who's better? Witten or Shockey?

[p1_]

I think Witten has made huge strides this year. He's had the better season than Shockey, and has made moves to surpass him. Y'all?

[dbair1967]

I think Witten has made huge strides this year. He's had the better season than Shockey, and has made moves to surpass him. Y'all?

pretty obvious...Witten is headed to Hawaii and Shockey isnt...Witten has better numbers, doesnt drop anywhere near as many passes as Shockey does and is a far better run blocker...Witten might have dropped two passes all yr, Shockey can do that in a quarter most weeks...

David

:jints:

[Quicksilver]

If for no other reason than Witten is one of the toughest players in football he's the better player.

Broken jaw, wired shut, ahh who cares Im playin!

Broken nose, gimme a bandaid and get me back in there.

Gotta love that guy.

[Waffle]

If for no other reason than Witten is one of the toughest players in football he's the better player.

Broken jaw, wired shut, ahh who cares Im playin!

Broken nose, gimme a bandaid and get me back in there.

Gotta love that guy.
Shockey needs his entire mouth wired shut...permanently!

[Derinyar]

Shockey needs his entire mouth wired shut...permanently!
But its politically incorrect to try and censure the idiot.

[Doomsday101]

I think Witten and not just as a ball player but as a team player. You will not see the antics from Witten that you see in Shockey, Witten just goes about his bussiness and does the job.

[Peterman60]

Shockey is ok, but he cant take a hit, he's injury prone. Look at Witten, he plays wil wires in his jaw and now with a busted up nose. Witten is a weapo that defenses have to defend everydown. He's an impact player.

[cowheel]

Witten.

Shockey is a great TE... but is inconsistent and has way too many drops.
If Witten could cut down the penalties, it wouldn't even be close.

Imagine what Witten could do if we had a real QB...

[p1_]

and where did we select him? Can you all say.....S-T-E-A-L???

Bill gets major props for this pick.

[ravidubey]

Witten is the better TE at this point though Shockey has more raw talent. Witten is almost as talented but has all the intangibles-- guile, team-first attitude, and teachability. Would Shockey have the patience to learn anything from Ben Coates?

[chinch]

Witten is a no-brainer over Shockey really.

His play was overrated from his nfl debut and local fans gave him a pass 'cause they needed *something* to be excited about as Giants fans. He made headlines for fighting in training camp as a rookie with veterans, dumb comments and acting like a fool, not for doing anything great on the field. He had a few bruising runs and a nice catch over Dawkins maybe but has many drops, including TDs and has been "soft" with nagging injuries.

[Mash]

Whitten is more of a complete football player.......he is tougher.

But Shockey has more speed...is more powerfull after the catch and IMHO is more of a game breaker then Witten.

We can't assume Witten is better because he is a pro-bowler....Shockey is in a new system....with a rookie QB......and isn't a focal point in the Giants offence this year.....that will change.

I like Witten better because he cost less and we didn't fork out a first round pick for him.

[Tio]

Id say witten, he is almost as athletic, a better blocker, a more of a team player, more reliabl hands, tougher, and is 21-22...

[Yakuza Rich]

Witten also leads all TE's in yards after the catch.


Rich.............

[MikeD17]

Witten has better hands, runs more precise routes , and is quicker. Hes also a better deep threat.


Shockey can break more tackles, rarely fumbles, is better catching the ball in traffic, and blocks alittle better then witten.


Its very close but being the cowboy fan that i am ill go with witten :jints: :p

[nathanlt]

I'm just thrilled that our 3rd round pick is being compared to a high profile TE. To know that Witten is better in a head to head matchup is even better.

[The30YardSlant]

I know that Shockey is better at calling BP a homo :D

[blindzebra]

Witten has better hands, runs more precise routes , and is quicker. Hes also a better deep threat.


Shockey can break more tackles, rarely fumbles, is better catching the ball in traffic, and blocks alittle better then witten.


Its very close but being the cowboy fan that i am ill go with witten :jints: :p

Shockey does NOT block better than Witten, Witten is not quicker or a better deep threat,and Shockey has fumbled 5 times with 10 TDs in his 3 seasons, while Witten has 2 fumbles and 6 TDs in 2.

You did get one thing right, it is close, but Witten is better. ;)

[AdamJT13]

Shockey has six touchdown catches this year, coming from 4, 1, 1, 2, 6 and 2 yards out. Last year, he had two TD catches -- both from 1 yard out (that's the same as Jeff Robinson this year). In 2002, his two TD catches were from 28 yards and 7 yards. For his career, his average TD catch is from a whopping 5.3 yards out, with only one longer than 7 yards.

Witten has five touchdown catches this year, coming from 10, 42, 17, 29 and 24 yards out. Last year, his only TD catch was a 36-yarder. For his career, his average TD catch is from 26.3 yards out, with none shorter than 10 yards.

So, which one is the gamebreaker?

[tyke1doe]

Witten, hands down.

Shockey may be more elusive than Witten, but that's about it.
Witten has greater mental toughness than Shockey, IMO. And his unassuming, hard-nose play makes him more prone to make the big play than a mistake, which Shockey is accustom to make.

Just imagine if we had a deep threat to add to this offense. I think Parcells alluded to this in one of his press conferences. If Glenn were still available, that would open the field for Witten especially since the safeties would have to focus on either Glenn or Keyshawn.

If Glenn does come back or we get a speedy reliable receiver, then watch Witten's productivity increase dramatically. I think he could be another Tony Gonzelaz.

[tyke1doe]

Shockey has six touchdown catches this year, coming from 4, 1, 1, 2, 6 and 2 yards out. Last year, he had two TD catches -- both from 1 yard out (that's the same as Jeff Robinson this year). In 2002, his two TD catches were from 28 yards and 7 yards. For his career, his average TD catch is from a whopping 5.3 yards out, with only one longer than 7 yards.

Witten has five touchdown catches this year, coming from 10, 42, 17, 29 and 24 yards out. Last year, his only TD catch was a 36-yarder. For his career, his average TD catch is from 26.3 yards out, with none shorter than 10 yards.

So, which one is the gamebreaker?


This is why I love reading Adam's post.

Always backs up his argument with facts and stats.

Great job, as always. :D

[Rack Bauer]

who's better? Witten or Shockey?


Shockey is better after the catch. He has a bit more speed and can break tackles a bit better then Witten.

But Witten can get open just as well as Shockey and he's a better blocker. Overall, Witten is the better player.

[Doomsday101]

Personal tidbit on Witten:

PERSONAL: Christopher Jason Witten attended Elizabethton, Tenn., High School and was a consensus All-America selection (Prep Star, Parade, Gridiron Greats, USA Today, Blue Chip Illustrated, Street & Smith) and the USA Today Player of the Year for Tennessee as a senior. He was listed as the No. 1 prospect in Tennessee by the Knoxville News-Sentinel and the Chattanooga Times & Free Press. The East Tennessee Player of the Year, Region Defensive Player of the Year and runner-up for the Mr. Football award, Witten racked up 163 tackles, nine sacks, 27 tackles for loss, eight passes defensed, two interceptions, two blocked kicks, five forced fumbles and three fumble recoveries as a linebacker. He also played tight end, catching 26 passes for 345 yards and 14 touchdowns. A four-year starter at linebacker and tight end, Witten led his team to the state semi-finals three times and earned all-state honors his senior and junior years. He holds the school record for career tackles with 450. During the winter, he averaged 15 points and 12 rebounds-per-game for the basketball team. Witten was an Arts and Sciences major at Tennessee.

