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TheCount
03-23-2009, 01:16 PM
JERUSALEM – Israeli soldiers wore T-shirts with a pregnant woman in the cross-hairs of a rifle and the slogan "1 Shot 2 Kills," adding to a growing furor in the country over allegations of misconduct by troops during the Gaza war.

"The smaller they are, the harder it is," says another shirt showing a child in a gun sight. Soldiers wore the shirts to mark the end of basic training and other military courses. They were first reported by the Haaretz daily.

The military condemned the soldiers involved, and it was not immediately clear how many wore the shirts. They were not manufactured or sanctioned by the military, and it was not clear how widely they were distributed.

The shirts "are not in accordance with IDF values and are simply tasteless," the military said in a statement. "This type of humor is unbecoming and should be condemned." The army said it would not tolerate such behavior and would take disciplinary action against the soldiers involved.

Haaretz showed pictures of five shirts and said they were made at the unit level — indicating that they were made for small numbers of troops, perhaps several dozen, at a time. It said they were worn by an unknown number of enlisted men in different units. The Tel Aviv factory that made many of the shirts, Adiv, refused to comment.

Few people in the Palestinian territories appeared to be aware of the T-shirts. In Gaza, Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum said it "reflects the brutal mentality among the Zionist soldiers and the Zionist society."

Hamas-controlled media consistently glorify attacks on Israelis, and cartoons in Palestinian newspapers frequently use classic anti-Semitic images of Jews as hook-nosed, black-hatted, wily and unscrupulous characters out to rule the world and oppress Arabs.

The Islamic militant group's TV station ran a children's show in which a Mickey Mouse knockoff fulminated about Israel before it was killed by a purported Israeli agent. Hamas also mocked Israeli suffering over its attacks, staging a play about its capture of an Israeli soldier in which it makes fun of the serviceman crying for his mother and father.

Israel's military has come under increasing scrutiny after unidentified soldiers alleged that some troops opened fire hastily and killed Palestinian civilians during the Gaza war several months ago, including children, possibly because they believed they would not be held accountable under relaxed open-fire regulations. The military has ordered a criminal inquiry into soldiers accounts published in a military institute's newsletter.

On Monday, the military chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi, defended his troops.

"I tell you that this is a moral and ideological army. I have no doubt that exceptional events will be dealt with," Ashkenazi told new recruits. Gaza "is a complex atmosphere that includes civilians, and we took every measure possible to reduce harm to the innocent."

The three-week Gaza offensive, launched to end years of rocket fire at Israeli towns, ended on Jan. 18. According to Palestinian officials, around 1,400 Palestinians were killed, most of them civilians. Thirteen Israelis died, three of them civilians.

Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups fire rockets from heavily populated areas, and Israel says Hamas is to blame for the civilian deaths because it leaves the military no choice but to attack them there.

U.N. human rights experts said Monday that Israeli soldiers used an 11-year-old Palestinian boy as a human shield during the Gaza offensive. The military ordered the boy on Jan. 15 to walk in front of soldiers being fired on in a Gaza neighborhood and enter buildings before them, said Radhika Coomaraswamy, the U.N. secretary-general's envoy for protecting children in armed conflict.

Israeli army spokesman Capt. Elie Isaacson denied that the military used human shields, saying "morals and high ethical standards are paramount" in the army.

Uzi Dayan, a former Israeli deputy chief of staff, said he was "shocked but not surprised" by the T-shirts.

"I spent many years in the army and I know that if you don't pay attention all the time, these things can happen. These are very young people in a combat situation, so you need to have a finger on the pulse," he said.

American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan have also come under criticism for heavy civilian casualties in those wars.

The Israeli military misconduct allegations have struck a nerve in Israel where the military is expected to observe a higher moral standard.

"We have to face this challenge, not because we're the most moral army in the world, but because there are democratic norms and laws of war that we have to keep, and because we want to win and continue living in a democratic society," Dayan said.

