Mike and Mike on E Smith (ESPN/SATAN)

[Tobal]

Golic has him rated 3rd best ever behind Jim Brown and Walter payton.

Golic said he played against Smith more than any other runningback, said the thing that seperated him from others was he was a do it all guy, and his toughness.

Talked about one play where Smith was held up on the sideline struggling for an extra yard and he took a full steam shot at him from the side. He's like "I'm not gonna lie to you I was trying to kill him". Hit him as hard as he could, perfect shot and the he just popped back up slapped him on the head and went back to the huddle.

[trickblue]

Golic has him rated 3rd best ever behind Jim Brown and Walter payton.

Golic said he played against Smith more than any other runningback, said the thing that seperated him from others was he was a do it all guy, and his toughness.

Talked about one play where Smith was held up on the sideline struggling for an extra yard and he took a full steam shot at him from the side. He's like "I'm not gonna lie to you I was trying to kill him". Hit him as hard as he'd ever hit anyone and the he just popped back up slapped him on the head and went back to the huddle.

I heard that this morning too... Emmitt could sure take a hit back in the day...

[AdamJT13]

Golic has him rated 3rd best ever behind Jim Brown and Walter payton.
That's right where he should be.

[Q_the_man]

I like Payton, he was a horse but Emmitt is better than he was.

Dickerson would be #1 if he stayed with the Scrams but:::

1. Brown
2. Emmitt
3. Sanders
4. Payton
5. Dickerson and Sayers tied.....

[tyke1doe]

I like Payton, he was a horse but Emmitt is better than he was.

Dickerson would be #1 if he stayed with the Scrams but:::

1. Brown
2. Emmitt
3. Sanders
4. Payton
5. Dickerson and Sayers tied.....

Pulease. Dickerson had no toughness. He's ranked way below Emmitt, IMO.

Sorry, but I can't rank Emmitt above Walter Payton.

1. Brown
2. Payton
3. Emmitt

[Sarge]

IMO - Dickerson was the best 'pure runner' ever.

His problem was his attitude and overall mentality. He did get nicked up too.

AS far as pure running though - I'm taking E. Dickinson any day of the week with all due respect to the rest.

[Woods]

In his heyday, I think maybe Earl Campbell was the top back. Now, that said, Campbell's prime only lasted for a few years due to his style of running.

But for those several years, he literally terrorized defenses.

[trickblue]

If you guys are gonna talk pure runners... don't leave out Tony D...

The most graceful RB I have ever seen...

[VoR]

Jim Brown is overrated. I could name half a dozen backs I think were better. He also was a quitter just like Ricky Williams.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Brown is the man.

Payton did what Emmitt did with no line and alot less talent around him.

Emmitt was a great back but I don't believe he was better then Brown or Payton.

Sanders was the best pure runner I ever saw.

Sayers career was too short. If he could have played longer, he would be right there.

Simpson was a better combination of speed and moves then Dickerson. Smooter with the same speed and much better latteral movement.

Dickerson was a home run hitter. He could cut back but he didn't have much wiggle to him. He got a crease and he was gone. Not tough between the tackles and a real primadonna.

Tony Dorsett was a nightmare in the open field. Not overly big but was a threat to take it to the house on any given play. Electric is the best discription I can give.

Faulk was the best all purpose back I ever saw. Not a great blocker but could run, catch and litterally make you cry. Alot like TD IMO.

Martin is coming. He reminds me of Sweatness more and more.

All said and done, Earl Campbell was the best back I ever saw during a 5 year span. He was the best football player I ever saw. If I had to take one guy to start a team, that's who it would be. He was the best but not long enough to be considered the best of all time. Still, he was better then all the rest IMO.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Jim Brown is overrated. I could name half a dozen backs I think were better. He also was a quitter just like Ricky Williams.


LOL....

You never saw Jim Brown play. None of what you said is true. Unfortunate really.

[irvin88]

Brown is the man.

Payton did what Emmitt did with no line and alot less talent around him.

Emmitt was a great back but I don't believe he was better then Brown or Payton.

Sanders was the best pure runner I ever saw.

Sayers career was too short. If he could have played longer, he would be right there.

Simpson was a better combination of speed and moves then Dickerson. Smooter with the same speed and much better latteral movement.

Dickerson was a home run hitter. He could cut back but he didn't have much wiggle to him. He got a crease and he was gone. Not tough between the tackles and a real primadonna.

Tony Dorsett was a nightmare in the open field. Not overly big but was a threat to take it to the house on any given play. Electric is the best discription I can give.

Faulk was the best all purpose back I ever saw. Not a great blocker but could run, catch and litterally make you cry. Alot like TD IMO.

Martin is coming. He reminds me of Sweatness more and more.

All said and done, Earl Campbell was the best back I ever saw during a 5 year span. He was the best football player I ever saw. If I had to take one guy to start a team, that's who it would be. He was the best but not long enough to be considered the best of all time. Still, he was better then all the rest IMO.

Payton had a damn good line in the 80's. Jimbo Covert, Van Horne....

