Waterboarding used 266 times on 2 suspects

[ConcordCowboy]

Waterboarding used 266 times on 2 suspects

C.I.A. employed near-drowning technique against Al Qaeda prisoners

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/090420-Mohammed-Zubaydah-hmed-225a.h2.jpg
Key terrorism prisoners Abu Zubaydah, left, and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, right, were waterboarded at least 266 times.


C.I.A. interrogators used waterboarding, the near-drowning technique that top Obama administration officials have described as illegal torture, 266 times on two key prisoners from Al Qaeda, far more than had been previously reported.

The C.I.A. officers used waterboarding at least 83 times in August 2002 against Abu Zubaydah, according to a 2005 Justice Department legal memorandum. Abu Zubaydah has been described as a Qaeda operative.

A former C.I.A. officer, John Kiriakou, told ABC News and other news media organizations in 2007 that Abu Zubaydah had undergone waterboarding for only 35 seconds before agreeing to tell everything he knew.

The 2005 memo also says that the C.I.A. used waterboarding 183 times in March 2003 against Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the self-described planner of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

The New York Times reported in 2007 that Mr. Mohammed had been barraged more than 100 times with harsh interrogation methods, causing C.I.A. officers to worry that they might have crossed legal limits and to halt his questioning. But the precise number and the exact nature of the interrogation method was not previously known.

Growing debate

The release of the numbers is likely to become part of the debate about the morality and efficacy of interrogation methods that the Justice Department under the Bush administration declared legal even though the United States had historically treated them as torture.

President Obama plans to visit C.I.A. headquarters Monday and make public remarks to employees, as well as meet privately with officials, an agency spokesman said Sunday night. It will be his first visit to the agency, whose use of harsh interrogation methods he often condemned during the presidential campaign and whose secret prisons he ordered closed on the second full day of his presidency.

C.I.A. officials had opposed the release of the interrogation memo, dated May 30, 2005, which was one of four secret legal memos on interrogation that Mr. Obama ordered to be released last Thursday.

Mr. Obama said C.I.A. officers who had used waterboarding and other harsh interrogation methods with the approval of the Justice Department would not be prosecuted. He has repeatedly suggested that he opposes Congressional proposals for a “truth commission” to examine Bush administration counterterrorism programs, including interrogation and warrantless eavesdropping.

The Senate Intelligence Committee has begun a yearlong, closed-door investigation of the C.I.A. interrogation program, in part to assess claims of Bush administration officials that brutal treatment, including slamming prisoners into walls, shackling them in standing positions for days and confining them in small boxes, was necessary to get information.

The fact that waterboarding was repeated so many times may raise questions about its effectiveness, as well as about assertions by Bush administration officials that their methods were used under strict guidelines.

A footnote to another 2005 Justice Department memo released Thursday said waterboarding was used both more frequently and with a greater volume of water than the C.I.A. rules permitted.

Bloggers help uncover info

The new information on the number of waterboarding episodes came out over the weekend when a number of bloggers, including Marcy Wheeler of the blog emptywheel, discovered it in the May 30, 2005, memo.

The sentences in the memo containing that information appear to have been redacted from some copies but are visible in others. Initial news reports about the memos in The New York Times and other publications did not include the numbers.

Michael V. Hayden, director of the C.I.A. for the last two years of the Bush administration, would not comment when asked on the program “Fox News Sunday” if Mr. Mohammed had been waterboarded 183 times. He said he believed that that information was still classified.

A C.I.A. spokesman, reached Sunday night, also would not comment on the new information.

Mr. Hayden said he had opposed the release of the memos, even though President Obama has said the techniques will never be used again, because they would tell Al Qaeda “the outer limits that any American would ever go in terms of interrogating an Al Qaeda terrorist.”

He also disputed an article in The New York Times on Saturday that said Abu Zubaydah had revealed nothing new after being waterboarded, saying that he believed that after unspecified “techniques” were used, Abu Zubaydah revealed information that led to the capture of another terrorist suspect, Ramzi Binalshibh.

The Times article, based on information from former intelligence officers who spoke on condition of anonymity, said Abu Zubaydah had revealed a great deal of information before harsh methods were used and after his captors stripped him of clothes, kept him in a cold cell and kept him awake at night. The article said interrogators at the secret prison in Thailand believed he had given up all the information he had, but officials at headquarters ordered them to use waterboarding.

He revealed no new information after being waterboarded, the article said, a conclusion that appears to be supported by a footnote to a 2005 Justice Department memo saying the use of the harshest methods appeared to have been “unnecessary” in his case.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30302830

[DFWJC]

Nice work! Hope they got the information they needed. ;)

[Rogah]

The C.I.A. officers used waterboarding at least 83 times in August 2002 against Abu Zubaydah, according to a 2005 Justice Department legal memorandum. Abu Zubaydah has been described as a Qaeda operative.This is very disappointing news. I would have hoped they waterboarded the architect of 9/11 much more frequently than those numbers suggest.

And yes, I am being serious.

[JBond]

It a good thing we used the water boarding. Who knows how many lives would have been needlessly destroyed in LA without it. In fact it was successful in breaking up elements of AL Qaeda and several terror plots. Kudos to the CIA.

[masomenos]

This is very disappointing news. I would have hoped they waterboarded the architect of 9/11 much more frequently than those numbers suggest.

And yes, I am being serious.

After the 150th time, they should have just plain drowned the s.o.b.

And yes, I am being serious too.

[JBond]

After the 150th time, they should have just plain drowned the s.o.b.

And yes, I am being serious too.


I am hoping the boat or plane used to transfer the gitmo trash to our shores has a mysterious accident. Maybe Obama should consult with Bill Clinton on the game plan.

[Rogah]

After the 150th time, they should have just plain drowned the s.o.b.

And yes, I am being serious too.I wouldn't lose any sleep if that happened. Either that or just announce that they are going to grant him his official release into the streets of New York City and let us know exactly when and where. He'd be unconscious within 10 seconds and dead within 15.

[DaBoys4Life]

I feel the same no need to play nice with terrorist.

[burmafrd]

If waterboarding is SO terrible how in the world did they survive? hundreds of times SUPPOSEDLY.

[JBond]

If waterboarding is SO terrible how in the world did they survive? hundreds of times SUPPOSEDLY.

Maybe we should have cut of their heads and video taped it for their loved ones.................after the water boarding.

[ConcordCowboy]

A Timeline of Torture

http://www.newsweek.com/id/194523

[Hoofbite]

If waterboarding is SO terrible how in the world did they survive? hundreds of times SUPPOSEDLY.

Are you saying its not?

And what are you saying isn't bad?

The idea of it or the experience?

[Cajuncowboy]

This is very disappointing news. I would have hoped they waterboarded the architect of 9/11 much more frequently than those numbers suggest.

And yes, I am being serious.

I agree. Should have been much more. Should have been used for recreation for the gaurds at Gitmo. Give them something fun to do on Friday nights.

[iceberg]

if you have to use a form of "torture" 133 times per person, i'd have to say it's not a very effective torture.

[DaBoys4Life]

if you have to use a form of "torture" 133 times per person, i'd have to say it's not a very effective torture.

Unless they did it within the span on 10 minutes.....

[jrumann59]

Are you saying its not?

And what are you saying isn't bad?

The idea of it or the experience?

Personally if I was a terrorist I would take torture from the USA because I am fairly sure I will not be killed in torture. This gov't doesn't have the stomach to deal with terrorists they way they need to be dealt with. I mean torture is more pyschological then physical the person being tortured has to believ in their heart and mind that his/her captors will cross the line and the USA has shown it will not.

[Cajuncowboy]

if you have to use a form of "torture" 133 times per person, i'd have to say it's not a very effective torture.

Or very deadly.

[Danny White]

Shoulda gone "Jack Bauer" on their arses.

gRql88FqT7c

[Future]

If they had anything to do with 9/11...and I don't know for sure so I won't speculate...but if they did they deserve every "torture" they get. Nearly drowning can't be nearly as bad as being burned or crushed to death, or being pushed out of a window hundreds of stories high b/c people don't have enough room to breathe. I feel no sympathy for these guys.

[Doomsday101]

If they had anything to do with 9/11...and I don't know for sure so I won't speculate...but if they did they deserve every "torture" they get. Nearly drowning can't be nearly as bad as being burned or crushed to death, or being pushed out of a window hundreds of stories high b/c people don't have enough room to breathe. I feel no sympathy for these guys.

Get ready for the if we do that we are no better than them. :laugh1:

[Jordan55]

Now unfortunately were going to be forced to shoot the SOB's since we can't interrogate any more, I believe it's required that we have to read them their Meranda rights if captured. Now for the big News PETA is up in arms, because of all the unattended goats in Afghanistan. How could we be so harsh!

[Future]

:cool: Get ready for the if we do that we are no better than them. :laugh1:
:laugh2:

I just happen to believe that two wrongs do make a right:cool:

[Doomsday101]

:cool:
:laugh2:

I just happen to believe that two wrongs do make a right:cool:

I have no pity on the terrorist and even less for the so called American Taliban or al Qaeda who I think should be put in front of a firing squad and shot for treason

[Bob Sacamano]

I have no sympathy for them, wish they drowned the bastids

[ConcordCowboy]

I don't think the U.S. should torture.

But I got to admit waterboarding these guys...I really got no problem with it.

Just went to Ground Zero a week ago.

[Doomsday101]

I don't think the U.S. should torture.

But I got to admit waterboarding these guys...I really got no problem with it.

Just went to Ground Zero a week ago.

And what was your view of waterboarding before you went to Ground Zero?

[ConcordCowboy]

And what was your view of waterboarding before you went to Ground Zero?

Same as after.

Don't think we should do it...but these guys are special.

Just like I'd like to do it to Bin-Laden.

[Doomsday101]

Same as after.

Don't think we should do it...but these guys are special.

Just like I'd like to do it to Bin-Laden.

I don't think we have been doing it to those who are not "special" as you put it.

[ConcordCowboy]

I don't think we have been doing it to those who are not "special" as you put it.

Well by special I mean planned 9/11.

I don't think there are many of them.

[DFWJC]

I don't think the U.S. should torture.

But I got to admit waterboarding these guys...I really got no problem with it.

Just went to Ground Zero a week ago.

I could see that.

I guess I have a tipping point...after that almost any thing goes. The big dilemna is on certainty of guilt. These guys who 100% without a doubt were involved in killing and plotting to kill American lives....and who also most certainly have information that can prevent futher deaths...I just have not real mercy whatsoever. Fully extract the information...Jack Bauer like if necessary.

These cases are selctive or "special" as you say, but I do think waterboarding should be the least of their worries when we get them.

I do understand the reasoning why we should not as a general practice us extreme measure to get information, but common sense dictates that there are some cases where all bets are off.

[burmafrd]

OK guys the whiners have been wailing and moaning for years about how TERRIBLE this is. If its so terrible how can you get through it 100 times or so and not go nuts or otherwise have permanent damage which supposedly from all accounts has not happened. So to me it seems obvious this is nowhere near as bad as manyhave claimed. OR we do not know how to do it right.....

[MetalHead]

266 waterboardings and zero heads separated from their bodies.

[Bob Sacamano]

OK guys the whiners have been wailing and moaning for years about how TERRIBLE this is. If its so terrible how can you get through it 100 times or so and not go nuts or otherwise have permanent damage which supposedly from all accounts has not happened. So to me it seems obvious this is nowhere near as bad as manyhave claimed. OR we do not know how to do it right.....

well it's not enjoyable

[Jarv]

Well by special I mean planned 9/11.

I don't think there are many of them.

I don't look at it as punishment, more so as prevention.

The ole closing the barn door after the horses have left.

[zrinkill]

Personally I would very much go "Jack Bauer" on these piece of filth's arses.

But I will stress again that this is not the place of our Military men and should not be "policy".

I do not want our Military men to be subject to the sullying of Honor that comes with base torture.

CIA ...... Special Opps ...... FBI ...... they are gonna do certain things that need to be done no matter what public opinion is.

And the main point is that its ineffective ...... we have people that can talk to these animals and have them singing like canaries.

Mental interrogation these days is a lot more effective than base torture ..... esp when combined with sleep deprivation.


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[trickblue]

well it's not enjoyable

The IRS can waterboard me every April 15th in lieu of me paying taxes...

[SuspectCorner]

Thanks for a very eye-opening thread. Great job of rationalizing anything your government can get a DOJ greenlight on.

So let's just project these assumptions about torture onto the rest of the world. As a nation, do we really want to make this contribution to a world future where torture is arbitrarily justifiable? This is our response to diminished US moral authority in this crazy world? And we can still admonish those countries we feel abuse human rights - and expect them to take us seriously, or anybody else for that matter?

Absolutely sickening. :puke:

[ScipioCowboy]

Although I'm personally opposed to waterboarding, I support the freedom of choice in waterboarding.;)

And, yes, I am being facetious.

[iceberg]

Thanks for a very eye-opening thread. Great job of rationalizing anything your government can get a DOJ greenlight on.

So let's just project these assumptions about torture onto the rest of the world. As a nation, do we really want to make this contribution to a world future where torture is arbitrarily justifiable? This is our response to diminished US moral authority in this crazy world? And we can still admonish those countries we feel abuse human rights - and expect them to take us seriously, or anybody else for that matter?

Absolutely sickening. :puke:

so, are there *any* countries out there that have NEVER tortured anyone?

[trickblue]

Thanks for a very eye-opening thread. Great job of rationalizing anything your government can get a DOJ greenlight on.

So let's just project these assumptions about torture onto the rest of the world. As a nation, do we really want to make this contribution to a world future where torture is arbitrarily justifiable? This is our response to diminished US moral authority in this crazy world? And we can still admonish those countries we feel abuse human rights - and expect them to take us seriously, or anybody else for that matter?

Absolutely sickening. :puke:

Unlike late term abortions... but that's another thread... ;)

[ScipioCowboy]

Unlike late term abortions... but that's another thread... ;)

You and I had the exact same thought. In my response, I was trying to be clever about it. Oh well!:)

[jimmy40]

Waterboarding used 266 times on 2 suspects

C.I.A. employed near-drowning technique against Al Qaeda prisoners

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/090420-Mohammed-Zubaydah-hmed-225a.h2.jpg
Key terrorism prisoners Abu Zubaydah, left, and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, right, were waterboarded at least 266 times.


