Same Old Michael Vick *Merge*

[Hostile]

Apparently he was presented a key to the city of Dallas this weekend in a ceremony.

A reporter who adopted on of his dogs tried to talk to him about it. The video cannot be posted on this forum due to the language from some in Vick's entourage.

One of these guys flat out says "we do not care about the dogs."

Vick was shown a picture of the dog, looked the reporter in the eye and walked off.

This is the same guy who as the video says recently said the Vick of 2006 would not listen to the Vick of 2010 but he has changed. Clothes maybe, not his spots.

[tyke1doe]

Apparently he was presented a key to the city of Dallas this weekend in a ceremony.

A reporter who adopted on of his dogs tried to talk to him about it. The video cannot be posted on this forum due to the language from some in Vick's entourage.

One of these guys flat out says "we do not care about the dogs."

Vick was shown a picture of the dog, looked the reporter in the eye and walked off.

This is the same guy who as the video says recently said the Vick of 2006 would not listen to the Vick of 2010 but he has changed. Clothes maybe, not his spots.

So what's the problem here?

His entourage uses cuss language, and this means Vick hasn't changed?

A guy who adopts one of Vick's dogs wants to talk (what did he want to talk about) and Vick doesn't?

Vick doesn't want to talk about his past, one he's already addressed?

I'm not understanding what the issue is here beyond the information given.

[Sam I Am]

Why would any city give Vick a key?

Shoot whoever thought this was a good idea.

[Go Big D!]

Why would any city give Vick a key?

Shoot whoever thought this was a good idea.

Let alone Dallas.
Is this supposed to be a slap in the face?


Or maybe it was just a mix up and they only wanted Vick to sign the key??

[crazyfool]

Let alone Dallas.
Is this supposed to be a slap in the face?


Or maybe it was just a mix up and they only wanted Vick to sign the key??
:laugh2:

[Hostile]

So what's the problem here?

His entourage uses cuss language, and this means Vick hasn't changed?

A guy who adopts one of Vick's dogs wants to talk (what did he want to talk about) and Vick doesn't?

Vick doesn't want to talk about his past, one he's already addressed?

I'm not understanding what the issue is here beyond the information given.Do a search, watch the video, and you tell me. You're a smart guy and I have no doubt you will see for yourself what the problem is.

[cowboyjoe]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/07/dallas-mayor-vicks-key-to-city-not-sanctioned-by-my-office/
Posted by Michael David Smith on February 7, 2011, 5:26 PM EST
Eagles quarterback Michael Vick didn’t attend the pre-Super Bowl party he had been slated to host, but he did stop by Dallas over the weekend, where he picked up a key to the city.

And now the mayor of Dallas wants everyone to know that he wasn’t involved in that decision.

“The action taken was not sanctioned by my office and was not an official ceremonial honor on behalf of the City of Dallas,” Mayor Tom Leppert said in a statement. “Official Keys to the City are presented by the Mayor, or an elected official designated by the Mayor, and reserved, on a limited basis, for an elected official of international status. Clearly, this was not the case in this situation and done without my knowledge or approval. Given these circumstances I have requested the City Manager propose guidelines to prevent this situation in the future.”

[Beast_from_East]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/07/dallas-mayor-vicks-key-to-city-not-sanctioned-by-my-office/
Posted by Michael David Smith on February 7, 2011, 5:26 PM EST
Eagles quarterback Michael Vick didn’t attend the pre-Super Bowl party he had been slated to host, but he did stop by Dallas over the weekend, where he picked up a key to the city.

And now the mayor of Dallas wants everyone to know that he wasn’t involved in that decision.

“The action taken was not sanctioned by my office and was not an official ceremonial honor on behalf of the City of Dallas,” Mayor Tom Leppert said in a statement. “Official Keys to the City are presented by the Mayor, or an elected official designated by the Mayor, and reserved, on a limited basis, for an elected official of international status. Clearly, this was not the case in this situation and done without my knowledge or approval. Given these circumstances I have requested the City Manager propose guidelines to prevent this situation in the future.”

