UFC 116: Lesnar vs Carwin [Archive] - Dallas Cowboys Forum

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Rampage

07-02-2010, 02:58 PM

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/354664/ufc116-poster_medium.jpg

Ultimate Fighting Championship (http://www.sherdog.com/organizations/Ultimate-Fighting-Championship-2)
July 3, 2010
MGM Grand Garden Arena,
Las Vegas, Nevada, United States

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UFC 116 FIGHT CARD

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Matchups:
UFC Heavyweight Championship
Brock Lesnar (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Brock-Lesnar-17522) (No. 2 HW) vs. Shane Carwin (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Shane-Carwin-14013) (No. 4 HW)

Yoshihiro Akiyama (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Yoshihiro-Akiyama-11895) (No. 10 MW) vs. Chris Leben (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Chris-Leben-6258)
Chris Lytle (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Chris-Lytle-267) vs. Matt Brown (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Matt-Brown-14310)
Stephan Bonnar (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Stephan-Bonnar-3014) vs. Krzysztof Soszynski (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Krzysztof-Soszynski-9178)
George Sotiropoulos (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/George-Sotiropoulos-11702) vs. Kurt Pellegrino (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Kurt-Pellegrino-4153)
Brendan Schaub (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Brendan-Schaub-33926) vs. Chris Tuchscherer (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Chris-Tuchscherer-10669)
Ricardo Romero (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Ricardo-Romero-23978) vs. Seth Petruzelli (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Seth-Petruzelli-2738)
Kendall Grove (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Kendall-Grove-10126) vs. Goran Reljic (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Goran-Reljic-10165)
Gerald Harris (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Gerald-Harris-17903) vs. Dave Branch (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Dave-Branch-32431)
Daniel Roberts (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Daniel-Roberts-23999) vs. Forrest Petz (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Forrest-Petz-4411)
Jon Madsen (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Jon-Madsen-48820) vs. Karlos Vemola (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Karlos-Vemola-40238)

BigWillie

07-02-2010, 05:38 PM

Love some of these matchups.

Lytle vs Brown will be a war. Both those guys are always 'game' fighters and always do something exciting.

Sotiropoulos and Pellegrino could turn into a grappling clinic. I know that will not interest most, but if you love the ground game, you will likely love this fight.

Akiyama and Leben probably will not be the prettiest fight. Leben's takedown defense looked much improved, but can it hold up against Akiyama? I know Akiyama is getting more confident in his standup, but does he really want to bang with Leben's two nuclear warhead of fists he has?

And Lesnar - Carwin. I'm really interested to see where Lesnar is, and what he has improved on in all this time. The one thing that I hate about Lesnar's camp is the guys he has with him. It's basically a large concentration of heavyweight wrestlers, and not a group of guys who will allow him to evolve. IIRC, Erik Paulson is even his kickboxing coach, which isn't the best guy to have helping with your striking.

It's a good group of guys if you are looking to improve upon takedown defense and wrestling, but Brock will be teaching all of them in that department more than they can help him learn anything.

Really wish Brock would go somewhere like ATT or Alliance to focus in on his striking to see how good he really could become.

Another thing is Brock admitted he has lost about 15lbs, and now doesn't need to stay in the sauna burning off weight to get to 265lbs. Dude is still gonna be as big an as strong as ever, but how much would that extra weight help push around a guy who will be as big as him in Carwin? You can definitely notice in his neck and shoulders that Brock is not as big as he was.

In the end, I still think Brock's wrestling can outdo anyone in the division as long as he relies on it. If Brock oes his game and what he is best at, he takes this pretty easily.

But if Brock stands for too long, I have no doubt Carwin will find his chin and test it rather hard.

I'll say Brock by TKO mid way through the 2nd.

rkell87

07-02-2010, 06:34 PM

cant wait, getting to the bar early to get a seat. i hope brock is 100 percent, he didnt look too enthusiastic at the weigh in

Rampage

07-02-2010, 08:49 PM

BigWillie

07-02-2010, 09:11 PM

regarding Lesnar Couture came in and trained with him for this fight. also the "extra weight" isn't that much of a difference cause he said he used to have to cut 10 to maybe 15 pounds before fights and now he cuts 5 pounds. If anything he's probably a little faster yet still as strong:eek:

Bringing in Couture isn't going to improve striking, nor as a sparring partner will he provide anything to get him ready for a guy like Carwin.

Couture is basically just a 220lbs version of Lesnar. Insane wrestler, great clinchwork. But a 265lbs+ man with insane punching power he is not.

Heck, go grab Juanito Ibarra and let him refine just his boxing. While Ibarra may be a giant POS, the guy did wonders for Rampage's defense and striking. Erik Paulson is not the guy to take him to the next level in that regard. If he was working on his ground game, maybe. But Paulson should not even be a striking coach.

And I agree. Lesnar actually looked quicker on the ground, in some limited training videos I saw of him. But quickness isn't something that will be overly used in this fight, especially with two giant heavyweights in the cage. That added weight would help him push Carwin around the cage, keep him down, and test his cardio, if it goes that long.

That is unless Lesnar really is willing to test his standup against Carwin. But I don't see why a wrestler of Lesnar's caliber would even think about that.

Rampage

07-02-2010, 09:39 PM

I can see where you're coming from but a guy like Brock could soak up some of the knowlege Randy has when it comes to mma. he can tell Brock what he needs to improve on and show him some things.

I wouldn't be suprised if Lesnar decides to stand and throw a few atleast early on. although Carwin hits hard his boxing and footwork are very sloppy. he's been hurt several times but his punching power got him out of trouble. now Brock's standup is nothing special either(we are talking about 270 pound fighters lol) but I could see him dropping Carwin.

TheCount

07-02-2010, 10:39 PM

Excited to see Daniel Roberts again, hopefully he's gotten more rounded but his grappling is top notch.

This is actually a very good card, a little disappointed I may not get to watch it live. Stupid family obligations.

BraveHeartFan

07-03-2010, 01:04 AM

Brock Lesnar (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Brock-Lesnar-17522) (No. 2 HW) vs. Shane Carwin (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Shane-Carwin-14013) (No. 4 HW)

Yoshihiro Akiyama (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Yoshihiro-Akiyama-11895) (No. 10 MW) vs. Chris Leben (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Chris-Leben-6258)
Chris Lytle (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Chris-Lytle-267) vs. Matt Brown (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Matt-Brown-14310)
Stephan Bonnar (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Stephan-Bonnar-3014) vs. Krzysztof Soszynski (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Krzysztof-Soszynski-9178)
George Sotiropoulos (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/George-Sotiropoulos-11702) vs. Kurt Pellegrino (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Kurt-Pellegrino-4153)
Brendan Schaub (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Brendan-Schaub-33926) vs. Chris Tuchscherer (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Chris-Tuchscherer-10669)
Ricardo Romero (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Ricardo-Romero-23978) vs. Seth Petruzelli (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Seth-Petruzelli-2738)
Kendall Grove (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Kendall-Grove-10126) vs. Goran Reljic (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Goran-Reljic-10165)
Gerald Harris (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Gerald-Harris-17903) vs. Dave Branch (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Dave-Branch-32431)
Daniel Roberts (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Daniel-Roberts-23999) vs. Forrest Petz (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Forrest-Petz-4411)
Jon Madsen (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Jon-Madsen-48820) vs. Karlos Vemola (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Karlos-Vemola-40238)

Pretty decent card. It's not off the charts awesome but there are some really solid fights in this thing.

Akiyama vs Leben will be fun to watch though I was definately looking forward to him and Silva. Lytle and Brown will be an amazing fight and I'm a HUGE fan of Krzysztof so I'm looking forward to that fight as well.

As for the main I've been waiting for this one for nearly a year. This one should be really great. I'm torn as to who will win but I know I'll be rooting for Brock (though I do like Carwin).

I think it comes down to where the fight takes place. If Brock decides he wants to try and throw with Carwin I believe Carwin will knock him out and win. If Brock does what he does best, takes him down, and does some ground and pounding then I believe Brock will win this one.

I don't think Brock will have trouble getting him down. Carwin has been taken down before, by a guy not nearly as good as Brock with that, and Brock will be strong enough to do some things to Carwin on the ground.

It should be a very entertaining fight.

One area where I do believe Randy can really help Brock is the dirty boxing, and against the cage work. Remember that is where Carwin absolutely demolished Frank Mir was against the cage with some close up striking.

Now Mir is obviously no Lesnar (in terms of size and strength and what not) but none the less some polishing up in those areas can't ever hurt a fighter.

Cover 2

07-03-2010, 01:12 AM

I'm really looking forward to the Reljic-Grove fight and the Sotiropoulos-Pellegrino fights. Of course though the most interesting one is the main event.

I always enjoy watching Reljic fight. His stand up reminds me of a cheap version of a prime Cro Cop (this is actually a compliment) and he is also an accomplished grappler. I see him beating Grove by decision though.

Even though Batman is a good grappler he is no matchup for Sotiropoulos. Sotiropoulos is amazing on the ground and he is definitely a legit BJJ black belt. I wouldn't be surprised to see him submit Batman, but I think he wins by decision.

I think Brock is a better fighter than Carwin even though Carwin has been extremely impressive. The one issue I have with Brock in this fight is his illness. I have no idea if he is where he was prior to getting sick. If he is I see him winning. If not it could go either way. One thing though is that neither fighter are polished on the feet, but they both have extraordinary power. All it would take is one good shot from either fighter, especially since both have been rocked in their career. I see Brock winning by TKO, but I would not be surprised to see Carwin win.

zrinkill

07-03-2010, 04:20 PM

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/354664/ufc116-poster_medium.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a185/glenner79/gorillas-fighting1.jpg

tyke1doe

07-03-2010, 07:15 PM

I wanna say Lesnar wins this, but he's been off awhile. Carwin takes it in a 2nd round TKO.

Hoofbite

07-03-2010, 08:29 PM

Any streams working?

Probably..........hasn't started yet......

BrAinPaiNt

07-03-2010, 09:01 PM

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a185/glenner79/gorillas-fighting1.jpg

That is a wicked arse pic.

SDogo

07-03-2010, 09:02 PM

Any streams working?

Probably..........hasn't started yet......

Not having much luck tonight :(

BrAinPaiNt

07-03-2010, 09:09 PM

http://www.channelsurfing.net/

Find the UFC links and pick the third or fourth one down.

SDogo

07-03-2010, 09:11 PM

http://www.channelsurfing.net/

Find the UFC links and pick the third or fourth one down.

Much appreciated

DavidS

07-03-2010, 09:20 PM

what time do u think Lesnar will finally be fighting?

kmp77

07-03-2010, 09:22 PM

cant find a stream either :(

casmith07

07-03-2010, 09:55 PM

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a185/glenner79/gorillas-fighting1.jpg

I can only imagine the strength in that fight. Unbelievable.

Hoofbite

07-03-2010, 10:18 PM

Did that guy just pimp a politician in his post-fight speech.

What an ***-hat.

Hostile

07-03-2010, 10:26 PM

Anyone have a working link?

xout

07-03-2010, 10:28 PM

http://www.channelsurfing.net/watch-ufc-116.html

UnoDallas

07-03-2010, 10:30 PM

http://www.channelsurfing.net/

got it working for me

MarionBarberThe4th

07-03-2010, 10:37 PM

So the other guy asked and no one gave him a link. Hos asked and 2 guys came rushing in

Gay

BTW ChannelSurfing.net has been perfect for me for months. Just bookmark it

kmp77

07-03-2010, 10:39 PM

Feeds just died :(

MarionBarberThe4th

07-03-2010, 10:41 PM

Did I jinx it

Hoofbite

07-03-2010, 10:41 PM

So the other guy asked and no one gave him a link. Hos asked and 2 guys came rushing in

Gay

BTW ChannelSurfing.net has been perfect for me for months. Just bookmark it

They simply reposted what was posted what BP posted just a few minutes prior to that guys request.

Literally, less than 15 minutes difference from BP posting it.

BrAinPaiNt

07-03-2010, 10:42 PM

Did I jinx it

I am getting my ban hammer ready...thanks for jinxing it for us all.:mad: :p: ;)

MarionBarberThe4th

07-03-2010, 10:45 PM

Got one in Spanish.

El Lesnar Smasha!

Hoofbite

07-03-2010, 10:45 PM

I've got a link. I'm not gonna claim credit for it.

One of the members here turned me onto it a while back. I'll throw some props when I figure out who it was.

If you need it, I'll PM but I don't wanna post it because I want it to stay up.

BrAinPaiNt

07-03-2010, 10:47 PM

This Leben/Akiyama (sp?) fight is pretty good.

Hoofbite

07-03-2010, 10:47 PM

It was Ren.

Pretty sure it was Ren.

Thank him for the link.

Hoofbite

07-03-2010, 10:48 PM

This Leben/Akiyama (sp?) fight is pretty good.

It really was.

Hostile

07-03-2010, 10:49 PM

So the other guy asked and no one gave him a link. Hos asked and 2 guys came rushing in

Gay

BTW ChannelSurfing.net has been perfect for me for months. Just bookmark itWhat is your problem with me?

That was a great fight.

MarionBarberThe4th

07-03-2010, 10:52 PM

It was Ren.

Pretty sure it was Ren.

Thank him for the link.

I would like it. I want a backup just in case

What is your problem with me?

That was a great fight.

What did I say?

Thought it was funny that people came running. That is all.

Dash28

07-03-2010, 10:55 PM

That was a great fight. Now it's time for the two beasts to collide.

Hostile

07-03-2010, 10:56 PM

What did I say?

Thought it was funny that people came running. That is all.Whatever. That was uncalled for man.

Hoofbite

07-03-2010, 10:58 PM

I'm ready to see these monsters mix it up.

Hoofbite

07-03-2010, 11:02 PM

uh oh, did the link die?

BrAinPaiNt

07-03-2010, 11:03 PM

uh oh, did the link die?

