PC gone too far?

[Bob Sacamano]

You ever heard of Archie Bunker?

He wouldn't get away with that today. Not on regular TV at least.

[silverbear]

telling black people to leave does not mean he doesnt tolerate black people.

Yeah, that's pretty much what it means...

[jimmy40]

he still wasnt wrong. and most retail companies do instruct their employees that. its called cost benefit analysis.I guess most not being Walmart, Target, Kmart, Sears, Macys, JC Penney, Lowes.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Do you think that's funny??

No wonder you don't have any problem with what that kid did... ethio tells you about being harassed by a group of teenaged skinheads, and you make a joke about it...

You're no better than that kid at the Wal-Mart...

Yup youre right. Bob hates black people. You have it all figured out, bravo.

[JonJon]

This entire argument and the fact that it is even being debated is absurd. If his statement was not racist, then any non-black person should be able to walk into a room full of black people, tell them to leave, and expect the black people to applaud him for saving their lives, right?

Nonsense...

[jimmy40]

because some people work in loss prevention and you're told out of store, out of bounds. plain and simple, touch them outside and no proof and hte store gets sued.yea, no proof.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I guess most not being Walmart, Target, Kmart, Sears, Macys, JC Penney, Lowes.

and you know this how?

[Bob Sacamano]

Yup youre right. Bob hates black people. You have it all figured out, bravo.

Damn, took you guys this long enough to finally figure it out?

Ethio, tell them about all the nasty, racist PMs I've been sending you.

[ShiningStar]

This entire argument and the fact that it is even being debated is absurd. If his statement was not racist, then any non-black person should be able to walk into a room full of black people, tell them to leave, and expect the black people to applaud him for saving their lives, right?

Nonsense...

should they be offended if that person was warning them the KKK was coming for them?

[ethiostar]

That's not what I asked. My question was, "should there be different societal standards for comedians and 'regular joes'?"

A sixteen-year-old jack*** on a PA system should be punished for being a sixteen-year-old jack*** on a PA system, not for making comments that are far less racially offensive than any one of the comedians I listed.

Within reason, yes.

[ShiningStar]

yea, no proof.

not even just proof, who lies better?

[ScipioCowboy]

Within reason, yes.

Even within reason, that's the very definition of discrimination.

[ShiningStar]

Even within reason, that's the very definition of discrimination.



define reason? I agree with you on this, but i want Ethio to define reason and WHO gets to define it?

[silverbear]

He claimed racial superiority? Again, racism isn't that big of a spectrum.

Ladies and gentlemen, Bob Sacamano, our resident expert on racism...

Yeah, Bobby, there is a wide spectrum of racism... there's folks who tell, and laugh at racist jokes, but deep in their hearts don't hate people of another color... there's people who aren't really comfortable being around people of another color, but would never think to do anything bad to those people... there's people who openly advocate hatred, even violence, against people of another color... and there's people who practice violence against people of another color... there are even subdivisions within those broader divisions...

And that lad is clearly on at least the bottom rungs of that ladder...

[Bob Sacamano]

define reason? I agree with you on this, but i want Ethio to define reason and WHO gets to define it?

Apparently the FCC.

[jimmy40]

not even just proof, who lies better?What does that have to do with anything?

[ethiostar]

Damn, took you guys this long enough to finally figure it out?

Ethio, tell them about all the nasty, racist PMs I've been sending you.

I don't think i can repeat any of those without getting this thread shut down.

[ShiningStar]

Ladies and gentlemen, Bob Sacamano, our resident expert on racism...

Yeah, Bobby, there is a wide spectrum of racism... there's folks who tell, and laugh at racist jokes, but deep in their hearts don't hate people of another color... there's people who aren't really comfortable being around people of another color, but would never think to do anything bad to those people... there's people who openly advocate hatred, even violence, against people of another color... and there's people who practice violence against people of another color... there are even subdivisions within those broader divisions...

And that lad is clearly on at least the bottom rungs of that ladder...



again, if we call everyone racists are we on leveled playing field?

[Bob Sacamano]

Ladies and gentlemen, Bob Sacamano, our resident expert on racism...

Yeah, Bobby, there is a wide spectrum of racism... there's folks who tell, and laugh at racist jokes, but deep in their hearts don't hate people of another color... there's people who aren't really comfortable being around people of another color, but would never think to do anything bad to those people... there's people who openly advocate hatred, even violence, against people of another color... and there's people who practice violence against people of another color... there are even subdivisions within those broader divisions...

And that lad is clearly on at least the bottom rungs of that ladder...

That's racism? Seriously dude.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Ladies and gentlemen, Bob Sacamano, our resident expert on racism...

Yeah, Bobby, there is a wide spectrum of racism... there's folks who tell, and laugh at racist jokes, but deep in their hearts don't hate people of another color... there's people who aren't really comfortable being around people of another color, but would never think to do anything bad to those people... there's people who openly advocate hatred, even violence, against people of another color... and there's people who practice violence against people of another color... there are even subdivisions within those broader divisions...

And that lad is clearly on at least the bottom rungs of that ladder...

hypocrite.

[silverbear]

Where's the intolerance? Maybe this is an instance of intolerance of another person's feelings, not necessarily based on their race.

Yeah, it's just a coincidence that all those people whose feelings he was hurting were black people...

Oh wait, not it isn't; he specifically singled out black people... so it WAS based on their race...

[rkell87]

Big difference between an employee and a LP employee.
what are you even talking about

[Bob Sacamano]

Yeah, it's just a coincidence that all those people whose feelings he was hurting were black people...

Oh wait, not it isn't; he specifically singled out black people... so it WAS based on their race...

Parallel that with the precise definition of racism. Not your hippy ****** version of it.

[silverbear]

:eek:

Holy ****. You've really gone off the deep end this time. So all those comedians, black and white, who tell racially-charged jokes are fundamentally "racists."

Yes, they are... and I'm personally guilty of that level of racism, because I laughed at Richard Pryor...

But that is a fairly low-level, non-malignant form of racism that I think is present in most people... the kid in question upped the ante considerably from that...

And FWIW, I'm not particularly proud to admit that I possess even that level of racism... perhaps that's why I'm so very revolted by what that punk kid did...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yeah, it's just a coincidence that all those people whose feelings he was hurting were black people...

Oh wait, not it isn't; he specifically singled out black people... so it WAS based on their race...

Because you base something on race doesn't make you a racist.

Keep going though. First it was the kid hates black people. Then Bob hates black people. Whos next?

[jimmy40]

what are you even talking aboutsee, you have no clue.

[Bob Sacamano]

Because you base something on race doesn't make you a racist.

Keep going though. First it was the kid hates black people. Then Bob hates black people. Whos next?

According to Silverbear, we're all inherently racist.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yes, they are... and I'm personally guilty of that level of racism, because I laughed at Richard Pryor...

But that is a fairly low-level, non-malignant form of racism that I think is present in most people... the kid in question upped the ante considerably from that...

And FWIW, I'm not particularly proud to admit that I possess even that level of racism... perhaps that's why I'm so very revolted by what that punk kid did...

So some racism isn't bad then? Apparently there is neutral nonmalignant racism. Is there good racism?

I love how you always try and force your worldview on others.

[ShiningStar]

According to Silverbear, we're all inherently racist.



you cant find flaw in that logic can we? dare we explore that we all arent racist? I think not, RACIST!!!!

[silverbear]

My problem with this episode is that WalMart was forced to come down hard on this kid due to outside pressure.

ROTFLMAO... so, WalMart dictates to the state of New Jersy who they charge with crimes??

They had little if anything to do with the charges the kid faces...

Ban him from all WalMarts, but to drag him through the court system over this. Really?

Yeah, really... he deserves everything that's happening to him... a man's actions have consequences, and if you're not willing to accept the consequences of a particular action, you shouldn't do it...

That's how my drill sergeant father raised me, and it's stood me well for 57 years now... here's hoping this kid learns that lesson from what he's going through now...

[JonJon]

should they be offended if that person was warning them the KKK was coming for them?
Of course not. But that was not the case.

[Bob Sacamano]

ROTFLMAO... so, WalMart dictates to the state of New Jersy who they charge with crimes??

They had little if anything to do with the charges the kid faces...

They did turn him over to the state. All because they had to "do something about it".

Yeah, really... he deserves everything that's happening to him... a man's actions have consequences, and if you're not willing to accept the consequences of a particular action, you shouldn't do it...

That's how my drill sergeant father raised me, and it's stood me well for 57 years now... here's hoping this kid learns that lesson from what he's going through now...

16, dude.

[silverbear]

And there you go not actually reading the posts. tisk. tisk.

Actually, I didn't say that at all. You're just getting confused. You can use racist humor and not be a racist.

Uhhh, no, you can't... you might not be a hard-core racist, but if you enjoy racist humor, you have a streak of the racist in you...

As I do, unfortunately... I just try to fight against it...

[ShiningStar]

Of course not. But that was not the case.



we dont know that. not all information can come out because hes a juvenile, and we dont know what it was all about, Wal mart jumped on it because they cant lose customers and money is more important to a business than anything else.

So it can be applied that a little bit more might be in place to make up for the apperance that wal mart loves its customers, or whoever happens to shop at one the most.

[rkell87]

see, you have no clue.
your right i have 'no clue' to what you mean by the difference in employee and LPemployee, sorry:rolleyes: . what i do have a clue about is that once the theif is out of the store you cant touch him and you can get sued which other posters have verified. this is what i thought we were talking about?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

see, you have no clue.

this is such a lame tactic. either explain yourself or shut up.

i googled lp and target along with lp and walmart and it came up with nothing.

I know what hes talking about. We have no idea what youre talking about.

[ethiostar]

Even within reason, that's the very definition of discrimination.

Maybe so, but the intent is not to harm but to make people laugh in a socially recognizable venue and from a socially recognizable source. Most comedians, those that are really good at it, can walk that fine line between funny and offensive. Most usually stick to mocking their own group and maybe then venture out to other groups. That way they usually establish trust but even then its not for everyone.


define reason? I agree with you on this, but i want Ethio to define reason and WHO gets to define it?

I guess you can have some agency make up some arbitrary demarcation about what is and what isn't allowed but thats not what i'm talking about. And in all honesty, i'm not interested in going that road. But comedians usually rely on their audience to gauge what is acceptable and what is not.

[ShiningStar]

Uhhh, no, you can't... you might not be a hard-core racist, but if you enjoy racist humor, you have a streak of the racist in you...