Yea, If I gave a dog killer the keys to the city, I would be denying any knowledge of it as well.

[Dallas]

Whoever though it was great idea to give Vick a key to anything let alone to Dallas, TX. should be IMMEDIATELY fired.

Wait..


They should be marched out in front of the next Cowboys/Eagles game at Cowboys stadium and be LAMBASTED by the Cowboys fans and THEN they should be terminated.

[Dallas]

Yea, If I gave a dog killer the keys to the city, I would be denying any knowledge of it as well.


Im certain he didn't know. He even goes the distance of describing policy while denying it.

He sounds sincere. This crap happens all the time in municipal and state government. If you dont' have clear policy and everything is stated in black and white, you would be amazed the backdooredness in some folks to get what they want.

[jnday]

Do a search, watch the video, and you tell me. You're a smart guy and I have no doubt you will see for yourself what the problem is.

Hos , you could post the video, have 10 eye witnesses , and Vick could admit to being scum and some people will never get it.

[Stautner]

I was absolutely disgusted by Vick's involvment with the dog fighting ring, but I can't blame him for not responding to people who want to keep sticking it in his face. I don't know if he has changed or not, but trying to push it on him is not likely to be received with open arms, nor should it be.

[burmafrd]

I was absolutely disgusted by Vick's involvment with the dog fighting ring, but I can't blame him for not responding to people who want to keep sticking it in his face. I don't know if he has changed or not, but trying to push it on him is not likely to be received with open arms, nor should it be.

WRONG. This is part of the price he must pay if he is going to really convince people he has changed. Its up to him to convince people- to do that he has to handle scenes like this. AND by the way having hangers on like that does not help.

[Kaika]

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/news/story?id=6099411

[Apollo Creed]

Asking him for autographs, giving the key to the city to him, whats next - naming the humane society The Vick Institute for the Rehabilitation of Canines?

[dadymat]

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/news/story?id=6099411


if you wait a minute someone will be along to blame this on Jerry.....theyll have his head for this

[VietCowboy]

I was absolutely disgusted by Vick's involvment with the dog fighting ring, but I can't blame him for not responding to people who want to keep sticking it in his face. I don't know if he has changed or not, but trying to push it on him is not likely to be received with open arms, nor should it be.

He could at the very least thanked the reporter for adopting caring for and providing a loving home for his dog. leave it at that and leave.


Why should he request the judge to allow him to own a dog if he cannot even show he cares for dogs?

[bsheeern]

if you wait a minute someone will be along to blame this on Jerry.....theyll have his head for this

Sad but true.....

[Kaika]

Sorry, But even Jerry would never do something this idiotic.:mad:

Surprised this didn't get more press in Dallas.:rolleyes:

[zrinkill]

JVita17 thinks this is long overdue.

[JVita17]

Thats great. Congrats MIKE VICK...lets the jealous haters hate in 3...2...1...

[Robbieac]

Darn you Jerry Jones!!!!


/sarcasm

[zrinkill]

Thats great. Congrats MIKE VICK


I called it ......

[Royal Laegotti]

if you wait a minute someone will be along to blame this on Jerry.....theyll have his head for this
You guys are eaten up with it!:laugh2:

[stilltheguru]

Good for you Vick.

[JVita17]

I called it ......

Give him the keys to Valley Ranch

[JVita17]

Apparently he was presented a key to the city of Dallas this weekend in a ceremony.

A reporter who adopted on of his dogs tried to talk to him about it. The video cannot be posted on this forum due to the language from some in Vick's entourage.

One of these guys flat out says "we do not care about the dogs."

Vick was shown a picture of the dog, looked the reporter in the eye and walked off.

This is the same guy who as the video says recently said the Vick of 2006 would not listen to the Vick of 2010 but he has changed. Clothes maybe, not his spots.

