Lesbian teen back at Miss. school after prom flap

[ethiostar]

Lesbian teen back at Miss. school after prom flap

By SHELIA BYRD, Associated Press Writer Shelia Byrd, Associated Press Writer 16 mins ago

JACKSON, Miss. – An 18-year-old Mississippi lesbian student whose school district canceled her senior prom rather than allow her to escort her girlfriend and wear a tuxedo said she got some unfriendly looks from classmates when she reluctantly returned to campus Thursday.

Constance McMillen said she didn't want to go back the day after the Itawamba County school board's decision, but her father told her she needed to face her classmates, teachers and school officials.

"My daddy told me that I needed to show them that I'm still proud of who I am," McMillen told The Associated Press in a telephone interview. "The fact that this will help people later on, that's what's helping me to go on."

The district announced Wednesday it wouldn't host the April 2 prom. The decision came after the American Civil Liberties Union told officials a policy banning same-sex prom dates violated students' rights. The ACLU said the district not letting McMillen wear a tuxedo violated her free expression rights.

McMillen said she felt some hostility toward her on the Itawamba County Agricultural High School campus.

"Somebody said, 'Thanks for ruining my senior year.'" McMillen said.
The school board issued a statement announcing it wouldn't host the event in Fulton, "due to the distractions to the educational process caused by recent events."

The statement didn't mention McMillen or the ACLU. When asked by the AP if McMillen's demand led to the cancellation, school board attorney Michele Floyd said she could only reference the statement.

"I guess they would rather do that than what's right, what's constitutionally correct," McMillen said.

Same-sex prom dates and cross-dressing are new issues for many high schools around the country, said Daryl Presgraves, a spokesman for GLSEN: Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network, a Washington-based advocacy group.

"A lot of schools actually react rather than do the research and find out what the rights of these students are," said Presgraves, who was preparing to facilitate a discussion about anti-gay bullying at a National Association of Secondary School Principals meeting.

The school district had said it hoped a privately sponsored prom could be held. McMillen said if that happens, she's sure she'll be excluded.

"It's a small town in Mississippi, and it's run by an older generation with money. Most of them are more conservative and they don't agree with it," she said.

Fulton Mayor Paul Walker said he supports the school district's decision and knew of no private efforts to host the prom.

"I think the community as a whole is probably in support of the school district," Walker said of the town of about 4,000.

Itawamba County is a rural area of about 23,000 people in north Mississippi near the Alabama state line. It's near Pontotoc County, Miss., where more than a decade ago school officials were sued in federal court over their practice of student-led intercom prayer and Bible classes.

A couple of students had different reactions to the decision.

Anna Watson, a 17-year-old junior at the high school, was looking forward to the prom, especially since the town's only hotspot is the bowling alley, she said.

"I am a little bummed out about it. I guess it's a decision that had to be made. Either way someone was going to get disappointed — either Constance was or we were," Watson said. "I don't agree with homosexuality, but I can't change what another person thinks or does."
McKenzie Chaney, 16, said she wasn't planning to attend the prom, but "it's kind of ridiculous that they can't let her wear the tuxedo and it all be over with."

A Feb. 5 memo to students laid out the criteria for bringing a date to the prom, and one requirement was that the person must be of the opposite sex.

Presgraves said his organization hears about school districts that prohibit same-sex prom dates and gay-straight alliance clubs at schools. He said those kind of policies are detrimental to gay students.

"It sends a message that these students shouldn't be treated the same," Presgraves said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_lesbian_prom_date

[hairic]

The school's just protecting itself. Can't be sued for discrimination if everyone is treated poorly. And it saves money!

[Bob Sacamano]

Lesbians? WHERE??

[bbgun]

Lesbians? WHERE??

LPGA.

[CliffnMesquite]

LPGA.

Zing!

[Hoofbite]

How stupid.

Really wish people would just let other
people live their lives. Who cares if someone is gay? More power too ya. Sacamanos unite!

[Bob Sacamano]

How stupid.

Really wish people would just let other
people live their lives. Who cares if someone is gay? More power too ya. Sacamanos unite!

I don't care if you're gay. That's why I only slap your hands away, not punch you in the face.

[SaltwaterServr]

LPGA.

WNBA, and before I get flamed it's from a good friend whose best female friend is dating a member of the LA team.

[k19]

WNBA, and before I get flamed it's from a good friend whose best female friend is dating a member of the LA team.

so basically youre sayin is
My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious.

[kmp77]

Did someone say....teen...and lesbian??

http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10062/m_familyguy_quagmire.gif

[ScipioCowboy]

The ACLU said the district not letting McMillen wear a tuxedo violated her free expression rights.

That's absurd. Schools have had dress codes since the beginning of time, and parents and students have been complaining about school dress codes since roughly about that same point.

The real travesty is the requirement on hair length. Why couldn't I sport my mullet?

[CanadianCowboysFan]

That's absurd. Schools have had dress codes since the beginning of time, and parents and students have been complaining about school dress codes since roughly about that same point.

The real travesty is the requirement on hair length. Why couldn't I sport my mullet?

I can see limiting re gangsta clothes, shirts with those "bad" words on it but not letting a chick wear a tuxedo seems discriminatory to me. Needless to say though, she wanted to wear one just to get attention and she has.

[Hoofbite]

I can see limiting re gangsta clothes, shirts with those "bad" words on it but not letting a chick wear a tuxedo seems discriminatory to me. Needless to say though, she wanted to wear one just to get attention and she has.

Doubtful.

If the school would have just allowed it, she gets no attention other than the weird looks from the people at the prom.

She probably wanted to wear it because she's a big bull..........

[Hostile]

She should have backed off. I know that will not be a popular opinion because it is not PC. She pushed and they were not going to be moved. All she accomplished was to hurt other people. Sad.

[Bob Sacamano]

Doubtful.

If the school would have just allowed it, she gets no attention other than the weird looks from the people at the prom.

She probably wanted to wear it because she's a big bull..........

She actually looks petite from the photo they showed of her.

[arglebargle]

She should have backed off. I know that will not be a popular opinion because it is not PC. She pushed and they were not going to be moved. All she accomplished was to hurt other people. Sad.

Sorry, I feel you are wrong here. She didn't have the power to do anything about the prom other than show up. The folks who run the school made the decision to kill the prom. Perhaps losing face at failing in a power struggle was too much, so they decided it was better to have no prom.

Sucks for the kids, but maybe they will learn a useful lesson.

[Hostile]

Sorry, I feel you are wrong here. She didn't have the power to do anything about the prom other than show up. The folks who run the school made the decision to kill the prom. Perhaps losing face at failing in a power struggle was too much, so they decided it was better to have no prom.

Sucks for the kids, but maybe they will learn a useful lesson.You can feel I am wrong, that is your right. I don't think I am. She wanted the rules changed to suit her. She pushed the issue. Many kids don't go to prom. I never did. She and her date could have gone and done anything together. Instead she chose to try and force others to do what she wants. She got big political backing and created an atmosphere where it was her way or no way. The kids got no way and they don't deserve it. She was selfish.

Let's say I wanted to wear my cowboy hat because that is who I am. They have a rule of no hats. Then I'm not going to go if I feel that strongly about it. I'm not going to try and ruin the experience for everybody else.

I am not fond of her not being allowed to go in the way that she wanted to, but those were the rules and she should have respected them. Instead she felt she was above the rules.

[trickblue]

Did someone say....teen...and lesbian??

http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10062/m_familyguy_quagmire.gif

http://i.usatoday.net/news/_photos/2010/03/10/promx-large.jpg

I'm wich ya...



http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ap_itawamba_100310_mn.jpg

Alrighty...


http://gordonkeith.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/misslesbian.jpeg

ummm...

[BrAinPaiNt]

Lesbian Proms are.....AWESOME!!!

Another thread with a bunch of women hating show tuners in it.

[Joe Rod]

Lesbian Proms are.....AWESOME!!!

Another thread with a bunch of women hating show tuners in it.

She's actually quite selfish. If she had thought about everyone involved, she would have just shown up to the Prom in a dress, snuck her girlfriend in, then taken video footage of her doing some serious slobberin suckie face with her girlfriend in front of the faculty before getting asked to leave. Win for the students, win for her, win for us after it gets posted on You-tube.

[BrAinPaiNt]

She's actually quite selfish. If she had thought about everyone involved, she would have just shown up to the Prom in a dress, snuck her girlfriend in, then taken video footage of her doing some serious slobberin suckie face with her girlfriend in front of the faculty before getting asked to leave. Win for the students, win for her, win for us after it gets posted on You-tube.

I might have to subscribe to your newsletter.

[TheCount]

You can feel I am wrong, that is your right. I don't think I am. She wanted the rules changed to suit her. She pushed the issue. Many kids don't go to prom. I never did. She and her date could have gone and done anything together. Instead she chose to try and force others to do what she wants. She got big political backing and created an atmosphere where it was her way or no way. The kids got no way and they don't deserve it. She was selfish.

Let's say I wanted to wear my cowboy hat because that is who I am. They have a rule of no hats. Then I'm not going to go if I feel that strongly about it. I'm not going to try and ruin the experience for everybody else.

I am not fond of her not being allowed to go in the way that she wanted to, but those were the rules and she should have respected them. Instead she felt she was above the rules.