Mine went out.
:mad:

Hoofbite

07-03-2010, 11:07 PM

Guess the link is done. I thought it might have been a minor blackout to preserve the stream but it's not coming back from the looks of things.

MarionBarberThe4th

07-03-2010, 11:08 PM

I dont need Joe Rogan to tell me Brock is pounding this dude in the face anyway

Hostile

07-03-2010, 11:08 PM

Oh this blows.

Hoofbite

07-03-2010, 11:09 PM

ITS BACK!!!!!!

I knew IT!!

kmp77

07-03-2010, 11:11 PM

Last fight was good...home this one is too.

kmp77

07-03-2010, 11:13 PM

Brock is getting owned.

Jed_70

07-03-2010, 11:13 PM

Lesner is getting is *** handed to him here in the 1st round.

I'm loving it!

Heisenberg

07-03-2010, 11:13 PM

The speed of this fight dropped through the floor about 30 seconds in. :D

Hoofbite

07-03-2010, 11:14 PM

That initial like I sent out in PMs is working.

MarionBarberThe4th

07-03-2010, 11:14 PM

Can you imagine being the human being who can make Brock Lesnar sprint away from you and curl in a ball

Jed_70

07-03-2010, 11:14 PM

Lesnar is finding out the hard way that brute strength doesn't always work.

Jed_70

07-03-2010, 11:17 PM

Wow, Lesnar came back and tapped him out.

zrinkill

07-03-2010, 11:17 PM

LOL

Suck it you haters!!!!!!!

Heisenberg

07-03-2010, 11:17 PM

Ha. Go Lesnar. Nice.

zrinkill

07-03-2010, 11:17 PM

Lesnar is finding out the hard way that brute strength doesn't always work.

Oh really????

:lmao2:

BrAinPaiNt

07-03-2010, 11:19 PM

Well that sucks...I was hoping someone would win by a knockout.

MarionBarberThe4th

07-03-2010, 11:19 PM

Re- match! Re- match!Re- match!Re- match!Re- match!

Hoofbite

07-03-2010, 11:19 PM

Carwin had his chance but couldn't get finish.

He had Brock rocked to the core and just wasn't connecting enough to get the ref to step in.

Smith22

07-03-2010, 11:19 PM

Wow..............

Heisenberg

07-03-2010, 11:19 PM

Carwin was completely gassed after about 1 minute and basically did nothing the rest of the fight.

Jed_70

07-03-2010, 11:20 PM

Oh really????

:lmao2:

Yes, really.

He didn't use brute strength he used an actual grappling move for the win.

He couldn't just bowl over Carwin like he did Mir and others.

BrAinPaiNt

07-03-2010, 11:20 PM

I want to see a rematch.

xout

07-03-2010, 11:24 PM

Gotta love Brock... we definately need a rematch though.

Smith22

07-03-2010, 11:25 PM

Yes, really.

He didn't use brute strength he used an actual grappling move for the win.

He couldn't just bowl over Carwin like he did Mir and others.

Bottom line, if Lesnar gets you on the ground and gains position, you are in big trouble. His strength and sheer size and hard to overcome. Carwin was gassed after round 1.

Hoofbite

07-03-2010, 11:25 PM

I'm gonna admit. I didn't like Brock because he was still in WWE mode after his last win.

MMA from what I have seen is about being respectful for the man across from you.

I don't care how much **** talk is thrown back and forth, I thought Brock disregarded the respect aspect after his last match. Likely that Mir would have done the same and I don't like him either.

Seeing Brock come out and show a little more respect makes it a little easier to root for the guy.

Bonecrusher#31

07-03-2010, 11:25 PM

Way to go BROCK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

zrinkill

07-03-2010, 11:26 PM

Yes, really.

He didn't use brute strength he used an actual grappling move for the win.

He couldn't just bowl over Carwin like he did Mir and others.

No .... his brute strength turned a simple triangle choke (that Carwin would usually ignore) into a crushing move that was making Carwin pass out.

He actually won the fight faster than he beat Mir.

zrinkill

07-03-2010, 11:28 PM

I want to see a rematch.

I think it would go worse for Carwin next time.

Brock came out and thought he could trade blows in this match ...... he quickly learned he could not match Carwin in a punch out.

So he went back to ground and pound ..... and then submitted him.

If they fight again .... Brock will not be dumb enough to try and fight him upright.

BigWillie

07-03-2010, 11:30 PM

How in the heck do you train under Greg Jackson and have the cardio of a 85 year old guy with emphysema?

One thing about it - if Shane ever gets his cardio down, no one, including Brock, wants a piece of that guy.

Brock was incredibly, incredibly lucky that fight did not get stopped. I know, he was covering up. But even still, that's a position where quite a few refs stop the fight because the fighter is not moving to intelligently defend himself. Just laying there absorbing punishment in one position is not defending yourself.

Another thing - Brock's striking showed as I assumed it would. Only one time did I see him even attempt to change a level, and it was half-hearted at that. Guy really, really needs to refine his striking because he will not always be as lucky as he was tonight. His ginormous head saved him tonight. :)

Cain and Brock is interesting. Cain is basically a 240lbs version of Carwin, except that Cain has shown he can go all day with his cardio. Can Cain somehow keep it off the ground? If he can, the fight becomes really, really interesting and will likely favor Cain.

Hostile

07-03-2010, 11:30 PM

I don't care what anyone says, Lesnar is scary. How many guys could weather those kinds of punches? Carwin is a puncher and when he couldn't put Brock away in the 1st I knew he was in big trouble.

Once Brock got the take down and was on top. I knew it was over. I suspected it would be ground and pound, but Brock was too worn from the beating he took in the 1st. I knew he was going to submit him. That was a fun fight.

I'd like to see a rematch.

Cain Velazquez is next. I like him, but he doesn't punch like Carwin and I think he will be in trouble. Lesnar is just a monster.

Cool to see him show some humility after the fight.

zrinkill

07-03-2010, 11:32 PM

Can Cain somehow keep it off the ground? If he can, the fight becomes really, really interesting and will likely favor Cain.

I do not think so ..... Brock is just to fast.

zrinkill

07-03-2010, 11:32 PM

Cool to see him show some humility after the fight.

That was nice.

MarionBarberThe4th

07-03-2010, 11:35 PM

I think having 18 inch forearms also helped him coverup. There was a point in the end of the flurry where it was all arm Carwin was hitting.

BigWillie

07-04-2010, 12:02 AM

I do not think so ..... Brock is just to fast.

Well, lets be honest for a minute. Brock shot incredibly hard on Carwin and drove him into the cage, but could not get him down.

Brock got a gassed Carwin down easy in the 2nd round however.

Cain is a very, very, very accomplished wrestler. Also, Cain is extremely quick himself as evidenced in his past fights.

But like in every Brock fight, size will be the issue.

zrinkill

07-04-2010, 12:25 AM

Yes, really.

He didn't use brute strength he used an actual grappling move for the win.

He couldn't just bowl over Carwin like he did Mir and others.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/mma/2010-07-04-ufc-116_N.htm

In his last fight against Frank Mir, Lesnar finished with an unrelenting assault of punches on the ground. This time, Carwin defended the punches well.

Then came the unexpected. Lesnar wrapped his arms around Carwin's neck and arm. Carwin appeared to have the choke well-defended. But Lesnar squeezed and forced the submission through brute strength.

CATCH17

07-04-2010, 12:30 AM

Lesnar is finding out the hard way that brute strength doesn't always work.

:laugh2:

If Brock takes you down, including Fedor, it's over.

He just beat the only guy who can match him physically after a year layoff.

It's over now. The best Heavyweight in the world is Brock Lesnar.

Romo 2 Austin

07-04-2010, 12:36 AM

I was hoping he would suck so he would go back to wrestling. dam

Cover 2

07-04-2010, 12:47 AM

:laugh2:

If Brock takes you down, including Fedor, it's over.

He just beat the only guy who can match him physically after a year layoff.

It's over now. The best Heavyweight in the world is Brock Lesnar.
Yep. Brock may not be the most talented heavyweight, but he is the most physically gifted one.

Bob Sacamano

07-04-2010, 12:59 AM

Yep. Brock may not be the most talented heavyweight, but he is the most physically gifted one.

:huh:

Talented and physically gifted go together.

CATCH17

07-04-2010, 01:00 AM

Yep. Brock may not be the most talented heavyweight, but he is the most physically gifted one.

haha total contradiction but I get the pont.

He isn't the most technically sound heavyweight.

playmakers

07-04-2010, 01:02 AM

Brock tried to get Carwin down early but couldn't in which I was impressed. Carwin, the biggest, baddest puncher in the UFC, hit Lesnar with his entire aresonal and couldnt finish him. I knew it was over when Carwin was sitting on the bench between rounds and the look on his face was shock.

Brock can not be beat if he gets on top now. Mir got lucky when he didnt know what he was doing in there first fight and put a leg lock on him but now he knows how to disperse his weight safley and properly.

The only guy who can beat Brock is Shane Carwin. Even though he lost he deserve credit. Fedor doesnt look like he has the instinct any more and Cain Velesquez will get thrown around.

Cover 2

07-04-2010, 01:24 AM

:huh:

Talented and physically gifted go together.
Talented as in skill. Physically gifted refering to his size, strength, speed combination.

Rampage

07-04-2010, 01:52 AM

Lesner is getting is *** handed to him here in the 1st round.

I'm loving it!

Lesnar is finding out the hard way that brute strength doesn't always work.

Wow, Lesnar came back and tapped him out.
:lmao: ALL HAIL THE VANILLA GORILLA!

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2010-07/54745020.jpg

rkell87

07-04-2010, 02:32 AM

just got back from the bar. man what an awesome fight, i knew when carwin stopped punching in the first that he was in trouble. i didnt get to see who got fight of the night, could someone tell me? my vote was the leben fight.

DemonBlood

07-04-2010, 03:27 AM

DemonBlood

07-04-2010, 03:38 AM

Also, WAR STEPHAN BONNAR!

Jed_70

07-04-2010, 04:59 AM

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/mma/2010-07-04-ufc-116_N.htm

In his last fight against Frank Mir, Lesnar finished with an unrelenting assault of punches on the ground. This time, Carwin defended the punches well.

Then came the unexpected. Lesnar wrapped his arms around Carwin's neck and arm. Carwin appeared to have the choke well-defended. But Lesnar squeezed and forced the submission through brute strength.

I'm sticking with my assessment. ;)

BanditHiro

07-04-2010, 05:32 AM

Fight should have been stopped in the first. Brock has shown the world he can't hang with strikers on his feet. He look's so awkward when he is standing and striking. Dude really needs to just train striking for awhile and forget training wrestling. If he doesn't improve his striking he better shoot for a takedown at the start of every fight or he will get knocked out by someone with better cardio then Shane.

him winning the fight proves the fight should not have been stopped. unless it is shown he suffered severe brain trauma the ref made the right decision by letting the fight go-on

DemonBlood

07-04-2010, 05:56 AM

him winning the fight proves the fight should not have been stopped. unless it is shown he suffered severe brain trauma the ref made the right decision by letting the fight go-on

Hilarious. So fighters that have had their fights stopped for much less should be pissed then? You know, because maybe if the refs let them get pounded on for a few more minutes they could have got saved by the bell? They then could have maybe regain their composure in the corner, shook the cobwebs out of their heads and then maybe they could have stole a win from the jaws of defeat? :laugh2:

Heisenberg

07-04-2010, 05:57 AM

him winning the fight proves the fight should not have been stopped. unless it is shown he suffered severe brain trauma the ref made the right decision by letting the fight go-on

That's exactly what I was thinking. If he went on to get his face pounded in the rest of the way, you could have argued for the stoppage there. He won though. There's really no argument at this point.

Heisenberg

07-04-2010, 05:58 AM

Hilarious. So fighters that have had their fights stopped for much less should be pissed then? You know, because maybe if the refs let them get pounded on for a few more minutes they could have got saved by the bell? They then could have maybe regain their composure in the corner, shook the cobwebs out of their heads and then maybe they could have stole a win from the jaws of defeat? :laugh2:

Sure they should be pissed. Carwin was only punching arms past those first couple of punches. Brock had it well defended and about 30 seconds later, when Carwin was completely gassed, it was obvious that the ref made the correct choice there.

DemonBlood

07-04-2010, 06:09 AM

Sure they should be pissed. Carwin was only punching arms past those first couple of punches. Brock had it well defended and about 30 seconds later, when Carwin was completely gassed, it was obvious that the ref made the correct choice there.

Yeah, obvious to oblivious Brock fanboys. Brock going into a fetal position means well defended? Brock himself said he didn't know where he was and he thought the ref was about to stop it on ESPN.

Heisenberg

07-04-2010, 06:14 AM

Yeah, obvious to oblivious Brock fanboys. Brock going into a fetal position means well defended? Brock himself said he didn't know where he was and he thought the ref was about to stop it on ESPN.

Per Lesnar:

"I just had to weather the storm," he said. "He's got some heavy shots. I just had to hang back. I knew he was getting tired. Each shot was less dramatic than the other, and I thought, 'I'll just let him go.'"

http://sports.espn.go.com/extra/mma/news/story?id=5352613

DemonBlood

07-04-2010, 06:28 AM

Per Lesnar:

"I just had to weather the storm," he said. "He's got some heavy shots. I just had to hang back. I knew he was getting tired. Each shot was less dramatic than the other, and I thought, 'I'll just let him go.'"

http://sports.espn.go.com/extra/mma/news/story?id=5352613

:laugh2: Of course that's what he is saying now. In the locker room right after the fight he said exactly what I said he said to Kenny Florian who was doing the interview. "I'll just let him go" hilarious. More like "I don't know what to do when I get hit so i'll just run backwards into the cage and crumble to the floor in a fetal position."