You remind me of ESPN reporting on the Cowboys. Hater.

[Hostile]

You remind me of ESPN reporting on the Cowboys. Hater.I can't respond with what you remind me of, so I'll simply say have a real nice ulcer from defending this worthless scum sucker.

[Royal Laegotti]

JVita17 thinks this is long overdue.
He can give Vick his keys to his dog kennel then!

[Achilleslastand]

Asking him for autographs, giving the key to the city to him, whats next - naming the humane society The Vick Institute for the Rehabilitation of Canines?


No.....next will be the nobel peace prize.

[tyke1doe]

I was absolutely disgusted by Vick's involvment with the dog fighting ring, but I can't blame him for not responding to people who want to keep sticking it in his face. I don't know if he has changed or not, but trying to push it on him is not likely to be received with open arms, nor should it be.

I agree.

[stilltheguru]

"If a man is not redeemable then God has no purpose"

[theebs]

Just watched a piece on this on cbs11.

The guy who has his dog is richard hunter, former ticket host Big Dick hunter.

The guy who gave vick the key to the city was the dallas mayor pro tem and had not been authorized to do so, in fact he actually bought the key he gave him and it was not the official city key they give out.

It looked like something deion sanders would come up with. this guy was running around promoting vick as a changed man.

Did I miss something? Why in the world would anyone in Dallas give two craps about this guy? Why is he even mentioned or involved in any of this?

This whole thing makes zero sense. Its sad.

[Hostile]

I send the Mayor Pro Tem packing if he did this without authorization.

[yimyammer]

Just watched a piece on this on cbs11.

The guy who has his dog is richard hunter, former ticket host Big Dick hunter.

The guy who gave vick the key to the city was the dallas mayor pro tem and had not been authorized to do so, in fact he actually bought the key he gave him and it was not the official city key they give out.

It looked like something deion sanders would come up with. this guy was running around promoting vick as a changed man.

Did I miss something? Why in the world would anyone in Dallas give two craps about this guy? Why is he even mentioned or involved in any of this?

This whole thing makes zero sense. Its sad.

No kidding, why on earth did Dallas feel the need to give Vick the key? Even if he hadn't been involved with dog fighting. Why Vick, why now and why Dallas?

This makes absolutely no sense to me either

[kapolani]

I'm pretty sure my feelings around here are known about how I feel towards the dirtbag also known as Mike Vick.

I don't think I've ever wished for someone to be maimed or paralyzed for life, but for this guy I'll make the exception.

He's a worthless piece of garbage that will never change. He isn't sorry. He's just doing all this work so that he can continue to make money and live a life of entitlement.

[LatinMind]

Michael Vick gets key to DallasESPNDallas.com




Dallas Mayor Pro Tem Dwaine Caraway gave the key to the city to Michael Vick (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=2549), the quarterback for the rival Philadelphia Eagles (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/phi/philadelphia-eagles), causing an uproar among animal rights activists Saturday

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/news/story?id=6099411

ops sorry already posted

[hipfake08]

Come on. That has to be a fake story.
No one person is that dumb.

[yimyammer]

The guy who set this up is going to be on 1310 the ticket at 9:20, I have class and can't listen, can someone post an update

[zrinkill]

Tell this Moron http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/zrinkill/dwaine.jpg, how you feel about this.


Mail can be sent to Dwaine via the following address:

Dwaine Caraway, Deputy Mayor Pro Tem
City of Dallas
Council District 4
1500 Marilla Street, Room 5EN
Dallas, Texas 75201-6390
Phone: (214) 670-0781

If you have a question or would like more information from Dwaine, please send an e-mail by completing this form.http://www.ci.dallas.tx.us/forms/mcc/CD04_Mail_Form.htm

Assistant: Stephanie Pegues (214) 670-0781

Secretary: Esmeralda Martinez (214) 670-7056

Dallas City Hall Website: Dallascityhall.com

Deputy Mayor Pro Tem Caraway's City Hall Page: link (http://www.dallascityhall.com/government/council/district_4.html)


http://www.dwainecaraway.com/

[ajk23az]

DALLAS (AP) — The Mayor of Dallas says he did not sanction giving Philadelphia Eagles quarterback Michael Vick a “key to the city.”

