Abortion doc George Tiller gunned down at church

[WoodysGirl]

By Roxana Hegeman, Associated Press Writer – 4 mins ago

WICHITA, Kan. – Late-term abortion doctor George Tiller, a prominent advocate for abortion rights wounded by a protester more than a decade ago, was shot and killed Sunday at a church in Wichita where he was serving as an usher and his wife was in the choir, his attorney said.

Tiller was shot during morning services at Reformation Lutheran Church, attorney Dan Monnat said. Police said a manhunt was under way for the shooter, who fled in a car registered to a Kansas City suburb nearly 200 miles away.

National anti-abortion groups had long focused on Tiller, one of the nation's few providers of late-term abortions. In 1991, the Summer of Mercy protests organized by Operation Rescue drew thousands of anti-abortion activists to this city for demonstrations marked by civil disobedience and mass arrests.

Some abortion opponents had resorted to attacks against Tiller and his Women's Health Care Services clinic long before Sunday's shooting. A protester shot Tiller in both arms in 1993, and his clinic was bombed in 1985.

Anti-abortion group Operation Rescue issued a statement denouncing the shooting.

"We are shocked at this morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down," said Troy Newman, Operation Rescue's president. "Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning."

Capt. Brent Allred said Wichita police were looking for a gunman who fled in a 1993 light blue Ford Taurus registered in the Kansas City suburb of Merriam, Kan. No other details about the shooting were immediately released.

The phone line at the home of Tiller and wife, Jeanne, had a busy signal Sunday.

Tiller began providing abortion services in 1973. He acknowledged abortion was as socially divisive as slavery or prohibition but said the issue was about giving women a choice when dealing with technology that can diagnose severe fetal abnormalities before a baby is born.

"Pre-natal testing without pre-natal choices is medical fraud," Tiller once said.

After the 1991 protests, Tiller kept mostly to his heavily guarded clinic, although in 1997 he opened it to three tours by state lawmakers and the media.

Tiller remained prominent in the news, in part because of an investigation started begun by former Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline, an abortion opponent.

Prosecutors had alleged that Tiller had gotten second opinions from a doctor who was essentially an employee of his, not independent as state law requires. A jury in March acquitted Tiller of all 19 misdemeanor counts.

Abortion opponents also questioned then-Gov. Kathleen Sebelius' ties to Tiller before the Senate confirmed her this year as U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary. Tiller donated thousands of dollars to Sebelius over the years.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_tiller_shooting

[lewpac]

WOW!

Don't miss O'Reilly tomorrow. He's been all over this Tiller guy for a few years now.

Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice................round 3,245 coming up.

[Jon88]

I can't believe the church allowed him to serve as an usher. Most churches wouldn't have anything to do with him.

[bbgun]

WOW!

Don't miss O'Reilly tomorrow. He's been all over this Tiller guy for a few years now.


Really? Then that's who the Left will no doubt blame for this murder.

[ninja]

1) No big loss. No one will miss this scumbag.

2) What was this baby killer doing in church? He Kill babies Mon. through Sat. and goes to church on Sun.? Why? No way any sane individual would do that. What a nutjob.

[DIAF]

1) No big loss. No one will miss this scumbag.

2) What was this baby killer doing in church? He Kill babies Mon. through Sat. and goes to church on Sun.? Why? No way any sane individual would do that. What a nutjob.

I was wondering how long it would be until someone posted something like this. 4 posts, took a lot longer than I thought.

Most abortion supporters don't think this is murder, they think its medicine and science. It's not as if to be pro-abortion you have to be crazy, or evil.

[JBond]

Not good. This will not help the battle of ideas. There are nuts on both sides.

[MetalHead]

1) No big loss. No one will miss this scumbag.

2) What was this baby killer doing in church? He Kill babies Mon. through Sat. and goes to church on Sun.? Why? No way any sane individual would do that. What a nutjob.

+1...

[bbgun]

Not good. This will not help the battle of ideas. There are nuts on both sides.

True. Last time I checked, cold-blooded murder was definitely the opposite of "pro-life."

[masomenos]

True. Last time I checked, cold-blooded murder was definitely the opposite of "pro-life."

I'm sure that the person who murdered Mr. Tiller believed that it was an act of pro-life through utilitarian justification. The act saved more lives than it took, therefor it's supporting life.

Not that I'm defending the killing.

[bbgun]

I'm sure that the person who murdered Mr. Tiller believed that it was an act of pro-life through utilitarian justification. The act saved more lives than it took, therefor it's supporting life.

Not that I'm defending the killing.

I make no distinction between abortion docs and mass murderers either, but we're still a nation of laws.

[Jon88]

1) No big loss. No one will miss this scumbag.

2) What was this baby killer doing in church? He Kill babies Mon. through Sat. and goes to church on Sun.? Why? No way any sane individual would do that. What a nutjob.

It made him feel better about what he did the other 6 days.

[WoodysGirl]

Official: Suspect in custody in Kan. abortion doc's slaying (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6450851.html)

By ROXANA HEGEMAN
Associated Press
May 31, 2009, 2:56PM

WICHITA, Kan. — Late-term abortion doctor George Tiller, a prominent advocate for abortion rights wounded by a protester more than a decade ago, was shot and killed Sunday at his church in Wichita, his attorney said.

A Wichita city official, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk publicly about the case, said a suspect was taken into custody later Sunday. The official would not provide additional details. Earlier, police had said they were looking for a gunman who fled in a 1993 light blue Ford Taurus registered in the Kansas City suburb of Merriam, Kan.

<snip>

[MetalHead]

Wichita police: Slaying at abortion doc’s church

By ROXANA HEGEMAN
Associated Press
May 31, 2009, 2:56PM

WICHITA, Kan. — Late-term abortion doctor George Tiller, a prominent advocate for abortion rights wounded by a protester more than a decade ago, was brought to justice Sunday at his church in Wichita, his attorney said.

A Wichita city official, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk publicly about the case, said a suspect was taken into custody later Sunday. The official would not provide additional details. Earlier, police had said they were looking for a gunman who fled in a 1993 light blue Ford Taurus registered in the Kansas City suburb of Merriam, Kan.

<snip>

Fixed.

[lewpac]

1) No big loss. No one will miss this scumbag.

2) What was this baby killer doing in church? He Kill babies Mon. through Sat. and goes to church on Sun.? Why? No way any sane individual would do that. What a nutjob.

I'm not "independent" on most issues and usually have a very hard line opinion. But, I'm neutral on the abortion issue. Largely because, each individual circumstance merits it's own judgment as far as I can tell. So I stay on the sidelines with regard to this powder-keg..........

That said, any action taken along these lines is pure vigilantism and wrong, as Roe vs. Wade is the law of the land. The crux of the issue usually is the line drawn between pure and extreme liberalism, and pure and extreme religious belief. I could tell what the Biblical version of abortion REALLY is, but I'm still stinging from 10 day recent ban. Needless to say, the party line "pro-life" religious sentiment is far removed from the truth.

Am I pro-abortion? Depends on the circumstance. I know what I'm NOT for sure, and that's taking matters into one's own hands and killing people over political or philosophical differences. If this technique were allowed and celebrated (as we've already seen here), then murder for disagreeing with the 55 MPH speed limit would be applauded. Because until further notice, it's the law.

One can pick an choose what laws they like or dislike. But that does not change those laws. If this were the case, we'd have nothing but chaos in this country. Marijuana use is probably the best example of this. Many people feel as though is should be legal and there's a "no harm, no foul" thing about it. Therefore, it's OK to smoke pot and should be no one's business buy their own................

If every law in this Country were approached like that, we'd have utter confusion and "Road Warrior" like conditions. Until further notice, abortion is legal in this country. Partial birth, third trimester, etc............it's legal, and we can't have people gunning down, in broad daylight, those they disagree with.

