Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'

[SuspectCorner]

Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5395830/Abu-Ghraib-abuse-photos-show-rape.html)

Photographs of alleged prisoner abuse which Barack Obama is attempting to censor include images of apparent rape and sexual abuse, it has emerged.

By Duncan Gardham, Security Correspondent and Paul Cruickshank / from The London Telegraph website /
Last Updated: 8:21AM BST 28 May 2009

At least one picture shows an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner while another is said to show a male translator raping a male detainee.

Further photographs are said to depict sexual assaults on prisoners with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube.

Another apparently shows a female prisoner having her clothing forcibly removed to expose her breasts.

Detail of the content emerged from Major General Antonio Taguba, the former army officer who conducted an inquiry into the Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq.

Allegations of rape and abuse were included in his 2004 report but the fact there were photographs was never revealed. He has now confirmed their existence in an interview with the Daily Telegraph.

The graphic nature of some of the images may explain the US President’s attempts to block the release of an estimated 2,000 photographs from prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan despite an earlier promise to allow them to be published.

Maj Gen Taguba, who retired in January 2007, said he supported the President’s decision, adding: “These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency.

“I am not sure what purpose their release would serve other than a legal one and the consequence would be to imperil our troops, the only protectors of our foreign policy, when we most need them, and British troops who are trying to build security in Afghanistan.

“The mere description of these pictures is horrendous enough, take my word for it.”

In April, Mr Obama’s administration said the photographs would be released and it would be “pointless to appeal” against a court judgment in favour of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU).

But after lobbying from senior military figures, Mr Obama changed his mind saying they could put the safety of troops at risk.

Earlier this month, he said: “The most direct consequence of releasing them, I believe, would be to inflame anti-American public opinion and to put our troops in greater danger.”

It was thought the images were similar to those leaked five years ago, which showed naked and bloody prisoners being intimidated by dogs, dragged around on a leash, piled into a human pyramid and hooded and attached to wires.

Mr Obama seemed to reinforce that view by adding: “I want to emphasise that these photos that were requested in this case are not particularly sensational, especially when compared to the painful images that we remember from Abu Ghraib.”

The latest photographs relate to 400 cases of alleged abuse between 2001 and 2005 in Abu Ghraib and six other prisons. Mr Obama said the individuals involved had been “identified, and appropriate actions” taken.

Maj Gen Taguba’s internal inquiry into the abuse at Abu Ghraib, included sworn statements by 13 detainees, which, he said in the report, he found “credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses.”

Among the graphic statements, which were later released under US freedom of information laws, is that of Kasim Mehaddi Hilas in which he says: “I saw [name of a translator] ******* a kid, his age would be about 15 to 18 years. The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets. Then when I heard screaming I climbed the door because on top it wasn’t covered and I saw [name] who was wearing the military uniform, putting his **** in the little kid’s ***…. and the female soldier was taking pictures.”

The translator was an American Egyptian who is now the subject of a civil court case in the US.

Three detainees, including the alleged victim, refer to the use of a phosphorescent tube in the sexual abuse and another to the use of wire, while the victim also refers to part of a policeman’s “stick” all of which were apparently photographed.

[masomenos]

Terribly shameful, if true. Just a disgusting abuse of power, dignity and human rights.

I hope those photographs never get released.

[burmafrd]

ITs absolutely true that if the photos show this and are released, US troops will be killed because of it. So there is no justification for doing it. Its not like the US has not been grilled and put over the coals because of Abu Ghraib.

[SuspectCorner]

Terribly shameful, if true. Just a disgusting abuse of power, dignity and human rights.

I hope those photographs never get released.

Oh please NO - the descriptions are bad enough that I, myself, wouldn't want to be exposed to the pictures.

Unfortunately, the harm done to our country's name and reputation during the Bush-Cheney administration simply cannot be overstated.

[burmafrd]

This would have probably happened no matter who was president. Sadly this is not the first nor the last time that military prisons have done this.

[zrinkill]

The last time this "story" came out was in 2004.

It was proven to be fake propaganda using "reality" porn site pictures back then.

Forgive me if I do not believe this until actual evidence other than hearsay has been given that was originally posted by the Huffington Post.

I understand that a few people want this to be true.

[MetalHead]

Did the alleged rape occurred before of after the beheadings...oh wait,they still have their heads attached to their bodies?

It is breathtakingly naive how the left sees war.
An utopian vision,where everybody follows the "rules of war"....It war people!
atrocities happen during it.Always!
You want to really show me something atrocious???
Show me pictures of aborted fetuses...at least those Iraqi scumbags had a chance to make a choice.

[SuspectCorner]

This would have probably happened no matter who was president. Sadly this is not the first nor the last time that military prisons have done this.

While your rationalizations for the complete lack of Bush-Cheney oversight (at the very least) may satisfy you - they don't quite cut it for me. Not even close.

[Viper]

My first question would be, is this the norm? If this came from the top, I would have a problem with it. As great as the American soldier is, it is unfortunate that the military does have it's own group of criminals. The military has always been very good at handling these types of incidents. So my next question would be, have any of these offenders been brought to justice?

[burmafrd]

Well suspect do you think I care what you think? You hate our country as your post history has proven. So why don't you do some research and see some of the problems our military prisons had in the 90's when your Slick Willy was president. You won't of course.

[SuspectCorner]

Did the alleged rape occurred before of after the beheadings...oh wait,they still have their heads attached to their bodies?

It is breathtakingly naive how the left sees war.
An utopian vision,where everybody follows the "rules of war"....It war people!
atrocities happen during it.Always!
You want to really show me something atrocious???
Show me pictures of aborted fetuses...at least those Iraqi scumbags had a chance to make a choice.

What's REALLY breathtaking is your feeble defense of the Bush-Cheney sloughing off of long-held and sacred American principles - all the while insisting that no matter how low we go we're NOT YET at a moral and ethical point equivalent to that of the MURDERERS, RELIGIOUS LUNATICS, and ASSASSINS we do battle with. More evidence of where the bar is set for you. It's on the ground right next to the nest of snakes we can STILL claim moral superiority over - as long as we make a concerted effort to SHUN miopic shortcut thinking like yours. And the corresponding actions subsequent to such short-sightedness.

[burmafrd]

Or as long as we ignore the haters of the US like you.....

[TheCount]

ITs absolutely true that if the photos show this and are released, US troops will be killed because of it. So there is no justification for doing it. Its not like the US has not been grilled and put over the coals because of Abu Ghraib.

I love that your main concern here is the photos getting released, not the disgusting act themselves.

I personally hope the reports are wrong because, if true, this is absolutely sickening.

[zrinkill]

Or as long as we ignore the haters of the US like you.....


Like I said earlier this week ..... at least they waited till the day after Memorial Day to start slandering the Military with articles originally from the Huffington Post.

[iceberg]

Oh please NO - the descriptions are bad enough that I, myself, wouldn't want to be exposed to the pictures.

Unfortunately, the harm done to our country's name and reputation during the Bush-Cheney administration simply cannot be overstated.

GET OVER IT! i'm sorry we had 8 years of someone you didn't like in office but now all you look for are reasons to hold onto that hate. clinton getting hummers in the oval office and lying about it - hurt.

carter - hurt.

we can all pick the "OH NOS!!!!" of who we don't like and focus ONLY on that. but i hate to tell you this but our military has things like this in likely every war. not because we want it to happen but because it does. to focus on one admin or person is sheer choice - NOTHING MORE.

the harm done to our country by fanatical libs running around apologizing all the time and trying to help those who want us dead is far more damaging to me - it says we can't come together despite our differences but we'll let our differences forever keep us apart.

that just makes us an easy target.

i'm not singling you out - many conservatives have turned tail and do nothing but look for obama bullets at every opportunity also - it SUCKS.

so please, keep the drama in the movies and stop pretending someone who does something you personally will be the downfall of our great country.

[burmafrd]

Well COUNT I can guess you clearly do not care about the troops being killed due to the photo's being released but then that is not a surprise.

[SuspectCorner]

Or as long as we ignore the haters of the US like you.....

That's you and your ilk in a nutshell. "Our country can do no wrong and any American who has the audacity to dare notice otherwise - hates the US."

I want the best for our country and when she strays from her glorious path I'm going to be very vocal about it. That's because I'm confident that she is capable of much more than the low expectations you appear to have for her.

[Viper]

That's you and your ilk in a nutshell. "Our country can do no wrong and any American who has the audacity to dare notice otherwise - hates the US."

I want the best for our country and when she strays from her glorious path I'm going to be very vocal about it. That's because I'm confident that she is capable of much more than the low expectations you appear to have for her.

America has never been the America you think she is, this higher ground than everyone else never really existed.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/9782/atrocities.htm

[trickblue]

The last time this "story" came out was in 2004.

It was proven to be fake propaganda using "reality" porn site pictures back then.

Forgive me if I do not believe this until actual evidence other than hearsay has been given that was originally posted by the Huffington Post.

I understand that a few people want this to be true.

I remember that... let's hope these are the same pictures in question.

My first question would be, is this the norm? If this came from the top, I would have a problem with it. As great as the American soldier is, it is unfortunate that the military does have it's own group of criminals. The military has always been very good at handling these types of incidents. So my next question would be, have any of these offenders been brought to justice?

If these are legit, let the military try them. If guilty, they'll get it much worse under a military court.

I love that your main concern here is the photos getting released, not the disgusting act themselves.

I personally hope the reports are wrong because, if true, this is absolutely sickening.

I read it that releasing them would put good soldiers in danger at the expense of a political point. I agree.

If these pics are legit, then it won't be hard to ID the offenders, then they can be tried as individuals in court as opposed to our entire military being tried in the court of public opinion...

[Viper]

I remember that... let's hope these are the same pictures in question.



If these are legit, let the military try them. If guilty, they'll get it much worse under a military court.



I read it that releasing them would put good soldiers in danger at the expense of a political point. I agree.

If these pics are legit, then it won't be hard to ID the offenders, then they can be tried as individuals in court as opposed to our entire military being tried in the court of public opinion...

I agree trick, it wouldn't surprise me if the military was already handling this.

[SuspectCorner]

GET OVER IT! i'm sorry we had 8 years of someone you didn't like in office but now all you look for are reasons to hold onto that hate. clinton getting hummers in the oval office and lying about it - hurt.

carter - hurt.

we can all pick the "OH NOS!!!!" of who we don't like and focus ONLY on that. but i hate to tell you this but our military has things like this in likely every war. not because we want it to happen but because it does. to focus on one admin or person is sheer choice - NOTHING MORE.

the harm done to our country by fanatical libs running around apologizing all the time and trying to help those who want us dead is far more damaging to me - it says we can't come together despite our differences but we'll let our differences forever keep us apart.

that just makes us an easy target.

i'm not singling you out - many conservatives have turned tail and do nothing but look for obama bullets at every opportunity also - it SUCKS.

so please, keep the drama in the movies and stop pretending someone who does something you personally will be the downfall of our great country.

And you're comparing this to Clinton getting "hummers"? May I suggest you lack a sense of scale, iceberg?

In the real world, you'd NEVER get this kind of mileage from a Hummer.

[TheCount]

Well COUNT I can guess you clearly do not care about the troops being killed due to the photo's being released but then that is not a surprise.

If you think that, you're an idiot.

I read it that releasing them would put good soldiers in danger at the expense of a political point. I agree.

If these pics are legit, then it won't be hard to ID the offenders, then they can be tried as individuals in court as opposed to our entire military being tried in the court of public opinion...

It would be incredible naive to think this would be the first time time our enemies would be hearing of this. They aren't people that need photographic proof to believe something like this.

The photos would damage the reputation of the US, no doubt, and that is the real problem with releasing them. I certainly don't want to see them or have them released, but if someone had come on here and said they had heard prisoners were being raped before this story, none of you guys would have given them any credence whatsoever.

[zrinkill]

but if someone had come on here and said they had heard prisoners were being raped before this story, none of you guys would have given them any credence whatsoever.

Thats because everyone heard this back in 2004 ..... and it turned out to be bullcrap.

And who exactly are "you guys"? The people who give little credence to suspectcorners known love of sensational huffington post stories?

[TheCount]

Thats because everyone heard this back in 2004 ..... and it turned out to be bullcrap.

And who exactly are "you guys"? The people who give little credence to suspectcorners known love of sensational huffington post stories?

And this could turn out to be bs as well, does that mean you stop taking it seriously?

[zrinkill]

And this could turn out to be bs as well, does that mean you stop taking it seriously?


Nope ..... thats why I said I am waiting for some actual evidence.

Suspect has already made up his mind.

[vta]

And you're comparing this to Clinton getting "hummers"? May I suggest you lack a sense of scale, iceberg?

In the real world, you'd NEVER get this kind of mileage from a Hummer.

No, he's probably referring to your single minded ignorance of a truth.
You are aware that we have military bases in numerous countries? And further you realize that U.S. Soldiers had been accused of rape, under Clintons administration? Do a search for U.S. Soldiers, Rape, South Korea...

Yet, the level of indignation was never at such a fever pitch. Does who is in the White House really gauge a persons morality?

No one of sound mind finds any of this garbage appropriate or excusable. But there's also a fundamental understanding that evil is not indigenous to a place, or endemic to a for of government. We can highlight the ills of all men, from all walks of life and it won't really prop up much of an assertion except that in large part, humans are ****. It most certainly make your claims anymore valid. Let go of the partisan crap, they all do it.

[TheCount]

Nope ..... thats why I said I am waiting for some actual evidence.

Suspect has already made up his mind.

That's kind of my point. Even without the photos, with nothing but rumors, our enemies will use it as a recruitment tool and as a way to incite hatred.

The pictures themselves, while they could certainly make things worse with our enemies, would be undeniable proof for others that bad things, other than just waterboarding or humiliation, happen in those prisons.

I highly doubt the rape of a prisoner would be ordered, that would be beyond insane.

[zrinkill]

I highly doubt the rape of a prisoner would be ordered, that would be beyond insane.


Tell that to the OP

the harm done to our country's name and reputation during the Bush-Cheney administration simply cannot be overstated.