Vick won The Associated Press Comeback Player of the Year award this past season, his second in the NFL since serving 18 months in prison for operating a dogfighting operation.

Mayor Pro Tem Dwaine Caraway presented the key at a ceremony in Dallas last week.

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2011/02/08/dallas-mayor-disavows-key-presentation-to-michael-vick/

[DFWJC]

I think it was unbelievably moronic to give Mike Vick a key to the city. How about giving it to just about any policeman or fireman or school teacher before Vick?

Nevertheless, I'm also sure Vick is tired of people trying to incite him. That is exactly what people approaching him about it 3 years later are usually doing--and that after he has spent all that time in jail, lost a fortune, repented, and lived a clean life so far. They are just trying to tear open a scab and watch someone squirm.

But yes, a key to the city is really dumb.

[DFWJC]

I'm pretty sure my feelings around here are known about how I feel towards the dirtbag also known as Mike Vick.

I don't think I've ever wished for someone to be maimed or paralyzed for life, but for this guy I'll make the exception.

He's a worthless piece of garbage that will never change. He isn't sorry. He's just doing all this work so that he can continue to make money and live a life of entitlement.
Safe to say that you are not a Christian:laugh2:

Tell us how you really feel!

Sort of kidding there. I guess if you really think he has not changed, it is different.

But seriously
So people can't learn, repent, or change...and can never be forgiven?
Let's see how that works out for you in life.

[mldardy]

I'm pretty sure my feelings around here are known about how I feel towards the dirtbag also known as Mike Vick.

I don't think I've ever wished for someone to be maimed or paralyzed for life, but for this guy I'll make the exception.

He's a worthless piece of garbage that will never change. He isn't sorry. He's just doing all this work so that he can continue to make money and live a life of entitlement.
Get off your high horse. :banghead: Just silly to even say something like this.

[zrinkill]

Get off your high horse. :banghead: Just silly to even say something like this.

Its a "high horse" to hate a guy who tortures dogs for fun? And then if they lose tortures them to death by electrocution or drowning?

Maybe you should get off your low horse.

[joseephuss]

I think it was unbelievably moronic to give Mike Vick a key to the city. How about giving it to just about any policeman or fireman or school teacher before Vick?

Nevertheless, I'm also sure Vick is tired of people trying to incite him. That is exactly what people approaching him about it 3 years later are usually doing--and that after he has spent all that time in jail, lost a fortune, repented, and lived a clean life so far. They are just trying to tear open a scab and watch someone squirm.

But yes, a key to the city is really dumb.

Vick could avoid some of that by not showing up to public events to accept keys to a city for doing nothing.

[theebs]

The ticket said what I thought last night when watching the piece on the news. this looks like this guy is a fan of his and just wanted to meet the guy.

It also seemed to racial to me, like this guy was going out of his way to prop up a black icon.

Either way it makes no sense. Give him the key to atlanta or philly if he is such a role model now.

It makes zero sense to give him anything in dallas, except for the stuff spencer and ware dished out to
him.

by the way the ticket is calling him Dwaine Tashard...lol

[mldardy]

Vick could avoid some of that by not showing up to public events to accept keys to a city for doing nothing.
Yeah he should just go into hiding and no live his life.:rolleyes:

[mldardy]

The ticket said what I thought last night when watching the piece on the news. this looks like this guy is a fan of his and just wanted to meet the guy.

It also seemed to racial to me, like this guy was going out of his way to prop up a black icon.

Either way it makes no sense. Give him the key to atlanta or philly if he is such a role model now.