A bit of a difference between a choice in attire and this, I'd say, but to each his own. I believe the whole point of the ACLU's ruling was saying that the rule was against her civil rights to begin with, at which point calling her selfish for trying to take advantage of her civil rights doesn't seem right.

I will say she sort of overdid it with insisting on the tux. She should have just worn a dress and enjoyed a night out with her date. I think she's mostly pushing to be able to go with her girlfriend, but the tux makes it seem like she's trying to make a spectacle out of it.

[bbgun]

http://gordonkeith.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/misslesbian.jpeg

ummm...

She and Jessica would make a cute, corpulent couple.

[Hostile]

A bit of a difference between a choice in attire and this, I'd say, but to each his own. I believe the whole point of the ACLU's ruling was saying that the rule was against her civil rights to begin with, at which point calling her selfish for trying to take advantage of her civil rights doesn't seem right.

I will say she sort of overdid it with insisting on the tux. She should have just worn a dress and enjoyed a night out with her date. I think she's mostly pushing to be able to go with her girlfriend, but the tux makes it seem like she's trying to make a spectacle out of it.She has a civil right not to go. Why is it civil rights only belong to certain groups? Don't kids who don't want to see 2 lesbians have any? That is why she gets no sympathy from me and the other kids do.

If she wants to be a lesbian, be a lesbian and have a happy life. Cool. I don't get it, but whatever. Don't push your lifestyle onto everyone else and think you are not violating their civil rights. She was selfish and other kids are paying for it. She is wrong. I don't think the school board is right, but she is wrong whether they are or not.

[Doomsday101]

LPGA.

You may want to check out todays LPGA there are some hotties on the tour.

[TheCount]

She has a civil right not to go. Why is it civil rights only belong to certain groups? Don't kids who don't want to see 2 lesbians have any? That is why she gets no sympathy from me and the other kids do.

If she wants to be a lesbian, be a lesbian and have a happy life. Cool. I don't get it, but whatever. Don't push your lifestyle onto everyone else and think you are not violating their civil rights. She was selfish and other kids are paying for it. She is wrong. I don't think the school board is right, but she is wrong whether they are or not.

Huh? It doesn't belong only to certain groups... that's why it's a civil right...

How is she pushing her lifestyle on anyone? Because she's going out in public? I don't want to see you wearing that ugly cowboy hat that you love so much, but it's I don't have a right to make you only wear it indoors now do I?!

Speaking of which, I was stuck on a packed train the other day next to this couple (straight couple) that insisted on necking the entire train ride, boy did I wish I had some kind of right to kick them off the train right then. I mean there wasn't even any room for me to reach down and change the song on my iPhone, that's how close we were.

[ScipioCowboy]

Huh? It doesn't belong only to certain groups... that's why it's a civil right...

How is she pushing her lifestyle on anyone? Because she's going out in public? I don't want to see you wearing that ugly cowboy hat that you love so much, but it's I don't have a right to make you only wear it indoors now do I?!

Actually, schools do have that right. At my high school, students were not allowed to wear Cowboy hats at school functions.

[Hostile]

Huh? It doesn't belong only to certain groups... that's why it's a civil right...

How is she pushing her lifestyle on anyone? Because she's going out in public? I don't want to see you wearing that ugly cowboy hat that you love so much, but it's I don't have a right to make you only wear it indoors now do I?!

Speaking of which, I was stuck on a packed train the other day next to this couple (straight couple) that insisted on necking the entire train ride, boy did I wish I had some kind of right to kick them off the train right then. I mean there wasn't even any room for me to reach down and change the song on my iPhone, that's how close we were.How is she pushing her lifestyle on anyone? She went to the ACLU to demand this and got her school's prom canceled.

I don't agree with the school board. I don't see why it is a big deal to let her wear her tux and take her girl. I think she is more in the wrong than they are. She pushed an issue that she could have backed away from because she wanted to. In return other kids are hurt.

Oh, and I am not real cool about straight couples making out in public either. I think it is disrespectful of others to make them feel uncomfortable. What two people do in their own privacy is of no concern. Public is not anyone's own privacy.

[Doomsday101]

Actually, schools do have that right. At my high school, students were not allowed to wear Cowboy hats at school functions.

My school had the right to tell you what you could wear and how long your hair could be. Anyone breaking the rules were sent home

[ScipioCowboy]

http://i.usatoday.net/news/_photos/2010/03/10/promx-large.jpg

I'm wich ya...



http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ap_itawamba_100310_mn.jpg

Alrighty...


http://gordonkeith.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/misslesbian.jpeg

ummm...

Little hippy, but she's still pretty.

She's going to make another woman very happy some day -- or a man after she decides this is all just a desperate cry for attention.:p:

[bbgun]

Hubba, hubba...

More like Jabba Jabba

[vta]

More like Jabba Jabba

:lmao: :lmao:

[ConcordCowboy]

That's what Homophobia will get you...a canceled Prom.

[TheCount]

Actually, schools do have that right. At my high school, students were not allowed to wear Cowboy hats at school functions.

That part was a joke. Clothing and sexuality have nothing in common. A dress code makes sense for a prom.

How is she pushing her lifestyle on anyone? She went to the ACLU to demand this and got her school's prom canceled.

I don't agree with the school board. I don't see why it is a big deal to let her wear her tux and take her girl. I think she is more in the wrong than they are. She pushed an issue that she could have backed away from because she wanted to. In return other kids are hurt.

Oh, and I am not real cool about straight couples making out in public either. I think it is disrespectful of others to make them feel uncomfortable. What two people do in their own privacy is of no concern. Public is not anyone's own privacy.

She didn't go to the ACLU to get the prom canceled, she went to the ACLU to have her school reminded of her civil rights. Her goal was to go, having it canceled by the school was done out of spite. You're reacting to it the same way they want the kids to, blame her.

Being gay and outside of your home is not a crime. If the building wasn't wheel chair accessible and a disabled person wanted to go, should the school have shut down the prom rather than provide a way for that person to access the building? Should the wheel-chair person have been forced to stay home and not bring it up for fear of the school retaliating like a bunch of brats?

There could easily have been a compromise: You can come with your date but no tux, we have a dress code. If you come in a tux this year then next year 12 guys show up in dresses just cause they can. This is a formal event.

Bingo, she gets what she wants and the school gets to maintain a level of decency for future events in terms of dress and the formality of the event.

Instead she probably pressed the tux and the school (being clearly homophobic) said fine, now no one is going (and stamped their feet like little kids in the process), see what you did! It's very juvenile.

[BrAinPaiNt]

That part was a joke. Clothing and sexuality have nothing in common. A dress code makes sense for a prom.



She didn't go to the ACLU to get the prom canceled, she went to the ACLU to have her school reminded of her civil rights. Her goal was to go, having it canceled by the school was done out of spite. You're reacting to it the same way they want the kids to, blame her.

Being gay and outside of your home is not a crime. If the building wasn't wheel chair accessible and a disabled person wanted to go, should the school have shut down the prom rather than provide a way for that person to access the building? Should the wheel-chair person have been forced to stay home and not bring it up for fear of the school retaliating like a bunch of brats?

There could easily have been a compromise: You can come with your date but no tux, we have a dress code. If you come in a tux this year then next year 12 guys show up in dresses just cause they can. This is a formal event.

Bingo, she gets what she wants and the school gets to maintain a level of decency for future events in terms of dress and the formality of the event.

Instead she probably pressed the tux and the school (being clearly homophobic) said fine, now no one is going (and stamped their feet like little kids in the process), see what you did! It's very juvenile.

^^This^^

[bbgun]

That's what Homophobia will get you...a canceled Prom.

What kinds of phobias are being practiced at "all black" or "women only" colleges?

[BrAinPaiNt]

What kinds of phobias are being practiced at "all black" or "women only" colleges?

BBgun phobia?

But I always love the black colleges argument...makes me laugh every time.

You Sir only bring out the best in all.

[bbgun]

BBgun phobia?

But I always love the black colleges argument...makes me laugh every time.

You Sir only bring out the best in all.

Thanks. Hypocrisy busting and the exposure of invidious double standards is one of my favorite pastimes. Keep self-serving discrimination alive!

[Doomsday101]

What kinds of phobias are being practiced at "all black" or "women only" colleges?

Yeah I want to go to an all womens college already have Hollins picked out

http://www.hollins.edu/

[bbgun]

Yeah I want to go to an all womens college already have Hollins picked out

http://www.hollins.edu/

Bigot. ;)

[ethiostar]

That part was a joke. Clothing and sexuality have nothing in common. A dress code makes sense for a prom.



She didn't go to the ACLU to get the prom canceled, she went to the ACLU to have her school reminded of her civil rights. Her goal was to go, having it canceled by the school was done out of spite. You're reacting to it the same way they want the kids to, blame her.

Being gay and outside of your home is not a crime. If the building wasn't wheel chair accessible and a disabled person wanted to go, should the school have shut down the prom rather than provide a way for that person to access the building? Should the wheel-chair person have been forced to stay home and not bring it up for fear of the school retaliating like a bunch of brats?

There could easily have been a compromise: You can come with your date but no tux, we have a dress code. If you come in a tux this year then next year 12 guys show up in dresses just cause they can. This is a formal event.

Bingo, she gets what she wants and the school gets to maintain a level of decency for future events in terms of dress and the formality of the event.