Hostile

07-04-2010, 07:05 AM

Yeah, obvious to oblivious Brock fanboys. Brock going into a fetal position means well defended? Brock himself said he didn't know where he was and he thought the ref was about to stop it on ESPN.
I'm not a Brock fanboy and all of these guys go into a defensive position when on their backs. If a guy is on his back, fight over? Tell that to both Leben and Lesnar you got submissions after being on their backs. Leben was still on his back.

DemonBlood

07-04-2010, 07:35 AM

I'm not a Brock fanboy and all of these guys go into a defensive position when on their backs. If a guy is on his back, fight over? Tell that to both Leben and Lesnar you got submissions after being on their backs. Leben was still on his back.

Where did I say if a guy is on his back it means fight over? Leben was not in the fetal position getting pounded with a bunch of unprotected shots and not intelligently defending himself. Big difference between having someone in your closed guard and being in the fetal position.

BanditHiro

07-04-2010, 08:39 AM

Hilarious. So fighters that have had their fights stopped for much less should be pissed then? You know, because maybe if the refs let them get pounded on for a few more minutes they could have got saved by the bell? They then could have maybe regain their composure in the corner, shook the cobwebs out of their heads and then maybe they could have stole a win from the jaws of defeat? :laugh2:

Yea they usually are pissed after their fights are stopped, and fans cry about it too.

but anyways what do you care you what i or anyone in the thread says, you are just a troll (proved it by calling the other poster a fanboy).

big dog cowboy

07-04-2010, 08:44 AM

Cool to see him show some humility after the fight.
I'm guessing the one finger salutes didn't come out this time?

BanditHiro

07-04-2010, 08:50 AM

I'm guessing the one finger salutes didn't come out this time?

nearly dying twice can humble a person i guess.

TheCount

07-04-2010, 09:09 AM

Carwin made the mistake of thinking Brock was just going to be another of those first round victims.

When he was fresh, his takedown defense was good, and he was pretty much dictating the fight. As soon as he got gassed it was over.

They really could have stopped the fight early, but it was for the belt so you knew that wasn't going to happen. No point arguing about it. I was definately surprised by the fact that Lesnar basically started running and cowering when he couldn't take Carwin down initially, it looked to me like he was panicking.

I think Cain is more disciplined than Carwin, so he's not going to gas himself but I don't see how he can get out of a bad position if he ends up on the ground with Brock on top of him.

CATCH17

07-04-2010, 09:52 AM

jchap

07-04-2010, 10:01 AM

God forbid these guys condition properly to go more than one round. Still too many amature meat heads in MMA. The same thing happened in the middleweight fight.

zrinkill

07-04-2010, 10:01 AM

Yeah, obvious to oblivious Brock fanboys. Brock going into a fetal position means well defended? Brock himself said he didn't know where he was and he thought the ref was about to stop it on ESPN.

:lmao2:

Brock never said that .... stop making crap up to try and prove your point.

Brock had that barrage very well defended ..... even Shane said he new he was not doing any damage when he got him against the cage.

Doomsday

07-04-2010, 10:52 AM

God forbid these guys condition properly to go more than one round. Still too many amature meat heads in MMA. The same thing happened in the middleweight fight.

That is still the biggest hurdle of MMA, but the more popular the sport becomes the more top notch athletes you will see in it. It always amazes me how someone who wants to do this as a career could be so out of shape.

Carwin was clearly the more accomplished fighter but that doesnt mean jack if you get gassed half way through round one.

neosapien23

07-04-2010, 11:01 AM

Where did I say if a guy is on his back it means fight over? Leben was not in the fetal position getting pounded with a bunch of unprotected shots and not intelligently defending himself. Big difference between having someone in your closed guard and being in the fetal position.

Dude quit crying because Lesnar won the biggest fight of his young career and your boy Fedor laid an egg against a much less dangerous opponent than Carwin. Right now Lesnar is the undisputed number 1 heavy weight in the world and will be until Fedor steps in the ring against him. Yes Lesnar was getting pounded in the 1st, but he never went limp. Frank Mir took way more punishment than Lesnar did and the ref let it go until he was completely flattened by Carwin.

neosapien23

07-04-2010, 11:04 AM

That is still the biggest hurdle of MMA, but the more popular the sport becomes the more top notch athletes you will see in it. It always amazes me how someone who wants to do this as a career could be so out of shape.

Carwin was clearly the more accomplished fighter but that doesnt mean jack if you get gassed half way through round one.

Carwin is too smart for his own good. If he ever wants to be the best heavyweight in the world, he is going to have to give up his engineering job and focus solely on MMA. I find it amazing that someone who hasn't fought in over a year and had a serious disease was in better shape than someone who has been keeping busy. Lesnar won this fight because he was in much better shape.

Hostile

07-04-2010, 11:14 AM

I'm guessing the one finger salutes didn't come out this time?Here's what he said.

"This isn't about me tonight," said Lesnar, who made his first appearance in nearly a year. "This is about my family. This is about my doctors. This is about my training partners, my training staff. I am blessed by God. Ladies and gentlemen, I stand before you a humble champion. And I'm still the toughest SOB around, baby."

Hostile

07-04-2010, 11:23 AM

Where did I say if a guy is on his back it means fight over? Leben was not in the fetal position getting pounded with a bunch of unprotected shots and not intelligently defending himself. Big difference between having someone in your closed guard and being in the fetal position.No matter how you spin it, you are wrong. It's wrong to call people fanboys just because you don't like Lesnar, and you are wrong about stopping the fight. The announcers didn't even think it was going to be stopped. In fact they said he was punching himself out. Yeah, he landed some shots. No duh. No one misses every shot and the guy on the bottom always has to defend himself and Brock had to. You are wrong. Period.

big dog cowboy

07-04-2010, 11:26 AM

Here's what he said.

"This isn't about me tonight," said Lesnar, who made his first appearance in nearly a year. "This is about my family. This is about my doctors. This is about my training partners, my training staff. I am blessed by God. Ladies and gentlemen, I stand before you a humble champion. And I'm still the toughest SOB around, baby."
I'm very happy to read that. Sounds like he finally got an attitude adjustment and appreciates things a lot more.

Cover 2

07-04-2010, 11:52 AM

God forbid these guys condition properly to go more than one round. Still too many amature meat heads in MMA. The same thing happened in the middleweight fight.
Regarding heavyweight fights they're naturally going to gas faster because of their size.

CATCH17

07-04-2010, 12:48 PM

What I want to know is what fighters are going to do when Lesnar puts that big arm around you and controls your head.

So far he has knocked out Mir from that position and he has submitted Carwin.

That may very well be the most difficult thing to escape from in MMA right now.

Sorry Fedor

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/488643/ept_sports_mma_experts-812937213-1277611535_medium.jpg

TheCount

07-04-2010, 01:29 PM

That is still the biggest hurdle of MMA, but the more popular the sport becomes the more top notch athletes you will see in it. It always amazes me how someone who wants to do this as a career could be so out of shape.

Carwin was clearly the more accomplished fighter but that doesnt mean jack if you get gassed half way through round one.

I don't think it's always an issue of being in shape.

You can be in great shape and still get gassed easily, just because fighting cardio is different from regular cardio.

Brock and Carwin might be able to run all day on a treadmill, but that's very different conditioning from an actual fight. It's always harder when you have all that meat to pump blood through too.

But yeah, in general the lighter weight guys put on better fights. Some of the WEC fights are balls to the wall the whole bout. I can't wait for the UFC to officially absorb them, I think people will be shocked by how exciting those fights are.

CATCH17

07-04-2010, 01:32 PM

I don't think it's always an issue of being in shape.

You can be in great shape and still get gassed easily, just because fighting cardio is different from regular cardio.

Brock and Carwin might be able to run all day on a treadmill, but that's very different conditioning from an actual fight. It's always harder when you have all that meat to pump blood through too.

Carwin trains in Rashads camp so its hard to believe he would have terrible cardio.

I think your right about his fighting cardio.

neosapien23

07-04-2010, 01:41 PM

Carwin trains in Rashads camp so its hard to believe he would have terrible cardio.

I think your right about his fighting cardio.

I don't think Carwin trained as hard as Lesnar. All Lesnar does is fight. That's how he feeds his family. Carwin on the other hand is very intelligent and is an engineer. How many hours did Carwin work a day during his training camp? Brock took a beating in the first round and yet he looked better than Carwin who was completely gassed. I understand that big guys tire easier but it was obvious that Lesnar was in better condition.

CATCH17

07-04-2010, 01:43 PM

I don't think Carwin trained as hard as Lesnar. All Lesnar does is fight. That's how he feeds his family. Carwin on the other hand is very intelligent and is an engineer. How many hours did Carwin work a day during his training camp? Brock took a beating in the first round and yet he looked better than Carwin who was completely gassed. I understand that big guys tire easier but it was obvious that Lesnar was in better condition.

Oh yeah I agree.

Outside of Lesnars athleticism his cardio may be he 2nd best attribute.

For a guy that big he doesn't wear out.

zrinkill

07-04-2010, 02:14 PM

Oh yeah I agree.

Outside of Lesnars athleticism his cardio may be he 2nd best attribute.

For a guy that big he doesn't wear out.

Years of fake wrestling 30 minute matches with guys as big as him had to help

CATCH17

07-04-2010, 02:18 PM

Years of fake wrestling 30 minute matches with guys as big as him had to help

That and he conditions himself like a mad man.

h6k1LxVogkQ

Rampage

07-04-2010, 02:30 PM

Ren

07-04-2010, 02:30 PM

Years of fake wrestling 30 minute matches with guys as big as him had to help

I can think of a few other things that probably helped too, at least he didn't roidrage after the fight this time.

He won't have that belt very long unless he learns to fight standing, he reminds of of Coleman back in the day

Cover 2

07-04-2010, 02:41 PM

guys, Carwin(a 270 pound man) has never let an opponent out of the 1st round. he hurt Lesnar like he has all his other opponents and proceeded to give everything he had for 3 and a half minutes to try and finish him off. If any of you have a punching bag go punch it with everything you have for 3 and a half minutes without stopping. then rest for 1 minute and start doing it again and tell me you seriously aren't gassed.
Good point. Also everything takes cardio in MMA. Trying to get the takedown and defending the takedown require more cardio than most people realize. Also the ground game tires you out even more than the stand up (at least it does me), because it's a constant battle for position.

MMA requires multiple kinds of cardio. You have to have long distance cardio, you have to be able to go in spurts, and your muscles can't tire out from constantly being worked.

Ren

07-04-2010, 02:59 PM

guys, Carwin(a 270 pound man) has never let an opponent out of the 1st round. he hurt Lesnar like he has all his other opponents and proceeded to give everything he had for 3 and a half minutes to try and finish him off. If any of you have a punching bag go punch it with everything you have for 3 and a half minutes without stopping. then rest for 1 minute and start doing it again and tell me you seriously aren't gassed.

Of course your average person will be gassed, but if you're a professional fighter you should be able to do that just fine.
We used to have a very similar drill back when i did muay thai at the end of every work out, go all out for 3x 3min with 30 sec rest in between. Do that at the end of every workout and over time you should get trough at the very least round 1 fairly easily. It's really no excuse for professional fighters at that level to be that gassed after 1 round unless you're on the receiving end of it.

Rampage

07-04-2010, 03:10 PM

Good point. Also everything takes cardio in MMA. Trying to get the takedown and defending the takedown require more cardio than most people realize. Also the ground game tires you out even more than the stand up (at least it does me), because it's a constant battle for position.

MMA requires multiple kinds of cardio. You have to have long distance cardio, you have to be able to go in spurts, and your muscles can't tire out from constantly being worked.
exactly. not only the punches but defending Brock's takedowns in the 1st and having a guy the size of Brock on top of you will where you down. and i'm not even including the adrenaline rush of fighting live on ppv,under the lights, in front of all those people with the hype that fight had. you can not train for the adrenaline rush you get in there. just ask Rampage about his last fight.
Of course your average person will be gassed, but if you're a professional fighter you should be able to do that just fine.
We used to have a very similar drill back when i did muay thai at the end of every work out, go all out for 3x 3min with 30 sec rest in between. Do that at the end of every workout and over time you should get trough at the very least round 1 fairly easily. It's really no excuse for professional fighters at that level to be that gassed after 1 round unless you're on the receiving end of it.
most pro fighters aren't 275 pounds of muscle.

Ren

07-04-2010, 03:25 PM

most pro fighters aren't 275 pounds of muscle.

Brock is, nearly anyways, so that theory can be put to rest, getting hit takes more out of you then doing the hitting so size can't be that limiting

Carwin wasn't in very good shape and it got exposed big time, he can, should and probably will work on improving that because it is possible even with his size

CATCH17

07-04-2010, 03:30 PM

Brock is, nearly anyways, so that theory can be put to rest, getting hit takes more out of you then doing the hitting so size can't be that limiting

Carwin wasn't in very good shape and it got exposed big time, he can, should and probably will work on improving that because it is possible even with his size

No because Brock is a freak of nature.

Ren

07-04-2010, 03:34 PM

No because Brock is a freak of roids.

;)

I'm sure that's what you meant to say

TheCount

07-04-2010, 03:35 PM

Of course your average person will be gassed, but if you're a professional fighter you should be able to do that just fine.
We used to have a very similar drill back when i did muay thai at the end of every work out, go all out for 3x 3min with 30 sec rest in between. Do that at the end of every workout and over time you should get trough at the very least round 1 fairly easily. It's really no excuse for professional fighters at that level to be that gassed after 1 round unless you're on the receiving end of it.

It's not like Carwin quit on the stool, he was just tired like anyone (professional fighters included) would be after going all out for 3 minutes straight. He obviously was prepared for the takedown but his defense technique wasn't perfect ONCE and Brock was all over him.

zrinkill

07-04-2010, 03:47 PM

;)

I'm sure that's what you meant to say

Nope .....

Brocks a freak of nature ....

And no matter how much you wish it .... or how much you say he is gonna get beat .... he is the best the MMA world has to offer.

Ren

07-04-2010, 03:49 PM

Nope .....

