Question for the Liberal Side

[ABQCOWBOY]

I am confused on what the position is for the Liberals on Healthcare Coverage for Illegals. Not asking Conservatives here. I already know what you believe on this. Primarily want to gain a better understanding of what the Liberals actually think of this issue.

Are most of you for providing coverage to illegals or are you not in favor of that?

Thank you,

[zrinkill]

You will have to wait till Miles/Rat/Ioz makes his newest username

My guess is it will have felix in it.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

They're human beings, you have to take care of them.

[ShiningStar]

They're human beings, you have to take care of them.


Why must WE have to take care of them?

[ABQCOWBOY]

They're human beings, you have to take care of them.

I'm primarily asking Liberals that are citizens of the U.S. While I appriciate your opinion, it doesn't provide me with any better understanding of the issue because you are not effected by this. Not trying to be rude Canadian. I'm just trying to understand a bit better.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

to be fair, you asked Liberals and I am member of the Liberal Party of Canada

:cool:

If you had asked "liberals", I wouldn't have answered ;)

[Rogah]

They're human beings, you have to take care of them.There's about 6.5 billion human beings on the planet. Is it the responsibility of the United States government to "take care of" each and every single one?

Maybe Canada's government can start contributing to the U.S. Treasury to help us "take care of" the rest of the world. Would you support that? Or are we supposed to foot the bill all on our own?

[ShiningStar]

to be fair, you asked Liberals and I am member of the Liberal Party of Canada

:cool:

If you had asked "liberals", I wouldn't have answered ;)


you are still welcomed to answer my question. For me its not where you are from, but your mindset. So answer away.

[zrinkill]

There's about 6.5 billion human beings on the planet. Is it the responsibility of the United States government to "take care of" each and every single one?

Maybe Canada's government can start contributing to the U.S. Treasury to help us "take care of" the rest of the world. Would you support that? Or are we supposed to foot the bill all on our own?


:hammer:

[JBond]

You will have to wait till Miles/Rat/Ioz makes his newest username

My guess is it will have felix in it.

When I was 16, I had a part time job at a video store that also rented adult films. One day I was not paying attention, as 16 years olds tend to do, and put Felix the Cat (adult film cartoon version) back in the children's section. Needless to say the parent that walked in on their kids watching that was not very happy. When he came back in, I suggested he should check the titles of the movies his kids are renting. I did not work there long.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

There's about 6.5 billion human beings on the planet. Is it the responsibility of the United States government to "take care of" each and every single one?

Maybe Canada's government can start contributing to the U.S. Treasury to help us "take care of" the rest of the world. Would you support that? Or are we supposed to foot the bill all on our own?

would you rather an illegal who is ill spread his diseases to legals instead of treating him/her?

remember, it is in your best interest to treat illegals because diseases do not check your immigration/citizenship status.

[CowboyMcCoy]

I am highly against health care coverage for illegals. We have no obligation to treat illegals. In fact, my position is that as soon as an illegal alien shows up to the ER needing treatment, the first thing that should be done is contact immigration services so they can be transported back to their country, where they can obtain medical services there.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

When I was 16, I had a part time job at a video store that also rented adult films. One day I was not paying attention, as 16 years olds tend to do, and put Felix the Cat (adult film cartoon version) back in the children's section. Needless to say the parent that walked in on their kids watching that was not very happy. When he came back in, I suggested he should check the titles of the movies his kids are renting. I did not work there long.

Nice,

[ABQCOWBOY]

to be fair, you asked Liberals and I am member of the Liberal Party of Canada

:cool:

If you had asked "liberals", I wouldn't have answered ;)

I understand. It was my error and I apologize. I was not specific enough. I'm simply trying to understand. It is my opinion that Nationalized Healthcare is going to fail and if that happens, it will be an opportunity to work towards something that might be more bi-partisan. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of the fundamental differences in each sides position. What are the deal breakers, if you will. If this can be done in a none confrontational way, then I think we are all the better for it.

[Rogah]

would you rather an illegal who is ill spread his diseases to legals instead of treating him/her?

remember, it is in your best interest to treat illegals because diseases do not check your immigration/citizenship status.Please have the courage to answer my questions, instead of ignoring them and just responding with questions of your own. Once you do so, I will be glad to answer each and every single one of yours. Thank you.

[zrinkill]

would you rather an illegal who is ill spread his diseases to legals instead of treating him/her?

I would rather arrest him/her and deport him/her like the criminal he/she is.

[CowboyMcCoy]

would you rather an illegal who is ill spread his diseases to legals instead of treating him/her?

remember, it is in your best interest to treat illegals because diseases do not check your immigration/citizenship status.

That's what quarantines are for.

[JBond]

I have heard the libs claims that we are spending approximately $7600 per person in the US on health care. 25 million illegals X $7600 is $190,000,000,000. A $190 billion would go a long way to helping those poor unfortunate Americans. Just a thought.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

People do not like change so I am not surprised that many in the US are opposed to a national health care plan. It doesn't help that many who are opposed are using inflammatory terms (see Glen Beck basically comparing Obama to Mao Tse Tung".

the illegal issue is a tough one for anyone to get around. Would I personally want to pay money to care for someone who doesn't pay tax, no, but it is already happening for you.

There are a ton of people in the US who don't pay tax, or who have income they hide etc. They are ripping you off as much as the illegal.

I still see the bill failing in the US though.

Apparently Canada had the same issues when we brought in our system.

Would you feel better if as up here, the federal government sets the minimum standards but the states run it? Here the provinces determine how to spend the health money.

Quebec is going to fund IVF treatments, in BC where I live, my wife and I had to pay our own for example.

[ABQCOWBOY]

would you rather an illegal who is ill spread his diseases to legals instead of treating him/her?

remember, it is in your best interest to treat illegals because diseases do not check your immigration/citizenship status.