[p1_]

Now, how many would have predicted these responses when we drafted Witten 2 years ago. I imagine not many.

I think Witten has surprised us all. And come to think of it, I recall Parcells saying Witten would probablybe his breakout player this year.

I dub thee "Jayson Novawitten".

[Doomsday101]

Now, how many would have predicted these responses when we drafted Witten 2 years ago. I imagine not many.

I think Witten has surprised us all. And come to think of it, I recall Parcells saying Witten would probablybe his breakout player this year.

I dub thee "Jayson Novawitten".

I watched a lot of Witten when he was at Tenn so it did not come as a suprise to me of him having this kind of success. I think it was his Jr. year that he was the leading reciever for the Vols.

[Rack Bauer]

Shockey has six touchdown catches this year, coming from 4, 1, 1, 2, 6 and 2 yards out. Last year, he had two TD catches -- both from 1 yard out (that's the same as Jeff Robinson this year). In 2002, his two TD catches were from 28 yards and 7 yards. For his career, his average TD catch is from a whopping 5.3 yards out, with only one longer than 7 yards.

Witten has five touchdown catches this year, coming from 10, 42, 17, 29 and 24 yards out. Last year, his only TD catch was a 36-yarder. For his career, his average TD catch is from 26.3 yards out, with none shorter than 10 yards.

So, which one is the gamebreaker?


Classic example of why you can't trust stats. Shockey is more of a game breaker cuz he has more of an ability to get YAC. No one said Witten couldn't go long, only that Shockey is more of a deep threat. I don't need stats to see that.

Overall, Witten is a better TE though.

[AdamJT13]

Classic example of why you can't trust stats. Shockey is more of a game breaker cuz he has more of an ability to get YAC. No one said Witten couldn't go long, only that Shockey is more of a deep threat. I don't need stats to see that.
Classic example of why you can't trust your own perception. Witten has a higher YAC than Shockey this season (4.1 to 3.9). Witten has a higher YPC than Shockey (11.4 to 10.9). Witten has more 20-yard catches than Shockey (12 to 10). Witten has more 40-yard catches than Shockey (one to none). And Witten has more first downs than Shockey (39 to 32).

So, if you can "see" that Shockey is more of a deep threat and has more of an ability to get YAC, why does Witten have a higher YAC, higher YPC and more long catches?

[Rack Bauer]

Classic example of why you can't trust your own perception.


That says it all right there. If you need to rely on looking at numbers to form an opinion about a football player then you really do have no football knowledge.


So, if you can "see" that Shockey is more of a deep threat and has more of an ability to get YAC, why does Witten have a higher YAC, higher YPC and more long catches?


Who's the QB throwing him the ball? Kurt "I hold the ball too long" Warner, and rookie Eli Manning.

Vinny isn't great, but he's better then those two guys.


Anyway, we've had this "argument" before. You think stats are the end all, and I know they aren't. Put your calculator down and watch the games every once in a while.

[Fletch]

Witten is a blue collar type TE. He goes out there, busts his a** on every play, and doesn't long for the spotlight. Definitely has sure, soft hands. Runs precise routes, and is becoming one of the better run and pass blockers on the team. Has improved tremendously from his rookie year. Has met the Jay Novacek comparisons.

Shockey is just the opposite. He is a loud, cocky, flashy type guy. One who yearns for the limelight. He seems to wanna be the white, angry version of Terrell Owens. Shockey is streaky. For every touch catch, he drops the easy one. Shockey is not exactly known for having the complete game in my opinion. More of a pass catching TE with speed and power. Has regressed from his impressive rookie year. Has yet to meet the Mark Bavaro comparisons.

The NFL scale definitely tips in favor of Jason Witten.

[Dale]

I think Shockey's playmaking skills are overrated. He has superior athletic ability than Witten, but it doesn't translate on the field as consistently as one would like. The stats Adam posted, along with the rest of Shockey's career stats, prove as much.

The things I like most about Witten is that he's tough as nails and is the ultimate team player. I like energy and enthusiasm, but not when it's used like how Shockey uses it. I'd be utterly embarrassed if our star player was calling opposing coaches "homos."

If you want a true "playmaking" threat at tight end, then look toward Gonzalez or Gates. Shockey isn't in their class in that category, and neither is Witten. Yet Shockey is often viewed as the ultimate playmaking threat at the position, which is why I said he's overrated in that regard.

[Novacek84]

Witten is a no-brainer over Shockey really.

His play was overrated from his nfl debut and local fans gave him a pass 'cause they needed *something* to be excited about as Giants fans. He made headlines for fighting in training camp as a rookie with veterans, dumb comments and acting like a fool, not for doing anything great on the field. He had a few bruising runs and a nice catch over Dawkins maybe but has many drops, including TDs and has been "soft" with nagging injuries.
This guy Shockey has been living off the catch he made in his first preseason game against the Texans in the Hall of Fame Game when he ran that Texan defender over while running down the sideline. He's done nothing since. WITTEN!!

[OLDSCHOOL]

Witten

[Rack Bauer]

The stats Adam posted, along with the rest of Shockey's career stats, prove as much



No, they don't. Stats give suggestions, they don't prove anything.


I swear, it's hard agreeing with someone but arguing their points at the same time.

If those stats prove anything then Algae Crumpler is the best deep threat TE in football.

[OLDSCHOOL]

No, they don't. Stats give suggestions, they don't prove anything.


I swear, it's hard agreeing with someone but arguing their points at the same time.

If those stats prove anything then Algae Crumpler is the best deep threat TE in football.


Whaaaaaaaaaaat!!!! Rack? Is that you talking about stats that way? You use to bombard people with stats, when Carter was here.

[AdamJT13]

That says it all right there. If you need to rely on looking at numbers to form an opinion about a football player then you really do have no football knowledge.
I don't need to rely on numbers to form opinions. I can watch players and form my own opinions. And the facts back up my opinions. You, with all of your supposed "football knowledge," consistently form opinions that are contradicted by the facts. That's why YOU can't trust YOUR own perception -- because it's often contrary to reality. I didn't say I couldn't trust MY perception.


Who's the QB throwing him the ball? Kurt "I hold the ball too long" Warner, and rookie Eli Manning.
So it's their fault he gets fewer YAC? It would seem to me that once he gets the ball, it's up to him after that. It's not their fault he gets tackled.

Vinny isn't great, but he's better then those two guys.
Warner gets sacked too much, but he's still a better passer than Vinny.


Anyway, we've had this "argument" before. You think stats are the end all, and I know they aren't. Put your calculator down and watch the games every once in a while.
Like I've said before, I watch every game and review almost every play on tape. It's not my fault that what you think you see isn't close to reality most of the time.

[p1_]

If you want a true "playmaking" threat at tight end, then look toward Gonzalez or Gates.

Not to change the subject, which is Jay(son) WitteNovacek, but just where in God's name did this Gates fella come from? I had never heard of him until now. And he's a beast, the mofo. Somebody help a brotha out!

