Marcel Dareus vs Cam Jordan

[acer941]

Who do u think is better for 3-4 end and why?

[realtick]

This shouldn't even be up for debate.

Cam Jordan > Dareus

Dareus has little to no repitiore of pass rush moves outside of a bullrush and club. He's too often stalemated at the LOS and disappears for series at a time. He's not stout enough to play nose and offers little as a 3-4 DE. He's at the top of my list as the most overhyped prospects in the draft.

[The Realist]

This shouldn't even be up for debate.

Cam Jordan > Dareus

Dareus has little to no repitiore of pass rush moves outside of a bullrush and club. He's too often stalemated at the LOS and disappears for series at a time. He's not stout enough to play nose and offers little as a 3-4 DE. He's at the top of my list as the most overhyped prospects in the draft.

Their 3-4 ends.

Dial em both up for 1-3 sacks average per year.

[CATCH17]

As of today? Dareus..

If we want to just do what we've done in the past with our D Ends?

Dareus.


If we're looking for more upside and a bigger playmaker? Jordan.



It just depends on what fits Ryans scheme and I don't know what that is.


For me I like them both but Jordans upside is phenomenal imo. I love the high motor guys.

[Dash28]

I would go with Jordan.

[Sam I Am]

Jordon is under weight for a 3-4 DE to start today at 287lbs. Marcell Dareus is listed at 306lbs which maybe slightly heavier that you want. (say 295lb minimum, 305lbs maximum)

If you want your DE to not be flashy and just straight up stop the run, I take Marcell. If you want a guy that can do more than stop the run, I go with Jordan.

I think if both are on the board, I take Jordan just because we aren't playing Bill Parcells brand of the 3-4 and there is a chance he could develop in the mold of Ratliff though probably not as dominate. That said, I wouldn't have a single problem taking Marcell either.

[The Realist]

Jordon is under weight for a 3-4 DE to start today at 287lbs. Marcell Dareus is listed at 306lbs which maybe slightly heavier that you want. (say 295lb minimum, 305lbs maximum)

If you want your DE to not be flashy and just straight up stop the run, I take Marcell. If you want a guy that can do more than stop the run, I go with Jordan.

I think if both are on the board, I take Jordan just because we aren't playing Bill Parcells brand of the 3-4 and there is a chance he could develop in the mold of Ratliff though probably not as dominate. That said, I wouldn't have a single problem taking Marcell either.

Dead on. Richard Seymour almost had what it took to be a good 3-4 DE if he wasn't over 305.

If I had to take one I'd take Dareus as SDE.....move Rat next to Ware and draft a NT behind Brent like Powe or Taylor.

[CATCH17]

Instead of spending a quality pick on a DE why don't we just chase Cullen Jenkins from Green Bay?

He is proven and can play both DE positions in a 3-4.

[CATCH17]

Dead on. Richard Seymour almost had what it took to be a good 3-4 DE if he wasn't over 305.

If I had to take one I'd take Dareus as SDE.....move Rat next to Ware and draft a NT behind Brent like Powe or Taylor.

I like the idea of Ware + Rat on one side.

But not if we're going to ask our DE's to contain.


My question is...


How does Rob Ryan use his Ends?

[Sam I Am]

My question is...


How does Rob Ryan use his Ends?

I don't know, but I'm pretty damn excited to find out! :)

[BrAinPaiNt]

I like the idea of Ware + Rat on one side.

But not if we're going to ask our DE's to contain.


My question is...


How does Rob Ryan use his Ends?

From the size of them, I would say As Cushions to sit on.:p:

J/K.

Yeah I am curious how he sees their role as well. If he is someone who just wants them to contain the rush and rarely rush the passer...I would prefer we resign spears or draft a DE later.

[The Realist]

I like the idea of Ware + Rat on one side.

But not if we're going to ask our DE's to contain.


My question is...


How does Rob Ryan use his Ends?

I don't get the confusion as to how Ryan uses his ends.

3-4 DE's all do the basically same thing unless they are agile enough to rush inside or out in nickel.

Wade came in and told us he 1 gaps his DL.

Yes, his name is Ratliff.

[TheCount]

To me, Cam looks like a very good pass rushing DE in the 4-3 and not like a 3-4 DE at all.

[The Realist]

The two best pass rushing 3-4 DE's in the last 10 years or so.

Richard Seymour 4.8 sacks per year.

Aaron Smith 4.4 sacks per year.

Not that sacks are the only thing that matters, but I'm not taking a DE this high unless it's Bruce Smith or Reggie White type guy. Peppers.

He's not in this draft and same 3-4 DE can be had in 2-3.

[Marktui]

Who do u think is better for 3-4 end and why?


Watching senior bowl practices, Jordan is going up against the 3 top rated tackles in the draft and he is holding his own. He has good speed and uses his hands really well when rushing the qb. at 6'4 290, he has good size to be the DE position in our 3/4. Similar to Hatcher in build, but looks more explosive than Hatch.

Dareus has a big frame and looks more suited to play DT in a 4/3. He has no speed to get around the edge.

