco friendly engery regardless of the cost?

[jrumann59]

"We need to go green, we need to go green, just don't charge extra and don't put a windmill or solar panel near my yard." typical leftists.

[jrumann59]

Unbelievable.

Does anyone know how much land is out there? To say solar panels will "Destroy the entire Mojave Desert", is asinine.

We need to build as many panels and wind towers as we can. You'd have to be a hardcore environmentalist to worry about killing a horny toad or a sage bush.

Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

Do you realize that solar panels and wind turbines are so ineffecient that they would have to fill the mojave with one or the the other to replace one nuclear power plant.

[hairic]

Do you realize that solar panels and wind turbines are so ineffecient that they would have to fill the mojave with one or the the other to replace one nuclear power plant.

Google solar thermal / concentrated solar. Get a big enough plant in a desert (best desert = Sahara), and you could power an entire continent.

Random link: http://ecoworldly.com/2008/04/12/mega-solar-the-worlds-13-biggest-solar-thermal-energy-projects/

[ologan]

Unbelievable.

Does anyone know how much land is out there? To say solar panels will "Destroy the entire Mojave Desert", is asinine.

We need to build as many panels and wind towers as we can. You'd have to be a hardcore environmentalist to worry about killing a horny toad or a sage bush.

Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

When was the last time you,or anybody reading this,saw a 'Horny Toad'??
They were thick as fleas on a hounds back when I was a kid.

[BigDinAZ]

I'm in the renewable energy field, and trust me... you can never make the environmentalist happy. They want clean energy, but then they say your using to much land. It's a complete oxy moron.

I'm having issues on a project my company is bidding for a 1 Mw Solar field on the California, Arizona, Nevada border.

[jrumann59]

Google solar thermal / concentrated solar. Get a big enough plant in a desert (best desert = Sahara), and you could power an entire continent.

Random link: http://ecoworldly.com/2008/04/12/mega-solar-the-worlds-13-biggest-solar-thermal-energy-projects/

Read your little eco friendly propaganda and non of the top 13 are close to enough or will ever be close enough to power NYC 10500 MW. Lets break it down number 2 on the list is a 4500 acre solar panel farm that will possibly generate 850MW (850000000 watts) which breaks down to .188888MW per acre but in actuality that is only true during times of peak sun which for arguments sake is 12 hours the efficiency of the solar panel is only 50% on sunny days and more then likely less considering sunny cloudless days are not an every day occurance so I have hard time believing that this method of power generation is feasible to power one city let alone one continent. While solar and wind are great ways to compliment more efficient forms of energy production it cannot compete with nuclear per acre.

[adamc91115]

Read your little eco friendly propaganda and non of the top 13 are close to enough or will ever be close enough to power NYC 10500 MW. Lets break it down number 2 on the list is a 4500 acre solar panel farm that will possibly generate 850MW (850000000 watts) which breaks down to .188888MW per acre but in actuality that is only true during times of peak sun which for arguments sake is 12 hours the efficiency of the solar panel is only 50% on sunny days and more then likely less considering sunny cloudless days are not an every day occurance so I have hard time believing that this method of power generation is feasible to power one city let alone one continent. While solar and wind are great ways to compliment more efficient forms of energy production it cannot compete with nuclear per acre.

I agree with what you're saying... But that was one helluva run-on sentence :laugh2:.


We shouldn't even be talking about building solar panel "farms" yet. They will most likely be obsolete in a few years. We need to wait until these things become more efficient... IF they even become more efficient.

[CowboyFan74]

Unbelievable.

Does anyone know how much land is out there? To say solar panels will "Destroy the entire Mojave Desert", is asinine.

We need to build as many panels and wind towers as we can. You'd have to be a hardcore environmentalist to worry about killing a horny toad or a sage bush.

Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

Don't forget about all those birds that fly into the windmill blades at night:laugh2:

[hairic]

Read your little eco friendly propaganda and non of the top 13 are close to enough or will ever be close enough to power NYC 10500 MW. Lets break it down number 2 on the list is a 4500 acre solar panel farm that will possibly generate 850MW (850000000 watts) which breaks down to .188888MW per acre but in actuality that is only true during times of peak sun which for arguments sake is 12 hours the efficiency of the solar panel is only 50% on sunny days and more then likely less considering sunny cloudless days are not an every day occurance so I have hard time believing that this method of power generation is feasible to power one city let alone one continent. While solar and wind are great ways to compliment more efficient forms of energy production it cannot compete with nuclear per acre.