It makes zero sense to give him anything in dallas, except for the stuff spencer and ware dished out to
him.

by the way the ticket is calling him Dwaine Tashard...lol

You gotta love this everytime a black man supports another black man it automatically labeled as racist. Yet a certain race always gets labeled as crying racism. Seems to me it is the other way around these days. Where do you people come up with this stuff. Maybe the guy is a fan of Vick regardless of Vick's race.

[zrinkill]

Yeah he should just go into hiding and no live his life.:rolleyes:

So not accepting a fake key to the city would be him "no living his life"

What will you dog torturing defenders come up with next.

[theebs]

You gotta love this everytime a black man supports another black man it automatically labeled as racist. Yet a certain race always gets labeled as crying racism. Seems to me it is the other way around these days. Where do you people come up with this stuff. Maybe the guy is a fan of Vick regardless of Vick's race.


Im not saying he is a racist. I am saying he is a politician who appears to be playing to vick the black icon for attention. SImple as that.

Unless you think vick is not a black icon?

please note I said racial, not racist. Big difference

[DFWJC]

Vick could avoid some of that by not showing up to public events to accept keys to a city for doing nothing.

I see what you're saying...and giving him a key is unimaginably stupid.

Almost bad enough to say the guy who gave it to him should not be considered for future office.

I think if Vick refused the key, people would really have been all over him though...saying he is a conceited jerk, etc.

I would have liked to have seen him instead show up in public and say he is not deserving of this and instead there are thousands behind the scene that are so much more deserving. But that's in my little fantasy world.

This is a hot button topic and people have very strong feelings about it obviously.

I can understand the haters IF they truly don't believe he has changed at all or is sorry for what he did. It turns out that I'm one who do think he is repentant and sorrowful and is somewhat who is a better person now than before. But that is just me.

[mldardy]

So not accepting a fake key to the city would be him "no living his life"

What will you dog torturing defenders come up with next.
If someone honors him with a key to the city it wouldn't look very good not to show up. It is silly to say he should stop showing up in public. The guy is a QB in the NFL and he should just hide. That's not possible.

I knew this would turn it 'dog torturing defenders' territory. You have no idea what you are talking about. This isn't about defending dog torturing.

[mldardy]

Im not saying he is a racist. I am saying he is a politician who appears to be playing to vick the black icon for attention. SImple as that.

Unless you think vick is not a black icon?

please note I said racial, not racist. Big difference
Why is the politician racist? Because he is giving the key to a person that happens to be black. So what? Maybe he is a fan, obviously he is but that doesn't make him a racist because he gave it to a black athlete. You are just reaching for stuff that isn't there.

[theebs]

Why is the politician racist? Because he is giving the key to a person that happens to be black. So what? Maybe he is a fan, obviously he is but that doesn't make him a racist because he gave it to a black athlete. You are just reaching for stuff that isn't there.


again. You are using the term racist. I did not use that term. I said racial.

big difference.

[theebs]

This guy is on with the musers right now.

He is claiming this was all for the children.

What a moron.

[zrinkill]

This isn't about defending dog torturing.

Exactly what it is.

If the guy had not got caught ..... he would still be doing it.

But because he got caught we are supposed to believe he is a changed man.

And we are supposed to give him the key to a city because he has not tortured a dog (publicly) in 3 years.

What an accomplishment.

[theebs]

lol

Gordon just said to him It seems you just wanted to meet vick and he cut them off and said OH HELLL NAWWW...

that was pretty funny.

[mldardy]

Exactly what it is.

If the guy had not got caught ..... he would still be doing it.

But because he got caught we are supposed to believe he is a changed man.

And we are supposed to give him the key to a city because he has not tortured a dog (publicly) in 3 years.

What an accomplishment.
That's exactly what it is to YOU. I am not defending dog torturing.