C.I.A. interrogators used waterboarding, the near-drowning technique that top Obama administration officials have described as illegal torture, 266 times on two key prisoners from Al Qaeda, far more than had been previously reported.

Outstanding.

[sbark]

Unlike late term abortions... but that's another thread... ;)

.......not really, it fits right into this discussion at this point very nicely..

[CowboyFan74]

Strip em down and dangle them above some dirty pigs and they will talk. No violence just pure psychological torture. Make em think they're going to "Hell" unclean for eternity. And for good measure get a guy to pretend to be a Muslim cleric to play good cop telling them over and over if they touch those pigs before they die they're doomed. Get creative...:cool:

[SuspectCorner]

so, are there *any* countries out there that have NEVER tortured anyone?

How many countries are you concerned about regaining their stature as the undisputed (moral or otherwise) leaders of the free world?

Just one for me - our country. The great thing about a leadership position is having a bigger say in where the world goes from here. But I don't see how we can regain that position unless we deal with this torture issue giving it the gravity it deserves. And it is grave.

Too late to spank Torquemada - and Idi Amin was never gonna set the pace. This is about us. And if we don't take our situation seriously - the rest of the world will take it as another example of American exceptionalism. And that act is already wearing thin.

Time stop being the exception and return to being the living example and embodiment of the world's hopes.

[jrumann59]

How many countries are you concerned about regaining their stature as the undisputed (moral or otherwise) leaders of the free world?

Just one for me - our country. The great thing about a leadership position is having a bigger say in where the world goes from here. But I don't see how we can regain that position unless we deal with this torture issue giving it the gravity it deserves. And it is grave.

Too late to spank Torquemada - and Idi Amin was never gonna set the pace. This is about us. And if we don't take our situation seriously - the rest of the world will take it as another example of American exceptionalism. And that act is already wearing thin.

Time stop being the exception and return to being the living example and embodiment of the world's hopes.

So its ok to flood the world with OUR morals but it isn't ok to tell people in this country how to live morally. Makes sense to me. I have said this many times in the past I will take the moral high road only when the bad guys stop sucker punching me in my moral low road.

[SuspectCorner]

So its ok to flood the world with OUR morals but it isn't ok to tell people in this country how to live morally. Makes sense to me. I have said this many times in the past I will take the moral high road only when the bad guys stop sucker punching me in my moral low road.

Don't confuse what I'm talking about with the social issues here in the US - like abortion, same-sex marriage, stem cell research, etc.

Torture is NOT a social issue. It is plainly criminal.

It's one thing to meet force with force on whatever battlefield we find our enemies. It's another thing to torture those in our custody. Civilized nations do NOT torture. And nations that DO - are NOT civilized, no matter how technologically advanced they may be.

We are not Oceania - but we can get there soon enough if we don't immediately and dramatically alter our national perception of what is acceptable.

[trickblue]

Torture is NOT a social issue. It is plainly criminal

As is taking the life of a child born alive in the name of "choice"...

Where is your compassion for those born alive?

[ScipioCowboy]

Don't confuse what I'm talking about with the social issues here in the US - like abortion, same-sex marriage, stem cell research, etc.

Torture is NOT a social issue. It is plainly criminal.

It's one thing to meet force with force on whatever battlefield we find our enemies. It's another thing to torture those in our custody. Civilized nations do NOT torture. And nations that DO - are NOT civilized, no matter how technologically advanced they may be.

We are not Oceania - but we can get there soon enough if we don't immediately and dramatically alter our national perception of what is acceptable.

Sure it is. The prevailing social attitudes toward torture determine our attitudes toward torture.

[SuspectCorner]

As is taking the life of a child born alive in the name of "choice"...

Where is your compassion for those born alive?

And I'm all choked up at the way you conservatives bemoan the thousands of maimed and killed children from the Iraq War. Funny how conservatives are all steadfast about the rights of a fetus. But once it's free of the womb - "kid, you're on your own." Yank down the social safety nets, death penalty, pre-emptive war, torture.

Yep, once they're born - **** 'em. :D

[trickblue]

And I'm all choked up at the way you conservatives bemoan the thousands of maimed and killed children from the Iraq War. Funny how conservatives are all steadfast about the rights of a fetus. But once it's free of the womb - "kid, you're on your own." Yank down the social safety nets, death penalty, pre-emptive war, torture.

Yep, once they're born - **** 'em. :D

Pretty sweet rhetoric you have working there...

Avoid the question by implicating Bush once again...

I would think by now you would have something different... obviously you don't...

The loss of ANY child is tragic. While war is a terrible thing to the many innocents that are affected, we here, in the US, kill them when they are born alive in the name of choice...

This is truly an inconvenient truth...

[ScipioCowboy]

And I'm all choked up at the way you conservatives bemoan the thousands of maimed and killed children from the Iraq War. Funny how conservatives are all steadfast about the rights of a fetus. But once it's free of the womb - "kid, you're on your own." Yank down the social safety nets, death penalty, pre-emptive war, torture.

Yep, once they're born - **** 'em. :D

I'm not a proponent of the Iraq war. However, the hope of many of its supporters is that it will eventually lead to a better and safer life for future Iraqis.

Obviously, the goal of this war isn't to kill children. It most certainly happens, but we avoid it whenever possible. The goal is now preserving rights and freedom for future generations of children.

[SuspectCorner]

Pretty sweet rhetoric you have working there...

Avoid the question by implicating Bush once again...

I would think by now you would have something different... obviously you don't...

The loss of ANY child is tragic. While war is a terrible thing to the many innocents that are affected, we here, in the US, kill them when they are born alive in the name of choice...

This is truly an inconvenient truth...

I didn't mention Bush - I said "conservatives". On this subject your viewpoint seems to square with conservatives more than libertarians (which seem to to be more split on this issue).

I support a woman's right to choice. I never really got how "pro-life" meshes with libertarianism - as it seems to put the rights of the unborn fetus ahead of the rights of the mother.

Now, who do I think is most qualified to make that call - a disassociated and uninvested outsider... or the mother? You have to raise YOUR KIDS - not anybody elses.

But if you think of it as murder it would be only natural for you to be outraged. It's not an easy call. But I have to side with the choice of the mother.

[trickblue]

I didn't mention Bush - I said "conservatives". On this subject your viewpoint seems to square with conservatives more than libertarians (which seem to to be more split on this issue).

I support a woman's right to choice. I never really got how "pro-life" meshes with libertarianism - as it seems to put the rights of the unborn fetus ahead of the rights of the mother.

Now, who do I think is most qualified to make that call - a disassociated and uninvested outsider... or the mother? You have to raise YOUR KIDS - not anybody elses.

But if you think of it as murder it would be only natural for you to be outraged. It's not an easy call. But I have to side with the choice of the mother.

I have always maintained that I am a Conservatarian...

I do NOT support a woman's right to "choose" as it is not solely her choice; it takes two to make an embryo. That same woman could choose to go full term then sue the father for child support.

That being said, I have relegated this discussion to late term abortions and that is a whole different animal...

You can choose to lump the entire issue into one category, but that is just for convenience on your part as then you don't have to think about it in terms of what is really going on...

[daschoo]

That being said, I have relegated this discussion to late term abortions and that is a whole different animal...

You can choose to lump the entire issue into one category, but that is just for convenience on your part as then you don't have to think about it in terms of what is really going on...

just going to throw in my tuppence worth on this point. late term abortion i would be against under any circumstances, if you have a legitimate reason for aborting (i'll get to that in a minute) then why does it need to be a late term abortion. surely it will have been dealt with long before it gets to that late stage. as for abortion in general i think it is perfectly acceptable under exceptional circumstances for example rape victims however not as a form of emergency contraception which seems to be a growing trend.
as for torture while i would be against it in principle i think when you are dealing with people like these and innocent lives are at stake then like any rule there should be exceptions. the obvious moral dilemna is how sure you are that they have information that they are witholding.

[Beast_from_East]

I have to admit that I am conflicted over this.


On one hand, I am against torture and regardless of what Alberto Gonzales said was ok, waterboarding is torture. The fact that it was done 266 times is very troublesome, what exactly is a prisoner going to tell you on the 250th time that he didnt tell you on the 249th time?

I also find the excuse that it is the only way to extract info to be totally retarded. The FBI solves cases every freaking day by getting information and confessions out of criminals without using any torture techniques at all. So if the FBI can get info without torturing, how come the CIA cant???



On the other hand, the two guys that planned 911 are freaking monsters and should have been drowned the first time they were waterboarded.


So I guess I am in the boat that we should not do it anymore in the future, but I am 100% against any investigations or prosecutions. What happened in the past, stays in the past. Lets look forward and not back.

[SuspectCorner]

I have always maintained that I am a Conservatarian...

I do NOT support a woman's right to "choose" as it is not solely her choice; it takes two to make an embryo. That same woman could choose to go full term then sue the father for child support.

That being said, I have relegated this discussion to late term abortions and that is a whole different animal...

You can choose to lump the entire issue into one category, but that is just for convenience on your part as then you don't have to think about it in terms of what is really going on...

How magnanimous of you to limit the discussion to less than 1 percent of all the abortions that occur. But then you could easily ramp up the overall anti-abortion sentiment by leading with your ace.

I see where the "trick" comes from - now explain the "blue" part. :D

[daschoo]

far be it from me to defend trickblue, on here we usualy disagree way more than we agree, but i think anybody looking at the comment of his you quoted would be quite capable of looking at the issue of abortions in general or just late term abortions and not be misled into agreeing with him on an issue they otherwise wouldn't. in fact if you look at his last paragraph

"You can choose to lump the entire issue into one category, but that is just for convenience on your part as then you don't have to think about it in terms of what is really going on"

i would read that as him acknowledging that late term abortions are a seperate issue though i may be reading that wrong

[SuspectCorner]

far be it from me to defend trickblue, on here we usualy disagree way more than we agree, but i think anybody looking at the comment of his you quoted would be quite capable of looking at the issue of abortions in general or just late term abortions and not be misled into agreeing with him on an issue they otherwise wouldn't. in fact if you look at his last paragraph

"You can choose to lump the entire issue into one category, but that is just for convenience on your part as then you don't have to think about it in terms of what is really going on"

i would read that as him acknowledging that late term abortions are a seperate issue though i may be reading that wrong

Fair enough. If trickblue is alright with all abortions that are not late term - he can say so now and I will owe him an apology. I don't mind apologizing to trickblue. Heck, I'd rather apologize to him than just about anybody on this board.

[Doomsday101]

Well by special I mean planned 9/11.

I don't think there are many of them.

But no one who may be planning the next 9/11? We will allow 3,000 more people to be killed instead of going after terrorist and getting any and all info we can out of them?

[ConcordCowboy]

But no one who may be planning the next 9/11? We will allow 3,000 more people to be killed instead of going after terrorist and getting any and all info we can out of them?

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was beyond a shadow of a doubt responsible for planning 9/11...so I have no problem waterboarding him.

Same with Bin-Laden.

There are some people who we have detained that have been released...because we were wrong about them.

They didn't deserve to be waterboarded.

There lies the problem to me with waterboading everyone.

[Doomsday101]

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was beyond a shadow of a doubt responsible for planning 9/11...so I have no problem waterboarding him.

Same with Bin-Laden.

There are some people who we have detained that have been released...because we were wrong about them.

They didn't deserve to be waterboarded.

There lies the problem to me with waterboading everyone.

Where has it been reported everyone has been waterboarded?

[ConcordCowboy]

Where has it been reported everyone has been waterboarded?


If one was waterboarded and he shouldn't have been...it's too much.

I'm sure some have been...can I prove it no.

Can you prove it didn't happen?

No.

[DFWJC]

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was beyond a shadow of a doubt responsible for planning 9/11...so I have no problem waterboarding him.

Same with Bin-Laden.

There are some people who we have detained that have been released...because we were wrong about them.

They didn't deserve to be waterboarded.

There lies the problem to me with waterboading everyone.

Certainly there should be no waterboarding (or more) unless there is absolutely no doubt that the prisoner is a terrorist holding potentially valuable information. So beyond reasonable doubt would not cut it...it should be very close or absolute certainty--which it was in the 2 cases decribed in this thread.

[ConcordCowboy]

Certainly there should be no waterboarding (or more) unless there is absolutely no doubt that the prisoner is a terrorist holding potentially valuable information. So beyond reasonable doubt would not cut it...it should be very close or absolute certainty--which it was in the 2 cases decribed in this thread.

We agree.

[Doomsday101]

If one was waterboarded and he shouldn't have been...it's too much.

I'm sure some have been...can I prove it no.

Can you prove it didn't happen?

No.

Yes because look at the damage in caused the 2 they reported? They both appear in better health then they deserve. We are not chopping heads off we are producing the sensation of drowning

[ConcordCowboy]

Yes because look at the damage in caused the 2 they reported? They both appear in better health then they deserve. We are not chopping heads off we are producing the sensation of drowning

Whether they are healthy or it caused damage to them or not has nothing to do with it.

[Doomsday101]

Whether they are healthy or it caused damage to them or not has nothing to do with it.

No but getting information does have something to do with it. If by doing this we can prevent the loss of American lives as we saw on 9/11 then your damn right I would do it. These thugs fly no flag they represent no country they are cut throats who take innocent lives with no guilt or regret. Some of these so called innocent you talk about have also been picked up again or have committed suicide bombing

[iceberg]

How many countries are you concerned about regaining their stature as the undisputed (moral or otherwise) leaders of the free world?

Just one for me - our country. The great thing about a leadership position is having a bigger say in where the world goes from here. But I don't see how we can regain that position unless we deal with this torture issue giving it the gravity it deserves. And it is grave.

Too late to spank Torquemada - and Idi Amin was never gonna set the pace. This is about us. And if we don't take our situation seriously - the rest of the world will take it as another example of American exceptionalism. And that act is already wearing thin.

Time stop being the exception and return to being the living example and embodiment of the world's hopes.

if you want us to be the ONLY country that doesn't torture, then are we not by defination "the exception"?

i'm not making it ok. i'm saying torture has been around since mankind was around and it's a tad unrealistic to think we'll be the 1st in history to put an end to it, even if only ourselves. people want "ideals" to drive action and if it's something mankind seems to do regardless of race, color or creed, then maybe it's not a "united states" problem, but something we face together.

[zrinkill]

then maybe it's not a "united states" problem, but something we face together.