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Long read, I know. I guess this is what happens when you require people to serve in the army, and a lot of them haven't acquired the maturity level to grasp the situation, they are just doing it because they have to.

vta
03-23-2009, 01:28 PM
"Arab leaders fiery sermons talk seriously about killing Jews."

Google that and see what comes up.

I don't have much compassion for the sensibilities of the people offended at these T-Shirts.

Dallas
03-23-2009, 01:34 PM
"Arab leaders fiery sermons talk seriously about killing Jews."

Google that and see what comes up.

I don't have much compassion for the sensibilities of the people offended at these T-Shirts.

Agreed. I could care less about those offended by the shirts.

You have soldiers wearing some joke of a t-shirt and that is supposed to somehow be more offensive than the crap these Arab leaders spew?

Please. :rolleyes:

zrinkill
03-23-2009, 01:36 PM
No picture?

Seems like that would be easy to fake.

JBond
03-23-2009, 01:37 PM
Probably not the greatest PR move by the IDF.

daschoo
03-23-2009, 01:37 PM
would an arab wearing a t-shirt mocking killing an american pregnant woman be deemed offensive or in poor taste? just wondering :rolleyes:

for the record i would say it would be before i'm accused of america bashing

ethiostar
03-23-2009, 01:38 PM
Probably not the greatest PR move by the IDF.

Agreed.

JBond
03-23-2009, 01:39 PM
Hey Count, do you have the link? Thanks.

hairic
03-23-2009, 01:41 PM
No picture?

Seems like that would be easy to fake.

From my browsing history:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Israeli-Army-T-Shirts-Mock-Killing-Palestinian-Women-And-Children-During-Gaza-Offensive/Article/200903315245946?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_2

zrinkill
03-23-2009, 01:44 PM
From my browsing history:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Israeli-Army-T-Shirts-Mock-Killing-Palestinian-Women-And-Children-During-Gaza-Offensive/Article/200903315245946?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_2

Those shirts look very "American" ...... esp the one in English.

I am very doubtful of this.

vta
03-23-2009, 01:47 PM
would an arab wearing a t-shirt mocking killing an american pregnant woman be deemed offensive or in poor taste? just wondering :rolleyes:

for the record i would say it would be before i'm accused of america bashing

No, it would be deemed par for the course and typical behavior of extremists...

ethiostar
03-23-2009, 01:47 PM
Those shirts look very "American" ...... esp the one in English.

I am very doubtful of this.

What is it that makes them look 'American'? Just out of curiosity.

hairic
03-23-2009, 01:48 PM
Those shirts look very "American" ...... esp the one in English.

I am very doubtful of this.

Don't look at the pictures, read the article.

The IDF has already confirmed that they're real:

A spokesman for the Israeli Defence Forces (http://indepth.news.sky.com/InDepth/topic/Israeli_Defence_Forces) (IDF) told Sky News Online, the t-shirts were printed on the private initiative of the soldiers and their designs "are not in accordance with IDF values and are simply tasteless. This type of humour is unacceptable and should be condemned".

TheCount
03-23-2009, 01:48 PM
Hey Count, do you have the link? Thanks.

Sure thing: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090323/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_army

Should have included it.

"Arab leaders fiery sermons talk seriously about killing Jews."

Google that and see what comes up.

I don't have much compassion for the sensibilities of the people offended at these T-Shirts.

I don't think the point is to compare the two, really. Like they said, it's not about the Israeli having the most moral army in the world.

I also bolded the part where it says most people didn't seem to even be aware of the shirt, so for all we know, it could be just a small group of idiots.

JBond
03-23-2009, 01:48 PM
Agreed.


At least the IDF denounced them. A certain portion of the population wherever you go are idiots. That applies to IDF as well.

zrinkill
03-23-2009, 01:51 PM
What is it that makes them look 'American'? Just out of curiosity.

American sense of humor.

Like the "Kill'em all and let God sort them out" saying.

daschoo
03-23-2009, 01:52 PM
No, it would be deemed par for the course and typical behavior of extremists...

good to see you keeping an open mind and not branding an entire race as one and the same. fail to see anything acceptable about joking about shooting a baby in the womb, surely at the very least its as has been said on here a bad pr move?

zrinkill
03-23-2009, 01:53 PM
Don't look at the pictures, read the article.