People make me laugh with obvious 'if he didn't get caught he would still be doing it' line. OFF COURSE HE WOULD still be doing it. If someone is robbing banks and never got caught you better believe they would still be doing it over and over again. He did get caught and hopefully it makes him a better person and that he learned a hard lesson. Time will tell. It's not up to me or you or anyone else to decide whether he is a better person or learned his lesson. Vick is the only person in control of that.

[theebs]

He just said he is getting racist emails and made it a point to say there were white kids and hispanic kids there also.

lol He just said he wouldnt give a key to OJ.

lol

[DFWJC]

That's exactly what it is to YOU. I am not defending dog torturing.

People make me laugh with obvious 'if he didn't get caught he would still be doing it' line. OFF COURSE HE WOULD still be doing it. If someone is robbing banks and never got caught you better believe they would still be doing it over and over again. He did get caught and hopefully it makes him a better person and that he learned a hard lesson. Time will tell. It's not up to me or you or anyone else to decide whether he is a better person or learned his lesson. Vick is the only person in control of that.
You nailed it, imo.

[Chocolate Lab]

by the way the ticket is calling him Dwaine Tashard...lol

This guy is on with the musers right now.

He is claiming this was all for the children.

What a moron.

lol

Gordon just said to him It seems you just wanted to meet vick and he cut them off and said OH HELLL NAWWW...
:laugh1:

[tyke1doe]

So not accepting a fake key to the city would be him "no living his life"

What will you dog torturing defenders come up with next.

Well, Vick is trying to restore his reputation, which will be very hard to do. Standing in his shoes, I would accept the key also. It's part of his road to recovery, so to speak.

Look, here's the problem. You have people who ate Vick and will never forgive him. These people wish he would go away and hide under a rock for his crimes.

You have others who understand the rules of our society and who are willing to give him grace and forgive him.

Then you have Michael Vick, who is given a second chance and who wants to do all he can to "redeem" himself and restore his reputation. That's why he takes the key. And to be quite honest, I can't blame him.

[zrinkill]

He just said he is getting racist emails and made it a point to say there were white kids and hispanic kids there also.

lol He just said he wouldnt give a key to OJ.

lol

That guy sounds as desperate as dog killers defenders on this board.

I ask again to the defenders .... what has the fool accomplished off the football field that deserves getting a key to the city.

Not torturing dogs for 3 years? Getting released from prison?

[tyke1doe]

Im not saying he is a racist. I am saying he is a politician who appears to be playing to vick the black icon for attention. SImple as that.

Unless you think vick is not a black icon?

please note I said racial, not racist. Big difference

Why does race enter the equation?

Why could it not be that this councilman wants an autography from an NFL quarterback who his son likes? :confused:

Would you say the same if the quarterback were white and the councilman was white? Would that situation be "racial"?

[kapolani]

Safe to say that you are not a Christian:laugh2:

Tell us how you really feel!

Sort of kidding there. I guess if you really think he has not changed, it is different.

But seriously
So people can't learn, repent, or change...and can never be forgiven?
Let's see how that works out for you in life.


You would be wrong.

My God is the God of the Old Testament. "Eye for an eye" and all that good stuff...

Repentance just gives people the excuse to do evil things. So, you're saying that as long as you're remorseful and feign repentance all is forgiven?

Bullcrap. People like this can't change. You do something like that over and over because you enjoy it. You're saying the core of a person can be changed? Hogwash...

[tyke1doe]

He is claiming this was all for the children.


The ole Tashard Choice defense. :laugh2:

[zrinkill]

wants to do all he can to "redeem" himself

What evidence do you have that he wants to do that?

[tyke1doe]

You would be wrong.

My God is the God of the Old Testament. "Eye for an eye" and all the good stuff...

You do know the New Testament not the Old Testament outlines the conduct for Christians, right?

[Venger]

The problem is not that Vick accepted the key, the problem is some toady ****** in Dallas thought it appropriate to give it to him in the first place. There is nothing - NOTHING - intellectual congruous about offering Michael Vick a key to the City of Dallas. He has done nothing worthy of being honored by Dallas, in fact he has been shown to be a relatively dishonorable person.