:hammer:

But he will not admit that ..... takes away his chance to blame "evil conservatives"

[ConcordCowboy]

No but getting information does have something to do with it. If by doing this we can prevent the loss of American lives as we saw on 9/11 then your damn right I would do it. These thugs fly no flag they represent no country they are cut throats who take innocent lives with no guilt or regret. Some of these so called innocent you talk about have also been picked up again or have committed suicide bombing

And some were innocent.

Which makes waterboarding them wrong.

The U.S. knew that KSM wasn't innocent...hence I have no problem with waterboarding him.

[Temo]

At least, after all the pointless arguments and double-talk of the years past, we can agree that Waterboarding IS torture.

Now we can argue about it's necessity.

[Doomsday101]

At least, after all the pointless arguments and double-talk of the years past, we can agree that Waterboarding IS torture.

Now we can argue about it's necessity.

How about Sleep deprivation that is considered torture? Should we be able to do that? I have the feeling pretty please with sugar on top is not going to do the trick. :laugh1:

[Temo]

How about Sleep deprivation that is considered torture? Should we be able to do that? I have the feeling pretty please with sugar on top is not going to do the trick. :laugh1:

Yes, sleep deprivation is torture, although by all accounts it's not as extremely stressful on the psyche as waterboarding. As for using it, I dunno. I suspect that it's a case-by-case thing, like waterboarding.

But I do think that giving certain wings of the government carte blanche to exercise torture whenever they see fit is un-American. We don't practice unregulated security forces who act relatively independantly and secretly. The CIA gets as close to that as possible (and the NSA), but they're not as independant as say the KGB was in the Soviet Union.

But that's why the CIA was never a match for the KGB during the Cold War too; our country has always been based on openness and transparency. It's a trade off. (By the way, I recommend a book called "Legacy of Ashes", a very well researched alternate history of the CIA and it's sucesses and failures-- well, mostly failures.)

[Doomsday101]

Yes, sleep deprivation is torture. As for using it, I dunno. I suspect that it's a case-by-case thing, like waterboarding.

But I do think that giving certain wings of the government carte blanche to exercise torture whenever they see fit is un-American. We don't practice unregulated security forces who act relatively independantly and secretly. The CIA gets as close to that as possible (and the NSA), but they're not as independant as say the KGB was in the Soviet Union.

But that's why the CIA was never a match for the KGB during the Cold War too; our country has always been based on openness and transparency. It's a trade off. (By the way, I recommend a book called "Legacy of Ashes", a very well researched alternate history of the CIA and it's sucesses and failures-- well, mostly failures.)

I have never pretended that the cloak and dagger world did not exist It does and it is a dangerous world we live in and there are many things the CIA has done that will never be told. I wish this could be Mr. Rogers’s neighborhood but it is not and I refuse to act like it is. We are dealing with cut throat who will take out 3,000 at the blink of an eye you do what you must to protect this nation, playing PC with lives is something we can't afford.

[Temo]

I have never pretended that the cloak and dagger world did not exist It does and it is a dangerous world we live in and there are many things the CIA has done that will never be told. I wish this could be Mr. Rogers’s neighborhood but it is not and I refuse to act like it is. We are dealing with cut throat who will take out 3,000 at the blink of an eye you do what you must to protect this nation, playing PC with lives is something we can't afford.

It's not about playing PC, it's about not compromising your principles and way of life for too small a marginal upgrade in security (so again, the matter of "when" and "in what situation").

I think torture is wrong, but I will exchange that wrong in order to protect lives and prevent a greater wrong... but not all situations have lives at risk.

I suspect al'qaeda is like most organizations in that only top-level leaders have access to the "big picture" information that's really worth committing this particular sin (sin in a secular sense). Some militant you pick off the street shooting his rifle wildly at American soldiers? As much as they are our enemies, I think they should be afforded the Geneva Conventions as Prisoners of War as much as possible.

[ABQCOWBOY]

It's not about playing PC, it's about not compromising your principles and way of life for too small a marginal upgrade in security (so again, the matter of "when" and "in what situation").

I think torture is wrong, but I will exchange that wrong in order to protect lives and prevent a greater wrong... but not all situations have lives at risk.

I suspect al'qaeda is like most organizations in that only top-level leaders have access to the "big picture" information that's really worth committing this particular sin (sin in a secular sense). Some militant you pick off the street shooting his rifle wildly at American soldiers? As much as they are our enemies, I think they should be afforded the Geneva Conventions as Prisoners of War as much as possible.

As soon as a country claims them as lawful soldiers and puts them in uniform, then they should get all the rights afforded them by the Geneva Convention. Until that time, it would be crazy to extend those rights to these people. How do you extend those rights to somebody who could kill countless individuals by releasing Anthrax or some other deadly agent? This is hypothetical but it is also a known threat. You can't treat these people in this manner. You only play into there hands.

[Vintage]

Nuke 'em all.

Terrorists.

Civilians.

Unborn fetuses.

Criminals.


As Twista said... "kill 'em all."

[Doomsday101]

It's not about playing PC, it's about not compromising your principles and way of life for too small a marginal upgrade in security (so again, the matter of "when" and "in what situation").

I think torture is wrong, but I will exchange that wrong in order to protect lives and prevent a greater wrong... but not all situations have lives at risk.

I suspect al'qaeda is like most organizations in that only top-level leaders have access to the "big picture" information that's really worth committing this particular sin (sin in a secular sense). Some militant you pick off the street shooting his rifle wildly at American soldiers? As much as they are our enemies, I think they should be afforded the Geneva Conventions as Prisoners of War as much as possible.

No it is about saving American lives, you can keep the principals they don't mean much when loved one are dead at the hands of terrorist. It hacks me off the bleeding hearts scream about principals until an attack happen then complains why the Government did not do more to stop it. You tie the hands of our CIA and you will have dead American and that in my book is not worth it. These terrorist do not fly a flag they wear no uniform their goal is to attack and kill innocent civilians and as far as I'm concerned do not deserve the protection granted through the Geneva Convention.

[Temo]

No it is about saving American lives, you can keep the principals they don't mean much when loved one are dead at the hands of terrorist. It hacks me off the bleeding hearts scream about principals until an attack happen then complains why the Government did not do more to stop it. You tie the hands of our CIA and you will have dead American and that in my book is not worth it. These terrorist do not fly a flag they wear no uniform their goal is to attack and kill innocent civilians and as far as I'm concerned do not deserve the protection granted through the Geneva Convention.

*Principle, and Geneva Conventions (sorry, these things irrationally bother me :()

I fundamentally do believe that principles do matter and If you want to use the word-- then yes, I do think torture is evil. I don't generally believe in subverting these principles except for the greater good. It shouldn't be a matter of regular practice for my country.

And as far as greater good goes, it doesn't matter what a person has "done"-- only what "could be done". If they deserve to be punished for their actions, then death is the limit of any such punishment; to me, torture itself is not a valid punishment for anyone for any crime. So spare me any rhetoric on these evil people and their evil deeds. If you can stop further damage, then maybe torture is a means to an end, but it's the end result by itself.

[Doomsday101]

*Principle, and Geneva Conventions (sorry, these things irrationally bother me :()

I fundamentally do believe that principles do matter and If you want to use the word-- then yes, I do think torture is evil. I don't generally believe in subverting these principles except for the greater good. It shouldn't be a matter of regular practice for my country.

And as far as greater good goes, it doesn't matter what a person has "done"-- only what "could be done". If they deserve to be punished for their actions, then death is the limit of any such punishment; to me, torture itself is not a valid punishment for anyone for any crime. So spare me any rhetoric on these evil people and their evil deeds. If you can stop further damage, then maybe torture is a means to an end, but it's the end result by itself.

You are talking after the fact I'm talking about doing what needs to be done to prevent it. When you have dead loved ones it is bit to fricken late and most of those responsible are dead themselfs.

[Temo]

You are talking after the fact I'm talking about doing what needs to be done to prevent it. When you have dead loved ones it is bit to fricken late and most of those responsible are dead themselfs.

I am talking after the fact about what, exactly? I'm attempting to lay down the grounds on which torture can be used, and all you can give me is the same stuff about "wait till your loved ones are dead".

[ABQCOWBOY]

No it is about saving American lives, you can keep the principals they don't mean much when loved one are dead at the hands of terrorist. It hacks me off the bleeding hearts scream about principals until an attack happen then complains why the Government did not do more to stop it. You tie the hands of our CIA and you will have dead American and that in my book is not worth it. These terrorist do not fly a flag they wear no uniform their goal is to attack and kill innocent civilians and as far as I'm concerned do not deserve the protection granted through the Geneva Convention.

If you recall, this is the same thing that happened to the intelligence community under the Clinton Administration. Of course, the difference there is that we cut funding and lost most our field operatives. This severely hampered our nations ability to gather intelligence. It forced us to rely on different intelligence agencies from different countries, which in turn made us vulnerable to misinformation and a general lack of intelligence throughout the world. It was in this environment that terrorist organizations like the Taliban and Al Quada thrived to reach the strengths they enjoyed in 2001. It also made us dependent on foreign operatives and there methods of gathering information. Many of those methods are much more sever then waterboarding.

Now, we have the same kind of thing going on but just a bit different tact on how to reduce our intelligence communities ability to effectively gather information. It will eventually produce the same results. We will be blind to the next attack and everybody will scream for the heads of the Government again.

[Doomsday101]

If you recall, this is the same thing that happened to the intelligence community under the Clinton Administration. Of course, the difference there is that we cut funding and lost most our field operatives. This severely hampered our nations ability to gather intelligence. It forced us to rely on different intelligence agencies from different countries, which in turn made us vulnerable to misinformation and a general lack of intelligence throughout the world. It was in this environment that terrorist organizations like the Taliban and Al Quada thrived to reach the strengths they enjoyed in 2001. It also made us dependent on foreign operatives and there methods of gathering information. Many of those methods are much more sever then waterboarding.

Now, we have the same kind of thing going on but just a bit different tact on how to reduce our intelligence communities ability to effectively gather information. It will eventually produce the same results. We will be blind to the next attack and everybody will scream for the heads of the Government again.

I fully agree with you, you tie the hands of those put in charge of protecting this nation and we will see many more killed by these groups. I would rather be proactive than reactive

[Doomsday101]

I am talking after the fact about what, exactly? I'm attempting to lay down the grounds on which torture can be used, and all you can give me is the same stuff about "wait till your loved ones are dead".

No you are talking about after the fact once the attack take place? Please you would torture these 2 guys after 3000 are dead but do nothing to prevent 3000 more to be killed? After the fact means nothing people are dead after the fact and yes loved ones should mean alot when we wittness 3000 american killed by these thugs and you are worried about thier rights.

[Temo]

No you are talking about after the fact once the attack take place? Please you would torture these 2 guys after 3000 are dead but do nothing to prevent 3000 more to be killed? After the fact means nothing people are dead after the fact and yes loved ones should mean alot when we wittness 3000 american killed by these thugs and you are worried about thier rights.

To quote myself:

I think torture is wrong, but I will exchange that wrong in order to protect lives and prevent a greater wrong... but not all situations have lives at risk.

[Doomsday101]

To quote myself:

And not all prisoners have been water boarded. The Bush Administration and the CIA where not doing this for the fun of it they did it because on 9/11 we saw American lives taken and they swore this would not happen again and have done what they felt was right to ensure that. Even Obama is still using the same wire tapping used under the dreaded Bush and Cheney yet the outrage is silent no calls for impeachment only thing that changed is now the chosen one is President.

[Temo]

And not all prisoners have been water boarded. The Bush Administration and the CIA where not doing this for the fun of it they did it because on 9/11 we saw American lives taken and they swore this would not happen again and have done what they felt was right to ensure that.

Yes, and if you read back my response to the whole thing is "I'm fundamentally against torture, so no government agency or branch should be given free reign to exercise as they see fit. But I do see it as sometimes necessary."

I didn't even say that I disagreed with Bush/Cheney's particular practice of torture, but I do think it should become a matter of public record as soon as is practical. It shouldn't be something practiced in the darkness and out of the public eye, because that's not what our country is based on.

[ABQCOWBOY]

And not all prisoners have been water boarded. The Bush Administration and the CIA where not doing this for the fun of it they did it because on 9/11 we saw American lives taken and they swore this would not happen again and have done what they felt was right to ensure that. Even Obama is still using the same wire tapping used under the dreaded Bush and Cheney yet the outrage is silent no calls for impeachment only thing that changed is now the chosen one is President.

The thing that I find funny about this whole thing is that we teach our own service men and women to endure this type of treatment. We actually use this technique as a training tool on our own people. SFs and even pilots, I believe, withstand waterboard treatment. SERE training uses this as well. It's not even the most drastic level of technique used by our own people on our own soldiers.

This is just so stupid to me.

[Doomsday101]

Yes, and if you read back my response to the whole thing is "I'm fundamentally against torture, so no government agency or branch should be given free reign to exercise as they see fit. But I do see it as sometimes necessary."

I didn't even say that I disagreed with Bush/Cheney's particular practice of torture, but I do think it should become a matter of public record as soon as is practical. It shouldn't be something practiced in the darkness and out of the public eye, because that's not what our country is based on.

And many things over a long period of time do become declassified heck there are fed documents that have been classified since the 60's that are just now being released over the last couple of years.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Yes, and if you read back my response to the whole thing is "I'm fundamentally against torture, so no government agency or branch should be given free reign to exercise as they see fit. But I do see it as sometimes necessary."

I didn't even say that I disagreed with Bush/Cheney's particular practice of torture, but I do think it should become a matter of public record as soon as is practical. It shouldn't be something practiced in the darkness and out of the public eye, because that's not what our country is based on.

The reality, IMO, is that it does more harm then good to bring it to light. I think we can all agree that certain situations call for invasive tactics. That's just how it is unfortunately. The problem is that when you bring this kind of thing to light, the media and a great many Libs create such a storm over it that it becomes counter productive to the objective at hand.

It's not as if this was not known for many, many years prior to it's coming to light. Biden himself saw the reports on a daily basis. Members who sat on these various committies new what was going on and nobody put a hand up to stop any of it because they new that in War, it's messy.

All it really does is weaken the nation IMO and that's a shame.

[Doomsday101]

The thing that I find funny about this whole thing is that we teach our own service men and women to endure this type of treatment. We actually use this technique as a training tool on our own people. SFs and even pilots, I believe, withstand waterboard treatment. SERE training uses this as well. It's not even the most drastic level of technique used by our own people on our own soldiers.