[jimmy40]

IMO - Dickerson was the best 'pure runner' ever.

His problem was his attitude and overall mentality. He did get nicked up too.

AS far as pure running though - I'm taking E. Dickinson any day of the week with all due respect to the rest.I'd take a healthy football playing only Bo Jackson over anybody that ever played.

[Bullet22]

Sanders was the best runner ever..total package, Smith is up there...

[viman96]

IMO what I see left out on who's the "best RB" or who's your "top 5 RB", Emmitt's post season performance. Not only did he step up in the regular season but he stepped up during the post season. In the 90's during the playoff's runs he did not face weak DL's like you see in today's NFL. Most of the teams were solid and he still got the yards. Teams feared him as much as they feared the OL.

It's 4 and goal and you are on the 2 yard line for the go ahead score late in the game. Imagine having Barry and Emmitt on the team. Do you give it to Emmitt or Barry?

[viman96]

Sanders was the best runner ever..total package, Smith is up there...

Sanders was a great runner but he lacked the total package. Emmitt may not have been the single best in any one area but he excelled on all fronts and that is why he is who he is.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Payton had a damn good line in the 80's. Jimbo Covert, Van Horne....

Yeah but from probably 75 to 82, he had nothing. I think Kieth Van Horn came in 81. I think Jay Hilgenburg and Kurt Becker came in 82. Covert and Bortz came in 83. All the while, he had QBs like Evans, Bob Avellini, Rusty Lisch, Greg Landry, Steve Fuller and Mike Phipps until around 82 when McMahon came in. No WRs either. Basically, for about 8 or 9 years, he was a one man show and he still put up nice numbers. Emmitt never had to do that.

[jimmy40]

LOL....

You never saw Jim Brown play. None of what you said is true. Unfortunate really. I never saw Brown play either but from what I've seen in highlights it seems he was almost always the biggest guy in the frame. Did he just get bored from running over all those slow little defensive players?

[viman96]

I never saw Brown play either but from what I've seen in highlights it seems he was almost always the biggest guy in the frame. Did he just get bored from running over all those slow little defensive players?

Some say Brown was a man amongst boys so he had it "easier" than current players because everyone is big and fast.

[ABQCOWBOY]

IMO what I see left out on who's the "best RB" or who's your "top 5 RB", Emmitt's post season performance. Not only did he step up in the regular season but he stepped up during the post season. In the 90's during the playoff's runs he did not face weak DL's like you see in today's NFL. Most of the teams were solid and he still got the yards. Teams feared him as much as they feared the OL.

It's 4 and goal and you are on the 2 yard line for the go ahead score late in the game. Imagine having Barry and Emmitt on the team. Do you give it to Emmitt or Barry?

I'd give it to Jim Brown and not worry about it. Nobodies taking anything away from Emmitt, it's just that there were a couple who were probably better. It's easy to run to glory with a HOF QB, a HOF WR at least 1 HOF OL and 4 other Pro Bowl calibur OLs to go along with it. Throw in a Novacheck and hey, who can't get up for that kind of game. When you have to do the same thing year after year when you have no chance for post season and you have nobody else around you, then you've got something. That's what guys like Payton and Campbell did year after year.

[jimmy40]

Some say Brown was a man amongst boys so he had it "easier" than current players because everyone is big and fast.I tend to agree with that. Jack Lambert was the best middle linebacker of the 70's, after Brown retired and Lambert was about 218 pounds soaking wet. Nobody can take away what Brown did and it's not his fault he was born when he was but I've seen some Dallas Carter defenses that were bigger than some Brown faced.

[Bullet22]

Sanders never had a blocking fullback or the supporting cast....I saw Brown play,,,He avg..5.2 yds. a carry for a career...If I am not mistaken, his last reg. season game was against the Boys..and they lost to the Pack in the title game. Brown played for 9 yrs. , when they played only 12 and 14 games a year...plus in avg. 9.5 yds. a catch...He won the rushing title and mvp his last yr..

[jimmy40]

I'd give it to Jim Brown and not worry about it. Nobodies taking anything away from Emmitt, it's just that there were a couple who were probably better. It's easy to run to glory with a HOF QB, a HOF WR at least 1 HOF OL and 4 other Pro Bowl calibur OLs to go along with it. Throw in a Novacheck and hey, who can't get up for that kind of game. When you have to do the same thing year after year when you have no chance for post season and you have nobody else around you, then you've got something. That's what guys like Payton and Campbell did year after year.I'll go to my grave believing Earl Campbell was the toughest SOB to ever play.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I never saw Brown play either but from what I've seen in highlights it seems he was almost always the biggest guy in the frame. Did he just get bored from running over all those slow little defensive players?

He was a pretty good sized player in those days but you also have to remember that the game was very different in those days. You didn't have the modern passing game that opened up the running game. The passing game was very limited in those days. Offensive lineman could not extend there arms and could not pass block with open hands. WRs could not run free. You could basically knock the piss out of em all the way down the field and after the catch. QBs actually had to play. They took hits on every play and there were no roughing calls or slides. This allowed defenses to play closer to the line of scrimage and tighter to the hash. It was much tougher to run in those days.