To those who think Vick did his time and is now equal among us - no, he's not. He's a felon. He cannot vote in most states, he cannot carry a gun, he has a list of social privilieges he cannot partake in BECAUSE he is a felon. He is free from jail having served his time, the slate is not wiped clean. Frankly, I think he's a thug who got off on watching the misery of animals, which is a sociopathic precursor. I have no personal beef with him, but to honor him is the height of moral blindness.

[theebs]

Why does race enter the equation?

Why could it not be that this councilman wants an autography from an NFL quarterback who his son likes? :confused:

Would you say the same if the quarterback were white and the councilman was white? Would that situation be "racial"?

Yes.

and again, there is nothing wrong with saying something is racial. It doesnt mean someone is racist.

again my point was that to me it was a politician tyring to play to a crowd with an icon, who happens to be a black icon. And please dont try to tell me vick is not a black icon.

That is why he gave him the key. It was like he was treating him like a hero of some sort.

the whole thing is insane. And for the guy to say it was all about the kids is hillarious.

[zrinkill]

The problem is not that Vick accepted the key, the problem is some toady ****** in Dallas thought it appropriate to give it to him in the first place. There is nothing - NOTHING - intellectual congruous about offering Michael Vick a key to the City of Dallas. He has done nothing worthy of being honored by Dallas, in fact he has been shown to be a relatively dishonorable person.

To those who think Vick did his time and is now equal among us - no, he's not. He's a felon. He cannot vote in most states, he cannot carry a gun, he has a list of social privilieges he cannot partake in BECAUSE he is a felon. He is free from jail having served his time, the slate is not wiped clean. Frankly, I think he's a thug who got off on watching the misery of animals, which is a sociopathic precursor. I have no personal beef with him, but to honor him is the height of moral blindness.


You nailed it.

[theebs]

The ole Tashard Choice defense. :laugh2:
the best part is when Junior miller pointed out that vick is such a scumbag he even took his childrens dogs, the family pets and threw them in there to get slaughtered.

All about the children!!!

[tyke1doe]

What evidence do you have that he wants to do that?

Aside from his efforts to remake his image, to meet with Tony Dungy, to encourage children to avoid his same path, and not to mention the numerous stories pointing out how he wants to redeem himself?

Vick wants road to redemption (http://thevibe.socialvibe.com/index.php/2009/05/20/hsus-gives-michael-vick-a-chance-to-redeem-himself/)


"He said this experience has been a trauma and he’s changed forever. And he said he wants to show the American public that he is committed to helping combat this problem. He asked for an opportunity to help. I want to give him that opportunity. If he makes the most of it, and demonstrates a sincere, long-term commitment to the task, then it may prove to be a tipping point in our campaign to eradicate dogfighting. If he demonstrates a fleeting or superficial interest, then it will be his own failing, not ours. Our campaign will march forward regardless. It’s up to him, and we at The HSUS reserve judgment until he demonstrates that he’s part of the solution rather than a further part of the problem."

[tyke1doe]

Yes.

and again, there is nothing wrong with saying something is racial. It doesnt mean someone is racist.

again my point was that to me it was a politician tyring to play to a crowd with an icon, who happens to be a black icon. And please dont try to tell me vick is not a black icon.

That is why he gave him the key. It was like he was treating him like a hero of some sort.

the whole thing is insane. And for the guy to say it was all about the kids is hillarious.

I wouldn't say it's wrong. But I would question why you would interject race into a situation like this. And that's the point I think the poster who first raised this question was making.

To a black person (and I speak thus because I am black) we're used to people observing blacks involved in a matter and making a racial connection. Yet when a situation involves whites, race isn't an issue. (I generalize of course.)