That was just a random article that had nothing to do with the claim of powering a continent (you'd need hundreds of square miles of desert covered, and you'd start with powering Africa). The link was just to illustrate the efficiency of the tech in rebuttal to your claim that you'd have to cover tens of thousands of square miles with solar / wind farms to compete with one nuclear plant. And in response you switched to a claim of per acre, they can't compete. Obviously, when the formula is e=mc2, nothing can compete.

I also told you to google solar thermal / concentrated solar, which you didn't. Photovoltaic cells (solar panels) aren't involved in solar thermal, reflective material and water is all that's needed, and it provides power into the night with stored heat as well.

[Kangaroo]

When was the last time you,or anybody reading this,saw a 'Horny Toad'??
They were thick as fleas on a hounds back when I was a kid.

That is do to fire ants not anything we have done the Horny toad ate native ants as fire ants invade the US through foreign agriculture and immigrants coming into the US. The Horny Toad will not eat the Fire Ants so there food supply is gone and there is no way to save them

[jrumann59]

That was just a random article that had nothing to do with the claim of powering a continent (you'd need hundreds of square miles of desert covered, and you'd start with powering Africa). The link was just to illustrate the efficiency of the tech in rebuttal to your claim that you'd have to cover tens of thousands of square miles with solar / wind farms to compete with one nuclear plant. And in response you switched to a claim of per acre, they can't compete. Obviously, when the formula is e=mc2, nothing can compete.

I also told you to google solar thermal / concentrated solar, which you didn't. Photovoltaic cells (solar panels) aren't involved in solar thermal, reflective material and water is all that's needed, and it provides power into the night with stored heat as well.

The question i have is how can it be efficient when it only works when the sun is out. Until they figure a way to store and regulate the power output reliably it is only a complimentary form of energy. Miles, acres whats the difference really you can build one nuclear power plant that takes up 10 acres and it will out power anything. Point being while it would be nice to have 100% completely renewable energy that costs very little to produce it isn't feasible. For example I live in MD which has probably seen some of the highest energy cost rises in the last 18 months, my electric company sends me a bill and asks me every month if I want to pay $10 more a month I can get 50% of my power from wind and for another $10 I can get all my electricity from wind. While $20 month is nothing really it is when you have $400+ utility bill a month when it used to be in the sub $200's. So why should I pay more to be more eco friendly when in the long run it MAY not benefit me.

[Kangaroo]

The question i have is how can it be efficient when it only works when the sun is out. Until they figure a way to store and regulate the power output reliably it is only a complimentary form of energy. Miles, acres whats the difference really you can build one nuclear power plant that takes up 10 acres and it will out power anything. Point being while it would be nice to have 100% completely renewable energy that costs very little to produce it isn't feasible. For example I live in MD which has probably seen some of the highest energy cost rises in the last 18 months, my electric company sends me a bill and asks me every month if I want to pay $10 more a month I can get 50% of my power from wind and for another $10 I can get all my electricity from wind. While $20 month is nothing really it is when you have $400+ utility bill a month when it used to be in the sub $200's. So why should I pay more to be more eco friendly when in the long run it MAY not benefit me.

Until we can produce chlorophyll and make it work in solar panels like plants it is going to be a hard road to travel. The best method we have for storing solar is batteries and that works better on smaller scales like homes.

Right know renewable energy is better used as a compliment to our normal energy and currently it is still way over priced

[CowboyWay]

Do you realize that solar panels and wind turbines are so ineffecient that they would have to fill the
mojave with one or the the other to replace one nuclear power plant.

I'm not anti Nuclear. Remember what they say about people who ASSume.

I love the "inefficient" argument though. Makes me laugh.

The Model T was pretty inefficient too, but as people buy and produce cars, they got better and better and better.

Eco Freindly energy will be the same.

There is plenty wind and solar stuff out there that would either cut your electric bill in half, cut it out entirely, or to let you get a check from the power companies every month.

How much you do is up to you.

[CowboyWay]

"We need to go green, we need to go green, just don't charge extra and don't put a windmill or solar panel near my yard." typical leftists.

Hogwash.