[Jon88]

Fixed.

LOL. I guess Karma is a you know what. That's just horrible what he did.

[MetalHead]

I'm not "independent" on most issues and usually have a very hard line opinion. But, I'm neutral on the abortion issue. Largely because, each individual circumstance merits it's own judgment as far as I can tell. So I stay on the sidelines with regard to this powder-keg..........

That said, any action taken along these lines is pure vigilantism and wrong, as Roe vs. Wade is the law of the land. The crux of the issue usually is the line drawn between pure and extreme liberalism, and pure and extreme religious belief. I could tell what the Biblical version of abortion REALLY is, but I'm still stinging from 10 day recent ban. Needless to say, the party line "pro-life" religious sentiment is far removed from the truth.

Am I pro-abortion? Depends on the circumstance. I know what I'm NOT for sure, and that's taking matters into one's own hands and killing people over political or philosophical differences. If this technique were allowed and celebrated (as we've already seen here), then murder for disagreeing with the 55 MPH speed limit would be applauded. Because until further notice, it's the law.

One can pick an choose what laws they like or dislike. But that does not change those laws. If this were the case, we'd have nothing but chaos in this country. Marijuana use is probably the best example of this. Many people feel as though is should be legal and there's a "no harm, no foul" thing about it. Therefore, it's OK to smoke pot and should be no one's business buy their own................

If every law in this Country were approached like that, we'd have utter confusion and "Road Warrior" like conditions. Until further notice, abortion is legal in this country. Partial birth, third trimester, etc............it's legal, and we can't have people gunning down, in broad daylight, those they disagree with.

That is a reasonable stance.
I consider myself a hardliner and won't try to hide it.
In the abortion issue there are justifiable reasons to terminate a pregnancy:
Rape.
Incest.
If the life of the mother is at risk.

Keep in mind that terminating a pregnancy has to be done in the VERY EARLY stages.
Late term is murder out right(just like that swine that got killed in Kansas),and if you don't believe me,I got some grotesque pictures to make my point.

[ThaBigP]

Even as a pro-lifer in general, this sux. Big time. Shot to death in church? Does this not play straight into the recent DHS report that said terroristic threats could be found in pro-lifers, 2nd Amendment supporters, and the like?

[daschoo]

That is a reasonable stance.
I consider myself a hardliner and won't try to hide it.
In the abortion issue there are justifiable reasons to terminate a pregnancy:
Rape.
Incest.
If the life of the mother is at risk.

Keep in mind that terminating a pregnancy has to be done in the VERY EARLY stages.
Late term is murder out right(just like that swine that got killed in Kansas),and if you don't believe me,I got some grotesque pictures to make my point.

i thought we were completely oppossed on this issue until i read this post. what you have just written was the point i was trying to get across in the saudi beheading thread. the only way you ever have to consider late termination in that criteria is if their are late developing health issues which would have to be considered on a case by case basis in my opinion.

i still have difficulty seeing the logic in someone murdering in the name of pro-life though.

[MetalHead]

i thought we were completely oppossed on this issue until i read this post. what you have just written was the point i was trying to get across in the saudi beheading thread. the only way you ever have to consider late termination in that criteria is if their are late developing health issues which would have to be considered on a case by case basis in my opinion.

i still have difficulty seeing the logic in someone murdering in the name of pro-life though.

A sick guy killed another sick guy.

[Bach]

I can't believe the church allowed him to serve as an usher. Most churches wouldn't have anything to do with him.

It depends on what type of church it is. Some churches actually have gay clergy. Those are basically more of a country-club, a church in name only.

[daschoo]

A sick guy killed another sick guy.

can't disagree with that

[ScipioCowboy]

We live in a country of laws; therefore, regardless of the morality of abortion, the shooter acted wrongfully and should be punished in accordance with the law.

[vta]

We live in a country of laws; therefore, regardless of the morality of abortion, the shooter acted wrongfully and should be punished in accordance with the law.

He will. They seemed to have snatched this jerk up pretty quick, considering how it happened.

This type of extremism isn't needed to make progress in any case. I doubt he even gives a crap about the issue.

[WoodysGirl]

Kan. abortion doc killed in church; suspect held
By Roxana Hegeman, Associated Press Writer – 7 mins ago

WICHITA, Kan. – Dr. George Tiller, one of the nation's few providers of late-term abortions despite decades of protests and attacks, was shot and killed Sunday in a church where he was serving as an usher.

The gunman fled, but a 51-year-old suspect was arrested some 170 miles away in suburban Kansas City three hours after the shooting, Wichita Deputy Police Chief Tom Stolz said.

The suspect's name was not released; police had been looking for a gunman who fled in a car registered in the Kansas City suburb of Merriam.

Stolz said all indications were that the man acted alone, although authorities were investigating whether he had any connection to anti-abortion groups.

Stolz said the man was being brought back to Wichita, where he would likely be charged Monday with one count of murder and two of aggravated assault. Stolz said the gunman threatened two people who tried to stop him.

There was no immediate word of the motive Tiller's assailant. But the doctor's violent death was the latest in a string of shootings and bombings over two decades directed against abortion clinics, doctors and staff.

Long a focus of national anti-abortion groups, including a summer-long protest in 1991, Tiller was shot in the foyer of Reformation Lutheran Church, Stolz said. Tiller's attorney, Dan Monnat, said Tiller's wife, Jeanne, was in the choir at the time.

The slaying of the 67-year-old doctor is "an unspeakable tragedy," his widow, four children and 10 grandchildren said in statement. "This is particularly heart-wrenching because George was shot down in his house of worship, a place of peace."

The family said its loss "is also a loss for the city of Wichita and women across America. George dedicated his life to providing women with high-quality health care despite frequent threats and violence."

Tiller's Women's Health Care Services clinic is one of just three in the nation where abortions are performed after the 21st week of pregnancy. The clinic was heavily fortified and Tiller often traveled with a bodyguard, but Stolz said there was no indication of security at the church Sunday.

Anti-abortion groups denounced the shooting and stressed that they support only nonviolent protest. The movement's leaders fear the killing could create a backlash just as they are scrutinizing U.S. Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor, whose views on abortion rights are not publicly known.

"We are shocked at this morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down," Troy Newman, Operation Rescue's president, said in a statement. "Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning."

President Barack Obama said he was "shocked and outraged" by the murder. "However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence," he said.

At Tiller's church, Adam Watkins, 20, said he was sitting in the middle of the congregation when he heard a small pop at the start of the service.

"We just thought a child had come in with a balloon and it had popped, had gone up and hit the ceiling and popped," Watkins said.

Another usher came in and told the congregation to remain seated, then escorted Tiller's wife out. "When she got to the back doors, we heard her scream, and so we knew something bad had happened," Watkins said.

He said the service continued even after an associate pastor announced that Tiller had been injured. "We were just really shocked," he said. "We were kind of dumbfounded. We couldn't really believe it had happened."

Tiller had in the past endured threats and violence. A protester shot Tiller in both arms in 1993, and his clinic was bombed in 1985. More recently, Monnat said Tiller had asked federal prosecutors to step up investigations of vandalism and other threats against the clinic out of fear that the incidents were increasing and that Tiller's safety was in jeopardy. Stolz, however, said police knew of no threats connected to the shooting.

In early May, Tiller had asked the FBI to investigate vandalism at his clinic, including cut wires to surveillance cameras and damage to the roof that sent rainwater pouring into the building.

In 1991, the Summer of Mercy protests organized by Operation Rescue drew thousands of anti-abortion activists to this city for demonstrations marked by civil disobedience and mass arrests.

Tiller began providing abortion services in 1973. He acknowledged abortion was as socially divisive as slavery or prohibition but said the issue was about giving women a choice when dealing with technology that can diagnose severe fetal abnormalities before a baby is born.