As I do, unfortunately... I just try to fight against it...



You and Bruce Banner my man, you both struggle hard.

[silverbear]

Really? Are you this dense?

It's pretty clear that Bobby doesn't think the kid did anything wrong at all... his initial reaction to the story was probably to laugh his *** off...

[jimmy40]

your right i have 'no clue' to what you mean by the difference in employee and LPemployee, sorry:rolleyes: . what i do have a clue about is that once the theif is out of the store you cant touch him and you can get sued which other posters have verified. this is what i thought we were talking about?verified by who? Other people that have no clue?

[Bob Sacamano]

Uhhh, no, you can't... you might not be a hard-core racist, but if you enjoy racist humor, you have a streak of the racist in you...

As I do, unfortunately... I just try to fight against it...

No you do not. There are black people who are smarter than me. Some who are more athletic than me. Others who are better looking than me (not many though). So seeing humor in a racist joke does not make me a racist. Racist joke as accompanying all racist jokes, yes, I crack up at white jokes too.

Just because you're a self-loather doesn't mean you have to take out that anger on everyone else.

[ShiningStar]

Maybe so, but the intent is not to harm but to make people laugh in a socially recognizable venue and from a socially recognizable source. Most comedians, those that are really good at it, can walk that fine line between funny and offensive. Most usually stick to mocking their own group and maybe then venture out to other groups. That way they usually establish trust but even then its not for everyone.




I guess you can have some agency make up some arbitrary demarcation about what is and what isn't allowed but thats not what i'm talking about. And in all honesty, i'm not interested in going that road. But comedians usually rely on their audience to gauge what is acceptable and what is not.



Yahh, not buying that either, they gauge based off money, you are not going to win over every audience every night or at every state. Some rules do apply. Some racism still exists, probably always will, but we dont need an agency telling us what is reasonable and what isnt, It will never take off.

Unless you are one of those that LOVES when the government tells you what to think, eat, sleep, wear, work, act, etc etc. I personally dont nor want an agency defining it for me.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

verified by who? Other people that have no clue?

Going for petulance, eh?

See you can act smug as if you know something that we don't and in the end no one cares. You have posited nothing other than you behave like a petulant child.

[jimmy40]

this is such a lame tactic. either explain yourself or shut up.

i googled lp and target along with lp and walmart and it came up with nothing.

I know what hes talking about. We have no idea what youre talking about.:laugh2: Loss Prevention.

[jimmy40]

Going for petulance, eh?

See you can act smug as if you know something that we don't and in the end no one cares. You have posited nothing other than you behave like a petulant child.find out what you're talking about before you act like you know something.

[ethiostar]

Yahh, not buying that either, they gauge based off money, you are not going to win over every audience every night or at every state. Some rules do apply. Some racism still exists, probably always will, but we dont need an agency telling us what is reasonable and what isnt, It will never take off.

Unless you are one of those that LOVES when the government tells you what to think, eat, sleep, wear, work, act, etc etc. I personally dont nor want an agency defining it for me.

What?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No you do not. There are black people who are smarter than me. Some who are more athletic than me. Others who are better looking than me (not many though). So seeing humor in a racist joke does not make me a racist. Racist joke as accompanying all racist jokes, yes, I crack up when people make fun of white people.

Just because you're a self-loather doesn't mean you have to take out that anger on everyone else.

Self loathing is unfortunately all too common in western society. I don't want to get into a religious discussion but I don't think that any of us are inherently bad.

[ScipioCowboy]

Maybe so, but the intent is not to harm but to make people laugh in a socially recognizable venue and from a socially recognizable source. Most comedians, those that are really good at it, can walk that fine line between funny and offensive. Most usually stick to mocking their own group and maybe then venture out to other groups. That way they usually establish trust but even then its not for everyone.


Your intent may not to be harm; however, you're holding two different types of people to two different social standards. That, by definition, is discrimination.

Furthermore, who determines the position of that "fine line between funny and offensive"? Just how many years does a person have to be comedian before he's shown he can walk that fine line? What about amateurs on open mic night?

[Bob Sacamano]

It's pretty clear that Bobby doesn't think the kid did anything wrong at all... his initial reaction to the story was probably to laugh his *** off...

After I snatched a white bedsheet.

[ShiningStar]

verified by who? Other people that have no clue?



You cant touch people out of the store, i know that at least applies in NJ with the big wigs, maybe if you work for a mom and pops, I dont know personally. Once outside, if you are not completely 100 percent, dont put the company at risk. SO yes, kids are very well informed they can do this stuff and get away with it.

Deal with it, we have a society that allows kids to get away with a lot of stuff and most of it is recent stuff and at least here in Jersey it changes fast and usually for the worse.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:laugh2: Loss Prevention.

I am still waiting how you know about the lp practices of any company at all. He clearly has a working knowledge of one store. Do you bring anything to the table?

[JonJon]

we dont know that. not all information can come out because hes a juvenile, and we dont know what it was all about, Wal mart jumped on it because they cant lose customers and money is more important to a business than anything else.

So it can be applied that a little bit more might be in place to make up for the apperance that wal mart loves its customers, or whoever happens to shop at one the most.

Seriously? That's the stance you are taking? You're only seeing what you choose to see here. And why do you keep arguing his age as if it is an excuse for his comments? The kid is 16, not stupid. He knew fully well what he was doing.

[Bob Sacamano]

I am still waiting how you know about the lp practices of any company at all. He clearly has a working knowledge of one store. Do you bring anything to the table?

What are you guys arguing about? That store policy is to not try to apprehend shop-lifters if you're not LP?

[theogt]

your right i have 'no clue' to what you mean by the difference in employee and LPemployee, sorry:rolleyes: . what i do have a clue about is that once the theif is out of the store you cant touch him and you can get sued which other posters have verified. this is what i thought we were talking about?The laws are a little more nuanced than this.

[silverbear]

Yes, racism exists. It just didn't exist in Walmart that day, only in your fevered imagination.

Pal, you simply don't know what was in that kid's mind when he did what he did... you can only judge him by his words... his words targeted a specific race, which is racist...

As I said before, he could have chosen to target "fat chicks", or "ugly people", or any of another, non-racial demographics for his "prank", but he didn't... he chose black people, a specific race of people...

That choice made his actions racist... I have no idea if he's a casual racist or a full-blown white supremacist, but he has some level of racism in him...

And because he chose to indulge that racist streak in such a public way, he now faces the legal consequences as provided by the laws of New Jersey...

I just don't see anything outrageous about that...

[rkell87]

verified by who? Other people that have no clue?
well lets see there is me, who you disagreed with in the first place then i explain it then you respond with nothing that was on the topic then three other posters who seem to have some knowledge of what I'm saying and agrees that I'm right.

i have at least given a real world instance and story to back up my claims while you have just disagreed with me and everyone else on the subject, so i would put you in the 'other people that have no clue' category.

[hairic]

lol at this thread.

BTW, statute info:

http://www.nj-statute-info.com/getStatute.php?statute_id=1576
http://www.nj-statute-info.com/getStatute.php?statute_id=1766

Actually most stores instruct their employees to not pursue people outside of their stores.They do this because they can't touch you without your consent, in the store or out of it. After you've completed a transaction, what you've purchased is your property and is instantly protected by your property rights. They have no cause to stop you to check receipts, frisk you, or whatever. This means you can walk right past the receipt checkers, even if the store didn't remove the thefty alarm protection deal. You'll be hassled by ignorant workers, but sometimes that can be fun and educational for the people witnessing it.

Being held up in store/not allowed to leave: They are liable for false imprisonment.
Tackled/grabbed: Liable for assault.

However, where you're wrong is that they do gain valid cause to stop you and hold you for the police if they witness you being a thief.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

find out what you're talking about before you act like you know something.

Well hes got knowledge of Best Buy. I just talked to this guy on my guild vent who works at Target that says your full of ****.

Again you have anything to add or you going to continue with this sad routine.

[silverbear]

:laugh2::laugh1:laughable. How so? They didn't sanction it. WalMart can't even catch every shop-lifter, how are they supposed to spot a 16 year old kid on a mission to mis-use the PA system and prevent it from happening? Holding WalMart responsible and thus damaging them for this, then idk, it's just dumb.

Guess you didn't read the quotes from the black patrons who DID leave the store after that "prank"... those were paying customers who didn't buy anything that day... and some of them will refuse to return until they can be convinced that WalMart WASN'T behind that announcement...

In addition, as has been noted elsewhere in this thread, WalMart has had some racial issues in the past, so any incident with overtones of racism is damaging to them...

[ShiningStar]

Seriously? That's the stance you are taking? You're only seeing what you choose to see here. And why do you keep arguing his age as if it is an excuse for his comments? The kid is 16, not stupid. He knew fully well what he was doing.

because in our country, it was than it wasnt, decided that anyone under 16 knew what murder was so you had to stop executing young adults or older children whatever you want to classify them.

Sorry but in todays society we coddle them to the age of 18 and in some states and in some its still an on going debate, i do believe florida is debating it, i know they were debating it about 2 cases.

But by law a child is a child til 18, and legally wasnt allowed to be pursed for criminal acts, and if they are for a while that record was sealed. Now its all up in the air and since MONEY plays the big part, well based on how much you bring in depends on the kind of justice you want to see.

YEs, if Wal Mart wants to show customers its out there protecting the black people they have people with knowledge to do it and companies and politicians and people of power do it every day. If Walmart was in a poor neighborhood and brought in 6 bucks and it was a smack at asians, does it garner attention?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Pal, you simply don't know what was in that kid's mind when he did what he did... you can only judge him by his words... his words targeted a specific race, which is racist...

As I said before, he could have chosen to target "fat chicks", or "ugly people", or any of another, non-racial demographics for his "prank", but he didn't... he chose black people, a specific race of people...

That choice made his actions racist... I have no idea if he's a casual racist or a full-blown white supremacist, but he has some level of racism in him...

And because he chose to indulge that racist streak in such a public way, he now faces the legal consequences as provided by the laws of New Jersey...

I just don't see anything outrageous about that...

One day you will realize that your myopic naive worldview is not the only one.

[silverbear]

And read teenagers' minds. That must have been one helluva school.

Permit me to note that in your defense of the kid, you seem to be doing the exact same thing... you seem to be quite certain that he doesn't have a racist bone in his body, in spite of his actions, in spite of the fact you've never even met him...