[JDSmith]

Not to change the subject, which is Jay(son) WitteNovacek, but just where in God's name did this Gates fella come from? I had never heard of him until now. And he's a beast, the mofo. Somebody help a brotha out!
You never heard of him because he didn't play college football and as a result went undrafted. He was a basketball player, decided he was too short at 6' 4" to play power forward, and held a private workout for NFL teams. The Chargers either drafted him at the end of the draft or signed him as a free agent (I think they went free agent). This is his second year playing TE, he's obviously getting the hang of it.

But Gates plays a lot like Gonzales, which is as a giant WR and not a true TE. They aren't asked to block, they just run routes all day.

[DipChit]

So it's their fault he gets fewer YAC? It would seem to me that once he gets the ball, it's up to him after that. It's not their fault he gets tackled.



I know you're not really suggesting that nothing a QB does has anything to do with YAC. How could it not? If a QB is a tick or 2 slow getting the ball to a receiver it can have an effect on YAC. Or how about when you have a QB that isnt exactly known for his pin-point accuracy? If he "continually" makes receivers stop, twist, leap or whatever as opposed to hitting them between the numbers without making them break stride, it stands to reason that his receivers will have lesser YAC numbers.

Not saying that has anything necessarily to do with these 2 particular guys.. but just in general.

[Rack Bauer]

Whaaaaaaaaaaat!!!! Rack? Is that you talking about stats that way? You use to bombard people with stats, when Carter was here.


I never "bombarded" anyone with stats. And I didn't say they are useless. Just that they aren't reliable.

Alge Crumpler averages 16+ yards per catch. I guess he's a deep threat now?


And the facts back up my opinions.


What facts? STats do not equal "Facts". Mmmkay?



So it's their fault he gets fewer YAC? It would seem to me that once he gets the ball, it's up to him after that. It's not their fault he gets tackled.


This right here is proof of your lack of knowledge of the game. And I didn't need a calculator to figure it out.


Warner gets sacked too much, but he's still a better passer than Vinny.


Under ideal circumstances, yes. But that OL in Giant land will effect any QBs accuracy.


Like I've said before, I watch every game and review almost every play on tape. It's not my fault that what you think you see isn't close to reality most of the time.


When watching the game, try to pay attention to the players, not the yardlines.

And it's obvious to ANYONE with no bias and two working eyeballs that Shockey is more dangerous with the ball in his hands then Witten.

Again, overall Witten is the better player. But Shockey is more dangerous after the catch. I don't need stats to tell me that. I can see it for myself.


But Gates plays a lot like Gonzales, which is as a giant WR and not a true TE. They aren't asked to block, they just run routes all day.


Actually I think Gonzo is a pretty decent blocker. Even Witten complimented him on his blocking (read it in an article a few weeks ago).


I know you're not really suggesting that nothing a QB does has anything to do with YAC. How could it not? If a QB is a tick or 2 slow getting the ball to a receiver it can have an effect on YAC. Or how about when you have a QB that isnt exactly known for his pin-point accuracy? If he "continually" makes receivers stop, twist, leap or whatever as opposed to hitting them between the numbers without making them break stride, it stands to reason that his receivers will have lesser YAC numbers.


You'll have to retype this in binary code or put in some statistical "evidence" in order for Adam to understand it.

[JDSmith]

Actually I think Gonzo is a pretty decent blocker. Even Witten complimented him on his blocking (read it in an article a few weeks ago).

I heard that Gonzalez was a pretty good blocker as well, I just don't think he's asked to do it often. 9 times out of 10 they probably want him out running routes. I haven't watched them a lot, so it's possible that he blocks more than I believe. I have watched Witten though, and he's asked to block a lot. He blocks from both the TE position and in the backfield on running plays, and I see him blocking sometimes on passing plays as well (like Morgan's big catch against the Pack). So while Gonzo may be a pretty good blocker, I doubt he's blocking as much as Witten is.

[Chuck 54]

I think Witten has made huge strides this year. He's had the better season than Shockey, and has made moves to surpass him. Y'all?
I like Witten, but I'd trade him for Shockey in a heartbeat...especially since Campbell will return to his blocking duties...I'll take the better athlete and see how he does in our system.

[SuspectCorner]

i'm super happy with witten. i see nothing but upside with this kid. he is every bit the TE shockey is. even more, IMO. but let's say, for arguments sake, they are evenly talented. i'd take the less boisterous witten any day. he just smacks of a well-grounded and mature young man. can't say THAT about shockey.

[Trag3344]

witten is better than shockey.

[AdamJT13]

[QUOTE=DipChit]I know you're not really suggesting that nothing a QB does has anything to do with YAC. How could it not? If a QB is a tick or 2 slow getting the ball to a receiver it can have an effect on YAC. Or how about when you have a QB that isnt exactly known for his pin-point accuracy? If he "continually" makes receivers stop, twist, leap or whatever as opposed to hitting them between the numbers without making them break stride, it stands to reason that his receivers will have lesser YAC numbers.[quote]

I'd say that the net effect of poorly thrown passes on a single player's YAC over the course of a season (or 15 games, so far) is very small. (Somehow, the Giants' wide receivers have managed to attain a higher YAC with their hideous quarterbacks than our wide receivers have with Testaverde's pinpoint passes, but Shockey hasn't been able to do the same compared to Witten.) A difference in offensive schemes and pass routes would account for a greater difference in YAC.

[Dale]

I think Shockey's actually at his best when one-on-one with a player and when allowed to go up and beat him to the ball. He has strong hands and is great at timing his leaps against smaller defenders. He's a great goal line threat in this regard -- *gulp* -- as evidenced by all his short touchdowns. When all else fails for the Giants, they always have the option of just tossing it up to Shockey near the goal line and taking the chance he comes down with it.

But as a pure game-breaking threat, or a guy with tremendous playmaking ability, I stand by my stance that Shockey is overrated. Shockey's athletic, no doubt, but I have yet to see it consistently translate to the field.

[Dale]

I like Witten, but I'd trade him for Shockey in a heartbeat...especially since Campbell will return to his blocking duties...I'll take the better athlete and see how he does in our system.

Not to be a homer, but I'd take Witten for the following reasons:

1) He's younger (a little more than two years younger, to be precise)
2) He's much cheaper
3) His production is currently better (you could even make a strong argument Shockey has never had as good a year as Witten is having this season)

Shockey brings much more hype and marketability, but that's not what we need.

[Rack Bauer]

I stand by my stance that Shockey is overrated. Shockey's athletic, no doubt, but I have yet to see it consistently translate to the field.


I agree he's overrated. But he's still more of a game breaker then Witten. He's more dangerous after the catch the Witten. But overall, Witten is superior. He's got a better attitude, he's tougher, he can block, and he's just as good at getting open. I'll take that over a guy that can make a big play every once in a while.

Shockey is the TE version of Antonio Bryant.


Not to be a homer, but I'd take Witten for the following reasons:

1) He's younger (a little more than two years younger, to be precise)
2) He's much cheaper
3) His production is currently better (you could even make a strong argument Shockey has never had as good a year as Witten is having this season)

4) He's a better blocker
5) He's tougher. Willing to play through pain. Something the Homo doesn't do.
6) Doesn't drop as many passes.