Brocks a freak of nature ....

And no matter how much you wish it .... or how much you say he is gonna get beat .... he is the best the MMA world has to offer.

Pleas tell me you're joking :lmao:

CATCH17

07-04-2010, 04:05 PM

Pleas tell me you're joking :lmao:

He's not the most skilled fighter in MMA but he is the funnest to watch for sure.

It used to be Anderson Silva but something got into him and he wants to dance and throw 2 punches a fight.

But I wouldn't roll around laughing at people who say Lesnar is the best in the business. He is the best Heavyweight in the business, as of now, for sure.

zrinkill

07-04-2010, 04:09 PM

Pleas tell me you're joking :lmao:

No I am not .... you have said every fight that Brock cannot win ....

And he keeps winning.

You are too biased to see the truth.

He will crush Fedor if they ever fight .... and you will come of with some other lame excuse on why he won.

neosapien23

07-04-2010, 04:27 PM

Of course your average person will be gassed, but if you're a professional fighter you should be able to do that just fine.
We used to have a very similar drill back when i did muay thai at the end of every work out, go all out for 3x 3min with 30 sec rest in between. Do that at the end of every workout and over time you should get trough at the very least round 1 fairly easily. It's really no excuse for professional fighters at that level to be that gassed after 1 round unless you're on the receiving end of it.

Exactly what I was thinking. I do understand muscles take alot more oxygen to feed but Carwin's cardio was exposed. When I was in the army, we would do as many push up as we could muster in 2 minutes and I would max out at about 80, we would then do as many situps as we could do in 2 minutes, I would usually hit about 76. We would then run 2 miles which I use to finish at about 12 minutes and 30 seconds. I can't do that stuff anymore as I am no longer a soldier, but a professional fighter should have been in better shape period even if he went all out for 3 minutes.

Ren

07-04-2010, 04:35 PM

No I am not .... you have said every fight that Brock cannot win ....

And he keeps winning.

You are too biased to see the truth.

He will crush Fedor if they ever fight .... and you will come of with some other lame excuse on why he won.

:lmao2:

This coming from the guy who just said Brock was the best in MMA :lmao:

Shogun, as well as quite a few others in the LHW division, better fighters then Brock
Silva, MUCH better fighter then Brock
GSP, MUCH better fighter then Brock
Penn, even without a belt, much better fighter then Brock

Brock is the best HW in MMA right now but let's be real here some of these guys have more title defenses then Brock has fights, Brock has a long way to go before he's the best in the biz

jchap

07-04-2010, 04:42 PM

Exactly what I was thinking. I do understand muscles take alot more oxygen to feed but Carwin's cardio was exposed. When I was in the army, we would do as many push up as we could muster in 2 minutes and I would max out at about 80, we would then do as many situps as we could do in 2 minutes, I would usually hit about 76. We would then run 2 miles which I use to finish at about 12 minutes and 30 seconds. I can't do that stuff anymore as I am no longer a soldier, but a professional fighter should have been in better shape period even if he went all out for 3 minutes.

The people here contending that anyone would be gassed after going all out for 3 minutes may be right. Boxers get gassed too if they throw wild haymakers for a full round (see david haye for example :P). The difference is, elite boxers know how to press an attack with efficiency and intelligence so that they don't get gassed and are more effective. It once again comes down to the amateurish level of MMA currently where big strong meatheads can dominate because they are big strong meatheads. It has something to do with the nature of the sport but also to do with the relative immaturity of the sport with respect to traditional ones like boxing.

Cover 2

07-04-2010, 04:51 PM

The people here contending that anyone would be gassed after going all out for 3 minutes may be right. Boxers get gassed too if they throw wild haymakers for a full round (see david haye for example :P). The difference is, elite boxers know how to press an attack with efficiency and intelligence so that they don't get gassed and are more effective. It once again comes down to the amateurish level of MMA currently where big strong meatheads can dominate because they are big strong meatheads. It has something to do with the nature of the sport but also to do with the relative immaturity of the sport with respect to traditional ones like boxing.
You have no idea what you're talking about.

Hostile

07-04-2010, 05:02 PM

guys, Carwin(a 270 pound man) has never let an opponent out of the 1st round. he hurt Lesnar like he has all his other opponents and proceeded to give everything he had for 3 and a half minutes to try and finish him off. If any of you have a punching bag go punch it with everything you have for 3 and a half minutes without stopping. then rest for 1 minute and start doing it again and tell me you seriously aren't gassed.I boxed as a kid and I agree. If you watch the fight it is obvious some of his punches had no power left in them after about 3 minutes of that fight. Heck at 2 minutes in you see a lot less power. The elbows however, were vicious. I think he needed one of those to end the fight. When it didn't, he was in trouble.

One last note, int he 1st round they did not touch gloves. They did in the 2nd. I think Brock respected him for beating him like that and I think he respected Brock for taking that beating.

jchap

07-04-2010, 05:09 PM

You have no idea what you're talking about.

You're right. I'm sure there are tons of sports where someone who has no relevant experience other than a decade old vaguely related amateur background could come in and instantly be established the best in the world. Face it, this guy was fighting a mechanical engineer. This sport is still incredibly immature. That is not to say it won't change, because as the money gets better it will.

Cover 2

07-04-2010, 05:29 PM

neosapien23

07-04-2010, 05:33 PM

Ren

07-04-2010, 05:57 PM

You're right. I'm sure there are tons of sports where someone who has no relevant experience other than a decade old vaguely related amateur background could come in and instantly be established the best in the world. Face it, this guy was fighting a mechanical engineer. This sport is still incredibly immature. That is not to say it won't change, because as the money gets better it will.

Since K-1 is somewhat of a middle ground between boxing and MMA you should look up how some boxers have done in K-1

Here's how some MMA fighters have done in K-1

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Badr hari was the K-1 HW champ at the time of this fight

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Musashi is a 2 time K-1 world GP finalist

Both these guys are considered good K-1 fighter

Former HW boxing champ trying his luck

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Fujimoto is pretty average, Badr Hari they guy in the first video who lost to a MMA fighter KO'd him in less then a minute

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Mighty Mo is not considered very good, he's somewhat of a joke

There's plenty more Botha Fail if you wanna look it up. If Boxers are so much better then MMA fighters then surly even a washed up former champ should be able to beat average K-1 fighters in K-1 rules when these "amateurish" MMA fighters can beat some of the best in K-1

Another Boxer trying his luck

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Boxing really only works in Boxing, the stance in boxing exposes that front leg while they got their weight on it and it never ends well, you really got to cross train before you can even compete and if you start cross training then you're really doing MMA. Pure boxing will never work regardless of how skilled they are because it's to limited and have some fundamental weaknesses when faced with different styles of fighting

There are plenty more examples of both MMA fighters and boxers in K-1 with similar results

jchap

07-04-2010, 09:32 PM

TheCount

07-04-2010, 11:31 PM

Botha in his prime was knocked out by a faded and way over the hill Tyson. He was a B level fighter at his peak and is way below that since.

It goes both ways though. I'm 100% positive Lesner couldn't make it 3 rounds with even mid level HW's in boxing. The two sports aren't translatable.

My argument was never that MMA was an inferior sport to boxing, only that it is still in its infancy compared to boxing and that the skill and training levels will continue to go up as the purses get higher and it becomes a more viable career path as opposed to a hobby.

You've already seen some of that.

We're now getting out first generation of new fighters in MMA that STARTED training as MMA Fighters. Just wait till athletes that would normally have gotten into football or basketball start joining the ranks, the athleticism will go through the roof. People like to think Brock is unique, but there are guys all over the world in professional sports that mix tremendous size and athleticism with quickness.

Imagine a guy like Ratliff training from day 1 as an MMA fighter, with that tenacity, intensity and athleticism he'd be right up there where Brock is now. Or a Lebron James even

(Un)fortunately for a lot of those guys, they didn't fail at the sport they grew up playing so they'll never have that opportunity but some guys will choose that route once the money and fame is there.

Rampage

07-05-2010, 12:44 AM

:lmao2:

This coming from the guy who just said Brock was the best in MMA :lmao:

Shogun, as well as quite a few others in the LHW division, better fighters then Brock
Silva, MUCH better fighter then Brock
GSP, MUCH better fighter then Brock
Penn, even without a belt, much better fighter then Brock

Brock is the best HW in MMA right now but let's be real here some of these guys have more title defenses then Brock has fights, Brock has a long way to go before he's the best in the biz
I can't believe you said that. I am one of the biggest Lesnar fans but Fedor is still #1 in my opinion. shame on you, Ren. of and why didn't you post the rematch between Hari and Overeem?;)
I boxed as a kid and I agree. If you watch the fight it is obvious some of his punches had no power left in them after about 3 minutes of that fight. Heck at 2 minutes in you see a lot less power. The elbows however, were vicious. I think he needed one of those to end the fight. When it didn't, he was in trouble.

One last note, int he 1st round they did not touch gloves. They did in the 2nd. I think Brock respected him for beating him like that and I think he respected Brock for taking that beating.
That my friend was very cool to see. same with Carwin raising Brock's hand at the end. those guys put it all out there and respect was earned that night.
How much experience did Mike Tyson have when he won his first championship?

Antonio Gates didn't even play college football.

Some people just have an enormous amount of ability for a sport.

Lyoto Machida was a Brazilian Karate champion.

BJ Penn won the Mundials (World BJJ Championship) after only 3-4 years of training. Does this make BJJ any less of a sport?

Georges St Pierre has Canadians wanting him to wrestle for the Canadian Olympic team even though he has no prior experience except from MMA in it. Does this mean wrestling isn't a sport either?
1st American to ever do it:D

Hostile

07-05-2010, 12:50 AM

That my friend was very cool to see. same with Carwin raising Brock's hand at the end. those guys put it all out there and respect was earned that night.I gotta agree with you 100% on that.

Ren

07-05-2010, 05:51 AM

jchap

07-05-2010, 07:45 AM

Any sport where Botha can become a champ can't be that good either, see how that works, it goes both ways too

You still don't get it do you? Boxing is not MMA. No MMA fighter could have lasted any time at all with Botha in BOXING just like how Botha was not well suited for MMA.

Ren

07-05-2010, 09:39 AM

You still don't get it do you? Boxing is not MMA. No MMA fighter could have lasted any time at all with Botha in BOXING just like how Botha was not well suited for MMA.

so let me get this straight, boxer are *gasp* better boxers then MMA fighters? :eek:

Way to state the obvious

How ever that was never my point, you brought up how much more skilled fighters boxers are yet every time they try their luck at any thing other then boxing they don't fare to well, the amateurish (your words not mine) MMA fighters do much better.

How can that be if boxers are the superior fighters they're unable to excel at any fighting sport other then boxing while MMA fighters are?
Surely a sport where in your words any skilless beefcake can excel should be easy for these superior fighters

MarionBarberThe4th

07-05-2010, 12:58 PM

I dont know if Brocks stand up will ever get much better. His arms are so huge he just cant throw crisp punches.

So after Brock beats Cain he gets Carwin again or?.........

Chocolate Lab

07-05-2010, 01:37 PM

I remember when Lesnar went to Vikings training camp and lasted about two weeks. LOL.

MarionBarberThe4th

07-05-2010, 01:45 PM

I remember when Lesnar went to Vikings training camp and lasted about two weeks. LOL.

He almost made the team

zrinkill

07-05-2010, 02:23 PM

He almost made the team

Yup .... they wanted to send him to NFL Europe ..... but he declined.

big dog cowboy

07-05-2010, 06:43 PM

Yup .... they wanted to send him to NFL Europe ..... but he declined.
That is true. I really wish he would have went just to see if he could have made it in the NFL.

CATCH17

07-05-2010, 08:28 PM

Lol @ Fedor being the best heavyweight.

The guy is Boise State. He don't play nobody.

Rampage

07-05-2010, 08:35 PM

Lol @ Fedor being the best heavyweight.

The guy is Boise State. He don't play nobody.
who is Brock and his 5 wins? c'mon man, Brock is moving on up but he's not there yet.

CATCH17

07-05-2010, 10:22 PM

who is Brock and his 5 wins? c'mon man, Brock is moving on up but he's not there yet.

If he fought Fedor he would win.

He would get an inevitable take down, put the arm around his neck, and either punch him out (Mir) or tap him out (Carwin).

MarionBarberThe4th

07-05-2010, 10:43 PM

Isnt Carwin a way better puncher than Fedor?

If Carwin couldnt finish him who can?

CATCH17

07-05-2010, 11:03 PM

Isnt Carwin a way better puncher than Fedor?

If Carwin couldnt finish him who can?

Fedor would have to submit him which is possible unless Lesnar gets a take down.

Both guys could win the fight easy but if I had to pick i'd take Lesnar because he has more upside than anyone in MMA right now and Fedor couldn't defend his take down.

6 fights and is the world champ.

BigWillie

07-05-2010, 11:29 PM

I remember years ago when Arlovski was the UFC champ - Dana, Joe and more importantly, UFC fans everywhere questioned how could he be stopped? He had excellent standup, he had a good ground game. He was THE complete fighter who could not be stopped.

Then barely 2 years after he lost his belt to Sylvia, he was a bum and did not deserve to be in the UFC.

Ricco Rodriguez was that guy.

Randy Couture was that guy.

Frank Mir was that guy.

The list goes on and on of guys who people claim cannot be defeated as heavyweights, until they get defeated. Then they are JAG.

You could say GSP was unbeatable with his superior wrestling and striking - until Serra tested his chin.

Machida's defense was unparalled and no one could touch him. Until Shogun showed that high level Muay Thai can slow down anyone.

BJ Penn was reinvigorated and in-shape so he could not be beat, until Frankie Edgar out-pointed him.

This beating Lesnar took reminds me of the frenzy that came after Randleman dropped Fedor on his neck/head.

5K0OJ6-aauo

If you have never seen it, or cannot watch this video - Randleman has Fedor around the waist from his back while standing. Randleman suplexes Fedor in the air and literally drops Fedor on his neck/head.