This is just so stupid to me.

I agree I find it amazing then again I think it is politics more than anything else

[Temo]

The thing that I find funny about this whole thing is that we teach our own service men and women to endure this type of treatment. We actually use this technique as a training tool on our own people. SFs and even pilots, I believe, withstand waterboard treatment. SERE training uses this as well. It's not even the most drastic level of technique used by our own people on our own soldiers.

This is just so stupid to me.

I've heard of CIA interrogators undergoing waterboarding as training. According to former CIA officers, the average officer supposedly lasts 14 seconds.

But do you have any references to us doing more drastic levels of techniques to soldiers as training? It seems like stuff like being kept naked, standing, and doused with cold water in a cell for 40 hours is not something that would be effective to do as training.

[Doomsday101]

I've heard of CIA interrogators undergoing waterboarding as training. According to former CIA officers, the average officer supposedly lasts 14 seconds.

But do you have any references to us doing more drastic levels of techniques to soldiers as training? It seems like stuff like being kept naked, standing, and doused with cold water in a cell for 40 hours is not something that would be effective to do as training.

That sounds like Navy Seal training you just described. :laugh1:

[WarC]

I've been to Germany several times.

There was a time in Europe where, wherever there was a jail or a place to hold criminals, there was a place to torture them - It was mandatory - Big cities even had "torture factories", large buildings where one of more entire floors were lined with shackles and devices to restrain, intimidate, or inflict pain on people. Not just serious offenders or murderers, but even common thieves, people who owed money to the local lord or church, and even religious criminals (like blasphemers, liars, supposed witches, etc etc...).

The kinds of things they did on a daily basis throughout Europe were by far worse than the worst methods of interrogation that we use with these terrorists. And these guys are people planning and carrying out attacks on our country, potentially thousands of lives are at stake.

Can't say I feel sorry for 'im.

[Temo]

The reality, IMO, is that it does more harm then good to bring it to light. I think we can all agree that certain situations call for invasive tactics. That's just how it is unfortunately. The problem is that when you bring this kind of thing to light, the media and a great many Libs create such a storm over it that it becomes counter productive to the objective at hand.

It's not as if this was not known for many, many years prior to it's coming to light. Biden himself saw the reports on a daily basis. Members who sat on these various committies new what was going on and nobody put a hand up to stop any of it because they new that in War, it's messy.

All it really does is weaken the nation IMO and that's a shame.

But surely you can see how a government practicing torture in secrecy would be a concern? Again, it does not have to be like a press conference, but the suggestions by some that we just look the other way is absurd to me.

[WarC]

That sounds like Navy Seal training you just described. :laugh1:

Yes, the Navy Seals bring recruits to the edge of drowning as a means to discover how long they can last, its meant as a discpline-building exercise. They also do things like force a recruit underwater and then have him remove his scuba gear, etc etc. Operating under harsh conditions underwater is their game so they go through those things...

...And of course, anybody who has been through Army Basic Training can attest to gas rooms. As part of the biological/chemical weapons and equipment training they load recruits into a room with some form of mild nerve agent so that everybody can discover first hand just how much it sucks to be gassed.

Many police academies these days also have their recruits suffer a hit with a stungun so that they can gauge the effect they have on people they might one day be forced to use it on.

[Temo]

That sounds like Navy Seal training you just described. :laugh1:

Heh, those guys are crazy but what I described results in a broken body more often than it results in a strengthened body. Even during Hell Week, they're given 4 meals a day of hot food to sustain their bodies.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I've heard of CIA interrogators undergoing waterboarding as training. According to former CIA officers, the average officer supposedly lasts 14 seconds.

But do you have any references to us doing more drastic levels of techniques to soldiers as training? It seems like stuff like being kept naked, standing, and doused with cold water in a cell for 40 hours is not something that would be effective to do as training.

In fact it's very effective. The process by which information is extracted is not necessarily contingent upon the level of discomfort at any given moment. It is a process by which you inflict a continuous assault on a persons mental stability. Essentially, the goal is to wear down or break a person. You use a series of different techniques, fear, physical discomfort, mental anguish, isolationisam and many, many more methods designed to break down a persons desire to resist. It's a combined effort. These things are also used in training to build up a tolerance for such methods. Teach you to be stronger mentally. Anybody will break if given enough time alone under these kinds of circumstances. That's not really even debatable but your goal is to provide as much conditioning as possible so that troops or operatives can withstand the hardships long enough to achieve objectives, if at all possible. Deal with the treatment and survive it, in a worst case scenario. As an example, Buds training puts you in the surf for exteneded periods of time and makes you train in wet, cold conditions, all the while trying to force you to break. Trying to force you to make mistakes, break down your mental capacity, your ability to reason. This is common practice. They will also drowned you and bring you back so that you can become accustomed to those kinds of situations. The goal is to teach you to maintain control, control your fear, continue to think to the last possible second. Loss of control is death for you and your shipmates. PJ school does the same thing, for a slightly different reason but for basically the same kinds of things.

[Temo]

Yes, the Navy Seals bring recruits to the edge of drowning as a means to discover how long they can last, its meant as a discpline-building exercise. They also do things like force a recruit underwater and then have him remove his scuba gear, etc etc. Operating under harsh conditions underwater is their game so they go through those things...



If you're talking about "drown-proofing", it's not quite the same as waterboarding... it actually trains you for something you'll see in the field :p

Unless you're talking about something else; I've never been a Seal, so obviously I don't know everythign they do.

[ABQCOWBOY]

But surely you can see how a government practicing torture in secrecy would be a concern? Again, it does not have to be like a press conference, but the suggestions by some that we just look the other way is absurd to me.

Temo, I believe that your reasoning is admirable. We were all taught to play fair and we all understand that this business of torture does not fit with the American Way, if you will. Unfortunately, it is not reality. We have engaged in the business of torture since the inception of our Nation. We are much less ruthless then are most countries when it comes to this. It's the price we pay to be free because freedom, while enjoyed in this country (for the time being) is envied and despised in other countries. Most Americans view things from the pot full perspective. Imagine how people view Americans from the other side? Hungry, poor and living in fear with no real hope for change. This is how the majority of the people in the world live and this is the view from which they see us from.

They will not stop at waterboarding our people.

[Doomsday101]

Yes, the Navy Seals bring recruits to the edge of drowning as a means to discover how long they can last, its meant as a discpline-building exercise. They also do things like force a recruit underwater and then have him remove his scuba gear, etc etc. Operating under harsh conditions underwater is their game so they go through those things...

...And of course, anybody who has been through Army Basic Training can attest to gas rooms. As part of the biological/chemical weapons and equipment training they load recruits into a room with some form of mild nerve agent so that everybody can discover first hand just how much it sucks to be gassed.

Many police academies these days also have their recruits suffer a hit with a stungun so that they can gauge the effect they have on people they might one day be forced to use it on.

I have seen some of their training and it is easy to see why so many drop out it is hard to make it only a small select few will become Seals. They have to overcome a lot of physical and mental stress not too much different in my view to what prisoners under extreme interrogation tactics that weakening them mentally and physically

[ABQCOWBOY]

If you're talking about "drown-proofing", it's not quite the same as waterboarding... it actually trains you for something you'll see in the field :p

Unless you're talking about something else; I've never been a Seal, so obviously I don't know everythign they do.

They also waterboard you. SERE training for the SEALs is part of STT. The point that you can't lose sight of is that much worse happens to us. Much, much worse then waterboard methods. Because worse happens, we train our people for worse. Obviously, you can't simulate cutting somebodies head off but you can prepare our people for that possibility. How they withstand those kinds of things is an unknown until the day actually arrives but we do train for much worse.

[jrumann59]

For waterboarding to be "effective" there has to be a belief their interrogators will let them drown. I am sorry but every Tom, Dick, and Jihadist knows the USA does not kill prisoners, maybe rough them up, but kill them come on. It has been that way since Vietnam. The American public will cry and moan for the prisoners release because we are paying for it before they will get killed during "interrogation". Torture is more pyschological then physical and everyone knows the US has no guts to take the step over the line in the sand when it comes to torture.

[SuspectCorner]

Temo, I believe that your reasoning is admirable. We were all taught to play fair and we all understand that this business of torture does not fit with the American Way, if you will. Unfortunately, it is not reality. We have engaged in the business of torture since the inception of our Nation. We are much less ruthless then are most countries when it comes to this. It's the price we pay to be free because freedom, while enjoyed in this country (for the time being) is envied and despised in other countries. Most Americans view things from the pot full perspective. Imagine how people view Americans from the other side? Hungry, poor and living in fear with no real hope for change. This is how the majority of the people in the world live and this is the view from which they see us from.

They will not stop at waterboarding our people.

Revisionist claptrap!

Provide any evidence of our country engaging in a policy of the systemic torture of prisoners-detainees prior to the George W Bush administration. You will not - because such a program is unprecedented in our history. This was a top-down assault on a signature American principle that had held for over two centuries - "the US does NOT torture."

And the combined rationalizations of all of the flag-draped Jack Bauer-wannabes here and elsewhere add up to pile of excrement when compared to that principle.

[ZB9]

I am on the side of human rights. That is the point. You have to look at the intentions of the CIA in that time after 9/11.

even if WB'ing was wrong, their intention was clearly to gain information to help PROTECT the lives of my family and fellow countrymen from these monsters that are the worst violators of human rights on the planet...and that are determined to kill any and every American that they can (regardless if we are "Democrat" or "Republican"). After 9/11, no one knew how many more impending attacks there were.

I dont defend "aggressive interrogation", and wouldnt be able to accept it...which is why there are certain things I dont need to know and dont want to know. Releasing these memos was a mistake. The majority of the American public could not accept such tactics, yet they want the country to keep their families and fellow countrymen safe in an insane world...Many people like steak, but dont want to know how it gets to the plate.

[SuspectCorner]

I am on the side of human rights. That is the point. You have to look at the intentions of the CIA in that time after 9/11.

even if WB'ing was wrong, their intention was clearly to gain information to help PROTECT the lives of my family and fellow countrymen from these monsters that are the worst violators of human rights on the planet...and that are determined to kill any and every American that they can (regardless if they are Democrat or Republican). After 9/11, no one knew how many more impending attacks there were.

I dont defend "aggressive interrogation", and wouldnt be able to accept it...which is why there are certain things I dont need to know or want to know. Releasing these memos was a mistake. The majority of the American public could not accept such tactics, yet they want the country to keep their families and fellow countrymen safe in an insane world.

...Many people like steak, but dont want to know how it gets to the plate.

The release of these memos only confirmed what most of us already knew. This information had leaked out years ago.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866

[ScipioCowboy]

From a purely pragmatic standpoint, isn't information obtained from torture unreliable? As I understand it, the person being tortured eventually begins telling the torturer what he wants to hear.

[lewpac]

Who care's?

I'm all for "torture for the sake of torture" anyway.

Whether or not we get information or not, who care's? They're animals anyway deserving of the lowest form of human excrement. I'm all for torture if for no other reason than the simple enjoyment and satisfaction of watching these maggots suffer.

What the hell. That's what they're all about. Let them eat their own medicine.
It's time this country got back to "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" mentality, instead of tippy-toeing around our enemies hurt feelings or being uncomfortable.

What Obama is doing is nothing short of treason IMO. Allowing our sworn enemies, who have already declared that "death to America" is their Jihad, to be privy to our agenda and ways is treason. Sorry, but enough is enough. Bowing and shaking hands and accepting gifts and sitting at the table with those who desire nothing but our demise..............that's "Benedict Arnold" stuff to me.................

[SuspectCorner]

Who care's?

I'm all for "torture for the sake of torture" anyway.

Whether or not we get information or not, who care's? They're animals anyway deserving of the lowest form of human excrement. I'm all for torture if for no other reason than the simple enjoyment and satisfaction of watching these maggots suffer.

What the hell. That's what they're all about. Let them eat their own medicine.
It's time this country got back to "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" mentality, instead of tippy-toeing around our enemies hurt feelings or being uncomfortable.

What Obama is doing is nothing short of treason IMO. Allowing our sworn enemies, who have already declared that "death to America" is their Jihad, to be privy to our agenda and ways is treason. Sorry, but enough is enough. Bowing and shaking hands and accepting gifts and sitting at the table with those who desire nothing but our demise..............that's "Benedict Arnold" stuff to me.................



http://www.ajc.com/shared-blogs/ajc/luckovich/media/mike0622.gif

[Beast_from_East]

From a purely pragmatic standpoint, isn't information obtained from torture unreliable? As I understand it, the person being tortured eventually begins telling the torturer what he wants to hear.

Thats the most sound and logical argument against torture, the information obtained is highly unreliable.

John McCain said during the campaign that when he was tortured for information on his squad leaders or something like that, he told the Viet Cong the starting lineup for the Packers or maybe it was the Steelers, I cant remember exactly.

McCain said that the Viet Cong thought the info was legit since they didnt know jack about NFL players and stopped torturing him.


So doesnt this kinda prove the point that info gained from torture is mostly made up crap???

[ConcordCowboy]

I didn't know this.



'Perfect storm of ignorance'

The top officials he briefed did not learn that waterboarding had been prosecuted by the United States in war-crimes trials after World War II and was a well-documented favorite of despotic governments since the Spanish Inquisition; one waterboard used under Pol Pot was even on display at the genocide museum in Cambodia.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30338039

[ConcordCowboy]

Nice...

They did not know that some veteran trainers from the SERE program itself had warned in internal memorandums that, morality aside, the methods were ineffective. Nor were most of the officials aware that the former military psychologist who played a central role in persuading C.I.A. officials to use the harsh methods had never conducted a real interrogation, or that the Justice Department lawyer most responsible for declaring the methods legal had idiosyncratic ideas that even the Bush Justice Department would later renounce.

The process was "a perfect storm of ignorance and enthusiasm," a former C.I.A. official said.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30338039

[Jarv]

http://www.ajc.com/shared-blogs/ajc/luckovich/media/mike0622.gif

If someone had kidnapped someone in your family, say a son or daughter. Then this kidnapper buried them alive and they had 7 hours of oxygen left before they died a slow and painful death, say that they were wired for sound in their hidden location saying "Daddy, help me".

You have this kidnapper tied up in your kitchen and were listening to your child begging for you to help them, but you have this one problem...You won't go to the extreme to save your child.