Instead she probably pressed the tux and the school (being clearly homophobic) said fine, now no one is going (and stamped their feet like little kids in the process), see what you did! It's very juvenile.

Very well said.

[Doomsday101]

Bigot. ;)

There were some black girls and Asian girls there . Thing about women if your hot I don't care what color you are. I will say I will not fool around with Green women other than that I'm open to the possibilities. :laugh1:

[Avaj]

But I always love the black colleges argument...makes me laugh every time.


What argument is that :confused:

[ethiostar]

There were some black girls and Asian girls there . Thing about women if your hot I don't care what color you are. I will say I will not fool around with Green women other than that I'm open to the possibilities. :laugh1:

I don't know, Captain Kirk seemed like he had a good time with one.

http://scifisizzle.com/imagegallery/images/yvonne_craig/yvonne_craig_0.jpg

[ConcordCowboy]

What kinds of phobias are being practiced at "all black" or "women only" colleges?

So that school system is "all heterosexual".

I didn't know that.

[Doomsday101]

I don't know, Captain Kirk seemed like he had a good time with one.

http://scifisizzle.com/imagegallery/images/yvonne_craig/yvonne_craig_0.jpg

I remember seeing episode and no something about green chicks that just is a turn off to me. Maybe a pink one :laugh2:

[bbgun]

So that school system is "all heterosexual".

I didn't know that.

Beats me. As I noted earlier, some institutions blatantly discriminate on the basis of race and gender, whereas others do so with sexual orientation. Only one of these things is considered evil, however. Guess which one.

[TheCount]

I remember seeing episode and no something about green chicks that just is a turn off to me. Maybe a pink one :laugh2:

It's because you associate green skin with the incredible hulk, and there's nothing sexy about a muscular 2,000 lb dude. :laugh2:

[ScipioCowboy]

Several years ago, wasn't there a similar flap over a girl who wanted to wear a Confederate flag dress to her prom and the principal forced her to leave?

[vta]

I remember seeing episode and no something about green chicks that just is a turn off to me. Maybe a pink one :laugh2:

It's because you associate green skin with the incredible hulk, and there's nothing sexy about a muscular 2,000 lb dude. :laugh2:

Verdantaphobes.

[vta]

Several years ago, wasn't there a similar flap over a girl who wanted to wear a Confederate flag dress to her prom and the principal forced her to leave?

See bbguns selective discrimination posts. ;)

[ScipioCowboy]

See bbguns selective discrimination posts. ;)

Here it is:

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=16565

Where was the ACLU in this case? It's possible they were involved, but I'm not finding their name.

[TheCount]

Here it is:

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=16565

Where was the ACLU in this case? It's possible they were involved, but I'm not finding their name.

Keep reading:

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=15405

They have stepped in when asked to in a very similar case, so if your claim is that they only helped in this case because she's gay, you'd be wrong. If you go to them with a civil rights issue, they will help you. The ACLU has nothing to do with this story anyway, really.

[ConcordCowboy]

Beats me. As I noted earlier, some institutions blatantly discriminate on the basis of race and gender, whereas others do so with sexual orientation. Only one of these things is considered evil, however. Guess which one.

I don't have a problem with all girls schools...there are all boys schools too.

I understand the rationale behind them...although I would never send my kid to one...but to each their own.

Now the all black thing I can see why people would have a problem with that.

Do we have all white schools?

If we do then there should be no problem...if not then there should be a problem.

Now this girl was in neither situation...if it's all black or all girls...you know what you're getting.

This girl is NOT going to a "all heterosexual school".

Hence the difference.

She should have been allowed to take her girlfriend with her...I can see their point about the dress code, but to cancel a whole prom because of it?

No.

[TheCount]

I don't have a problem with all girls schools...there are all boys schools too.

I understand the rationale behind them...although I would never send my kid to one...but to each their own.

Now the all black thing I can see why people would have a problem with that.

Do we have all white schools?

If we do then there should be no problem...if not then there should be a problem.

Now this girl was in neither situation...if it's all black or all girls...you know what you're getting.

This girl is NOT going to a "all heterosexual school".

Hence the difference.

She should have been allowed to take her girlfriend with her...I can see their point about the dress code, but to cancel a whole prom because of it?

No.

You may be confusing a "historically black school", with some kind of actual rule that prohibits other races from applying and being accepted to the school.

A white person can, and has, been accepted to historically black schools just like black people can, and have been accepted to historically white schools.

What you have to deal with when you get there, in either case, is/was probably not all that different.

But again, race has nothing to do with this particular story. Not ever civil case has to become a racial discussion.

[Bob Sacamano]

I was in a Black Fraternity.

[ScipioCowboy]

Keep reading:

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=15405

They have stepped in when asked to in a very similar case, so if your claim is that they only helped in this case because she's gay, you'd be wrong. If you go to them with a civil rights issue, they will help you. The ACLU has nothing to do with this story anyway, really.

Actually, I didn't claim anything. I asked a question.

The article states, "The West Virginia ACLU applauded the judge’s ruling." Applauding a ruling after the fact is quite a bit different from actually offering help while the case has yet to be resolved.

[BrAinPaiNt]

Actually, I didn't claim anything. I asked a question.

The article states, "The West Virginia ACLU applauded the judge’s ruling." Applauding a ruling after the fact is quite a bit different from actually offering help while the case has yet to be resolved.

I can tell the star trek girl got you all flustered.;)

[bbgun]

I was in a Black Fraternity.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/3021/familyphotos8.jpg

One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't belong.

[Bob Sacamano]

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/3021/familyphotos8.jpg
:laugh2:That's me!

[TheCount]

Actually, I didn't claim anything. I asked a question.

The article states, "The West Virginia ACLU applauded the judge’s ruling." Applauding a ruling after the fact is quite a bit different from actually offering help while the case has yet to be resolved.


Bragg enlisted the help of the American Civil Liberties Union of West Virginia, which filed a federal lawsuit on his behalf in April 2005. On May 31, U.S. District Judge John T. Copenhaver Jr. ruled in a memorandum opinion and order in Bragg v. Swanson (http://www.wvsd.uscourts.gov/district/opinions/pdf/Bragg%20v.%20Swanson--Final%20Order.pdf) that Principal Joyce Vessey Swanson had violated Bragg’s First Amendment rights.

Maybe you're referring to the first article, but the second one says they ACLU filed a lawsuit on his behalf.

[ScipioCowboy]

I can tell the star trek girl got you all flustered.;)

Nah. Vina was hotter.

http://www.startrek.com/imageuploads/200412/tos-001-vina-orion-slave-girl/320x240.jpg

[CanadianCowboysFan]

You may be confusing a "historically black school", with some kind of actual rule that prohibits other races from applying and being accepted to the school.

A white person can, and has, been accepted to historically black schools just like black people can, and have been accepted to historically white schools.

What you have to deal with when you get there, in either case, is/was probably not all that different.

But again, race has nothing to do with this particular story. Not ever civil case has to become a racial discussion.

yeah wasn't there a movie about a white guy who was QB at Grambling back? Might have been John Ritter who played him but not sure.,

I remember a black lineman on the other team yelling at him "hey white boy, click (throat slash).

[bbgun]

I don't have a problem with all girls schools...there are all boys schools too.

I understand the rationale behind them...although I would never send my kid to one...but to each their own.

Now the all black thing I can see why people would have a problem with that.

Do we have all white schools?

If we do then there should be no problem...if not then there should be a problem.

Now this girl was in neither situation...if it's all black or all girls...you know what you're getting.

This girl is NOT going to a "all heterosexual school".

Hence the difference.

She should have been allowed to take her girlfriend with her...I can see their point about the dress code, but to cancel a whole prom because of it?

No.

Except that public schools typically reflect the values of the local community, from textbook selections to course materials. Grambling and Bryn Mawr have certain standards/values, and so does this small town. All of them rationalize their prejudices.

[Hostile]

She didn't go to the ACLU to get the prom canceled, she went to the ACLU to have her school reminded of her civil rights. Her goal was to go, having it canceled by the school was done out of spite. You're reacting to it the same way they want the kids to, blame her.

Being gay and outside of your home is not a crime. If the building wasn't wheel chair accessible and a disabled person wanted to go, should the school have shut down the prom rather than provide a way for that person to access the building? Should the wheel-chair person have been forced to stay home and not bring it up for fear of the school retaliating like a bunch of brats?

There could easily have been a compromise: You can come with your date but no tux, we have a dress code. If you come in a tux this year then next year 12 guys show up in dresses just cause they can. This is a formal event.

Bingo, she gets what she wants and the school gets to maintain a level of decency for future events in terms of dress and the formality of the event.

Instead she probably pressed the tux and the school (being clearly homophobic) said fine, now no one is going (and stamped their feet like little kids in the process), see what you did! It's very juvenile.Oh give me a huge break from more PC crap. I don't agree with the school district stopping the prom, but I understand why they did. Now no one can claim discrimination.

That's really the goal of the ACLU and Ms. McPherson in this case right? That everyone get treated equally? Hey mission accomplished so don't tell me that isn't what they wanted. I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.

What they wanted was for her to be given special consideration because she has a special circumstance. Uh, no. That isn't what civil liberties are for.

I would never push something like this. She did, and I don't respect it because it hurt other people who are completely innocent.