It was a miracle he didn't knock Fedor out, much less break his neck. What made this legendary is that within 30 seconds of this happening Fedor went from the bottom to switching Randleman and getting top position. He then proceeded to sink a kimura and end the fight very quickly.

Now though, Fedor is washed up, and Brock is the flavor of the week.

It's the cycle of MMA.

Do I buy into the Lesnar hype? No. His last fight proved he has the ability to recover, but it also proved he still has flaws, and flaws that he has not corrected yet. Going into the fight Brock wanted to talk about his improved striking, but yet it looked awful still.

"But if Carwin cannot stop him, who can?"

Well, I'm going to ask you - if Fedor can lay inside the guard of Nog for 20 minutes, how the heck is Werdum going to catch him?

'Ish' happens. It's MMA. If someone catches Brock more cleanly than Carwin was able to, what is going to stop the fight from ending? For example, the elbow Carwin dropped. Brock was able to slightly deflect that elbow with his hand on it's way down. If he had not, do you think Brock takes that elbow cleanly to the chin and continues on?

Brock is a UNBELIEVABLY talented fighter in certain areas. But he is also EXTREMELY flawed in certain areas. Those flaws make him vulnerable regardless of any Ivan Drago hype he has on him.

DemonBlood

07-06-2010, 03:48 AM

:lmao2:

Brock never said that .... stop making crap up to try and prove your point.

Brock had that barrage very well defended ..... even Shane said he new he was not doing any damage when he got him against the cage.

Oh yeah, Brock never said that to Kenny? He said exactly what I said word for word...Here is the interview:

http://sherdogblog.craveonline.com:80/blog/2010-07-06#25498

DemonBlood

07-06-2010, 04:36 AM

No matter how you spin it, you are wrong. It's wrong to call people fanboys just because you don't like Lesnar, and you are wrong about stopping the fight. The announcers didn't even think it was going to be stopped. In fact they said he was punching himself out. Yeah, he landed some shots. No duh. No one misses every shot and the guy on the bottom always has to defend himself and Brock had to. You are wrong. Period.

Ugh, look Hostile, I respect you a lot and I'm a big fan of yours. You know more about football and life in general then I'll probably ever know. It's clear though that what I'm trying to point out to you as it pertains to MMA is going over your head.

I know you like to argue but I'm not going to argue with you on this subject. I believe the fight should have been stopped and you believe it should have not. Neither one of us will stop believing what we believe. End of story. Period.

Ren

07-06-2010, 07:10 AM

who is Brock and his 5 wins? c'mon man, Brock is moving on up but he's not there yet.

Fedor is only a part time member of the division at this point, the only thing of any relevance he's done in the last 2 years is to catapult Werdum into contention. That and he has a recent loss means he's not at the top and shouldn't be at the top any more

Isnt Carwin a way better puncher than Fedor?

No, Fedor is a way better puncher then Carwin

Rampage

07-06-2010, 08:44 AM

Fedor is only a part time member of the division at this point, the only thing of any relevance he's done in the last 2 years is to catapult Werdum into contention. That and he has a recent loss means he's not at the top and shouldn't be at the top any more

No, Fedor is a way better puncher then Carwin
so you're saying Brock and his 5 wins is the #1 hw in mma?

zrinkill

07-06-2010, 09:07 AM

so you're saying Brock and his 5 wins is the #1 hw in mma?

Yes .....

zrinkill

07-06-2010, 09:09 AM

Oh yeah, Brock never said that to Kenny? He said exactly what I said word for word...Here is the interview:

http://sherdogblog.craveonline.com:80/blog/2010-07-06#25498

I will listen too that when I get home ..... but I see you left out the word "second" in your most likely very biased opinion on what was said.

Ren

07-06-2010, 09:20 AM

so you're saying Brock and his 5 wins is the #1 hw in mma?

Who else would be?

Fedor is coming off a loss he needs to at least beat a contender to be ranked #1 now and it's not even certain he'll fight again, he wants to get into Russian politics

I'm not denying his skill what i'm saying is his recent results don't warrant a #1 ranking

Rampage

07-06-2010, 09:29 AM

Who else would be?

Fedor is coming off a loss he needs to at least beat a contender to be ranked #1 now and it's not even certain he'll fight again, he wants to get into Russian politics

I'm not denying his skill what i'm saying is his recent results don't warrant a #1 ranking
guess we agree to disagree. also that Fedor and politics crap was just a rumor. Scott Coker also said Fedor vs Overeem is still a possibility. If Brock is the #1 HW(and I'm a huge Lesnar fan) than the hw still has a loooooooong way to go.

CATCH17

07-06-2010, 09:33 AM

Rampage

07-06-2010, 09:44 AM

this was taken from an article regarding the whole Fedor and his competition thing.

Of course, when those guys move on, as Andrei Arlovski did, exiting the UFC on a three-fight winning streak, then they become total nonentities.

Apparently it doesn't even matter that Arlovski added knockout victories over Ben Rothwell and Roy Nelson – the latter of whom is one win away from a UFC heavyweight title shot, according to White – before taking on Emelianenko. The mere fact that he was no longer a UFC fighter at the time seems to have made him worthless as an opponent by the time Emelianenko starched him in the first round.

It also doesn't seem to matter that Fedor was slated to take on Josh Barnett – then a top-five heavyweight – before Barnett's steroid debacle derailed the fight. Nor does it matter that not so long ago Emelianenko was aiming for a fight with Randy Couture – then the UFC heavyweight champ – before White and his team of lawyers put the kibosh on it.

Nope, all that matters is that Fedor won't fight the best. Though since the best are confined exclusively to the UFC, at least in White's mind, that's a little like criticizing Georges St. Pierre for fighting Dan Hardy instead of Jake Shields or Nick Diaz.

That's not to say that Emelianenko is beyond reproach. His record does feature such MMA punchlines as Hong Man Choi and Zuluzinho, with middleweight Matt Lindland sandwiched in there for good measure. And yes, his M-1 Global management team has at times seemed like a barrier between Fedor and the dream fights that fans want to see. There's no denying any of that.

At the same time, one surprising loss doesn't cancel out everything else he's accomplished in the sport. He beat Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic back when the Croatian (whose abilities White claims to respect now) was in his prime. He beat Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira twice. Doing so once, and against a declining version of the old "Minotauro," was enough to earn Cain Velasquez an impending title shot in the UFC.

And then there's Brock Lesnar and Shane Carwin, who have about half as many fights between the two of them as Emelianenko does in his storied career. Neither of them have faced the kind of steady diet of high-quality competition that Emelianenko did in his Pride days. At least not yet.

That's not a knock on them. They have, after all, faced the best available to them in the time available to them. But, with the possible exception of the Alistair Overeem bout, which still has yet to materialize, didn't Fedor do the same? Didn't he beat everyone he could possibly get in the ring with, and didn't he at least make an honest effort at getting in the ring with a few others?

zrinkill

07-06-2010, 09:50 AM

guess we agree to disagree. also that Fedor and politics crap was just a rumor. Scott Coker also said Fedor vs Overeem is still a possibility. If Brock is the #1 HW(and I'm a huge Lesnar fan) than the hw still has a loooooooong way to go.

Brock has beat 2 former ufc heavy weight champions and 2 interim heavy weight champions in those 6 fights.

Fedor has fought Tim Sylvia and Crop Top and about 30 other guys who Brock would beat the **** out of. And was beat by a European Jiu-Jitsu champion.

CATCH17

07-06-2010, 10:23 AM

Ren

07-06-2010, 11:18 AM

Brock has beat 2 former ufc heavy weight champions and 2 interim heavy weight champions in those 6 fights.

Fedor has fought Tim Sylvia and Crop Top and about 30 other guys who Brock would beat the **** out of. And was beat by a European Jiu-Jitsu champion.

List of Former champions Fedor has beaten

Mark Coleman Former HW UFC champ, and 2 time UFC champ back when it was a tournament
Tim Silvia Former UFC HW champ
Arlovski Former UFC HW champ
Kevin Radleman Former UFC HW champ
Big Nog twice former Pride HW champ and interim UFC champ
Semmi Schilt 4 time K-1 world GP champ and 2 time K-1 Super heavy weight champ
Mark Hunt 2001 K-1 world GP champ
Crocop (in his prime) 2006 Pride open weight GP champion

This is only a small portion of Fedors carer, but somehow Brock's 5 wins are more impressive then this?
With the exception of Arlovski and Silvia Fedor beat most of these guys in their prime, your assumption that Brock could is purely wishful thinking, Brock has A LOT to prove still if he wants to be compared to the Greatest HW MMA fighter ever, lets see him go 5-6 years without losing first... (Fedor went 10)

:laugh2:

CATCH17

07-06-2010, 11:47 AM

List of Former champions Fedor has beaten

Mark Coleman Former HW UFC champ, and 2 time UFC champ back when it was a tournament
Tim Silvia Former UFC HW champ
Arlovski Former UFC HW champ
Kevin Radleman Former UFC HW champ
Big Nog twice former Pride HW champ and interim UFC champ
Semmi Schilt 4 time K-1 world GP champ and 2 time K-1 Super heavy weight champ
Mark Hunt 2001 K-1 world GP champ
Crocop (in his prime) 2006 Pride open weight GP champion

This is only a small portion of Fedors carer, but somehow Brock's 5 wins are more impressive then this?
With the exception of Arlovski and Silvia Fedor beat most of these guys in their prime, your assumption that Brock could is purely wishful thinking, Brock has A LOT to prove still if he wants to be compared to the Greatest HW MMA fighter ever, lets see him go 5-6 years without losing first... (Fedor went 10)

:laugh2:

Who cares?

Nobody is saying Brock is as skilled as Fedor. Brock isn't even as skilled as Mir.

But if Brock and Fedor step in the cage, in a fight, Lesnar is going to win the fight unless Fedor gets a lucky submission somehow.

The fact that the 2 are so close right now and Lesnar still being extremely young in his career should tell you who the better fighter is.

BraveHeartFan

07-06-2010, 12:38 PM

Lesner is getting is *** handed to him here in the 1st round.

I'm loving it!

I'm guessing you didn't love the 2nd round nearly as much.

LOL

Suck it you haters!!!!!!!

That's exactly what I said the moment he submited Carwin.

Don't get me wrong I really like Carwin to, he's fun to watch, but I was definately going for Brock in this fight.

Carwin had his chance but couldn't get finish.

He had Brock rocked to the core and just wasn't connecting enough to get the ref to step in.

Exactly.

Those folks wanting it stopped I can see why they did, they often do stop fights when a guy just lays there and covers up.

I think there is one small thing Brock did, however, that kept that from happening. A couple of times he simply reached up and grabbed at the arms, to try and stop some stuff, showing that he was intending to try and defend himself. I think that little bit of arm move kept the ref from every thinking about stopping it.

And heres the other thing. Instead of worrying about what the ref did wrong how about worrying about what Carwin did wrong. At that point it would have been to his advantage, since he clearly wasn't landing too many good shots to Lesnars head on the ground, and was mainly hitting Lesnars huge arms, to simply stand up and make Brock get back up.

Instead he tried to bull his way into a G&P victory and gassed himself.

Yes, really.

He didn't use brute strength he used an actual grappling move for the win.

He couldn't just bowl over Carwin like he did Mir and others.

He used his size and strength to tighten that hold into the point where Carwin had to tap and to hold Carwin in the position in the first place.

But also credit a big part of that to Carwin being gassed as well. There is no doubt that Carwin gassed himself.

Bottom line, if Lesnar gets you on the ground and gains position, you are in big trouble. His strength and sheer size and hard to overcome. Carwin was gassed after round 1.

Brock is going to be tough for anyone and everyone who he gets on the ground and is on top of. He's just so big and strong that it will be very hard to control or stop Brock.

I'm gonna admit. I didn't like Brock because he was still in WWE mode after his last win.

MMA from what I have seen is about being respectful for the man across from you.

I don't care how much **** talk is thrown back and forth, I thought Brock disregarded the respect aspect after his last match. Likely that Mir would have done the same and I don't like him either.

Seeing Brock come out and show a little more respect makes it a little easier to root for the guy.

I think the Mir stuff was nothing more than because Mir talked so much junk prior to the fight, and pretty much disrespected Brock in every way possible. Saying he couldn't punch hard, couldn't hurt him, and even going so far as to stop during interviews to tell Brock he'd explain to him later what it was he's talking about since he doesn't know MMA.

Mir brought that reaction on by running his mouth. Brock didn't act like that toward Herring or Couture.

I think it would go worse for Carwin next time.

Brock came out and thought he could trade blows in this match ...... he quickly learned he could not match Carwin in a punch out.

So he went back to ground and pound ..... and then submitted him.

If they fight again .... Brock will not be dumb enough to try and fight him upright.

I think that could be the case as well. I believe Carwin had his best shot Saturday and blew it. I can't imagine Brock will make any real attempt to stand with him in a second fight. He'll take a totally different approach and I think it would be even more troubling for Carwin.

How in the heck do you train under Greg Jackson and have the cardio of a 85 year old guy with emphysema?

One thing about it - if Shane ever gets his cardio down, no one, including Brock, wants a piece of that guy.

Brock was incredibly, incredibly lucky that fight did not get stopped. I know, he was covering up. But even still, that's a position where quite a few refs stop the fight because the fighter is not moving to intelligently defend himself. Just laying there absorbing punishment in one position is not defending yourself.

Another thing - Brock's striking showed as I assumed it would. Only one time did I see him even attempt to change a level, and it was half-hearted at that. Guy really, really needs to refine his striking because he will not always be as lucky as he was tonight. His ginormous head saved him tonight. :)

Cain and Brock is interesting. Cain is basically a 240lbs version of Carwin, except that Cain has shown he can go all day with his cardio. Can Cain somehow keep it off the ground? If he can, the fight becomes really, really interesting and will likely favor Cain.