[AdamJT13]

What facts? STats do not equal "Facts".
When something happens, it becomes a fact. Statistics are merely numerical representations of facts. For example, when Jason Witten catches a 42-yard touchdown pass, it becomes a fact. And that fact is represented on the stat sheet by him being credited with a catch for 42 yards and a touchdown -- the same way he gets credited for all of his other long catches and long touchdowns. The FACTS are that Witten has made many more of those types of catches than Shockey has, averages more yards per catch than Shockey does and averages more YAC than Shockey does (and drops less than one-third as many passes as Shockey, to boot). All of those things are facts because they actually happened. If you don't believe it, watch the game tapes again. The evidence is all there, on the tapes and on the stat sheets. They don't ever contradict each other.

And it's obvious to ANYONE with no bias and two working eyeballs that Shockey is more dangerous with the ball in his hands then Witten.
If you want to say Shockey is more "dangerous" -- as in he MIGHT do something that Witten couldn't -- then go ahead. Maybe he's more of a deep "threat," too -- as in he MIGHT get open on a deep pass. Since he's faster and more athletic than Witten, those might be true. But so far, that "dangerous threat" that he supposedly represents has NOT translated to more big plays or more YAC on the field. Where are all of his big plays? Where are the long touchdowns? Where are the YAC? Witten, on the other hand, has been better after the catch and a better deep threat ON THE FIELD. If you need to see it "with your own two eyes," go back and watch the games again.

I hope for the good of society that you never serve on a jury. A prosecutor could present irrefutable evidence of guilt and you'd still vote not guilty because "he looks innocent to me."

[Dale]

If you want to say Shockey is more "dangerous" -- as in he MIGHT do something that Witten couldn't -- then go ahead. Maybe he's more of a deep "threat," too -- as in he MIGHT get open on a deep pass. Since he's faster and more athletic than Witten, those might be true. But so far, that "dangerous threat" that he supposedly represents has NOT translated to more big plays or more YAC on the field. Where are all of his big plays? Where are the long touchdowns? Where are the YAC? Witten, on the other hand, has been better after the catch and a better deep threat ON THE FIELD. If you need to see it "with your own two eyes," go back and watch the games again.

I think this summarizes Shockey very nicely. The ability is there to be make a big play at any time, yet somehow, he just rarely makes such plays.

It's a lot like all those deep-threat receivers who never seem to get open downfield.

[Rack Bauer]

Statistics are merely numerical representations of facts.


If you say that X player averages 4.2 yards after the Catch then yes, that's stat. When you say that player Y, who averages 3.9 yards after the catch, is less of a playmaker then player X then NO, it is not a fact. There are other variable that come into play.


Again, for like the 2 thousandth time, not everything about football can be calculated using a TI85. Sometimes you just have to watch and learn w/o thinking of numbers.


I hope for the good of society that you never serve on a jury. A prosecutor could present irrefutable evidence of guilt and you'd still vote not guilty because "he looks innocent to me."


Settle down, drama queen. No need to start with that kind of crap posting.


You know darn well what I'm talking about (I hope you have enough common sense to figure THAT out).

How much YAC does Alga Crumpler average? How many yards per catch does he average?

Would you say he's a better deep threat then Jason Witten, Jeremy Shockey, Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez? Just because his YPC is higher (and considerably higher) doesn't mean he's better and getting open deep.

Like I said, there's other variable at stake (sp?) here.

ANd about the Giants WRs averaging more YAC then our WRs... ummm yeah? Since when has Keyshawn ever been a big YAC type of player? Morgan? He sucks. Glenn? Better, but still not a big YAC type of player. And don't you think defenses are a little more worried about Shockey then they are Witten? Don't you think they game plan to stop him? Witten is just now getting to that point where defenses are aware of where he's at.


Anyway, I have no way to get through to you on this. You're just too obsessed with numbers. If player X averages more yards per catch then player Y then he MUST be better after the catch then player Y.

What's the point in watching the games if the stats will tell you everything?

Do me a favor. Don't watch the Giants game, and don't read any posts about the game after it's over. Just read the stat line and tell me what you think about the game. I guarantee it'll be a lot different, as a whole, then what you think it was from reading the stats.

[Rack Bauer]

I think this summarizes Shockey very nicely. The ability is there to be make a big play at any time, yet somehow, he just rarely makes such plays.

It's a lot like all those deep-threat receivers who never seem to get open downfield.



That's a good example. Take Randall Williams for example. Earlier in the year he played (forgot against who) and the CB was already playing way off of him. Eventhough he's extremely fast, the defense knew how to defend him to counter his greatest asset, his speed.

I'm sure the same thing happens with Shockey and his greatest asset. But in doing so, defenses get hurt in other areas cuz they're concentrating on Shockey (just a theoretic example).

There's just too many variable. How well could Warner of been able to throw the ball behind that sorry OL? He was the most sacked QB in the league when he was benched. That's not a recipe for accurate passing.


I don't even like Shockey, but I know a dangerous player when I see one. He's inconsistent, but can make plays, and he has made plays. I think his worst enemy is his own emotions. He lets them get to him and it ruins his game IMO. Not that I mind. As long as he plays for an NFC East rival I hope he stays a hot head and inconsistent.

[Woods]

I think Shockey may have more "potential" than Witten, but "potential" doesn't mean much, IMO.

All I care about is production on the field.

Witten has been more productive than Shockey this year, almost any way you cut it.

Also, I think Witten is the better TE because he also is an able and willing blocker.

IF Witten continues to improve (as he's done the previous two years), he's certainly going to be one of the top 2-3 TEs in the game.

[Rack Bauer]

Just wanted to add...


Ike Hilliard averages a whopping 9.0 yards per catch. Yep, that's better then our WRs alright.


And Amani Toomer averages 14.6 yards per catch. Good, but that's a full two yards less then he averaged last year.


I think that's proof enough (if you want to go by stats) that the QB play hasn't been very good in NY this year.

Warner's QB rating is better then Collins' was last year, but Collins throws deep a lot more often then Warner (too often if you ask me). Still, the WRs haen't been as productive this year as they were last year.

[TwoDeep3]

Originally Posted by Rack

What facts? STats do not equal "Facts".

No commentary neccessary. This says it all.

[Sarge]

No commentary neccessary. This says it all.


Exactly...

[Doomsday101]

This is only Witten second season in the NFL and his numbers this season are better than any season that Shockey has had in the NFL and with 1 game remaining Witten will add to that. I'm not into the overrated arguments, I think Shockey is a good player but he has not put up the numbers Witten has and with Wittens work ethic he will only get better barring major injury of course.

[TLW47]

Right now Witten is the better player. :jints:

[Chuck 54]

Not to be a homer, but I'd take Witten for the following reasons:

1) He's younger (a little more than two years younger, to be precise)
2) He's much cheaper
3) His production is currently better (you could even make a strong argument Shockey has never had as good a year as Witten is having this season)

Shockey brings much more hype and marketability, but that's not what we need.
I respect your opinion, Dale, because you present it without attacking anyone else's right to have one, which some of the children don't do...however, I'd still trade witten in a heartbeat for Shockey...Shockey had a huge rookie year and a probowl, then suffered 1 season of injury (can happen to anyone) and this year has suffered as have all Giants...lol.