He thinks if it happened it was ordered ...... in fact he hopes it happened and it was ordered.

Personally I think a few people may have taken advantage of a situation to appease their evil natures ...... happens in every war and even in every prison.

IF it happened ..... then the people responsible should be given the harshest penalty allowed.

But I will wait till real evidence surfaces to condemn a U.S. Military man.

Unlike the O.P.

[ABQCOWBOY]

While your rationalizations for the complete lack of Bush-Cheney oversight (at the very least) may satisfy you - they don't quite cut it for me. Not even close.

Richard Ames once wrote that great Nations fall from within. I think he's right. You can look at this and point to it as an indaction of decline. I don't really see it that way. What happened at Abu Ghraib was not our militaries finest hour, to be sure. However, I will say that what is depicted in this article is not completely factual. Things were done that were not in line with the Military Code of Justice or consistant with treatment of prisoners in accordance with the Geneva Convention. I suspect that what has been reported has some basis in truth. I also suspect that what has been reported also contains untruths. Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld all took their beatings over this and the results were the eventual removal of Rumsfeld and a complete overhaul of how things were run and prisoners treated. The Commanding Officer, then General Janis Karpinski and 11 American Soldiers were convicted and punished for their actions. To my knowledge, no other violations concerning sexual abuse have been brought forward since that time. Instead, we have people complaining about Wateboarding. I don't say that these sorts of behavior are acceptable. I will say that this goes on all over the world by every country from the dawn of time. This is War. This is not incarceration for laws broken within the confines of our nation.

The release of memos authorizing interrogation and treatments of these prisoners should never have happened. All of this can be directly related to the Presidents decisions to release Bush Era documents that were previously classified. Once those documents were released, the next step was the request for Photos. Right or wrong, the internal communications should not have been declassified and released by President Obama. That was pretty irresponsable IMO. Our soldiers will pay for this in the field. That's a given. These photos, if released can do no good. What happened at Abu Ghraib was not right but it is also not uncommen. If you think it is something that doesn't happen throughout the world, your kidding yourself. Does that make it right? No, I would not say it does but it's also not going to change. This kind of thing will continue to be done to our soldiers and our country will do this to others. It's WAR and that's the unfortunate truth of the matter.

IMO, it does no good to rehash this thing but that won't stop anybody. They will fight tooth and nail to get the photos released and when the first soldier is found abused and dead, they will say it is because of these photos and what was done but they will never say that this kind of thing is already going on and has been since the begining.

[iceberg]

That's you and your ilk in a nutshell. "Our country can do no wrong and any American who has the audacity to dare notice otherwise - hates the US."

I want the best for our country and when she strays from her glorious path I'm going to be very vocal about it. That's because I'm confident that she is capable of much more than the low expectations you appear to have for her.

what you don't BOTH see if you BOTH wants whats best for this country. playing that card like the other doesn't give a damn is pointless.

your "ilk" seems to want to apologize for everything we do and be the good guys *all the time*. so do i.

not a realistic expectation, is it?

strays from her glorious path?

you've been watching the hallmark channel a bit much.

[iceberg]

Richard Ames once wrote that great Nations fall from within. I think he's right. You can look at this and point to it as an indaction of decline. I don't really see it that way. What happened at Abu Ghraib was not our militaries finest hour, to be sure. However, I will say that what is depicted in this article is not completely factual. Things were done that were not in line with the Military Code of Justice or consistant with treatment of prisoners in accordance with the Geneva Convention. I suspect that what has been reported has some basis in truth. I also suspect that what has been reported also contains untruths. Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld all took their beatings over this and the results were the eventual removal of Rumsfeld and a complete overhaul of how things were run and prisoners treated. The Commanding Officer, then General Janis Karpinski and 11 American Soldiers were convicted and punished for their actions. To my knowledge, no other violations concerning sexual abuse have been brought forward since that time. Instead, we have people complaining about Wateboarding. I don't say that these sorts of behavior are acceptable. I will say that this goes on all over the world by every country from the dawn of time. This is War. This is not incarceration for laws broken within the confines of our nation.

The release of memos authorizing interrogation and treatments of these prisoners should never have happened. All of this can be directly related to the Presidents decisions to release Bush Era documents that were previously classified. Once those documents were released, the next step was the request for Photos. Right or wrong, the internal communications should not have been declassified and released by President Obama. That was pretty irresponsable IMO. Our soldiers will pay for this in the field. That's a given. These photos, if released can do no good. What happened at Abu Ghraib was not right but it is also not uncommen. If you think it is something that doesn't happen throughout the world, your kidding yourself. Does that make it right? No, I would not say it does but it's also not going to change. This kind of thing will continue to be done to our soldiers and our country will do this to others. It's WAR and that's the unfortunate truth of the matter.

IMO, it does no good to rehash this thing but that won't stop anybody. They will fight tooth and nail to get the photos released and when the first soldier is found abused and dead, they will say it is because of these photos and what was done but they will never say that this kind of thing is already going on and has been since the begining.

very insightful. success is something we don't have till we work to get it. then once we do and rise to "the top" there's nowhere left to go BUT down. it's not usually the outside coming in but the inside tearing itself apart at it's own success.

we don't have to work for success anymore, we're there, right? to me that's when it gets dangerous and it could well be we're in the decline of our country now simply because we're too use to it being easy.

to we take our accomplishments and diminish them because those who can't or won't rise up need love to. we tell the person in 3rd place they should have won and invent excuses to not have to work harder for what you want and then what we want should just come to us because everything else does.

i'm not glad our military did some wrong things. nor will i believe everything i hear either. people exaggurate, ya know? embellish, ya know?

if they would work as hard to get what they want as they do to give it all away we'd be a lot better off. but we're in a decline that many can't see for reasons of their own. we cherry pick personal issues so we don't have to look at the whole. we choose a side and fight each other instead of with each other.

then we wonder why no one sees it our way and never stop to consider it's quite likely because we never took the time to see it THEIR way.

and that's when we fall from within and our enemies just dance in the ruins as if they did it.

there. my drama for the day.

[Viper]

and that's when we fall from within and our enemies just dance in the ruins as if they did it.



But...our glorious path is lined in gold as we follow the sunshine into the age of Aquarius.:D

[JBond]

First let me say if these rehashed allegations from 5 years ago are true, it is horrible and brutal, and not what the United States stands for. With that being said, maybe I'm a bit more of a realistic than our friends from the left on this board.

I am not the least bit surprised brutal acts were committed during a war. I am not shocked if rape happened in a prison. Those that pretend to be outraged have no idea what is going on in the real world. I suppose we could have chopped their heads off or fed them feet first into a wood chipper and all would be OK, because that is the type of thing our enemy does and the babies on this board never talk about that.

[iceberg]

First let me say if these rehashed allegations from 5 years ago are true, it is horrible and brutal, and not what the United States stands for. With that being said, maybe I'm a bit more of a realistic than our friends from the left on this board.

I am not the least bit surprised brutal acts were committed during a war. I am not shocked if rape happened in a prison. Those that pretend to be outraged have no idea what is going on in the real world. I suppose we could have chopped their heads off or fed them feet first into a wood chipper and all would be OK, because that is the type of thing our enemy does and the babies on this board never talk about that.

no one is happy when warcrimes are committed. but i can't name a single country who's NOT committed them. so to pretend that being american is somehow above being human is setting yourself up for frustrations. all we can do is find them and prosecute them to show we won't tolerate it.

but to say they were committed because of bush/cheney is simply self-serving hatred from people who won't let their favorite crutch go.

it's sad to say if we stay at war more crimes are likely to be committed - will this rightious behavior come about and slam the current president from those who love to slam bush - still? or will there be an excuse or reason for it this time?

my guess is the later and it's only then you see hypocracy at it's finest. if the same hallmark drama comes out - great - then i see people chasing ideals not dogging people and those are 2 different situations.

but again, to drag up old crimes and rehash them - why? to what point does it serve outside your own?

[ConcordCowboy]

http://fc06.deviantart.com/fs24/f/2007/314/9/5/Real_men_don__t_rape__by_Spider_Kiss.jpg

[iceberg]

who's arguing that point?
name a culture that doesn't rape so we have something to shoot for.

[ConcordCowboy]

who's arguing that point?
name a culture that doesn't rape so we have something to shoot for.

The point is Rape is NEVER justified.

Not even in the name of National Security.

[iceberg]

The point is Rape is NEVER justified.

Not even in the name of National Security.

i'll ask again - who has said it is justified?

*if* this should happen under obama's watch i hope the outrage is just as strong, but i also hope obama doesn't have to put up with people making him the sole reason for it. "his watch" and all.

find who did it, put them on trial, and if convicted, punish them. but to drag it up and go BAD BUSH!! I WANT MORE FROM MY COUNTRY!!! does what?

[ABQCOWBOY]

http://fc06.deviantart.com/fs24/f/2007/314/9/5/Real_men_don__t_rape__by_Spider_Kiss.jpg

If these things happened, it's probably not a situation in which the offenders committed these acts because they were sexually driven. It's more likely that they were committed in an attempt to create pyscholocigal response. In the Arab world, rape is viewed much differently then it is in the West. When a women is raped, it's viewed severly and many times, more severly towards the women dependant upon circumstances. However, if a man is raped, he's as good as dead. It's viewed very harsly. It could very well be that the threat of rape was being used as a psychological motivational tool to obtain infromation. I'm not saying that attrocities were or were not committed. I'm saying that it is very likely that our own Millitary Intelligence could have wanted prisoners to believe that it was a very real possability that it could happen. As I have said many, many times on this board, much worse happens then waterboarding. It is how information is extracted from enemy prisoners. Obviously, nobody is going to give up the desired info willingly. It is a process in which you have to force it from them and the means and methods are not pretty. They have little to no regard for intellectual damage. The goal is to secure the information. It is not to protect the civil rights of the prisoner. This is why it's a mistake to view these situations as you would criminal incarceration for American citizens. It's not the same thing. The goals are not the same and the introduction of American Citizens rights will only complicate things. If you want to get the information, you can't have it both ways. I know that's not what anybody wants to hear but it is the truth. It's not a pretty business.

[ConcordCowboy]

Did the alleged rape occurred before of after the beheadings...oh wait,they still have their heads attached to their bodies?

It is breathtakingly naive how the left sees war.
An utopian vision,where everybody follows the "rules of war"....It war people!
atrocities happen during it.Always!
You want to really show me something atrocious???
Show me pictures of aborted fetuses...at least those Iraqi scumbags had a chance to make a choice.

i'll ask again - who has said it is justified?

*if* this should happen under obama's watch i hope the outrage is just as strong, but i also hope obama doesn't have to put up with people making him the sole reason for it. "his watch" and all.

find who did it, put them on trial, and if convicted, punish them. but to drag it up and go BAD BUSH!! I WANT MORE FROM MY COUNTRY!!! does what?

That looks like someone trying to justify it to me.

[ABQCOWBOY]

That looks like someone trying to justify it to me.

Justify what?

[ConcordCowboy]

i'll ask again - who has said it is justified?



If these things happened, it's probably not a situation in which the offenders committed these acts because they were sexually driven. It's more likely that they were committed in an attempt to create pyscholocigal response. In the Arab world, rape is viewed much differently then it is in the West. When a women is raped, it's viewed severly and many times, more severly towards the women dependant upon circumstances. However, if a man is raped, he's as good as dead. It's viewed very harsly. It could very well be that the threat of rape was being used as a psychological motivational tool to obtain infromation. I'm not saying that attrocities were or were not committed. I'm saying that it is very likely that our own Millitary Intelligence could have wanted prisoners to believe that it was a very real possability that it could happen. As I have said many, many times on this board, much worse happens then waterboarding. It is how information is extracted from enemy prisoners. Obviously, nobody is going to give up the desired info willingly. It is a process in which you have to force it from them and the means and methods are not pretty. They have little to no regard for intellectual damage. The goal is to secure the information. It is not to protect the civil rights of the prisoner. This is why it's a mistake to view these situations as you would criminal incarceration for American citizens. It's not the same thing. The goals are not the same and the introduction of American Citizens rights will only complicate things. If you want to get the information, you can't have it both ways. I know that's not what anybody wants to hear but it is the truth. It's not a pretty business.

There you go.

[CowboyWay]

GET OVER IT! i'm sorry we had 8 years of someone you didn't like in office but now all you look for are reasons to hold onto that hate. clinton getting hummers in the oval office and lying about it - hurt.

carter - hurt.
.

Don't forget Reagan.

[ConcordCowboy]

Justify what?

That it's OK to rape someone because well they still have their heads and it's not as worse.

[CowboyWay]

I am not the least bit surprised brutal acts were committed during a war. .

There isn't a country in the worlds history that these sorts of things don't happen too during war. Boys will be boys, no matter how heinous thier acts are.

But to be shocked by the behavior of a group of men 18-40 years old during a war is just flat out ignorance.

What I want to know is were the stupid ones to let someone take picture of this stuff. Idiots.

[ABQCOWBOY]

There you go.

Are you trying to say that I am justifying something here? I think you're beating down a bad path.

Let me say this again, nothing, so far as I know, has been proven as yet. I am simply trying to explain to board members how it may have worked. Do not use me to further your point please.

[iceberg]

That looks like someone trying to justify it to me.

not me. it sounds like he's trying to say what they do is "worse" not what we do or have done isn't wrong.

i hear a lot more outrage at a soldier peeing on a koran than i ever heard about an innocent man being beheaded and put on the internet for the radical muslem.

now show me where he said rape was "ok".

[burmafrd]

Concord is just like suspect and VC and wants to believe the worst.

[iceberg]

That it's OK to rape someone because well they still have their heads and it's not as worse.

so then - which is worse, getting raped or having your head cut off with a machette over time and the film placed on the internet?

just pick one please.

[ABQCOWBOY]

That it's OK to rape someone because well they still have their heads and it's not as worse.