At some point, reality has to meet with expectation. We don't have the resources to do what you suggest IMO. I mean, I would be all for helping every human being in the world if it were something that we could do, as a country, without putting our own citizens or economy at risk. That is not feasable. This is exactly why I am interested in U.S. Liberal opinions. They have to live with the decisions we make. Canada, not so much.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Please have the courage to answer my questions, instead of ignoring them and just responding with questions of your own. Once you do so, I will be glad to answer each and every single one of yours. Thank you.

your questions were as rhetorical as mine.

You aren't getting 6.5 billion coming to the US illegally so your question was bogus from the start.

[CowboyMcCoy]

At some point, reality has to meet with expectation. We don't have the resources to do what you suggest IMO. I mean, I would be all for helping every human being in the world if it were something that we could do, as a country, without putting our own citizens or economy at risk. That is not feasable. This is exactly why I am interested in U.S. Liberal opinions. They have to live with the decisions we make. Canada, not so much.

Not only am I against treating illegals with health care, we should take a proactive approach to deporting each and every one of them. And employers who hire them should be fined heavily until the point is made that "illegal" means illegal.

[Heisenberg]

I guess I qualify as "liberal" (I'm much closer to Libertarian) on this board, but I would say no.

We'll end up taking care of them one way or another if they get sick though.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

I guess I qualify as "liberal" (I'm much closer to Libertarian) on this board, but I would say no.

We'll end up taking care of them one way or another if they get sick though.

that's the problem, ultimately you have to care for them whether you want to or not. It's impossible not to do so.

Are you going to deny an illegal immigrant's child cancer treatment?

[Rogah]

your questions were as rhetorical as mine.

You aren't getting 6.5 billion coming to the US illegally so your question was bogus from the start.The question was bogus only because it was a logical derivation of a bogus statement.

You said "They're human beings, you have to take care of them." One may logically infer from this statement that we must take care of all human beings. So are you retracting your statement as written, and qualifying it to mean that we must "take care of" just the human beings on our own soil, and to hell with everybody else?

I am just trying to understand your take on this issue, which is difficult to do when you make a statement and then run away from the statement as fast as you possibly can.

[Heisenberg]

that's the problem, ultimately you have to care for them whether you want to or not. It's impossible not to do so.

Are you going to deny an illegal immigrant's child cancer treatment?

Well, you can't have people just crossing the border for health care. While that might not be a problem in other countries, it could easily become one in the United States. Though, again, it already happens and we already pay for it, so I guess there's not a whole lot of difference. One is just an out of sight out of mind deal and the other is a highly publicized "plan".

[Doomsday101]

We currently do take care of illegals for Harris County alone that cost the tax payer over 600 million over the last 3 years. I think in emergency situation yes a person should be treated no matter what but all in all the US needs to do real reform with immigration and send these people back to their own country for those who want to enter legally become US citizen then do it by the book or expect to be deported.

[Rogah]

that's the problem, ultimately you have to care for them whether you want to or not. It's impossible not to do so.

Are you going to deny an illegal immigrant's child cancer treatment?Here's another logical fallacy you are engaging in: The presumption that our resources are unlimited when they are, in fact, not. So a better question is:

Assume an American child and an illegal immigrant has cancer, and you only have the resources to treat one. Which child should the United States government provide treatement for, and which one should be denied?

[CanadianCowboysFan]

The question was bogus only because it was a logical derivation of a bogus statement.

You said "They're human beings, you have to take care of them." One may logically infer from this statement that we must take care of all human beings. So are you retracting your statement as written, and qualifying it to mean that we must "take care of" just the human beings on our own soil, and to hell with everybody else?

I am just trying to understand your take on this issue, which is difficult to do when you make a statement and then run away from the statement as fast as you possibly can.

I didn't run away from anything. We are talking about illegals in the US. I said they are human beings so you must care for them, referring obviously to illegals in the US. You then stated do we have to take care of 6.5 billion people on the planet which is ridiculous because they are not all illegals in the US.

No logical rational person could think my statement could be extrapolated to mean you had to care for all 6.5 billion on Earth.

[CowboyMcCoy]

We currently do take care of illegals for Harris County alone that cost the tax payer over 600 million over the last 3 years. I think in emergency situation yes a person should be treated no matter what but all in all the US needs to do real reform with immigration and send these people back to their own country for those who want to enter legally become US citizen then do it by the book or expect to be deported.

INS should patrol emergency rooms. As soon as they're treated, off they go. This is a HUGE problem for our country and its economy.

[CowboyMcCoy]

Here's another logical fallacy you are engaging in: The presumption that our resources are unlimited when they are, in fact, not. So a better question is:

Assume an American child and an illegal immigrant has cancer, and you only have the resources to treat one. Which child should the United States government provide treatement for, and which one should be denied?

Well, that's easy, Rogah. Only a stupid person would get that answer wrong.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Here's another logical fallacy you are engaging in: The presumption that our resources are unlimited when they are, in fact, not. So a better question is:

Assume an American child and an illegal immigrant has cancer, and you only have the resources to treat one. Which child should the United States government provide treatement for, and which one should be denied?

which one needs the treatment more?

how about an illegal immigrant child vs a 90 year old alcoholic american who needs a liver transplant because of a damaged liver but only enough money to do one procedure?

[Doomsday101]

I didn't run away from anything. We are talking about illegals in the US. I said they are human beings so you must care for them, referring obviously to illegals in the US. You then stated do we have to take care of 6.5 billion people on the planet which is ridiculous because they are not all illegals in the US.

No logical rational person could think my statement could be extrapolated to mean you had to care for all 6.5 billion on Earth.

Emergency care yes I would agree, extended care? No. How about the US just ship the long term patients to Canada. I seriously doubt the people in Canada would like that.

[Rogah]

I didn't run away from anything. We are talking about illegals in the US. I said they are human beings so you must care for them, referring obviously to illegals in the US.I disagree that it was "referring obviously to illegal in the US" because if you make the statement "they're human beings, you have to take care of them" then that clearly implies a responsibility to take care of humanity. Nevertheless, I thank you for your clarification.
You then stated do we have to take care of 6.5 billion people on the planet which is ridiculous because they are not all illegals in the US.