As for walking away from the game. Brown had won multiple championships. He was the single greatest player in the game. He was black at a time when it was not easy to be a person of color. He didn't get paid like athletes do today. He had an opportunity to walk away from the game, having nothing left to prove or even go after, with his health intact and make 5 times more money doing movies.

What would you do?

[jimmy40]

Sanders never had a blocking fullback or the supporting cast....I saw Brown play,,,He avg..5.2 yds. a carry for a career...If I am not mistaken, his last reg. season game was against the Boys..and they lost to the Pack in the title game.But how many carries did Sanders get when the defense was spread out because of the run and shoot? Emmitt never had that luxury. I guess we could go back and forth all day.

[jimmy40]

He was a pretty good sized player in those days but you also have to remember that the game was very different in those days. You didn't have the modern passing game that opened up the running game. The passing game was very limited in those days. Offensive lineman could not extend there arms and could not pass block with open hands. WRs could not run free. You could basically knock the piss out of em all the way down the field and after the catch. QBs actually had to play. They took hits on every play and there were no roughing calls or slides. This allowed defenses to play closer to the line of scrimage and tighter to the hash. It was much tougher to run in those days.

As for walking away from the game. Brown had won multiple championships. He was the single greatest player in the game. He was black at a time when it was not easy to be a person of color. He didn't get paid like athletes do today. He had an opportunity to walk away from the game, having nothing left to prove or even go after, with his health intact and make 5 times more money doing movies.

What would you do?I'm not saying he shouldn't have quit. Maybe he should have quit sooner.

[SALADIN]

IMO - Dickerson was the best 'pure runner' ever.

His problem was his attitude and overall mentality. He did get nicked up too.

AS far as pure running though - I'm taking E. Dickinson any day of the week with all due respect to the rest.

Agreed Sarge

Dickerson was Secretariat in cleats.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I'm not saying he shouldn't have quit. Maybe he should have quit sooner.

It's a tough thing to get into the mind of great players. Some say Emmitt should have quit sooner. How do you tell a player the calibur of an Emmitt Smith or a Jim Brown when it's time to quit. I think you just have to leave it up to them and eventually, the game will decide that for you.

[Bullet22]

Lot of good ones..

[The Duke]

Histroy questions are soooo hard b/c variables change. I think people see highlight clips and no matter how much you try to take the variables in consideration you just can't make the adjustment and compare fairly. Let's say Jim Brown ran a 4.3 and those white DBs a 4.8. Brown weighed probably within 30 lbs. of anybody on the DL or LBs. This is still true in the 70s and early 80s to a lesser degree. But now...

Emmitt weighed 210, ran a 4.5 and went against 300+ DT 280+ DE and DBs 4.3 faster than him. The second half of his career did not have the great line of the SB years. He still got his yards. He did it against top notch physical specimen of the modern era. My point is that he did it! That makes him #1 bar non Overall running back of all time. The only way he is not is to rank them in categories like...speed, power, pure runner only, blocker, reciever.

How come Jerry Rice is the undisputed #1 overall WR. He's not the fastest, gracefullest, best blocker, etc...? He's as much a product of the system as Emmitt was with the Cowboy OL.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Histroy questions are soooo hard b/c variables change. I think people see highlight clips and no matter how much you try to take the variables in consideration you just can't make the adjustment and compare fairly. Let's say Jim Brown ran a 4.3 and those white DBs a 4.8. Brown weighed probably within 30 lbs. of anybody on the DL or LBs. This is still true in the 70s and early 80s to a lesser degree. But now...

Emmitt weighed 210, ran a 4.5 and went against 300+ DT 280+ DE and DBs 4.3 faster than him. The second half of his career did not have the great line of the SB years. He still got his yards. He did it against top notch physical specimen of the modern era. My point is that he did it! That makes him #1 bar non Overall running back of all time. The only way he is not is to rank them in categories like...speed, power, pure runner only, blocker, reciever.

How come Jerry Rice is the undisputed #1 overall WR. He's not the fastest, gracefullest, best blocker, etc...? He's as much a product of the system as Emmitt was with the Cowboy OL.

Personally, I don't think Rice was the best. Is Payton Manning the best QB of all time? He's going to have all the records.

I, for one, don't see it this black and white. I agree that you shouldn't compare players of different eras because you can't account for certain things. The game itself was different. One thing I will say here. Brown was the undisputed best back of his time. There are certainly questions as to who was the best while vertually any other back played.

[jimmy40]

How come Jerry Rice is the undisputed #1 overall WR. He's not the fastest, gracefullest, best blocker, etc...? He's as much a product of the system as Emmitt was with the Cowboy OL.Because Jerry Rice was way better than anyone else. Michael Ervin called him in Cleats. That says it all to me. Emmitt and Jerry could both play in any system.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Because Jerry Rice was way better than anyone else. Michael Ervin called him in Cleats. That says it all to me. Emmitt and Jerry could both play in any system.

As much as I hate to say this, I think Randy Moss is the best WR I've ever seen. That sucks but there it is.