Nancy Keenan, president of abortion-rights group NARAL Pro-Choice America, issued a statement praising Tiller's commitment.

"Dr. Tiller's murder will send a chill down the spines of the brave and courageous providers and other professionals who are part of reproductive-health centers that serve women across this country. We want them to know that they have our support as they move forward in providing these essential services in the aftermath of the shocking news from Wichita," Keenan said.

After the 1991 protests, Tiller kept mostly to his heavily guarded clinic, although in 1997 he opened it to three tours by state lawmakers and the media. He wore a button that read "Trust Women."

The clinic is fortified with bulletproof glass, and Tiller hired a private security team to protect the facility. Once outside the clinic, Tiller was routinely accompanied by a bodyguard.

At a recent trial, he told jurors that he and his family have suffered years of harassment and threats and that he knew he was a target of anti-abortion protesters.

Federal marshals protected Tiller during the 1991 Summer of Mercy protests, and he was protected again between 1994 and 1998 after another abortion provider was assassinated and federal authorities reported finding Tiller's name on an assassination list.

Tiller remained prominent in the news, in part because of an investigation begun by former Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline, an abortion opponent.

Prosecutors had alleged that Tiller had gotten second opinions from a doctor who was essentially an employee of his, not independent as state law requires. A jury in March acquitted Tiller of all 19 misdemeanor counts.

"I am stunned by this lawless and violent act, which must be condemned and should be met with the full force of law," Kline said in a statement. "We join in lifting prayer that God's grace and presence rest with Dr. Tiller's family and friends."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_tiller_shooting

[trickblue]

Tiller was a fiend, but this is not how to deal with this kind of thing...

[jay cee]

It depends on what type of church it is. Some churches actually have gay clergy. Those are basically more of a country-club, a church in name only.

Well what about the churches with the adulterous clergy? Would they also be considered a church in name only.

[trickblue]

Well what about the churches with the adulterous clergy? Would they also be considered a church in name only.

You know... you are treading on thin ground with your implication...

Don't take obscure examples and apply them to churches as a whole...

What about ANY family with adulterous members? Is it ever OK? Does hypocritical behavior from the left bother you?

[bbgun]

This guy captures the right tone.


"Whoever murdered George Tiller has done a gravely wicked thing. The evil of this action is in no way diminished by the blood George Tiller had on his own hands. No private individual had the right to execute judgment against him. We are a nation of laws. Lawless violence breeds only more lawless violence. Rightly or wrongly, George Tilller was acquitted by a jury of his peers. 'Vengeance is mine, says the Lord.' For the sake of justice and right, the perpetrator of this evil deed must be prosecuted, convicted, and punished. By word and deed, let us teach that violence against abortionists is not the answer to the violence of abortion. Every human life is precious. George Tiller's life was precious. We do not teach the wrongness of taking human life by wrongfully taking a human life. Let our 'weapons' in the fight to defend the lives of abortion's tiny victims, be chaste weapons of the spirit."

— Robert P. George, McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence at Princeton University.

[trickblue]

This guy captures the right tone.


"Whoever murdered George Tiller has done a gravely wicked thing. The evil of this action is in no way diminished by the blood George Tiller had on his own hands. No private individual had the right to execute judgment against him. We are a nation of laws. Lawless violence breeds only more lawless violence. Rightly or wrongly, George Tilller was acquitted by a jury of his peers. 'Vengeance is mine, says the Lord.' For the sake of justice and right, the perpetrator of this evil deed must be prosecuted, convicted, and punished. By word and deed, let us teach that violence against abortionists is not the answer to the violence of abortion. Every human life is precious. George Tiller's life was precious. We do not teach the wrongness of taking human life by wrongfully taking a human life. Let our 'weapons' in the fight to defend the lives of abortion's tiny victims, be chaste weapons of the spirit."

— Robert P. George, McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence at Princeton University.

^^This^^

[jay cee]

You know... you are treading on thin ground with your implication...

Don't take obscure examples and apply them to churches as a whole...

What about ANY family with adulterous members? Is it ever OK? Does hypocritical behavior from the left bother you?

I have no idea what you are talking about in this post Trickblue. What Obscure example? And How am I applying it to churches as a whole?

The guy said churches with gay clergy are not real churches, and I asked about Adulterous clergy, would that make their church false also?

You could use Liars, fornicators, or anything else. I don't see how people can pick one sin to be against, and the others are ok when God does not seem to do so.

And yes hypocrisy from the left bothers me just as much as hypocrisy from the right. Because IMO anyone that follows either party is an idiot.

[zrinkill]

This guy captures the right tone.


"Whoever murdered George Tiller has done a gravely wicked thing. The evil of this action is in no way diminished by the blood George Tiller had on his own hands. No private individual had the right to execute judgment against him. We are a nation of laws. Lawless violence breeds only more lawless violence. Rightly or wrongly, George Tilller was acquitted by a jury of his peers. 'Vengeance is mine, says the Lord.' For the sake of justice and right, the perpetrator of this evil deed must be prosecuted, convicted, and punished. By word and deed, let us teach that violence against abortionists is not the answer to the violence of abortion. Every human life is precious. George Tiller's life was precious. We do not teach the wrongness of taking human life by wrongfully taking a human life. Let our 'weapons' in the fight to defend the lives of abortion's tiny victims, be chaste weapons of the spirit."

— Robert P. George, McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence at Princeton University.

I agree ......

Although personally I think the guy was a sick minded baby murderer

[ScipioCowboy]

Well what about the churches with the adulterous clergy? Would they also be considered a church in name only.

It depends. Does the church in question condone adultery and teach that it's entirely consistent with the Bible's moral teachings?

If so, the answer is yes.

[Hostile]

This guy captures the right tone.


"Whoever murdered George Tiller has done a gravely wicked thing. The evil of this action is in no way diminished by the blood George Tiller had on his own hands. No private individual had the right to execute judgment against him. We are a nation of laws. Lawless violence breeds only more lawless violence. Rightly or wrongly, George Tilller was acquitted by a jury of his peers. 'Vengeance is mine, says the Lord.' For the sake of justice and right, the perpetrator of this evil deed must be prosecuted, convicted, and punished. By word and deed, let us teach that violence against abortionists is not the answer to the violence of abortion. Every human life is precious. George Tiller's life was precious. We do not teach the wrongness of taking human life by wrongfully taking a human life. Let our 'weapons' in the fight to defend the lives of abortion's tiny victims, be chaste weapons of the spirit."

— Robert P. George, McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence at Princeton University.I never thought I'd say this about a post in the PZ.

Post of the day.

[irvin88]

One less Obama voter !

[JBond]

Official: Suspect in custody in Kan. abortion doc's slaying (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6450851.html)

By ROXANA HEGEMAN
Associated Press
May 31, 2009, 2:56PM

WICHITA, Kan. — Late-term abortion doctor George Tiller, a prominent advocate for abortion rights wounded by a protester more than a decade ago, was shot and killed Sunday at his church in Wichita, his attorney said.

A Wichita city official, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk publicly about the case, said a suspect was taken into custody later Sunday. The official would not provide additional details. Earlier, police had said they were looking for a gunman who fled in a 1993 light blue Ford Taurus registered in the Kansas City suburb of Merriam, Kan.

<snip>

I live in Shawnee, Kansas which borders Merriam. It's a very small community. I wonder if the car was stolen or if the gunman used his or her own vehicle. There are not a ton of vehicles of that vintage in this area. Most folks are driving something much newer.

Tyler was a bad man in my opinion but he did not deserve to be gunned down at worship services. The only thing he seemed to worship was money based on his career choice. It would have been more interesting if Fred Phelps had run him down in a van. Then we could have been rid of two crazies.

[jay cee]

It depends. Does the church in question condone adultery and teach that it's entirely consistent with the Bible's moral teachings?