Anyone who is against a solar panel because it is destroying the environment might be second cousins to the unibomber.

Hardy "typical"

But you seem to like to deal in generalizations, so please continue.

[Hoofbite]

I'm not anti Nuclear. Remember what they say about people who ASSume.

I love the "inefficient" argument though. Makes me laugh.

The Model T was pretty inefficient too, but as people buy and produce cars, they got better and better and better.

Eco Freindly energy will be the same.

There is plenty wind and solar stuff out there that would either cut your electric bill in half, cut it out entirely, or to let you get a check from the power companies every month.

How much you do is up to you.

That gets me too. "It doesn't work right now, SCREW IT!"

Nuclear was once on the drawing board. Good thing the people working on it didn't have the same mentality.

[jcollins28]

Do you realize that solar panels and wind turbines are so ineffecient that they would have to fill the mojave with one or the the other to replace one nuclear power plant.

Really? Where did you get your info? I'm working on a project right now where they may be using air compressor's to blow air onto those wind mills to turn them. The trade off would be more then enough to power the compressor and still make energy.

[ScipioCowboy]

Nuclear power is the future. Accept it.

[Doomsday101]

Nuclear power is the future. Accept it.

Unless something else comes about you are right. I think things like wind and solar are good supplements but they are not going to be able to power a nation like the US. Nuclear will

[trickblue]

I think we should send a space mission to the Sun (at night of course so they don't burn up) and place solar panels on the sun and cable it back to the earth...

[ShiningStar]

I think we should send a space mission to the Sun (at night of course so they don't burn up) and place solar panels on the sun and cable it back to the earth...


I like that thinking. Thats called stimulus, we'd probably have to wrangle up some cheap labor, a old shuttle, gotta save money here, and a really long cable to bring it back and not get in the way of some of those useless planets floating out there.

[CowboyWay]

That gets me too. "It doesn't work right now, SCREW IT!"

Nuclear was once on the drawing board. Good thing the people working on it didn't have the same mentality.

Exactly. There is alot of this type of mentality going around. Especially when it comes to eco freindly fuels.

Its like people expect a magic wand to instantly make the most efficient solution in the universe.

Did it work that way when we went to the moon? Does it work that way in medical science? Appliances? airplanes? The list goes on forever.

Of course not. Its trial and error. Improving year after year by making advancements, to get where you are today.

Silly people. No vision.

[CowboyWay]

Really? Where did you get your info? I'm working on a project right now where they may be using air compressor's to blow air onto those wind mills to turn them. The trade off would be more then enough to power the compressor and still make energy.

That sounds like an awesome project. Be sure to post more about it.

Reminds me of a PBS special I saw a few months back about a car. Totally powered by an air compressor moving the pistons instead of fuel. The engine also acted as a source to keep the compressor full. It was a never ending cycle. It was amazing.

Oh but wait........we aren't advanced enough to do those things.

[trickblue]

That sounds like an awesome project. Be sure to post more about it.

Reminds me of a PBS special I saw a few months back about a car. Totally powered by an air compressor moving the pistons instead of fuel. The engine also acted as a source to keep the compressor full. It was a never ending cycle. It was amazing.

Oh but wait........we aren't advanced enough to do those things.

They had a series on Discovery called Future Car... it had the air powered car and several other really cool ones...

[Doomsday101]

They had a series on Discovery called Future Car... it had the air powered car and several other really cool ones...

Please tell me these are not the cars you fold up and put in your back pocket after you get out. Most of the green cars I have seen are these small light weight cars which in city driving may be fine but long distance or bigger vehicles that haul goods such as 18 wheelers could be a different story. I also think Americans love of the sports cars is not going to die any time soon.

[trickblue]

Please tell me these are not the cars you fold up and put in your back pocket after you get out. Most of the green cars I have seen are these small light weight cars which in city driving may be fine but long distance or bigger vehicles that haul goods such as 18 wheelers could be a different story. I also think Americans love of the sports cars is not going to die any time soon.

Not at all... some were very high performance...

Don't remember any folding cars at all...

[Doomsday101]

Not at all... some were very high performance...

Don't remember any folding cars at all...

Cool I hope I get a chance to see the show you saw if it is re-aired.