The IDF has already confirmed that they're real:

So how many "soldiers" were involved?

The pic you linked looked like an add from one of those Online Joke t-shirt companies.

ethiostar
03-23-2009, 01:53 PM
At least the IDF denounced them. A certain portion of the population wherever you go are idiots. That applies to IDF as well.

Yep, there are always those who give their group a bad name, whether that group is defined based on nationality, ethnicity/race, religion, gender, etc....

daschoo
03-23-2009, 01:54 PM
American sense of humor.

Like the "Kill'em all and let God sort them out" saying.

thing is though with the americanisation of the world ie hollywood movies, american tv shows, brands like coca-cola, macdonalds etc you find things like that popping up everywhere

zrinkill
03-23-2009, 01:54 PM
No, it would be deemed par for the course and typical behavior of extremists...

good to see you keeping an open mind and not branding an entire race as one and the same. fail to see anything acceptable about joking about shooting a baby in the womb, surely at the very least its as has been said on here a bad pr move?

He said extremist ..... he did not leave any out on either side.

vta
03-23-2009, 01:54 PM
I don't think the point is to compare the two, really. Like they said, it's not about the Israeli having the most moral army in the world.

I also bolded the part where it says most people didn't seem to even be aware of the shirt, so for all we know, it could be just a small group of idiots.

I'm sure it is, as the IDF isn't printing and passing out these sort of things.
It's kind of like that American soldier who sang a song in Iraq (Durka Durka, Jihad), no one would have even known if a stink hadn't been made.

ethiostar
03-23-2009, 01:55 PM
American sense of humor.

Like the "Kill'em all and let God sort them out" saying.

Gotcha

vta
03-23-2009, 01:55 PM
He said extremist ..... he did not leave any out on either side.

:laugh2:

WarC
03-23-2009, 01:55 PM
"Arab leaders fiery sermons talk seriously about killing Jews."

Google that and see what comes up.

I don't have much compassion for the sensibilities of the people offended at these T-Shirts.

Likewise.

Theres a childrens show in Palestine that features a character bedecked in a suicide bombers belt carrying an AK47.

The animosity there goes both ways.

daschoo
03-23-2009, 01:55 PM
At least the IDF denounced them. A certain portion of the population wherever you go are idiots. That applies to IDF as well.

absolutely spot on

ZeroClub
03-23-2009, 01:57 PM
At least the IDF denounced them. A certain portion of the population wherever you go are idiots. That applies to IDF as well.

Absolutely true.

JBond
03-23-2009, 02:00 PM
So how many "soldiers" were involved?

The pic you linked looked like an add from one of those Online Joke t-shirt companies.

It does look like a tee shirt ad.


http://images3.cafepress.com/product/303150723v16_240x240_Front_Color-White.jpg

http://images.cafepress.com/jitcrunch.aspx?bG9hZD1ibGFuayxibGFuazoyM19GX2MxLmp wZ3xsb2FkPUwwLGh0dHA6Ly9pbWFnZXM4LmNhZmVwcmVzcy5jb 20vaW1hZ2UvMzAwMjUyNzhfNDAweDQwMC5wbmd8fHNjYWxlPUw wLDE2MCwxNjAsV2hpdGV8Y29tcG9zZT1ibGFuayxMMCxBZGQsM TYzLDExNnxjcD1yZXN1bHQsYmxhbmt8c2NhbGU9cmVzdWx0LDA sNDgwLFdoaXRlfGNvbXByZXNzaW9uPTk1fA==

daschoo
03-23-2009, 02:03 PM
He said extremist ..... he did not leave any out on either side.

my bad, i misread his quote as him meaning all arabs were extremists. still think the t-shirts are inexcusable though. jbond has more or less summed up this topic i would say with the minority of idiots in any population statement

hairic
03-23-2009, 02:05 PM
So how many "soldiers" were involved?