If so, the answer is yes.
Great point Scipio, and I totally agree. I guess my bigger issue is with the people who only want to look at one issue and totally overlook others. I think that is hypocritical.

[adamc91115]

I just have a hard time feeling bad about this... If he has any kids I feel sorry for them, thats about it.

I don't support him being killed, but I can't bring myself to feel bad.

[Bizwah]

This guy captures the right tone.


"Whoever murdered George Tiller has done a gravely wicked thing. The evil of this action is in no way diminished by the blood George Tiller had on his own hands. No private individual had the right to execute judgment against him. We are a nation of laws. Lawless violence breeds only more lawless violence. Rightly or wrongly, George Tilller was acquitted by a jury of his peers. 'Vengeance is mine, says the Lord.' For the sake of justice and right, the perpetrator of this evil deed must be prosecuted, convicted, and punished. By word and deed, let us teach that violence against abortionists is not the answer to the violence of abortion. Every human life is precious. George Tiller's life was precious. We do not teach the wrongness of taking human life by wrongfully taking a human life. Let our 'weapons' in the fight to defend the lives of abortion's tiny victims, be chaste weapons of the spirit."

— Robert P. George, McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence at Princeton University.

Awesome.....

There are so many that take the John Brown approach. They think the only way to fight evil is with violence. Not so.

There are ways to protest abortion peacefully. Using murder to protest murder is just plain stupid.

[MetalHead]

I have to say it again...he is dead now.
At least he had a chance,unlike those babies he killed.
I wonder how many doctors and engineers he killed...

[big dog cowboy]

This shooting took place 5 miles from my house. Tiller's office is only 4 miles from my house. Needless to say the local news has been all over this. Anything to do with Tiller makes the news around here. Today everyone is just going nuts.

No matter what your opinion of late term abortions is, what happened today is first degree murder. While Kansas is a Republican state and generally leans toward the conservative side, the guy who shot Tiller might as well plead guilty because there is no way he is walking out of that courthouse a free man.

Just as a FYI, we do have a "Hard 40" law in Kansas which means someone convicted of a crime like this will have to serve 40 years before any chance of parole.

[Hostile]

This shooting took place 5 miles from my house. Tiller's office is only 4 miles from my house. Needless to say the local news has been all over this. Anything to do with Tiller makes the news around here. Today everyone is just going nuts.

No matter what your opinion of late term abortions is, what happened today is first degree murder. While Kansas is a Republican state and generally leans toward the conservative side, the guy who shot Tiller might as well plead guilty because there is no way he is walking out of that courthouse a free man.

Just as a FYI, we do have a "Hard 40" law in Kansas which means someone convicted of a crime like this will have to serve 40 years before any chance of parole.I said that about OJ too.

[lewpac]

One less Obama voter !

Ya' know what I heard from this one guy on the very day that over 3,000 people died on 9/11 in the World Trade Center tragedy?

He said: "That's just 3,000 less liberal Democrat votes. They all live and work in Manhattan, and everyone there is a liberal nut job anyway".

And I thought, ya' know, that's what THEY do and say. "They" being the extreme uber-left in this country, and America-haters across the world. They rejoiced when Tony Snow got and died of cancer. They got a big kick out of Dick Cheney accidentally shooting his buddy. They dance in the streets when something terrible happens to any "enemy" of theirs. They wished death upon the very President of the U.S. for eight long years.

It took that guy for me to admit that there's nut jobs on "our side" as well. I always like to think that WE were above that fray, and we don't sink into that gutter and crapper of utter disdain and vile emotion. Certainly nothing close in numbers to the other side, but enough to not allow us to say "we don't play that ****".

This post does little to stop allowing the bottom-feeding left in this country from hurling the obligatory "hate" stuff at the right. It's right up their alley. Tomorrow, we're gonna' hear EVERY "right wing hate group", "right wing extremism" talking point to further scare the electorate into continue voting Democrat.

And YOU just fell for their schtick. Hook, line and sinker.

[bbgun]

Ya' know what I heard from this one guy on the very day that over 3,000 people died on 9/11 in the World Trade Center tragedy?

He said: "That's just 3,000 less liberal Democrat votes. They all live and work in Manhattan, and everyone there is a liberal nut job anyway".

On September 11, Michael Moore said something very similar, and just as vile:

"Many families have been devastated tonight. This is just not right. They did not deserve to die. ... If someone did this to get back at Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT VOTE for him. Boston, New York, D.C., and the planes' destination of California — these were the places that voted AGAINST Bush."

Who did deserve to die, Michael?

[SuspectCorner]

Internet posts draw police interest after doctor's murder (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/69134.html)

By Stan Finger and Joe Rodriguez | Wichita Eagle

WICHITA — The angry reaction from both sides of the abortion debate that exploded onto the Internet in the aftermath of the murder Sunday of one of the few doctors in the United States willing to perform late-term abortions has drawn the attention of police who are trying to understand if George Tiller's killer acted alone.

Tom Stolz, the deputy chief of the Wichita police department, said investigators will look into the Internet comments because the discussion could bear on public safety. He didn't elaborate further.

Statements from both supporters and opponents to abortion were highly charged.

"George Tiller was a mass-murderer," Randall Terry, the founder of the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue, said in a statement. "We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God."

National Organization for Women president Kim Gandy said: "The cold-blooded murder of Dr. George Tiller this morning in church is a stark reminder that women's bodies are still a battleground, and health care professionals are on the frontlines."

President Obama expressed anger at the shooting. "I am shocked and outraged by the murder of Dr. George Tiller as he attended church services this morning. However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence."

Police identified the 51-year-old man arrested in the shooting as Scott P. Roeder of suburban Kansas City. Stolz said police will "investigate this suspect to the Nth degree, his history, his family, his associates, and we're just in the beginning stages of that."

Tiller had long been a focal point of protests by abortion opponents because his clinic, Women's Health Care Services, 5107 E. Kellogg, is one of three in the country where late-term abortions are performed.

He was shot and wounded in both arms at his clinic in 1993.

Tiller, 67, was shot once just after 10 a.m. as he stood in the lobby of Reformation Lutheran Church, 7601 E. 13th, where he was a member of the congregation.

Wichita police said that the suspect was arrested without incident on I-35 in Johnson County in suburban Kansas City about three hours after the shooting following a statewide broadcast description of the suspect and the car he was driving.

Wichita police said it appeared the suspect acted alone and that they are investigating whether he had any connection to anti-abortion groups.

Police said they expect the man to face a charge of murder and two counts of aggravated battery. Charges may be filed as eearly as Monday.

In a news conference at Wichita City Hall, Deputy Chief Tom Stolz said police will "investigate this suspect to the Nth degree, his history, his family, his associates, and we're just in the beginning stages of that."

Tiller had long been a focal point of protests by abortion opponents because his clinic, Women's Health Care Services, 5107 E. Kellogg, is one of three in the country where late-term abortions are performed.

He was shot and wounded in both arms at his clinic in 1993.

According to police and other sources, here is what happened:

For the 10 a.m. service, Tiller was serving as an usher at the church, one of six ushers listed in the church bulletin. He was handing out bulletins to people going into the sanctuary minutes before being shot.

At 10:03, Tiller was one of about six to 12 people in the foyer, outside the sanctuary. His wife was at the church.

A man armed with a handgun shot Tiller once, according to the preliminary investigation.

Three to four people saw the shooting.

Two men confronted the suspect and exchanged words with him, but police would not say what.

"They were both threatened, and the gun was pointed at them," Stolz said.

That is why the suspect could face the aggravated assault charges, Stolz said.

Within minutes, paramedics arrived and pronounced Tiller dead at the scene.

Officers arrived and immediately started interviewing witnesses.