[CowboysFan02]

At this point solar is still not effeicent enough, but if cities allow power companies to install panels on warehouse roofs and other flat roofs, they might do enough to help augment our current power generators. And if they give the property owners a rebate or some other incentive to allow them install the panels it could be mutually benificial.

[ologan]

That is do to fire ants not anything we have done the Horny toad ate native ants as fire ants invade the US through foreign agriculture and immigrants coming into the US. The Horny Toad will not eat the Fire Ants so there food supply is gone and there is no way to save them

I understand completely what you are saying. I was just "waxing nostalgic" for the horny toad,as they are a reminder to me of an innocent time long gone.

[DFWJC]

You could cover all of the open land in our country with solar panels, and given current technolgy it would only contribute about 15% of total needed power. People need to get perspective. It is a tiny part of the solution.
Having said that, Feinstein is still the ultimate hypocrite.

[trickblue]

I understand completely what you are saying. I was just "waxing nostalgic" for the horny toad,as they are a reminder to me of an innocent time long gone.

I'm sure you've been referred to as a Horny Toad before... ;)

[ABQCOWBOY]

You could cover all of the open land in our country with solar panels, and given current technolgy it would only contribute about 15% of total needed power. People need to get perspective. It is a tiny part of the solution.
Having said that, Feinstein is still the ultimate hypocrite.

Wind Mills DFWJC. The answer is Wind Mills!

Comments on then Candidate Obama and his proposed Energy plan for America, as posted by ABQ on 9/11/08

"My guess is none. However, he will have plans, firmly in place for three new reactors in 2009. Of course, I doubt they will get off the ground so in 2010, they will have an aggressive catch up plan to have four break ground and follow up with another three in 2011. This will continue up to 2012, at which time, reality will set in and the whole "New Nuclear Powered Energy Initiative" will be revised and eventually replaced with an aggressive new plan to have 500 Wind Mills up and running, somewhere in Kansas by the end of Fiscal 2012.

That's politices."

[ologan]

I'm sure you've been referred to as a Horny Toad before... ;)

:lmao2:

Actually,horny OLD toad to you,whippersnapper!

[jrumann59]

I never said toss them, I just said they are inefficient and only usuable about 50% of the time. I am glad they have an air compressor that will spin a wind turbine on low wind days that there just show the reliability issue in these eco friendly plans. Now all they need to do is come up with a solar lamp that plugs into a solar panel so it can supply power 24/7. Wind and solar are nothing more than augmentary solutions right now. While these are being developed further we should also be drilling oil from our own country, while it won't make a big dent it will be a dent none the less.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080520021116AAM0ZEM
http://www.scitizen.com/screens/blogPage/viewBlog/sw_viewBlog.php?idTheme=14&idContribution=1487
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Tilting+we+will+Go%3F+Windmills+are+not+an+energy+ policy.-a0182274735

[STAR GAZER]

People need to embrace solar power for applications at home. Having plants that develop it is fine to a degree. But wouldn't it be wiser to cut out the middleman for the bulk of our energy needs. They would just over charge us for what we could be developing independently.

Supplement their supply with our own and we kill two birds with one stone.

[ScipioCowboy]

I think we should send a space mission to the Sun (at night of course so they don't burn up) and place solar panels on the sun and cable it back to the earth...

There's an aggie joke in there somewhere. I'm certain of it.:)

[Kangaroo]

People need to embrace solar power for applications at home. Having plants that develop it is fine to a degree. But wouldn't it be wiser to cut out the middleman for the bulk of our energy needs. They would just over charge us for what we could be developing independently.

Supplement their supply with our own and we kill two birds with one stone.

Except the return investment is not worth the cost of the solar panels at this time. To currently retro fit your house is going to cost a minimum of 10k just for the solar panels if you are lucky plus electrician labor cost and wiring is not cheap. I looked out of curiosity on some web sites and the cost to benefit is to high and I am not some rich Hollywood nut job that has 10k to waste

[MetalHead]

Unbelievable.

Does anyone know how much land is out there? To say solar panels will "Destroy the entire Mojave Desert", is asinine.

We need to build as many panels and wind towers as we can. You'd have to be a hardcore environmentalist to worry about killing a horny toad or a sage bush.

Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

I know you and I disagree many times,but this post reveals to me that you are a reasonable individual.
Truth is,the environazis have manipulated data and are in no way interested in a plausible solution.
None whatsoever.Not in the agenda of any energy producing source.