[jimmy40]

I am still waiting how you know about the lp practices of any company at all. He clearly has a working knowledge of one store. Do you bring anything to the table?
I was a LP manager for Sears for several years. I'm a manager for Lowes now.

[silverbear]

Do you seriously think the kid was saying that white people are better than black people?

I think he was saying he doesn't like black people... I think he was quite clear about that...

[rkell87]

The laws are a little more nuanced than this.
im sure they are but for us dum dum highschool age employees they say 'see theif in store, stop him', 'see theif out of store, call cops' they make it real simple and since a guy didnt follow this simple advice i know the store got sued, cause the guy tripped while running and hurt himself which he would have not done had he not been being chased, yes the store settled.

[ethiostar]

I guess you can have some agency make up some arbitrary demarcation about what is and what isn't allowed but thats not what i'm talking about. And in all honesty, i'm not interested in going that road. But comedians usually rely on their audience to gauge what is acceptable and what is not.

Your intent may not to be harm; however, you're holding two different types of people to two different social standards. That, by definition, is discrimination.

Furthermore, who determines the position of that "fine line between funny and offensive"? Just how many years does a person have to be comedian before he's shown he can walk that fine line? What about amateurs on open mic night?

I hold different types of people to different social standards all the time. A police man has a specific social standard, so does a teacher, a waiter, a lawyer, a nurse, etc....

I'm ok with a cop pulling over my niece to write her a ticket but i'm not ok with an average Joe doing it. I expect a waiter to take my order but i don't expect that from someone i run into in the streets. So, i don't get your point. Based on your definition, we all discriminate all the time.

As for your second point, i've already addressed it in my earlier post, see the bolded part above.

[silverbear]

Just show me where he disparaged black people or acted like he was racially superior...

"Get out of the store, black people"...

The definition of racism offered in this thread, even if it came from a dictionary, is fundamentally wrong; racism doesn't necessary constitute a belief that your own race is superior to others (though it often includes that belief), racism is simply disliking or hating people of other races, simply because of their race...

Singling out a race of people and ordering them off the property is a racist act...

Period...

[theogt]

im sure they are but for us dum dum highschool age employees they say 'see theif in store, stop him', 'see theif out of store, call cops' they make it real simple and since a guy didnt follow this simple advice i know the store got sued, cause the guy tripped while running and hurt himself which he would have not done had he not been being chased, yes the store settled.See hairic's post.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I hold different types of people to different social standards all the time. A police man has a specific social standard, so does a teacher, a waiter, a lawyer, a nurse, etc....

I'm ok with a cop pulling over my niece to write her a ticket but i'm not ok with an average Joe doing it. I expect a waiter to take my order but i don't expect that from someone i run into in the streets. So, i don't get your point. Based on your definition, we all discriminate all the time.

As for your second point, i've already addressed it in my earlier post, see the bolded part above.

Certainly you are correct.

But I think thte question here should be as it pertains to the law. It is completely sensible to think what the kid did as wrong.

However the law should afford equal protection to every individual.

[Bob Sacamano]

Guess you didn't read the quotes from the black patrons who DID leave the store after that "prank"... those were paying customers who didn't buy anything that day... and some of them will refuse to return until they can be convinced that WalMart WASN'T behind that announcement...

In addition, as has been noted elsewhere in this thread, WalMart has had some racial issues in the past, so any incident with overtones of racism is damaging to them...
My point is that to hold WalMart responsible after the fact is stupid. They had every right to be upset that day. But any day after and boycotting would be stupid because it was clearly beyond their control.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

"Get out of the store, black people"...

The definition of racism offered in this thread, even if it came from a dictionary, is fundamentally wrong; racism doesn't necessary constitute a belief that your own race is superior to others (though it often includes that belief), racism is simply disliking or hating people of other races, simply because of their race...

Singling out a race of people and ordering them off the property is a racist act...

Period...

Silverbear: 1

Dictionary: 0

:rolleyes:

[silverbear]

Um yes, and apparently (but unconvincingly) Theo agrees with me. Can we please stop trying to turn this kid into Lester Maddox? Jeez.

Again, it seems that in your world, you can only be considered a racist if you actively involve yourself in racist acts...

I find myself wondering if you really believe that simplistic take...

I don't know if this kid is Lester Maddox Jr. or not-- he might be, he might not be-- but for sure, he has racial issues...

Again, why did he pick black people as the victims of his "prank"?? Why not fat people, or ugly people, or dumb people??

[Bob Sacamano]

"Get out of the store, black people"...

The definition of racism offered in this thread, even if it came from a dictionary, is fundamentally wrong; racism doesn't necessary constitute a belief that your own race is superior to others (though it often includes that belief), racism is simply disliking or hating people of other races, simply because of their race...

Singling out a race of people and ordering them off the property is a racist act...

Period...

Right, because they believe that that race is beneath them and doesn't deserve their respect.

We don't know what this kid's mindset was, and he didn't say anything beyond telling black people to get out of the store. Which was an idle threat as idle threats can be.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

And those same people said that they knew WalMart wasn't responsible for it because store management immediately set about with damage control immediately thereafter, that very same day. That their reason for the boycott was until WalMart did something about it. Basically they were just outraged ignoramuses calling for blood.

That and Walmart is getting a TON of publicity for free.

[silverbear]

Seriously, people need to apply racism to actual racism.

Saying something to get a few laughs and actually believing what you say and applying it in every day life are 2, very different things.

I see, so your argument is the kid didn't mean what he said, that he actually LIKES black people...

I'd sure like to see some evidence to back THAT opinion...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Again, it seems that in your world, you can only be considered a racist if you actively involve yourself in racist acts...

I find myself wondering if you really believe that simplistic take...

I don't know if this kid is Lester Maddox Jr. or not-- he might be, he might not be-- but for sure, he has racial issues...

Again, why did he pick black people as the victims of his "prank"?? Why not fat people, or ugly people, or dumb people??

I don't see why people would ever argue with you on this. Its very obvious he did it because he hates black people.

[rkell87]

See hairic's post.
sorry, hairic?

[silverbear]

I am quite serious when I say it was probably because he thought it was funny.

And somebody who thinks that demeaning another race is funny is a racist...

And for fun:

bigot

Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: \ˈbi-gət\
Function: noun
Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot
Date: 1660
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

So I would say its a pretty big stretch to say hes a bigot.

Really?? I'd say that ordering all black people out of the store strongly suggests an intolerance toward black people...

[Bob Sacamano]

I see, so your argument is the kid didn't mean what he said, that he actually LIKES black people...

I'd sure like to see some evidence to back THAT opinion...

My argument is that just because you pull a prank or tell a joke directed at another race, doesn't mean you are a racist. It's your everyday mindset of feeling superior that determines such.

[rkell87]

I was a LP manager for Sears for several years. I'm a manager for Lowes now.
awesome you mind telling me where im wrong based on your inside working knowledge of loss prevention?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

And somebody who thinks that demeaning another race is funny is a racist...



Really?? I'd say that ordering all black people out of the store strongly suggests an intolerance toward black people...

its hatred AND intolerance. im not going to even bother defining intolerance as youve already made up your mind. its much more fun to make fun of you.

[theogt]

sorry, hairic?http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3314940&postcount=307

He laid out the law pretty well.

[rkell87]

And somebody who thinks that demeaning another race is funny is a racist...



Really?? I'd say that ordering all black people out of the store strongly suggests an intolerance toward black people...
or that he picked the group of people that it would upset the most to be the target of his joke and it had nothing to do with race, just what was going to garner the most attention

[silverbear]

I've been laughing at redneck jokes for years, not to mention Chris Rock's routines, so ...

So like most people, including myself, you have a small streak of racism in you... but my sense of you is that you ride herd on that streak, as I do...

I'm sometimes ashamed of myself for laughing at some of the jokes I do, but I find them funny...

Perhaps you should understand where I'm coming from here-- my paternal grandfather was an avowed and unabashed racist... though he loved me and my brother, and we loved him, I was always ashamed when he'd show that in public...

I'm pretty sure ol' Red had a sheet hanging in his closet... my Dad raised me differently, and I'm glad he did, but it may be that I'm more sensitized to white racism than some folks are...

And from my perspective, that kid may have thought he was being "funny", but he was just being hateful... I see nothing funny at all in what he did, and believe he should be punished by the law for it...

[jimmy40]

awesome you mind telling me where im wrong based on your inside working knowledge of loss prevention?you said if you get outside the store they can't do anything. You were wrong.

[silverbear]

Defend? More like I don't think he should be raked over the coals for this. I also hate when people want to paint every, little thing as being racist.

This was not a little thing...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

lol at this thread.

BTW, statute info:

http://www.nj-statute-info.com/getStatute.php?statute_id=1576
http://www.nj-statute-info.com/getStatute.php?statute_id=1766

Tackled/grabbed: Liable for assault.

However, where you're wrong is that they do gain valid cause to stop you and hold you for the police if they witness you being a thief.

Awesome, so these statutes are based on intent and foreknowledge? I am sure that will hold up!! :)

[FuzzyLumpkins]

you said if you get outside the store they can't do anything. You were wrong.

Well many stores are instructing employees so no he isn't. Can is relative.

[vta]

Ironic statement given that the only people sturring up the tempest are the anti-PC types. He was charged with a very minor offense.

Somehow I doubt it was the anti-PC crowd that decided this crap is news.
I was once charged with a minor offense - you never heard about until now. One can only wonder why that is...

Not that I care one way or the other about this kid, but if you don't see the obvious opportunistic move of putting this crap on the news, I'd say you're not being fully objective. It's not news, it's a minor incident being blown up to agitate racial perceptions.

The cess-pool of the Elizabeth, NJ county court house is full of much worse instances that you'll never hear of. This is cream puff.

[silverbear]

Os if I joke around with my friend who is Cheyenne and call him all kinds of things that are racial 'slurs' then we are both racists if we laugh?

Yeah... but again, I think a certain level of racism is found in virtually everybody... in most decent folk (and I think you'd probably qualify as "decent"), there's just a smidge of it... and because you and your friend understand that you're not deeply racist, such joking around isn't offensive...

And again, what the kid in question did goes FAR beyond that... would you repeat those same slurs in a room full of Cheyennes that you didn't personally know?? Somehow, I doubt it...

And for the record, I swap insults with friends of other races, but they're never racially-based insults... I just wouldn't do that...

[Bob Sacamano]

This was not a little thing...

It was as victimless as victimless crimes go.

[theogt]

Awesome, so these statutes are based on intent and foreknowledge? I am sure that will hold up!! :)Intent isn't as difficult to prove as you think.