Police obtained the suspect's description, the vehicle license tag, and vehicle description -- a powder blue 1993 Ford Taurus -- and broadcast it and the tag number to law enforcement agencies throughout the state. The car was registered to Scott Roeder of Merriam in Johnson County.

Police also obtained a photo of the suspect, who has a criminal record. Officers began checking motels and other places for the suspect.

Before the shooting, the church was "packed," said Shirley King, one of the congregants. New members were joining. A baptism was on the agenda.

When King heard a "pop" sound, she thought it was special effects from the percussionist. Some people glanced toward the rear of the church, curious.

Tiller's wife, Jeanne, was sitting with the choir downstairs, King said. An usher came, and motioned for Jeanne Tiller to come with him.

"The rest of us were listening to the prelude, but then came the piercing screams of a woman who obviously had witnessed a horrible sight," King wrote in an e-mail.

"A few people immediately jumped up, but quickly one of our church leaders said, 'Everyone please be seated. Please remain calm. We have had an incident and we are taking care of it. Remain in your seat.' "

Adam Watkins, a 20-year-old who said he has attended the church his entire life, said he was sitting in the middle of the congregation when he heard the "pop."

"We just thought a child had come in with a balloon and it had popped, had gone up and hit the ceiling and popped," Watkins said.

Once they learned of the shooting, Watkins said:

"We were just really shocked. We were kind of dumbfounded. We couldn't really believe it had happened."

The suspect's car was spotted shortly before 2 p.m. just south of Gardner by two Johnson County Sheriff's deputies -- Andy Lento and Tyson Kilbey. The sheriff's office had suspected that the man would be coming back to his home on I-35 and Kilbey and Lento waited for him.

As the car went north, Lento and Kilbey followed and were quickly joined by three other sheriff's patrol cars.

Lt. Mike Pfannenstiel of the sheriff's office said officers pulled the car over just south of the main Gardner exit and got out with guns drawn. The man then got out of his car with his hands up.

"We took him down without incident," Pfannenstiel said, adding that the man appeared to be driving the speed limit and made no attempt to elude the deputies.

At the 4 p.m. news conference, Stolz said authorities were bringing the suspect to Wichita.

He said that police expect to present the case to the Sedgwick County District Attorney's Office on Monday.

At 7 p.m., a vigil service was held at Reformation.

Tiller's family issued a statement through Wichita lawyers Dan Monnat and Lee Thompson:

"Today we mourn the loss of our husband, father and grandfather. Today's event is an unspeakable tragedy for all of us and for George's friends and patients.

"This is particularly heart wrenching because George was shot down in his house of worship, a place of peace."

Mickey Cohlmia, a member of the neighboring St. George Orthodox Christian Cathedral, said: "It is absolutely disheartening....I think it shows where our world is today.... There is no safe place."

The anti-abortion group Operation Rescue, in a statement on its Web site, said:

"We are shocked at (Sunday) morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down. Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning. We pray for Mr. Tiller's family that they will find comfort and healing that can only be found in ."

Former Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline, who conducted an investigation into Tiller, said in a statement he was "stunned by this lawless and violent act which must be condemned and should be met with the full force of law. We join in lifting prayer that God's grace and presence rest with Dr. Tiller's family and friends."

Tiller and his clinic have faced continuous threats and lawsuits.

A Wichita jury ruled in March that he was not guilty of illegal abortion on 19 criminal charges he faced for allegedly violating a state law requiring an "independent" second physician's concurring opinion before performing later term abortions. Immediately following the ruling in this criminal case, the Kansas State Board of Healing Arts made public a similar complaint against Tiller that was originally filed in December 2008.

Protesters blockaded Tiller's clinic during Operation Rescue's "Summer of Mercy" protests during the summer of 1991, and Tiller was shot by Rachelle Shannon at his clinic in 1993. Tiller was wounded in both arms, and Shannon remains in prison for the shooting.

The clinic was bombed in June 1986, and was severely vandalized in May. His lawyer said wires to security cameras and outdoor lights were cut and that the vandals also cut through the roof and plugged the buildings' downspouts. Rain poured through the roof and caused thousands of dollars of damage in the clinic. Tiller reportedly asked the FBI to investigate the incident.

[DIAF]

How did I know Artie would be the one zoner to come out and cheerlead this? Amazing.

[SuspectCorner]

Roe v. Wade is settled US law. Proponents and endorsers of the murder of this abortion doctor are proponents and endorsers of lawlessness. No more - no less.

Our obligation, as citizens of this country, is to observe and obey ALL the laws of the land - NOT just the ones we agree with.

[trickblue]

Our obligation, as citizens of this country, is to observe and obey ALL the laws of the land - NOT just the ones we agree with.

I see... and does that apply to elected officials?

[Hostile]

Roe v. Wade is settled US law.

Our obligation, as citizens of this country, is to obey ALL the laws of the land - NOT just the ones we agree with.No offense, but nonsense.

The right to bear arms is a law too. It is attacked all the time because some disagree with it.

No political party endorses every controversial topic that is law and no citizen is obligated to agree with every law and never seek to have them changed.

I am always amazed at how one side or the other can conveniently forget other laws but bang the drum about the ones their side supports. It is why I laugh at politics.

Sheep.

[SuspectCorner]

No offense, but nonsense.

The right to bear arms is a law too. It is attacked all the time because some disagree with it.

No political party endorses every controversial topic that is law and no citizen is obligated to agree with every law and never seek to have them changed.

I am always amazed at how one side or the other can conveniently forget other laws but bang the drum about the ones their side supports. It is why I laugh at politics.

Sheep.

Excuse me if I counter that YOUR post is nonsense. Has anybody come to collect your guns?

Right now the law supports your right to have them. And until such time as that law changes - I will wholly support your right to have them, resisting and disparaging any illegal efforts to deprive you of them.

In this thread I refer to the act of murder - I don't think that crime is likely to legalized any time in the forseeable future. Do you?

Sheep dip.

[trickblue]

Excuse me if I counter that YOUR post is nonsense. Has anybody come to collect your guns?

Right now the law supports your right to have them. And until such time as that law changes - I will wholly support your right to have them, resisting and disparaging any illegal efforts to deprive you of them.

You don't have the same ownership rights in every state, not even close. In many states you would violate their laws and risk confiscation of your firearm if you crossed state lines with it... that is collecting guns...

I also want to know your feelings of our lawmakers and citizens thumbing their nose at our immigration laws...

[Hostile]

Excuse me if I counter that YOUR post is nonsense. Has anybody come to collect your guns?

Right now the law supports your right to have them. And until such time as that law changes - I will wholly support your right to have them, resisting and disparaging any illegal efforts to deprive you of them.

In this thread I refer to the act of murder - I don't think that crime is likely to legalized any time in the forseeable future. Do you?

Sheep dip.No, your post was an attempt to paint anyone who disagrees with abortion as lawless.

It was disguised as a jab at those who support the killing of this Doctor, but the intent was obvious.

If some anti-gun backers had their way, yes someone would come to get my guns. No different than some Pro Life people want Roe vs. Wade overturned.

The difference is I chose a law on the other side to show that neither side are 100% backers of the law. They back the laws they believe in.

Good or bad, our country allows that.

[ShiningStar]

Excuse me if I counter that YOUR post is nonsense. Has anybody come to collect your guns?

Right now the law supports your right to have them. And until such time as that law changes - I will wholly support your right to have them, resisting and disparaging any illegal efforts to deprive you of them.

In this thread I refer to the act of murder - I don't think that crime is likely to legalized any time in the forseeable future. Do you?

Sheep dip.


Yup, not my guns personally, but living here in Jersey, I have seen guns taken away, SOLD and nothing you nor the lawyer could do about it. I watched it happen personally.

Also, please inform me about freedom of speech sometime. Its in the law of all law in the country, yet we dont have it anymore today. MMMMMM

But i do disagree with Hostile calling you sheep, thats an insult to the sheep.