If I had the choice in would be Jordan. He can play DT in the nickel and play DE in the base. He looks like a player. Good motor as well. Dareus has been known to wear down.

[Marktui]

Instead of spending a quality pick on a DE why don't we just chase Cullen Jenkins from Green Bay?

He is proven and can play both DE positions in a 3-4.

He is 30 years old. We need to draft players for this defense for the long run. Jenkins is good, but he is on the wrong side of 30, those big guys tend to break down more often.

[MichaelWinicki]

Jordan.

No question.

[realtick]

Dead on. Richard Seymour almost had what it took to be a good 3-4 DE if he wasn't over 305.

If I had to take one I'd take Dareus as SDE.....move Rat next to Ware and draft a NT behind Brent like Powe or Taylor.

Lol, then you're effectively advocating taking another Marcus Spears at #9. It's a broke philosophy if you think 3-4 aren't supposed to bring QB pressure.

Spears was actually a good pass rusher at LSU. Unfortunately, Dareus has the same issues Spears did coming to the NFL; he lacks a solid pass rushing repitiore outside of a bullrush.

Further, Dareus' motor is questionable as he disappears in games for stretches and is not to be confused as an effort guy.

People have the tendancy to want to conveinently categorize guys into groups. For example:

I'm sure you've heard this..."If you want a guy to make plays then you want Patrick Peterson...If you want a guy to shutdown a receiver then you want Prince Amakamura..."

Now folks want to insinuate Cam Jordan is the pass rushing threat, while Dareus is the run stopper...

Here's news folks, two things can be equally true: Cam Jordan is the better pass rusher and is just as effective defending the run, if not better than Dareus.

[CATCH17]

Lol, then you're effectively advocating taking another Marcus Spears at #9. It's a broke philosophy if you think 3-4 aren't supposed to bring QB pressure.

Spears was actually a good pass rusher at LSU. Unfortunately, Dareus has the same issues Spears did coming to the NFL; he lacks a solid pass rushing repitiore outside of a bullrush.

Spears was unbelievable in college.

He WAS Marcel Dareus with more athletic ability.

[The Realist]

Lol, then you're effectively advocating taking another Marcus Spears at #9. It's a broke philosophy if you think 3-4 aren't supposed to bring QB pressure.

Spears was actually a good pass rusher at LSU. Unfortunately, Dareus has the same issues Spears did coming to the NFL; he lacks a solid pass rushing repitiore outside of a bullrush.

I'm far from advocating 3-4 DE at 9.

The best pass rushers at 3-4 DE for the last 10 years or so.

Seymour 4.8 sacks per year.

Aaron Smith 4.4 sacks per year.

I'll take a 3-4 DE high when I see Peppers, Mario, Bruce or Reggie.

[realtick]

I'm far from advocating 3-4 DE at 9.

The best pass rushers at 3-4 DE for the last 10 years or so.

Seymour 4.8 sacks per year.

Aaron Smith 4.4 sacks per year.

I'll take a 3-4 DE high when I see Peppers, Mario, Bruce or Reggie.

Then you're failing to see the hidden numbers i.e. QB pressure.

As one of the members of the Lunch Break put it, "Close is only good in horseshoes and hand grenades....and pressuring the QB"

Pressure makes QB do funny things; whether it's forcing them up in the pocket; forcing a throw; firing a pass too early; taking their eyes off their receivers; et cetera.

Let's be honest, Marcus Spears and Igor Olshansky don't bring pressure. The few sacks they do rack up (a total of 4 in the past 32 games between two players!) are typically from a total collapse of the pocket.

If I can get a 34 end that can play the run, bring pressure and rack up 5 sacks a year, I'll take it.

Besides, it is a position of need. Spears, Bowen and Hatcher are all up, the Cowboys need some talent at the position if for no other reason to fill out a roster.

JMO.

[jterrell]

Then you're failing to see the hidden numbers i.e. QB pressure.

As one of the members of the Lunch Break put it, "Close is only good in horseshoes and hand grenades....and pressuring the QB"

Pressure makes QB do funny things; whether it's forcing them up in the pocket; forcing a throw; firing a pass too early; taking their eyes off their receivers; et cetera.

Let's be honest, Marcus Spears and Igor Olshansky don't bring pressure. The few sacks they do rack up (a total of 4 in the past 32 games between two players!) are typically from a total collapse of the pocket.

If I can get a 34 end that can play the run, bring pressure and rack up 5 sacks a year, I'll take it.

Besides, it is a position of need. Spears, Bowen and Hatcher are all up, the Cowboys need some talent at the position if for no other reason to fill out a roster.

JMO.

The only thing I buy in your last dozen posts are the JMO part.

Dallas obviously can re-sign their own players if they desire. In fact they probably are certain to retain a couple of those guys.

I like Cam Jordan and would definitely consider him at 9. But 3-4 DE is definitely not a position of huge focus. Bill Parcells wanted to draft Spears instead of Ware. for once a Jerry Jones overrule saved us. A great 3-4 DE is not going to carry a team. GB and Pitt play in the SB and have very good defenses but the 3-4 DE's on those squads get very little pressure. They occupy blockers and clog lanes for the LBs to run free.