No logical rational person could think my statement could be extrapolated to mean you had to care for all 6.5 billion on Earth.I disagree. When you call on the government to be morally responsible for illegals since they are human beings, then it quite clearly implies a moral responsibility for people, not just those on American soil.

So then shall I assume you don't believe the Canadian government should have any responsibilty to help the American government "take care of" the human beings on our soil?

[Doomsday101]

which one needs the treatment more?

how about an illegal immigrant child vs a 90 year old alcoholic american who needs a liver transplant because of a damaged liver but only enough money to do one procedure?

David Crosby already got it. :laugh2:

[CowboyMcCoy]

I would rather arrest him/her and deport him/her like the criminal he/she is.


I agree wholeheartedly.

[Rogah]

which one needs the treatment more?You really just can't answer questions, can you? I give a hypothetical situation and you refuse to answer it directly, you just give a question of your own.

Assume 2 children have identical cancers. One is an American citizen, one is an illegal. Both are flat broke and we have the public resources available to treat only one. One is going to live, one is going to die. Which child should an American hospital, receiving compensation from the American government, treat?
how about an illegal immigrant child vs a 90 year old alcoholic american who needs a liver transplant because of a damaged liver but only enough money to do one procedure?If we're talking about public funds, I say an American citizen with a life-and-death situation takes place over an illegal immigrant in all cases, period, end of discussion.

[Temo]

Ignore CanadianCowboysFan for a moment.

I woudl think lik 80% of liberals are against health coverage of illegals. It's a red herring that conservatives seem to use all the time.

[Rogah]

Ignore CanadianCowboysFan for a moment.

I woudl think lik 80% of liberals are against health coverage of illegals. It's a red herring that conservatives seem to use all the time.I disagree. Oh sure, they say they're against health coverage of illegals. Meanwhile they do everything they can to make sure illegals are as well taken care of as possible, whether we're talking about state-funded tuition or emergency room care for the common cold.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Ignore CanadianCowboysFan for a moment.

I woudl think lik 80% of liberals are against health coverage of illegals. It's a red herring that conservatives seem to use all the time.

I don't believe it is a Red Herring at all. It was clearly proposed in the first bill that illegals would be covered. It was later changed to say that only citizens would be covered but immigration legislation was also introduced that said amnesty was to be provided after something like 6 months for all illegals. I believe that it is a real concerned, regardless of support of the left or not. It comes down to who is writting the bill and what is contained in the bill, should it get passed.

This does not have to be contentious. I'm simply trying to find commen ground and if what I'm hearing you say is true, their is commen ground on this issue.

[CowboyMcCoy]

I disagree. Oh sure, they say they're against health coverage of illegals. Meanwhile they do everything they can to make sure illegals are as well taken care of as possible, whether we're talking about state-funded tuition or emergency room care for the common cold.

Don't forget the conservative viewpoint that employers are entitled to cheap labor. It's not just a "liberal" thing, mind you.

[Temo]

I have no idea what previous versions of the bill said, that is true. Hell, I have no idea what the hell present version says.

My point is that other than CandianCowboysFan here, I've never heard any rational person, of either policial persuasion, tell me that they feel all illegal aliens should be covered by a national health insurance program.

[Doomsday101]

Ignore CanadianCowboysFan for a moment.

I woudl think lik 80% of liberals are against health coverage of illegals. It's a red herring that conservatives seem to use all the time.

I use no red herring here I do not want the federal Government running health care plain and simple. They can't handle what they have now it is not hard to find government waste and total mismanagement as well as incompetency. Sorry if the liberals can’t live their lives without total Government involvement from cradle to grave you need someone to take care of you and you don’t care what is cost as long as you get yours.

[JBond]

I have no idea what previous versions of the bill said, that is true. Hell, I have no idea what the hell present version says.

My point is that other than CandianCowboysFan here, I've never heard any rational person, of either policial persuasion, tell me that they feel all illegal aliens should be covered by a national health insurance program.

You're forgetting the idiots in congress who wrote that into HR3200. I guess you should attend a town hall and ask them why they are betraying you. Let them know how irrational they are. You need to speak up and let them know.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I have no idea what previous versions of the bill said, that is true. Hell, I have no idea what the hell present version says.

My point is that other than CandianCowboysFan here, I've never heard any rational person, of either policial persuasion, tell me that they feel all illegal aliens should be covered by a national health insurance program.

So then, based on what I think you are saying, would you be upset if Illegal Aliens were covered in whatever Healthcare Reform that gets passed, regardless of if it were Democrats who pledged it?

[Doomsday101]

Simple solution to the current problem take the medical expense of illegal’s and hand the bill over to Mexico for payment. Pay up or do not expect another red cent from the US

[JBond]

Simple solution to the current problem take the medical expense of illegal’s and hand the bill over to Mexico for payment. Pay up or do not expect another red cent from the US

Dems are always in favor of new taxes. Just tax all money transfers to Mexico at 90%.

[Temo]

You're forgetting the idiots in congress who wrote that into HR3200. I guess you should attend a town hall and ask them why they are betraying you. Let them know how irrational they are. You need to speak up and let them know.

Well, I'm not really a town hall guy (as you may remember I've made fun of people who attend townhalls on a regular basis, haha).

But in any case, I would imagine that attending a town hall at this point is a moot point. It's pretty obvious that the health care bill that gets passed (if one does get passed) will not be anywhere close to what Obama had wanted in the beginning, for better or worse (and I really don't know if it's for the better or worse).

[Temo]

So then, based on what I think you are saying, would you be upset if Illegal Aliens were covered in whatever Healthcare Reform that gets passed, regardless of if it were Democrats who pledged it?

Yes. I cannot conceive of anyway such a measure would be beneficial.

I mean, there are gray areas (What do you do if an illegal alien has been hurt while working on a farm, is critically injured, and need to be stabilized? Let them die on the street?), but in general we do agree.

[ABQCOWBOY]

So, we have not really gotten a lot of input from the left but based off of what we have received, do we think it's fair to say that both Liberals and Conservatives agree that Illegals should not be covered under Healthcare Reform?