[SuspectCorner]

You don't have the same ownership rights in every state, not even close. In many states you would violate their laws and risk confiscation of your firearm if you crossed state lines with it... that is collecting guns...

I also want to know your feelings of our lawmakers and citizens thumbing their nose at our immigration laws...

I believe it's the obligation of every citizen, US or state or otherwise, to observe the laws that pertain to them - this includes politicians. I may not agree with every law - but there is a political process that allows us to see laws overturned. If we allow citizens to pick and choose which laws they will observe and obey - then there is little point to even having established them.

I certainly don't condone the shooting of a fellow citizen for a practice that is legal according to the laws of our land. I guess that's where we part company.

[Hostile]

Yup, not my guns personally, but living here in Jersey, I have seen guns taken away, SOLD and nothing you nor the lawyer could do about it. I watched it happen personally.

Also, please inform me about freedom of speech sometime. Its in the law of all law in the country, yet we dont have it anymore today. MMMMMM

But i do disagree with Hostile calling you sheep, thats an insult to the sheep.I want to clarify. I am not calling HIM a sheep. I am saying blind loyalty to party is sheep. IMO 90% of the populace addicted to politics on both sides fit that. When you have to hear what those in your party think before you can make up your own mind about a policy what else is it?

[ShiningStar]

I believe it's the obligation of every citizen, US or state or otherwise, to observe the laws that pertain to them - this includes politicians. I may not agree with every law - but there is a political process that allows us to see laws overturned. If we allow citizens to pick and choose which laws they will observe and obey - then there is little point to even having established them.

I certainly don't condone the shooting of a fellow citizen for a practice that is legal according to the laws of our land. I guess that's where we part company.


But you are okay if an elected official lies, gets caught lying, continues to lie, and than everyone else shield them from the people that want to persecute them for lying to begin with?

[ShiningStar]

I want to clarify. I am not calling HIM a sheep. I am saying blind loyalty to party is sheep. IMO 90% of the populace addicted to politics on both sides fit that. When you have to hear what those in your party think before you can make up your own mind about a policy what else is it?


most of the words would get me banned. the statement was made in jest because so many people are being called sheep, and the sheep are smarter than them. Trust me on that. The average person doesnt understand the politics because i really believe the politicans can no longer understand them and what we have is a controlled anarchy followed by people who just want to continue to separate ourselves from our fellow man. Everyday i continually watch people label themselves so much to be separate from other people.

The average child today is not being taught proper politics. The average person today doesnt understand the politics. Posters all over all have different views.

Welcome to the internet, the etheral junkyard.

[Hostile]

most of the words would get me banned. the statement was made in jest because so many people are being called sheep, and the sheep are smarter than them. Trust me on that. The average person doesnt understand the politics because i really believe the politicans can no longer understand them and what we have is a controlled anarchy followed by people who just want to continue to separate ourselves from our fellow man. Everyday i continually watch people label themselves so much to be separate from other people.

The average child today is not being taught proper politics. The average person today doesnt understand the politics. Posters all over all have different views.

Welcome to the internet, the etheral junkyard.Bravo.

[lewpac]

Excuse me if I counter that YOUR post is nonsense. Has anybody come to collect your guns?

Right now the law supports your right to have them. And until such time as that law changes - I will wholly support your right to have them, resisting and disparaging any illegal efforts to deprive you of them.

In this thread I refer to the act of murder - I don't think that crime is likely to legalized any time in the forseeable future. Do you?

Sheep dip.

Here in Hawaii, there is only ONE (as in UNO, Single, Alone) person who's not military or law enforcement with a permit to carry a fire arm. And he's highly politically connected in the State.

I own four weapons. An AR15 Rifle, a .357 pistol, my shotgun, and a .25 handgun. I could not retain or possess these arms without first going through umpteen classes, vigorous testing, cumbersome waiting periods, and strict regulation. How, where, why, and when I can use them is strictly monitored. And, if I use them in defense of my family or personal well-being, I'M THE ONE whose gonna' hafta' answer to the law for discharging them.

Never the less.....................I choose to live in Hawaii, and THAT'S THE LAW. I understood that going in.

I'm not advocating for abortion. However, I'm not in a position to judge it's every application either. Anyone who knows me around here knows that I'm extremely opinionated, tend to ramble and repeat myself, and stand true to my conservative convictions.

However, with regard to this issue, I've always took the "judge not" position, because I DON'T KNOW the particulars of EVERY CASE!! The "judge not" thing is also a big part of the loudest bunch opposing this issue. They somehow forget THAT part of the religion they preach to stop abortions. I'm all for the old "mind your own business, everyone will answer for his/her own deeds". If some lady in Scranton or Miami gets an abortion, it's none of my bee's wax!

Gunning down a complete stranger, on a Sunday morning in a religious setting, in broad daylight over this issue...............? Sorry, even I can't wrap my brain justifying such a thing. I believe a lot of things and will defend my beliefs to the "enth" degree. But killing another person over my beliefs????? I'm pleased to say that I haven't arrived at that psychosis yet, and I'm sure I never will..................

[SuspectCorner]

No, your post was an attempt to paint anyone who disagrees with abortion as lawless.

It was disguised as a jab at those who support the killing of this Doctor, but the intent was obvious.

If some anti-gun backers had their way, yes someone would come to get my guns. No different than some Pro Life people want Roe vs. Wade overturned.

The difference is I chose a law on the other side to show that neither side are 100% backers of the law. They back the laws they believe in.

Good or bad, our country allows that.

Well, that's where you went off track. My post was NOT about "anybody who disagrees with abortion as lawless." Because, you see, to disagree with abortion is not a crime. Shooting and killing an abortion doctor IS.

And I didn't disguise my jab at those who supported his killing. I was pretty blatant about it. Yes, my intent in THAT regard was obvious - and MEANT to be. Again, supporting the murder of this doctor is extremely irresponsible - to say the least.

[Kangaroo]

Sorry the guy who gunned down the doctor did more harm than good for his cause.

Sorry it was just plain crazy but this battle has always had the extremes on each side.

[Hostile]

Well, that's where you went off track. My post was NOT about "anybody who disagrees with abortion as lawless." Because, you see, to disagree with abortion is not a crime. Shooting and killing an abortion doctor IS.

And I didn't disguise my jab at those who supported his killing. I was pretty blatant about it. Yes, my intent in THAT regard was obvious - and MEANT to be. Again, supporting the murder of this doctor is extremely irresponsible - to say the least.Reprehensible is more like it.

There was no need to bring up Roe vs. Wade though and describe it as law. That is where you open yourself up to scrutiny.

[bbgun]

I believe it's the obligation of every citizen, US or state or otherwise, to observe the laws that pertain to them

Rosa Parks had different ideas. Ditto those who got their heads kicked in for daring to eat at an all-white lunch counter. I guess they just should have "observed the laws that pertained to them."

[ScipioCowboy]

No offense, but nonsense.

The right to bear arms is a law too. It is attacked all the time because some disagree with it.

No political party endorses every controversial topic that is law and no citizen is obligated to agree with every law and never seek to have them changed.

I am always amazed at how one side or the other can conveniently forget other laws but bang the drum about the ones their side supports. It is why I laugh at politics.

Sheep.

:hammer:

You don't have the same ownership rights in every state, not even close. In many states you would violate their laws and risk confiscation of your firearm if you crossed state lines with it... that is collecting guns...

I also want to know your feelings of our lawmakers and citizens thumbing their nose at our immigration laws...

:hammer:

[sbark]

Will take the focus off of Sotomayer appoinment........this is tragic mostly because it will be used by the Left as an all-purpose moral-equivalence sledge hammer every time someone raises their voice against any Liberal left wing policy.........1 vrs. 1.5 million/yr : but they will twist this into some kind of moral high ground........like they did with waterboarding.......