To this I would say, War is never going to be viewed as an OK thing. Now, I think it is important to understand that if you want to win in War, there are certain practices, certain things that are not ever going to be viewed positively from our populas. People often believe that the Military and/or the Government hide things from the American people for reasons of greed or control, many different reasons I suppose. Now, there is truth to this on many different occasions. I don't believe that this is the case here or in many instances when it comes to the security of our country. Our Government knows that what must be done to win a War will not be received well with our public. Americans are not ready to look at this thing from the view point of live or die. They look at it from the view point of Civil Human Rights and or Citizens Rights. These are not soldiers. They are terrorists. America has to come to the realization that if we want to Win this War, certain things will need to be done. Not saying there right. I'm saying that if we want to win, if we want to prevent American loss of life, these things are going to be used. We have to decide if we want to win or not.

If the answer is yes, then we can't devide ourselves on things like this. Take corrective action and move on with the War effort. If we don't want to win, then we need to end the War. Now, what does that mean? That means that you have to accept that things like 9/11 are probably going to happen again and possibly much worse. Americans will die on American soil and we can not committe troops to fight based on how outraged we are at the moment these attacks happen. If your going to fight, you have to fight to win or you have to shut up and take it.

There are no half measures. Either they die or we die. That's how it is.

[bbgun]

Concord is just like suspect and VC and wants to believe the worst.

Suspect certainly has a nose for news that reflects badly on this country. A coincidence, I'm sure.

[ConcordCowboy]

If these things happened, it's probably not a situation in which the offenders committed these acts because they were sexually driven. It's more likely that they were committed in an attempt to create pyscholocigal response. In the Arab world, rape is viewed much differently then it is in the West. When a women is raped, it's viewed severly and many times, more severly towards the women dependant upon circumstances. However, if a man is raped, he's as good as dead. It's viewed very harsly. It could very well be that the threat of rape was being used as a psychological motivational tool to obtain infromation. I'm not saying that attrocities were or were not committed. I'm saying that it is very likely that our own Millitary Intelligence could have wanted prisoners to believe that it was a very real possability that it could happen. As I have said many, many times on this board, much worse happens then waterboarding. It is how information is extracted from enemy prisoners. Obviously, nobody is going to give up the desired info willingly. It is a process in which you have to force it from them and the means and methods are not pretty. They have little to no regard for intellectual damage. The goal is to secure the information. It is not to protect the civil rights of the prisoner. This is why it's a mistake to view these situations as you would criminal incarceration for American citizens. It's not the same thing. The goals are not the same and the introduction of American Citizens rights will only complicate things. If you want to get the information, you can't have it both ways. I know that's not what anybody wants to hear but it is the truth. It's not a pretty business.

Are you trying to say that I am justifying something here? I think you're beating down a bad path.

Let me say this again, nothing, so far as I know, has been proven as yet. I am simply trying to explain to board members how it may have worked. Do not use me to further your point please.

That sounded like you were trying to justify it to me...If I'm wrong then I'm sorry.

[zrinkill]

Hey!!!! I just noticed VCdefector got himself banned while I was sick a few weeks ago.

There a story behind it or did the Mods just get tired of his stupid act?

[ConcordCowboy]

not me. it sounds like he's trying to say what they do is "worse" not what we do or have done isn't wrong.

i hear a lot more outrage at a soldier peeing on a koran than i ever heard about an innocent man being beheaded and put on the internet for the radical muslem.

now show me where he said rape was "ok".

Oh I think there's no doubt how he feels...I've read plenty of his posts.

But we can settle this easily.

Artie is it OK to Rape in the interest of National Security?

[Rogah]

That's you and your ilk in a nutshell. "Our country can do no wrong and any American who has the audacity to dare notice otherwise - hates the US."

I want the best for our country and when she strays from her glorious path I'm going to be very vocal about it. That's because I'm confident that she is capable of much more than the low expectations you appear to have for her.:rolleyes:

Wanting to fix a problem is one thing but I hate to say it, there are some in this country that express very thinly veiled glee at incidents like this that project Americans in a negative light - and then they do everything they can to somehow tie these activites in with Bush-Cheney.

Let's just be realistic here. 99.9% of American servicemen are decent, honorable individuals making tremendous sacrifices for our freedoms. But that 0.1% who happen to be scumbags aren't just going to disappear overnight depending on who is President.

[ConcordCowboy]

To this I would say, War is never going to be viewed as an OK thing. Now, I think it is important to understand that if you want to win in War, there are certain practices, certain things that are not ever going to be viewed positively from our populas. People often believe that the Military and/or the Government hide things from the American people for reasons of greed or control, many different reasons I suppose. Now, there is truth to this on many different occasions. I don't believe that this is the case here or in many instances when it comes to the security of our country. Our Government knows that what must be done to win a War will not be received well with our public. Americans are not ready to look at this thing from the view point of live or die. They look at it from the view point of Civil Human Rights and or Citizens Rights. These are not soldiers. They are terrorists. America has to come to the realization that if we want to Win this War, certain things will need to be done. Not saying there right. I'm saying that if we want to win, if we want to prevent American loss of life, these things are going to be used. We have to decide if we want to win or not.

If the answer is yes, then we can't devide ourselves on things like this. Take corrective action and move on with the War effort. If we don't want to win, then we need to end the War. Now, what does that mean? That means that you have to accept that things like 9/11 are probably going to happen again and possibly much worse. Americans will die on American soil and we can not committe troops to fight based on how outraged we are at the moment these attacks happen. If your going to fight, you have to fight to win or you have to shut up and take it.

There are no half measures. Either they die or we die. That's how it is.

Is it OK to rape people in the interest of National Security?

[ConcordCowboy]

so then - which is worse, getting raped or having your head cut off with a machette over time and the film placed on the internet?

just pick one please.

Just because one is worse than the other doesn't mean that the other is acceptable.

[Jordan55]

Concord is just like suspect and VC and wants to believe the worst.


You have to remember Concord, is in the minority, he is one of the very few who watch Keith Olbermann, not only does he admit to it, but relishes his every word. He despised the last adminsitration, which he percieves caused the economic hardship for his Buckeye state, it couldn't have been a Democratic President, who pushed and passed the Nafta bill, oh no that wouldn't have effected the employment situation in his state.
My question to him would be, Why he would cherish releasing documents that are over 5 years old, the perpetrators have been tried and punished for their acts and said documents would only subject this country again in a negative light and put our troops in harms way. What does he hope to gain by doing so?

I'm all ears and eyes.

[zrinkill]

Is it OK to rape people in the interest of National Security?

Nope

is it OK to Rape in the interest of National Security?

Nope

Just because one is worse than the other doesn't mean that the other is acceptable.

Agreed

Now will you admit that it has not been proven that this even happened ..... but that the "head cut off" stuff has?

[ConcordCowboy]

You have to remember Concord, is in the minority, he is one of the very few who watch Keith Olbermann, not only does he admit to it, but relishes his every word. He despised the last adminsitration, which he percieves caused the economic hardship for his Buckeye state, it couldn't have been a Democratic President, who pushed and passed the Nafta bill, oh no that wouldn't have effected the employment situation in his state.
My question to him would be, Why he would cherish releasing documents that are over 5 years old, the perpetrators have been tried and punished for their acts and said documents would only subject this country again in a negative light and put our troops in harms way. What does he hope to gain by doing so?

I'm all ears and eyes.


Yet YOU used Richard Wolffe in an article to make a point for yourself.

Richard Wolffe is one of Olbermann's best buddies on Countdown.

Better check your sources next time because obviously Wolffe is full of BS because I got news for you...he's in line with Olbermann. :laugh2:

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153772

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x177/Diogenes2008/11142008/5RichardWolffe.jpg

[JBond]

Hey!!!! I just noticed VCdefector got himself banned while I was sick a few weeks ago.

There a story behind it or did the Mods just get tired of his stupid act?

I tried to PM you to see how your recovery was going. I had the same thing a couple of years ago. Took 4 surgeries and about 8 months to finally heal up completely. Best of luck to you. I remember it was miserable for quite a while.

[ConcordCowboy]

Now will you admit that it has not been proven that this even happened ..... but that the "head cut off" stuff has?

Yep...nothing has been proven.

I watched one of those beheading video's in 2004 and it was Horrific.

Those guys should be killed...as long as we're positive that that we got the right guys.

[zrinkill]

I tried to PM you to see how your recovery was going. I had the same thing a couple of years ago. Took 4 surgeries and about 8 months to finally heal up completely. Best of luck to you. I remember it was miserable for quite a while.

Thanks man .... I was lucky that I reacted well to the antibiotic cocktails they were giving me ...... no removal of tissue was required.

Just been weak as hell ..... my oldest son noticed it when I started back lifting weights last week.

Its on my leg ..... so it made wearing my dress uniform more uncomfortable than usual on Memorial Day.

[zrinkill]

Yep...nothing has been proven.

I watched one of those beheading video's in 2004 and it was Horrific.

Those guys should be killed...as long as we're positive that that we got the right guys.

No doubt.

And just for the record ...... if any of these rape accusations are true ..... they need to waterboard the guy (or girl) responsible while simultaneously introducing them to 18 inches of broomstick.
(I also feel the same way about terrorist who commit equally vile acts)

I have no stomach or mercy for rapist or cowardly murderers.

But I refuse to just believe this about our servicemen until actual evidence other than hearsay is shown.

[ABQCOWBOY]

That sounded like you were trying to justify it to me...If I'm wrong then I'm sorry.

I am only explaining, from personal knowledge and/or past experience what little I know. I have my personal beliefs on this issue and I am happy to discuss that if you would like to hear it.

I do not see eye to eye with you CC on many things. However, and I'm sure you know this, I do like you as a poster and I do respect your contributions to this board/forum.

In the end CC, as a Nation, I honestly believe that we have to make a decision on do we want to win? Understand, and let me just say this again, if the answer is yes, then you have to be willing to go to the lengths necessary to win. This is not an easy thing because it probably means that the American people have to accept certain practices that will be offensive to most people's perception of how America does things. Let me say that the perceptions common to most Americans is probably not consistant, probably not accurate with regards to how American Intelligence works and has worked for as long as we have had an American Intelligence service. I don't say this to support or futher any position. I simply say this because it is a true representation of historic behavior from our Government. It's a question of how information and Intelligence practices were kept from the general public. Ask yourself if you wanted to know this during WWII or Korea or Vietnam? These things did happen thou it may not have been widely known.

The other side is lets end this thing. Now, if you do this, then you have to be ready to deal with what consequences this could and probably would potentially bring. The problem, as I see it, is that our society will often times decide to embrace the path of least resistance, so to speak, but when the results of those choices produces a negative effect, we tend to try and hang people out to dry. We seldom ever look to ourselves and take responsability for choices made earlier. We can not afford to follow this practice, where this issue is concerned. If we say we are not going to do what might be required to force information, then we can not ask our military to risk their lives. We must end the War on Terror IMO and we must accept what comes from that.

It's not an easy question to deal with. I'm not sure that we were not better off when we were not nearly as aware of how our Intelligence Services worked. The burden of what the hard choices ment didn't way on Americans. Now it does and we all have to be ready to live with what positions we support. They both have consequences.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Is it OK to rape people in the interest of National Security?

I do not believe so but then again, the issue of rape has already been delt with. It was delt with 5 years ago. The question that I believe needs to be asked is, if this has already been delt with, why is it so important to bring this up again? Why is it so important to release the photos and essentially re-introduce the threat to our troops, to our country, why aid in comforting the enemy by the re-introduction of these issues that have already been delt with?

Lets also keep in mind that many of these accusations have not been proven.

[Viper]

Yep...nothing has been proven.

I watched one of those beheading video's in 2004 and it was Horrific.

Those guys should be killed...as long as we're positive that that we got the right guys.

When you say "right guys", are you talking about the ones who physically performed the act or are you referring to the "group" of extremest that believe this is the way?

[Jordan55]

Yet YOU used Richard Wolffe in an article to make a point for yourself.

Richard Wolffe is one of Olbermann's best buddies on Countdown.

Better check your sources next time because obviously Wolffe is full of BS because I got news for you...he's in line with Olbermann. :laugh2:

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153772

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x177/Diogenes2008/11142008/5RichardWolffe.jpg

So He and I and and a hell of a lot more think Joe Biden is an Idiot what's your point?

[ConcordCowboy]

I am only explaining, from personal knowledge and/or past experience what little I know. I have my personal beliefs on this issue and I am happy to discuss that if you would like to hear it.

I do not see eye to eye with you CC on many things. However, and I'm sure you know this, I do like you as a poster and I do respect your contributions to this board/forum.

In the end CC, as a Nation, I honestly believe that we have to make a decision on do we want to win? Understand, and let me just say this again, if the answer is yes, then you have to be willing to go to the lengths necessary to win. This is not an easy thing because it probably means that the American people have to accept certain practices that will be offensive to most people's perception of how America does things. Let me say that the perceptions common to most Americans is probably not consistant, probably not accurate with regards to how American Intelligence works and has worked for as long as we have had an American Intelligence service. I don't say this to support or futher any position. I simply say this because it is a true representation of historic behavior from our Government. It's a question of how information and Intelligence practices were kept from the general public. Ask yourself if you wanted to know this during WWII or Korea or Vietnam? These things did happen thou it may not have been widely known.

The other side is lets end this thing. Now, if you do this, then you have to be ready to deal with what consequences this could and probably would potentially bring. The problem, as I see it, is that our society will often times decide to embrace the path of least resistance, so to speak, but when the results of those choices produces a negative effect, we tend to try and hang people out to dry. We seldom ever look to ourselves and take responsability for choices made earlier. We can not afford to follow this practice, where this issue is concerned. If we say we are not going to do what might be required to force information, then we can not ask our military to risk their lives. We must end the War on Terror IMO and we must accept what comes from that.

It's not an easy question to deal with. I'm not sure that we were not better off when we were not nearly as aware of how our Intelligence Services worked. The burden of what the hard choices ment didn't way on Americans. Now it does and we all have to be ready to live with what positions we support. They both have consequences.

I do not believe so but then again, the issue of rape has already been delt with. It was delt with 5 years ago. The question that I believe needs to be asked is, if this has already been delt with, why is it so important to bring this up again? Why is it so important to release the photos and essentially re-introduce the threat to our troops, to our country, why aid in comforting the enemy by the re-introduction of these issues that have already been delt with?