[silverbear]

Demanding? LOL he's a 16-year old patron.

And of course, the other patrons of the store knew that when he came on over the loudspeaker...

[rkell87]

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3314940&postcount=307

He laid out the law pretty well.

ah i see i missed it, that seems about right could be a little different in texas, but i havent heard that you cant detain them in the store for fear of false imprisonment but i guess that might be a little easier to get out of with security cameras to prove that they were intending to steal but outside the store is a different story, it costs the store more if the employee or the theif gets hurt than the item being stolen thats why you cant touch them out of the store

[ScipioCowboy]

I hold different types of people to different social standards all the time. A police man has a specific social standard, so does a teacher, a waiter, a lawyer, a nurse, etc....

I'm ok with a cop pulling over my niece to write her a ticket but i'm not ok with an average Joe doing it. I expect a waiter to take my order but i don't expect that from someone i run into in the streets. So, i don't get your point. Based on your definition, we all discriminate all the time.

This is comparing apples to oranges. Teachers and policemen have certain legal and job requirements they must fulfill--requirements that are enumerated in great detail and established over lengthy processes. They certainly aren't determined by something so subject as "audience reaction."

Expecting cops and teachers to fulfill the roles for which they're paid is substantially different from what you're doing: You're establishing different limits on free speech for different types of people.

We should punish this kid for being a jack*** over a PA, not for what he said over the PA.

[theogt]

Somehow I doubt it was the anti-PC crowd that decided this crap is news.
I was once charged with a minor offense - you never heard about until now. One can only wonder why that is...

Not that I care one way or the other about this kid, but if you don't see the obvious opportunistic move of putting this crap on the news, I'd say you're not being fully objective. It's not news, it's a minor incident being blown up to agitate racial perceptions.

The cess-pool of the Elizabeth, NJ county court house is full of much worse instances that you'll never hear of. This is cream puff.The only reason I heard about this was because of the anti-PC crowd (i.e., Bob). And the only people that were talking about it in the thread before I posted were anti-PC.

[Bob Sacamano]

And of course, the other patrons of the store knew that when he came on over the loudspeaker...

They left because they were outraged..

[silverbear]

See bob he was one of the people that i was talking about.

I wear your contempt as a badge of honor... somehow, being insulted by a man who admits to regularly shoplifting, indeed who brags about it, doesn't sting...

[theogt]

ah i see i missed it, that seems about right could be a little different in texas, but i havent heard that you cant detain them in the store for fear of false imprisonment but i guess that might be a little easier to get out of with security cameras to prove that they were intending to steal but outside the store is a different story, it costs the store more if the employee or the theif gets hurt than the item being stolen thats why you cant touch them out of the storeYour best bet is just to let them go and call the police. Even if you're not afraid of legal ramifications, from a safety standpoint, it's usually the best idea.

[silverbear]

Calm down, Oprah.

I see, you have no intelligent response to my argument...

[vta]

The only reason I heard about this was because of the anti-PC crowd (i.e., Bob). And the only people that were talking about it in the thread before I posted were anti-PC.

True, but I have the funny feeling Bob isn't from NJ. It reached his awareness because some one decided to blow it up and it wasn't someone anti-PC.

[theogt]

True, but I have the funny feeling Bob isn't from NJ. It reached his awareness because some one decided to blow it up and it wasn't someone anti-PC.Bob trolls racist forums.

[Bob Sacamano]

Bob trolls racist forums.

I also sell bed-sheets. 99 cents a square.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I wear your contempt as a badge of honor... somehow, being insulted by a man who admits to regularly shoplifting, indeed who brags about it, doesn't sting...

Its not contempt so much as pity. I do not doubt youre earnest in what you say. You are so naive its sad.

[rkell87]

you said if you get outside the store they can't do anything. You were wrong.
all right ill bite what can i do? i did say they can call the cops, i didnt say but have been instructed to see where they go try to get a license plate if you can and try to remember everthing about them and their car i can for the police report and then review the store and parking lot security tape.


so what else?

[silverbear]

Funny thing is is that the thread has been quite civil and PG until Silverbear appeared. Would not be surprised to see it closed pretty soon.

Oh yeah, you guys were having a good ol' time bashing theo for sticking up for common decency...

But where exactly did I cross the line from "PG"?? I'm sorry if you don't like it that I find your defense of that ignorant little punk to be idiotic, but I do...

In fact, it has caused me to revise my opinion of you considerably... you probably shouldn't expect me to joke around with you any more...

[vta]

Bob trolls racist forums.

:laugh2:

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Oh yeah, you guys were having a good ol' time bashing theo for sticking up for common decency...

But where exactly did I cross the line from "PG"?? I'm sorry if you don't like it that I find your defense of that ignorant little punk to be idiotic, but I do...

In fact, it has caused me to revise my opinion of you considerably... you probably shouldn't expect me to joke around with you any more...

I am glad you pointed out Bob hates black just like the kid does. Thanks for that.

[silverbear]

I have always thought that you were naive but this is truly astounding. Keep on beating that soapbox.

What exactly was "naive" about the argument I made?? Be specific...

You and bobby both seem to be determined to ignore the substance of my argument, in favor of responses that really say nothing... all this suggests is that you don't have a substantive response...

Then again, I've come to expect that from you...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What exactly was "naive" about the argument I made?? Be specific...

You and bobby both seem to be determined to ignore the substance of my argument, in favor of responses that really say nothing... all this suggests is that you don't have a substantive response...

Then again, I've come to expect that from you...

Im sure you do.

Its the manner in which you always project your worldview onto others as if it is some universal truth. I have mentioned that several times. You are unable to see outside of your own little box.

I am sure that Bob really does hate black people though.

[silverbear]

bull****, of course he could have chosen any group but which group would cause the most commotion? it does not make him a racist

Anybody who singles out a race for insulting purposes is a racist...

And in Wal-Mart, at any given time you're likely to find far more fat chicks, or ugly people, than black people... so if it's the "most commotion" you want, they should be your targets... :D

[Bob Sacamano]

What exactly was "naive" about the argument I made?? Be specific...

You and bobby both seem to be determined to ignore the substance of my argument, in favor of responses that really say nothing... all this suggests is that you don't have a substantive response...

Then again, I've come to expect that from you...

That's all we really can do when you turn the definition of racism upside down on it's head. And accuse most everyone of being racist.

[rkell87]

Your best bet is just to let them go and call the police. Even if you're not afraid of legal ramifications, from a safety standpoint, it's usually the best idea.
yeah i really dont care about preventing a punk kid from shoplifting, my whole thing earlier was that its dumb that someone doing something illegal can sue someone stopping him from doing and win, and now someone telling me im wrong about it

[silverbear]

It could also suggest that he just doesn't like them.

I see, and not liking all black people isn't racist...

And just stop inferring that I'm OK with racists.

Gotta call it like I see it...

[silverbear]

unless the crime is misusing a PA system which he wasnt allowed to use the aregument is that he really did nothing ILLEGAL

Then why was he ARRESTED??

[Bob Sacamano]

I see, and not liking all black people isn't racist...



There were other options too. You see, I was trying to present all sorts of angles that the kid could have been using, but like your Vigilante Squad self, you chose only to focus on the most heinous one. Jimeny Jumping To Conclusions Cricket, man.

Gotta call it like I see it...

:rolleyes:

[silverbear]

And lets just say you would never get a sniff of being on that jury.

Of course I wouldn't... I'd be honest during questioning, and tell them exactly what I think of what he did...

So you really think there is no other motivation that the kid could have had other than to hate on black people?

I think that his words suggest his true motivation... and I KNOW that none of you defending him can prove that he's not a racist...

Oh and I kicked a dog today.

So, you're a thief, and abuse animals...

Way to claim the moral high ground... :D

[theogt]

yeah i really dont care about preventing a punk kid from shoplifting, my whole thing earlier was that its dumb that someone doing something illegal can sue someone stopping him from doing and win, and now someone telling me im wrong about itI don't think it's stupid. Generally, you don't have the right to physically contact another person, even if it's to prevent them from stealing.

[Bob Sacamano]

I think that his words suggest his true motivation... and I KNOW that none of you defending him can prove that he's not a racist...

Unfortunately the definition of racism just does not agree with you. You should try the discrimination tact. You might get a wee bit further with it, Jimeny.

[bbgun]

Chuckle... yeah, the state of New Jersey is completely out of line for charging this kid...

Only if they charge him with anything other than misuse of private property, which would be perfectly reasonable considering the facts at hand.

Get back to me when he's convicted of a felony, instead of pleading guilty to a misdemeanor after a plea bargain, and getting a slap on the wrist... the worst thing that's going to ultimately happen to him is being publicly humiliated, and IMO that's completely appropriate...

No, being publicly branded a "racist" by race hustlers and reckless white liberals would probably be worse.

I see, only those who lynch Freedom Riders are racists...

Yeah, that's what i said. :rolleyes:

It was a minor incident, but the only ones trying to turn it into a "federal case" are you and bobby...

Really? We're part of the left-wing state media that relentlessly pursued this molehill of a story? News to me.

you might want to wait and see what he's officially charged with before you go off the deep end... for that matter, you might want to wait and see what he's actually CONVICTED of, since the state sometimes overcharges with the full intention of plea bargaining down...

I already said he should be charged for impersonating an employee and scorned by his community. What more do you want? Blood?

Racial insensitivity is the foundation of "stark racism"...

Really? Could have sworn it was hatred. Keep lowering those goal posts.

Yes, they are... and I'm personally guilty of that level of racism, because I laughed at Richard Pryor...

And now we're laughing at you.

But that is a fairly low-level, non-malignant form of racism that I think is present in most people... the kid in question upped the ante considerably from that...

Right. Must have been all those N-bombs he dropped on those poor, unwitting, shellshocked shoppers.

And FWIW, I'm not particularly proud to admit that I possess even that level of racism... perhaps that's why I'm so very revolted by what that punk kid did...

People in racist houses ...

Pal, you simply don't know what was in that kid's mind when he did what he did... you can only judge him by his words... his words targeted a specific race, which is racist...

Sending a group of people, in fact any group of people, on a wild goose chase is "racist"? I think you just redefined the term, and not for the better. Far worse than this goes on in college admissions departments every damn day, yet the MSM can't be bothered. Lord knows what you'll be like when something really racist goes down.

As I said before, he could have chosen to target "fat chicks", or "ugly people", or any of another, non-racial demographics for his "prank", but he didn't... he chose black people, a specific race of people...