[ravidubey]

Payton did what Emmitt did with no line and alot less talent around him.


I'm sure Jimbo Covert, Jay Hilgenberg, Tom Thayer, and Mark Bortz might take issue with this since they played with Walter at least five years. These guys were pro-bowlers, for Pete's sakes!

Having that great defense for the last four or five years didn't hurt, either. There were also a few guys name Suey, Gault, and McMahon that helped out a wee bit.

[ravidubey]

I'd give it to Jim Brown and not worry about it. Nobodies taking anything away from Emmitt, it's just that there were a couple who were probably better. It's easy to run to glory with a HOF QB, a HOF WR at least 1 HOF OL and 4 other Pro Bowl calibur OLs to go along with it. Throw in a Novacheck and hey, who can't get up for that kind of game. When you have to do the same thing year after year when you have no chance for post season and you have nobody else around you, then you've got something. That's what guys like Payton and Campbell did year after year.

And still, the one thing defenses knew they had to do was stop Emmitt Smith and so they put up 8 man fronts week in and week out. All Emmitt did was tear them up whether they keyed on him or not. That got harder as the supporting cast got weaker and Emmitt got older, but he still got his yards.

[LA=Pancakemaker]

You guys can argue who was this or that, but Emmitt is the best hes the leading rusher, no asterick by that. Debate over.

[Aikmaniac]

Sometimes I'm frustrated that I'm only 26 and didn't get the chance to follow guys like Brown, Campbell, Riggins, etc. I was young when Tony D and Payton were in their primes...however, I did get to see the unbelievable career of one Emmitt Smith. I can be thankful about that.

The durability needed to achieve such a statistic as the all-time leading rusher is remarkable. I don't see a player, especially at RB, able to reach that peak anytime soon. I'm glad to see Curtis Martin doing well, though. Before Edge's injury, I thought he'd have a shot, now, I'm not so sure.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I'm sure Jimbo Covert, Jay Hilgenberg, Tom Thayer, and Mark Bortz might take issue with this since they played with Walter at least five years. These guys were pro-bowlers, for Pete's sakes!

Having that great defense for the last four or five years didn't hurt, either. There were also a few guys name Suey, Gault, and McMahon that helped out a wee bit.

Read on and you'll see where this is addressed. Say what you want but Emmitt didn't go 8 years without help. Simple as that.

Go from 75 to 82 and then you tell me how may great players Sweatness played with.

[RubyRidge]

IMO what I see left out on who's the "best RB" or who's your "top 5 RB", Emmitt's post season performance. Not only did he step up in the regular season but he stepped up during the post season. In the 90's during the playoff's runs he did not face weak DL's like you see in today's NFL. Most of the teams were solid and he still got the yards. Teams feared him as much as they feared the OL.

It's 4 and goal and you are on the 2 yard line for the go ahead score late in the game. Imagine having Barry and Emmitt on the team. Do you give it to Emmitt or Barry?

Detroit didn't even give it to Barry, they regularly brought in some RB (whose name escapes me now) during short yardage situations.

[ABQCOWBOY]

And still, the one thing defenses knew they had to do was stop Emmitt Smith and so they put up 8 man fronts week in and week out. All Emmitt did was tear them up whether they keyed on him or not. That got harder as the supporting cast got weaker and Emmitt got older, but he still got his yards.

I agree to a point. Lets face it, he ran behind possibly the best OL ever. Having said that, there's no question that Emmitt had a great career but how does that equate to Sweatness or Campbell playing in Chicago and Houston/New Orleans?

[SuspectCorner]

this debate could rage on forever. in a popularity poll, it's all about OPINIONS. and everybody seems to have one. i really enjoy what is the ONE most important, crystalline, FACT. when you look up "NFL all-time leading rusher" - you will find only one man's name at the top of that list. Emmitt Smith. any attending conjecture to this fact will not alter one character in the name at the top of that list. it merely serves as "fluff". let the debates rage on. cowboys fans have everybody else where it counts. we got scoreboard.

[jcollins28]

I agree with Colin Cowherad (?) Emmitt is #1 in yards, TD's and just about everything else. He is the BEST r/b to play the game. For those who point out the great Cowboy O line that he had played with. Lets be real here. There was a good amount of years that the only good about that line was it's reputation. The line was just as bad as any that Sanders or anyone else had played behind for quite sometime.

[Yakuza Rich]

I'm not sure how they can say that Walter Payton wasn't as complete of a back as Emmitt. Walter was the best blocking tailback I've ever seen and could catch the ball out of the backfield very well, he just never had an offense to do it behind.

As far as total running, I'd take Jim Brown. His problem was that he utterly refused to block for the QB. However, the QB was less important in his day and his attitude might've changed if he played in today's game.

If Brown's refused to block in today's game, I'd take both Emmitt and Walter over him any day. But, if Emmitt and Walter were playing in his era, I'd give the nod to Brown.

I think the one guy that really gets the shaft as far as running backs go is Marshall Faulk. He's like Westbrook is for the Eagles, only 10 x's better in his prime.