Best case Jordan is another Ratliff. A quick off the ball penetrating DL. Playing him at a 3-4 DE might work in some schemes but the players around him better be able to control 2 gaps.

[realtick]

The only thing I buy in your last dozen posts are the JMO part.

Dallas obviously can re-sign their own players if they desire. In fact they probably are certain to retain a couple of those guys.

I like Cam Jordan and would definitely consider him at 9. But 3-4 DE is definitely not a position of huge focus. Bill Parcells wanted to draft Spears instead of Ware. for once a Jerry Jones overrule saved us. A great 3-4 DE is not going to carry a team. GB and Pitt play in the SB and have very good defenses but the 3-4 DE's on those squads get very little pressure. They occupy blockers and clog lanes for the LBs to run free.

Best case Jordan is another Ratliff. A quick off the ball penetrating DL. Playing him at a 3-4 DE might work in some schemes but the players around him better be able to control 2 gaps.

Then count yourself as part of the clueless.

Making statements like "the 3-4 DE's on those squads (GB & Pitt.) get very little pressure," is indicative of that. You're not watching the games, you're sifting through a stat sheet looking for eye-popping sack numbers. It's about pressure; sacks are just a quantitative stat that are sometimes the end result of bringing pressure.

"I like Cam Jordan and would definitely consider him at 9. But 3-4 DE is definitely not a position of huge focus."

Love the fuzzy logic here. So you would definitely consider him #9, but then state it's definitely not a position of huge focus.

I think the Cowboys should take the BPA at a position of need. That being (in no specific order) CB/S, OT, DE.

I don't want to reach to take an OL at #9 if a guy like Jordan or Quinn are still available. Likewise, I don't want to select a 34 DE if all the top tier talent (Fairley, Jordan, etc.) are off the board and a guy like Patrick Peterson is still available.

This is all assuming we don't trade back and choose to stay at #9.

Yes, you've stated the obvious, the Cowboys can resign those named players (Spears, Bowen, Hatcher), but there is a great possibility that at least one, if not two of those said players will be allowed to walk.

Where's the DE depth? Clifton Geathers, Jimmy Sadler-McQueen?

Do you want to bypass a prospect like Cam Jordan because we got Sean Lissemore?

Bottomline, you take the BPA at a position of need.

[MarionBarberThe4th]

As impressive as Jordan was to me, I think it would be harder for him to do what he was going as a 5 technique. Theres much less room to operate and you dont have the edge to rush. He might be a better player as a LE in a 4-3.

[baj1dallas]

Dareus.

[CATCH17]

As impressive as Jordan was to me, I think it would be harder for him to do what he was going as a 5 technique. Theres much less room to operate and you dont have the edge to rush. He might be a better player as a LE in a 4-3.

True but the guy will be a 300+ pounder and he is going to go 100% every single play and there is something to be said for that.


On a team full of quitters he would be a guy you know wouldn't stop.

[TheCount]

True but the guy will be a 300+ pounder and he is going to go 100% every single play and there is something to be said for that.


On a team full of quitters he would be a guy you know wouldn't stop.

How do we know he's going to be 300+ lbs?

I like the guy, and I like how far ahead he is already as a pass rusher but I can't shake thinking he's a little small for a 3-4 DE.

If I could be convinced he will add some extra weight and maintain all that, that would go a long way but in convincing me. As it stands I think he'd be a steal for a 4-3 team, not so sure about a 3-4 team.

[The Realist]

Cam is wreaking havoc like Spears did as a 4-3 DE at LSU.

Nothing like being head up on an OT to put the kybosh to that.

[CATCH17]

How do we know he's going to be 300+ lbs?

I like the guy, and I like how far ahead he is already as a pass rusher but I can't shake thinking he's a little small for a 3-4 DE.

If I could be convinced he will add some extra weight and maintain all that, that would go a long way but in convincing me. As it stands I think he'd be a steal for a 4-3 team, not so sure about a 3-4 team.


Just look at him. His frame can carry a lot more weight.

[Avery]

Jordan, but I only take him if we can't trade down and Prince/PP are off the board. I think we could find someone for the 3-4 later at a cheaper price.

[MarionBarberThe4th]

True but the guy will be a 300+ pounder and he is going to go 100% every single play and there is something to be said for that.


On a team full of quitters he would be a guy you know wouldn't stop.

Well like I said hes winning me over. These drills are so intense for these guys w/ it being 1 on 1 so anyone like him or Tyson Alualu who dominates catches my attention. But I didnt want Alualu in R1 last year and I still dont think he would have been as good a pick as Dez, Pounecy, Iupati, Anthony Davis, and even McCourty.

This is similar IMO. His talent looks to be top 10, but if you graded him as a prospect as a 5 technique is it still as high? Sure he crapped on Schilling and everthing but you cant rush the same way on the inside. You have a limited number of moves and have to maintain some semblance of a pass-rush lane.

Would Cameron Jordan have the same impact at end that a Quinn or PP would have on defense?