I think he's the best receiving TE in the NFC...no stats, just my eyes...witten is good, but his penalties kill drives and while he runs good patterns and catches the ball, I have not seen him run over or make miss a single tackler this year...he goes down on the first contact every time...he's young, so he may develop some wiggle and actually make a guy miss or run over him in time.

I've always liked Shockey, and I think we'll have an answer definitively on which TE is better in the next 3-4 years.

I think it's hard to compare these guys with just stats because NY actually has WR's who are weapons to throw to...lol.

Unlike those who love Novachek, I don't think he deserves to be in the HOF...while he was the perfect TE mate to Aikman, he was not a great TE overall.

Imagine if he'd been on one of Parcells' teams....unless it was in his last few years after proving himself as a receiver, I doubt Parcells would even want him due to his size and lack of blocking....it's all in the eye of the beholder and the offense you want to plug a guy into.

[JDSmith]

I respect your opinion, Dale, because you present it without attacking anyone else's right to have one, which some of the children don't do...however, I'd still trade witten in a heartbeat for Shockey...Shockey had a huge rookie year and a probowl, then suffered 1 season of injury (can happen to anyone) and this year has suffered as have all Giants...lol.

I think he's the best receiving TE in the NFC...no stats, just my eyes...witten is good, but his penalties kill drives and while he runs good patterns and catches the ball, I have not seen him run over or make miss a single tackler this year...he goes down on the first contact every time...he's young, so he may develop some wiggle and actually make a guy miss or run over him in time.

I've always liked Shockey, and I think we'll have an answer definitively on which TE is better in the next 3-4 years.

I think it's hard to compare these guys with just stats because NY actually has WR's who are weapons to throw to...lol.

Unlike those who love Novachek, I don't think he deserves to be in the HOF...while he was the perfect TE mate to Aikman, he was not a great TE overall.

Imagine if he'd been on one of Parcells' teams....unless it was in his last few years after proving himself as a receiver, I doubt Parcells would even want him due to his size and lack of blocking....it's all in the eye of the beholder and the offense you want to plug a guy into.
I couldn't disagree more. Shockey just isn't the player that a lot of people think he should be based on his athletic ability. He's got great potential, but he's not a great TE. He has 7 drops this season, and he's been thrown to 97 times. Dropping the ball 7% of the time is not good for someone who's supposed to have good hands. Witten has 3 or less drops this season and he's been thrown to 110 times. Witten also finds soft spots in the seems and exploits them for easy catches - nothing fancy, but very effective. Witten blocks on both running and passing plays, from his usual TE spot as well as from the backfield. He runs routes from both places as well. Witten is simply a better TE than Shockey is. Shockey is a better athlete, but I am not interested in winning the NFL decathalon, I want actual football players. Witten is the better football player. In Shockey's rookie year (where he put up lesser numbers than Witten is this year) he wasn't remotely a TE. He was never asked to block and he was basically a giant WR. As a result he put up numbers that were very good for a TE, but were they great numbers for a WR? Because that's how Shockey was being played by the coaching staff. No, they weren't great numbers for a WR. And now that he's being asked to play as an actual TE and go in motion, block on both running and passing plays, and catch the ball, he's not doing NEARLY as well. Witten does it all, and does it all better than Shockey.

[Rack Bauer]

Exactly...


So your trying to say that stats are the end all? Stats don't lie?


If so, then THAT says it all.


I think he's the best receiving TE in the NFC...no stats, just my eyes


Sorry but if the stats say otherwise then you must be wrong


That said, I wouldn't trade Witten for Shockey. Witten is just as good of a reciver as Shockey IMO, it's only after the catch where shockey has the advantage. Plus Witten is tougher, has a better attitude, and is a much better blocker.


JMO


Shockey is a better athlete, but I am not interested in winning the NFL decathalon


I agree with this. Witten is a hardnosed football player. A throwback. Shockey is a prima donna. You can't play the TE position and be a prima donna at the same time.

[Sarge]

So your trying to say that stats are the end all? Stats don't lie?
If so, then THAT says it all. .

Perhaps you could point out just whre I stated stats are "the end all?"

Stats are factual - period. To suggest they are not, is absurd.

I was simply agreeing w/TwoDeep. His post was spot on (and amusing).

[Derinyar]

Witten is a better player than Shockey. With their respective time in league and in position, this says alot. Shockey has always been a TE. Witten is now finishing his 4th year at the position. If your talking about pure ability to make a big play, Shockey is probably superior, however his head and hands get in the way too often. If your talking about all around TE play, its not close.

I also don't really buy the argument that defenses don't look for Witten now. I think they do, because beside Keyshawn hes the only decent pass catcher we have. Witten seems to run good routes, makes his breaks at the right time, and also seems to know where the marker is. I think hes learning that sometimes fighting for 2 yards isn't as important as making sure you keep the ball, the only time that 2 yards is important is when its 3rd and you need them to get the 1st.

[Sarge]

Witten is a better player than Shockey. With their respective time in league and in position, this says alot. Shockey has always been a TE. Witten is now finishing his 4th year at the position. If your talking about pure ability to make a big play, Shockey is probably superior, however his head and hands get in the way too often. If your talking about all around TE play, its not close.

I also don't really buy the argument that defenses don't look for Witten now. I think they do, because beside Keyshawn hes the only decent pass catcher we have. Witten seems to run good routes, makes his breaks at the right time, and also seems to know where the marker is. I think hes learning that sometimes fighting for 2 yards isn't as important as making sure you keep the ball, the only time that 2 yards is important is when its 3rd and you need them to get the 1st.

Nice post.

[junk]

Witten is a better player than Shockey. With their respective time in league and in position, this says alot. Shockey has always been a TE. Witten is now finishing his 4th year at the position. If your talking about pure ability to make a big play, Shockey is probably superior, however his head and hands get in the way too often. If your talking about all around TE play, its not close.

I also don't really buy the argument that defenses don't look for Witten now. I think they do, because beside Keyshawn hes the only decent pass catcher we have. Witten seems to run good routes, makes his breaks at the right time, and also seems to know where the marker is. I think hes learning that sometimes fighting for 2 yards isn't as important as making sure you keep the ball, the only time that 2 yards is important is when its 3rd and you need them to get the 1st.

Not to defend Shockey or anything since I think he is one of the most overrated players in the game, but I think he played WR fairly early in his college career before switching to TE. Not as extreme as flipping from DE or whatever Witten started out as, but I still don't believe he has always been a TE.

[AdamJT13]

If you say that X player averages 4.2 yards after the Catch then yes, that's stat. When you say that player Y, who averages 3.9 yards after the catch, is less of a playmaker then player X then NO, it is not a fact.
You're confusing facts and opinions again. Remember, a fact is something that happens, and it always is true. An opinion is a judgement and can be right or wrong. The facts would be that player X averages 4.2 YAC and player Y averages 3.9 YAC. Your opinion would be that player Y is a better playmaker. Of course, if player Y makes fewer big plays, that would be wrong, but it still would be your opinion. (Although you could always say he might be a bigger "threat" to be a playmaker.)


How much YAC does Alga Crumpler average? How many yards per catch does he average?