Cain won't be able to keep it off the ground. He'll basically have the exact same trouble Mir did in keeping it off the ground, which is to say he can't.

I don't care what anyone says, Lesnar is scary. How many guys could weather those kinds of punches? Carwin is a puncher and when he couldn't put Brock away in the 1st I knew he was in big trouble.

Once Brock got the take down and was on top. I knew it was over. I suspected it would be ground and pound, but Brock was too worn from the beating he took in the 1st. I knew he was going to submit him. That was a fun fight.

I'd like to see a rematch.

Cain Velazquez is next. I like him, but he doesn't punch like Carwin and I think he will be in trouble. Lesnar is just a monster.

Cool to see him show some humility after the fight.

Good post. I liked the humility as well.

:laugh2:

If Brock takes you down, including Fedor, it's over.

He just beat the only guy who can match him physically after a year layoff.

It's over now. The best Heavyweight in the world is Brock Lesnar.

I think he's certainly one of the top 2 HWs in the world. I wouldn't argue against him at 1 but I can't say that I wouldn't give Werdum a serious look for that right now just based off the fact that he did beat the guy whose been the #1 HW for a long time. I wouldn't be opposed to some ranking Werdum #1.

Fight should have been stopped in the first. Brock has shown the world he can't hang with strikers on his feet. He look's so awkward when he is standing and striking. Dude really needs to just train striking for awhile and forget training wrestling. If he doesn't improve his striking he better shoot for a takedown at the start of every fight or he will get knocked out by someone with better cardio then Shane.

I doubt that. The cardio isn't the only problem other fighters will have. There isn't anyone in the HW's in UFC right that is going to hit as hard as Carwin so they're likely not going to test his chin like anyone else. The other problem is that there aren't too many other HWs in the world that are as big as Carwin. Without that size, to stuff some take downs, the smaller guys are going to be taken down and thus completely take away their chance to catch him with their stand up striking.

Hilarious. So fighters that have had their fights stopped for much less should be pissed then? You know, because maybe if the refs let them get pounded on for a few more minutes they could have got saved by the bell? They then could have maybe regain their composure in the corner, shook the cobwebs out of their heads and then maybe they could have stole a win from the jaws of defeat? :laugh2:

If Lesnar hadn't reached up with his arms a couple of times I do think the ref might of stopped it. But by reaching up like that a couple of times, and then going back to covering up, and then reaching up, kept the ref from stopping it.

Carwin should have did the smart thing and got back up, made Brock get back up, and went after him then. Instead he gassed himself punching Brock's arms.

:laugh2: Of course that's what he is saying now. In the locker room right after the fight he said exactly what I said he said to Kenny Florian who was doing the interview. "I'll just let him go" hilarious. More like "I don't know what to do when I get hit so i'll just run backwards into the cage and crumble to the floor in a fetal position."

Saying now? That's exactly what he said in the post fight interview in the middle of the octagon. It has nothing to do with what he's saying now. What they posted up there were his comments immediately following the fight while still standing in the octagon.

Cain doesn't stand a chance.

He can't match up with Brock physically + Brock knocked off the ring rust last night.

The only reason Carwin stood a chance is because he is a bull himself.

If Brock gets on top of you it's over. Even if your name is Fedor.

Cain will have a very difficult time for sure. As will any HW who isn't 270 pounds or bigger with great wrestling and takedown defense.

Here's what he said.

"This isn't about me tonight," said Lesnar, who made his first appearance in nearly a year. "This is about my family. This is about my doctors. This is about my training partners, my training staff. I am blessed by God. Ladies and gentlemen, I stand before you a humble champion. And I'm still the toughest SOB around, baby."

I thought it was the best way for him to put all of it after that. I found it very cool that he mentioned everything the way he did.

guys, Carwin(a 270 pound man) has never let an opponent out of the 1st round. he hurt Lesnar like he has all his other opponents and proceeded to give everything he had for 3 and a half minutes to try and finish him off. If any of you have a punching bag go punch it with everything you have for 3 and a half minutes without stopping. then rest for 1 minute and start doing it again and tell me you seriously aren't gassed.

Exactly. Being that big if you just throw everything you've got for 3 solid minutes you're going to be pretty tired.

Of course your average person will be gassed, but if you're a professional fighter you should be able to do that just fine.
We used to have a very similar drill back when i did muay thai at the end of every work out, go all out for 3x 3min with 30 sec rest in between. Do that at the end of every workout and over time you should get trough at the very least round 1 fairly easily. It's really no excuse for professional fighters at that level to be that gassed after 1 round unless you're on the receiving end of it.

How big are you? People can argue that all they want but size makes a huge difference in that stuff. It's very rare that anyone as big as those guys that can go all out like that and still not be gassed. That's a lot of mass for those guys to carry around and will gas a guy a heck of a lot quicker.

:lmao2:

This coming from the guy who just said Brock was the best in MMA :lmao:

Shogun, as well as quite a few others in the LHW division, better fighters then Brock
Silva, MUCH better fighter then Brock
GSP, MUCH better fighter then Brock
Penn, even without a belt, much better fighter then Brock

Brock is the best HW in MMA right now but let's be real here some of these guys have more title defenses then Brock has fights, Brock has a long way to go before he's the best in the biz

Maybe the best HW right now, I can see people making others #1 as I said before, but I do agree that he isn't the best in MMA overall. There are several guys, and I agree with the guys you mentioned up there, who are much better PFP canidates and such, IMO.

I boxed as a kid and I agree. If you watch the fight it is obvious some of his punches had no power left in them after about 3 minutes of that fight. Heck at 2 minutes in you see a lot less power. The elbows however, were vicious. I think he needed one of those to end the fight. When it didn't, he was in trouble.

One last note, int he 1st round they did not touch gloves. They did in the 2nd. I think Brock respected him for beating him like that and I think he respected Brock for taking that beating.

Yeah that was really cool. The way Brock was smiling about it coming out. You could tell he was definately respectful and impressed with the power Carwin has and Carwin was impressed, probably shocked even, that Brock weathered all he had.

Isnt Carwin a way better puncher than Fedor?

If Carwin couldnt finish him who can?

Not at all. He probably has more power than Fedor but Fedor is a much more skilled striker. That isn't even close, IMO.

I remember years ago when Arlovski was the UFC champ - Dana, Joe and more importantly, UFC fans everywhere questioned how could he be stopped? He had excellent standup, he had a good ground game. He was THE complete fighter who could not be stopped.

Then barely 2 years after he lost his belt to Sylvia, he was a bum and did not deserve to be in the UFC.

Ricco Rodriguez was that guy.

Randy Couture was that guy.

Frank Mir was that guy.

The list goes on and on of guys who people claim cannot be defeated as heavyweights, until they get defeated. Then they are JAG.

You could say GSP was unbeatable with his superior wrestling and striking - until Serra tested his chin.

Machida's defense was unparalled and no one could touch him. Until Shogun showed that high level Muay Thai can slow down anyone.

BJ Penn was reinvigorated and in-shape so he could not be beat, until Frankie Edgar out-pointed him.

This beating Lesnar took reminds me of the frenzy that came after Randleman dropped Fedor on his neck/head.

5K0OJ6-aauo

If you have never seen it, or cannot watch this video - Randleman has Fedor around the waist from his back while standing. Randleman suplexes Fedor in the air and literally drops Fedor on his neck/head.

It was a miracle he didn't knock Fedor out, much less break his neck. What made this legendary is that within 30 seconds of this happening Fedor went from the bottom to switching Randleman and getting top position. He then proceeded to sink a kimura and end the fight very quickly.

Now though, Fedor is washed up, and Brock is the flavor of the week.

It's the cycle of MMA.

Do I buy into the Lesnar hype? No. His last fight proved he has the ability to recover, but it also proved he still has flaws, and flaws that he has not corrected yet. Going into the fight Brock wanted to talk about his improved striking, but yet it looked awful still.

"But if Carwin cannot stop him, who can?"

Well, I'm going to ask you - if Fedor can lay inside the guard of Nog for 20 minutes, how the heck is Werdum going to catch him?

'Ish' happens. It's MMA. If someone catches Brock more cleanly than Carwin was able to, what is going to stop the fight from ending? For example, the elbow Carwin dropped. Brock was able to slightly deflect that elbow with his hand on it's way down. If he had not, do you think Brock takes that elbow cleanly to the chin and continues on?

Brock is a UNBELIEVABLY talented fighter in certain areas. But he is also EXTREMELY flawed in certain areas. Those flaws make him vulnerable regardless of any Ivan Drago hype he has on him.

I get what you're saying but is that whole post intended to point out that Lesnar has flaws? I mean every fighter has flaws that can make them vulnerable and get them beat.

That fight with Randleman and Fedor was sick though. I've always thought that was pretty tough of Fedor to comeback from that slam and just quickly submit Randleman. That was impressive.

As for Tim and Arlovski you can count me out of the group that was ever impressed by them, especially Tim. I always, always, always thought Tim was a product of an extremely weak division at the time he was champ in UFC. He's an average, at best, fighter.

It's why I don't give Fedor much credit for those two wins. I wouldn't have given him much if he'd beaten either one of those two in their prime runs in UFC cause they were both extremely over-rated and average.

Tim even more so now is nothing so Fedor beating him just isn't impressive to me at this point.

List of Former champions Fedor has beaten

Mark Coleman Former HW UFC champ, and 2 time UFC champ back when it was a tournament
Tim Silvia Former UFC HW champ
Arlovski Former UFC HW champ
Kevin Radleman Former UFC HW champ
Big Nog twice former Pride HW champ and interim UFC champ
Semmi Schilt 4 time K-1 world GP champ and 2 time K-1 Super heavy weight champ
Mark Hunt 2001 K-1 world GP champ
Crocop (in his prime) 2006 Pride open weight GP champion

This is only a small portion of Fedors carer, but somehow Brock's 5 wins are more impressive then this?
With the exception of Arlovski and Silvia Fedor beat most of these guys in their prime, your assumption that Brock could is purely wishful thinking, Brock has A LOT to prove still if he wants to be compared to the Greatest HW MMA fighter ever, lets see him go 5-6 years without losing first... (Fedor went 10)

:laugh2:

I can't imagine anyone is saying Fedor hasn't done great things over his career. No one, including myself, is saying that Fedor has never fought top flight competition, or never deserved to be number one, just that in the last few years he's not fought anything even remotely resembling what I'd consider top competition. To me his best competition was last fought in PRIDE and since it closed he hasn't fought anyone who'd crack the top 10 in the HW division in the last few years. Tim? He was a joke when he was in his prime. Arlovski? Way over hyped because he beat an extremely over hyped, and average, Tim Sylvia.

Brett Rogers? Please. The guy is barely a few steps above Kimbo slice. Werdum is the best, most respectable, fighter (IMO anyway) that he's fought since PRIDE closed down and he got beaten by him.

And I don't think Werdum is better than several other guys that Fedor could have been fighting if not for his trash partnership with that M-1 company.

I'd like to see Fedor win his next fight, get out of Strikeforce, and come over to UFC cause there are still several fights I'd like to see him have there that I still think, even with that loss for him recently, would be huge draws and great fights.

Ren

07-06-2010, 01:26 PM

Who cares?

Nobody is saying Brock is as skilled as Fedor. Brock isn't even as skilled as Mir.

But if Brock and Fedor step in the cage, in a fight, Lesnar is going to win the fight unless Fedor gets a lucky submission somehow.

The fact that the 2 are so close right now and Lesnar still being extremely young in his career should tell you who the better fighter is.

Fedor is much better on his feet then anyone Brock has faced including Carwin if Fedor where to land a clean shot on Brock the fight would be over. Fedor is the most accurate HW in MMA so when you consider that almost every fighter Brock has faced has been able to hit him Fedor wouldn't have to much trouble doing that either. Brock's only shot would be to get on top of Fedor and even then Fedor has proved time and time again he can escape just about anything

Skill wise they're not close at all. Brock is an extremely raw fighter at this point and with his still very glaring weaknesses he doesn't match up well with Fedor at all since it plays right into Fedors strengths

10 years of dominance vs 5 wins should tell you who the better fighter is. Brocks future looks a lot brighter then Fedors does but that has more to do with Fedor carer winding down and Brock just starting out.

As of right now Brock is just another in a long line of UFC champ, he's yet to prove he's any more special the a lot of the champs that came and went before him. it's not like he's re-writing history or anything with his 2 title defenses, many have done that and better before him. If he was to retire today he'd be nothing more then a footnote in MMA history, Brock has A LOT to prove still.

Brock reminds me a lot of Coleman back in the early days, Coleman looked unstoppable he had everyone beat on both size and power and was an excellent wrestler. Then along comes Maurice Smith a guy with a sub .500 carer record and made him look stupid, he was never the same after that.
A lot of people who have followed MMA for a long time are rightfully skeptical of him still because we've seen fighters with a lot of potential come and go before. Brock isn't threading any new ground, lots of fighters have done this before him. And a lot of them looked better then Brock has as well.

It's very hard to judge improvement with Brock because of his style but one thing is very clear, his standup hasn't improved much. That would worry me if i was a Brock fan. I can see him beating Velasquez but someone like Junior Dos Santos would give him a lot of problems.
That's the biggest difference between say a Fedor and Brock, Fedor doesn't really match up poorly with any style Brock does

zrinkill

07-06-2010, 01:34 PM

Brock has A LOT to prove still.

It would never be enough for you ..... you predict him to get crushed in every fight.

If he beat Fedor ..... you would come up with another excuse .....

InmanRoshi

07-06-2010, 01:51 PM

Everyone wants to see Brock/Fedor, I want to see Overreem/Brock. Brock's standup is atrocious and a world class kickboxer like Overreem wouldn't just tire himself out punching Brock's face like Carwin (basically a 1 trick pony and hardly a great overall fighter) did. Overreem just completely manhandled Rogers, who is the same size as Brock.