Rich.........

[PJCOWBOYS]

I agree with most here, who cares what opinions you have. They hold no weight when it comes to reality. Emmitt is the all time leading rusher. That is all that matters. That is what every running back aspires to be. Emmitt is it right now.

By the way, Troy Hambrick is the best rb ever...

[ABQCOWBOY]

I agree with Colin Cowherad (?) Emmitt is #1 in yards, TD's and just about everything else. He is the BEST r/b to play the game. For those who point out the great Cowboy O line that he had played with. Lets be real here. There was a good amount of years that the only good about that line was it's reputation. The line was just as bad as any that Sanders or anyone else had played behind for quite sometime.

This is simply not true. In 1995, Emmitt ran for 1773 yards.

In 96 he ran for 1204. His line included Ray Donnaldson C, Derek Kinnard G/C, Larry Allen G, Nate Newton G, Mark Tuinei T and Erik Williams T.

In 97 he ran for 1074. His line included Larry Allen G, Nate Newton G, Clay Shiver C, Mark Tuinei T and Erik Williams T.

In 98 he ran for 1332. His line included Larry Allen G, Nate Newton G, Clay Shiver C, Flozell Adams T and Erik Williams T.

In 99 he ran for 1397. His line included Mark Stepnoski C, Larry Allen G, Everett McIver G, Flozell Adams T and Erik Williams T.

In 00 he ran for 1203. His line included Mark Stepnoski C, Larry Allen G, Solomon Paige G, Flozell Adams T and Erik Williams T.

In 01 he ran for 1021. His line included Mark Stepnoski C, Larry Allen G, Kelvin Garmon G, Flozell Adams T and Solomon Paige T.

In 02 he ran for 975. His line included Andre Gurode C, Larry Allen G, Kelvin Garmon G, Flozell Adams T and Solomon Paige T.

You look at the years and really, only maybe two of them were what I would consider poor lines. In fact, I would say that only 02 was poor and 01 was average. You can say a lot of things about Emmitt and many of them would be true. One thing that can be said is that Emmitt played with behind some very good offensive lines while in Dallas.

[Fletch]

If you guys are gonna talk pure runners... don't leave out Tony D...

The most graceful RB I have ever seen...

Tony Dorsett was graceful indeed. But I would have to say the most graceful runner I have ever seen is Terrell Davis of the Broncos. He said when he hit the open field, he would just relax his body and run.

The guy glided. Prettiest open field running I have ever seen.

[viman96]

Detroit didn't even give it to Barry, they regularly brought in some RB (whose name escapes me now) during short yardage situations.

That's my point :cool:

IMO the Barry vs. Emmitt debates are worthless. They were used differently by both teams. Dallas always counted on Emmitt where as Detroit did not with Barry.

[SuspectCorner]

This is simply not true. In 1995, Emmitt ran for 1773 yards.

In 96 he ran for 1204. His line included Ray Donnaldson C, Derek Kinnard G/C, Larry Allen G, Nate Newton G, Mark Tuinei T and Erik Williams T.

In 97 he ran for 1074. His line included Larry Allen G, Nate Newton G, Clay Shiver C, Mark Tuinei T and Erik Williams T.

In 98 he ran for 1332. His line included Larry Allen G, Nate Newton G, Clay Shiver C, Flozell Adams T and Erik Williams T.

In 99 he ran for 1397. His line included Mark Stepnoski C, Larry Allen G, Everett McIver G, Flozell Adams T and Erik Williams T.

In 00 he ran for 1203. His line included Mark Stepnoski C, Larry Allen G, Solomon Paige G, Flozell Adams T and Erik Williams T.

In 01 he ran for 1021. His line included Mark Stepnoski C, Larry Allen G, Kelvin Garmon G, Flozell Adams T and Solomon Paige T.

In 02 he ran for 975. His line included Andre Gurode C, Larry Allen G, Kelvin Garmon G, Flozell Adams T and Solomon Paige T.

You look at the years and really, only maybe two of them were what I would consider poor lines. In fact, I would say that only 02 was poor and 01 was average. You can say a lot of things about Emmitt and many of them would be true. One thing that can be said is that Emmitt played with behind some very good offensive lines while in Dallas.
tuinei and newton were NOBODYS til emmitt made the scene. newton for several years.

[ABQCOWBOY]

tuinei and newton were NOBODYS til emmitt made the scene. newton for several years.

Exactly what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

By the time Emmitt arrived in 90, Tuinei had already been in the league 7 seasons and was a pretty good Lineman, even if the team was not all that great. Same with Nate. He had already played 4 years and was developing into a nice OG. While your commets are accurate, they are only accurate to a point. They were nobodies because the whole team was not very good at that point. Not because they weren't developing into good football players.

[SuspectCorner]

Exactly what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

By the time Emmitt arrived in 90, Tuinei had already been in the league 7 seasons and was a pretty good Lineman, even if the team was not all that great. Same with Nate. He had already played 4 years and was developing into a nice OG. While your commets are accurate, they are only accurate to a point. They were nobodies because the whole team was not very good at that point. Not because they weren't developing into good football players.
excuse me. tea? i thought we were discussing the linemen/magicians that opened up all the huge holes for emmitt. face it - when emmitt wasn't on the field they looked pedestrian at best. no dice.