Lets also keep in mind that many of these accusations have not been proven.


ABQ I may not agree with you on things but you are one of the most reasonable people here.

Those photo's should not be released.

[ConcordCowboy]

So He and I and and a hell of a lot more think Joe Biden is an Idiot what's your point?

The point is you constantly rip on Olbermann and me for watching him and think that everything that comes from Olbermann or Countdown is BS.

Yet Wolffe is a MAJOR contributer to Olbermann and Countdown as well as Rachel Maddow.

And here you are using him as proof that you are right.

He's on Olbermann...so he has to be full of it...yet since he supports you on this issue he's OK.

Yet when he's ripping Bush or Cheney or anyone else you don't think should be ripped on Olbermann he's an idiot.

Can't have it both ways.

[ConcordCowboy]

When you say "right guys", are you talking about the ones who physically performed the act or are you referring to the "group" of extremest that believe this is the way?

The guys who actually did the beheading.

[iceberg]

Just because one is worse than the other doesn't mean that the other is acceptable.

i did not say it was, did i?

i'm saying i find it odd people will go ape caca over again, 1 thing our military does, but they don't show the same emotion over much worse crimes.

people have said "i don't care what they do, only what we do" and that's valid to a point, but we can't control what we do either can we? only show outrage?

i've heard many also upset with the muslem community for not showing outrage, but again, i seldom see *US* show that same sense of it being wrong regardless of who did it.

it comes down to cherry picking arguments again to me and i don't find a lot of value in that.

[ConcordCowboy]

Yep...nothing has been proven.

I watched one of those beheading video's in 2004 and it was Horrific.

Those guys should be killed...as long as we're positive that that we got the right guys.

i did not say it was, did i?

i'm saying i find it odd people will go ape caca over again, 1 thing our military does, but they don't show the same emotion over much worse crimes.
people have said "i don't care what they do, only what we do" and that's valid to a point, but we can't control what we do either can we? only show outrage?

i've heard many also upset with the muslem community for not showing outrage, but again, i seldom see *US* show that same sense of it being wrong regardless of who did it.

it comes down to cherry picking arguments again to me and i don't find a lot of value in that.

Well I think me saying I want to kill them is about as far as I can go.

[Rampage]

a terrorist got raped. who cares?

[Viper]

The guys who actually did the beheading.

Do you believe these are criminal acts or acts of war...consider the towers as part of their "acts".

[ConcordCowboy]

Do you believe these are criminal acts or acts of war...consider the towers as part of their "acts".

I don't care what you call them...if you happen to catch those specific guys...kill them.

Now the chances of getting those exact guys is probably slim to none.

[Yoshimitsu]

This happens all the time. From intelligence agencies down to the military. Every government on this earth does this to get information out of the prisoners. What do you think they do give the prisoners a lollipop and ask nicely for info?

[ABQCOWBOY]

I don't care what you call them...if you happen to catch those specific guys...kill them.

Now the chances of getting those exact guys is probably slim to none.

And that's the rub.

Do you go about your business, knowing your probably never going to get the guys who did it or do you send a message to others who might consider following in their footsteps?

It's the central question in a war on terrorisam.

[Jordan55]

The point is you constantly rip on Olbermann and me for watching him and think that everything that comes from Olbermann or Countdown is BS.

Yet Wolffe is a MAJOR contributer to Olbermann and Countdown as well as Rachel Maddow.

And here you are using him as proof that you are right.

He's on Olbermann...so he has to be full of it...yet since he supports you on this issue he's OK.

Yet when he's ripping Bush or Cheney or anyone else you don't think should be ripped on Olbermann he's an idiot.

Can't have it both ways.

At least I keep an open mind, and I agreed with the article, Joe Biden is a buffoon

How can I argue with that Statement:lmao2: You never did answer my question in I my initial post, How is releasing these Photo's that are over 5 years old going to benefit us as nation around the world, what satisfaction are you looking for?

[ConcordCowboy]

Those photo's should not be released.

At least I keep an open mind, and I agreed with the article, Joe Biden is a buffoon

How can I argue with that Statement:lmao2: You never did answer my question in I my initial post, How is releasing these Photo's that are over 5 years old going to benefit us as nation around the world, what satisfaction are you looking for?

Yeah remember that open mind when I post something from Olbermann that Wolffe contibuted to...cause I'm going too.

[DFWJC]

Terribly shameful, if true. Just a disgusting abuse of power, dignity and human rights.

I hope those photographs never get released.

Assuming this is true, I fully agree on both of your points.

It's really hard to imagine what level of sick moron it would take to do this kind of thing...and photograph it.

Obviously with already 5 years of persecution over this junk, there is no gain that can be made by anyone (except those that hate us) to release the photos.

Let's exaggerate and say nearly 50 people were involved in this garbage. Then assume about 500,000 (but probably a million or more) soldiers total have passed through Iraq in the six years of this war. So one out every 10,000 American soldiers (or contractors) were involved in this. Just some perspective. No excuse still.

One more point. We can be fairly certain that what went on at Abu Ghraib is nothing (or at most similar)compared to what went on in previous wars. There is just 10 (or 100?) times more exposure now and everyone seems to have some sort of camera. What administration was is power has nothing to do with what went on at Abu Ghraib, imo. That 1 in 10,000 terrible, idiot soldier does not operate along party lines and there is no possible way George Bush condoned that (fill in an expletive) that occurred at AG.

[Jordan55]

Yeah remember that open mind when I post something from Olbermann that Wolffe contibuted to...cause I'm going too.


I have no doubt:D Do you consider any other sources of enlightenment?
You might want to, but if feel you must do your part to support the Obama network it's America it's your right.

How's that Democratic stimulus package working out for the folks in Ohio? because the Messiah thinks were about to turn the corner, yeah right:confused:

[ConcordCowboy]

I have no doubt:D Do you consider any other sources of enlightenment?
You might want to, but if feel you must do your part to support the Obama network it's America it's your right.

How's that Democratic stimulus package working out for the folks in Ohio? because the Messiah thinks were about to turn the corner, yeah right:confused:

Look Honestly I watch Olbermann a couple times a week.

He's not gosple...and he can go over the top.

But I enjoy his show...because he'll go deeper on a subject or do stories on things the nightly news never would.

The stimulus package has helped I'm sure as much as the one we got from Bush.

But I give Bush props for giving me my $600 up front.

[ConcordCowboy]

And that's the rub.

Do you go about your business, knowing your probably never going to get the guys who did it or do you send a message to others who might consider following in their footsteps?

It's the central question in a war on terrorisam.

Well I'm not for killing people that I don't know if they did something for sure or not.

If I know for sure we got the guys who beheaded the guy I saw in the video then they should kill them.

I'm not for killing someone just to send a message.

[iceberg]

Well I'm not for killing people that I don't know if they did something for sure or not.

If I know for sure we got the guys who beheaded the guy I saw in the video then they should kill them.

I'm not for killing someone just to send a message.

they are.

in the end it's not really fair to compare the two - i did and looking back, my bad. no one in their right mind wants to see anyone beheaded. i'd dare say any of us would try to stop it if we were in a position to do so. some even at the risk of our own lives perhaps.

but i daresay if anyone in here saw the rapes happening, we'd stop that too. i think it is fair to say all sides think both is wrong. but we worry about our image and rep in the world while they don't.

advantage them. (beheading vs. toreture and things like that).

rape is and always will be wrong in my book. so when we argue that it happens and people choose sides, i can pretty much tell you before anyone takes a side which side they will go to.

but it usually feeds up to larger topics as to date no one has said rape is ok or should be accepted - only whether or not it's a huge issue for someone based on other world events we can compare them to - whether we should or not i suppose.

so what is the *real* point we are arguing if not whether or not rape is acceptable?

[ConcordCowboy]

they are.

in the end it's not really fair to compare the two - i did and looking back, my bad. no one in their right mind wants to see anyone beheaded. i'd dare say any of us would try to stop it if we were in a position to do so. some even at the risk of our own lives perhaps.

but i daresay if anyone in here saw the rapes happening, we'd stop that too. i think it is fair to say all sides think both is wrong. but we worry about our image and rep in the world while they don't.

advantage them. (beheading vs. toreture and things like that).

rape is and always will be wrong in my book. so when we argue that it happens and people choose sides, i can pretty much tell you before anyone takes a side which side they will go to.

but it usually feeds up to larger topics as to date no one has said rape is ok or should be accepted - only whether or not it's a huge issue for someone based on other world events we can compare them to - whether we should or not i suppose.

so what is the *real* point we are arguing if not whether or not rape is acceptable?



To me if you say it's acceptable then that's the same as saying it's OK.

[Jordan55]

Look Honestly I watch Olbermann a couple times a week.

He's not gosple...and he can go over the top.

But I enjoy his show...because he'll go deeper on a subject or do stories on things the nightly news never would.

The stimulus package has helped I'm sure as much as the one we got from Bush.

But I give Bush props for giving me my $600 up front.

Concord your ok in my books I don't care what the rest say about you:D
At least you have a slight sense of humor, vey slight:laugh2:

[iceberg]

To me if you say it's acceptable then that's the same as saying it's OK.

ok. so who said it was acceptable?

show me 1 person who said it was acceptable?

fyi - saying it happens does NOT equal acceptable.

[DFWJC]

The Obama administration is "strongly" denying that these rape allegations took place.

Having given this some thought, I now think this could be an end-around strategy by those wanting full disclosure to use the London press to force Obama's hand. If you make the allegations so very bad (even if they are false) you may cause the evidence to be released just so the US can exonerate itself of the false accusations...while also condemning itself of all the other stuff.

[Viper]

And that's the rub.

Do you go about your business, knowing your probably never going to get the guys who did it or do you send a message to others who might consider following in their footsteps?

It's the central question in a war on terrorisam.

I too believe it's the central question, without knowing how to approach the problem we will all just beat our heads to find a solution.

[Viper]

I don't care what you call them...if you happen to catch those specific guys...kill them.

Now the chances of getting those exact guys is probably slim to none.

I think you just gave a "cop out" answer. Without knowing how to approach this we will be lost. You want something done, but you are unsure how to accomplish the task.

[ConcordCowboy]

but it usually feeds up to larger topics as to date no one has said rape is ok or should be accepted - only whether or not it's a huge issue for someone based on other world events we can compare them to - whether we should or not i suppose.

so what is the *real* point we are arguing if not whether or not rape is acceptable?



ok. so who said it was acceptable?

show me 1 person who said it was acceptable?

fyi - saying it happens does NOT equal acceptable.

You asked that question.

I was just saying to me if you say it's acceptable...you're saying it's OK.

I didn't say anyone said it's acceptable.

[iceberg]

You asked that question.

I was just saying to me if you say it's acceptable...you're saying it's OK.

I didn't say anyone said it's acceptable.

so i ask again - what is the point of the argument then if no one said it was?

[ConcordCowboy]

I think you just gave a "cop out" answer. Without knowing how to approach this we will be lost. You want something done, but you are unsure how to accomplish the task.

I think I've been very clear how I feel.

If you know beyond the shadow of a doubt that someone has done something like KSM or Bin-Laden...I have no problem waterboarding them even if it's just punitive.

If you don't know beyond the shadow of doubt...you don't do it.

Period.

Now when I saw those guys behead than man...I said right then I would kill them if I could.

Therefore if I caught those guys...I would kill them. No problem.

But I'm not going to go out and kill someone that had nothing to do with it just to send a message.

[iceberg]

But I'm not going to go out and kill someone that had nothing to do with it just to send a message.

again, they will.

so if you and i can agree killing to send a message is a bad bad thing, then that means we're dealing with bad bad people beyond reason.

gets ugly there.

[ConcordCowboy]

so i ask again - what is the point of the argument then if no one said it was?

I read your post wrong and thought you were saying something that you weren't.

Sorry.

[ConcordCowboy]

again, they will.

so if you and i can agree killing to send a message is a bad bad thing, then that means we're dealing with bad bad people beyond reason.

gets ugly there.

And here we are.

[iceberg]

I read your post wrong and thought you were saying something that you weren't.

Sorry.

all good. it's a habit of mine sometimes. : )

[iceberg]

And here we are.

nice return volly.

[Viper]

I think I've been very clear how I feel.

If you know beyond the shadow of a doubt that someone has done something like KSM or Bin-Laden...I have no problem waterboarding them even if it's just punitive.

If you don't know beyond the shadow of doubt...you don't do it.

Period.

Now when I saw those guys behead than man...I said right then I would kill them if I could.

Therefore if I caught those guys...I would kill them. No problem.

But I'm not going to go out and kill someone that had nothing to do with it just to send a message.


Essentially you are saying it should be treated as criminal activity. This is where we differ, I believe it's an act of war. I don't believe the military should be used as the worlds police force "not saying you do". I'm very curious though, how would you purpose bringing the ones who committ these criminal acts to justice? I ask because I do enjoy learning how others think, as much as I disagree with silverbear, there are times I find myself agreeing with him.

[iceberg]

Essentially you are saying it should be treated as criminal activity. This is where we differ, I believe it's an act of war. I don't believe the military should be used as the worlds police force "not saying you do". I'm very curious though, how would you purpose bringing the ones who committ these criminal acts to justice? I ask because I do enjoy learning how others think, as much as I disagree with silverbear, there are times I find myself agreeing with him.

hey now! i agreed with SB once! it was right after he said it was time to leave. : )

KIDDING SB!!!! :eek:

[Viper]

hey now! i agreed with SB once! it was right after he said it was time to leave. : )

KIDDING SB!!!! :eek:

It's scary, ain't it...:eek:

[ConcordCowboy]

Essentially you are saying it should be treated as criminal activity. This is where we differ, I believe it's an act of war. I don't believe the military should be used as the worlds police force "not saying you do". I'm very curious though, how would you purpose bringing the ones who committ these criminal acts to justice? I ask because I do enjoy learning how others think, as much as I disagree with silverbear, there are times I find myself agreeing with him.

You mean how I would catch them or how I would treat them after I caught them?

[Viper]

You mean how I would catch them or how I would treat them after I caught them?

Well, we already know you would kill and waterboard them...:D . Seriously, how would you go about capturing or bringing these criminals to justice?