Would you say he's a better deep threat then Jason Witten, Jeremy Shockey, Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez? Just because his YPC is higher (and considerably higher) doesn't mean he's better and getting open deep.
If you want to keep playing around with unsubstantiated labels, you can call anyone you wish a "better deep threat." But if we're talking about things that actually happen on the field, then Alge Crumpler is one of the best at making big plays (and of those five, Shockey is the worst). Despite having BY FAR the fewest pass thrown his way (out of those five), Crumpler has the most catches for 20 yards or more and the most catches for 40 yards or more and is the only one to catch a pass that was thrown more than 31 yards down the field. He also has the highest YPC and the highest YAC.

Is Crumpler "better and (sic) getting open deep" than someone like Gonzalez? Probably not, since Crumpler's high YPC is due more to catching mid-range (10- to 20-yard) passes and turning them into 20-yard-plus gains. (Hence his very high 6.1 YAC.) Gonzalez gets more of his catches 20 yards or more downfield, but he's not as adept at stretching shorter passes into longer catches. Crumpler undoubtedly is a big-play tight end, which is why he'll probably be starting in the Pro Bowl for the second consecutive season.


ANd about the Giants WRs averaging more YAC then our WRs... ummm yeah? Since when has Keyshawn ever been a big YAC type of player?
Since when has Amani Toomer?

Morgan? He s----. Glenn? Better, but still not a big YAC type of player.
Both of them had high YACs before coming to Dallas. Shouldn't they have benefitted from Testaverde's pinpoint passes the way Witten has to inflate his YAC, according to you?


And don't you think defenses are a little more worried about Shockey then they are Witten? Don't you think they game plan to stop him?
So is that your excuse for Shockey now? Funny how other tight ends are able to make plays even when defenses focus on stopping them, but "Deep Threat" Shockey isn't. He just keeps dropping passes left and right. (No, wait, I forgot, that's the quarterback's fault, too.)


Witten is just now getting to that point where defenses are aware of where he's at.
Except that his YPC and YAC have been higher in the second half of the season than in the first half of the season.



If player X averages more yards per catch then player Y then he MUST be better after the catch then player Y.
It's always funny watching you try to cite statistics but trip all over yourself. More yards per catch means he's better after the catch? Um, OK.



Do me a favor. Don't watch the Giants game, and don't read any posts about the game after it's over. Just read the stat line and tell me what you think about the game. I guarantee it'll be a lot different, as a whole, then what you think it was from reading the stats.
You don't get it, do you? I watch and re-watch every game, and usually every play (often several times). That way, I know exactly what happens (the facts) and know how the stats (the numerical representation of the facts) relate to the facts. When I form an opinion that is different from yours, I can use the facts and the stats to show you why you're wrong. But since your opinions often have no basis in fact, all you can resort to in an argument is your lame "football knowledge" ploy

[Doomsday101]

Witten went to Tenn as a LB and was moved to TE, it is easy to see the LB mentality in his play at TE

[Sarge]

You're confusing facts and opinions again. Remember, a fact is something that happens, and it always is true. An opinion is a judgement and can be right or wrong. The facts would be that player X averages 4.2 YAC and player Y averages 3.9 YAC. Your opinion would be that player Y is a better playmaker. Of course, if player Y makes fewer big plays, that would be wrong, but it still would be your opinion. (Although you could always say he might be a bigger "threat" to be a playmaker.)



If you want to keep playing around with unsubstantiated labels, you can call anyone you wish a "better deep threat." But if we're talking about things that actually happen on the field, then Alge Crumpler is one of the best at making big plays (and of those five, Shockey is the worst). Despite having BY FAR the fewest pass thrown his way (out of those five), Crumpler has the most catches for 20 yards or more and the most catches for 40 yards or more and is the only one to catch a pass that was thrown more than 31 yards down the field. He also has the highest YPC and the highest YAC.

Is Crumpler "better and (sic) getting open deep" than someone like Gonzalez? Probably not, since Crumpler's high YPC is due more to catching mid-range (10- to 20-yard) passes and turning them into 20-yard-plus gains. (Hence his very high 6.1 YAC.) Gonzalez gets more of his catches 20 yards or more downfield, but he's not as adept at stretching shorter passes into longer catches. Crumpler undoubtedly is a big-play tight end, which is why he'll probably be starting in the Pro Bowl for the second consecutive season.



Since when has Amani Toomer?


Both of them had high YACs before coming to Dallas. Shouldn't they have benefitted from Testaverde's pinpoint passes the way Witten has to inflate his YAC, according to you?



So is that your excuse for Shockey now? Funny how other tight ends are able to make plays even when defenses focus on stopping them, but "Deep Threat" Shockey isn't. He just keeps dropping passes left and right. (No, wait, I forgot, that's the quarterback's fault, too.)



Except that his YPC and YAC have been higher in the second half of the season than in the first half of the season.




It's always funny watching you try to cite statistics but trip all over yourself. More yards per catch means he's better after the catch? Um, OK.




You don't get it, do you? I watch and re-watch every game, and usually every play (often several times). That way, I know exactly what happens (the facts) and know how the stats (the numerical representation of the facts) relate to the facts. When I form an opinion that is different from yours, I can use the facts and the stats to show you why you're wrong. But since your opinions often have no basis in fact, all you can resort to in an argument is your lame "football knowledge" ploy

Awesome post Adam. Right on the $.

[Rack Bauer]

Perhaps you could point out just whre I stated stats are "the end all?"

Stats are factual - period. To suggest they are not, is absurd.

I was simply agreeing w/TwoDeep. His post was spot on (and amusing).


Go back and read the whole thread before you talk about stats. I don't feel like reposting the same thing twice in the same friggin' thread.


If you want to keep playing around with unsubstantiated labels, you can call anyone you wish a "better deep threat." But if we're talking about things that actually happen on the field, then Alge Crumpler is one of the best at making big plays (and of those five, Shockey is the worst).


You still aren't getting it. You can't get your eyes off the stat line and see things for what they are. Crumpler makes big plays cuz of Michael Vick. Period. The QB is the key here, just like it is with Shockey and Witten.

But I guess since that's not stat, it's not a fact. :rolleyes:



Since when has Amani Toomer?


You don't watch much football, do you Adam?


Shouldn't they have benefitted from Testaverde's pinpoint passes


You been hanging out with BlindZebra? Quit with the spindoctoring, Adam. I never said Testaverde threw pinpoint passes. Grow up.


So is that your excuse for Shockey now?


Excuse? What, cuz I didn't type it in numerical form it can't be a fact?



Except that his YPC and YAC have been higher in the second half of the season than in the first half of the season.



This has NOTHING to do with what you quoted. Nothing at all.

Oh I forgot, your the number boy. You have to relate something to some type of number. You assumed I meant defenses were just starting to acct for Witten in the "Second half" of the season, but the FACT is I never stated that. I said Witten is JUST NOW getting to where defenses have to acct for him. JUST NOW, not IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE SEASON.And I never said that meant he'll never catch a long pass again for the rest of his career. :rolleyes:



It's always funny watching you try to cite statistics but trip all over yourself. More yards per catch means he's better after the catch? Um, OK.


I didn't trip over anything, Adam.