[Hostile]

yeah wasn't there a movie about a white guy who was QB at Grambling back? Might have been John Ritter who played him but not sure.,

I remember a black lineman on the other team yelling at him "hey white boy, click (throat slash).
Bruce Jenner in Grambling's White Tiger.

[ScipioCowboy]

Maybe you're referring to the first article, but the second one says they ACLU filed a lawsuit on his behalf.

The second article is a different case.

Either way, all schools have dress codes. It's baffling that people are so opposed to following attire guidelines for a few hours everyday.

It's no different in the workplace.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

She has a civil right not to go. Why is it civil rights only belong to certain groups? Don't kids who don't want to see 2 lesbians have any? That is why she gets no sympathy from me and the other kids do.

If she wants to be a lesbian, be a lesbian and have a happy life. Cool. I don't get it, but whatever. Don't push your lifestyle onto everyone else and think you are not violating their civil rights. She was selfish and other kids are paying for it. She is wrong. I don't think the school board is right, but she is wrong whether they are or not.

Being gay is not a "lifestyle" anymore than being black is a lifestyle. Lifestyle implies choice and it is clear no one would choose to be gay given the discrimination our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters face day in and day out.

I also doubt there are many people who do not want to see lesbians. Granted she is probably pretty ugly and not your typical Friday night blue movie hot lesbian but not many guys turn away from some good lesbian action.

Hell a song went to the top of the charts ou presque about kissing a girl.

I kissed a girl and I liked it
the taste of her cherry chapstick
I kissed a girl just to try it
hope my boyfriend don't mind it,,,,

I am sure you know the tune

[CanadianCowboysFan]

The second article is a different case.

Either way, all schools have dress codes. It's baffling that people are so opposed to following attire guidelines for a few hours everyday.

It's no different in the workplace.

so if your tot's school (assuming you have a tot) had a code that boys wore dresses and girls wore pants, would you not be opposed given it is only a few hours a day?

[ScipioCowboy]

so if your tot's school (assuming you have a tot) had a code that boys wore dresses and girls wore pants, would you not be opposed given it is only a few hours a day?

We'd find him a good Scottish kilt.

[ethiostar]

You may be confusing a "historically black school", with some kind of actual rule that prohibits other races from applying and being accepted to the school.

A white person can, and has, been accepted to historically black schools just like black people can, and have been accepted to historically white schools.

What you have to deal with when you get there, in either case, is/was probably not all that different.

But again, race has nothing to do with this particular story. Not ever civil case has to become a racial discussion.

Here is a good read on that topic and gives some stats on it as well.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=4874870&page=1

[ScipioCowboy]

Being gay is not a "lifestyle" anymore than being black is a lifestyle. Lifestyle implies choice and it is clear no one would choose to be gay given the discrimination our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters face day in and day out.


What about people who are bisexual?

Serious question here. No hidden meaning.

[Joe Rod]

I would never push something like this. She did, and I don't respect it because it hurt other people who are completely innocent.

Innocents were hurt because the Prom was cancelled. The school district cancelled the Prom, not the girl.

[ethiostar]

I don't know if it wasn't clear from the article i posted but the school's MAIN objection was that she was planning on attending the prom with her female partner. Sure they also have a code stating that only boys can wear tuxedos but i don't think it would have mattered even if she had agreed to wear a dress instead. As long as her date was a female it wasn't going to be allowed, period.


At the center of the lawsuit is a memorandum from the school to students, dated February 5, which states that prom dates must be of the opposite sex.

Also, when McMillen expressed a desire to wear a tuxedo to the prom, the superintendent told her only male students were allowed to wear tuxes, according to court documents.http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/03/11/mississippi.prom.suit/index.html

[StanleySpadowski]

She got what she wanted........attention and to make everyone else's life as miserable as hers.

Maybe instead of calling the ACLU, she should have called a competent therapist. Anyone that fat that young obviously has some issues. She's using a quart of ice cream to deal with something........

[ConcordCowboy]

You may be confusing a "historically black school", with some kind of actual rule that prohibits other races from applying and being accepted to the school.

A white person can, and has, been accepted to historically black schools just like black people can, and have been accepted to historically white schools.

What you have to deal with when you get there, in either case, is/was probably not all that different.

But again, race has nothing to do with this particular story. Not ever civil case has to become a racial discussion.

Well if there is no rule that whites can't get in and they have and then they were treated the same as the blacks by the administration...then there should be no problem.

[ConcordCowboy]

Except that public schools typically reflect the values of the local community, from textbook selections to course materials. Grambling and Bryn Mawr have certain standards/values, and so does this small town. All of them rationalize their prejudices.

Yeah and in this case it would be homophobia.

[Hostile]

Being gay is not a "lifestyle" anymore than being black is a lifestyle. Lifestyle implies choice and it is clear no one would choose to be gay given the discrimination our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters face day in and day out.

I also doubt there are many people who do not want to see lesbians. Granted she is probably pretty ugly and not your typical Friday night blue movie hot lesbian but not many guys turn away from some good lesbian action.

Hell a song went to the top of the charts ou presque about kissing a girl.

I kissed a girl and I liked it
the taste of her cherry chapstick
I kissed a girl just to try it
hope my boyfriend don't mind it,,,,

I am sure you know the tuneI disagree. Every Black friend I have ever had is offended when they get compared to gays.

No, I don't know the tune and I really don't care.

[Hostile]

Innocents were hurt because the Prom was cancelled. The school district cancelled the Prom, not the girl.Because of her actions. No one can deny that, no matter how hard they spin it.

[TheCount]

She got what she wanted........attention and to make everyone else's life as miserable as hers.

Maybe instead of calling the ACLU, she should have called a competent therapist. Anyone that fat that young obviously has some issues. She's using a quart of ice cream to deal with something........

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:
Were you the one that flipped her to the gay side?

Oh give me a huge break from more PC crap. I don't agree with the school district stopping the prom, but I understand why they did. Now no one can claim discrimination.

That's really the goal of the ACLU and Ms. McPherson in this case right? That everyone get treated equally? Hey mission accomplished so don't tell me that isn't what they wanted. I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.

What they wanted was for her to be given special consideration because she has a special circumstance. Uh, no. That isn't what civil liberties are for.

I would never push something like this. She did, and I don't respect it because it hurt other people who are completely innocent.

More power to ya man, can't help but disagree. Not a huge deal.

Well if there is no rule that whites can't get in and they have and then they were treated the same as the blacks by the administration...then there should be no problem.

Like I said, a black student at a historically white school probably deals with the same things that a white student at a historically black school would. And it's not necessarily all bad, either.

[bbgun]

Yeah and in this case it would be homophobia.

Yes, which would explain why she was not allowed to enroll there. Oh wait.

[Joe Rod]

Because of her actions. No one can deny that, no matter how hard they spin it.

They didn't have to cancel it, they chose to. No one can deny that, no matter how hard they spin it.

[StanleySpadowski]

How about Dallas signs her to be the new NT, she definitely has the girth, and they move Ratliff to DE.....

[Hostile]

They didn't have to cancel it, they chose to. No one can deny that, no matter how hard they spin it.I think they did have to. That way no one can claim discrimination. Not even her.

[TheCount]

I think they did have to. That way no one can claim discrimination. Not even her.

They should try shutting down the entire airport because one person claims they are being searched because they are middle eastern. :laugh2:

[hairic]

Beats me. As I noted earlier, some institutions blatantly discriminate on the basis of race and gender, whereas others do so with sexual orientation. Only one of these things is considered evil, however. Guess which one.

Private schools have greater power to to discriminate or do things that if government schools were to try to do, it would be illegal. There's no Constitution limiting individuals like there is with the government. If a private school only wanted left-handed one-legged Albino lesbian Hindus under 140 pounds who agree to never wear underwear to attend, they could try to limit the students to that criteria. The school wouldn't be profitable, but doing that is their right and legal.

That's why the school is asking the local community to host a private prom, to keep the lesbians away legally.

I think they did have to.

They didn't. At least, I didn't see anywhere where a court issued an injunction or lawyers were seeking one. The worse that would have happened to the school had they gone ahead with their rules, is a court would have awarded damages to her if they ruled her rights had been infringed. That wouldn't happen until maybe a couple years from now.

[Ren]

How about Dallas signs her to be the new NT, she definitely has the girth, and they move Ratliff to DE.....

:muttley:

seriously, chicks shouldn't be allowed to be lesbos unless they're hot and have all their sex in public

[Hostile]

They should try shutting down the entire airport because one person claims they are being searched because they are middle eastern. :laugh2:You lost me.

[Joe Rod]

I think they did have to. That way no one can claim discrimination. Not even her.

So instead of having the girl claim discrimination, they are getting national exposure that paints them in a very bad light and they will now have to spend taxpayer dollars fighting a lawsuit that the ACLU filed on behalf of the student claiming that they violated her civil rights.

I don't see how they helped themselves out very much.

[Hostile]

So instead of having the girl claim discrimination, they are getting national exposure that paints them in a very bad light and they will now have to spend taxpayer dollars fighting a lawsuit that the ACLU filed on behalf of the student claiming that they violated her civil rights.

I don't see how they helped themselves out very much.What bad light? I don't see it that way. They refused to cave in. Good for them.