[Viper]

Honestly, I believe our polititions in Wash agree on more than the people do. The difference in Washington is who is welding the power to do it. I said this along time ago on this board, nothing will change once the DEM's gain the power they want. The only change will be...this is the right thing to do now.

[ConcordCowboy]

Well, we already know you would kill and waterboard them...:D . Seriously, how would you go about capturing or bringing these criminals to justice?

To me this is what we have Special Forces for.

I'm not talking about fighting the whole war with them...but get them all together and let them get these people if at all possible.

Now they do have people doing this but I would increase their numbers as much as possible.

How they went about it is up to them...outside of torture. :D

[ConcordCowboy]

http://www.davesmoviereviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/rambo_3-3.jpg...Bin-Laden...We're coming to get you!

[Viper]

To me this is what we have Special Forces for.

I'm not talking about fighting the whole war with them...but get them all together and let them get these people if at all possible.

Now they do have people doing this but I would increase their numbers as much as possible.

How they went about it is up to them...outside of torture. :D

Sometimes I think people in America have idea's about our military that just aren't based on reality. If we relied only on SF, we would end up with another Somalia. As great as I believe our SF is, it still needs logistical support. It's not a police force for the world to be sacrificed. Would I like to see them used more, yeah...the thing is, you and I have no idea how much they are already being used. Most of their operations quietly go unnoticed.

[Viper]

How they went about it is up to them...outside of torture. :D

We have already determined you are for torture, as long as we torture the right people. Don't change on me now...:D

[ConcordCowboy]

Sometimes I think people in America have idea's about our military that just aren't based on reality. If we relied only on SF, we would end up with another Somalia. As great as I believe our SF is, it still needs logistical support. It's not a police force for the world to be sacrificed. Would I like to see them used more, yeah...the thing is, you and I have no idea how much they are already being used. Most of their operations quietly go unnoticed.

Well like I said...I don't expect our SF to fight the whole war, I just think that in that area of the world...the more you have the better chance you have to catch these individual guys.

Would it work...who knows.

We have already determined you are for torture, as long as we torture the right people. Don't change on me now...:D

Maybe I need to adopt the Military's policy on gay's when it comes to torture.

Don't ask...Don't tell.

:D

[ABQCOWBOY]

What do you do when your faced with a situation that is unavoidable? What do you do when your faced with a situation that makes you play by rules you are not comfortable playing with? Rules that go against your sensabilities? Typically, most people in America choose not to play. We simply walk away from that situation and we find other situations that fit our sensabilities. That's a tough one isn't it.

The War on terrorisam is unlike any War this country has ever fought. It's a War that makes you play by rules most Americans don't like. We don't like how it works and the decisions it forces us to make. It's not how most of us grew up thinking or accepting. Unfortunatly, and history will bear this out, terrorisam is not something we will be able to walk away from. If we walk away, they will strike while our backs are turned. The goal is not to win, so to speak. The goal of terrorisam is to create fear and histeria. To force people into agreement on things they would never ever consider agreeing to under any other circumstances.

Imagine, if you will, a person walking up to any one of you with a knife and telling you to chop your thumb off. No sane person would ever consider following those instructions. However, lets change the situation a bit and say that this same person held a gun to your childs head and told you that either you would agree to chop your own thumb off or your child would die. This is how terrorisam works.

If we turn our backs and walk away from the game because the rules affend our sensabilities so much we can't abide, then you have to accept the fact that terrorisam is going to cost our country in ways we can only imagine.

Because the goal is to generate terror, you must also understand that a human becomes conditioned to certain things. Things like seeing people blown up, seeing people shot dead, torture, all manner of brutality. I know it's hard to believe but it's true. Not saying it's a good thing but it is a natural adaptive response that is hard wired into human beings. Those who can not adapt snap and those who can do. Why am I going into this? Because the goal of terrorisam is to create fear. When our Nation becomes conditioned to the terrorist activities being used on us, the terrorist will use ever more horrific tactics to generate the fear and histeria that must be present if terrorisam is to work. Your not just opening yourself up to increased attacks on our people, your inviting ever increasing levels of brutality. It is a life lived in fear.

So, what do we do? Do we live in fear? Do we simply pay off our attackers in the hopes that they will not kill us? That is essentially what this is right? Do we, as a Nation, understand that the decisions we are going to have to make will seem foreign to us, even wrong at times, but press on with the understanding that if we are going to win a War on Terrorisam, we are going to have to sacrafice cert things in order to reach our goal.

Now, some of you may view this as betraying principles in exchange for victory. Some may believe that it is not worth the price we would have to pay. I understand this but those of you who believe this must also understand that these priciples can and will cost the lives of you or your family memebers or perhaps your friends. Eventually, it will touch you in a way that is very direct and personal. It has to eventually. This is what you are accepting by holding true to your principles.

I will share something with all of you. The day I saw those planes fly into the World Trade Center buildings in NY, I watched and I cried just a little bit. Not because I new that our people were dying, thou that would certainly be reason enough, but because I knew that an American way of life had just died. I knew that my children and the children of millions of other Americans would never be the same. I new right then and there that America had lost her innocense as a Nation and things would never be able to go back to how they were. I new that my children would grow up in a very different reality. Now, some may think that all of this is a bit too overboard and maybe it is. Maybe I'm putting too much into this thing but I don't believe this to be the case. In my life, I have seen how terrorisam works in other countries and I know how it effects people if accepted rather then irraticated. I know that in order to defeat terrorisam, you have to accept the fact that certain things are going to have to be done and those who are fighting that War will need to be supported. We can't tear down our soldiers or our Intelligence Services or our Government for decisions made in attempts to win this War. These things are distastful, they are brutal and they offend our sensabilities. These are not things that we were taught as right in Sunday School.

We all have to get used to the fact that this War is not like other Wars. We have to make a fundamental decision on if we want to Win or if we will accept living under the threat of Terrorisam. I do not believe that there is any middle ground here. We die or they die. I just think that this is how it is and that's unfortunate for us but there it is.

[JBond]

What do you do when your faced with a situation that is unavoidable? What do you do when your faced with a situation that makes you play by rules you are not comfortable playing with? Rules that go against your sensabilities? Typically, most people in America choose not to play. We simply walk away from that situation and we find other situations that fit our sensabilities. That's a tough one isn't it.

The War on terrorism is unlike any War this country has ever fought. It's a War that makes you play by rules most Americans don't like. We don't like how it works and the decisions it forces us to make. It's not how most of us grew up thinking or accepting. Unfortunately, and history will bear this out, terrorism is not something we will be able to walk away from. If we walk away, they will strike while our backs are turned. The goal is not to win, so to speak. The goal of terrorism is to create fear and hysteria. To force people into agreement on things they would never ever consider agreeing to under any other circumstances.

Imagine, if you will, a person walking up to any one of you with a knife and telling you to chop your thumb off. No sane person would ever consider following those instructions. However, lets change the situation a bit and say that this same person held a gun to your child's head and told you that either you would agree to chop your own thumb off or your child would die. This is how terrorism works.

If we turn our backs and walk away from the game because the rules offend our sensibilities so much we can't abide, then you have to accept the fact that terrorism is going to cost our country in ways we can only imagine.

Because the goal is to generate terror, you must also understand that a human becomes conditioned to certain things. Things like seeing people blown up, seeing people shot dead, torture, all manner of brutality. I know it's hard to believe but it's true. Not saying it's a good thing but it is a natural adaptive response that is hard wired into human beings. Those who can not adapt snap and those who can do. Why am I going into this? Because the goal of terrorism is to create fear. When our Nation becomes conditioned to the terrorist activities being used on us, the terrorist will use ever more horrific tactics to generate the fear and hysteria that must be present if terrorism is to work. Your not just opening yourself up to increased attacks on our people, your inviting ever increasing levels of brutality. It is a life lived in fear.

So, what do we do? Do we live in fear? Do we simply pay off our attackers in the hopes that they will not kill us? That is essentially what this is right? Do we, as a Nation, understand that the decisions we are going to have to make will seem foreign to us, even wrong at times, but press on with the understanding that if we are going to win a War on Terrorism, we are going to have to sacrifice cert things in order to reach our goal.

Now, some of you may view this as betraying principles in exchange for victory. Some may believe that it is not worth the price we would have to pay. I understand this but those of you who believe this must also understand that these principles can and will cost the lives of you or your family members or perhaps your friends. Eventually, it will touch you in a way that is very direct and personal. It has to eventually. This is what you are accepting by holding true to your principles.

I will share something with all of you. The day I saw those planes fly into the World Trade Center buildings in NY, I watched and I cried just a little bit. Not because I new that our people were dying, thou that would certainly be reason enough, but because I knew that an American way of life had just died. I knew that my children and the children of millions of other Americans would never be the same. I new right then and there that America had lost her innocence as a Nation and things would never be able to go back to how they were. I new that my children would grow up in a very different reality. Now, some may think that all of this is a bit too overboard and maybe it is. Maybe I'm putting too much into this thing but I don't believe this to be the case. In my life, I have seen how terrorism works in other countries and I know how it effects people if accepted rather then eradicated. I know that in order to defeat terrorism, you have to accept the fact that certain things are going to have to be done and those who are fighting that War will need to be supported. We can't tear down our soldiers or our Intelligence Services or our Government for decisions made in attempts to win this War. These things are distasteful, they are brutal and they offend our sensibilities. These are not things that we were taught as right in Sunday School.

We all have to get used to the fact that this War is not like other Wars. We have to make a fundamental decision on if we want to Win or if we will accept living under the threat of Terrorism. I do not believe that there is any middle ground here. We die or they die. I just think that this is how it is and that's unfortunate for us but there it is.

Wow!. Well Done. I agree with your sentiments completely. I could not have come close to saying it as well as you did though.

[Sam I Am]

It's for things like this and murder that the Death Penalty exist for.

[Sam I Am]

We have already determined you are for torture, as long as we torture the right people. Don't change on me now...:D

I'm not against torture if that is what is required to get something of extreme importants done. (ie, protect people from being murder, etc) ...but to do it because you think it's funny or something like that should be punishable by death if that torture is of an extreme nature like ****** or mutilation.

[vta]

What do you do when your faced with a situation that is unavoidable? What do you do when your faced with a situation that makes you play by rules you are not comfortable playing with? Rules that go against your sensabilities? Typically, most people in America choose not to play. We simply walk away from that situation and we find other situations that fit our sensabilities. That's a tough one isn't it.

......Clipped for brevity......

We all have to get used to the fact that this War is not like other Wars. We have to make a fundamental decision on if we want to Win or if we will accept living under the threat of Terrorisam. I do not believe that there is any middle ground here. We die or they die. I just think that this is how it is and that's unfortunate for us but there it is.

Nicely put and absolutely true.

[SuspectCorner]

What do you do when your faced with a situation that is unavoidable? What do you do when your faced with a situation that makes you play by rules you are not comfortable playing with? Rules that go against your sensabilities? Typically, most people in America choose not to play. We simply walk away from that situation and we find other situations that fit our sensabilities. That's a tough one isn't it.

The War on terrorisam is unlike any War this country has ever fought. It's a War that makes you play by rules most Americans don't like. We don't like how it works and the decisions it forces us to make. It's not how most of us grew up thinking or accepting. Unfortunatly, and history will bear this out, terrorisam is not something we will be able to walk away from. If we walk away, they will strike while our backs are turned. The goal is not to win, so to speak. The goal of terrorisam is to create fear and histeria. To force people into agreement on things they would never ever consider agreeing to under any other circumstances.

Imagine, if you will, a person walking up to any one of you with a knife and telling you to chop your thumb off. No sane person would ever consider following those instructions. However, lets change the situation a bit and say that this same person held a gun to your childs head and told you that either you would agree to chop your own thumb off or your child would die. This is how terrorisam works.

If we turn our backs and walk away from the game because the rules affend our sensabilities so much we can't abide, then you have to accept the fact that terrorisam is going to cost our country in ways we can only imagine.

Because the goal is to generate terror, you must also understand that a human becomes conditioned to certain things. Things like seeing people blown up, seeing people shot dead, torture, all manner of brutality. I know it's hard to believe but it's true. Not saying it's a good thing but it is a natural adaptive response that is hard wired into human beings. Those who can not adapt snap and those who can do. Why am I going into this? Because the goal of terrorisam is to create fear. When our Nation becomes conditioned to the terrorist activities being used on us, the terrorist will use ever more horrific tactics to generate the fear and histeria that must be present if terrorisam is to work. Your not just opening yourself up to increased attacks on our people, your inviting ever increasing levels of brutality. It is a life lived in fear.

So, what do we do? Do we live in fear? Do we simply pay off our attackers in the hopes that they will not kill us? That is essentially what this is right? Do we, as a Nation, understand that the decisions we are going to have to make will seem foreign to us, even wrong at times, but press on with the understanding that if we are going to win a War on Terrorisam, we are going to have to sacrafice cert things in order to reach our goal.

Now, some of you may view this as betraying principles in exchange for victory. Some may believe that it is not worth the price we would have to pay. I understand this but those of you who believe this must also understand that these priciples can and will cost the lives of you or your family memebers or perhaps your friends. Eventually, it will touch you in a way that is very direct and personal. It has to eventually. This is what you are accepting by holding true to your principles.

I will share something with all of you. The day I saw those planes fly into the World Trade Center buildings in NY, I watched and I cried just a little bit. Not because I new that our people were dying, thou that would certainly be reason enough, but because I knew that an American way of life had just died. I knew that my children and the children of millions of other Americans would never be the same. I new right then and there that America had lost her innocense as a Nation and things would never be able to go back to how they were. I new that my children would grow up in a very different reality. Now, some may think that all of this is a bit too overboard and maybe it is. Maybe I'm putting too much into this thing but I don't believe this to be the case. In my life, I have seen how terrorisam works in other countries and I know how it effects people if accepted rather then irraticated. I know that in order to defeat terrorisam, you have to accept the fact that certain things are going to have to be done and those who are fighting that War will need to be supported. We can't tear down our soldiers or our Intelligence Services or our Government for decisions made in attempts to win this War. These things are distastful, they are brutal and they offend our sensabilities. These are not things that we were taught as right in Sunday School.