Now close your eyes and pretend its not your child, but someone elses, although this shouldn't change your view of this either, correct ?

In both cases you believe this kidnapper should have the right to remain silent and the right to console and will wait for a fair trial.

7 hours later your child is dead.

You have the moral high ground, by the way the kidnapper got off on a legal loophole.

Have a good day Suspect.

[Jordan55]

Nice...

They did not know that some veteran trainers from the SERE program itself had warned in internal memorandums that, morality aside, the methods were ineffective. Nor were most of the officials aware that the former military psychologist who played a central role in persuading C.I.A. officials to use the harsh methods had never conducted a real interrogation, or that the Justice Department lawyer most responsible for declaring the methods legal had idiosyncratic ideas that even the Bush Justice Department would later renounce.

The process was "a perfect storm of ignorance and enthusiasm," a former C.I.A. official said.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30338039

Nice Source Concord, I give it alot of credence, Here's the truth, The Obama administration's top intelligence official privately told employees last week that "high value information" was obtained in interrogations that included harsh techniques approved by former President George W. Bush.

[Doomsday101]

Revisionist claptrap!

Provide any evidence of our country engaging in a policy of the systemic torture of prisoners-detainees prior to the George W Bush administration. You will not - because such a program is unprecedented in our history. This was a top-down assault on a signature American principle that had held for over two centuries - "the US does NOT torture."

And the combined rationalizations of all of the flag-draped Jack Bauer-wannabes here and elsewhere add up to pile of excrement when compared to that principle.

After the Spanish-American War of 1898
After the Spanish American War of 1898 in the Philippines, the US Army used waterboarding which was called the "water cure" at the time. Reports of "cruelties" from soldiers stationed in the Philippines led to Senate Hearings on US activity in the Philippines.

Testimony described the waterboarding of Tobeniano Ealdama "while supervised by …Captain/Major Edwin F. Glenn (Glenn Highway)."[cite this quote]

Elihu Root, United States Secretary of War, ordered a court martial for Glenn in April 1902."[60] During the trial, Glenn "maintained that the torture of Ealdama was 'a legitimate exercise of force under the laws of war.'"[61]

Though some reports seem to confuse Ealdama with Glenn,[62] he was found guilty and "sentenced to a one-month suspension and a fifty-dollar fine," the leniency of the sentence due to the "circumstances" presented at the trial.[61]

President Theodore Roosevelt privately rationalized the instances of "mild torture, the water cure" but publicly called for efforts to "prevent the occurrence of all such acts in the future." In that effort, he ordered the court-martial of General Jacob H. Smith on the island of Samar, "where some of the worst abuses had occurred." When the court-martial found only that he had acted with excessive zeal, Roosevelt disregarded the verdict and had the General dismissed from the Army.[63]

Roosevelt soon declared victory in the Philippines, and the public lost interest in "what had, only months earlier, been alarming revelations."[61]


World War II
During World War II both Japanese troops, especially the Kempeitai, and the officers of the Gestapo,[64] the German secret police, used waterboarding as a method of torture.[65] During the Japanese occupation of Singapore the Double Tenth Incident occurred. This included waterboarding, by the method of binding or holding down the victim on his back, placing a cloth over his mouth and nose, and pouring water onto the cloth. In this version, interrogation continued during the torture, with the interrogators beating the victim if he did not reply and the victim swallowing water if he opened his mouth to answer or breathe. When the victim could ingest no more water, the interrogators would beat or jump on his distended stomach.[66][67][68]

Chase J. Nielsen, one of the U.S. airmen who flew in the Doolittle raid following the attack on Pearl Harbor, was subjected to waterboarding by his Japanese captors.[69] At their trial for war crimes following the war, he testified "Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let up until I'd get my breath, then they'd start over again… I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death."[29]


Algerian War
The technique was also used during the Algerian War (1954-1962). The French journalist Henri Alleg, who was subjected to waterboarding by French paratroopers in Algeria in 1957,[70] is one of only a few people to have described in writing the first-hand experience of being waterboarded. His book The Question, published in 1958 with a preface by Jean-Paul Sartre subsequently banned in France until the end of the Algerian War in 1962,[citation needed] discusses the experience of being strapped to a plank, having his head wrapped in cloth and positioned beneath a running tap:

The rag was soaked rapidly. Water flowed everywhere: in my mouth, in my nose, all over my face. But for a while I could still breathe in some small gulps of air. I tried, by contracting my throat, to take in as little water as possible and to resist suffocation by keeping air in my lungs for as long as I could. But I couldn't hold on for more than a few moments. I had the impression of drowning, and a terrible agony, that of death itself, took possession of me. In spite of myself, all the muscles of my body struggled uselessly to save me from suffocation. In spite of myself, the fingers of both my hands shook uncontrollably. "That's it! He's going to talk", said a voice.

The water stopped running and they took away the rag. I was able to breathe. In the gloom, I saw the lieutenants and the captain, who, with a cigarette between his lips, was hitting my stomach with his fist to make me throw out the water I had swallowed.[70][71]

Alleg stated that he had not broken under his ordeal of being waterboarded.[72] Alleg has stated that the incidence of "accidental" death of prisoners being subjected to waterboarding in Algeria was "very frequent".[6]


Vietnam War
Waterboarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in the Vietnam War.[73] On January 21, 1968, The Washington Post published a controversial photograph of two U.S soldiers and one South Vietnamese soldier participating in the waterboarding of a North Vietnamese POW near Da Nang.[74] The article described the practice as "fairly common".[74] The photograph led to the soldier being court-martialled by a U.S. military court within one month of its publication, and he was discharged from the army.[73][75] Another waterboarding photograph of the same scene is also exhibited in the War Remnants Museum in Ho Chi Minh City.[76]



U.S. Military survival training
Main article: SERE
All special operations units in all branches of the U.S. military employ the use of waterboarding as part of survival school (SERE) training, to psychologically prepare soldiers for the eventuality of being captured by the enemy forces.[2]

many of the interrogation methods used in SERE training seem to have been applied at Guantánamo

[iceberg]

:hammer:

But he will not admit that ..... takes away his chance to blame "evil conservatives"

i totally get zrin the desire to be better than this. but in here we can't even be "better than them" when it comes to the left vs. the right. they insulted my guy, i'll insult their guy.

human nature.

you behead my guy, i'll waterboard your guy till i can find out what i need to know to stop the beheadings.

every action usually has an equal and/or opposite reaction. we do it in here every single day and it's old as hell and just as irritating. but we seem to have this primal desire to get even, even though we know that's only likely to cause another "get even" on the other side?

if we can't end the stupidity in a forum, how can we expect mankind to rise up and above what we can't do individually?

we can't.

this doesn't make it right. this doesn't justify the actions. it only explains them to better understand them because understanding the problems fully are the 1st step towards resolving them.

i don't think anyone saying "we must be better than this!" would not pour water on a terrorists head if a member of their family was about to be killed on the internet. but if people like suspect can say even if their own childs family was at stake they'd still not torture in any shape form or fashion, then i'll listen more carefully because it's by example, not words, leadership is shown.

[iceberg]

Yes, and if you read back my response to the whole thing is "I'm fundamentally against torture, so no government agency or branch should be given free reign to exercise as they see fit. But I do see it as sometimes necessary."

I didn't even say that I disagreed with Bush/Cheney's particular practice of torture, but I do think it should become a matter of public record as soon as is practical. It shouldn't be something practiced in the darkness and out of the public eye, because that's not what our country is based on.

so if we put torture on pay per view, is that better?

[Jordan55]

so if we put torture on pay per view, is that better?

How much and where do I sign up? Is it more for the different techniques?:)

[ConcordCowboy]

Nice Source Concord, I give it alot of credence, Here's the truth, The Obama administration's top intelligence official privately told employees last week that "high value information" was obtained in interrogations that included harsh techniques approved by former President George W. Bush.


Nice Source Jordan...I give it even more credence than mine.

By the way where is that link?

:p:

[iceberg]

How much and where do I sign up? Is it more for the different techniques?:)

well you gotta start off slow. we'll do some trial runs with a schoolyard bully pulling the hair of the girls in front of him and taking away the milk money of the weak.

then we'll have a follow up analysis from all the major networks from all sides to give the views of how the bully is misunderstood and the girls were likely asking for it anyway. the weak will be provided protection from the government and supplied with government cheese as a milk suppliment and the bully condemned.

from there we'll move into a history of torture through all cultures and some of the more popular devices. this is where many will freak out to find out that an "iron maiden" is not just a metal band and resistance will set in because you're now attacking modern metal culture.

this however is negative controversy. that sells. period. so we'll have a gay rights group come forward and start beating up old ladies who are against gay marriages because that's the way to get things done and well top it off with a WWE wrestlemania event that will pit 3 gay guys against a tag team of a 70 year old religious grandmother who's against them and the milk suppliment weakling from the schoolyard so we can keep him as the running joke in the series.

2 gay guys will go down in the center ring and i don't mean from the fighting. this will spawn the decency act to come forward and condem the actions and demand equal time in the ring where they will tie the gays up and flog them in public.

here is where we'll see how some torture is not only accepted, but wanted, needed and gladly paid for and the ratings now shoot through the roof as we've captured the essence of how to handle our anger.

through sex and violence and the best way to mix it all together.

from there will bring in the most noted waterboarding "victims" and have them run consecutive sets on 60 minutes explaining how the torture altered their life and gives them nightmares and the extreme liberals will admonish bush over and over again till we get bush doubles to come into the WWE ring and duke it out with the waterboarding "victims" head to head.

the right will counter by showing vides of the lives of the familes left behind from the public executions and acts of violence from the "victims" of waterboarding and 2 contestants will be pulled from the families to join bush in a double elimination match where the loser will be waterboarded just before the main event.

this is a whole and complete series where we must do our due diligence and start off slowly to show how innocent actions can later be the main event at WWE.

it won't be pretty.

[Jordan55]

Nice Source Jordan...I give it even more credence than mine.

By the way where is that link?

:p:

It should be on every news source available, except MSNBC or KOS,
But I will be glad to enlighten you. Try the New York Times

President Obama’s national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.
“High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,” Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday.
Admiral Blair sent his memo on the same day the administration publicly released secret Bush administration legal memos authorizing the use of interrogation methods that the Obama White House has deemed to be illegal torture. Among other things, the Bush administration memos revealed that two captured Qaeda operatives were subjected to a form of near-drowning known as waterboarding a total of 266 times

[Jordan55]

Well since I have already been label as a terrorist for attending the Tea Party protests, I want go for the gusto so sign me! I'll supply the refreshments! I have an old drill for those hard to reach cavities, dental care is a must!:eek: It's my patriotic duty, someone has to do it.

well you gotta start off slow. we'll do some trial runs with a schoolyard bully pulling the hair of the girls in front of him and taking away the milk money of the weak.

then we'll have a follow up analysis from all the major networks from all sides to give the views of how the bully is misunderstood and the girls were likely asking for it anyway. the weak will be provided protection from the government and supplied with government cheese as a milk suppliment and the bully condemned.

from there we'll move into a history of torture through all cultures and some of the more popular devices. this is where many will freak out to find out that an "iron maiden" is not just a metal band and resistance will set in because you're now attacking modern metal culture.

this however is negative controversy. that sells. period. so we'll have a gay rights group come forward and start beating up old ladies who are against gay marriages because that's the way to get things done and well top it off with a WWE wrestlemania event that will pit 3 gay guys against a tag team of a 70 year old religious grandmother who's against them and the milk suppliment weakling from the schoolyard so we can keep him as the running joke in the series.

2 gay guys will go down in the center ring and i don't mean from the fighting. this will spawn the decency act to come forward and condem the actions and demand equal time in the ring where they will tie the gays up and flog them in public.

here is where we'll see how some torture is not only accepted, but wanted, needed and gladly paid for and the ratings now shoot through the roof as we've captured the essence of how to handle our anger.

through sex and violence and the best way to mix it all together.

from there will bring in the most noted waterboarding "victims" and have them run consecutive sets on 60 minutes explaining how the torture altered their life and gives them nightmares and the extreme liberals will admonish bush over and over again till we get bush doubles to come into the WWE ring and duke it out with the waterboarding "victims" head to head.

the right will counter by showing vides of the lives of the familes left behind from the public executions and acts of violence from the "victims" of waterboarding and 2 contestants will be pulled from the families to join bush in a double elimination match where the loser will be waterboarded just before the main event.

this is a whole and complete series where we must do our due diligence and start off slowly to show how innocent actions can later be the main event at WWE.

it won't be pretty.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Revisionist claptrap!

Provide any evidence of our country engaging in a policy of the systemic torture of prisoners-detainees prior to the George W Bush administration. You will not - because such a program is unprecedented in our history. This was a top-down assault on a signature American principle that had held for over two centuries - "the US does NOT torture."

And the combined rationalizations of all of the flag-draped Jack Bauer-wannabes here and elsewhere add up to pile of excrement when compared to that principle.


If you choose to believe that we have not engaged in this manner of itelligence gathering, that is of course your affair. I would hope that you are not as naive as all of that. We have tortured prisoners since our militaries earliest inceptions. I think it's a joke that you hear people trot out the orders given by President Washington in reference to the English at Yorktown and then try and point to that as if to say, "See! We don't do that." However, everybody conveniently forgets that we tortured countless Indians, Mexicans, French and Slaves. To me, waterboarding isn't torture but I recognize that many do not share this opinion. So be it. It is a very mild form, if at all, IMO. You ask me to prove it. You would like me to spend hours searching the web for detailed documentation when all you really have to do is read books of the various periods to see I am right. You ask me to produce information that is not public to the general populous. To what end? If I did, it would only prove what everybody already knows and you would still believe it to be wrong, would you not?

Before we can have any real discussion on the subject, we at least have to acknowledge that this is not something that started with GW. It is going on today under our current President and it has gone on since the beginning of our Nation. That's just a statement of fact. In addition, I will tell you that much more severe interrogation methods have been used as well.

[ConcordCowboy]

It should be on every news source available, except MSNBC or KOS,

But I will be glad to enlighten you. Try the New York Times

President Obama’s national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.
“High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,” Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday.
Admiral Blair sent his memo on the same day the administration publicly released secret Bush administration legal memos authorizing the use of interrogation methods that the Obama White House has deemed to be illegal torture. Among other things, the Bush administration memos revealed that two captured Qaeda operatives were subjected to a form of near-drowning known as waterboarding a total of 266 times

Obviously this man is full of it and anything he says has now been discredited...based on the fact that this article is from MSNBC.