CATCH17

07-06-2010, 01:58 PM

Ren

07-06-2010, 02:26 PM

It would never be enough for you .....

If anyone wants to compare him to some of the greats in the sport like you seem to want then 5 wins is not nearly enough, all personal feeling aside.
If/when he gets up to 10-15 fights and is still at the top then it's time to start that debate, until then Brock has a lot to prove if you want to put him next to the all time greats.
That's not me hating on Brock any non fanboy will tell you the exact same thing i am

Ren

07-06-2010, 02:35 PM

I doubt it. If Carwin can't knock him out than it would take a lucky punch from Fedor to do it.

Not arguing the Fedor isn't a better striker. He is the best technical heavyweight out there. But his striking isn't going to beat Brock.

It will just leave him open to get took down and beat.

Plus, Lesnar's Boxing may not be world class, but if he touches you than you're hitting the mat.

He has the mother of all right hands in MMA right now.

Striking is exactly what's going to beat Brock his standup is not very good, no one is going to out wrestle him any time soon though unless king kong or Godzilla starts doing MMA.
Fedor is a much better striker then Carwin how much power each have in those shots is impossible to tell but accuracy can make up for power and Fedor is as accurate as it gets

CATCH17

07-06-2010, 03:01 PM

Striking is exactly what's going to beat Brock his standup is not very good, no one is going to out wrestle him any time soon though unless king kong or Godzilla starts doing MMA.
Fedor is a much better striker then Carwin how much power each have in those shots is impossible to tell but accuracy can make up for power and Fedor is as accurate as it gets

Brocks stand up will get better over time.

By the time Fedor man's up and joins the UFC it wont matter.

Ren

07-06-2010, 03:03 PM

Brocks stand up will get better over time.

By the time Fedor man's up and joins the UFC it wont matter.

I haven't seen any improvement in the fights he's had what makes you think that's going to all of a sudden change?

InmanRoshi

07-06-2010, 03:15 PM

If anyone wants to compare him to some of the greats in the sport like you seem to want then 5 wins is not nearly enough, all personal feeling aside.
If/when he gets up to 10-15 fights and is still at the top then it's time to start that debate, until then Brock has a lot to prove if you want to put him next to the all time greats.
That's not me hating on Brock any non fanboy will tell you the exact same thing i am

Especially since he joined UFC's HW division at a time when the old guard like Big Nog, Cro Cop, and Couture are well past their primes, and the new crop of talent like Carwin & Cain are still extremely green. Five years ago Carwin was sitting in a cubicle. It's a far cry from other divisions (and the glory days of the Pride HW division), where you have guys like GSP, Penn, Silva ... guys who have been professional fighters most of their adult lives. Really, the only skilled fighter Brock has faced in his prime is Mir, who he's 1-1 against. (and personally, I've never really like Mir as a fighther ... but that's not here nor there).

Brock's going to get his chance to prove all the doubters wrong as Cain, Carwin and JDS get more skilled and seasoned, and maybe Dana gets Overeem or Fedor to cross over, and the UFC heavyweight talent pool gets a little deeper. But right now it's hard for me to take the division seriously when Roy Nelson is one fight away from competing for the belt.

CATCH17

07-06-2010, 04:27 PM

I haven't seen any improvement in the fights he's had what makes you think that's going to all of a sudden change?

Because he is only 6 fights in and his lack of stand up didn't really get exposed until the Mir fight.

All the guy has to do is learn to move his head and just take Dan Hendersons stand up style and just throw heavy Rights.

Lesnar needs to learn he doesn't always have to be the attacker. Just become a counter striker for now.

zrinkill

07-07-2010, 07:34 AM

I haven't seen any improvement in the fights he's had what makes you think that's going to all of a sudden change?

Wow ...... I cannot believe anyone could say that with a straight face.

Ren

07-07-2010, 08:16 AM

Wow ...... I cannot believe anyone could say that with a straight face.

You're just blinded by homerism, you honestly watching the fights the rest of us have seen improvement in his standup? against Carwin it actually looked worse partly cause of Carwin and partly cause Brock just isn't very good standing and never have been

enlighten me pleas, how has his stand up has gotten any better?

:rolleyes:

Rampage

07-07-2010, 08:44 AM

You're just blinded by homerism, you honestly watching the fights the rest of us have seen improvement in his standup? against Carwin it actually looked worse partly cause of Carwin and partly cause Brock just isn't very good standing and never have been

enlighten me pleas, how has his stand up has gotten any better?

:rolleyes:
the guy also missed a full year. now find me a guy his size with good standup

zrinkill

07-07-2010, 08:46 AM

You're just blinded by homerism

:rolleyes:

He lumbered into Mir the first time and got caught in a leg bar.

His balance standing upright is much better now than his fights vs Mir or Couture.

He was dominating upright vs Mir in the second fight ..... and the reason he did worse against Carwin is because he had not fought in a year ..... by the second round he had found his "ring legs" again.

Now say how bad he sucks again while calling others Homers.

:laugh2:

Rampage

07-07-2010, 08:49 AM

:rolleyes:

He lumbered into Mir the first time and got caught in a leg bar.

His balance standing upright is much better now than his fights vs Mir or Couture.

He was dominating upright vs Mir in the second fight ..... and the reason he did worse against Carwin is because he had not fought in a year ..... by the second round he had found his "ring legs" again.

Now say how bad he sucks again while calling others Homers.

:laugh2:

he was dominating Mir in the standup in the 2nd fight.....:laugh2:

that might have been part of it regarding the Carwin fight but it mostly has to do with the fact that his standup still is really bad. I'm a huge Lesnar fan but I can atleast admit it.

Ren

07-07-2010, 08:52 AM

the guy also missed a full year. now find me a guy his size with good standup

http://www.graciemag.com/pt/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/schilt.jpg

that was easy

zrinkill

07-07-2010, 08:54 AM

he was dominating Mir in the standup in the 2nd fight.....:laugh2:

that might have been part of it regarding the Carwin fight but it mostly has to do with the fact that his standup still is really bad. I'm a huge Lesnar fan but I can atleast admit it.

Yes ..... compared to 210 - 240 pounds fighters it is.

But not compared to anyone in his weight range ......

The Guy is a wrestler ........ as long as his standup is good enough to keep him out of trouble (which I think it is) it is good enough.

And I do think he was dominating Mir in that second fight ..... even before he took him down.

Rampage

07-07-2010, 08:57 AM

http://www.graciemag.com/pt/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/schilt.jpg

that was easy

:laugh2: Semmy is a totally different body type. he's 6'11 and thin. Brock is 270+ of muscle. plus Semmy isn't even an mma fighter anymore. find me a guy with a body like Brock's that is good at standup

Ren

07-07-2010, 09:02 AM

:laugh2: Semmy is a totally different body type. he's 6'11 and thin. Brock is 270+ of muscle. plus Semmy isn't even an mma fighter anymore. find me a guy with a body like Brock's that is good at standup

Schilt is 290, you wanted a guy Brocks size with good stand up i gave you one even bigger so now you're changing the criteria? :lmao2:

Rampage

07-07-2010, 09:20 AM

Schilt is 290, you wanted a guy Brocks size with good stand up i gave you one even bigger so now you're changing the criteria? :lmao2:
Semmy is 7 feet tall. he's not anywhere near as compact as Brock's body is. there bodies are nothing alike except they are both big guys.

CATCH17

07-07-2010, 12:30 PM

I wouldn't say Brock dominated Mir standing up in the 2nd fight.

I thought Mirs standup was better.

But I would rather fight Mir standing up than Brock.

That right hand is deadly.

BraveHeartFan

07-07-2010, 01:57 PM

Fedor is much better on his feet then anyone Brock has faced including Carwin if Fedor where to land a clean shot on Brock the fight would be over. Fedor is the most accurate HW in MMA so when you consider that almost every fighter Brock has faced has been able to hit him Fedor wouldn't have to much trouble doing that either. Brock's only shot would be to get on top of Fedor and even then Fedor has proved time and time again he can escape just about anything

Skill wise they're not close at all. Brock is an extremely raw fighter at this point and with his still very glaring weaknesses he doesn't match up well with Fedor at all since it plays right into Fedors strengths

10 years of dominance vs 5 wins should tell you who the better fighter is. Brocks future looks a lot brighter then Fedors does but that has more to do with Fedor carer winding down and Brock just starting out.

As of right now Brock is just another in a long line of UFC champ, he's yet to prove he's any more special the a lot of the champs that came and went before him. it's not like he's re-writing history or anything with his 2 title defenses, many have done that and better before him. If he was to retire today he'd be nothing more then a footnote in MMA history, Brock has A LOT to prove still.

Brock reminds me a lot of Coleman back in the early days, Coleman looked unstoppable he had everyone beat on both size and power and was an excellent wrestler. Then along comes Maurice Smith a guy with a sub .500 carer record and made him look stupid, he was never the same after that.
A lot of people who have followed MMA for a long time are rightfully skeptical of him still because we've seen fighters with a lot of potential come and go before. Brock isn't threading any new ground, lots of fighters have done this before him. And a lot of them looked better then Brock has as well.

It's very hard to judge improvement with Brock because of his style but one thing is very clear, his standup hasn't improved much. That would worry me if i was a Brock fan. I can see him beating Velasquez but someone like Junior Dos Santos would give him a lot of problems.
That's the biggest difference between say a Fedor and Brock, Fedor doesn't really match up poorly with any style Brock does

LOL. I almost thought this was a good post until you compared Coleman to Lesnar. Other than the fact they were both wrestlers there is simply no comparison. Coleman was never, and never will be, the physical presence that Brock is.

It's a terrible comparison.

It would never be enough for you ..... you predict him to get crushed in every fight.

If he beat Fedor ..... you would come up with another excuse .....

It's not important. Brock could sling off 10 more wins from this point, without losing, and beat everyone whose supposedly going to beat him and there will still be guys saying "Yeah he's not good. Still has tons to prove."

And it's all based off the fact that he did WWE wrestling so that immediately meant he couldn't possibly *gasp* learn to actually fight MMA.

Everyone wants to see Brock/Fedor, I want to see Overreem/Brock. Brock's standup is atrocious and a world class kickboxer like Overreem wouldn't just tire himself out punching Brock's face like Carwin (basically a 1 trick pony and hardly a great overall fighter) did. Overreem just completely manhandled Rogers, who is the same size as Brock.

Rogers might weigh as much as Brock but they're in no way the same size. Rogers doesn't have near the muscle, strength, or athletic ability that Brock does.

That's an even worse comparison than the Coleman one that Ren made earlier. Brock would DESTROY Rogers. It would be a seriously ugly beating for Rogers whose basically a slightly more skilled Kimbo Slice.

http://www.graciemag.com/pt/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/schilt.jpg

that was easy

If you can look at that guys body and try and claim that he and Brock are in anyway alike you're either blind or an idiot. I mean it's really that simple.

There is a HUGE difference between being 290 pounds at 7 feet tall and 270 pounds at 6'3".

It's not even a realistic comparison cause it's such a HUGE difference. Brock's chest is about 3 times the size of this.

It's more than about the number on the scale but I'm not surprised that fact was over looked.

Ren

07-07-2010, 03:55 PM

LOL. I almost thought this was a good post until you compared Coleman to Lesnar. Other than the fact they were both wrestlers there is simply no comparison. Coleman was never, and never will be, the physical presence that Brock is.

It's a terrible comparison.

Coleman never fought anyone his own size back then look it up, look up who he fought and their size compared to him. Size wize he had the same advantage because his opponents where smaller, hence the comparison. Not to mention that the way in which Brock has won his fights has been VERY much the same as the way Coleman won his early fights. Coleman looked like a freak next to his opponents, remind you of anyone?

If you can look at that guys body and try and claim that he and Brock are in anyway alike you're either blind or an idiot. I mean it's really that simple.
.

This is as much as i bothered to read, I was asked to name someone as big as Brock who was a good striker and i did, you denying that?
Adding new criteria to the question after it has been answered doesn't make the original answer to the original question any less correct and you're an idiot if you think that's how it works

Where in that question do you see anything about body type, point it out to me pleas... can't do it can you?

Rampage

07-07-2010, 06:47 PM

This is as much as i bothered to read, I was asked to name someone as big as Brock who was a good striker and i did, you denying that?
Adding new criteria to the question after it has been answered doesn't make the original answer to the original question any less correct and you're an idiot if you think that's how it works

Where in that question do you see anything about body type, point it out to me pleas... can't do it can you?
right below in the post you didn't respond too.
Semmy is 7 feet tall. he's not anywhere near as compact as Brock's body is. there bodies are nothing alike except they are both big guys.

BigWillie

07-08-2010, 12:06 AM

Cain won't be able to keep it off the ground. He'll basically have the exact same trouble Mir did in keeping it off the ground, which is to say he can't.

Lets not act as if Brock is completely untouchable as a wrestler.

You can go back to his WWE days. Brock and Kurt Angle talked trash about who was the better wrestler. One day they finally decided to find out backstage, and by most every account, Kurt completely tooled Brock. Mind you, this was a roided up 300lbs+ version of Brock against a 220lbs man in Angle.

Lets remember something - Cain is a 2x All-American at Arizona State and a JUCO National Champ. Cain has some outstanding amateur credentials.

Even more, he trains daily at AKA with the likes of Koscheck, Fitch, and more importantly, Daniel Cormier. If you do not know who Daniel Cormier is, I suggest a Google search rather quickly.

From the sound of it, this fight will not happen for quite a while. Which means even if you think Cain is that much below Brock in wrestling, that Cain will be able to train with a huge Olympian like Daniel Cormier for many months.

Do not oversell Brock here while undercutting Cain.

I get what you're saying but is that whole post intended to point out that Lesnar has flaws? I mean every fighter has flaws that can make them vulnerable and get them beat.

That fight with Randleman and Fedor was sick though. I've always thought that was pretty tough of Fedor to comeback from that slam and just quickly submit Randleman. That was impressive.