Sarah Palin......get ready for another wave of attacks......... Sounds like Poltico already threw a veiled question at her.....

..........did they ever catch up to Liberal terrorist Bill Ayers......?.......oh ya, he is a college professor, neighbor to Obama for last 10 years.......:rolleyes:

[Hostile]

Sorry the guy who gunned down the doctor did more harm than good for his cause.

Sorry it was just plain crazy but this battle has always had the extremes on each side.Agree 100%.

[Hostile]

Rosa Parks had different ideas. Ditto those who got their heads kicked in for daring to eat at an all-white lunch counter. I guess they just should have "observed the laws that pertained to them."Ouch.

[lewpac]

Rosa Parks had different ideas. Ditto those who got their heads kicked in for daring to eat at an all-white lunch counter. I guess they just should have "observed the laws that pertained to them."

Bad analogy.................

Righteousness has a way of filtering it's way through a democratic republic.

You're equating Jim Crow laws with Roe vs. Wade precedent law. What Rosa Parks and MLK et.al. "disobeyed" was constitutionally correct by any standard. You know, silly stuff about "all men created equal" and all...........

Abortion or No-Abortion is completely uncharted territory that, some decade's after it's mandate, is STILL being debated. Is there a "right to life" for the unborn? Personally, I don't know, because when our Country's Constitution was written, it wasn't an issue and, in fact, wasn't on the radar screen of EVER BEING an issue.

Treating a whole race or class of ALIVE people WAS!!!! So, from the beginning, Rosa Parks was correct. So was MLK and others in "the movement". A "movement" that should've never been needed in the first place, IF our constitution were adhered to from the onset. "All Men" means ALL MEN!! As in that pesky little "created equal" gig.

The unborn? Again, if you want the TRUE and LITERALL Biblical explaination, then PM me. We can go back and forth all day and continue this hissy-fit for forever. Bottom line about this issue: Mind your own business. It'll save you a lot of un-necessary and useless time and stress. Because no matter what you think or believe or want to happen, abortions aren't going to end anytime soon. Especially with the Dali-Obama in the White House.............

[Viper]

What if this has nothing to do with the abortion debate. What if this is a guy out for revenge. The facts haven't come forth as of yet. This guy could have done this because Tiller took the life of his son, his grandson. Until the facts present themselves we just haven't got a clue.

[vta]

Mind your own business. It'll save you a lot of un-necessary and useless time and stress.............

I like this, it has a resonance that transcends this issue.
Too much insecurity and the need for others to share your beliefs creates institutions, which in turn always become corrupt and safe houses for the nuts to find a place where they can belong.

[bbgun]

Bad analogy.................

Righteousness has a way of filtering it's way through a democratic republic.

You're equating Jim Crow laws with Roe vs. Wade precedent law. What Rosa Parks and MLK et.al. "disobeyed" was constitutionally correct by any standard. You know, silly stuff about "all men created equal" and all...........

I made no analogies. I simply called him out for making sweeping generalizations about "respect for the law," using civil disobedience as an example. Constitutional issues notwithstanding, Jim Crow was established law in the Deep South, but the activists courageously paid it no deference. The crucial difference is that, unlike today's tragedy, they did so non-violently.

[vta]

What if this has nothing to do with the abortion debate. What if this is a guy out for revenge. The facts haven't come forth as of yet. This guy could have done this because Tiller took the life of his son, his grandson. Until the facts present themselves we just haven't got a clue.

Most likely, he's one of the nuts looking for a place to belong and going to extreme lengths to show his conviction.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

I can't believe the church allowed him to serve as an usher. Most churches wouldn't have anything to do with him.

only evangelical ones, not all churches are anti-choice

[CanadianCowboysFan]

I have to say it again...he is dead now.
At least he had a chance,unlike those babies he killed.
I wonder how many doctors and engineers he killed...

or how many drug dealers, drunk drivers, criminals, future abortion providers etc

[lewpac]

I made no analogies. I simply called him out for making sweeping generalizations about "respect for the law," using civil disobedience as an example. Constitutional issues notwithstanding, Jim Crow was established law in the Deep South, but the activists courageously paid it no deference. The crucial difference is that, unlike today's tragedy, they did so non-violently.


Another "crucial difference" is that Jim Crow laws were openly, clearly, and "in your face" completely contrary to the very Constitution that this country was founded upon.

Abortion, like other issues in an evolving society, was not on the radar screen in 1776 or when the Amendments to the Constitution were issued. An example is all this "gay rights" stuff going on in 2009. Nary a word about anything gay or not-gay is mentioned in the document, as it was not an issue 250 years ago.

These things, like abortion, in this day and time, MUST be considered in light of a 200+ yr. old foundation of laws and norms. Like I stated, I'm fiercely "traditional" and, if you must, "conservative". But, that said, part of that tradition is largely MIND YOU OWN BUSINESS, "Judge Not", and "he/she will answer to their maker" tradition. I'm simply too old and to tired to concern myself with other peoples decisions............unless it steps foot on my property or intrudes into MY LIFE! Until then, if a man want's to go to hell, let him go.....................

[lewpac]

Speaking of "pro life" or "pro choice", let me ackss you this.............

Are you an organ donor? If so, why?

How do you know that YOUR vital organ may or may not keep the next Hitler alive? You wanna' take that chance? What if your liver, kidney or lung provides a Jeffrey Dahmer or a Charles Manson a "second chance" at life? How will you ever know?

If you sign your donor card/license deal, you have no say, because you'll clearly be dead when they harvest your organs to "provide life" to some stranger.............a stranger who very well may prove to be the biggest crack dealer in your area!

See what I mean? Are you really "pro life", or does it depend upon the "life" that you approve of and condone? Like the Dali-Bama said, all this stuff is "not in my pay grade". Personally, I find the easiest way out is to just mind my own business, take care of my own, and deal with stuff when it arrives at my door-step. I've been voting for 30 years, and nothing changes anyway. At 49 yrs. old, I've come full circle to the reality that no matter what I think, the world doesn't revolve around me. I've come to exert my energy toward THAT in which I can control. Everyone else? Play your cards and get what you get........................

[Hoofbite]

most of the words would get me banned. the statement was made in jest because so many people are being called sheep, and the sheep are smarter than them. Trust me on that. The average person doesnt understand the politics because i really believe the politicans can no longer understand them and what we have is a controlled anarchy followed by people who just want to continue to separate ourselves from our fellow man. Everyday i continually watch people label themselves so much to be separate from other people.

The average child today is not being taught proper politics. The average person today doesnt understand the politics. Posters all over all have different views.

Welcome to the internet, the etheral junkyard.

Pretty good plan, huh?

Keep the masses fighting so they don't realize how badly they are getting bent over. As long as its Right vs. Left there will be no improvement in the state of things. Just shifts in focus the brewing of new complaints.

[SuspectCorner]

Reprehensible is more like it.

There was no need to bring up Roe vs. Wade though and describe it as law. That is where you open yourself up to scrutiny.

I cited Roe v. Wade as a reminder to the blood-thirsty nutjobs who, right here on this board, are condoning and even relishing this act - that abortion is LEGAL, while the murder of this doctor is NOT.

If it invites "scrutiny" - who cares? Anybody who wants contend THAT reality is operating from a place beyond reason anyway.

[JBond]

Roe v. Wade is settled US law.

According to you. Many felt there was a overreaching by the courts. Why are so many scared of states rights? If Roe vs Wade was overturned abortion would become an issue for the states. It would not outlaw abortion. Those that choose to destroy their babies with acid or vacuums with blades can continue to do so with the full faith and support of their friends.

[SuspectCorner]

According to you.

Uh... no.