[StanleySpadowski]

So instead of having the girl claim discrimination, they are getting national exposure that paints them in a very bad light and they will now have to spend taxpayer dollars fighting a lawsuit that the ACLU filed on behalf of the student claiming that they violated her civil rights.

I don't see how they helped themselves out very much.

What's the very bad light?


A majority of Americans see homosexuality as an unacceptable behavior.

[zrinkill]

I disagree. Every Black friend I have ever had is offended when they get compared to gays.

No, I don't know the tune and I really don't care.

Saw a stand up comedian last night making fun of that ..... she said she never had to sit her parents down and tell them she was black like she did when she came out gay.

She said her mother would have said .... " Black?!? ..... Oh Lordy ... its because I let you watch soul train isn't it " .... I laughed.

[Hostile]

Saw a stand up comedian last night making fun of that ..... she said she never had to sit her parents down and tell them she was black like she did when she came out gay.

She said her mother would have said .... " Black?!? ..... Oh Lordy ... its because I let you watch soul train isn't it " .... I laughed.I used to lift weights with my neighbor. He was born in Ghana. He moved to Cali a couple months ago and I miss him. He'd have loved that, because he was really offended by the comparisons.

[Joe Rod]

What bad light? I don't see it that way. They refused to cave in. Good for them.

This girl will eventually hit the talk show circuit and the school is going to take it on the chin as a result. Also, they're going to be forced to cave in by way of lawsuit. Even if they drag it out long enough to not hold it this year, the girl's case will force them and all schools in the state to allow gay and lesbian couples to attend their Prom's going forward. At the end of the day all they will be is a bunch of doofuses who would prefer to pay taxpayer dollars on legal fees as opposed to letting the kids there go to a Prom.

[Hostile]

This girl will eventually hit the talk show circuit and the school is going to take it on the chin as a result. Also, they're going to be forced to cave in by way of lawsuit. Even if they drag it out long enough to not hold it this year, the girl's case will force them and all schools in the state to allow gay and lesbian couples to attend their Prom's going forward. At the end of the day all they will be is a bunch of doofuses who would prefer to pay taxpayer dollars on legal fees as opposed to letting the kids there go to a Prom.Ah, so now you agree with me that she is the one pushing the issue.

Thank you. Was that really so hard?

[TheCount]

Ah, so now you agree with me that she is the one pushing the issue.

Thank you. Was that really so hard?

Obviously she pushed it. The went to the ACLU...

I think the difference is you think she was wrong for pushing it and some of us don't.

[Hostile]

Obviously she pushed it. The went to the ACLU...

I think the difference is you think she was wrong for pushing it and some of us don't.I do.

[arglebargle]

What bad light? I don't see it that way. They refused to cave in. Good for them.

I was under the impression that they (the school board) did not even attempt to negotiate (say, about the tux), just went and pulled the prom.

When local custom is against the law, how do you think it should be handled?

[Hostile]

I was under the impression that they (the school board) did not even attempt to negotiate (say, about the tux), just went and pulled the prom.

When local custom is against the law, how do you think it should be handled?I don't know. Not enough details. Give me an example.

[Joe Rod]

What's the very bad light?


A majority of Americans see homosexuality as an unacceptable behavior.

Really, because CNN just did a poll where almost 70% of those asked favor allowing gays to openly serve in the military and, for the first time ever, more people polled do not feel that homosexual relationships are a moral issue than those who do (50% to 48%). DC just legalized gay marriages. Times are changing.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/02/22/rel4n.pdf

Regardless of that, people in general tend to get annoyed when someone's rights are being infringed upon.

[Hostile]

Really, because CNN just did a poll where almost 70% of those asked favor allowing gays to openly serve in the military and, for the first time ever, more people polled do not feel that homosexual relationships are a moral issue than those who do (50% to 48%). DC just legalized gay marriages. Times are changing.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/02/22/rel4n.pdf

Regardless of that, people in general tend to get annoyed when someone's rights are being infringed upon.CNN should do a poll asking those in the military. Then I would pay attention to it.

[Joe Rod]

Ah, so now you agree with me that she is the one pushing the issue.

Thank you. Was that really so hard?

I don't agree with you at all. They pushed their morals on her by telling her she couldn't do what she knew what was within her legal rights to do. She pushed back because she knew what they were trying to do would not fly if it was brought to a higher power. They are the ones pushing their agenda, all she wanted to do was go to the Prom.

[Hostile]

I don't agree with you at all. They pushed their morals on her by telling her she couldn't do what she knew what was within her legal rights to do. She pushed back because she knew what they were trying to do would not fly if it was brought to a higher power. They are the ones pushing their agenda, all she wanted to do was go to the Prom.A dress code is pushing morals?

Oh now I have heard it all.

[zrinkill]

CNN should do a poll asking those in the military. Then I would pay attention to it.

Yup ....

Asking a poll in New York and San Fransisco is not getting the true story.

[Joe Rod]

A dress code is pushing morals?

Oh now I have heard it all.

They dress code isn't why they cancelled the Prom. Ethio already pointed this out:

I don't know if it wasn't clear from the article i posted but the school's MAIN objection was that she was planning on attending the prom with her female partner. Sure they also have a code stating that only boys can wear tuxedos but i don't think it would have mattered even if she had agreed to wear a dress instead. As long as her date was a female it wasn't going to be allowed, period.


http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/03/11/mississippi.prom.suit/index.html

[ScipioCowboy]

Really, because CNN just did a poll where almost 70% of those asked favor allowing gays to openly serve in the military and, for the first time ever, more people polled do not feel that homosexual relationships are a moral issue than those who do (50% to 48%). DC just legalized gay marriages. Times are changing.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/02/22/rel4n.pdf

Regardless of that, people in general tend to get annoyed when someone's rights are being infringed upon.

Interesting poll, but election results would suggest otherwise. The majority of Gay marriage initiatives have failed at the voting booth, and California passed Proposition 8 as recently as 2008.

For the record, I'm perfectly willing to allow gays to serve openly in the military.

[Hostile]

They dress code isn't why they cancelled the Prom. Ethio already pointed this out:
Then don't go. In the other thread about the nude body that was decapitated CowboyMike said no one has to buy Hustler magazine. She doesn't have to go to the Prom. There is no constitutional right to go to the Prom.

Proms have a dress code. Obey it or don't go. If I can't wear my cowboy hat I either don't wear it or I don't go. My right of "free expression" isn't being challenged. That was a load of crap.

She wants to make the Prom a spectacle. Why else would she want to wear a tux? The school board said no.

Proms have standards. What exactly is new here? Should we next allow a student to go nude so he has "free expression?"

Like I said, this is PC crap, not homophobia as someone else said. She got her wish. People know who she is and there is no discrimination. It's too damned bad the spectacle she wanted to cause won't work. Too bad, so sad.

[arglebargle]

CNN should do a poll asking those in the military. Then I would pay attention to it.

Truman, however, didn't take a poll of the military.

[Hostile]

Truman, however, didn't take a poll of the military.
Once again comparing Blacks to gays.

I see no connection.

[StanleySpadowski]

Really, because CNN just did a poll where almost 70% of those asked favor allowing gays to openly serve in the military and, for the first time ever, more people polled do not feel that homosexual relationships are a moral issue than those who do (50% to 48%). DC just legalized gay marriages. Times are changing.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/02/22/rel4n.pdf

Regardless of that, people in general tend to get annoyed when someone's rights are being infringed upon.

Picking one poll that's considered an outlier with questionable at best methodology that barely covers your point isn't the strongest argument.


And what about the rights of the student who wants to bring a farm animal, or the one who wants to bring the child molestor? Are you getting annoyed when their "rights" are infringed upon.

You can't even make a cogent argument about consenting adults as these high school students are clearly not adults.

[ScipioCowboy]

This case provides a strong argument for school choice, in my opinion. If her parents had been able to choose which school to send their daughter, they might've found one more accommodating to her lifestyle.

Just a thought...

[arglebargle]

I think the tux is a red herring. Actually don't have a tremendous issue with the school's dress code thing, even though I don't care for them much.

It's not like putting a suit on the guy working the pawnshop suddenly makes it legit.

[Doomsday101]

You think it would be an issue if a guy brought a guy to the prom and his date was wearing an evening gown? :laugh2:

[arglebargle]

Once again comparing Blacks to gays.

I see no connection.

If Truman had taken a poll, nothing would have ever happened.

[Hostile]

If Truman had taken a poll, nothing would have ever happened.
No connection.

[arglebargle]

Picking one poll that's considered an outlier with questionable at best methodology that barely covers your point isn't the strongest argument.


And what about the rights of the student who wants to bring a farm animal, or the one who wants to bring the child molestor? Are you getting annoyed when their "rights" are infringed upon.

You can't even make a cogent argument about consenting adults as these high school students are clearly not adults.

Actually, by Prom time, many of these students are probably 18, right?

[Joe Rod]

Then don't go. In the other thread about the nude body that was decapitated CowboyMike said no one has to buy Hustler magazine. She doesn't have to go to the Prom. There is no constitutional right to go to the Prom.

Proms have a dress code. Obey it or don't go. If I can't wear my cowboy hat I either don't wear it or I don't go. My right of "free expression" isn't being challenged. That was a load of crap.

She wants to make the Prom a spectacle. Why else would she want to wear a tux? The school board said no.

Proms have standards. What exactly is new here? Should we next allow a student to go nude so he has "free expression?"