:rolleyes:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30335592/

And just because it might have worked on some (don't remember anyone saying it didn't)...doesn't mean that others didn't give BS intel when waterboarded.

Also...doesn't make it right.

"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,” Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. “The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

[Doomsday101]

Obviously this man is full of it and anything he says has now been discredited...based on the fact that this article is from MSNBC.

:rolleyes:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30335592/

And just because it might have worked on some (don't remember anyone saying it didn't)...doesn't mean that others didn't give BS intel when waterboarded.

Also...doesn't make it right.

"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,” Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. “The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

And those gathering the Intel normally have other part of the information they know to be true to help distinguish between what is BS and what has validity. They also have an ideal where an individual is ranked within these organization they know the foot soldiers from upper member of the terrorist group

[Cajuncowboy]

Obviously this man is full of it and anything he says has now been discredited...based on the fact that this article is from MSNBC.

:rolleyes:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30335592/

And just because it might have worked on some (don't remember anyone saying it didn't)...doesn't mean that others didn't give BS intel when waterboarded.

Also...doesn't make it right.

"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,” Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. “The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

LOL! So, there is no way of knowing if the info could have been obtained any other way. But yet, the info WAS obtained in THIS way. We KNOW this worked.

See the difference between Americans who care about security and those who only care about image is stark.

And the truth is, this story is just full of crap.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/04/22/hayden-chain-interrogations-yielded-bulk-intelligence-knowledge/

We KNOW that the information we got stopped Jose Padilla. So even if we saved one American life, then it was worth water-boarding these bums.

[Jordan55]

[QUOTE=ConcordCowboy;2740845]Obviously this man is full of it and anything he says has now been discredited...based on the fact that this article is from MSNBC.

:rolleyes:

Please Concord as if your Obama network doesn't have an agenda, as a true news agecy it really has no credit, but I'm not surprised your watching it, just don't overdose on it. I hope that the stimulus package is working for the folks in Ohio, because it hasn't done sheet for the folks in Florida.:rolleyes:

I'm sure your aware of the fact that Cheney is pushing to have all of the documentation released on the interrogations, think what you want about the man, but he doesn't play the fool!

[ConcordCowboy]

And those gathering the Intel normally have other part of the information they know to be true to help distinguish between what is BS and what has validity. They also have an ideal where an individual is ranked within these organization they know the foot soldiers from upper member of the terrorist group

You don't know that for sure...they could have been led off in the wrong direction and they don't even know it.

Or will never know it.

[ConcordCowboy]

LOL! So, there is no way of knowing if the info could have been obtained any other way. But yet, the info WAS obtained in THIS way. We KNOW this worked.

See the difference between Americans who care about security and those who only care about image is stark.

And the truth is, this story is just full of crap.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/04/22/hayden-chain-interrogations-yielded-bulk-intelligence-knowledge/

We KNOW that the information we got stopped Jose Padilla. So even if we saved one American life, then it was worth water-boarding these bums.


“That policy disagreement is whether or not you can uphold the values in which this country was founded at the same time that you protect the citizens that live in that country.”

[Doomsday101]

You don't know that for sure...they could have been led off in the wrong direction and they don't even know it.

Or will never know it.

I know people who are trained in interrogation know a lot more about what they are doing than some media hack does or some politician who can't even remember how to pay his taxes. Yes these people understand what they are doing they understand based on other information when they are being handed BS and have a very good clue as to who they are dealing with from the foot soldier who has little info to those in higher level of these organization who know allot more.

[ConcordCowboy]

:rolleyes:

Please Concord as if your Obama network doesn't have an agenda it really has no credit, but I'm not surprised your watching it, just don't overdose on it. I hope that stimulus package is working for the folks in Ohio, because it hasn't done sheet for the folks in Florida.:rolleyes:

Did I ever say MSNBC isn't biased?

EVER?

[ConcordCowboy]

I know people who are trained in interrogation know a lot more about what they are doing than some media hack does or some politician who can't even remember how to pay his taxes. Yes these people understand what they are doing they understand based on other information when they are being handed BS and have a very good clue as to who they are dealing with from the foot soldier who has little info to those in higher level of these organization who know allot more.

Fact is you don't know for sure that they haven't been led off in the wrong direction or not.

That could NEVER be proven.

[Sasquatch]

Very happy these incompetents have been ousted.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22detain.html?_r=1&ref=politics

[Jordan55]

Very happy these incompetents have been ousted.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22detain.html?_r=1&ref=politics

How soon before the Times goes out of Business? I'm sure the new techniques will be quite effective in gaining intelligence in the future.

[ConcordCowboy]

'Perfect storm of ignorance'

The top officials he briefed did not learn that waterboarding had been prosecuted by the United States in war-crimes trials after World War II and was a well-documented favorite of despotic governments since the Spanish Inquisition; one waterboard used under Pol Pot was even on display at the genocide museum in Cambodia.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30338039

Very happy these incompetents have been ousted.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22detain.html?_r=1&ref=politics

.....

[Jordan55]

Did I ever say MSNBC isn't biased?

EVER?

Then why use their news as fact? Since you know they have a bias agenda was my point.:confused:

[Sasquatch]

.....

Great minds ...

[ConcordCowboy]

Great minds ...

....:p:

[ConcordCowboy]

Then why use there news as fact? Since you know they have a bias agenda was my point.:confused:

First just because they may like Obama doesn't mean that they can't report news when it happens.

Good Lord.

What I can't believe anything from Fox just because they lean right?

Ridiculous.

And second the article that I posted from MSNBC that you said nice source?

That was from the NY Times.

[Doomsday101]

Fact is you don't know for sure that they haven't been led off in the wrong direction or not.

That could NEVER be proven.

Yeah they are just shooting in the drak with no clue as to events around the world on the players who they seem to have a lot of info on when they take over operation within these terrorist groups. I think they understand a bit more about what they do than you do and yes I think they have a better clue as to when they are being jerked around and when things that match up with other intel that do have.

[Cajuncowboy]

Very happy these incompetents have been ousted.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22detain.html?_r=1&ref=politics


:lmao:

Incompetents??? These incompetents just proved that they were able to extract information from the bad guys and keep Americans safe.

Incompetents.

If you and Concord think you have great minds, then this explains sooooooo many of your posts.

[Cajuncowboy]

Yeah they are just shooting in the drak with no clue as to events around the world on the players who they seem to have a lot of info on when they take over operation within these terrorist groups. I think they understand a bit more about what they do than you do and yes I think they have a better clue as to when they are being jerked around and when things that match up with other intel that do have.

These guys just spout without any knowledge. They look at PMSNBC as their source and run with it. They don't know what they are talking about. I doubt they have ever even been in the military.

[ConcordCowboy]

Yeah they are just shooting in the drak with no clue as to events around the world on the players who they seem to have a lot of info on when they take over operation within these terrorist groups. I think they understand a bit more about what they do than you do and yes I think they have a better clue as to when they are being jerked around and when things that match up with other intel that do have.

Like I said...can't be proven.

Lord knows our Intelligence Agencies could never be wrong.

[ConcordCowboy]

If you and Concord think you have great minds, then this explains sooooooo many of your posts.



Or maybe why you can't understand them.

[Jordan55]

Hillary: I don’t consider Cheney a reliable source on “torture

Why would she? Cheney claims that enhanced interrogation works when all right-thinking people know that it doesn’t, except of course for Obama’s own intelligence chief. Ed has been all over the Dennis Blair story today but let me add my two cents in calling it a nuclear bombshell in how it incinerates the left’s bad-faith “torture” calculus — or rather, non-calculus. They’re unwilling to concede that there’s any moral choice to be made here because, when push comes to shove, they’re unwilling to say flatly that they’d risk American lives so that Abu Zubaydah doesn’t have to spend time in a box with a caterpillar or whatever. That’s why the Times buried the Blair story today and that’s why Hillary’s lip service about getting everything out in the open, in reply to a question about Cheney claiming that abuses were corrected, is so stunningly disingenuous. The very last thing The One wants is getting everything out in the open about how waterboarding or belly slaps prevented attacks because that means an honest debate on the subject, which in turn leaves him caught between the nutroots and a whole lot of swing voters. The beauty of the Blair story is that, for the very first time, they’ve got someone saying torture works whom they can’t dismiss as “unreliable.” Like I say, nuclear bombshell.

[Jordan55]

Eric Holder spoke out on the interrogation of unlawful combatants in 2002.

“One of the things we clearly want to do with these prisoners is to have an ability to interrogate them and find out what their future plans might be, where other cells are located; under the Geneva Convention that you are really limited in the amount of information that you can elicit from people.

“It seems to me that given the way in which they have conducted themselves, however, that they are not, in fact, people entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention. They are not prisoners of war. If, for instance, Mohamed Atta had survived the attack on the World Trade Center, would we now be calling him a prisoner of war? I think not. Should Zacarias Moussaoui be called a prisoner of war? Again, I think not.”

–Eric Holder, CNN interview, January 2002

[Jordan55]

The Obama administration's chief intelligence officer has told the White House that harsh interrogations of suspected al-Qaeda officials produced "valuable" information, but he added that it is impossible to tell whether the same intelligence leads might have been obtained using less controversial methods.

I guess only new attack will tell, but these clowns won't get it till it's to late.

[iceberg]

Or maybe why you can't understand them.

just because no one understands you doesn't make you the intelligent one.

[ConcordCowboy]

just because no one understands you doesn't make you the intelligent one.

Or maybe it does.

[iceberg]

You don't know that for sure...they could have been led off in the wrong direction and they don't even know it.

Or will never know it.

you're absolutely right.

and if you use more peaceful methods, you'll never know either.

you act as if there's a sure fire way to do this so you can dog on the way YOU don't like.

it's a war they started. i have no sympathy for them and even less who think we're the bad guys because we go to extremes to stop the internet beheadings of the fanatics.

if those people hate us for torture, they hate us anyway. not sure what type of moral victory is being pulled from the world of public opinion here.

[ConcordCowboy]

you're absolutely right.

and if you use more peaceful methods, you'll never know either.

you act as if there's a sure fire way to do this so you can dog on the way YOU don't like.

it's a war they started. i have no sympathy for them and even less who think we're the bad guys because we go to extremes to stop the internet beheadings of the fanatics.

if those people hate us for torture, they hate us anyway. not sure what type of moral victory is being pulled from the world of public opinion here.


You know where I stand.

[trickblue]

Eric Holder spoke out on the interrogation of unlawful combatants in 2002.

“One of the things we clearly want to do with these prisoners is to have an ability to interrogate them and find out what their future plans might be, where other cells are located; under the Geneva Convention that you are really limited in the amount of information that you can elicit from people.

“It seems to me that given the way in which they have conducted themselves, however, that they are not, in fact, people entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention. They are not prisoners of war. If, for instance, Mohamed Atta had survived the attack on the World Trade Center, would we now be calling him a prisoner of war? I think not. Should Zacarias Moussaoui be called a prisoner of war? Again, I think not.”

–Eric Holder, CNN interview, January 2002

oops...

[iceberg]

You know where I stand.

yea, bush sucks.

like i said, show me people who hate us because of this who didn't hate us before. random statements like "we hurt ourselves in front of the world today" are designed for drama and talking points of those against torture. but if this is true, show me the links and evidence, not the rhetoric.

i wants facts to back up stupid statements.

thats' where i stand.

[Cajuncowboy]

oops...

:bow:

Nice find.

[Jordan55]

Or maybe it does.

As long as you believe it, I guess is what counts and of course all intellectuals watch MSNBC :lmao2:

[Cajuncowboy]

You know where I stand.

Yep. In the middle of the road getting run over by the fact truck.

[ConcordCowboy]

yea, bush sucks.

like i said, show me people who hate us because of this who didn't hate us before. random statements like "we hurt ourselves in front of the world today" are designed for drama and talking points of those against torture. but if this is true, show me the links and evidence, not the rhetoric.

i wants facts to back up stupid statements.

thats' where i stand.

Look...Dooms was saying to me that there was no way that we could have been led in the wrong direction by one of these guys...and I said there is NO WAY to Prove that and there isn't.

That's all.

Where I stand is that the U.S should not torture people.

But like I said earlier I would make an exception for the two they did it to and Bin-Laden.

They are Special.

[ConcordCowboy]

Yep. In the middle of the road getting run over by the fact truck.

A fact truck?

Seems like you could use being hit by one of those.

[ConcordCowboy]

As long as you believe it, I guess is what counts and of course all intellectuals watch MSNBC :lmao2:

MSNBC again?

Weak.

[Jordan55]

:bow:

Nice find.

It's amazing how they change the tune to suit public opinion so as enhance their political gains and the power they so desperately seek, and yet these mice continue to follow these pied pipers even when they are called out on their changing rhetoric:mad:

[Jordan55]

MSNBC again?

Weak.

Still waiting for that tingle ain't yeah, Come on Concord, we know your not watching Fox, So what main stream media are you watching if it's not MSNBC?:war:

[ABQCOWBOY]

Putting aside the moral issues associated with torture, I don't think the results can be questioned. Torture does work. You can get people to say anything in order to get somebody to stop the torture but the cumulative effect of the whole process is extremely effective. When a person gets to the point of breaking, there mind is not going to stick to what they have said in future sessions. They will deviate and it's through this process that information is screened for validity. Not only is it screened but it is also compared to information gained from other sources.

It's not what you see in the moves. It's not three guys in wife beaters with there black sports coats hung over chairs and there knuckles bloodied, pouring water down a guys throat. There is aPhysical and psychological process involved that is effective over time. If done properly, given enough time, it will break you.

[ConcordCowboy]

Still waiting for that tingle ain't yeah, Come on Concord, we know your not watching Fox, So what main stream media are you watching if it's not MSNBC?:war:

Psst...Fox and MSNBC aren't the only way to get news.

CNN...ABC...CBS...NBC...any number of internet articles from who knows how many sites...newspapers...on and on.

And I turn Fox on all the time...very little of it is news time though. :p:

[Jordan55]

Psst...Fox and MSNBC aren't the only way to get news.

CNN...ABC...CBS...NBC...any number of internet articles from who knows how many sites...newspapers...on and on.