[CowboyMcCoy]

So, we have not really gotten a lot of input from the left but based off of what we have received, do we think it's fair to say that both Liberals and Conservatives agree that Illegals should not be covered under Healthcare Reform?

I think it's fair to say that liberals lose sympathy for these people when it wrecks the health care system, the legal system and the labor market. It's flat out wrong, yet this country continues to turn a blind eye to the matter.

I'm as liberal as they come on some issues, but if being "liberal" means tolerating this garbage then I'm conservative in regards to illegal immigrants. This shouldn't be a liberal/conservative issue. This is one issue we can all agree on.

I argue it's the conservatives who are responsible for this, being that they are the ones who reap the benefits of cheap, illegal labor, which provides a dilemma to provide health care for them. Businesses which employ them don't provide insurance being that they're illegal and they can't legally do so, nor would they want to because it would cost them money.

Conservatives need to look at themselves in order to solve this "liberal" problem.

[Hoofbite]

I don't affiliate with either party but thought I might throw my 2 cents in.

I don't think illegals should be granted healthcare but I feel it is the responsibility of the medical field to treat people in danger no matter who they are.

Does that mean I am in favor of them getting healthcare? Hell no. They shouldn't get what many Americans are unable to get, key word being "shouldn't". However, as I believe the medical field has an obligation to society and to humanity to help people without prejudice, I know they will. Nothing you can really do about it, just have to accept it as something that will be there.

[Bob Sacamano]

close the freaking book -- Derrick Vineyard

[ABQCOWBOY]

I don't affiliate with either party but thought I might throw my 2 cents in.

I don't think illegals should be granted healthcare but I feel it is the responsibility of the medical field to treat people in danger no matter who they are.

Does that mean I am in favor of them getting healthcare? Hell no. They shouldn't get what many Americans are unable to get, key word being "shouldn't". However, as I believe the medical field has an obligation to society and to humanity to help people without prejudice, I know they will. Nothing you can really do about it, just have to accept it as something that will be there.

So then hoof, would it be acceptable to you if, for example, we constructed a provision that basically said, the Government would be responsible for running a program that provided healthcare to illegals? Perhaps it would not be as comprehensive, more like a clinic, if you will. This would relieve the influx of patient care on the emergency healthcare system, would still allow for Citizens to have private healthcare and would assist illegals with healthcare? Would something like that work for you?

[CowboyMcCoy]

So then hoof, would it be acceptable to you if, for example, we constructed a provision that basically said, the Government would be responsible for running a program that provided healthcare to illegals? Perhaps it would not be as comprehensive, more like a clinic, if you will. This would relieve the influx of patient care on the emergency healthcare system, would still allow for Citizens to have private healthcare and would assist illegals with healthcare? Would something like that work for you?

Semantics.

[DaBoys4Life]

They're human beings, you have to take care of them.

So can you give me like 800 dollars a month?

[Heisenberg]

So then hoof, would it be acceptable to you if, for example, we constructed a provision that basically said, the Government would be responsible for running a program that provided healthcare to illegals? Perhaps it would not be as comprehensive, more like a clinic, if you will. This would relieve the influx of patient care on the emergency healthcare system, would still allow for Citizens to have private healthcare and would assist illegals with healthcare? Would something like that work for you?

You didn't ask me, but I don't think we should specifically set up something for illegal immigrants. Is there a burden on the current emergency care system because of illegal immigrants being able to use it with no way of paying? I'm sure there is. I'd imagine that amount is probably still less than the amount that non-paying US citizens cost the system.

Having said that, I don't like the idea of setting up separate clinics for "illegals". It seems half the country is just fine with what we have now and I'm told all the time that we have the best healthcare in the world, well, why change it?

[ABQCOWBOY]

You didn't ask me, but I don't think we should specifically set up something for illegal immigrants. Is there a burden on the current emergency care system because of illegal immigrants being able to use it with no way of paying? I'm sure there is. I'd imagine that amount is probably still less than the amount that non-paying US citizens cost the system.

Having said that, I don't like the idea of setting up separate clinics for "illegals". It seems half the country is just fine with what we have now and I'm told all the time that we have the best healthcare in the world, well, why change it?

As I see it Ozzu, we can't just continue to do what we have in the past. I mean, we have to be more productive in the area of healthcare or it will come down to adopting policies that will be hard on our own citizens. I don't think their is any question on that. Right now, we do provide Emergency healthcare for illegals and it is more costly then normal treatment so it does make sense to provide an alternative healthcare options, if only to reduce costs. However, I don't think it needs to be the kind of care that citizens who pay into the system, citizens who are providing for insurance throw private funding should get. That, to me, is not right and will never work.

To make this thing work, we have to be creative. To me, their is no question that illegals have to be delt with. No system can sustain if you have no control over how many people you may have to account for from year to year. That's a recipe for disaster.

[Heisenberg]

As I see it Ozzu, we can't just continue to do what we have in the past. I mean, we have to be more productive in the area of healthcare or it will come down to adopting policies that will be hard on our own citizens. I don't think their is any question on that. Right now, we do provide Emergency healthcare for illegals and it is more costly then normal treatment so it does make sense to provide an alternative healthcare options, if only to reduce costs. However, I don't think it needs to be the kind of care that citizens who pay into the system, citizens who are providing for insurance throw private funding should get. That, to me, is not right and will never work.

To make this thing work, we have to be creative. To me, their is no question that illegals have to be delt with. No system can sustain if you have no control over how many people you may have to account for from year to year. That's a recipe for disaster.

I understand your point, but again, the system would have to put in place for that and the funding to set up a system separate just for illegals would cause quite a few issues. For instance, when you call an ambulance for an emergency, they take you to the nearest hospital that has the capability to take care of the issue that you have.

Do the personnel on the ambulance ask if you're a legal citizen and then divert to the nearest "illegal" clinic no matter the distance? What if that clinic isn't equipped to handle what is wrong with the person they are transporting?