We all have to get used to the fact that this War is not like other Wars. We have to make a fundamental decision on if we want to Win or if we will accept living under the threat of Terrorisam. I do not believe that there is any middle ground here. We die or they die. I just think that this is how it is and that's unfortunate for us but there it is.

24Cowboy, in post after post you have rationalized actions that run entirely contrary to important and long-held American principles that contributed to our country's greatness and solid moral standing in the world community. You decry the release of the "Torture Memos" that exposed the dangerous thinking that precipitated our slide - but NOT the authors, NOR the irresponsible leaders who ordered the implementation of this disgraceful stain.

Your distorted vision of torture as having been a contributing factor in "winning" has been disputed time and time again by the various military and intelligence professionals who were directly involved in this lowpoint in our country's history. And now no less an authority than General Petraeus has come out stating, unequivocally, that torture and abuse represent a NET LOSS in our efforts to combat terrorism.

But now you've worked your way down to rationalizing that the rape and sexual degradation of prisoner-detainees should be tolerated, or will somehow diffuse a "ticking timebomb" - your pet scenario and the very crux of your entire flaccid argument for engaging in the act of torture and other various un-American inhumanities. (Nevermind that not one single example of your pet "24" plot device - torture having led to the derailment of an act of terror, murder, etc. - has ever been substantiated. NOT. ONE. And even if it ever did - GUESS WHAT? It's. Still. Torture. And there isn't a single US law permitting us to torture - they actually preclude of from engaging in the practice.)

We aren't and shouldn't be defined by our opinions on a single subject - and you are probably a good guy. But, honestly, your opinions on this subject leave me torn between contempt and pity.

[zrinkill]

your opinions on this subject leave me torn between contempt and pity.

That is ironic coming from an empty mouthpiece like you.

[iceberg]

your opinions on this subject leave me torn between contempt and pity.

should be home for you.

[SuspectCorner]

No, he's probably referring to your single minded ignorance of a truth.
You are aware that we have military bases in numerous countries? And further you realize that U.S. Soldiers had been accused of rape, under Clintons administration? Do a search for U.S. Soldiers, Rape, South Korea...

Yet, the level of indignation was never at such a fever pitch. Does who is in the White House really gauge a persons morality?

No one of sound mind finds any of this garbage appropriate or excusable. But there's also a fundamental understanding that evil is not indigenous to a place, or endemic to a for of government. We can highlight the ills of all men, from all walks of life and it won't really prop up much of an assertion except that in large part, humans are ****. It most certainly make your claims anymore valid. Let go of the partisan crap, they all do it.

Speaking of "ignorance' - let me now address YOUR whacked out post.

While it's certainly true that individual military personnel have committed crimes under ANY administration, including Clinton's) and that the US has bases established in nearly 130 countries - it's not exactly germane to the subject, now is it?

We are discussing reports of what appears to be systemic sexual abuse that occurred at Abu Ghraib. Reports that indicate either a criminal lack of oversight - or a policy in action. At what level that policy would have originated - nobody can say for sure right now. But I somehow doubt that I'm the only one who's interested to know the answer.

And that my faulting the Bush administration that had us in Iraq in the first place, and whose duty it was to see that operational commanders had legal orders and were providing oversight for that ****hole offends you? - I could give a rat's ***.

It was their watch - it was their invasion bought and sold with lies and US blood - it was their damn responsibility.

[iceberg]

Speaking of "ignorance' - let me now address YOUR whacked out post.

While it's certainly true that individual military personnel have committed crimes under ANY administration, including Clinton's) and that the US has bases established in nearly 130 countries - it's not exactly germane to the subject, now is it?

We are discussing reports of what appears to be systemic sexual abuse that occurred at Abu Ghraib. Reports that indicate either a criminal lack of oversight - or a policy in action. At what level that policy would have originated - nobody can say for sure right now. But I somehow doubt that I'm the only one who's interested to know the answer.

And that my faulting the Bush administration that had us in Iraq in the first place, and whose duty it was to see that operational commanders had legal orders and were providing oversight for that ****hole offends you? - I could give a rat's ***.

It was their watch - it was their invasion bought and sold with lies and US blood - it was their damn responsibility.

translated in brevity:
i don't give a damn it happened before and will happen after - i hate bush.

[vta]

Speaking of "ignorance' - let me now address YOUR whacked out post.

While it's certainly true that individual military personnel have committed crimes under ANY administration, including Clinton's) and that the US has bases established in nearly 130 countries - it's not exactly germane to the subject, now is it?

We are discussing reports of what appears to be systemic sexual abuse that occurred at Abu Ghraib. Reports that indicate either a criminal lack of oversight - or a policy in action. At what level that policy would have originated - nobody can say for sure right now. But I somehow doubt that I'm the only one who's interested to know the answer.

And that my faulting the Bush administration that had us in Iraq in the first place, and whose duty it was to see that operational commanders had legal orders and were providing oversight for that ****hole offends you? - I could give a rat's ***.

It was their watch - it was their invasion bought and sold with lies and US blood - it was their damn responsibility.

It most certainly is relevant to the subject, you just simply wish you could form a line of demarcation, based on partisan favoritism to prop up your erroneous assertion that one party supports rape and torture, while another has a high-minded piety.

With such bias clouding your vision, any instance can appear as systemic protocol.

There's nothing whacked out about recognizing the whole, in favor of narrowing my view to an ideology.

[SuspectCorner]

It most certainly is relevant to the subject, you just simply wish you could form a line of demarcation, based on partisan favoritism to prop up your erroneous assertion that one party supports rape and torture, while another has a high-minded piety.

With such bias clouding your vision, any instance can appear as systemic protocol.

There's nothing whacked out about recognizing the whole, in favor of narrowing my view to an ideology.

Hello... what does political partisanship or ideology have to do with the sexual abuse charges emanating from the Abu Ghraib prison scandal? Or maybe we're just a tad overly sensitive and defensive because so much seems to have happened on your idol's watch - hmmmmm?

[iceberg]

Hello... what does political partisanship or ideology have to do with the sexual abuse charges emanating from the Abu Ghraib prison scandal? Or maybe we're just a tad overly sensitive and defensive because so much seems to have happened on your idol's watch - hmmmmm?

and how come you can dismiss these types of crimes in every other admin?

oh - case you hate bush and won't let go or let reason sink in. vta isn't even talking about bush - you are.

and you don't get it.

[burmafrd]

Suspect as usual tells half the story and ignores the rest so that it moves with his agenda.
I would recomend that those few stupid or gullible enough to beleive him should check some of the stories that came out in the mid to late 90's about problems in our military- under a democratic administration.
A little research is not hard.

lets face it - anyone who regularly uses Huffington as a source is pretty wacked out anyway.

[bbgun]

translated in brevity:
i don't give a damn it happened before and will happen after - i hate bush.

When Clinton blew up an aspirin factory in Africa and a Chinese embassy in the Balkans, it was the result of "bad intelligence." Bush's miscues, by contrast, are savagely mischaracterized as "lies." Behold the power of hate.

[SuspectCorner]

and how come you can dismiss these types of crimes in every other admin?

oh - case you hate bush and won't let go or let reason sink in. vta isn't even talking about bush - you are.

and you don't get it.

So point to where I've dismissed "these types of crimes in every other admin" - I'll be waiting.

My disdain for Bush has EVERYTHING to do with reason. vta is talking "partisan politics" and I'm talking about a specific CIC and administration that pushed for a criminal agenda of torture and detainee abuse that has dragged our country's name thru the mud and exposed our troops and citizens to further harm. That it happens to be the same administration that initiated a policy of preemptive war doesn't add to their luster with me either. And based on the last elections I'd say I'm not alone. But if you think Bush being a "Republican" is the central issue here - you're absolutely lost. Which would come as anything but a surprise.

[SuspectCorner]

Suspect as usual tells half the story and ignores the rest so that it moves with his agenda.
I would recomend that those few stupid or gullible enough to beleive him should check some of the stories that came out in the mid to late 90's about problems in our military- under a democratic administration.
A little research is not hard.

lets face it - anyone who regularly uses Huffington as a source is pretty wacked out anyway.

burm, anybody with more than half a brain reads your posts for laughs ONLY.

[SuspectCorner]

When Clinton blew up an aspirin factory in Africa and a Chinese embassy in the Balkans, it was the result of "bad intelligence." Bush's miscues, by contrast, are savagely mischaracterized as "lies." Behold the power of hate.

"Savagely mischaracterized"... please.

Propaganda, lies, "cooked" intel - call it what you want... but "miscues"? You REALLY have me laughing now.

[iceberg]

Speaking of "ignorance' - let me now address YOUR whacked out post.

While it's certainly true that individual military personnel have committed crimes under ANY administration, including Clinton's) and that the US has bases established in nearly 130 countries - it's not exactly germane to the subject, now is it?

clipping silliness

It was their watch - it was their invasion bought and sold with lies and US blood - it was their damn responsibility.

So point to where I've dismissed "these types of crimes in every other admin" - I'll be waiting.

My disdain for Bush has EVERYTHING to do with reason. vta is talking "partisan politics" and I'm talking about a specific CIC and administration that pushed for a criminal agenda of torture and detainee abuse that has dragged our country's name thru the mud and exposed our troops and citizens to further harm. That it happens to be the same administration that initiated a policy of preemptive war doesn't add to their luster with me either. And based on the last elections I'd say I'm not alone. But if you think Bush being a "Republican" is the central issue here - you're absolutely lost. Which would come as anything but a surprise.

you're choosing to stay focused on BAD BUSH LOOKIE HERE!
vta is saying all admins likely have their problem children and can show the past to prove it.
you say "stick to the topic man - BAD BUSH BAD BUSH!!!

no, i'm not surprised at all that once again commen sense eludes you.

[SuspectCorner]

you're choosing to stay focused on BAD BUSH LOOKIE HERE!
vta is saying all admins likely have their problem children and can show the past to prove it.
you say "stick to the topic man - BAD BUSH BAD BUSH!!!

no, i'm not surprised at all that once again commen sense eludes you.

If you're citing those two posts to indicate some kind of connection between the singular incidences of rape or other crimes that occur under ANY administration and the apparent systemic criminal behavior of Abu Ghraib - you have FAILED... miserably.

[iceberg]

If you're citing those two posts to indicate some kind of connection between the singular incidences of rape or other crimes that occur under ANY administration and the apparent systemic criminal behavior of Abu Ghraib - you have FAILED... miserably.

oh i've failed all right.
at making you understand.

my bad.

by the way - YOU said to show you where you said it, so i did. man up and get the bush goggles off.

[bbgun]

"Savagely mischaracterized"... please.

Propaganda, lies, "cooked" intel - call it what you want... but "miscues"? You REALLY have me laughing now.

Sigh. I'll just copy and paste an old post of mine:

If you want to claim that Bush "lied," you have to believe that he was the most brilliant person in the world.
Everybody else, including intelligence agencies of the U.K.,France, Russia, etc., top Congressional Democrats on the intelligence committees, Hillary Clinton, the CIA, etc. believed that Saddam had WMDs. Need I post that Youtube video of Clinton Administration officials publicly proclaiming the very same thing? People view the "evidence" through very biased lenses. The simple fact is that, before the Iraq War started, virtually nobody disputed that Saddam had WMDs. The debate was how to deal with that, with the "doves" wanting sanctions (and more UN resolutions) and the "hawks" wanting to depose Saddam. If Bush "lied" or "misled," then so did every Senator who voted to authorize this war. After all, they (and Bush) were working with the very same intelligence collected by the CIA. If anything was "sexed up," the CIA did the sexing.

It's amazing the amount of sheer hate that Bush attackers show. Ordinary policy disagreements can't account for it. It's basically cultural. Bush is a conservative, a Christian and a Texan. That pushes all the buttons of the secular cultural left.

[ologan]

What do you do when your faced with a situation that is unavoidable? What do you do when your faced with a situation that makes you play by rules you are not comfortable playing with? Rules that go against your sensabilities? Typically, most people in America choose not to play. We simply walk away from that situation and we find other situations that fit our sensabilities. That's a tough one isn't it.

The War on terrorisam is unlike any War this country has ever fought. It's a War that makes you play by rules most Americans don't like. We don't like how it works and the decisions it forces us to make. It's not how most of us grew up thinking or accepting. Unfortunatly, and history will bear this out, terrorisam is not something we will be able to walk away from. If we walk away, they will strike while our backs are turned. The goal is not to win, so to speak. The goal of terrorisam is to create fear and histeria. To force people into agreement on things they would never ever consider agreeing to under any other circumstances.

Imagine, if you will, a person walking up to any one of you with a knife and telling you to chop your thumb off. No sane person would ever consider following those instructions. However, lets change the situation a bit and say that this same person held a gun to your childs head and told you that either you would agree to chop your own thumb off or your child would die. This is how terrorisam works.

If we turn our backs and walk away from the game because the rules affend our sensabilities so much we can't abide, then you have to accept the fact that terrorisam is going to cost our country in ways we can only imagine.

Because the goal is to generate terror, you must also understand that a human becomes conditioned to certain things. Things like seeing people blown up, seeing people shot dead, torture, all manner of brutality. I know it's hard to believe but it's true. Not saying it's a good thing but it is a natural adaptive response that is hard wired into human beings. Those who can not adapt snap and those who can do. Why am I going into this? Because the goal of terrorisam is to create fear. When our Nation becomes conditioned to the terrorist activities being used on us, the terrorist will use ever more horrific tactics to generate the fear and histeria that must be present if terrorisam is to work. Your not just opening yourself up to increased attacks on our people, your inviting ever increasing levels of brutality. It is a life lived in fear.

So, what do we do? Do we live in fear? Do we simply pay off our attackers in the hopes that they will not kill us? That is essentially what this is right? Do we, as a Nation, understand that the decisions we are going to have to make will seem foreign to us, even wrong at times, but press on with the understanding that if we are going to win a War on Terrorisam, we are going to have to sacrafice cert things in order to reach our goal.