[ABQCOWBOY]

excuse me. tea? i thought we were discussing the linemen/magicians that opened up all the huge holes for emmitt. face it - when emmitt wasn't on the field they looked pedestrian at best. no dice.

I guess that would be one person's opinion. However, in 86 Walker rushed for 737 yards on 71 Carries for an average of 4.9 YPC. An aging Tony Dorsett rushed for 748 on 184 carries for an average of 4.1. In 87 Hershall rushed for 891 yards on 209 carries for 4.3 YPC. TD rushed for 456 on 130 or 3.5 YPC. In 88 TD left for Denver and Hershall took over full time. That year he rushed for 1514 yards on 361 carries or 4.2 YPC. In 89 Hershall went to the Vikes and Aikman arrived in Dallas. We were pretty bad that year. Our running game was an assortmant of nobodies lead by a kid out of Temple named Paul Palmer. Palmer managed to rush for 446 yards on 112 carries and averaged a very decent 4.0 YPC. You look at all of these numbers and they don't support what your trying to suggest.

I realize that what I'm saying is not a popular opinion and that's OK. However, it doesn't mean it's invalid either. Emmitt was great, there is no questions but the fact remains that he played with one of the very best offensive lines ever. To try and suggest otherwise is folly.

[SuspectCorner]

I guess that would be one person's opinion. However, in 86 Walker rushed for 737 yards on 71 Carries for an average of 4.9 YPC.

I realize that what I'm saying is not a popular opinion and that's OK. However, it doesn't mean it's invalid either. Emmitt was great, there is no questions but the fact remains that he played with one of the very best offensive lines ever. To try and suggest otherwise is folly.
check your '86 rushing line on herschel. at 737 yards on 71 carries - he'd be averaging OVER 10 yards per carry. i realize this is a misprint.
it may have been one of the greatest O-lines ever assembled. but i don't think those men EVER blocked as fiercely as when emmitt smith was the guy they were doing it for. emmitt loved the O-line. the O-line loved emmitt. IMO, newton, tuinei & co. notched up the intensity when emmitt arrived.

[Chocolate Lab]

IMO - Dickerson was the best 'pure runner' ever.

His problem was his attitude and overall mentality. He did get nicked up too.

AS far as pure running though - I'm taking E. Dickinson any day of the week with all due respect to the rest.

Preach it Sarge!

I thought I was the only one alive who thought that... :)

[jcblanco22]

But how many carries did Sanders get when the defense was spread out because of the run and shoot? Emmitt never had that luxury. I guess we could go back and forth all day.

Great point Jimmy, and that's part of the frustration I have with this whole "Sanders never had an OL or supporting cast". A while back mickgreen58 posted a link to a dispute he once resolved regarding the Barry/Emmitt thing where he listed the amount of Pro Bowlers in Kevin Glover and the others on the Lions OL that Sanders did play with. That's not to mention the fact that he had one of the best WRs of the early to mid 90s in Herman Moore (first guy to go over 100 catches in a season if I'm not mistaken), another 100 reception guy in Brett Perriman that one year, and some prolific numbers from Scott Mitchell for a while there as well.

[Mike12]

I've heard alot of talk radio this week about how Barry Sanders is the best RB ever. I don't get it. Yeah he was amazing to watch but where was he on third down and in goal line situations? Emmitt could run, catch, and block and his heart was as big as Texas Stadium. I'd go Jim Brown, Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton.

[jcblanco22]

This is simply not true. In 1995, Emmitt ran for 1773 yards.

In 96 he ran for 1204. His line included Ray Donnaldson C, Derek Kinnard G/C, Larry Allen G, Nate Newton G, Mark Tuinei T and Erik Williams T.

In 97 he ran for 1074. His line included Larry Allen G, Nate Newton G, Clay Shiver C, Mark Tuinei T and Erik Williams T.

In 98 he ran for 1332. His line included Larry Allen G, Nate Newton G, Clay Shiver C, Flozell Adams T and Erik Williams T.

In 99 he ran for 1397. His line included Mark Stepnoski C, Larry Allen G, Everett McIver G, Flozell Adams T and Erik Williams T.

In 00 he ran for 1203. His line included Mark Stepnoski C, Larry Allen G, Solomon Paige G, Flozell Adams T and Erik Williams T.

In 01 he ran for 1021. His line included Mark Stepnoski C, Larry Allen G, Kelvin Garmon G, Flozell Adams T and Solomon Paige T.

In 02 he ran for 975. His line included Andre Gurode C, Larry Allen G, Kelvin Garmon G, Flozell Adams T and Solomon Paige T.

You look at the years and really, only maybe two of them were what I would consider poor lines. In fact, I would say that only 02 was poor and 01 was average. You can say a lot of things about Emmitt and many of them would be true. One thing that can be said is that Emmitt played with behind some very good offensive lines while in Dallas.