That would be according to the Supreme Court. Take it up with them. :D

[sacase]

I am not a abortion advocate but I find many of the comments about people being happy that the Dr. is dead crazy. They really make you no better than those you hate for being pro choice.

[sbark]

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2009/05/31/how-long-will-it... (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2009/05/31/how-long-will-it-take-media-tag-tiller-murderer-not-part-prolife-movemen)

As has been the case with most previous incidents of abortion-related violence, Roeder appears to have an affiliation with extremist political groups but not with the mainstream pro-life movement.

.........Maybe the media will have 1 story that links professor/terrorist Bill Ayers with the entire left wing & Obama at the same time they link Roeder with the entire right wing........:rolleyes:

[SuspectCorner]

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2009/05/31/how-long-will-it... (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2009/05/31/how-long-will-it-take-media-tag-tiller-murderer-not-part-prolife-movemen)

As has been the case with most previous incidents of abortion-related violence, Roeder appears to have an affiliation with extremist political groups but not with the mainstream pro-life movement.

.........Maybe the media will have 1 story that links professor/terrorist Bill Ayers with the entire left wing & Obama at the same time they link Roeder with the entire right wing........:rolleyes:

Roeder has confirmed links to the extremist end of the "pro-life" movement. If you want to vaguely refer to them as "political groups" - fine. But let's be clear about the nature of, and central issue for, those political groups, too. I doubt he was acting on his Second Amendment concerns here.

[big dog cowboy]

Scott Roeder officially rolled back into town very last last night so he is in our county jail now. According to the local media camped out on the courthouse lawn he will face the judge sometime today likely this morning.

On the local news last night the ABC station had a interview with his ex-wife. She tried as hard as she could to distance herself from the entire episode which is understandable. She really made it sound like Roeder was an extremeist.

The media coverage of this is going to get real old real fast. Last night there was a one hour special on about this. I caught the first 10 minutes then shut it off.

[Yeagermeister]

He wasn't murdered. It was a late late late late term abortion. :D

Get it? Get it?

Wow tough crowd


For the record this post is pure tongue in cheek. I don't agree with this Dr being killed even if what he did for a living is wrong.

[sbark]

Roeder has confirmed links to the extremist end of the "pro-life" movement. If you want to vaguely refer to them as "political groups" - fine. But let's be clear about the nature of, and central issue for, those political groups, too. I doubt he was acting on his Second Amendment concerns here.

Documented Links please............

.....so then we could logically say Obama has confirmed links to the Weather Underground via Billy Ayers, and the New Black Panthers via his links to Acorn via his Community Organizer days..........

[sbark]

He wasn't murdered. It was a late late late late term abortion. :D

Get it? Get it?

Wow tough crowd


For the record this post is pure tongue in cheek. I don't agree with this Dr being killed even if what he did for a living is wrong.

........it was just terrorist vrs. terrorist........Much as if Bill Ayers took out the Unibomber, or Hammas up against hezbolloa, Taliban vrs. Al Queda.......

[JBond]

He wasn't murdered. It was a late late late late term abortion. :D

Get it? Get it?

Wow tough crowd


For the record this post is pure tongue in cheek. I don't agree with this Dr being killed even if what he did for a living is wrong.

Well played....

[DFWJC]

"Late term" is the key here.

I think regardless of where people stand on the general issue of abortion, almost everyone agrees that once the term is late enough to where the child could be viable on it's own outside the womb...you cannot kill it. For sure if a late term child was born viable and could live on its own like other kids, but then someone throws it in the river, that person would be convicted of murder.

[JBond]

"Late term" is the key here.

I think regardless of where people stand on the general issue of abortion, almost everyone agrees that once the term is late enough to where the child could be viable on it's own outside the womb...you cannot kill it. For sure if a late term child was born viable and could live on its own like other kids, but then someone throws it in the river, that person would be convicted of murder.

He was a real POS. He protected child molesters and rapists. Our new Health and Human Services leader Kathleen Sebelius was a big fan of his and took a lot of money from him.

[SuspectCorner]

Documented Links please............

.....so then we could logically say Obama has confirmed links to the Weather Underground via Billy Ayers, and the New Black Panthers via his links to Acorn via his Community Organizer days..........

"I know that he believed in justifiable homicide (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/69151.html)," said Regina Dinwiddie, a Kansas City anti-abortion activist who made headlines in 1995 when she was ordered by a federal judge to stop using a bullhorn within 500 feet of any abortion clinic. "I know he very strongly believed that abortion was murder and that you ought to defend the little ones, both born and unborn."

Dinwiddie said she met Roeder while picketing outside the Kansas City Planned Parenthood clinic in 1996. Roeder walked into the clinic and asked to see the doctor, Robert Crist, she said.

"Robert Crist came out and he stared at him for approximately 45 seconds," she said. "Then he (Roeder) said, 'I've seen you now.' Then he turned his back and walked away, and they were scared to death. On the way out, he gave me a great big hug and he said, 'I've seen you in the newspaper. I just love what you're doing.'^"

Roeder also was a subscriber to Prayer and Action News, a magazine that advocated the justifiable homicide position, said publisher Dave Leach, an anti-abortion activist from Des Moines, Iowa.

In 2007, someone named Scott Roeder posted the following on the Website of anti-abortion group Operation Rescue (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/31/scott-roeder-held-as-pers_n_209551.html):

Bleass everyone for attending and praying in May to bring justice to Tiller and the closing of his death camp. Sometime soon, would it be feasible to organize as many people as possible to attend Tillers church (inside, not just outside) to have much more of a presence and possibly ask questions of the Pastor, Deacons, Elders and members while there? Doesn't seem like it would hurt anything but bring more attention to Tiller.

But I do admit it's a rather loose association and so I have obviously overstated my case here. As a display of my penitence let me add this...

SuspectCorner > :spanking: < sbark

[trickblue]

only evangelical ones, not all churches are anti-choice

The Catholic church is not evenagelical and he wouldn't be allowed there...

That's way to general of a statement...

[DFWJC]

The Catholic church is not evenagelical and he wouldn't be allowed there...

That's way to general of a statement...

That's for sure.

[Doomsday101]

While I am very much opposed to late term abortion there is no rational excuse for killing this doctor. I think people have a right to protest and vote for those who could help abolish this procedure but again there is no excuse for the person who committed this crime.

[ChldsPlay]

I wonder what people would say about Roeder if Tiller had been killing babies 6 months after their birth and the government and law said it was legal for him to do so?

[CanadianCowboysFan]

I wonder what people would say about Roeder if Tiller had been killing babies 6 months after their birth and the government and law said it was legal for him to do so?

:rolleyes:

[ScipioCowboy]

Link?

[bbgun]

This is an obscenely bigoted remark and you are out of line :mad:

This thread will be closed any second now.

[Hostile]

I am not a abortion advocate but I find many of the comments about people being happy that the Dr. is dead crazy. They really make you no better than those you hate for being pro choice.Echo this.

[wilatino_98]

the guy who killed him got arrested in kansas it was very easy to spot he had a hanger stickin out of his head and he claimed self defense.

[big dog cowboy]

the guy who killed him got arrested in kansas
The guy who got arrested lived in Kansas. He was just driving home.

[ChldsPlay]

:rolleyes:

Don't want to think about that then? What he was doing is just as bad, if not exactly the same thing, to millions of people.

[Bach]

the guy who killed him got arrested in kansas it was very easy to spot he had a hanger stickin out of his head and he claimed self defense.

:lmao2:

[CowboyMcCoy]

I'm a so-called leftist, and I know why this guy was going to church. It's five letters G.U.I.L.T. and it's only ironic he got shot there. This would make for a good novel if there are any serious writers on ethics out there. True story or fiction, it'd make for a good piece, I think.

I'm a leftist against abortion, so I could see both sides of it pretty clearly, the hypocrisy, the guilt, the murder--all of it. Seriously, it'd be a cool book to write.