Now, some of you may view this as betraying principles in exchange for victory. Some may believe that it is not worth the price we would have to pay. I understand this but those of you who believe this must also understand that these priciples can and will cost the lives of you or your family memebers or perhaps your friends. Eventually, it will touch you in a way that is very direct and personal. It has to eventually. This is what you are accepting by holding true to your principles.

I will share something with all of you. The day I saw those planes fly into the World Trade Center buildings in NY, I watched and I cried just a little bit. Not because I new that our people were dying, thou that would certainly be reason enough, but because I knew that an American way of life had just died. I knew that my children and the children of millions of other Americans would never be the same. I new right then and there that America had lost her innocense as a Nation and things would never be able to go back to how they were. I new that my children would grow up in a very different reality. Now, some may think that all of this is a bit too overboard and maybe it is. Maybe I'm putting too much into this thing but I don't believe this to be the case. In my life, I have seen how terrorisam works in other countries and I know how it effects people if accepted rather then irraticated. I know that in order to defeat terrorisam, you have to accept the fact that certain things are going to have to be done and those who are fighting that War will need to be supported. We can't tear down our soldiers or our Intelligence Services or our Government for decisions made in attempts to win this War. These things are distastful, they are brutal and they offend our sensabilities. These are not things that we were taught as right in Sunday School.

We all have to get used to the fact that this War is not like other Wars. We have to make a fundamental decision on if we want to Win or if we will accept living under the threat of Terrorisam. I do not believe that there is any middle ground here. We die or they die. I just think that this is how it is and that's unfortunate for us but there it is.

:hammer: :clap2:

[SuspectCorner]

oh i've failed all right.
at making you understand.

my bad.

by the way - YOU said to show you where you said it, so i did. man up and get the bush goggles off.

"Take off your goggles" said the man wearing blinders. :D

[arglebargle]

You conveniantly ignore the fact that politicians will often say whatever is useful for them at the moment. If it is useful to claim that Saddam had WMDs, then they will do so. It is just as true for these earlier claims as it was for the later ones.

I do recall the weapons inspectors seriously doubting a lot of these claims. Though Saddam did hoist himself on his petard by being secretive and obstructionist.

Regardless of your view on whether we should have gone into Iraq, there's a resonable expectation that it would be done competantly. That was not the case for 3 years. Not until Bush broke with the Cheney/Rumsfeld crew and appointed Petraeus to command the region. For which I do give him great kudos.

In military terms, we had Commanding Officers who only listened to the intel they already agreed with, proposed plans based on best case scenarios, and refused to consider any contingency planning, and actively discouraged and demoted anyone who had the temerity to disagree with them. Not the kind of officer I would want to serve under.

This ivory tower, fairy tale type management screwed things up royally and left a big mess. I think it is important that we analyze and learn from it, so we don't go there again. Hopefully.

[WarC]

Terribly shameful, if true. Just a disgusting abuse of power, dignity and human rights.

I hope those photographs never get released.


I agree with you on both points. There was a huge systematic breakdown of authority there, its ****** disgusting, and a total disgrace to our country. Those images would do tremendous damage to us, they would boost extremist recruiting and end up costing American lives. I believe those involved should receive harsh penalties - They committed war crimes.

[WarC]

While your rationalizations for the complete lack of Bush-Cheney oversight (at the very least) may satisfy you - they don't quite cut it for me. Not even close.

I believe burms right, I think those things would have happened under any administration. Stuff like this occurs in war time a lot. We just simply have to be better than that as soldiers and citizens of the USA.

[zrinkill]

translated in brevity:
i don't give a damn it happened before and will happen after - i hate bush.

:laugh2:

[arglebargle]

What do you do when your faced with a situation that is unavoidable? What do you do when your faced with a situation that makes you play by rules you are not comfortable playing with? Rules that go against your sensabilities? Typically, most people in America choose not to play. We simply walk away from that situation and we find other situations that fit our sensabilities. That's a tough one isn't it.

The War on terrorisam is unlike any War this country has ever fought. It's a War that makes you play by rules most Americans don't like. We don't like how it works and the decisions it forces us to make. It's not how most of us grew up thinking or accepting. Unfortunatly, and history will bear this out, terrorisam is not something we will be able to walk away from. If we walk away, they will strike while our backs are turned. The goal is not to win, so to speak. The goal of terrorisam is to create fear and histeria. To force people into agreement on things they would never ever consider agreeing to under any other circumstances.

Imagine, if you will, a person walking up to any one of you with a knife and telling you to chop your thumb off. No sane person would ever consider following those instructions. However, lets change the situation a bit and say that this same person held a gun to your childs head and told you that either you would agree to chop your own thumb off or your child would die. This is how terrorisam works.

If we turn our backs and walk away from the game because the rules affend our sensabilities so much we can't abide, then you have to accept the fact that terrorisam is going to cost our country in ways we can only imagine.

Because the goal is to generate terror, you must also understand that a human becomes conditioned to certain things. Things like seeing people blown up, seeing people shot dead, torture, all manner of brutality. I know it's hard to believe but it's true. Not saying it's a good thing but it is a natural adaptive response that is hard wired into human beings. Those who can not adapt snap and those who can do. Why am I going into this? Because the goal of terrorisam is to create fear. When our Nation becomes conditioned to the terrorist activities being used on us, the terrorist will use ever more horrific tactics to generate the fear and histeria that must be present if terrorisam is to work. Your not just opening yourself up to increased attacks on our people, your inviting ever increasing levels of brutality. It is a life lived in fear.

So, what do we do? Do we live in fear? Do we simply pay off our attackers in the hopes that they will not kill us? That is essentially what this is right? Do we, as a Nation, understand that the decisions we are going to have to make will seem foreign to us, even wrong at times, but press on with the understanding that if we are going to win a War on Terrorisam, we are going to have to sacrafice cert things in order to reach our goal.

Now, some of you may view this as betraying principles in exchange for victory. Some may believe that it is not worth the price we would have to pay. I understand this but those of you who believe this must also understand that these priciples can and will cost the lives of you or your family memebers or perhaps your friends. Eventually, it will touch you in a way that is very direct and personal. It has to eventually. This is what you are accepting by holding true to your principles.

I will share something with all of you. The day I saw those planes fly into the World Trade Center buildings in NY, I watched and I cried just a little bit. Not because I new that our people were dying, thou that would certainly be reason enough, but because I knew that an American way of life had just died. I knew that my children and the children of millions of other Americans would never be the same. I new right then and there that America had lost her innocense as a Nation and things would never be able to go back to how they were. I new that my children would grow up in a very different reality. Now, some may think that all of this is a bit too overboard and maybe it is. Maybe I'm putting too much into this thing but I don't believe this to be the case. In my life, I have seen how terrorisam works in other countries and I know how it effects people if accepted rather then irraticated. I know that in order to defeat terrorisam, you have to accept the fact that certain things are going to have to be done and those who are fighting that War will need to be supported. We can't tear down our soldiers or our Intelligence Services or our Government for decisions made in attempts to win this War. These things are distastful, they are brutal and they offend our sensabilities. These are not things that we were taught as right in Sunday School.

We all have to get used to the fact that this War is not like other Wars. We have to make a fundamental decision on if we want to Win or if we will accept living under the threat of Terrorisam. I do not believe that there is any middle ground here. We die or they die. I just think that this is how it is and that's unfortunate for us but there it is.

This is very eloquent. Hat's off to you, sir.

However...

We will never win a war against terrorism. Impossible. It is a tactic, and one which works. It will get used by various individuals, small groups, and large movements. Our only choice is how much freedom we give up for how much relative safety. That we should choose very carefully.

And I, personally, think the systemic endorsement of torture is a bad move on our country's part, and one that plays into the hands of our foes here. And apparantly, Petraeus thinks so too.

[vta]

Hello... what does political partisanship or ideology have to do with the sexual abuse charges emanating from the Abu Ghraib prison scandal? Or maybe we're just a tad overly sensitive and defensive because so much seems to have happened on your idol's watch - hmmmmm?

Where you prattle on about how this symptomatic of an administration and fail to recognize it's endemic of humanity, regardless of any governing body.

Do you really think a person will have a total change of nature and rape someone, based on such things?

I have no idols and don't respect a political party. You're the one focused on it as a political issue and not an issue of humans behaving badly; functioning within thinking it somehow validates your idolatry of a political ideology. It doesn't.

[burmafrd]

Suspect really does not realize how bad he looks= but his hatred of Bush (he is just like most of the other hard left wacko's)is so important to him that he has this NEED to blame him for everything. Kind of funny, in a pathetic way.

[CowboyMcCoy]

ITs absolutely true that if the photos show this and are released, US troops will be killed because of it. So there is no justification for doing it. Its not like the US has not been grilled and put over the coals because of Abu Ghraib.

Those who argue to advocate torture wanting to hide it and conceal it..... Which brings me to my argument the other day. We're supposed to be the advocates of justice, yet I guess what we do behind closed doors shouldn't be brought to light. That would make us hypocrites. Interesting reasoning.

[CowboyMcCoy]

Suspect really does not realize how bad he looks= but his hatred of Bush (he is just like most of the other hard left wacko's)is so important to him that he has this NEED to blame him for everything. Kind of funny, in a pathetic way.

And then there are the Bush lap dogs.

http://www.thespoof.com/sitepics/pdi/6407-2228Barney.jpg
"Barney".

It's clear to most of us who those are.

[iceberg]

Those who argue to advocate torture wanting to hide it and conceal it..... Which brings me to my argument the other day. We're supposed to be the advocates of justice, yet I guess what we do behind closed doors shouldn't be brought to light. That would make us hypocrites. Interesting reasoning.

did you even read what he said or were you too busy being clever for a dime?

[CowboyMcCoy]

did you even read what he said or were you too busy being clever for a dime?

You get paid more than a dime for making clever arguments if you're good enough at it. I was referring to the emphasis implied by the caps of NEED to blame Bush when it seems there are plenty who NEED to defend him, constantly.

[SuspectCorner]

Sigh. I'll just copy and paste an old post of mine:

If you want to claim that Bush "lied," you have to believe that he was the most brilliant person in the world.
Everybody else, including intelligence agencies of the U.K.,France, Russia, etc., top Congressional Democrats on the intelligence committees, Hillary Clinton, the CIA, etc. believed that Saddam had WMDs. Need I post that Youtube video of Clinton Administration officials publicly proclaiming the very same thing? People view the "evidence" through very biased lenses. The simple fact is that, before the Iraq War started, virtually nobody disputed that Saddam had WMDs. The debate was how to deal with that, with the "doves" wanting sanctions (and more UN resolutions) and the "hawks" wanting to depose Saddam. If Bush "lied" or "misled," then so did every Senator who voted to authorize this war. After all, they (and Bush) were working with the very same intelligence collected by the CIA. If anything was "sexed up," the CIA did the sexing.

It's amazing the amount of sheer hate that Bush attackers show. Ordinary policy disagreements can't account for it. It's basically cultural. Bush is a conservative, a Christian and a Texan. That pushes all the buttons of the secular cultural left.

That post was bunk THEN - are you still waiting for it to turn into wine?

The cherry picking and manipulation of intelligence by the BushCo Office of Special Plans (Rumsfeld & Wolfowitz) - with Cheny pressuring intelligence agencies to cook up anything and everything - is now a matter of record. There's the reason for your "sexed up" intel. It was pure dee crap and BushCo knew it - but they sold it to the international community, Congress, and the American people anyway. Only dedicated Bush apologists remain in denial about this.

Yes, most of the world (Russia, France, UN, Clinton) assumed Saddam had SOME weapons stockpiles - just not enough to be of consequence or represent a threat to US interests. BushCo was selling "slam dunk... massive stockpiles" DESPITE the intel - they manufactured their intel using an amalgum of unreliable sources. Have we ever had another US President create so much havoc thru their use and abuse of the US intelligence community? To suggest that BushCo was anything less than the engine driving the invasion of Iraq is asinine.

You can talk up your "secular cultural left" mumbo jumbo all you want. My dislike of Bush stems entirely from the fact that, as Presidents go, he was an utter POS.

[ScipioCowboy]

I must concede that I'm losing track of this discussion.

Are we debating the merits of 'enhanced interrogation techniques' only? How does rape factor into the discussion? I seriously doubt anyone would contend that rape could be deemed a legitimate method of interrogation.

[iceberg]

You get paid more than a dime for making clever arguments if you're good enough at it. I was referring to the emphasis implied by the caps of NEED to blame Bush when it seems there are plenty who NEED to defend him, constantly.

i'm not stupid because you can't understand me.

but i am damn happy you can't.

[SuspectCorner]

I must concede that I'm losing track of this discussion.

Are we debating the merits of 'enhanced interrogation techniques' only? How does rape factor into the discussion? I seriously doubt anyone would contend that rape could be deemed a legitimate method of interrogation.

Well, please dont tell that to 24Cowboy. He's appears to be wholly willing to overlook, rationalize, and condone ANY US BEHAVIOR - as long as he feels that behavior contributes to "winning".

[CowboyMcCoy]

i'm not stupid because you can't understand me.

but i am damn happy you can't.

It's called comprehensively reading a thread. You should try it.

[CowboyMcCoy]

I must concede that I'm losing track of this discussion.

Are we debating the merits of 'enhanced interrogation techniques' only? How does rape factor into the discussion? I seriously doubt anyone would contend that rape could be deemed a legitimate method of interrogation.

Rape falls under the principle of torture. Torture transcends rape. So it's logically inclusive.

[daschoo]

don't see how anyone can link this to who is president, and thats coming from someone who hates bush. would also say that i don't see anything positive coming of releasing the photos. rather than that which would act as recruitment propaganda for extremist muslim groups i would suggest you might be better making a show of prosecuting the offending parties to the full extent allowed for their horrendous crimes. if this was the course of action taken then in my opinion the perpatrators could have no complaints as in my mind they are scum for commiting such an act and would have been dealt with legally. also the great satan or whatever the extremists are calling your nation these days would be shown to deal harshly and fairly when their own commit terrible human rights abuses which i feel would hurt the recruitment drives for these groups

[burmafrd]

Certain posters on this board want more dead american soldiers and that is why they want the photo's released. They have this hypocritical piety about the truth being put out except that their posting record shows that that is always subject to their agenda=never 100%.