There isn't any easy solution, but the infrastructure we have now at least provides good emergency care when you need it the vast majority of the time. You'd have to build a whole new infrastructure and honestly, I doubt it would be worth the cost.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I understand your point, but again, the system we would have to put in place for that and the funding to set up a system separate just for illegals would cause quite a few issues. For instance, when you call an ambulance for an emergency, they take you to the nearest hospital that has the capability to take care of the issue that you have.

Do the personnel on the ambulance ask if you're a legal citizen and then divert to the nearest "illegal" clinic no matter the distance? What if that clinic isn't equipped to handle what is wrong with the person they are transporting?

There isn't any easy solution, but the infrastructure we have now at least provides good emergency care when you need it the vast majority of the time. You'd have to build a whole new infrastructure and honestly, I doubt it would be worth the cost.

I think that if it's truely an emergency, then you just take the patient and get them treated. The problem rests with emergency treatments for Colds or less serious ailments. The costs are not associated with the actual emergencies. They are associated with emergency treatments for things that are not emergencies.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

You really just can't answer questions, can you? I give a hypothetical situation and you refuse to answer it directly, you just give a question of your own.

Assume 2 children have identical cancers. One is an American citizen, one is an illegal. Both are flat broke and we have the public resources available to treat only one. One is going to live, one is going to die. Which child should an American hospital, receiving compensation from the American government, treat?
If we're talking about public funds, I say an American citizen with a life-and-death situation takes place over an illegal immigrant in all cases, period, end of discussion.

so even though the old guy will only be a drain the rest of his life, you would treat him over the child that might ultimately cure cancer later in life?

Re the first bogus hypothetical, fine treat the American but only if his parents pay taxes too (no underground economy tax dodgers)

[Heisenberg]

I think that if it's truely an emergency, then you just take the patient and get them treated. The problem rests with emergency treatments for Colds or less serious ailments. The costs are not associated with the actual emergencies. They are associated with emergency treatments for things that are not emergencies.

If they aren't a legal citizen, I don't think we should provide for more than emergency care. Once they are to a point that they are stable enough to be released, they are on their own. So, I don't really see it as necessary to build clinics for things that aren't really life or death emergencies.

I'm a heartless ******* though. :D

[CanadianCowboysFan]

If they aren't a legal citizen, I don't think we should provide for more than emergency care. Once they are to a point that they are stable enough to be released, they are on their own. So, I don't really see it as necessary to build clinics for things that aren't really life or death emergencies.

I'm a heartless ******* though. :D

At least you're honest about it ;)

People will always abuse the system. I was in emerg once for really bad flu, I needed. A woman was in there (druggie) who thought she was having a miscarriage but hadn't even confirmed she was pregnant.

No matter what the system, there are problems and waste. My system has flaws, your system has flaws.

[Heisenberg]

At least you're honest about it ;)

People will always abuse the system. I was in emerg once for really bad flu, I needed. A woman was in there (druggie) who thought she was having a miscarriage but hadn't even confirmed she was pregnant.

No matter what the system, there are problems and waste. My system has flaws, your system has flaws.

And that's true. What might not be life or death one day could turn into something life or death if not diagnosed by trained medical personnel. At that point, we are still going to assume the cost and it might even cost us more than if we had just provided medical care in the first place.

Again, as I said earlier, there isn't an easy solution. Well, I guess the easy solution is to cover everyone, but we as a country don't really want to pay for it. So, that doesn't really work.

[DaBoys4Life]

I don't think illegals should have anything.

[Heisenberg]

I don't think illegals should have anything.

Just a hypothetical for you then. Lets say someone gets hit by a car and an ambulance is called. This person is going to die without medical treatment. The ambulance gets there and we find out that this person is in the country illegally. Do you just leave them to die on the street?

That's not a solution and it will never happen.

[Phrozen Phil]

Civilized discourse on health care? Cool..

I'm really not sure that the U.S. is ready for a single payer universal health care system. That's not offered as an insult, it's simply my view of the country to the South. Part of the issue is defining "coverage" and many of you guys have pointed that out in one form or another. The issue of treating illegals is hard for me to judge, because I haven't seen the issue of illegal immigration on the scale that you guys have. I do wonder why the focus of the problem doesn't shift to the source.

Why can't Mexicans get rudimentary health care in Mexico? Until that issue is addressed, it may not matter what laws or safeguards you put up in the U.S., you will always have that issue facing you, barring the invention of a force field that selectively filters out illegals. Some of you will argue that coverage of these folks is not your problem. You may be right, but they're still there and you still see them. Whether it's emergency coverage or treatment of a chronic, life threatening condition, the decisions will not be easy or cheap. Until third world countries are able to deal with their own issues on health care (and for me that means clean water and enough food to feed themselves) then the issues will not go away. It's one thin to have free trade with Mexico, but shouldn't these kinds of issues be part of the discussion?

[ABQCOWBOY]

so even though the old guy will only be a drain the rest of his life, you would treat him over the child that might ultimately cure cancer later in life?

Re the first bogus hypothetical, fine treat the American but only if his parents pay taxes too (no underground economy tax dodgers)

What if the old guy is the guy who actually did cure cancer when he was younger the the young kid grows up to be a mass murderer?

We can play these games all day but in the end, who am I to say that one life is more important then the other if both are citizens of this country?

[ABQCOWBOY]

If they aren't a legal citizen, I don't think we should provide for more than emergency care. Once they are to a point that they are stable enough to be released, they are on their own. So, I don't really see it as necessary to build clinics for things that aren't really life or death emergencies.

I'm a heartless ******* though. :D

The reason you provide more is because as a nation, we have already commited to providing more. For it or against it, we do not deny care if somebody comes to the emergency room. The thing you want to do is bring down the cost of emergency care so it would make sense to create a treatment center that could allow for this.

[Heisenberg]

To me, it all hinges on keeping people from entering the country illegally. Those that are already here? Lucky you. You made it. Lets give them a path to citizenship so that they can be "on the grid" and start paying taxes. The issue is shutting off the flow into the country.

If illegal immigrants become a miniscule percentage of what they are now, this issue becomes moot because you can cover them with barely any strain on the system.