And I turn Fox on all the time...very little of it is news time though. :p:

So in incognito your really a Sean Hannity fan, the cat's out of the bag:)

[iceberg]

Look...Dooms was saying to me that there was no way that we could have been led in the wrong direction by one of these guys...and I said there is NO WAY to Prove that and there isn't.

That's all.

Where I stand is that the U.S should not torture people.

But like I said earlier I would make an exception for the two they did it to and Bin-Laden.

They are Special.

you are right - i did jump in the middle then - my bad and i am pretty much in line with your stance.

torture or not you can't totally trust what they say. i hope i never have to make the call myself however. if i were emotionally tied to it, i'd likely get medieval on the dude.

then again - i may just walk away and go find another way to try and help. the violence has to end sooner or later.

[SuspectCorner]

Putting aside the moral issues associated with torture, I don't think the results can be questioned. Torture does work. You can get people to say anything in order to get somebody to stop the torture but the cumulative effect of the whole process is extremely effective. When a person gets to the point of breaking, there mind is not going to stick to what they have said in future sessions. They will deviate and it's through this process that information is screened for validity. Not only is it screened but it is also compared to information gained from other sources.

It's not what you see in the moves. It's not three guys in wife beaters with there black sports coats hung over chairs and there knuckles bloodied, pouring water down a guys throat. There is aPhysical and psychological process involved that is effective over time. If done properly, given enough time, it will break you.

Thanks for weighing in again - O'Brien. In this conversation you have acted as your strongest adversary. Have you gotten that yet?

[Cajuncowboy]

A fact truck?

Seems like you could use being hit by one of those.

Why? I have a ton of facts that support my positions. And you just got owned in this thread.

[MetalHead]

Why? I have a ton of facts that support my positions. And you just got owned in this thread.

In this thread only?
This Concord Character is Mr Drive by.
He posts,then runs away....he has no principles.
I remember when I was banned for 3 days,only then he took his time to reply to me...kicking me while I was down.I could not answer.
Surprise!..the ban was not permanent.

At least other left wingers here show up to the brawl...not Concord.
Concord is a text book coward.

[SuspectCorner]

Why? I have a ton of facts that support my positions. And you just got owned in this thread.

Before you go patting a hole through your own back, you might wanna review this thread and notice that most significant post you put up was this flimsy offering:

LOL! So, there is no way of knowing if the info could have been obtained any other way. But yet, the info WAS obtained in THIS way. We KNOW this worked.

See the difference between Americans who care about security and those who only care about image is stark.

And the truth is, this story is just full of crap.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/firs...nce-knowledge/

We KNOW that the information we got stopped Jose Padilla. So even if we saved one American life, then it was worth water-boarding these bums.

First, we don't have solid evidence that torture produced any significant actionable intelligence outside of the unsubstantiated claims made by those parties either condoning or conducting this blight upon our country's good name. To date, they have produced NOTHING to support their claims.

Secondly, our "image" (your words, not mine) as a principled country that doesn't torture - has likely contributed more to our national security than you will ever appreciate.

And lastly, your support of torture doesn't seem to jibe with the moralistic tenor you take on so many of your posts concerning other topics - nor the spiritual teachings of the one you so vociferously claim to follow.

And the rest of your contributions to this thread? They could have just as easily been made by burm.

Now tell me about this new system of weights and measurements that has your "facts" estimated at a ton.

Oh, one other thing. Torture contributed to stopping the mighty Jose Padilla? This is laughable. The guy was an idiot expatriate and bit player - any claims of a "dirty bomb" plot had panned out to zilch and the last I heard - judges were refusing to dimiss his suit against John Yoo for having been tortured. Heckuva reference there, cajun. :D

[ZB9]

I know everyone wants to take that moral high ground...but perhaps we should poll people that worked in "Library Tower" in LA during that time, and see what they think of waterboarding these 3 Jihadists

[SuspectCorner]

I know everyone wants to take that moral high ground...but perhaps we should poll people that worked in "Library Tower" in LA during that time, and see what they think of waterboarding these 3 Jihadists

http://articles.latimes.com/p/2005/oct/08/nation/na-terror8

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/08/16/padilla/index.html

[Jordan55]

Suspect for what it's worth, I'll repost this just to show you that even the current Attorney General was supportive of the interroration techniques since we had no clue as to how Al-Queda operated, you know because of a past Democratic President who didn't realize the seriousness of the threat, as you apparently still don't comprehend, so stick to your BS moral high ground and when the facts comes out as to the intelligence gained, we will all be waiting for an admission of your thick-headedness.

Eric Holder spoke out on the interrogation of unlawful combatants in 2002.

“One of the things we clearly want to do with these prisoners is to have an ability to interrogate them and find out what their future plans might be, where other cells are located; under the Geneva Convention that you are really limited in the amount of information that you can elicit from people.

“It seems to me that given the way in which they have conducted themselves, however, that they are not, in fact, people entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention. They are not prisoners of war. If, for instance, Mohamed Atta had survived the attack on the World Trade Center, would we now be calling him a prisoner of war? I think not. Should Zacarias Moussaoui be called a prisoner of war? Again, I think not.”

–Eric Holder, CNN interview, January 2002

[Cajuncowboy]

Before you go patting a hole through your own back, you might wanna review this thread and notice that most significant post you put up was this flimsy offering:

LOL! So, there is no way of knowing if the info could have been obtained any other way. But yet, the info WAS obtained in THIS way. We KNOW this worked.

I'll take the word of someone who was actually there over some know nothing hack on a forum who posts articles from salon.com, thank you very much.

See the difference between Americans who care about security and those who only care about image is stark.

And the truth is, this story is just full of crap.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/firs...nce-knowledge/

We KNOW that the information we got stopped Jose Padilla. So even if we saved one American life, then it was worth water-boarding these bums.


I'll take the word of someone who was actually there over some know nothing hack on a forum who posts articles from salon.com, thank you very much. I posted statements from people who were there. Facts as they are known. You posted assumptions from dubious sources at best.

First, we don't have solid evidence that torture produced any significant actionable intelligence outside of the unsubstantiated claims made by those parties either condoning or conducting this blight upon our country's good name. To date, they have produced NOTHING to support their claims.[QUOTE]

Have we been attacked since 9/11? Is that enough proof to you? Or do you think we should have wined and dined these terrorists and that would have produced the evidence to stop the Buffalo plot? Or the one to blow up the bridge in NY? Or any of the other ones we don't know about?

No, you would prefer to not harm these pathetic morons than to protect innocent Americans. Shame on you.

[QUOTE=SuspectCorner;2741486]Secondly, our "image" (your words, not mine) as a principled country that doesn't torture - has likely contributed more to our national security than you will ever appreciate.

Really? Seems 9/11 happened prior to all of this. Hmmm, nice revisionist history you have going there.

And lastly, your support of torture doesn't seem to jibe with the moralistic tenor you take on so many of your posts concerning other topics - nor the spiritual teachings of the one you so vociferously claim to follow.

Show where I EVER said I was ? Because I am not perfect. But nice way to take a backhanded shot at my faith. Proves what kind of person you really are. Not that we didn't know already.

And the rest of your contributions to this thread? They could have just as easily been made by burm.

Now tell me about this new system of weights and measurements that has your "facts" estimated at a ton.

Just because you don't accept them doesn't make them wrong. Kinda like the Global Warming crowd. No matter the facts against it, you just change the game to fit your BS.

Oh, one other thing. Torture contributed to stopping the mighty Jose Padilla? This is laughable. The guy was an idiot expatriate and bit player - any claims of a "dirty bomb" plot had panned out to zilch and the last I heard - judges were refusing to dimiss his suit against John Yoo for having been tortured. Heckuva reference there, cajun. :D

Last you heard? LOL. Dude, you only hear from Salon.com and huffpo. And if you refuse to believe what people who were knowledgeable ssay about it then that's on you.

And yes, you people have been owned!

But you keep standing for the rights of terrorists and those who would kill your own countrymen.

You are a great American. :rolleyes:

[Jordan55]

Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair got it right last week when he noted how easy it is to condemn the enhanced interrogation program "on a bright sunny day in April 2009." Reactions to this former CIA program, which was used against senior al Qaeda suspects in 2002 and 2003, are demonstrating how little President Barack Obama and some Democratic members of Congress understand the dire threats to our nation.

George Tenet, who served as CIA director under Presidents George W. Bush and Bill Clinton, believes the enhanced interrogations program saved lives. He told CBS's "60 Minutes" in April 2007: "I know this program alone is worth more than the FBI, the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency put together have been able to tell us."

Last week, Mr. Blair made a similar statement in an internal memo to his staff when he wrote that "[h]igh value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa'ida organization that was attacking this country."

Yet last week Mr. Obama overruled the advice of his CIA director, Leon Panetta, and four prior CIA directors by releasing the details of the enhanced interrogation program. Former CIA director Michael Hayden has stated clearly that declassifying the memos will make it more difficult for the CIA to defend the nation.

It was not necessary to release details of the enhanced interrogation techniques, because members of Congress from both parties have been fully aware of them since the program began in 2002. We believed it was something that had to be done in the aftermath of the 9/11 terrorist attacks to keep our nation safe. After many long and contentious debates, Congress repeatedly approved and funded this program on a bipartisan basis in both Republican and Democratic Congresses.

Last week, Mr. Obama argued that those who implemented this program should not be prosecuted -- even though the release of the memos still places many individuals at other forms of unfair legal risk. It appeared that Mr. Obama understood it would be unfair to prosecute U.S. government employees for carrying out a policy that had been fully vetted and approved by the executive branch and Congress. The president explained this decision with these gracious words: "nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past." I agreed.

Unfortunately, on April 21, Mr. Obama backtracked and opened the door to possible prosecution of Justice Department attorneys who provided legal advice with respect to the enhanced interrogations program. The president also signaled that he may support some kind of independent inquiry into the program. It seems that he has capitulated to left-wing groups and some in Congress who are demanding show trials over this program.

Members of Congress calling for an investigation of the enhanced interrogation program should remember that such an investigation can't be a selective review of information, or solely focus on the lawyers who wrote the memos, or the low-level employees who carried out this program. I have asked Mr. Blair to provide me with a list of the dates, locations and names of all members of Congress who attended briefings on enhanced interrogation techniques.

Any investigation must include this information as part of a review of those in Congress and the Bush administration who reviewed and supported this program. To get a complete picture of the enhanced interrogation program, a fair investigation will also require that the Obama administration release the memos requested by former Vice President Dick Cheney on the successes of this program.

An honest and thorough review of the enhanced interrogation program must also assess the likely damage done to U.S. national security by Mr. Obama's decision to release the memos over the objections of Mr. Panetta and four of his predecessors. Such a review should assess what this decision communicated to our enemies, and also whether it will discourage intelligence professionals from offering their frank opinions in sensitive counterterrorist cases for fear that they will be prosecuted by a future administration.

Perhaps we need an investigation not of the enhanced interrogation program, but of what the Obama administration may be doing to endanger the security our nation has enjoyed because of interrogations and other antiterrorism measures implemented since Sept. 12, 2001.

Mr. Hoekstra, a congressman from Michigan, is ranking Republican on the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence

[ConcordCowboy]

In this thread only?
This Concord Character is Mr Drive by.
He posts,then runs away....he has no principles.
I remember when I was banned for 3 days,only then he took his time to reply to me...kicking me while I was down.I could not answer.
Surprise!..the ban was not permanent.

At least other left wingers here show up to the brawl...not Concord.
Concord is a text book coward.

What a whiner.

I posted about you and then directly to you after you came back from your banning in that very thread...so get your story frickin straight.

Here's the proof.

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2705148&postcount=48

I started this thread so of course I'm going to be here.

If you think I'm going to post in every anti-Obama thread in this forum or justify anything to you, then you're crazier than I thought.

I post in threads that interest me...not some Oh look Obama's the Anti- crap.

You people have made up your mind on him.

Hate away...I could care less...especially about a nut like you.

[ConcordCowboy]

Why? I have a ton of facts that support my positions. And you just got owned in this thread.

Owned...good Lord.

Tell me about Obama not being a U.S. Citizen again.

:laugh2:

[irvin4evs]

But you keep standing for the rights of terrorists and those who would kill your own countrymen.

You are a great American. :rolleyes:

DUDE, you are a PREACHER of the word of and you advocate WAR, TORTURE AND CAPITALISM. Do I need to educate you on your religion and why this does not work?

Am I the only one on the stupid board filled with Gun&God advocates that has actually read the Bible that I force upon everyone else in society?

THIS IS ABSURD

[Cajuncowboy]

Owned...good Lord.

Tell me about Obama not being a U.S. Citizen again.

:laugh2:

He's shown no proof of it.

Laugh all you want. As far as I and others are concerned, you and Suspect and people like you are nothing more than clanging symbols. Just a bunch of noise.

[ConcordCowboy]

He's shown no proof of it.

Laugh all you want. As far as I and others are concerned, you and Suspect and people like you are nothing more than clanging symbols. Just a bunch of noise.


I hope it's loud.


http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/7/8/2/558782.jpg

[MetalHead]

What a whiner.

I posted about you and then directly to you after you came back from your banning in that very thread...so get your story frickin straight.

Here's the proof.

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2705148&postcount=48

I started this thread so of course I'm going to be here.

If you think I'm going to post in every anti-Obama thread in this forum or justify anything to you, then you're crazier than I thought.

I post in threads that interest me...not some Oh look Obama's the Anti- crap.

You people have made up your mind on him.

Hate away...I could care less...especially about a nut like you.

Ok Sheep Boy...now go sing Change and Hope.

[Jordan55]

God Rest their Souls,
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IMAGES/CARTOONS/toon042309.gif

Suspect, Concord, how soon we forget

[MetalHead]

God Rest their Souls,
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IMAGES/CARTOONS/toon042309.gif

Suspect, Concord, how soon we forget

Those two make the founding fathers turn on their graves.

[DIAF]

DUDE, you are a PREACHER of the word of and you advocate WAR, TORTURE AND CAPITALISM. Do I need to educate you on your religion and why this does not work?

Am I the only one on the stupid board filled with Gun&God advocates that has actually read the Bible that I force upon everyone else in society?