Like I said, this is PC crap, not homophobia as someone else said. She got her wish. People know who she is and there is no discrimination. It's too damned bad the spectacle she wanted to cause won't work. Too bad, so sad.

Are you just flat out ignoring that the dress code is not the reason why they cancelled the Prom? If she really wanted a spectacle, then the school only helped her platform. Now she is getting national publicity. Good job school district.

[BrAinPaiNt]

CNN should do a poll asking those in the military. Then I would pay attention to it.

The military times did a poll back in 08...think it was 08 and the results were just over half of those were against repealing DADT. A few years earlier a Stars and Stripes poll had similar numbers.

By the way...those polls were taken from active duty military men so it is not far off the mark as just a little over half did not want it repealed.

Not going to get into any real arguments in this thread over this whole thing because frankly too many people are too set in their ways to ever take much into account and change their opinions.

Just wanted to put the above out there since you said you wanted a poll asking those in the military poll and to see if you would actually pay attention to it or just say you would...i'm a stinker like that.;)

[Hostile]

Are you just flat out ignoring that the dress code is not the reason why they cancelled the Prom? If she really wanted a spectacle, then the school only helped her platform. Now she is getting national publicity. Good job school district.Hell no. They canceled it so she has no claims of discrimination.

She rocks.

[vta]

Polls are gay.

[zrinkill]

If Truman had taken a poll, nothing would have ever happened.


You are the ones talking about Polls.

Why bring them up and then attempt to discredit them?

[CanadianCowboysFan]

What about people who are bisexual?

Serious question here. No hidden meaning.

They are just lucky I guess, they should never go without scoring.

I think there are a wide range of sexualities. Men do nothing for me, just women but I could see some liking both. My view for the most part though is if you are bisexual, you are doing so just to hide your gayness.

[BrAinPaiNt]

Polls are gay.

Gay polls are hot...wait...WHAT!?!?!

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Once again comparing Blacks to gays.

I see no connection.

how so? Neither one is a choice

[Joe Rod]

Picking one poll that's considered an outlier with questionable at best methodology that barely covers your point isn't the strongest argument.


And what about the rights of the student who wants to bring a farm animal, or the one who wants to bring the child molestor? Are you getting annoyed when their "rights" are infringed upon.

You can't even make a cogent argument about consenting adults as these high school students are clearly not adults.

:laugh2: Did you really post that after you posted absolutely nothing to support your stance at all? I personally don't care about the issue either way, it's just a good topic that I decided to take a side on and debate. The girl is eighteen, so she is legally an adult.

[tomson75]

Lmao...just when I thought he couldn't surprise me with his "opinions/facts"....BAM!

There's another one!

[CanadianCowboysFan]

I disagree. Every Black friend I have ever had is offended when they get compared to gays.

No, I don't know the tune and I really don't care.

Yeah because they don't like being called a homosexual because they are discriminated against. You have proven my point, no one would choose to be gay because it opens you up to discrimination,

You don't know who Katy Perry is? Do you live under a rock?

[Joe Rod]

Hell no. They canceled it so she has no claims of discrimination.

She rocks.

The ACLU is still filing a lawsuit claiming discrimination. The school is going to have to fork over dollars for legal expenses.

[jimmy40]

This was an interesting story till they showed her from the neck down.

[BrAinPaiNt]

Please stop the personal attacks and name calling.

Also Please leave religion and or politics out of the thread.

Thanks

[Hostile]

Yeah because they don't like being called a homosexual because they are discriminated against. You have proven my point, no one would choose to be gay because it opens you up to discrimination,

You don't know who Katy Perry is? Do you live under a rock?I've heard the name. I pretty much don't listen to that genre of music, so I haven't heard the song.

You have no point as usual.

[Ren]

This was an interesting story till they showed her from the neck down.


:lmao2:

[BrAinPaiNt]

I've heard the name. I pretty much don't listen to that genre of music, so I haven't heard the song.

You have no point as usual.

I never heard of her but she was one of the judges on the American Idols thing earlier in the season. Think she kind of had the tiff with the female judge.

[Hostile]

The ACLU is still filing a lawsuit claiming discrimination. The school is going to have to fork over dollars for legal expenses.That is truly a pity. I hope the school wins since they clearly did not discriminate. They canceled the prom.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

I've heard the name. I pretty much don't listen to that genre of music, so I haven't heard the song.

You have no point as usual.

ok point blank, do you think homosexuality is a choice and if so, why do you believe that to be the case?

[arglebargle]

No connection.

Don't agree. This was a response to the validity of taking a poll of the military to see whether a change should be made. Believe me, if Truman had taken a poll, there would never have been blacks serving in integrated units in the military at that time.

If you were to break down attitudes on things like this Prom debacle, I think you would see a marked difference in view based on age. There will be changes in store eventually. It's pretty much the nature of the beast. These things are rear guard actions...so to speak.

I bet the kids would much rather have the Prom, with tux, or with the female couple than not.

And one thing I did like, that hasn't been mentioned much: Her dad told her she had to head back to school the next day to face up to the music. If you think it's worth the fight, you have to face the consequences.

[TheCount]

Gay polls are hot...wait...WHAT!?!?!

hahahahah, what the hell is going on here?!

[vta]

how so? Neither one is a choice

Skin color and behavior can never be correlated.
No amount of arguing will make it so, and if you try you'll certainly be in danger of coming full circle to certain prejudices.

[Joe Rod]

By the way, people are already offering to host a Prom for this girl and her classmates. From the Associated Press:

New Orleans hotel owner Sean Cummings told The Clarion-Ledger of Jackson he was so disappointed with the school board's decision he offered to transport the students in buses to the city and host a free prom at one of his properties.

[Hostile]

I never heard of her but she was one of the judges on the American Idols thing earlier in the season. Think she kind of had the tiff with the female judge.Brunette, kind of big eyes?

I think I heard her sing once, and that was on last year's show. I thought it was poor taste that she had a cape with one of the contestant's name on it.

I think I also watched a video that someone on here mentioned. Something about Las Vegas.

I am not interested in pop music. Strictly classic rock and country for this cowboy.

[jimmy40]

ok point blank, do you think homosexuality is a choice and if so, why do you believe that to be the case?yes, because I've never seen a gay baby.

[ScipioCowboy]

Yeah because they don't like being called a homosexual because they are discriminated against. You have proven my point, no one would choose to be gay because it opens you up to discrimination,

You don't know who Katy Perry is? Do you live under a rock?

I disagree with your reasoning. Morbidly obese people open themselves up to discrimination. Heavily-tatooed people open themselves up to discrimination. History is riddled with people who adopted controversial beliefs that not only exposed them to discrimination but also the prospect of execution.

And all of these people made a choice to put themselves in such a situation.

[TheCount]

I've heard the name. I pretty much don't listen to that genre of music, so I haven't heard the song.

You have no point as usual.

You are WAY too serious today. It's friday, lighten up.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

I never heard of her but she was one of the judges on the American Idols thing earlier in the season. Think she kind of had the tiff with the female judge.

yeah she's the cute dark haired one, Avril Lavigne was the other one

[BrAinPaiNt]

hahahahah, what the hell is going on here?!

Too many testosterone fueled internet tough guys getting into arguments and throwing pissing contests of late...thought I would throw in something to scare them and make them catch the gay. :p:

[Hostile]

ok point blank, do you think homosexuality is a choice and if so, why do you believe that to be the case?Ask me via PM so I don't get in trouble.

[zrinkill]

The military times did a poll back in 08...think it was 08 and the results were just over half of those were against repealing DADT. A few years earlier a Stars and Stripes poll had similar numbers.

By the way...those polls were taken from active duty military men so it is not far off the mark as just a little over half did not want it repealed.

Not going to get into any real arguments in this thread over this whole thing because frankly too many people are too set in their ways to ever take much into account and change their opinions.

Just wanted to put the above out there since you said you wanted a poll asking those in the military poll and to see if you would actually pay attention to it or just say you would...i'm a stinker like that.;)


I stated my belief on this stuff here.

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137290

and here

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135898

and here

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2577314 (http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2577314&highlight=gay#post2577314)

:p: Reading all that made me miss the old PF

[Hostile]

You are WAY too serious today. It's friday, lighten up.
See the members zone.

[BrAinPaiNt]

Brunette, kind of big eyes?

I think I heard her sing once, and that was on last year's show. I thought it was poor taste that she had a cape with one of the contestant's name on it.

I think I also watched a video that someone on here mentioned. Something about Las Vegas.

I am not interested in pop music. Strictly classic rock and country for this cowboy.

Yeah I think that was her...not the girl who had the cool devil horned hoody but the other one.

I never heard of her so and I don't follow most of today's pop music either so I was clueless about her.

[arglebargle]

Please stop the personal attacks and name calling.

Also Please leave religion and or politics out of the thread.

Thanks

Sorry! I will be-have. :)

[Hostile]

By the way, people are already offering to host a Prom for this girl and her classmates. From the Associated Press:I would if I had the place to do so.

I have nothing against her or her choice. I just don't think she should have pushed her will on others.

[Dallas]

Please dont invite threads like this to begin if you don't want legit opinion and discussion to happen.