[Phrozen Phil]

To me, it all hinges on keeping people from entering the country illegally. Those that are already here? Lucky you. You made it. Lets give them a path to citizenship so that they can be "on the grid" and start paying taxes. The issue is shutting off the flow into the country.

If illegal immigrants become a miniscule percentage of what they are now, this issue becomes moot because you can cover them with barely any strain on the system.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the intent, but I would refer you back to my earlier comment. Shouldn't the issue be about them wanting to stay where they are?

[Doomsday101]

To me, it all hinges on keeping people from entering the country illegally. Those that are already here? Lucky you. You made it. Lets give them a path to citizenship so that they can be "on the grid" and start paying taxes. The issue is shutting off the flow into the country.

If illegal immigrants become a miniscule percentage of what they are now, this issue becomes moot because you can cover them with barely any strain on the system.

Why should the ones who are here illegally now be given a free pass for breaking the law? I keep hearing politician says we can't send them all back? Why not? Funny thing is many do not want to be Americans they just want to come work and they send much of the money back home to Mexico.

[Heisenberg]

I'm not disagreeing with you on the intent, but I would refer you back to my earlier comment. Shouldn't the issue be about them wanting to stay where they are?

Exactly and there isn't much the US can do to help without incurring significant costs that would far outweigh just covering illegal immigrants in the first place.

We can't win. :D

[Heisenberg]

Why should the ones who are here illegally now be given a free pass for breaking the law? I keep hearing politician says we can't send them all back? Why not? Funny thing is many do not want to be Americans they just want to come work and they send much of the money back home to Mexico.

Well, you deport the ones that don't want to become citizens. You just give them a path to citizenship if they choose to take it. I see nothing wrong with people becoming citizens and paying taxes. That puts them on equal footing with the rest of us in my eyes.

[Doomsday101]

Well, you deport the ones that don't want to become citizens. You just give them a path to citizenship if they choose to take it. I see nothing wrong with people becoming citizens and paying taxes. That puts them on equal footing with the rest of us in my eyes.

I would give you 30 days to report to the INS at which point you would go to the back of the line to become a citizen and those who choose not to will be deported. When so many come here and go through the process and the time and effort to become citizen I think it is dead wrong to hand citizenship to those who broke our laws. I respect the law in any country I go to and damn it I expect our to be honored as well.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I think it's the part that has not been discussed enough is how immigration reform and healthcare reform need to work together. I honestly believe that both need to be addressed together. No matter what healthcare system we adopt, it's doomed to fail unless we come up with a reasonable policy on immigration.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I would give you 30 days to report to the INS at which point you would go to the back of the line to become a citizen and those who choose not to will be deported. When so many come here and go through the process and the time and effort to become citizen I think it is dead wrong to hand citizenship to those who broke our laws. I respect the law in any country I go to and damn it I expect our to be honored as well.

Well, I've said this before. I think we should consider going back to the Citizen Sponsorship Policy this country used to have in the early 20th Century.

[Doomsday101]

I think it's the part that has not been discussed enough is how immigration reform and healthcare reform need to work together. I honestly believe that both need to be addressed together. No matter what healthcare system we adopt, it's doomed to fail unless we come up with a reasonable policy on immigration.

I don't they are 2 different issues and while one may affect the other I think each should be dealt with separately

[Rogah]

so even though the old guy will only be a drain the rest of his life, you would treat him over the child that might ultimately cure cancer later in life?What part of "(regarding public funds) an American citizen with a life-and-death situation takes place over an illegal immigrant in all cases, period, end of discussion" did you not understand? I mean, seriously... was I too vague when I said "in all cases, period, end of discussion"...? Is there some sort of ambiguity in that statement that I am missing?

Oh an by the way... anyone who's pro-choice has absolutely no right playing the "that child might ultimately cure cancer later in life" card as you have done.
Re the first bogus hypothetical, fine treat the American but only if his parents pay taxes too (no underground economy tax dodgers)It amuses me how getting that response from you was like pulling teeth, and even then it was only begrudgingly given.

[Doomsday101]

While I consider myself a conservative and loved Reagan one thing I did not agree with and afraid we are about to do it again is give amnesty to around 15 million illegal’s with the promise of tighter boarder security and that did not happen then and I'm hearing the same song and dance this time around as well.

[ABQCOWBOY]

While I consider myself a conservative and loved Reagan one thing I did not agree with and afraid we are about to do it again is give amnesty to around 15 million illegal’s with the promise of tighter boarder security and that did not happen then and I'm hearing the same song and dance this time around as well.

I'm not in favor of this. It's delaying tactic that never comes up again once the next round gets voted in.

[Heisenberg]

While I consider myself a conservative and loved Reagan one thing I did not agree with and afraid we are about to do it again is give amnesty to around 15 million illegal’s with the promise of tighter boarder security and that did not happen then and I'm hearing the same song and dance this time around as well.

I would say you would need to tighten border security and then give amnesty. Not the other way around.

[DaBoys4Life]

Just a hypothetical for you then. Lets say someone gets hit by a car and an ambulance is called. This person is going to die without medical treatment. The ambulance gets there and we find out that this person is in the country illegally. Do you just leave them to die on the street?

That's not a solution and it will never happen.

I never thought of it that way.

[Doomsday101]

I'm not in favor of this. It's delaying tactic that never comes up again once the next round gets voted in.

Well I think this issue must be dealt with on it's on not part of a package plan. I think we will end up with 1 bill that screws us all the way around. Government ran healthcare that will get stick us with amnesty and false promise.

Republicans and Hopefully the Blue Dog Democrats will hold their ground not pass a poor government ran health bill.

Then deal with Immigration reform which the republicans should push strong for given the fact we have unemployment around 10% this is the time to strike to get real change in immigration and I don't want to see it watered down under another bill

[Heisenberg]

Perhaps tie immigration and health care together. The person comes to the hospital for care, they have to either start the process of becoming a legal citizen, or ICE is called once they are stable and they are taken back to their country.

Just thinking outside the box a little. :D

[Doomsday101]

I would say you would need to tighten border security and then give amnesty. Not the other way around.