As for Tim and Arlovski you can count me out of the group that was ever impressed by them, especially Tim. I always, always, always thought Tim was a product of an extremely weak division at the time he was champ in UFC. He's an average, at best, fighter.

It's why I don't give Fedor much credit for those two wins. I wouldn't have given him much if he'd beaten either one of those two in their prime runs in UFC cause they were both extremely over-rated and average.

Tim even more so now is nothing so Fedor beating him just isn't impressive to me at this point.

The point of my post was to more point out that Brock isn't 'The Terminator' and he isn't some fighter who cannot be stopped. If you read quite a few posts in this thread, and throughout the internet, alot of people are convinced that since Carwin's unmatched power cannot stop Brock, how can he be?

My simple point is - in MMA, if you have flaws, you are beatable. In Brock's case, he is nowhere close to even being a well rounded fighter. He is a huge brute with great wrestling and little else. Until he becomes more well rounded, he is very vulnerable as a fighter. Shane Carwin proved that.

With the rest of your post - I agree about Sylvia. Not so much Arlovski. If you watched the UFC version of Arlovski throughout those years, he really was a well rounded fighter. He actually had a slick ground game. But now he is convinced he is a fantastic striker, while ignoring the fact he has a matchstick chin.

In any case, the UFC marketed those guys as the top of the sport in the HW division. Within just a couple years, Dana was calling them out as bums and telling the world they had no business in the UFC.

It's the flavor of the week in the UFC. It happens quite often.

Still waiting on Phillipe Nover to become Anderson Silva. :D

Ren

07-08-2010, 05:53 AM

right below in the post you didn't respond too.

this was your question, don't try and change it now

now find me a guy his size with good standupI shouldn't have to explain to you how this works, the original answer was before you decided to redefine the question, yes or no?

BrAinPaiNt

07-08-2010, 07:48 AM

http://gallery.roadbikereview.com/data/roadbike/500/turtles_I_like_them.jpg

DemonBlood

07-08-2010, 08:39 AM

I hate Cain Velasquez almost as much as I hate Frank Mir...So just like in the Brock/Frank fight:

WAR BROCK!

BrAinPaiNt

07-08-2010, 08:48 AM

I really enjoy watching MMA. Not a monster fan boy who gets all butt hurt if someone disses this fighter, that fighter or this group vs that group. But that whole thing were people say WAR and a fighters name after it...it really just seems kind of internet ghey.:laugh2:

Rampage

07-08-2010, 08:53 AM

Lets not act as if Brock is completely untouchable as a wrestler.

You can go back to his WWE days. Brock and Kurt Angle talked trash about who was the better wrestler. One day they finally decided to find out backstage, and by most every account, Kurt completely tooled Brock. Mind you, this was a roided up 300lbs+ version of Brock against a 220lbs man in Angle.

Lets remember something - Cain is a 2x All-American at Arizona State and a JUCO National Champ. Cain has some outstanding amateur credentials.

Even more, he trains daily at AKA with the likes of Koscheck, Fitch, and more importantly, Daniel Cormier. If you do not know who Daniel Cormier is, I suggest a Google search rather quickly.

From the sound of it, this fight will not happen for quite a while. Which means even if you think Cain is that much below Brock in wrestling, that Cain will be able to train with a huge Olympian like Daniel Cormier for many months.

Do not oversell Brock here while undercutting Cain.

The point of my post was to more point out that Brock isn't 'The Terminator' and he isn't some fighter who cannot be stopped. If you read quite a few posts in this thread, and throughout the internet, alot of people are convinced that since Carwin's unmatched power cannot stop Brock, how can he be?

My simple point is - in MMA, if you have flaws, you are beatable. In Brock's case, he is nowhere close to even being a well rounded fighter. He is a huge brute with great wrestling and little else. Until he becomes more well rounded, he is very vulnerable as a fighter. Shane Carwin proved that.

With the rest of your post - I agree about Sylvia. Not so much Arlovski. If you watched the UFC version of Arlovski throughout those years, he really was a well rounded fighter. He actually had a slick ground game. But now he is convinced he is a fantastic striker, while ignoring the fact he has a matchstick chin.

In any case, the UFC marketed those guys as the top of the sport in the HW division. Within just a couple years, Dana was calling them out as bums and telling the world they had no business in the UFC.

It's the flavor of the week in the UFC. It happens quite often.

Still waiting on Phillipe Nover to become Anderson Silva. :D
well #1 Angle was on the juice too if you disdn't already know.

#2 nobody has proof of this other than he said,she said

#3 Cain has never won a gold medal in wrestling.
this was your question, don't try and change it now

I shouldn't have to explain to you how this works, the original answer was before you decided to redefine the question, yes or no?
i'm sorry I wasn't more specific to begin with. hate on Brock hater
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9056/lesnardog.gif

DemonBlood

07-08-2010, 08:53 AM

BrAinPaiNt

07-08-2010, 08:59 AM

Why do you hate America?

Cause too many people are wasting my oxygen. ;) :p:

InmanRoshi

07-08-2010, 08:59 AM

Lets not act as if Brock is completely untouchable as a wrestler.

Frankly Carwin was handling his Brock's shoots rather easily, and counter attacking like a mofo, until he was so spent he could barely move.

The point of my post was to more point out that Brock isn't 'The Terminator' and he isn't some fighter who cannot be stopped. If you read quite a few posts in this thread, and throughout the internet, alot of people are convinced that since Carwin's unmatched power cannot stop Brock, how can he be?

My simple point is - in MMA, if you have flaws, you are beatable. In Brock's case, he is nowhere close to even being a well rounded fighter. He is a huge brute with great wrestling and little else. Until he becomes more well rounded, he is very vulnerable as a fighter. Shane Carwin proved that.

That's pretty much where I stand too. I actually don't have a problem with Brock. I think all in all he's not a bad guy, and a lot of his trash talking is the residual effects of his WWE days where you're instilled with the principles of promotion and creating a spectacle. I listened to his interview on Bill Simmons podcast and was impressed with how humble and forthcoming he was, and I got the same impression from his post fight speeches and PC on Saturday.

My problem is with the Brock Fans who proclaim he's invincible after a fight where Brock was dominated pretty thoroughly for 95% of the fight and could have easily been stopped (I'm not saying it should have been stopped, just saying I've seen a lot of fights stopped for less). A different referee on the same night and Brock goes from "invincible" to "most overhyped fighter in MMA".

Carwin is novice to the big stage, and he obviously suffered a huge adreneline dump when he had the champ down. He admitted he could barely move his legs for the 2nd round (He actually tagged Brock with a clean right before Brock took him down in 2nd, he was just too gassed to have anything behind it). It's hard to even judge Brock's performance ... he was either turtled up in the 1st or wrestling with a human sandbag in the 2nd. The only thing Brock definitively proved in the fight is he doesn't have a weak chin and he has pretty phenomenal conditioning for a man of his mass (although we kind already knew that from the Mir fights).

zrinkill

07-08-2010, 09:00 AM

it really just seems kind of internet ghey.:laugh2:

Leave that poster out of this ......

Ren

07-08-2010, 09:07 AM

i'm sorry I wasn't more specific to begin with. hate on Brock hater
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9056/lesnardog.gif

I don't hate him nearly as much as i hate Brock fans who try to re-write MMA history and the laws of physics to make him seem more awesome then he actually is

DemonBlood

07-08-2010, 09:10 AM

Leave that poster out of this ......

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/4/44259/1091232-riveting_tale_chap_super.jpg

Go back to the WWF threads. :rolleyes:

Rampage

07-08-2010, 09:23 AM

I don't hate him nearly as much as i hate Brock fans who try to re-write MMA history and the laws of physics to make him seem more awesome then he actually is
am I one of those fans? If so what did I say to try to rewrite mma history or the laws of physics?

oh and to the hippie and the homer WAR saying WAR!

Ren

07-08-2010, 09:25 AM

am I one of those fans? If so what did I say to try to rewrite mma history or the laws of physics?

nope, that wasn't aimed at you

Just explaining why i don't like Brock or to be more specific why i hate the Brock hype

Rampage

07-08-2010, 09:35 AM

nope, that wasn't aimed at you

Just explaining why i don't like Brock or to be more specific why i hate the Brock hype
no doubt.

zrinkill

07-08-2010, 09:49 AM

Go back to the WWF threads. :rolleyes:

I was not talking about you "demonblood"

:laugh2:

But its kinda telling that you assumed I was.

DemonBlood

07-08-2010, 10:06 AM

I was not talking about you "demonblood"

:laugh2:

But its kinda telling that you assumed I was.

You win this time "zrinkill" but I'll be back!

:(

zrinkill

07-08-2010, 11:02 AM

You win this time "zrinkill" but I'll be back!

:(

Don't mind me .....

My little sisters birthday is tomorrow and I have been in a foul mood all week.

BigWillie

07-09-2010, 12:23 AM

well #1 Angle was on the juice too if you disdn't already know.

#2 nobody has proof of this other than he said,she said

#3 Cain has never won a gold medal in wrestling.

1.) And ..?

2.) More than a few have discussed this in the past. Kurt and Brock both have admitted it happened, and the only difference in the stories is that Brock says he was not completely dominated.

3.) And ..?

5hfYJsQAhl0

BraveHeartFan

07-10-2010, 01:17 AM

Coleman never fought anyone his own size back then look it up, look up who he fought and their size compared to him. Size wize he had the same advantage because his opponents where smaller, hence the comparison. Not to mention that the way in which Brock has won his fights has been VERY much the same as the way Coleman won his early fights. Coleman looked like a freak next to his opponents, remind you of anyone?

I'm looking at it now. He fought back then at HW and I'm sure he fought in the 250-265 pound range at all times.

So one of his early opponents then was Gary Goodridge who fought at 250 (According to the bio I found online for him), Don Frye who it says fought between 220 and 230 (so Coleman obviously had him by a good 20-30 pounds), and Dan Severn who fought at between 250-260 during his UFC run and Scott Ferrozzo, who I don't even remember but the only bio I can find says he fought was 320 pounds (which I guess that far back was allowed before they had the 265 HW limit). Of course the problem with the only bio I found for him also doesn't even list his fight and loss to Coleman. It shows him with a 4-2 record with losses to Jerry Bohlander and Vito Belfort before retiring.

Those are 4 of his first 7 opponents he faced when he walked into UFC and ran of 7 straight wins and everyone thought he was a machine.

The other 3 opponents during that machine run, where he won his first 2 tournaments, as we all remember who watched UFC back then it was tournament style back then, were much smaller than him.

So I do see your comparison better, though I honestly didn't remember him being freakshow larger than most of his opponents like Brock, but he was significantly bigger than a few of his early opponents.

This is as much as i bothered to read, I was asked to name someone as big as Brock who was a good striker and i did, you denying that?
Adding new criteria to the question after it has been answered doesn't make the original answer to the original question any less correct and you're an idiot if you think that's how it works

Where in that question do you see anything about body type, point it out to me pleas... can't do it can you?

Uh sure. Ok man. If you really needed him to hold your hand and point out exactly what he was talking about then that's your business.

I think it was pretty clear from his question, although maybe not maybe he needed to be very specific to avoid confusion, that he wanted you to find a guy like Brock.

To me if someone asks that question they're not looking for someone who can step on the scale and weigh as much as Brock.

Hell in that case I'm the same size as Brock cause I weigh in the same area right now. But only a crazy person would ever try and proclaim me the same physical size cause we weigh the same. I'm in the same ball field weight wise but I'm no where NEAR the same planet as him when it comes to actual size and physical stature.

It doesn't matter either way I don't guess. People getting nitpicky over nothing I guess, all of us are.

well #1 Angle was on the juice too if you disdn't already know.

#2 nobody has proof of this other than he said,she said

#3 Cain has never won a gold medal in wrestling.

i'm sorry I wasn't more specific to begin with. hate on Brock hater
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9056/lesnardog.gif (http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9056/lesnardog.gif)

I agree. I couldn't care less what supposedly happened in a friendly round of wrestling backstage at a WWE show.

It's alot different to step in that cage and do it then it would be backstage at a WWF show.

Not to mention that the comparison is terrible either way. Angle is a gold medalist in wrestling. Cain, while he's no doubt accomplished things in wrestling, isn't even in the same league as Angle when it comes to wrestling. It's a terrible comparison.

I don't hate him nearly as much as i hate Brock fans who try to re-write MMA history and the laws of physics to make him seem more awesome then he actually is

Whose honestly re-writing history here? I haven't seen anyone proclaim him the best of all time or anything. I've seen some folks say he's the best HW in the world today, and people could make a case for that right now given that Fedor lost.

But what does today have to do with anyone saying he's the best ever or something?

Ren

07-11-2010, 12:55 PM

Uh sure. Ok man. If you really needed him to hold your hand and point out exactly what he was talking about then that's your business.

Ahh the good old "yes but",.. answer
Pretty much saying you where wrong but you're to proud to admit it :laugh2:

CATCH17

07-11-2010, 03:01 PM

Don't call my name dont call my name Alejandroooo.

casmith07

07-11-2010, 03:02 PM

Sad day when CowboysZone posters have more knowledge of MMA than football :laugh1:

Rampage

07-11-2010, 05:52 PM

former k1/Pride heavyweight Mark Hunt has signed a 3 fight deal with the UFC. also word is referee Big John McCarthy is back in the UFC and will be reffing the card on the Versus network.

Ren

07-11-2010, 06:01 PM

former k1/Pride heavyweight Mark Hunt has signed a 3 fight deal with the UFC. also word is referee Big John McCarthy is back in the UFC and will be reffing the card on the Versus network.

Mark Hunt used to be tough as hell back in the day but he's looked soft compared to his old self in dream losing to Manhoef and Mousasi both MW at the time and his brief attempt at a K-1 comeback where he got KO'd by a body shot. I don't expect much from him anymore, he's not won a MMA fight in half a decade

DemonBlood

07-12-2010, 08:29 PM