THIS IS ABSURD

Nah dude its cool

is a Republican

Ok but seriously, as far as this "torture" goes, I doubt very much our founding fathers would be pleased, but hey I don't give a crap. Does that make me a bad person, i don't know, but I don't think sleep deprevation and making someone feel like they are drowning is quite in the same league as the Rack, the Iron Maiden, or ripping out someone's entrails. I don't care if a terrorist gets roughed up during interrogation.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Thanks for weighing in again - O'Brien. In this conversation you have acted as your strongest adversary. Have you gotten that yet?

The difference between your view of this and my commentary is that I am not trying to make a case of right or wrong. I am simply telling the truth. In my opinion, this is not about right or wrong. This is about survival. You are not going to understand that and I get that. However, it doesn't change the fact that torture, however distasteful to you and many others, is effective and it does work.

War is not a pretty thing and this is just part of what happens in war.

[SuspectCorner]

Suspect for what it's worth, I'll repost this just to show you that even the current Attorney General was supportive of the interroration techniques since we had no clue as to how Al-Queda operated, you know because of a past Democratic President who didn't realize the seriousness of the threat, as you apparently still don't comprehend, so stick to your BS moral high ground and when the facts comes out as to the intelligence gained, we will all be waiting for an admission of your thick-headedness.

Eric Holder spoke out on the interrogation of unlawful combatants in 2002.

“One of the things we clearly want to do with these prisoners is to have an ability to interrogate them and find out what their future plans might be, where other cells are located; under the Geneva Convention that you are really limited in the amount of information that you can elicit from people.

“It seems to me that given the way in which they have conducted themselves, however, that they are not, in fact, people entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention. They are not prisoners of war. If, for instance, Mohamed Atta had survived the attack on the World Trade Center, would we now be calling him a prisoner of war? I think not. Should Zacarias Moussaoui be called a prisoner of war? Again, I think not.”

–Eric Holder, CNN interview, January 2002

And from this you draw the conclusion that Eric Holder's 2002 position was that he supported various forms of torture including waterboarding? Buddy, you are hallucinating.

All Holder did here - was express an opinion regarding the status of detainees re the Geneva Conventions. But you make the leap from this to his endorsement of torture. That's a helluva jump there, Evel Kneivel.

Next you'll be trying to sell me that the future US Attorney General was unaware that we have our own US laws preventing the use of torture - regardless of the Geneva Conventions.

Sorry, no sale.

[SuspectCorner]

I'll take the word of someone who was actually there over some know nothing hack on a forum who posts articles from salon.com, thank you very much. I posted statements from people who were there. Facts as they are known. You posted assumptions from dubious sources at best.

First, we don't have solid evidence that torture produced any significant actionable intelligence outside of the unsubstantiated claims made by those parties either condoning or conducting this blight upon our country's good name. To date, they have produced NOTHING to support their claims. - SuspectCorner

Have we been attacked since 9/11? Is that enough proof to you? Or do you think we should have wined and dined these terrorists and that would have produced the evidence to stop the Buffalo plot? Or the one to blow up the bridge in NY? Or any of the other ones we don't know about?

No, you would prefer to not harm these pathetic morons than to protect innocent Americans. Shame on you.



Really? Seems 9/11 happened prior to all of this. Hmmm, nice revisionist history you have going there.



Show where I EVER said I was ? Because I am not perfect. But nice way to take a backhanded shot at my faith. Proves what kind of person you really are. Not that we didn't know already.



Just because you don't accept them doesn't make them wrong. Kinda like the Global Warming crowd. No matter the facts against it, you just change the game to fit your BS.



Last you heard? LOL. Dude, you only hear from Salon.com and huffpo. And if you refuse to believe what people who were knowledgeable ssay about it then that's on you.

And yes, you people have been owned!

But you keep standing for the rights of terrorists and those who would kill your own countrymen.

You are a great American. :rolleyes:

Blair said that he "also strongly supported the president when he declared that we would no longer use enhanced interrogation techniques. We do not need these techniques to keep America safe.

"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means. The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security," Blair concluded.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/04/dni-blair-sugge.html

The fact that we haven't been attacked since 9/11 has to be chalked up to the use of torture? Prove it.

The awfully scary "Buffalo plot"? Mmmm - not really.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sleeper/etc/synopsis.html

By "the one to blow up the bridge in NY" I assume you may be referring to would-be terrorist Iyman Faris and his ambitious plot to take out the Brooklyn bridge - using a blowtorch. It shook you so bad that you can't even remember it.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/19/alqaeda.plea/

But you're confused if you think ANY quantity of "actionable intelligence" would impress me enough to feel it's worth selling our country's principles down the river. Those principles are a major part of what has separated us from the ruthless, the fanatical, and the villainous enemies we have periodically been pitted against throughout our history as a nation. Or have you forgotten that, too?

[SuspectCorner]

God Rest their Souls,
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IMAGES/CARTOONS/toon042309.gif

Suspect, Concord, how soon we forget

I haven't forgotten. But where the enemy has succeeded in dragging you down to their level - they haven't done so with me. I believe the greater principles of this country should be held just as tightly in tumultuous times of conflict as they are in more convenient times. Maybe even more so. Otherwise they are just an illusion.

And your words have confirmed what YOU think of those principles.

[SuspectCorner]

The difference between your view of this and my commentary is that I am not trying to make a case of right or wrong. I am simply telling the truth. In my opinion, this is not about right or wrong. This is about survival. You are not going to understand that and I get that. However, it doesn't change the fact that torture, however distasteful to you and many others, is effective and it does work.

War is not a pretty thing and this is just part of what happens in war.

I'm ecstatic to say that YOUR truth - is NOTHING like mine.

This is EXACTLY about right and wrong. It's about maintaining OUR identity - and in the face of ANY enemy.

[ConcordCowboy]

Ok Sheep Boy...now go sing Change and Hope.

That's what I thought...talking out your *** and acting like you know what you're talking about as usual.

Hey McVeigh just go down into the bunker and start planning your assault.

[ConcordCowboy]

I don't think the U.S. should torture.

But I got to admit waterboarding these guys...I really got no problem with it.

Just went to Ground Zero a week ago.


God Rest their Souls,
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IMAGES/CARTOONS/toon042309.gif

Suspect, Concord, how soon we forget

Your post is **** all stupid...and no surprise here...Artie agreed with you.

[Cajuncowboy]

Blair said that he "also strongly supported the president when he declared that we would no longer use enhanced interrogation techniques. We do not need these techniques to keep America safe.

"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means. The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security," Blair concluded.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/04/dni-blair-sugge.html

The fact that we haven't been attacked since 9/11 has to be chalked up to the use of torture? Prove it.

The awfully scary "Buffalo plot"? Mmmm - not really.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sleeper/etc/synopsis.html

By "the one to blow up the bridge in NY" I assume you may be referring to would-be terrorist Iyman Faris and his ambitious plot to take out the Brooklyn bridge - using a blowtorch. It shook you so bad that you can't even remember it.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/19/alqaeda.plea/

But you're confused if you think ANY quantity of "actionable intelligence" would impress me enough to feel it's worth selling our country's principles down the river. Those principles are a major part of what has separated us from the ruthless, the fanatical, and the villainous enemies we have periodically been pitted against throughout our history as a nation. Or have you forgotten that, too?

Wow. YOu really keep proving that you care more about the terrorists than you do about your own people. Pathetic. To think that the Buffalo cell wasn't a threat, to think that taking out the Brooklyn Bridge wasn't a threat, to think that flying planes into a building in LA wasn't a threat. You would have rather NOT had the information and let Americans die than to extract the information and let them live.

You are a disgrace to this country.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I'm ecstatic to say that YOUR truth - is NOTHING like mine.

This is EXACTLY about right and wrong. It's about maintaining OUR identity - and in the face of ANY enemy.


I'm sure you are. Just as I am equally "Ecstatic" about the fact that we are still here, you are still alive and able to post your opinions.

Hate what I am saying, it is not something that I have not experienced before. The reality of the situation is very different then American perceptions of right and wrong unfortunately. I wish I could say that the world believes in your ideas of right and wrong. They do not and that single reality is played out every day. Hate me if you will but I am not wrong.

[SuspectCorner]

I'm sure you are. Just as I am equally "Ecstatic" about the fact that we are still here, you are still alive and able to post your opinions.

Hate what I am saying, it is not something that I have not experienced before. The reality of the situation is very different then American perceptions of right and wrong unfortunately. I wish I could say that the world believes in your ideas of right and wrong. They do not and that single reality is played out every day. Hate me if you will but I am not wrong.

I don't hate you, ABQ - I just strongly disagree with your rationalization of torture. More for what I feel it says about us than whatever effects it may have had on the recipients.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I don't hate you, ABQ - I just strongly disagree with your rationalization of torture. More for what I feel it says about us than whatever effects it may have had on the recipients.

Well, I am genuinely happy to hear you say that you do not hate me. I hope you don't hate people who may be like me either.

I don't know what to tell you Suspect. It is a matter of seeing things in my life that make me realize that we don't live in a very friendly world. I know it's not something any American likes to think America does. I know it's not something I would want young people to be taught. I know it's not the best side of who and what we are. Unfortunately, I also know it's never going to change. If people are prosecuted, bad things will happen. Bad things for those who are prosecuted, bad things for those who push for the prosecution, bad things for our Country and nothing will really change. These kinds of things will continue to go on, be it under the covers or with the knowledge of our Government. Information is much to valuable a commodity. If we don't do it, we will pay somebody rediculous amounts of money to do it and the information we are paying for will only be subject to manipulation by whomever is supplying it.

I'm sorry, it's just how the world is Suspect. Not like I ever imagined it would be when I was a boy. Just how it turned out.

[trickblue]

Those involved in intelligence go through waterboarding themselves...

Waterboarding techniques are very stringent and regimented...

I have no problem with it whatsoever...

[MetalHead]

Your post is **** all stupid...and no surprise here...Artie agreed with you.

WG edited your post...now that is macho...NOT!
Jordan 55 and folks like me make countries...you and your pansy kind destroys them.

[DIAF]

WG edited your post...now that is macho...NOT!
Jordan 55 and folks like me make countries...you and your pansy kind destroys them.

Oh good lord. Seriously? :rolleyes:

[ConcordCowboy]

WG edited your post...now that is macho...NOT!
Jordan 55 and folks like me make countries...you and your pansy kind destroys them.

I circumvented the language filter just for you and she fixed my error.

Unfortunately.

Shouldn't you be on Military.com slamming them for being soft and hating America?

I didn't think so, you don't have the nads for that.

People like you are exactly what is WRONG and SCREWED up about this Country.

[ConcordCowboy]

Those involved in intelligence go through waterboarding themselves...

Waterboarding techniques are very stringent and regimented...

I have no problem with it whatsoever...

Yeah like these guys never break the rules.

[SuspectCorner]

Well, I am genuinely happy to hear you say that you do not hate me. I hope you don't hate people who may be like me either.

I don't know what to tell you Suspect. It is a matter of seeing things in my life that make me realize that we don't live in a very friendly world. I know it's not something any American likes to think America does. I know it's not something I would want young people to be taught. I know it's not the best side of who and what we are. Unfortunately, I also know it's never going to change. If people are prosecuted, bad things will happen. Bad things for those who are prosecuted, bad things for those who push for the prosecution, bad things for our Country and nothing will really change. These kinds of things will continue to go on, be it under the covers or with the knowledge of our Government. Information is much to valuable a commodity. If we don't do it, we will pay somebody rediculous amounts of money to do it and the information we are paying for will only be subject to manipulation by whomever is supplying it.

I'm sorry, it's just how the world is Suspect. Not like I ever imagined it would be when I was a boy. Just how it turned out.

Spare me. We've never lived in a friendly world. And yet, our predecessors understood the dangers of torture and were able to resist the convenience of a Cheney-like slide over to the"dark side". You know - "the ends justify the means."

They understood the importance of taking the moral high road in our dealings with the enemy. Unfortunately, you seem to be representative of the mindset of the "me generation" and the obsession with instant gratification.

Like-minded rationalizers have lost sight of the long-term costs inherent to a trade off of our highest principles for the achievement of short-term goals. And that kind of thinking sacrifices two hundred years of accrued wisdom to a juvenile "but I want it now, mommy" ethic.

[Cajuncowboy]

Spare me. We've never lived in a friendly world. And yet, our predecessors understood the dangers of torture and were able to resist the convenience of a Cheney-like slide over to the"dark side". You know - "the ends justify the means."

They understood the importance of taking the moral high road in our dealings with the enemy. Unfortunately, you seem to be representative of the mindset of the "me generation" and the obsession with instant gratification.

Like-minded rationalizers have lost sight of the long-term costs inherent to a trade off of our highest principles for the achievement of short-term goals. And that kind of thinking sacrifices two hundred years of accrued wisdom to a juvenile "but I want it now, mommy" ethic.

This post shows how ignorant you are about this. To think that we have never before used enhanced interrogation methods before Bush is beyond foolish and is completely naive.

[MetalHead]

I circumvented the language filter just for you and she fixed my error.

Unfortunately.

Shouldn't you be on Military.com slamming them for being soft and hating America?

I didn't think so, you don't have the nads for that.

People like you are exactly what is WRONG and SCREWED up about this Country.

Come talk to me when you have worn the BDUs for two minutes...only special people wear it for long...

[MetalHead]

Yeah like these guys never break the rules.

What do you know about anything that involves defending something?
You have been defended all your life.

[ConcordCowboy]

Come talk to me when you have worn the BDUs for two minutes...only special people wear it for long...

What do you know about anything that involves defending something?
You have been defended all your life.

You'll excuse me if I'm not impressed.

I would say more but it will get deleted again.

[SuspectCorner]

This post shows how ignorant you are about this. To think that we have never before used enhanced interrogation methods before Bush is beyond foolish and is completely naive.

Against a foreign enemy and those overseeing the incident weren't court martialed at minimum? Point to it, fabricator. Show me the money.

[BrAinPaiNt]

Listen and listen well.

One person has already got banned due to this thread and a few others are really doing everything in their power to push it so they too get banned.

Slow it down, drop the personal insults and name calling.

If it continues don't be shocked and complain when you get banned.

This is the last warning.

[Cajuncowboy]

Against a foreign enemy and those overseeing the incident weren't court martialed at minimum? Point to it, fabricator. Show me the money.

Do you really think for a minute that this hasn't happened? You think for a minute that the government, who up until now, has had some brains when it comes to this would make it common knowledge?

Geez, you keep proving me right about how ignorant you are about this.

And I hope you get banned for calling me a liar.