I agree however I'm not for giving amnesty per say.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Well I think this issue must be dealt with on it's on not part of a package plan. I think we will end up with 1 bill that screws us all the way around. Government ran healthcare that will get stick us with amnesty and false promise.

Republicans and Hopefully the Blue Dog Democrats will hold their ground not pass a poor government ran health bill.

Then deal with Immigration reform which the republicans should push strong for given the fact we have unemployment around 10% this is the time to strike to get real change in immigration and I don't want to see it watered down under another bill

I did not say a packaged plan. I said addressed together and by that I mean, both reforms need to be worked now. If anything, I think you need to pass immigration reform first because if you don't, it won't get the attention.

If the Republican Party was smart, they would force Immigration reform in exchange for healthcare concession that allowed for healthcare coverage for all Americans. Now is the time to get that done IMO but, it can't be one sided. It has to be give and take.

[arglebargle]

I did not say a packaged plan. I said addressed together and by that I mean, both reforms need to be worked now. If anything, I think you need to pass immigration reform first because if you don't, it won't get the attention.

If the Republican Party was smart, they would force Immigration reform in exchange for healthcare concession that allowed for healthcare coverage for all Americans. Now is the time to get that done IMO but, it can't be one sided. It has to be give and take.

Dang, didn't get on early enough.

I think this is a very smart idea, and something that might work out advantageously for both political factions, and more importantly, for America.

On the original question, I have a lot of qualms. I've been to Mexico a lot and seen the conditions in some of the places there. No wonder some are willing to try their luck here. I've worked with illegals before, and many are good, hardworking folks who have the same quintessential American dream that countless others have shared. I also recall that the 'no exclusion' law for emergency rooms in Texas came about because some poor ******* was shuttled from emergency room to emergency room because he had no proof of insurance, until he died of something that could have easilly been dealt with.

Aside from the scammers and the day labor guys, American companies hire these illegals, because they can pay them a lot less. There's a whole lot of looking the other way. Why not have those companies pay for the medical bills? Perhaps then they'd look to hiring local folks instead, at a decent salary.

I'd be hard pressed to cut off emergency care from anyone, but on the other hand, I don't think we should be paying for their transplant surgery.

[CowboyMcCoy]

Why should the ones who are here illegally now be given a free pass for breaking the law? I keep hearing politician says we can't send them all back? Why not? Funny thing is many do not want to be Americans they just want to come work and they send much of the money back home to Mexico.

Absolutely, why not? And the ones that do want to be Americans come here; have a baby on our dime, then, poof! They're citizens. That's wrong. We have to pay for not only the medical cost of delivering a baby, but we also take on the burden of providing the parents with citizenship as well as supporting most of these new "American" families on welfare for at least 18 years.

[CowboyMcCoy]

I did not say a packaged plan. I said addressed together and by that I mean, both reforms need to be worked now. If anything, I think you need to pass immigration reform first because if you don't, it won't get the attention.

If the Republican Party was smart, they would force Immigration reform in exchange for healthcare concession that allowed for healthcare coverage for all Americans. Now is the time to get that done IMO but, it can't be one sided. It has to be give and take.

Brilliant! Except for it will never happen because the Republicans don't want immigration reform. It would take away from cheap labor and that would hurt some of the big businesses that support them. Look at it from both sides, ABQ. This isn't a Liberal issue as much as it is a Conservative one.

The public has to speak out on this, but they're too apathetic in general.

[CowboyMcCoy]

Dang, didn't get on early enough.

I think this is a very smart idea, and something that might work out advantageously for both political factions, and more importantly, for America.

On the original question, I have a lot of qualms. I've been to Mexico a lot and seen the conditions in some of the places there. No wonder some are willing to try their luck here. I've worked with illegals before, and many are good, hardworking folks who have the same quintessential American dream that countless others have shared. I also recall that the 'no exclusion' law for emergency rooms in Texas came about because some poor ******* was shuttled from emergency room to emergency room because he had no proof of insurance, until he died of something that could have easilly been dealt with.

Aside from the scammers and the day labor guys, American companies hire these illegals, because they can pay them a lot less. There's a whole lot of looking the other way. Why not have those companies pay for the medical bills? Perhaps then they'd look to hiring local folks instead, at a decent salary.

I'd be hard pressed to cut off emergency care from anyone, but on the other hand, I don't think we should be paying for their transplant surgery.

Now you're addressing the crux of the problem. But I think the bigger issue is to enforce immigration laws and start rounding them up and deporting them. That in and of itself would create more jobs for Americans. We should not have to bear the cost of Mexico's living conditions. That's up to... Mexico.

[da_whiz_kid]

I am a member of the Democratic party and I am liberal on a lot of issues, but I am not liberal on all. When it comes to immigration I am actually pretty conservative. I feel that we as citizens of this country should not have to pay for the health care of illegal immigrants. With that being said, as what was stated earlier, if an illegal was on the road and needed medical attention, they should not be left to die because they are not covered. Instead, they should be helped to survive. After that, I am all for deporting, or having them start the process for becoming a citizen. If they choose the citizen route they must do so in the time given to them, if not, they are deported no questions asked!

But as someone said earlier, I cannot blame these people for coming to this country to work. The problem with illegal immigration are the employers who employ them because of the cheap labor they provide. It's plain wrong. People will tell you nobody else is going to do the job, but that is wrong! Who did the jobs before? Low income, hardworking Americans did them before, and they would still do them if they were getting compensated correctly for their labor, but employers want to rip them off. The people who should really be punished are those who are employing illegal immigrants. A lot of the social economic problems which persist today are due to the growth of illegal immigrants entering into this country and working illegally. I strongly believe this!

I do understand why someone would include illegal immigrants in the health care bill. We as humans cannot help but be compassionate to others, it's in our hearts. With that being said, that is probably my main problem with the bill. I will definitely be doing more research elsewhere with the immigration issue in the bill, but as far as immigration goes, THAT IS MY ISSUE! I never post in here, I like to read, but I don't get into too much discussion due to the bias sources which BOTH sides use in here. It is quite annoying. LOL:laugh2:

[CowboyMcCoy]

My case in point, I was just walking home from Mr. Gattis after having a lovely dinner buffet when a car full of illegals started cat calling at my fiance'. At that point I gave them "the bird" and started walking across the street when one of them threw a full beer bottle, which narrowly missed me.