Thanks

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Ask me via PM so I don't get in trouble.

you run this place and make the rules, I doubt you get into trouble :cool:

[zrinkill]

Too many testosterone fueled internet tough guys getting into arguments and throwing pissing contests of late...thought I would throw in something to scare them and make them catch the gay. :p:

I got ya .....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/zrinkill/jimmy.jpg

That oughta do it.

:D

[Hostile]

Don't agree. This was a response to the validity of taking a poll of the military to see whether a change should be made. Believe me, if Truman had taken a poll, there would never have been blacks serving in integrated units in the military at that time.

If you were to break down attitudes on things like this Prom debacle, I think you would see a marked difference in view based on age. There will be changes in store eventually, as the old farts die out. It's pretty much the nature of the beast. These things are rear guard actions...so to speak.

I bet the kids would much rather have the Prom, with tux, or with the female couple than not.

And one thing I did like, that hasn't been mentioned much: Her dad told her she had to head back to school the next to face up to the music. If you think it's worth the fight, you have to face the consequences.
On that, I totally agree.

[BrAinPaiNt]

I stated my belief on this stuff here.

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137290

and here

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135898

and here

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2577314 (http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2577314&highlight=gay#post2577314)

:p: Reading all that made me miss the old PF

I thought I might miss it some but truth is I don't miss it a bit. Turned everyone into idiotic jerks most of the time.

[BrAinPaiNt]

I got ya .....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/zrinkill/jimmy.jpg

That oughta do it.

:D

You sexy shim you.:p: ;)

[Hostile]

you run this place and make the rules, I doubt you get into trouble :cool:I respect the rules here. PM me if you want to know, or don't. I could care less either way. I won't convince you and you haven't got a snowball's chance in hell of convincing me.

[zrinkill]

I thought I might miss it some but truth is I don't miss it a bit. Turned everyone into idiotics jerks most of the time.

Thats what I miss about it .... :laugh2:

[jimmy40]

I thought I might miss it some but truth is I don't miss it a bit. Turned everyone into idiotics jerks most of the time.So we replaced it with Roy Williams.

[zrinkill]

So we replaced it with Roy Williams.

:bow:

[BrAinPaiNt]

So we replaced it with Roy Williams.

Something about WRs and QBs that brings out the best in us.:laugh2:

[tomson75]

yes, because I've never seen a gay baby.

Ha...but I know a guy named Gabe Abey!

[ethiostar]

yes, because I've never seen a gay baby.

How does a heterosexual baby act?

[TheCount]

See the members zone.

Well crap man, sorry to hear that. My prayers go out to Marty, hope the meds do the trick.

[Doomsday101]

Ha...but I know a guy named Gabe Abey!

I knew a girl named Abby Normal. :lmao2:

[BrAinPaiNt]

I knew a girl named Abby Normal. :lmao2:

Where's juke when you need him.:laugh2:

[ScipioCowboy]

How does a heterosexual baby act?

That may be his point, in some ways.

[Doomsday101]

Where's juke when you need him.:laugh2:

He knows Abby Normal? :laugh2:

[BrAinPaiNt]

He knows Abby Normal? :laugh2:

He is the one that found abby normal.

[jimmy40]

How does a heterosexual baby act?un gay.

[BrAinPaiNt]

That may be his point, in some ways.

Is a female baby that breast feeds gay?

Bada Bing

Thanks...I will be here all week.

[ethiostar]

That may be his point, in some ways.

Well, i missed the point then.

Is he saying that they haven't CHOSEN to be one or the other yet and therefore that is proof that homosexuality is a CHOICE?

[ethiostar]

Is a female baby that breast feeds gay?

Bada Bing

Thanks...I will be here all week.

:lmao2:

[Dallas]

Well, i missed the point then.

Is he saying that they haven't CHOSEN to be one or the other yet and therefore that is proof that homosexuality is a CHOICE?


You are correct.


Alex, tell him what he's won!!

[ethiostar]

You are correct.


Alex, tell him what he's won!!

Oh goodie, i haven't won anything in a long time.

[ScipioCowboy]

Well, i missed the point then.

Is he saying that they haven't CHOSEN to be one or the other yet and therefore that is proof that homosexuality is a CHOICE?

I don't know what his point, either. I was speculating.

My question is, how do you append any kind of sexual preference to an infant?

Our modern idea of homosexuality differs substantially from that of antiquity. The Greeks were far more accepting of the homosexual lifestyle than we are yet never viewed it as an either/or prospect. In fact, they viewed the romantic relationship between two men as a purer form of love because woman were not considered "equal" to men. This view is quite different from of our view that sexuality is determined by innate preference.

In my opinion, one ultimately chooses to be what they are, be it heterosexual or homosexual.

[Dallas]

Oh goodie, i haven't won anything in a long time.


You have won the following.

1 Pink Shirt

1 Box of Cloves

1 Rainbow sticker to be applied to your car or truck

1 6 pack Paul Mitchell hair conditioner

1 Parraffin Wax Heat Theraphy Bath treatment from a salon of your choosing

1 Copy of BOYS ONLY - The Biggest Baddest Book Ever

1 Norelco Body Groomer Kit

[tomson75]

You have won the following.

1 Pink Shirt

1 Box of Cloves

1 Rainbow sticker to be applied to your car or truck

1 6 pack Paul Mitchell hair conditioner

1 Parraffin Wax Heat Theraphy Bath treatment from a salon of your choosing

1 Copy of BOYS ONLY - The Biggest Baddest Book Ever

1 Norelco Body Groomer Kit

Um...should we be alarmed at your apparent knowledge of gay culture. You seem suddenly very in tune with your feminine side. :D


OH...and :laugh2:

The Paul Mitchell one was good....

[ethiostar]

You have won the following.

1 Pink Shirt

1 Box of Cloves

1 Rainbow sticker to be applied to your car or truck

1 6 pack Paul Mitchell hair conditioner

1 Parraffin Wax Heat Theraphy Bath treatment from a salon of your choosing

1 Copy of BOYS ONLY - The Biggest Baddest Book Ever

1 Norelco Body Groomer Kit

Well, you sure seem very well versed in this stuff. You go ahead and hold on to all of it.;)

[Dallas]

Um...should we be alarmed at your apparent knowledge of gay culture. You seem suddenly very in tune with your feminine side. :D


OH...and :laugh2:

The Paul Mitchell one was good....

:lmao2: I knew I was setting myself up. Its all good.



For the record, I googled that whole list.


FYI: Did you know Paul Mitchel now makes hair products for pets?

No lie.

I saw some last week at Bed Bath and Beyon....


Ugh...nevermind :laugh2:

[ethiostar]

:lmao2: I knew I was setting myself up. Its all good.



For the record, I googled that whole list.


FYI: Did you know Paul Mitchel now makes hair products for pets?

No lie.

I saw some last week at Bed Bath and Beyon....


Ugh...nevermind :laugh2:

Sure you did Dallas, sure you did. :cool: :D

[ethiostar]

I don't know what his point, either. I was speculating.

My question is, how do you append any kind of sexual preference to an infant?

Our modern idea of homosexuality differs substantially from that of antiquity. The Greeks were far more accepting of the homosexual lifestyle than we are yet never viewed it as an either/or prospect. In fact, they viewed the romantic relationship between two men as a purer form of love because woman were not considered "equal" to men. This view is quite different from of our view that sexuality is determined by innate preference.

In my opinion, one ultimately chooses to be what they are, be it heterosexual or homosexual.

I have read quite a bit on whether homosexuality is a choice or innate, I can't say i'm convinced one way or the other. But in the end, it doesn't matter to me. Religion is a choice and i don't like to see anyone discriminated based on their religion either.

[bbgun]

What Bob and an amorous pony do behind closed doors is nobody's business but their own.

[tomson75]

:lmao2: I knew I was setting myself up. Its all good.



For the record, I googled that whole list.


FYI: Did you know Paul Mitchel now makes hair products for pets?

No lie.

I saw some last week at Bed Bath and Beyon....


Ugh...nevermind :laugh2:

Lmao...funny you should ask.

I just used some the other day. No lie.

My dog tore her achilles tendon a while back, and she's rehabbing at my parents' house until further notice. She's a lot better off not being tugged on and swatted at by my 4 and 5 year old.

Anyway...I went over there two days ago to play with her. I gave her a bath and, sure enough, my mother had Paul Mitchell dog shampoo. :D

[CanadianCowboysFan]

I respect the rules here. PM me if you want to know, or don't. I could care less either way. I won't convince you and you haven't got a snowball's chance in hell of convincing me.

You mean couldn't care less actually.

and I'm not that interested, I know gay rights/issues do bring out the grizzlie protecting her young in you.

for me since their gayness has no effect on me, I figure live and let live.

[Hostile]

You mean couldn't care less actually.

and I'm not that interested, I know gay rights/issues do bring out the grizzlie protecting her young in you.

for me since their gayness has no effect on me, I figure live and let live.It doesn't affect me at all. I repaired a broken toilet for one of my neighbors today. He's as gay as can be. I have nothing against gays at all. Never have.

My answer to the question would not follow the rules here and I prefer not to break them. It is as simple as that.

[jimmy40]

You have won the following.