As regards to suspect and his repeatedly stomped on jokes about WMD in Iraq- did you notice how suddenly he admits there were SOME THERE after all despite all his previous posts over the last couple of years saying there were NONE THERE AT ALL?

Oh by the way Suspect the Russians thought he had a significant stockpile. As did the French, the Israeli's and the British. And just to give you a little knowledge that you clearly need badly, 1 155MM shell containing mustard can kill if dropped on a group of soldiers who are unprotected anywhere from 50-75 men if enhaled, and will permanently scare and injure the same if the droplets hit bare skin. And mustard is one of the most virulent cancer causing agents known to man.
Every year to this day some french farmers are killed or affected when digging up mustard shells from the first world war- 90 years ago now. Mustard can be dangerous for over a century after being manufactured. Quite a bit of Saddams chemical weapons were mustard.

[daschoo]

Oh by the way Suspect the Russians thought he had a significant stockpile. As did the French, the Israeli's and the British.

can't speak for the russians, israelis or the french but i know that here there was massive controversy when it emerged that the dossiers assessing iraqs wmd possesion and capability were ordered to be "sexed up" as the language used in the originals cast up too much doubt.

[CowboyMcCoy]

Certain posters on this board want more dead american soldiers and that is why they want the photo's released. They have this hypocritical piety about the truth being put out except that their posting record shows that that is always subject to their agenda=never 100%.


Certain posters on this board want ethical decisions to be made by our soldiers. If they can't hack acting ethically then they shouldn't be in the military. It's like when you get a cancer on the football team. But you don't have a good coach to weed out the Ryan Leaf's and Quincy Carters or else suffer the consequences. Setting the tone on a team is like setting the example of what a just country acts like. Not only was the invasion questionable. Our soldiers are apparently raping hostages from various places of the world in the name of national security. And while we set the example for freedom and the tone of the environment (no matter if there is photographic evidence or not) when our presidents seeks to hide these photos, we set a bad example for how we should be treated.

When we do this, we don't see them looking back at us. And whether they're from a different culture or not. This is where thinking begins. If we treat them like "animals", and assume they're not rational or have a sense of justice, we place a burden on ourselves by egotistically denying the reality of them looking at us, as we scramble to hide and defend these actions when we should be vehemently condemning it.

Ultimately our actions do have an effect, not just on dead American soldiers. But dead people. If you ask me, there's a fine line between those things. Sure, there really is no sense of true equality from anyone's perspective. It's the world the way we see it. If that were the case, we would all cease to be unique.

But to set our example by raping and torturing prisoners at a highly publicized prison, and to have the President, the country's executive who promised to close that prison try to hide it, is a slap in the face to our claim to be the advocates or the police of justice in the world.

We're somehow under an illusion of how the world should see us. When the reality is, if this same thing came from Al Jazeera or an Eastern newspaper we'd be ready to kill some people too. The photos don't really matter. The president is addressing it, so we can logically assume they exist and have a good chance of "leaking" out to the newspaper.

If there was good leadership in place at Abu Graib, this would not have happened.

Remember, we dropped a bomb on Hiroshima. Now we want nuclear peace talks. It would be possible, perhaps, be we have to set a better example, starting with our military.

[iceberg]

It's called comprehensively reading a thread. You should try it.

suspect will only discuss the rape that happened under bush so suspect can go BAD BUSH.

but to date i've seen no one say rape is ok.

i have no idea what the argument is except people who STILL need to bash bush to find validation in their own lives.

[trickblue]

Certain posters on this board want ethical decisions to be made by our soldiers. If they can't hack acting ethically then they shouldn't be in the military.

and certain posters want the exact same thing from our representatives in congress... yet the same ones that complain about the military, keep voting them right in there...

[SuspectCorner]

Certain posters on this board want more dead american soldiers and that is why they want the photo's released. They have this hypocritical piety about the truth being put out except that their posting record shows that that is always subject to their agenda=never 100%.

As regards to suspect and his repeatedly stomped on jokes about WMD in Iraq- did you notice how suddenly he admits there were SOME THERE after all despite all his previous posts over the last couple of years saying there were NONE THERE AT ALL?

Oh by the way Suspect the Russians thought he had a significant stockpile. As did the French, the Israeli's and the British. And just to give you a little knowledge that you clearly need badly, 1 155MM shell containing mustard can kill if dropped on a group of soldiers who are unprotected anywhere from 50-75 men if enhaled, and will permanently scare and injure the same if the droplets hit bare skin. And mustard is one of the most virulent cancer causing agents known to man.
Every year to this day some french farmers are killed or affected when digging up mustard shells from the first world war- 90 years ago now. Mustard can be dangerous for over a century after being manufactured. Quite a bit of Saddams chemical weapons were mustard.

You might wanna brush up on your history there, skippy. The intelligence services of Russia, Germany, France, the UK, and even Israel were NOT proclaiming that Iraq had WMD. Just that Iraq had failed to account for the totality of their former weapons programs - which meant they were unable to completely rule out the existence of SOME wmds. This may explain the opposition to invasion expressed by Russia, France, and Germany among so many others. They were in favor of extending UN weapons inspections. I think it was Putin who said something about an invasion based on the pretense of WMD would be like "looking for a black cat in a dark room - and the cat might not even be there."

The rough plans for an invasion of iraq were in place shortly after Bush took office - the administration just needed an opportunity to implement them. But I suppose you'll be completely unfamiliar with the Cheney Energy Task Force and documents/memos like "Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield Contracts". What a surprise.

No, your bag is more in the realm of shilling for wingnut schlock like "Saddams Yellowcake Discovered!" and "Obama Unable to Produce birth Certificate!"...

[ABQCOWBOY]

24Cowboy, in post after post you have rationalized actions that run entirely contrary to important and long-held American principles that contributed to our country's greatness and solid moral standing in the world community. You decry the release of the "Torture Memos" that exposed the dangerous thinking that precipitated our slide - but NOT the authors, NOR the irresponsible leaders who ordered the implementation of this disgraceful stain.

Your distorted vision of torture as having been a contributing factor in "winning" has been disputed time and time again by the various military and intelligence professionals who were directly involved in this lowpoint in our country's history. And now no less an authority than General Petraeus has come out stating, unequivocally, that torture and abuse represent a NET LOSS in our efforts to combat terrorism.

But now you've worked your way down to rationalizing that the rape and sexual degradation of prisoner-detainees should be tolerated, or will somehow diffuse a "ticking timebomb" - your pet scenario and the very crux of your entire flaccid argument for engaging in the act of torture and other various un-American inhumanities. (Nevermind that not one single example of your pet "24" plot device - torture having led to the derailment of an act of terror, murder, etc. - has ever been substantiated. NOT. ONE. And even if it ever did - GUESS WHAT? It's. Still. Torture. And there isn't a single US law permitting us to torture - they actually preclude of from engaging in the practice.)

We aren't and shouldn't be defined by our opinions on a single subject - and you are probably a good guy. But, honestly, your opinions on this subject leave me torn between contempt and pity.

I don't know if this is to me or not. You reference my post but you name 24Cowboy. I don't know if your speaking to me or not.

[iceberg]

You might wanna brush up on your history there, skippy. The intelligence services of Russia, Germany, France, the UK, and even Israel were NOT proclaiming that Iraq had WMD. Just that Iraq had failed to account for the totality of their former weapons programs - which meant they were unable to completely rule out the existence of SOME wmds. This may explain the opposition to invasion expressed by Russia, France, and Germany among so many others. They were in favor of extending UN weapons inspections. I think it was Putin who said something about an invasion based on the pretense of WMD would be like "looking for a black cat in a dark room - and the cat might not even be there."

The rough plans for an invasion of iraq were in place shortly after Bush took office - the administration just needed an opportunity to implement them. But I suppose you'll be completely unfamiliar with the Cheney Energy Task Force and documents/memos like "Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield Contracts". What a surprise.

No, your bag is more in the realm of shilling for wingnut schlock like "Saddams Yellowcake Discovered!" and "Obama Unable to Produce birth Certificate!"...

yea, now we're just taking over our own country instead and owning GM and forcing others to go backrupt so we can control their outcome.

gosh i'm much happier about our country today. are you ok with the moves this admin is making in this light or is it somehow excusable for president to fire CEO's and take over non-government businesses under the guise of "bailout"?

france, germany and russia all had their own deals under the table w/saddam but i see you leave that out. nice.

[arglebargle]

So, Ice, should I find the requisate picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam? Or the reports on the CIA giving Saddam information on his poison gas dispersal so he could calculate its useage better?

[zrinkill]

So, Ice, should I find the requisate picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam? Or the reports on the CIA giving Saddam information on his poison gas disbursal so he could calculate its useage better?


That would probably serve you better than your attempts to argue a point.

[JBond]

You might wanna brush up on your history there, skippy. The intelligence services of Russia, Germany, France, the UK, and even Israel were NOT proclaiming that Iraq had WMD. Just that Iraq had failed to account for the totality of their former weapons programs - which meant they were unable to completely rule out the existence of SOME wmds. This may explain the opposition to invasion expressed by Russia, France, and Germany among so many others.

Lets not forget the oil for food scandal. All the countries you listed were on the take from Saddam. Simple economics has more to do with their reluctance than any moral issue. They did not want to kill the golden goose that was lining their pockets.

[iceberg]

So, Ice, should I find the requisate picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam? Or the reports on the CIA giving Saddam information on his poison gas dispersal so he could calculate its useage better?

how about quit living in the past and let's focus on today? or do you need to kick around bush a lot more before you're done?

should i find books of "bad america" being handed to our president as a PR stunt?
should i find books that show how often the president fires CEOs? that will be pretty easy actually.

and whatever pics you can find - go ahead and find the stories of those countries having their own deals with saddam - of course they didn't want us to go get him out - WMD or not.

[arglebargle]

how about quit living in the past and let's focus on today? or do you need to kick around bush a lot more before you're done?

should i find books of "bad america" being handed to our president as a PR stunt?
should i find books that show how often the president fires CEOs? that will be pretty easy actually.

and whatever pics you can find - go ahead and find the stories of those countries having their own deals with saddam - of course they didn't want us to go get him out - WMD or not.


Being short sighted is not very advantageous. Handing out free passes because 'hey, it was done yesterday' is not a good idea. Problems don't go away immediately, and if you don't figure out how to deal with them they certainly won't. With Cheney blathering on to anyone who will listen that 'It worked!', you cannot have a discussion on the subject without examining what was done, was it a good idea, and whether it worked or not.

I hope you aren't really shocked at people in other countries having done under the table deals with Saddam. If so, welcome to the real world.


Now my best guess is that Obama wanted the pictures released as part of move to make sure we don't engage in systemic torture again. Those in the know, and Generals in the region went to him and told him he shouldn't do this, due to the danger to troops in the field, and due to the facts that the remaining pictures were much worse than anyone knew. The President made the decision that that was correct, and reversed his earlier position.

Personally, I think that was the right decision now. I also think systemic use of torture is a bad thing, and in this I am happy to be in the camp with Colin Powell and Petraeus vs the understandably biased Dick Cheney. Torture will always happen, but it should only happen as an abberration in the US, not as an accepted American technique. Pragmatically, it causes more trouble than its usefulness. Apparantly, in this also, Powell and Petraeus are in agreement.

During the trials of the Abu Ghreib crew, they pretty uniformly claimed that they were told by CIA and 'contract' interrogators to 'soften up' the prisoners. An excuse, of course, and an unjustifiable one. Why you would think that wasn't actually the case though, I don't know.

Those of you who have had much dealing with the US military know that when a stink goes up, there is always an attempt to keep the trauma at the lowest level possible. The lowest ranks possible will get to be scapegoats. While this sort of thing has to be rotten at least to battalion or regimental level. Those commanders are either in on it, or are incompetant. But when that directive is coming from the Executive Office, that's different.

[arglebargle]

should i find books that show how often the president fires CEOs? that will be pretty easy actually.

My opinion is that a lot of CEOs need firing. But since they all have the same interests and sit on one another's boards, it doesn't happen near often enough. Too much supercargo. :)

[zrinkill]

My opinion is that a lot of CEOs need firing. But since they all have the same interests and sit on one another's boards, it doesn't happen near often enough. Too much supercargo. :)

Of course they do ..... but that should not be the call of the Government.

DO you not see the danger in that? I would feel the same way if it was a Republican.

As a matter of fact I think its wrong when a President orders airline workers off strike. ( I think Reagan did it once)

[iceberg]

Being short sighted is not very advantageous. Handing out free passes because 'hey, it was done yesterday' is not a good idea. Problems don't go away immediately, and if you don't figure out how to deal with them they certainly won't. With Cheney blathering on to anyone who will listen that 'It worked!', you cannot have a discussion on the subject without examining what was done, was it a good idea, and whether it worked or not.

neither is constantly bashing people you don't like simply because you don't like them. i see no value there esp when they're out of the picture now. well, except for people who can't let go of hate.

I hope you aren't really shocked at people in other countries having done under the table deals with Saddam. If so, welcome to the real world.

damn. you're still here.

yes i'm very aware of it - but please don't parade those countries around like they had high moral values when it came to whether or not we should or should not invade iraq. we had our motives, they had theirs. but they were not the good guys on the block either so why you bring them up as "look, russia said they didn't have any!!!" because we both know russia probably didn't give a flip as long as they got what they wanted.


Those of you who have had much dealing with the US military know that when a stink goes up, there is always an attempt to keep the trauma at the lowest level possible. The lowest ranks possible will get to be scapegoats. While this sort of thing has to be rotten at least to battalion or regimental level. Those commanders are either in on it, or are incompetant. But when that directive is coming from the Executive Office, that's different.

take out military put in human nature, you get the same thing.

[iceberg]

My opinion is that a lot of CEOs need firing. But since they all have the same interests and sit on one another's boards, it doesn't happen near often enough. Too much supercargo. :)

fine. then they should be fired.

but not by our president. too much superego.

[arglebargle]

fine. then they should be fired.

but not by our president. too much superego.

Ouch....Touche!