The pic you linked looked like an add from one of those Online Joke t-shirt companies.

Straight from the Israeli newspaper, Harretz.

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072466.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1073234.html

That's all the info there is for now.

Ren
03-23-2009, 03:15 PM
good to see you keeping an open mind and not branding an entire race as one and the same. fail to see anything acceptable about joking about shooting a baby in the womb, surely at the very least its as has been said on here a bad pr move?

don't be stupid, he said extremists if anyone is stereotyping here it's you with your assumption that he meant an entire race :rolleyes:

daschoo
03-23-2009, 03:20 PM
don't be stupid, he said extremists if anyone is stereotyping here it's you with your assumption that he meant an entire race :rolleyes:

check the post two before yours bud :)

WarC
03-23-2009, 04:15 PM
What I wanna know is, where can I order some of these puppies?

You gotta admit these are bad*** shirts...

Cajuncowboy
03-23-2009, 04:20 PM
This kind of thing irritates the heck out of me. I can understand showing someone who had a bomb belt tied to them depicting a terrorist but a pregnant woman is beyond the pale. Disgusting actually.

Vintage
03-23-2009, 04:23 PM
This kind of thing irritates the heck out of me. I can understand showing someone who had a bomb belt tied to them depicting a terrorist but a pregnant woman is beyond the pale. Disgusting actually.


Congrats.

You are consistent. I was wondering how many would be pro-life and find the pregnant woman shirt funny.

You didn't.

Kudos.

Cajuncowboy
03-23-2009, 04:27 PM
Congrats.

You are consistent. I was wondering how many would be pro-life and find the pregnant woman shirt funny.

You didn't.

Kudos.

I don't find any of it funny if it has an innocent as the target. This is way to serious to making fun of it IMO.

I find this funny as heck though. :D

https://billstclair.com/blog/Osama_bin_Laden_target.jpg

Vintage
03-23-2009, 04:34 PM
I don't find any of it funny if it has an innocent as the target. This is way to serious to making fun of it IMO.

I find this funny as heck though. :D

https://billstclair.com/blog/Osama_bin_Laden_target.jpg


LOL at the OBL pic.


My personal opinion is... I'd hate to see our military wearing something like that. Its bad for PR.

By joining a military, you are agreeing to abide by their rules. So if they outlaw it, fine.

But if they want to wear those shirts off duty - whatever. Its their choice.

Cajuncowboy
03-23-2009, 04:46 PM
LOL at the OBL pic.


My personal opinion is... I'd hate to see our military wearing something like that. Its bad for PR.

By joining a military, you are agreeing to abide by their rules. So if they outlaw it, fine.

But if they want to wear those shirts off duty - whatever. Its their choice.

Actually, I would have a problem with it even off duty. I mean, it still reflects on your country of which you are a representing. If you get caught doing something illegal and you are off duty, you could be court marshaled, not that this would be that type of offense.

TheCount
03-23-2009, 05:11 PM
Actually, I would have a problem with it even off duty. I mean, it still reflects on your country of which you are a representing. If you get caught doing something illegal and you are off duty, you could be court marshaled, not that this would be that type of offense.

I tend to agree. If you're in the military as a profession, it's still a profession. Respect what you do.

People get fired from their jobs for having Facebook or my-space messages that their companies don't like these days.

WarC
03-23-2009, 05:13 PM
The thing is, these are attempts at humor, they are not representative of the true intention.

It's not like a serial killer goes around with a joke t-shirt like that.

It's not like the Nazis made joke t-shirts about gassing Jews.

You get what I mean? The very fact that these t-shirts were made points to the idea that they were garbage humor, relevent to their occupations and its hazards and dilemmas but not representative of true intention or aim, for the vast majority.

jwhardin
03-23-2009, 07:27 PM
I wear a t shirt with my unit patch on it from Vietnam, that says "Death was our business and business was good". I hope I don't offend anyone. Not Really! But bragging about women or babies is not really very intelligent.