Same question I posed to Theo: had he pulled the same trick on women, would you label him a misogynist? Just trying to gauge how fanatical you really are.

That choice made his actions racist... I have no idea if he's a casual racist or a full-blown white supremacist, but he has some level of racism in him...

I see you're in the soul-reading business like Theo. Seeing as how you're soooo insightful, you'd be much more useful to me if you could pick tomorrow's NCAA winners.

And because he chose to indulge that racist streak in such a public way, he now faces the legal consequences as provided by the laws of New Jersey...

Sorry, not a big fan of viewpoint discrimination, which is exactly what this is. Unless the kid put people in danger, as in yelling "fire!," then the state needs to butt the hell out.

Permit me to note that in your defense of the kid, you seem to be doing the exact same thing... you seem to be quite certain that he doesn't have a racist bone in his body, in spite of his actions, in spite of the fact you've never even met him...

Well, if they dig into his past or his online activities and uncover more of the same, then I'll gladly retract. Until then, I'll classify this as a spontaneous act of youthful mischief.

"Get out of the store, black people"...

The definition of racism offered in this thread, even if it came from a dictionary, is fundamentally wrong; racism doesn't necessary constitute a belief that your own race is superior to others (though it often includes that belief), racism is simply disliking or hating people of other races, simply because of their race...

Singling out a race of people and ordering them off the property is a racist act...

Period...

True, assuming he were an employee with the gall to do exactly that. Instead, he's just a kid who tried to inconvenience black shoppers. If that's "racism," MLK is rolling over in his grave.

P.S. How is it that R2A's innocuous thread about "South Park" gets deleted yet this one rolls on and on?

[rkell87]

I don't think it's stupid. Generally, you don't have the right to physically contact another person, even if it's to prevent them from stealing.
and i think thats stupid, when you do something illegal your rights in the matter go out the window, not saying you can kill somebody for stealing but if you can detain the person within reason till the authorities get there so that the proper actions can be taken that should be allowed

[theogt]

I see you're in the soul-reading business like Theo.Quit the hypocrisy. You're the one that claims to know what the kid was thinking. You and SB both do.

[theogt]

and i think thats stupid, when you do something illegal your rights in the matter go out the window, not saying you can kill somebody for stealing but if you can detain the person within reason till the authorities get there so that the proper actions can be taken that should be allowedEnforcing the law is rightfully the domain of the state, not the people.

[Bob Sacamano]

Enforcing the law is rightfully the domain of the state, not the people.

You can make citizens' arrests. No more different than an employee apprehending a shop-lifter. It's just not advisable if you're not trained for that sort of task.

[Hoofbite]

WOW!

This thread is ON FIRE!

I want to know what has happened but don't feel like reading 10 pages at 40 per.

[bbgun]

Quit the hypocrisy. You're the one that claims to know what the kid was thinking. You and SB both do.

If I don't think his actual words or actions were racist, why on Earth would I think his motivations were?

[bbgun]

WOW!

This thread is ON FIRE!

I want to know what has happened but don't feel like reading 10 pages at 40 per.

I'm off to the land of nod. I fully expect it to be locked when I wake up around noon.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

WOW!

This thread is ON FIRE!

I want to know what has happened but don't feel like reading 10 pages at 40 per.

We have determined that Bob hates black people.

[theogt]

You can make citizens' arrests. No more different than an employee apprehending a shop-lifter. It's just not advisable if you're not trained for that sort of task.You should read into those laws before you try it. Chances are, you'll get screwed.

[vta]

WOW!

This thread is ON FIRE!

I want to know what has happened but don't feel like reading 10 pages at 40 per.

It very much resembles a certain little sub-section of this wonderful set of forums that has since been shut down...

http://nerdsquadron.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/fisticuffs.jpg

:muttley:

[silverbear]

you just keep proving how off the deep end your views can get.

Hey, if having common sense is "off the deep end", I'm guilty as charged...

yes saying something that COULD have helped one particular set of people clearly PROVES he is a racist.

People who say racist things tend to be racists... again, that's just good ol' common sense...

Of course he wouldnt want you on the jury you would be like others screaming racism when its just a sad prank.

Do pay attention, the jury I referred to would be a civil suit brought by WalMart for financial damages... and inasmuch as I know that black people left that property after that announcment, then I will have prejudged that he is guilty of having damaged them financially...

As for the criminal case, I have repeatedly said that what he did doesn't deserve jail time, that would be excessive... I'd think an appropriate punishment would be a year or so of supervised probation (supervised so that he has to undergo the indignity of submitting to random drug tests, which might not be a bad idea), and community service (preferably something that would force him to interact with assorted minorities and thus confront his problems)...

again, 16, made a bad choice, some people were offended

And for that, he should face the consequences of his actions...

Gee, what an OUTRAGEOUS notion...

but guess what they were offended when someone said good morning to them. if you talk to someone you are going to offend someone its clear as that now a days.

So, you're saying he should face no punishment at all for what he did??

Gotcha...

[Bob Sacamano]

would you guys just wait an hour or so before you tempt the mods?? Or at least until SB catches up? jeez

[theogt]

If I don't think his actual words or actions were racist, why on Earth would I think his motivations were?zOMG are you claiming to know what he was thinking!??!?!?!??!?!?!

He may very well have thought it was racist and was intending to be racist. I have no idea. But you think you know because you're the mind reader.

Wait, is it mind reader or soul reader? I can't ever remember what flowery language you use.

[Bob Sacamano]

We have determined that Bob hates black people.

I'm the 3 R's

a Raving, Rabid Racist.

[vta]

would you guys just wait an hour or so before you tempt the mods?? Or at least until SB catches up? jeez

:lmao2:

[ethiostar]

This is comparing apples to oranges. Teachers and policemen have certain legal and job requirements they must fulfill--requirements that are enumerated in great detail and established over lengthy processes. They certainly aren't determined by something so subject as "audience reaction."

Expecting cops and teachers to fulfill the roles for which they're paid is substantially different from what you're doing: You're establishing different limits on free speech for different types of people.

We should punish this kid for being a jack*** over a PA, not for what he said over the PA.

Did I say anything different in this thread?

Our exchange started when you asked me about 'societal standards' in the post below.

So, in essence, there should be different societal standards for comedians and "regular joes"?

Societal standard doesn't necessarily connotes legality. We have societal standards concerning beauty, as in societal standards of beauty. It doesn't mean that there are laws against being ugly. All my responses to you were based on the premise that we were talking about the same thing. I'm not talking about law, apparently you are.

Sorry we wasted our time.

[gmoney112]

and i think thats stupid, when you do something illegal your rights in the matter go out the window, not saying you can kill somebody for stealing but if you can detain the person within reason till the authorities get there so that the proper actions can be taken that should be allowed

I disagree entirely. The problem arises when physically detaining an innocent customer escalates quickly. You can not forcefully detain anyone suspected of stealing, allowing it would just be opening a bag of worms.

[rkell87]

Then why was he ARRESTED??
you can be arrested for nothing detained for 36 hours and not charged with anything, like i said what he was charged with is flimsy in my eyes

[silverbear]

if we scream everyone is a racist, are we all on level ground?

Nope... there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that very, very few people do not have at least some small degree of racism in them, because it's the truth...

But GOOD people recognize that small degree, and stand watch against it... BAD people indulge it... REALLY bad people indulge it to the point of practicing violence against people of other races...

Really, I don't know what's so difficult for y'all to grasp here... if you laugh at a funny joke that demeans another race, you have some racism in you... if you tell a funny joke that demeans another race, you have some racism in you...

But racism, while not a good thing, is not in and of itself a bad thing... ACTING on your racism is the bad thing... if you keep your racist impulses to yourself and try to treat people of other races decently, then you're still a good person...

It might even be argued that racism is a fundamental trait shared by all people... the challenge then is to try to rise above it...

[Hoofbite]

I see a common theme in this thread where people (or a person, whatever) cannot separate fiction from reality. Comedy and television from everyday life.

Pretty weak attempt at defending the kid by saying "pop culture does it".

There is a huge difference.

[silverbear]

weren't you the one that was just saying that he did it because he hated black people?

No, I said he did it because he's a racist... he might or might not hate black people, but he certainly thinks it's OK to make them the butt of his "joke"...

do you know what a hate crime entails?

Uhhhhh, when did I suggest he'd committed a hate crime...

To me, a hate crime is when one commits a VIOLENT, racist or homophobic act... but that's just my definition of the term...

What that kid did falls far short of a hate crime in my book... but it was a racist act...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Nope... there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that very, very few people do not have at least some small degree of racism in them, because it's the truth...

But GOOD people recognize that small degree, and stand watch against it... BAD people indulge it... REALLY bad people indulge it to the point of practicing violence against people of other races...

Really, I don't know what's so difficult for y'all to grasp here... if you laugh at a funny joke that demeans another race, you have some racism in you... if you tell a funny joke that demeans another race, you have some racism in you...

But racism, while not a good thing, is not in and of itself a bad thing... ACTING on your racism is the bad thing... if you keep your racist impulses to yourself and try to treat people of other races decently, then you're still a good person...

It might even be argued that racism is a fundamental trait shared by all people... the challenge then is to try to rise above it...

replace the word racism with sin and you have the basis for judeochristian ethics. i wholeheartedly disagree.

[Hoofbite]

Before first entering this thread I thought I was entering a thread about Bob's PC being on the verge of collapse and he was asking if he should just buy a new one or try to revive the one he has.

Little did I know this thread would be a jumping and bumping racist riot.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No, I said he did it because he's a racist... he might or might not hate black people, but he certainly thinks it's OK to make them the butt of his "joke"...



Uhhhhh, when did I suggest he'd committed a hate crime...

To me, a hate crime is when one commits a VIOLENT, racist or homophobic act... but that's just my definition of the term...

What that kid did falls far short of a hate crime in my book... but it was a racist act...

so what he did wasnt racist?

[Bob Sacamano]

yep, this thread is getting locked.

[silverbear]

A sixteen-year-old jack*** on a PA system should be punished for being a sixteen-year-old jack*** on a PA system.

Sounds right to me... but some in here apparently don't think he should be punished at all...

[rkell87]

I disagree entirely. The problem arises when physically detaining an innocent customer escalates quickly. You can not forcefully detain anyone suspected of stealing, allowing it would just be opening a bag of worms.
i see you are going with the innocent until route which is good but if proven guilty then it if the guy was detained within reason (which would be determined later like the theif being proven guilty) then it should be allowed because criminals should be punished.