As a citizen of this country, I'm tired of the things that come with illegal immigrants; in this case being the criminal activity. I, as a law abiding citizen should not have to deal with an SUV full of illegals who can't control themselves because they never received a proper education from the country in which they illegally fled.

Our country should take the initiative to deal with these people, once and for all. Had they followed me home, I would have introduced them to my trusty old .45

Viva America.

LOL

[jrumann59]

Not to be harsh, ok yeah I am. Liberals believe in darwinism, correct? Going on that premise shouldn't nature just take its course let the stronger, smarter, more adaptable survive? Or is it since liberals, I mean extreme liberals, sees that one person as untapped resource for more social programs that ultimately suck the life out of you eventually. Damn now that I think about it that one scene in The Matrix where they show all the people basicly being used as batteries is symbolic illustration of socialism.

[CowboyMcCoy]

Not to be harsh, ok yeah I am. Liberals believe in darwinism, correct? Going on that premise shouldn't nature just take its course let the stronger, smarter, more adaptable survive? Or is it since liberals, I mean extreme liberals, sees that one person as untapped resource for more social programs that ultimately suck the life out of you eventually. Damn now that I think about it that one scene in The Matrix where they show all the people basicly being used as batteries is symbolic illustration of socialism.

Put the beer down and get back with us in the morning.

[speedkilz88]

If the Canadian's think the illegals should get free healthcare let's ship them all to Canada for it.

[CowboyMcCoy]

If the Canadian's think the illegals should get free healthcare let's ship them all to Canada for it.

That's the best idea I've yet to read in this thread.

[poke]

other than a couple of posters this has been a thought provoking thread.
thanks ABQ for another of your efforts to bring this type of discourse to this Zone.
not sure if i am a liberal or not due to my extreme disliking of all politicians,
and blind followers of any group.
i will state that i am not in favor of providing health care to illegals.
emergency care is another story though.

[Hoofbite]

other than a couple of posters this has been a thought provoking thread.
thanks ABQ for another of your efforts to bring this type of discourse to this Zone.
not sure if i am a liberal or not due to my extreme disliking of all politicians,
and blind followers of any group.
i will state that i am not in favor of providing health care to illegals.
emergency care is another story though.

Yes, this has been one of the more productive threads in the PZ.

[CliffnMesquite]

The only reason one party or the other would support free health care for illegal aliens would be because they think it would increase their standing in the Hispanic community and thus add to their vote totals. MY OWN PERSONAL feeling is that the far left wing of the democratic party does most of the pandering. But that's just because I'm an evil conservative who would let them all die in the desert. (slightly sarcastic)

[jrumann59]

The only reason one party or the other would support free health care for illegal aliens would be because they think it would increase their standing in the Hispanic community and thus add to their vote totals. MY OWN PERSONAL feeling is that the far left wing of the democratic party does most of the pandering. But that's just because I'm an evil conservative who would let them all die in the desert. (slightly sarcastic)


No I would let them die the extreme left or right. I mean its one thing to have a difference of opinion and I feel most self proclaimed liberals and conservatives have more in common with each other then their extremist brothers on the left or right respectively. The issue I have with both liberals and conservatives is their mouth pieces, Liberals have entertainers and news anchors who feel that their status in society gives them a prospective that should be respected when in reality when the Clooney's and Couric's of the world open their mouths they draw flies and actually alienate anyone but the extreme leftists to their cause. The conservatives have the same problem because they have about 5-6 blowhards on the radio that get all the air time and they do the same thing the liberals do just from a different angle.

Don't get me wrong I may listen to Rush or Savage or Hannity but I can only stomach their tired act for about 30 minutes. I really wish Jerry Doyle didn't get exiled to radio Siberia here in MD.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Dang, didn't get on early enough.

I think this is a very smart idea, and something that might work out advantageously for both political factions, and more importantly, for America.

On the original question, I have a lot of qualms. I've been to Mexico a lot and seen the conditions in some of the places there. No wonder some are willing to try their luck here. I've worked with illegals before, and many are good, hardworking folks who have the same quintessential American dream that countless others have shared. I also recall that the 'no exclusion' law for emergency rooms in Texas came about because some poor ******* was shuttled from emergency room to emergency room because he had no proof of insurance, until he died of something that could have easilly been dealt with.

Aside from the scammers and the day labor guys, American companies hire these illegals, because they can pay them a lot less. There's a whole lot of looking the other way. Why not have those companies pay for the medical bills? Perhaps then they'd look to hiring local folks instead, at a decent salary.

I'd be hard pressed to cut off emergency care from anyone, but on the other hand, I don't think we should be paying for their transplant surgery.

Much of the problem with hiring illegals, at least on things like construction are the fact that so many of these construction jobs are Union. Unions charge way to much for labor. I can't blame many of these jobs. It's a hard thing to overcome.

[CowboyWay]

My opinion is yeah, it sucks, but if someone shows up at the hospital with a broken arm, then yes, we should fix them up. Deport them shortly thereafter, of course, but we need to help them heal first.

I don't like it, but I don't want to turn people away who are hurt/sick.

Really, it would be no different than what happens now. You and I pay for it every time an illegal goes to the hospital now, so I'm not sure how anyone would think it'd be different with the healthcare bill .

[CliffnMesquite]

My opinion is yeah, it sucks, but if someone shows up at the hospital with a broken arm, then yes, we should fix them up. Deport them shortly thereafter, of course, but we need to help them heal first.

I don't like it, but I don't want to turn people away who are hurt/sick.

Really, it would be no different than what happens now. You and I pay for it every time an illegal goes to the hospital now, so I'm not sure how anyone would think it'd be different with the healthcare bill .

Perhaps a system could be devised so that when the illegals get uninsured care. After treatment they would be required to work off their bill? After all hospitals need housekeepers and janitors to. Then deport them.