1 Pink Shirt

1 Box of Cloves

1 Rainbow sticker to be applied to your car or truck

1 6 pack Paul Mitchell hair conditioner

1 Parraffin Wax Heat Theraphy Bath treatment from a salon of your choosing

1 Copy of BOYS ONLY - The Biggest Baddest Book Ever

1 Norelco Body Groomer Kitis that Norelco groomer kit still from Norelco?:D

[CanadianCowboysFan]

is that Norelco groomer kit still from Norelco?:D

depends what one is grooming I guess

men groom all parts of their bodies now

[WV Cowboy]

People are free to choose if they have sex or not, and with who they have sex with if they choose to.

But, ... sex was not created as a toy or something to play around and experiment with.

Sex was created as a gift to husband and wife for the purpose of intimacy and procreation.

Any sex outside of that context is not what it was created for.

I know many people don't want to hear that.

That means man & man, woman & woman, adult & child, unmarried men and women, etc.

Mankind has perverted the initial intention of sexual union.

If this does not make sense to you, remember that every person that claims to be homosexual had a male father and a female mother.

And if male/male and female/female sex became the norm, the human race would die out in around 60-70 yrs or so.

Those two facts go a long way in explaining how things were created to be.

For a lack of a better word, we have screwed it up.

[ethiostar]

People are free to choose if they have sex or not, and with who they have sex with if they choose to.

But, ... sex was not created as a toy or something to play around and experiment with.

Sex was created as a gift to husband and wife for the purpose of intimacy and procreation.

Any sex outside of that context is not what it was created for.

I know many people don't want to hear that.

That means man & man, woman & woman, adult & child, unmarried men and women, etc.

Mankind has perverted the initial intention of sexual union.

If this does not make sense to you, remember that every person that claims to be homosexual had a male father and a female mother.

And if male/male and female/female sex became the norm, the human race would die out in around 60-70 yrs or so.

Those two facts go a long way in explaining how things were created to be.

For a lack of a better word, we have screwed it up.

I don't know if many people can respond to this post without violating forum rules regarding religious discussions.

But in regards to the bolded part, the same result can happen if the entire human race decides to be celibate for life or if every heterosexual couple decide not to have children. So, i'm not sure what the point is.

Also, some species of animals (other than humans) engage in sexual activities and not only for procreation purposes. And whats more, some of it is between species of the same gender. So, what does that says about why sex was 'created' and the 'unnaturalness' of homosexual behavior?

[daschoo]

People are free to choose if they have sex or not, and with who they have sex with if they choose to.

But, ... sex was not created as a toy or something to play around and experiment with.

Sex was created as a gift to husband and wife for the purpose of intimacy and procreation.

Any sex outside of that context is not what it was created for.

I know many people don't want to hear that.

That means man & man, woman & woman, adult & child, unmarried men and women, etc.

Mankind has perverted the initial intention of sexual union.

If this does not make sense to you, remember that every person that claims to be homosexual had a male father and a female mother.

And if male/male and female/female sex became the norm, the human race would die out in around 60-70 yrs or so.

Those two facts go a long way in explaining how things were created to be.

For a lack of a better word, we have screwed it up.

i think most people would disagree with that. sex is a natural urge for the purpose of reproduction (not saying every time you someone has sex they are trying to have a baby but thats why its inbuilt that we enjoy it). society has made it more than that but thats what it is, no different to other animals in that regard.

[tomson75]

I don't know if many people can respond to this post without violating forum rules regarding religious discussions.


This.

WV's post is clearly religiously biased (no offense), and not at all a scientifically sound theory. In fact... in this day and age, with our current technology, we could easily propagate our species for many generations without the institution of marriage....or without heterosexual sexual relations whatsoever. We most certainly would NOT die off in 60-70 years. It certainly wouldn't be as much fun, however...

...and while I agree with his sentiments for my own personal beliefs, I by no means feel that I have any right to project them upon others.

It's an opinion, and everyone is entitled to it, but I'm not sure it's welcomed on this forum.

Don't even get me started on CCF's belief that homosexuals have no choice in their sexuality.

It's shocking that such antiquated notions still thrive in light of the information available to us today.

[vta]

i think most people would disagree with that. sex is a natural urge for the purpose of reproduction (not saying every time you someone has sex they are trying to have a baby but thats why its inbuilt that we enjoy it). society has made it more than that but thats what it is, no different to other animals in that regard.

You seem to be agreeing with him. As in sex as mainly an instinctual means for procreation and not, as you put it, society making it more than what it is is. i.e. as he put it, not to be experimental and played around with.

I think we're far too creative a species not to experiment and play around and simply follow animal instincts. But I'm not sure revolving a lifestyle around how one interacts privately with another is really a great concept.

That's the problem with homosexuality as a 'lifestyle'. It's a self imposed constraint. Sexuality is based on the intimates and has no bearing on how you interact with people you don't have sex with, perform in your job and live in general.

[tomson75]

You seem to be agreeing with him. As in sex as mainly an instinctual means for procreation and not, as you put it, society making it more than what it is is. i.e. as he put it, not to be experimental and played around with.

I think we're far too creative a species not to experiment and play around and simply follow animal instincts. But I'm not sure revolving a lifestyle around how one interacts privately with another is really a great concept.

That's the problem with homosexuality as a 'lifestyle'. It's a self imposed constraint. Sexuality is based on the intimates and has no bearing on how you interact with people you don't have sex with, perform in your job and live in general.

Good post.

....and it should be clear that while sex is an inherent need for most species survival, and the urge for sexual behavior is inherited by all sexual species...there are some more advanced species, such as ourselves, that have developed a potent desire to learn/experiment that can help explain some behaviors that many here believe to be "deviant" or whatever.

Homosexuality is not limited to humankind. There are several other species that have been notably active in these ways....bonobo chimpanzees being perhaps the most interesting. They do some REALLY disturbing things sexually.

[hairic]

I'll just leave this here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fricke_v._Lynch

[Doomsday101]

I can feel this girls pain after all I too am a Lesbian, I have like girls and women since I can remember. Not my fault I was just born that way. :laugh2:

[ConcordCowboy]

She should have handled it the way Terri did.

http://blog.nj.com/entertainment_impact_tv/2009/05/large_justoneoftheguys.jpg

[BrAinPaiNt]

She should have handled it the way Terri did.

http://blog.nj.com/entertainment_impact_tv/2009/05/large_justoneoftheguys.jpg

http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/greg.jpg
Not Amused!!!

[DallasCowpoke]

I have like girls and women since I can remember.

Too bad the feeling's not mutual.

:muttley:

[Doomsday101]

Too bad the feeling's not mutual.

:muttley:

You would be surprised what a little cash will do. For goodness sake if Mick Jagger can hang with the babes anyone can if you got the cash. :laugh2:

[BrAinPaiNt]

You would be surprised what a little cash will do. For goodness sake if Mick Jagger can hang with the babes anyone can if you got the cash. :laugh2:

I bet Mick Jagger could do some serious motor boating.:laugh2:

[Doomsday101]

I bet Mick Jagger could do some serious motor boating.:laugh2:

Him and Steven Tyler can do some serious motor boating. Also both are well known Lesbian in their own right. :laugh2:

[daschoo]

You seem to be agreeing with him. As in sex as mainly an instinctual means for procreation and not, as you put it, society making it more than what it is is. i.e. as he put it, not to be experimental and played around with.

I think we're far too creative a species not to experiment and play around and simply follow animal instincts. But I'm not sure revolving a lifestyle around how one interacts privately with another is really a great concept.

That's the problem with homosexuality as a 'lifestyle'. It's a self imposed constraint. Sexuality is based on the intimates and has no bearing on how you interact with people you don't have sex with, perform in your job and live in general.

it was more the intimacy with the wife being the only appropriate context bit i was disagreeing with. as long as people are happy and not forcing it on others then fair play to them let them get on with it.

[tomson75]

She should have handled it the way Terri did.

http://blog.nj.com/entertainment_impact_tv/2009/05/large_justoneoftheguys.jpg

Correct me if I"m wrong, but didn't "Terri" have a beautiful set of boozangas?

[Doomsday101]

Correct me if I"m wrong, but didn't "Terri" have a beautiful set of boozangas?

Very nice, it was the best part of that B movie.

[Joe Rod]

Correct me if I"m wrong, but didn't "Terri" have a beautiful set of boozangas?

Yes. Yes she did! :)

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Good post.

....and it should be clear that while sex is an inherent need for most species survival, and the urge for sexual behavior is inherited by all sexual species...there are some more advanced species, such as ourselves, that have developed a potent desire to learn/experiment that can help explain some behaviors that many here believe to be "deviant" or whatever.

Homosexuality is not limited to humankind. There are several other species that have been notably active in these ways....bonobo chimpanzees being perhaps the most interesting. They do some REALLY disturbing things sexually.

and since we are descended from chimps/gorillas, no surprise

[ethiostar]

and since we are descended from chimps/gorillas, no surprise

Scientifically speaking, we did not descend from chimps/gorillas, we simply shared a common ancestor.

[vta]

and since we are descended from chimps/gorillas, no surprise

You are? Did you take one of those fancy DNA tests and find some ancestors?
Well that goes far toward explaining the extreme differences in our notions of civility. You poor ape, no wonder you feel the need to shave in different places these days.

[vta]

Scientifically speaking, we did not descend from chimps/gorillas, we simply shared a common ancestor.

Shhhhhh! This might have gotten good. ;)

[BrAinPaiNt]

I think this thread has ran it's course.

Closed before the whole religious debate of we did or did not evolve from monkey or god ensues.