Whoa ABQ, I respectfully beg to differ on your overall assessment of some of those lines. Let's put the names aside a bit and recall performance instead.

In 1997 Nate Newton was playing at close to 400 pounds by the end of the season and could barely move. Erik Williams also was having a hell of a time out there. I believe Tui was hurt several times that season and Clay Shiver was below average at best as an overwhelmed rookie, down to about 265 pounds by the end of the season and getting pushed into the backfield with regularity. Emmitt's thousand yards came down to that last game against the Bengals.

In 1998, granted the line was improved, in part because Nate lost 80 pounds that offseason and Erik Williams came back much more motivated that year as well. Shiver went down early (he had shown some improvement in leg strength while in there) and Mike Kiselak came in and did a stand-up job for several weeks. However, this was still Flozell's rookie year and the line, while greatly improved over the previous mess of Switzer's last season, was slightly above average at best and running a brand new offense at the time as well. I compare the improvement shown in this '98 OL from the '97 version to the improvement our '03 line showed over the '02 version.

I think the 1999 line was the best out of these three seasons because of Step's return stabilizing the middle, but this was also the year where our offense was down to Wane McGarity and Jason Tucker starting opposite a miscast Rocket Ismail (miscast as a No. 1 receiver) by the end of the season. I honestly think this was one of Emmitt's most underappreciated seasons. BTW, this '99 team also leads the way for my all-time "Frustratingly Unfilled Potential In A Cowboys Team" award, mainly due to Irvin's injury.

I would agree that the 2000 OL wasn't too bad at all, Solomon Page was actually playing like he was interested that season (and in '01 too for the most part).

[jcblanco22]

I guess that would be one person's opinion. However, in 86 Walker rushed for 737 yards on 71 Carries for an average of 4.9 YPC. An aging Tony Dorsett rushed for 748 on 184 carries for an average of 4.1. In 87 Hershall rushed for 891 yards on 209 carries for 4.3 YPC. TD rushed for 456 on 130 or 3.5 YPC. In 88 TD left for Denver and Hershall took over full time. That year he rushed for 1514 yards on 361 carries or 4.2 YPC. In 89 Hershall went to the Vikes and Aikman arrived in Dallas. We were pretty bad that year. Our running game was an assortmant of nobodies lead by a kid out of Temple named Paul Palmer. Palmer managed to rush for 446 yards on 112 carries and averaged a very decent 4.0 YPC. You look at all of these numbers and they don't support what your trying to suggest.

I realize that what I'm saying is not a popular opinion and that's OK. However, it doesn't mean it's invalid either. Emmitt was great, there is no questions but the fact remains that he played with one of the very best offensive lines ever. To try and suggest otherwise is folly.

ABQ, I think you make an excellent and rarely brought up point by bringing up Herschel's '88 numbers and even more interestingly, the numbers Dorsett and he put up the two previous seasons to that.

However, I have said this before, I think that Tunei and Newton were playing nowhere near their potential until Tony Wise got there, not necessarily Emmitt. I know Tui was still trying to make that transition from defensive tackle (I think the conversion started in the 1986 training camp). I also think the guy people forget was also on that line pre-Jimmy and who played a huge part in Emmitt's early success was Kevin Gogan, who was a more accomplished player when Emmitt arrived in 1990 than the other two holdovers.

I do recall reading a note in one of Skip Bayless's books where I believe Tex Schramm, or someone else whose tenure in Dallas overlapped the arrival of Jerry and Jimmy by one season, stated to Jimmy and Tony Wise something to the effect of "you just can't win in the NFL with Nate Newton and Mark Tunei starting on your offensive line" during the 1989 offseason.

[dallas2G]

Another point people don't bring up in the Barry Sanders vs. Emmitt Smith debate is the divisions they played in.

Emmitt played against the vaunted Eagles defense of Reggie White, Jerome Brown, etc. He went up against the Giants Super Bowl teams of LT and company, and he went up against the Super Bowl winning team of the Redskins. Last but not least...the Cardinals. OK they sucked!!

Meanwhile Barry Sanders was running circles around the pitiful Bears, Vikings, Bucs, and even the Packers in the early 90's. All of those teams were horrible during that time. The Packers eventually improved...but by then Sanders had left.

Yeah...it's true Emmitt had the better surrounding cast around him...but he also had the tougher schedule year in and year out.

[2233boys]

Payton
Smith
Sanders


To rate Gayle Sayers up with these guys is an insult. Part of being great is doing it over an extended period of time.

[2233boys]

Another point people don't bring up in the Barry Sanders vs. Emmitt Smith debate is the divisions they played in.

Emmitt played against the vaunted Eagles defense of Reggie White, Jerome Brown, etc. He went up against the Giants Super Bowl teams of LT and company, and he went up against the Super Bowl winning team of the Redskins. Last but not least...the Cardinals. OK they sucked!!

Meanwhile Barry Sanders was running circles around the pitiful Bears, Vikings, Bucs, and even the Packers in the early 90's. All of those teams were horrible during that time. The Packers eventually improved...but by then Sanders had left.