[SLATEmosphere]

I probably would have laughed when he did that, because of shock value.

Doesn't make me racist.

[silverbear]

Yup youre right. Bob hates black people. You have it all figured out, bravo.

You don't see anything wrong with Bob making a freaking joke about ethio being confronted by a bunch of teenaged skinheads??

[Bob Sacamano]

i see you are going with the innocent until route which is good but if proven guilty then it if the guy was detained within reason (which would be determined later like the theif being proven guilty) then it should be allowed because criminals should be punished.

Most shoplifting arrests are made after they catch the person doing it on camera. I worked at a retail store and I was cool with the LP, so I'd sit in sometimes and watch him work the cameras on a shop-lifter, and then go out and make the detention. Basically all shoplifting stops have a bunch of surveillance of it done beforehand.

[SLATEmosphere]

You don't see anything wrong with Bob making a freaking joke about ethio being confronted by a bunch of teenaged skinheads??

Wah.

Ethio seemed to be fine with that comment and not a wound up tight ball like you.

[Hoofbite]

Nope... there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that very, very few people do not have at least some small degree of racism in them, because it's the truth...

I don't think this is necessarily the case.

Depending on how you classify "racism".

If by "racism" you mean simple categorization than I would agree but if by "racism" you mean hostile feeling towards people of another race, I would whole-heartedly disagree.

[Bob Sacamano]

You don't see anything wrong with Bob making a freaking joke about ethio being confronted by a bunch of teenaged skinheads??

And my joke was about him should of having turned the tables on them and kicking their little, white *****. Seriously, you already went into this thread with the mindset that whoever "defends" this kid is just as bad as him.

[silverbear]

That's racism? Seriously dude.

Yes, that's racism... that's believing deep down that there's something wrong, even dangerous, about other races...

And some of it can't be helped, even if you like to think of yourself as an enlightened individual... we can't help what our gut tells us...

Hell, I get nervous walking back to my car after a night game at Camden Yards, to the extent that I don't go to night games any more... and guess who I'd be likely to encounter in that parking lot??

Yeah, that's racist... I know it, and I hate it, but there it is...

I think maybe I'm a little more honest than some of you in here, and I repeat, almost all of us, regardless of race, have a little racism in us... the challenge for those of us who wish to be good people is to beat that racism back when it rears its ugly head...

[gmoney112]

i see you are going with the innocent until route which is good but if proven guilty then it if the guy was detained within reason (which would be determined later like the theif being proven guilty) then it should be allowed because criminals should be punished.

While I agree that if it's a certainty that they were stealing, as in 100% indisputable, their should be a reasonable method of detaining. But then again you don't know what some people are capable of when they're faced with the reality of doing a stint for burglary. There are some crazy people out there. Endangering your employees/possibly innocent bystanders would be a disaster, especially for some material goods. It's much safer and better for all involved to just let the police watch the cameras and try to get a license plate number as they leave.

[silverbear]

hypocrite.

Once again I ask, what exactly is hypocritical about what I wrote??

[Bob Sacamano]

Yes, that's racism... that's believing deep down that there's something wrong, even dangerous, about other races...

And some of it can't be helped, even if you like to think of yourself as an enlightened individual... we can't help what our gut tells us...

Hell, I get nervous walking back to my car after a night game at Camden Yards, to the extent that I don't go to night games any more... and guess who I'd be likely to encounter in that parking lot??

Yeah, that's racist... I know it, and I hate it, but there it is...

I think maybe I'm a little more honest than some of you in here, and I repeat, almost all of us, regardless of race, have a little racism in us... the challenge for those of us who wish to be good people is to beat that racism back when it rears its ugly head...

There's an irrational, racial fear that you may or not get jumped by someone from a different race. Then there's being uncomfortable because you just can't relate, or fear that you won't be able to. The 2 aren't mutually exclusive. That's my biggest problem, that not everything that could be deemed racist, is racism.

A joke or prank with racial overtones does not make one a racist unless that is part of his everyday thinking of racial superiority.

And I don't think banging a 16 year old through the court system, which is a fearful process in it's own right, in that instance is appropriate. I believe that is only reserved for youthful offenders who deal in drugs, break into people's homes or places of business to rob, and commit physical crimes that leave behind real victims.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yes, that's racism... that's believing deep down that there's something wrong, even dangerous, about other races...

And some of it can't be helped, even if you like to think of yourself as an enlightened individual... we can't help what our gut tells us...

Hell, I get nervous walking back to my car after a night game at Camden Yards, to the extent that I don't go to night games any more... and guess who I'd be likely to encounter in that parking lot??

Yeah, that's racist... I know it, and I hate it, but there it is...

I think maybe I'm a little more honest than some of you in here, and I repeat, almost all of us, regardless of race, have a little racism in us... the challenge for those of us who wish to be good people is to beat that racism back when it rears its ugly head...

I'm not scared of black people. I'm scared of poor people.

I realize this is a novel idea but just because you are one way doesn't mean everyone else is.

[gmoney112]

Most shoplifting arrests are made after they catch the person doing it on camera. I worked at a retail store and I was cool with the LP, so I'd sit in sometimes and watch him work the cameras on a shop-lifter, and then go out and make the detention. Basically all shoplifting stops have a bunch of surveillance of it done beforehand.

Yeah but even in retail you can't physically detain them.

[Bob Sacamano]

Yeah but even in retail you can't physically detain them.

What do you mean by physical? Because this guy would just tap people on the shoulder, tell them to put their hands behind their back, and he would slap those zip-ties on them.

I worked at another retail store and one of my managers pancaked a thief, no problem.

[silverbear]

Parallel that with the precise definition of racism. Not your hippy ****** version of it.

I reject that "precise definition" that was offered here...

One of the definitions that Merriam-Webster's offers is:

2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

Demanding that all black people leave that store was discrimination against those black people...

Part of the Cambridge International Dictionary's definition includes "unfair treatment of members of other races"... demanding those black people leave is treating them unfairly...

The American Heritage Dictionary's definition includes:

Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Again, the announcement discriminated against black people, based on their race...

Dictionary.com includes this:

intolerance of another race or other races.

The announcement was intolerant of black people...

Finally, Encarta offers this definition:

1. animosity toward other races: prejudice or animosity against people who belong to other races

Clearly, this kid demonstrated animosity toward black people...

So, it would seem that your "precise definition" wasn't that "precise" at all... it is within the context of all of these definitions that I call his actions racist...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Clearly, this kid demonstrated animosity toward black people...

No he didn't.

[gmoney112]

What do you mean by physical? Because this guy would just tap people on the shoulder, tell them to put their hands behind their back, and he would slap those zip-ties on them.

Really? I've never heard of that, you did that? I couldn't tell if you meant "this guy" and you were talking about yourself, or actually another guy, haha. My girlfriend works in retail and she tells me all the time about people that steal, and basically if they bolt for the door they can't physically stop them. They usually always get caught because the LP sees them and contacts authorities, but not in the actual store.

Were you/the guy a manager? I think as a line level employee making 7.00/hr I would laugh if I was asked to apprehend someone suspected of stealing. Sure I'll be glad to detain that possibly dangerous suspect! You guys don't even offer health insurance but what's a shanking between an employer/employee relationship?

[Bob Sacamano]

I reject that "precise definition" that was offered here...

One of the definitions that Merriam-Webster's offers is:



Demanding that all black people leave that store was discrimination against those black people...

Part of the Cambridge International Dictionary's definition includes "unfair treatment of members of other races"... demanding those black people leave is treating them unfairly...

The American Heritage Dictionary's definition includes:



Again, the announcement discriminated against black people, based on their race...

Dictionary.com includes this:



The announcement was intolerant of black people...

Finally, Encarta offers this definition:



Clearly, this kid demonstrated animosity toward black people...

So, it would seem that your "precise definition" wasn't that "precise" at all... it is within the context of all of these definitions that I call his actions racist...

The only thing you can really ply on this kid is discrimination. For 1 thing his announcement made no prejudicial determination of any kind of the black race, and 2, he wasn't in any position to be intolerant as he was a patron, not store management, and couldn't realistically see all those people out.

But yes, he discriminated between black and all the rest of the patrons.

[silverbear]

Because you base something on race doesn't make you a racist.

In this case, it most certainly does...

[rkell87]

Most shoplifting arrests are made after they catch the person doing it on camera. I worked at a retail store and I was cool with the LP, so I'd sit in sometimes and watch him work the cameras on a shop-lifter, and then go out and make the detention. Basically all shoplifting stops have a bunch of surveillance of it done beforehand.
i understand this i work in retail currently myself but what im saying is you should be able to stop them after the fact as well, just for an extreme example i can park way away from bestby out of site of the cameras walk in pick out 6 blu-ray movies like a regular shopper then put them in my hoodie and sprint out of the store before anyone realizes whats going and before the security guy can do anything sprint to my car which cant be seen by camera and im good, i think i should be able to be stopped if someone wanted to stop me

[Bob Sacamano]

Really? I've never heard of that, you did that? I couldn't tell if you meant "this guy" and you were talking about yourself, or actually another guy, haha. My girlfriend works in retail and she tells me all the time about people that steal, and basically if they bolt for the door they can't physically stop them. They usually always get caught because the LP sees them and contacts authorities, but not in the actual store.

Were you/the guy a manager? I think as a line level employee making 7.00/hr I would laugh if I was asked to apprehend someone suspected of stealing. Sure I'll be glad to detain that possibly dangerous suspect! You guys don't even offer health insurance but what's a shanking between an employer/employee relationship?

He was LP and he was making the detentions. Sorry for the confusion.

[silverbear]

According to Silverbear, we're all inherently racist.

No matter what race we are...

[silverbear]

So some racism isn't bad then? Apparently there is neutral nonmalignant racism.

It can be nonmalignant, yes...

Is there good racism?

No, no level of racism is "good"... it's something we should recognize in ourselves, and guard against...

I love how you always try and force your worldview on others.

Hey, all I'm doing is expressing my sincere opinion... I believe I have the right to do so in here...

I mean, I know you wish there was some way you could stop that, but I have to think that first they'd want to get rid of the admitted thieves and animal abusers...

[silverbear]

They did turn him over to the state. All because they had to "do something about it".

There was nothing in the article I read about the arrest that suggested WalMart found the kid and turned him over to the law... indeed, there was nothing to suggest they had anything to do with his arrest at all... all I read was that they "cooperated with the investigation"...