I swear, I've never known anyone so blind as you. You equate everything to statistical evidence, but it's a FACT that stats lie. You can dress stats up any way you like it to support any argument. My College Algebra Professor, who was a military statitician for the marines, explained it to me.

You want a fact? Stats lie.

"There are lies, d*mn lies, and stats" - Mark Twain


You don't get it, do you? I watch and re-watch every game

No your the one not getting it. What's the point of you "watching and rewatching every game" if you don't know your looking at?


When I form an opinion that is different from yours, I can use the facts and the stats to show you why you're wrong


No, you can't. And you have NEVER done so. You've used stats to support your OPINION. That's it. But, again, stats don't tell the whole story.

If you tell me that player X averages 2.3 YAC, then yes that is a fact. But it doesn't mean he's better after the catch then player Y that averages 2.2 YAC.

Sorry if you just can't get that through your head.


all you can resort to in an argument is your lame "football knowledge" ploy

Straight up football knowledge is a lot better then just resorting to numbers everytime and referring to them as "Facts".



Awesome post Adam. Right on the $.


No, it really wasn't.

[Sarge]

Go back and read the whole thread before you talk about stats. I don't feel like reposting the same thing twice in the same friggin' thread.





You still aren't getting it. You can't get your eyes off the stat line and see things for what they are. Crumpler makes big plays cuz of Michael Vick. Period. The QB is the key here, just like it is with Shockey and Witten.

But I guess since that's not stat, it's not a fact. :rolleyes:






You don't watch much football, do you Adam?





You been hanging out with BlindZebra? Quit with the spindoctoring, Adam. I never said Testaverde threw pinpoint passes. Grow up.





Excuse? What, cuz I didn't type it in numerical form it can't be a fact?







This has NOTHING to do with what you quoted. Nothing at all.

Oh I forgot, your the number boy. You have to relate something to some type of number. You assumed I meant defenses were just starting to acct for Witten in the "Second half" of the season, but the FACT is I never stated that. I said Witten is JUST NOW getting to where defenses have to acct for him. JUST NOW, not IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE SEASON.And I never said that meant he'll never catch a long pass again for the rest of his career. :rolleyes:






I didn't trip over anything, Adam.

I swear, I've never known anyone so blind as you. You equate everything to statistical evidence, but it's a FACT that stats lie. You can dress stats up any way you like it to support any argument. My College Algebra Professor, who was a military statitician for the marines, explained it to me.

You want a fact? Stats lie.

"There are lies, d*mn lies, and stats" - Mark Twain




No your the one not getting it. What's the point of you "watching and rewatching every game" if you don't know your looking at?





No, you can't. And you have NEVER done so. You've used stats to support your OPINION. That's it. But, again, stats don't tell the whole story.

If you tell me that player X averages 2.3 YAC, then yes that is a fact. But it doesn't mean he's better after the catch then player Y that averages 2.2 YAC.

Sorry if you just can't get that through your head.




Straight up football knowledge is a lot better then just resorting to numbers everytime and referring to them as "Facts".






No, it really wasn't.



http://www.websmileys.com/sm/animal/1132.gif

[AdamJT13]

Crumpler makes big plays cuz of Michael Vick. Period. That's hilarious. And last year, I suppose it was all because of Doug Johnson and Kurt Kittner? ... Period?


But I guess since that's not stat, it's not a fact. For something to be a fact, it has to be true -- not a figment of your imagination.



You don't watch much football, do you Adam? Much more than you, obviously.


You assumed I meant defenses were just starting to acct for Witten in the "Second half" of the season, but the FACT is I never stated that. I said Witten is JUST NOW getting to where defenses have to acct for him. JUST NOW, not IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE SEASON. So just NOW -- as in 15 games into the season, defenses have FINALLY started to realize that Witten has been tearing apart defenses for most of the year? I guess they didn't notice when he secretly led all NFL tight ends in catches and yards in the preseason, then had six catches for 82 yards in Game 2, eight catches for 112 in Game 6, nine catches for 84 in Game 7, six for 97 in Game 8 or nine for 133 in Game 9? It wasn't until just NOW that they started to account for him? Um, OK. But only in your alternate reality.



You want a fact? Stats lie.

"There are lies, d--- lies, and stats" - Mark Twain Stats are factual and cannot lie. The only lies are misinterpretations of statistics.

For example, Emmitt Smith has the most rushing yards in NFL history. That is a fact and is invariably true. But if I interpret that to mean that Emmitt Smith is the best running back in NFL history, that's not necessarily true, that's an opinion. If you say Troy Hambrick has the most rushing yards in NFL history, that's neither a fact nor an opinion, it's simply a lie.

Likewise, if I say Jason Witten makes more big plays than Jeremy Shockey, that's a fact. If you say Jeremy Shockey makes more big plays than Jason Witten, that's not a fact. It's not even an opinion. It's simply incorrect. Now, if you say that Shockey is "better at making big plays" or "a bigger threat to make big plays," that is an opinion, but it's not one that can be supported by any facts.


No, it really wasn't. You keep forgetting that nobody else lives in your alternate reality.

[SALADIN]

Not to defend Shockey or anything since I think he is one of the most overrated players in the game, but I think he played WR fairly early in his college career before switching to TE. Not as extreme as flipping from DE or whatever Witten started out as, but I still don't believe he has always been a TE.

Are you sure he played WR? Shockey was one of the most touted TE in the nation.

He may have been split out many time at Miami I don't think they ever considered him a WR.

I could be wrong but I would appreciate the facts you have to back up your claim.

[AdamJT13]

Are you sure he played WR? Shockey was one of the most touted TE in the nation.

He may have been split out many time at Miami I don't think they ever considered him a WR.
Shockey was a wide receiver in high school, but he has been a tight end since his freshman year in junior college. He sometimes was moved around -- split wide, in the backfield, etc. -- but he was always considered a tight end in junior college and at Miami.

I could be wrong but I would appreciate the facts you have to back up your claim.
Interesting concept.

[2233boys]

Whitten is more of a complete football player.......he is tougher.

But Shockey has more speed...is more powerfull after the catch and IMHO is more of a game breaker then Witten.

We can't assume Witten is better because he is a pro-bowler....Shockey is in a new system....with a rookie QB......and isn't a focal point in the Giants offence this year.....that will change.

I like Witten better because he cost less and we didn't fork out a first round pick for him.


Witten is better because he is an all around TE he can block and catch, and is somewhat of a go to guy. Witten is quick, runs good routes, and makes plays after the catch. No assuming Witten is better because of the pro bowl vote, the pro bowl is a joke, I am looking at production on the field, and survey says the TE with almost 1000 yrds rec from Dallas is the better TE... :jints:

[junk]

Shockey was a wide receiver in high school, but he has been a tight end since his freshman year in junior college. He sometimes was moved around -- split wide, in the backfield, etc. -- but he was always considered a tight end in junior college and at Miami.


Interesting concept.

Yep, I was wrong. He got converted to TE at his first practice in junior college. I thought some announcers had mentioned he played WR and thought it was at his JUCO, not just high school.

Anyway, I usually back up the bulk of my posts with facts, but thanks for the snide comment anyway. I thought the part where I said "I think" would have eliminated me as stating it as fact.