Yeah...it's true Emmitt had the better surrounding cast around him...but he also had the tougher schedule year in and year out.

Emmitt made the COwboys better, not the other way around, look at the Cowboys with Emmitt in the line up and with out. That surronding cast thing and the oline thing are two ways people try and deminish his achievments. THe Packers were actually good by 94 and Sanders was with theLions when the Pack was good. Also don't let people try to fool you Barry was on a number of Playoff teams.

[PullMyFinger]

Ill go

Brown
Payton
Smith
Dickerson/Campbell tie
Sanders

The thing I didnt like about Barry was he had too many negative yards for me, he'd have 5 carries for -7 yards then bust one for 65. Hell he probably has as many negative yards as he does positive yards, but he sure could carry the rock.

Emmitt is definately the toughest SOB ive ever seen carry the ball, ill never forget the playoff game aginst the Gnats where he had the seperated shoulder, and took that game over.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Whoa ABQ, I respectfully beg to differ on your overall assessment of some of those lines. Let's put the names aside a bit and recall performance instead.

In 1997 Nate Newton was playing at close to 400 pounds by the end of the season and could barely move. Erik Williams also was having a hell of a time out there. I believe Tui was hurt several times that season and Clay Shiver was below average at best as an overwhelmed rookie, down to about 265 pounds by the end of the season and getting pushed into the backfield with regularity. Emmitt's thousand yards came down to that last game against the Bengals.

In 1998, granted the line was improved, in part because Nate lost 80 pounds that offseason and Erik Williams came back much more motivated that year as well. Shiver went down early (he had shown some improvement in leg strength while in there) and Mike Kiselak came in and did a stand-up job for several weeks. However, this was still Flozell's rookie year and the line, while greatly improved over the previous mess of Switzer's last season, was slightly above average at best and running a brand new offense at the time as well. I compare the improvement shown in this '98 OL from the '97 version to the improvement our '03 line showed over the '02 version.

I think the 1999 line was the best out of these three seasons because of Step's return stabilizing the middle, but this was also the year where our offense was down to Wane McGarity and Jason Tucker starting opposite a miscast Rocket Ismail (miscast as a No. 1 receiver) by the end of the season. I honestly think this was one of Emmitt's most underappreciated seasons. BTW, this '99 team also leads the way for my all-time "Frustratingly Unfilled Potential In A Cowboys Team" award, mainly due to Irvin's injury.

I would agree that the 2000 OL wasn't too bad at all, Solomon Page was actually playing like he was interested that season (and in '01 too for the most part).


I can absolutly agree that the lines of the Cowboys in the 90s played better for Emmitt then they did for anybody else and to a great degree, this is a reflection on Emmitt himself. Proof of this is Jones this year and how our line looked many times when he was running the ball. My posts here are not ment to detract from Emmitts greatness. No amount of message board posting will ever accomplish that. My point is simply that while Emmitt was one of the very best backs ever, he is not the best, in my mind. The Brown, Payton, Smith pecking order seems fair to me. Having said that, there is certainly room for a difference of opionon on this. When it's all said and done, I would hate to have to live off the difference between all these great backs.

[ABQCOWBOY]

ABQ, I think you make an excellent and rarely brought up point by bringing up Herschel's '88 numbers and even more interestingly, the numbers Dorsett and he put up the two previous seasons to that.

However, I have said this before, I think that Tunei and Newton were playing nowhere near their potential until Tony Wise got there, not necessarily Emmitt. I know Tui was still trying to make that transition from defensive tackle (I think the conversion started in the 1986 training camp). I also think the guy people forget was also on that line pre-Jimmy and who played a huge part in Emmitt's early success was Kevin Gogan, who was a more accomplished player when Emmitt arrived in 1990 than the other two holdovers.

I do recall reading a note in one of Skip Bayless's books where I believe Tex Schramm, or someone else whose tenure in Dallas overlapped the arrival of Jerry and Jimmy by one season, stated to Jimmy and Tony Wise something to the effect of "you just can't win in the NFL with Nate Newton and Mark Tunei starting on your offensive line" during the 1989 offseason.

I am of the opinion that athletes in the NFL or really any major sport are, for the most part, equal physically with a few exceptions at this level. It is the mental aspect and the drive that set them apart so I believe that there is something to what you say. I believe that the coaching had a lot to do with the success of our teams of that era. IMO, the OLines were the cornerstones of those teams. You can point to Emmitt or Troy or Irvin, perhaps even the defense but to me there is no question. The single most dominating and important part of those teams were the offensive lines. I think Dallas fans are spoiled to some extent in that we expect our OLines to be perfect. The truth is that if you asked 90% of the teams in the NFL after 95 if they would like to have the talent we had on our OLine, they would more then likely be flipping hand springs. I realize that this is only my opinion but that's what I believe. We have had such good players at those positions over the years that I just don't think we realize what the rest of the NFL goes through on the OLine. That of cours is only my opinon.

[cowheel]

Jim Brown is overrated. I could name half a dozen backs I think were better. He also was a quitter just like Ricky Williams.
.wow.