Perhaps you could provide some documentation of your assertion that WalMart "turned him over to the state"??

16, dude.

My Dad held me to those standards when I was 16... his age does not justify what he did, period...

And FWIW, he is being charged in juvenile court...

[rkell87]

While I agree that if it's a certainty that they were stealing, as in 100% indisputable, their should be a reasonable method of detaining. But then again you don't know what some people are capable of when they're faced with the reality of doing a stint for burglary. There are some crazy people out there. Endangering your employees/possibly innocent bystanders would be a disaster, especially for some material goods. It's much safer and better for all involved to just let the police watch the cameras and try to get a license plate number as they leave.
i agree but if it gets out of hand then you let him go and hope you slowed him down enough to be caught but the problem is some people wouldnt just let the guy go when it gets to a certain point but i believe that this would mostly be an exception not a common thing because there are only gonna be so many times when you actually see a guy walk out with stuff and out of those times only so many employees would be willing to go after him and i think the crazy do anything to not go to jail guy would meet the determined not to let the guy get away employee on rare occasion

[silverbear]

Just because you're a self-loather doesn't mean you have to take out that anger on everyone else.

Recognizing your flaws and striving to correct them does not make you a "self-loather"... truth is, I'm just about my favorite person...

[silverbear]

One day you will realize that your myopic naive worldview is not the only one.

And one day you'll realize that I never suggested mine was the only worldview... I simply believe that mine is the RIGHT one, and have no reluctance expressing it...

Then, one day you might realize that I couldn't possibly care less what you think about that, or me...

[rkell87]

What do you mean by physical? Because this guy would just tap people on the shoulder, tell them to put their hands behind their back, and he would slap those zip-ties on them.

I worked at another retail store and one of my managers pancaked a thief, no problem.
but in the store right? my whole thing with jimmy is that once they are out the door you can touch them

[silverbear]

My point is that to hold WalMart responsible after the fact is stupid. They had every right to be upset that day. But any day after and boycotting would be stupid because it was clearly beyond their control.

I agree 100 per cent, but given their racial problems in the past, some black folk will undoubtedly use this as another excuse not to patronize them... and the black people who left the store that day most certainly didn't spend the money in there they intended to...

WalMart is in no way responsible for this incident, but they will suffer some financial repercussions from it, and further damage to their already battered reputation...

[silverbear]

Silverbear: 1

Dictionary: 0

:rolleyes:

Read further, and you'll see where I offer a number of definitions from other dictionaries that coincide with mine... the definition that was offered here was far more restrictive than the one that is the consensus, which includes any act of racial discrimination...

But you know, I even disagree with THOSE definitions on at least one level, because they all seem to refer to discrimination against people of "other" races... I think it is entirely possible for, say, a black people to hold racist views towards others of his own race...

[silverbear]

Right, because they believe that that race is beneath them and doesn't deserve their respect.

And what respect did that kid show black people??

We don't know what this kid's mindset was, and he didn't say anything beyond telling black people to get out of the store. Which was an idle threat as idle threats can be.

It wasn't a threat at all, it was just an INSULT...

A racist insult...

[rkell87]

I agree 100 per cent, but given their racial problems in the past, some black folk will undoubtedly use this as another excuse not to patronize them... and the black people who left the store that day most certainly didn't spend the money in there they intended to...

WalMart is in no way responsible for this incident, but they will suffer some financial repercussions from it, and further damage to their already battered reputation...
which brings me back to another point i mentioned he could have chose to ask black people to leave because he knew of walmarts troubles with them and didnt have anything against black people but against walmart and choose black people to be the butt of his prank because they already had issues with walmart in the first place.

[silverbear]

My argument is that just because you pull a prank or tell a joke directed at another race, doesn't mean you are a racist.

And my response is that's EXACTLY what it means... it's being intolerant toward a specific race, and as I have demonstrated in numerous definitions, intolerance toward a specific race or races is one of the basic characteristics of racism...

[silverbear]

or that he picked the group of people that it would upset the most to be the target of his joke and it had nothing to do with race, just what was going to garner the most attention

So, he chose black people because it would upset them the most??

And that's NOT racist?? Deliberately targeting another race for a public insult isn't racism??

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Read further, and you'll see where I offer a number of definitions from other dictionaries that coincide with mine... the definition that was offered here was far more restrictive than the one that is the consensus, which includes any act of racial discrimination...

But you know, I even disagree with THOSE definitions on at least one level, because they all seem to refer to discrimination against people of "other" races... I think it is entirely possible for, say, a black people to hold racist views towards others of his own race...

You clearly need to read the definitions of the words in the definitions that you are referring to. You suck at semantics.

And on that note im going to bed.

[silverbear]

It was as victimless as victimless crimes go.

The key word there being "crime"...

And there WAS a victim-- WalMart... they lost money that day because of that kid's "prank"...

Once again, I'm not suggesting he should go to prison for this prank, but you seem to think the law shouldn't do anything at all to him... guess you'd just give him a pat on the head and say "don't do that again, son"...

Yeah, that'll teach him...

[rkell87]

Read further, and you'll see where I offer a number of definitions from other dictionaries that coincide with mine... the definition that was offered here was far more restrictive than the one that is the consensus, which includes any act of racial discrimination...

But you know, I even disagree with THOSE definitions on at least one level, because they all seem to refer to discrimination against people of "other" races... I think it is entirely possible for, say, a black people to hold racist views towards others of his own race...
that still falls under racial prejudice. its not limited to races that you do not belong to

[silverbear]

They left because they were outraged..

Yes, they did... but my point is they didn't know he was only 16, which was your argument... they didn't even know that he wasn't a WalMart official... so that response you offered made zero sense...

He DID demand that the black people leave the WalMart... he had no AUTHORITY to make such a demand, so it was a toothless demand, but it was still a demand on his part...

[silverbear]

Its not contempt so much as pity.

Oh dear, I'm being pitied by a sneak thief... whatever will I do now??

[rkell87]

So, he chose black people because it would upset them the most??

And that's NOT racist?? Deliberately targeting another race for a public insult isn't racism??
no because in the instance i provide he targeted that race because walmart had already upset that race not because he had any ill feeling toward that race, or feeling one way or the other it would be strategic not malicious

[silverbear]

I am glad you pointed out Bob hates black just like the kid does.

Show me where I said that...

All I said was that it was pretty contemptible for him to laugh at ethio's story about being accosted by a gang of teenaged skinheads...

Yeah, I wonder about somebody who finds a story like that funny...

But hey, you go right ahead and distort what I'm saying, in a feeble effort to make something resembling a point...

[CliffnMesquite]

But. What if the offender had a premonition of disaster and only wanted to save the Blacks in the store? Then it's reverse descrimnation!

[silverbear]

Im sure you do.

Its the manner in which you always project your worldview onto others as if it is some universal truth. I have mentioned that several times. You are unable to see outside of your own little box.

And how exactly is that "naive"?? Arrogant perhaps, but I see no naivete...

My worldview has been arrived at as a result of long and careful thought, factoring in lots of differing viewpoints... it may or may not be right, but it is not a thoughtless worldview...

I guess you just have a hard time expressing yourself with any precision...

[silverbear]

That's all we really can do when you turn the definition of racism upside down on it's head.

Actually, you're the one who tried very hard to do that... so I thoughtfully shared a number of definitions from a number of reputable dictionaries that reinforced my personal definition...

And accuse most everyone of being racist.

That wasn't an accusation, merely an observation on basic human nature... I firmly believe it to be true...

[rkell87]

Yes, they did... but my point is they didn't know he was only 16, which was your argument... they didn't even know that he wasn't a WalMart official... so that response you offered made zero sense...

He DID demand that the black people leave the WalMart... he had no AUTHORITY to make such a demand, so it was a toothless demand, but it was still a demand on his part...
lol bob argued throughout the thread that he had no authority to make the demand so yall agree!:laugh2:
also i dont see where you are going with the statement, we know he made the demand?:confused: lol

[rkell87]

But. What if the offender had a premonition of disaster and only wanted to save the Blacks in the store? Then it's reverse descrimnation!
lol there is no such thing as reverse discrimination, that would be fairness! lol. really it would be discrimination against the rest of the people in the store.

[silverbear]

Unfortunately the definition of racism just does not agree with you.

Yes, it does... racism is racial intolerance, and ordering those people out of the store was an act of intolerance...

[rkell87]

now i know how silver got his 20000 posts lol

[silverbear]

Only if they charge him with anything other than misuse of private property, which would be perfectly reasonable considering the facts at hand.

Apparently the state of New Jersey thinks the facts of this case warrant other charges... perhaps you should take that up with them...

Yeah, that's what i said. :rolleyes:

That's the clear impression you left...

I already said he should be charged for impersonating an employee and scorned by his community. What more do you want? Blood?

I believe I've answered that a number of times now...

Really? Could have sworn it was hatred. Keep lowering those goal posts.

No, simple racial intolerance is racism, too... hatred is just a more virulent form of the disease...

That seems to be your problem, you don't really understand what racism is...

Sending a group of people, in fact any group of people, on a wild goose chase is "racist"?

Targeting one racial group for a public insult is a racist act...

I think you just redefined the term, and not for the better.

And yet, I've shown a number of different dictionary definitions that coincide with that "redefinition"...

Sorry if you have a problem with THEIR definition of the word, but in the end, it's your problem...

Sorry, not a big fan of viewpoint discrimination, which is exactly what this is. Unless the kid put people in danger, as in yelling "fire!," then the state needs to butt the hell out.

Look at you, telling the state of New Jersey how they should enforce their laws... how completely arrogant of you...

Until then, I'll classify this as a spontaneous act of youthful mischief.

And in the end, that's how he'll be punished... so why exactly did you get your panties in a wad??

I jumped into this thread because from the start, it seemed a lot of you seemed to be arguing that he shouldn't face any punishment at all for what he did... I find that stance to be quite incomprehensible...

Now, from there the dialogue morphed into a broader discussion of what constitutes racism in general, and it seems that a lot of you don't agree with my take on that... inasmuch as I do not depend on the approval of this message board for my general sense of self-esteem, I reckon I can live with standing outside the mainstream on this one...

[silverbear]

Quit the hypocrisy. You're the one that claims to know what the kid was thinking. You and SB both do.

Hey, all I can do is judge him by his words...

[silverbear]

I'm the 3 R's

a Raving, Rabid Racist.