[AdamJT13]

Anyway, I usually back up the bulk of my posts with facts, but thanks for the snide comment anyway. Just to be clear, my snide comment had nothing to do with you (I wasn't responding to your post). Sorry if you thought it was directed at you.

[p1_]

Adam,

where are YAC stats available online, if at all?

[JDSmith]

Are you sure he played WR? Shockey was one of the most touted TE in the nation.

He may have been split out many time at Miami I don't think they ever considered him a WR.

I could be wrong but I would appreciate the facts you have to back up your claim.
What's the difference? Most of his success came when they played him exactly like a WR anyway. He was in the slot, he was out wide, he never blocked and all he did was run routes - sounds like a WR to me. Now he's being forced to play like a TE and it's not as easy.

[JDSmith]

Adam,

where are YAC stats available online, if at all?
I think they have a full listing on stats inc, but I don't know how to access it. I only know where to find the leaders in the league. So I can tell you that Witten has 320 yac yards on the season. I can't tell you what Shockey has because he didn't make the top 20 for the NFC - which means he has less than 295.

[p1_]

I think they have a full listing on stats inc, but I don't know how to access it. I only know where to find the leaders in the league. So I can tell you that Witten has 320 yac yards on the season. I can't tell you what Shockey has because he didn't make the top 20 for the NFC - which means he has less than 295.

what does that say about Shockey? Pretty incriminating data/facts/numbers/truths to be sure.

nfl.com for the league leaders in YAC?

[JDSmith]

what does that say about Shockey? Pretty incriminating data/facts/numbers/truths to be sure.

nfl.com for the league leaders in YAC?
I get most of my stats from Stats Inc (http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/index.asp), they have a pretty comprehensive breakdown of a lot of different categories. They count drops, catch percentage, number of times thrown to, and about a million other things. I don't know if NFL.com actually has a listing for YAC anywhere on their stats pages. I think Adam has even more in depth sources, because I noticed that he had access to Shockey's YAC yardage, so he either got it from a different site or he knows his way around stats inc better than me to find it.

[junk]

Just to be clear, my snide comment had nothing to do with you (I wasn't responding to your post). Sorry if you thought it was directed at you.

No problem, I probably overreacted a bit myself.

[Sarge]

what does that say about Shockey? Pretty incriminating data/facts/numbers/truths to be sure.

nfl.com for the league leaders in YAC?

It says nothing because stats aren't facts.

;) and :rolleyes:

[AdamJT13]

The player profiles at Yahoo and CNNSI have YAC stats.

[SALADIN]

What's the difference? Most of his success came when they played him exactly like a WR anyway. He was in the slot, he was out wide, he never blocked and all he did was run routes - sounds like a WR to me. Now he's being forced to play like a TE and it's not as easy.

Just like I thought, he wasn't a WR.

:jerk:

[Grevus]

I think Witten has made huge strides this year. He's had the better season than Shockey, and has made moves to surpass him. Y'all?


Shockey who? Did he play this year?

[TwoDeep3]

Stats are historical facts.

Any commentary which suggests they are not facts is misguided or twisting truth to fit one's agenda.

Stats do not tell the entire story.

But to suggest they are not facts is baloney.

[Dale]

Stats are historical facts.

Any commentary which suggests they are not facts is misguided or twisting truth to fit one's agenda.

Stats do not tell the entire story.

But to suggest they are not facts is baloney.

And where are your stats to back up these opinion-based claims, mister? :D

[Rack Bauer]

That's hilarious. And last year, I suppose it was all because of Doug Johnson and Kurt Kittner? ... Period?

From 12.5 yard per catch in 2003 to 16.1 in 2004. Your the stat boy but you want to ignore this?


I thought the part where I said "I think" would have eliminated me as stating it as fact.

If there's no numbers involved it can't be a fact.


It says nothing because stats aren't facts.


I said stats don't always tell the truth, a**hole.


Any commentary which suggests they are not facts is misguided or twisting truth to fit one's agenda.

Stats do not tell the entire story.




That's what I've been saying this whole thread.

I pointed out (I thought it was obvious) that if player X averages 3.9 YAC then that is a fact. If player Y averages 4.1 YAC then THAT is a fact. But it doesn't NOT make it a fact that player X is better after the catch just because he has a higher YAC then player Y. I've pointed this out many times.

[Sitting Bull]

Why is this thread so long? Even the biggest "G-Men" homer would say Witten is better.

[jimmy40]

Shockey has six touchdown catches this year, coming from 4, 1, 1, 2, 6 and 2 yards out. Last year, he had two TD catches -- both from 1 yard out (that's the same as Jeff Robinson this year). In 2002, his two TD catches were from 28 yards and 7 yards. For his career, his average TD catch is from a whopping 5.3 yards out, with only one longer than 7 yards.

Witten has five touchdown catches this year, coming from 10, 42, 17, 29 and 24 yards out. Last year, his only TD catch was a 36-yarder. For his career, his average TD catch is from 26.3 yards out, with none shorter than 10 yards.

So, which one is the gamebreaker?So they've both had the ecxact same number of chances from the ecxact same yardage in their careers? Amazing.

[jimmy40]

I think Witten has made huge strides this year. He's had the better season than Shockey, and has made moves to surpass him. Y'all?Now that linebackers and safeties can't hold on to tightends during their routes look for most teams to have "great" tightends in the next year or two.

[JDSmith]

Why is this thread so long? Even the biggest "G-Men" homer would say Witten is better.
Actually even the casual Gmen homers don't think Witten is as good as Shockey. We were discussing it on the ranch with fans from the Giants insiders board and Giants fans think Shockey is head and shoulders better than Witten. I haven't seen a single Giants fan say that Witten was better.

[AdamJT13]

From 12.5 yard per catch in 2003 to 16.1 in 2004. Your the stat boy but you want to ignore this?
There you go, tripping all over yourself again when you cite stats. First of all, 12.5 YPC is very high for a tight end. His 5.8 YAC last season was extremely high. And in both cases, his numbers were higher without Vick than with him -- 13.8 YPC and 6.8 YAC on his 33 catches from Johnson and Kittner, compared to 8.6 YPC and 2.8 YAC on his 11 catches from Vick.

Crumpler has played four seasons, two of which barely included Vick. And he has posted YPC averages of 13.2, 12.6, 12.5 (13.8 without Vick) and 16.1. All of those are very high for a tight end (Tony Gonzalez has never been higher than 12.9). His YAC averages have been 7.0, 4.5, 5.8 (6.8 without Vick) and 6.1. Again, those are extremely high for a tight end (Gonzalez has never been higher than 4.9). Saying that Alge Crumpler is a big-play tight end only because of Michael Vick is your most preposterous statement yet. He has been a big-play tight end without Vick.


If there's no numbers involved it can't be a fact.
Check that. THIS is your most preposterous statement yet.

"Bill Parcells is the coach of the Dallas Cowboys." That's not a fact? Riiiiiight.

[Dale]

Why is this thread so long? Even the biggest "G-Men" homer would say Witten is better.

I actually checked out a Giants board the week Witten made the Pro Bowl over Shockey. Several fans were clamoring over how overrated Witten was.

[Sarge]

I said stats don't always tell the truth, a**hole..

Class act.

[Oh_Canada]

There is only one TE better than Witten right now and he plays in San Diego.