Actually, I'd like to think you aren't... I just know that your laughing at ethios story about the skinheads struck me as really, really odd... there was nothing comical at all about that story...

What I really suspect is that you have in the past had some problems with somebody accusing you of racism, so now you get up on a soapbox every time somebody else is accused of it... which is why I believe you started this thread...

I can say that I thought you were better than you've showed in this thread, and that I'm really disappointed in you... as I said, I'll find it difficult to joke around with you in the future...

[silverbear]

you can be arrested for nothing detained for 36 hours and not charged with anything, like i said what he was charged with is flimsy in my eyes

How sad that you're not in law enforcement in New Jersey, so that you could have helped avoid this outrage...

I think that a lot of times, the state "overcharges", with the full intention of plea bargaining down to a lesser plea... I rather suspect that's what's going on here... I don't think he'll ever be convicted of "bias intimidation"; there was plenty of bias, but no real "intimidation"...

[silverbear]

replace the word racism with sin and you have the basis for judeochristian ethics.

To me, racism is a sin...

i wholeheartedly disagree.

What a surprise, the shopliting animal abuser rejects judaeochristian ethics...

[silverbear]

so what he did wasnt racist?

Are you trying to be obtuse?? I CLEARLY said that what he did didn't rise to a level of a hate crime, but it was a racist act...

Not all racist acts are hate crimes... indeed, not all of them are crimes at all...

[silverbear]

Wah.

Ethio seemed to be fine with that comment and not a wound up tight ball like you.


It may not have bothered him, but it bothered me... it seemed like an entirely inappropriate reaction to ethio's post...

But maybe it was just me not appreciating an warped sense of humor...

[Hoofbite]

To me, racism is a sin...



What a surprise, the shopliting animal abuser rejects judaeochristian ethics...

Fill me in.

[silverbear]

I don't think this is necessarily the case.

Depending on how you classify "racism".

If by "racism" you mean simple categorization than I would agree but if by "racism" you mean hostile feeling towards people of another race, I would whole-heartedly disagree.

I don't think that racism necessarily involves hostility... it might be more fear, for example...

[silverbear]

And my joke was about him should of having turned the tables on them and kicking their little, white *****. Seriously, you already went into this thread with the mindset that whoever "defends" this kid is just as bad as him.

Well, I do consider what he did to be indefensible, and I wonder about people who are trying to justify it...

It was an ugly, idiotic stunt, and he deserves to be punished for it...

But like I said, thinking about what you said a little more, it might have just been you being you, trying to be a smart*** and sometimes, when we work too hard at that, some of our efforts come off a bit wrong... being a smart*** myself, I've been there and done that...

But yeah, what you said struck me as really wrong... there's nothing funny about an innocent black man being threatened by a bunch of skinheads, not to me anyway...

[silverbear]

There's an irrational, racial fear that you may or not get jumped by someone from a different race. Then there's being uncomfortable because you just can't relate, or fear that you won't be able to. The 2 aren't mutually exclusive. That's my biggest problem, that not everything that could be deemed racist, is racism.

I guess I just think that racism is a broader term, a broader problem, than you do...

But as long as you're not vicitimizing other people with your deep-seated, uncontrollable racial attitudes, then in my mind you're not a practicing racist...

The key word there being "practicing"...

And I do understand that often racism is thrown around as an excuse, that the accusation is overused...

A joke or prank with racial overtones does not make one a racist

I fundamentally disagree with that, and like I said, I've been guilty of it myself... I'm not going holier than thou on anybody here...

And I don't think banging a 16 year old through the court system, which is a fearful process in it's own right, in that instance is appropriate

I do... I think that it's the best way to forcefully drive home that what he did was really, really wrong...

And it was... now, I might swing over to your side if they throw him in jail or something... but make him sweat some, then put him on probation and make him perform community service...

[silverbear]

I'm not scared of black people. I'm scared of poor people.

Hey, that's legitimate enough... poor people are often desperate, and desperate people can be dangerous...

I realize this is a novel idea but just because you are one way doesn't mean everyone else is.

Again, when did I suggest that was the case??

You keep acting as if I'm trying to force people to believe the way I do, when all I'm doing is forcefully defending what I believe to be right...

[silverbear]

The only thing you can really ply on this kid is discrimination.

Look closely, and you might notice that a number of the definitions of the word "racism" that I offered included the word "discrimination"...

This should tell you that discrimination is a central element of racism...

So, when you say the kid engaged in discrimination but not racism, you seem to be trying to separate the two, when most wordsmiths consider the linked...

But yes, he discriminated between black and all the rest of the patrons.

Which was a racist act on his part...

[silverbear]

which brings me back to another point i mentioned he could have chose to ask black people to leave because he knew of walmarts troubles with them

Oh yeah, I'm quite sure this 16 year old kid was up on the litigation history of WalMart...

ROTFLMAO...

[silverbear]

lol bob argued throughout the thread that he had no authority to make the demand so yall agree!:laugh2:

Whether or not he had the authority is quite irrelevant... the patrons didn't know he was not a WalMart official...

also i dont see where you are going with the statement, we know he made the demand?:confused: lol

He told the black patrons to leave the store...

[rkell87]

Well, I do consider what he did to be indefensible, and I wonder about people who are trying to justify it...

It was an ugly, idiotic stunt, and he deserves to be punished for it...

But like I said, thinking about what you said a little more, it might have just been you being you, trying to be a smart*** and sometimes, when we work too hard at that, some of our efforts come off a bit wrong... being a smart*** myself, I've been there and done that...

But yeah, what you said struck me as really wrong... there's nothing funny about an innocent black man being threatened by a bunch of skinheads, not to me anyway...
i think we all agree but what we dont agree with is that what he did was illegal(yes i relize he was charged but really, c'mon) and that this should be handled by the parents not the court system and for me at least i view it as a waste of my taxt dollars

[silverbear]

now i know how silver got his 20000 posts lol

Well, there were a lot of draft posts, too... :D

[silverbear]

Fill me in.

Earlier in the thread, he admitted to shoplifting beer as a youth... then, in a response to me that goes back to our arguments over the Michael Vick episode, he said something about kicking a dog today...

I really didn't take him serious about the latter, to tell you the truth... :D

[rkell87]

Whether or not he had the authority is quite irrelevant... the patrons didn't know he was not a WalMart official...
anybody with half a brain would be able to figure out it wasnt



He told the black patrons to leave the store...
no one is debating this

[silverbear]

i think we all agree but what we dont agree with is that what he did was illegal(yes i relize he was charged but really, c'mon) and that this should be handled by the parents not the court system and for me at least i view it as a waste of my taxt dollars

It think it's perfectly appropriate for him to face charges for what he did... mostly because what he did harmed WalMart... this was no "victimless crime"...

It was a childish, thoughtless stunt, but one that had ramifications, and it should have repercussions too...

Frankly, I wouldn't trust his parents to handle this, if they didn't do a better job of raising him than that... my Dad would have put a hurting on me if I did something that idiotic...

[rkell87]

Oh yeah, I'm quite sure this 16 year old kid was up on the litigation history of WalMart...

ROTFLMAO...
you never know...the point is you dont know, therefore you dont know if he was trying to be racist because he is racist, trying to be racist to be funny, just trying to be funny and ended up saying something racist, or had other motives all together.

[rkell87]

It think it's perfectly appropriate for him to face charges for what he did... mostly because what he did harmed WalMart... this was no "victimless crime"...

It was a childish, thoughtless stunt, but one that had ramifications, and it should have repercussions too...

Frankly, I wouldn't trust his parents to handle this, if they didn't do a better job of raising him than that... my Dad would have put a hurting on me if I did something that idiotic...
some kids are just stupid and no amount of parenting in the world is gonna keep them from doing stupid things, at the same time a little slap on the wrist from the court system most likely wont do anything either. boneheads are always gonna be boneheads

[rkell87]

alright im going to bed my guess is sarge will lock this when he gets up.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i24/smileychick003/ist2_4266355-piece-of-string.jpg

[gmoney112]

I think it's funny. I'm not racist at all. If a black guy got on the intercom and said all the white people please leave i'd laugh. Not necessarily at the humor of it but more because they're idiots. Little things like that in life amuse me, sue me.

People are too sensitive. It's 2010, get over it already. If you're spending all your time getting worked up about what people do and say, you're going to be wasting a lot of your own time. Didn't someone say due to this kid they weren't going to shop at Wal-Mart anymore?....You just inconvenienced yourself over a dumb kid.

Give the kid community service and a fine. Have him load trucks on his weekends a few days out of the month, some labor and coughing up cash will make himself think twice before he does it again.

Maybe Wal-Mart should change their intercom system so any idiot that has a thought can't just speak their mind to the whole store? I mean, it's almost common sense.

[silverbear]

The way I see it, what probably happened was this kid passed by the WalMart PA system with a few of his buddies, saw the mic was unattended, and to show off for his friends, he decided to make his little announcment... he thought it would be funny...

This by itself is not racist... but when he chose to pick out black people as the butts of his joke, it did strongly suggest a racist mindset on his part... there were lots of other demographics he could have singled out for his joke, but he chose a race of people...

He should be punished for what he did, he should face the consequences in a court of law, but not because of the racist component... what he did materially damaged WalMart, and if the truth hadn't been uncovered so quickly, it had the potential to damage them severely...

He should face the music for that (and he should be ashamed of the racist aspect of his comments)... I don't think that he should be convicted of "bias intimidation", I sincerely doubt that any black people in that store were intimidated by him... outraged, pissed, saddened, those were more likely the reactions they had...

But as I mentioned before, I don't think the state of New Jersey is serious about those charges, I see them as overcharging so as to have a position of strength to bargain down from in plea negotiations...

If I'm wrong about that, if they wind up convicting him of some kind of "hate crime", I'll be on Bob's side of this one...

Actually, I think an appropriate punishment would be either to require him to work on some project with black kids, or serve 2 weeks as a WalMart greeter at that store, wearing a big sign saying "Yes, I'm the MORON Who Insulted the Black Customers of This Store"...

And yeah, I still think a period of supervised probation would be in order, because I think he must have been stoned to pull such an ignorant stunt, and random drug testing would do him some good...

[silverbear]

Maybe Wal-Mart should change their intercom system so any idiot that has a thought can't just speak their mind to the whole store? I mean, it's almost common sense.

The way I understand it, they've already taken steps in that direction... if they haven't, they certainly should...

I mean, in school the mic for the PA system was kept in the principal's office, not out where any jagoff could get on the air... LOL...