I don't think it (race) should be in this issue. You merely have a councilman wanting to honor Vick. The fact both are black shouldn't even be an issue. When it becomes an issue, even in the form of a question, it raises questions in my mind why their race is even part of the story. What relevance does it have with this situation?

If it has revelance, that's one thing. But you haven't stated why it has relevance. And even if you have a good argument, I would still question why race has been made the issue and not the dumb gesture made by this councilman.

It was a dumb thing for this councilman to do.

[zrinkill]

Aside from his efforts to remake his image, to meet with Tony Dungy, to encourage children to avoid his same path, and not to mention the numerous stories pointing out how he wants to redeem himself?


How is meeting with Dungy qualify?

How about the numerous stories of him still hanging out with the same type of thugs?

His criminal laden entourage?

The shooting at his birthday party.

[Hostile]

The problem is not that Vick accepted the key, the problem is some toady ****** in Dallas thought it appropriate to give it to him in the first place. There is nothing - NOTHING - intellectual congruous about offering Michael Vick a key to the City of Dallas. He has done nothing worthy of being honored by Dallas, in fact he has been shown to be a relatively dishonorable person.

To those who think Vick did his time and is now equal among us - no, he's not. He's a felon. He cannot vote in most states, he cannot carry a gun, he has a list of social privilieges he cannot partake in BECAUSE he is a felon. He is free from jail having served his time, the slate is not wiped clean. Frankly, I think he's a thug who got off on watching the misery of animals, which is a sociopathic precursor. I have no personal beef with him, but to honor him is the height of moral blindness.:bow:

[tyke1doe]

How is meeting with Dungy qualify?

Because Tony Dungy is widely regarded as one of the most honest coaches/figures in our country.


How about the numerous stories of him still hanging out with the same type of thugs?

I'm not aware of these stories so maybe they're not as numerous as you suggest. Again, I don't follow Vick that closely. I'm not that interested in him to be honest. But it's interesting I heard about this situation and not the other situations of his so-called hanging with da thugs.


His criminal laden entourage?

You have any evidence that his entourage is "criminal laden"?

The shooting at his birthday party.

You mean a shooting that occurred after he left?

[DFWJC]

You would be wrong.

My God is the God of the Old Testament. "Eye for an eye" and all that good stuff...

Repentance just gives people the excuse to do evil things. So, you're saying that as long as you're remorseful and feign repentance all is forgiven?

..
Wow. So Old Testament only.
Let's leave out all of that JC stuff as it might get in the way of your version of Christianity.
:lmao2:
Okay, I'm off on a tangent here and this is not the topic.

At least we both agree the guy does not deserve a key to a city.

Hey, I really do understand that if you think he really has not paid his dues or is not repentant, then you may still hate the guy.

That is your right to feel that way.

[Hostile]

Are cites around America honoring Vick for something that I am unaware of? Has he done something worthy of such an honor? I don't see it. It is especially odd to see it happen in Dallas. I can see Philadelphia. I can even see Atlanta or his hometown in Virginia. I cannot see Dallas.

Before the Super Bowl they honored a soldier who is the first living recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor since Viet Nam. That is a guy who you give keys to the city and honor. The kid who saved Congresswoman Giffords life here in Tucson. That is who you give keys to the city and honor. Someone who has done something noble.

What noble thing has he done? His time? So every ex-con is noble because they've done their time? Why aren't they given keys to their city then? Why should they report to a parole officer if they are noble for having done their time?

Look, Vick paid his debt to society. That doesn't erase public perception. I know this from personal experience. My Dad went to jail. I paid a price for his sins. I had a stigma attached to me for a long time until I proved my value to society and earned the trust I have achieved. No one ever gave my Dad a key to a city and he served his time.

Do you trust pedophiles to live in your neighborhood just because they have paid their debt to society? If you do, you're a better man than I am and I wish you luck if you have children. Me, I prefer to remain skeptical. I have rarely seen someone on the way to death row who doesn't want you to know they found religion. Congratulations, you're still too late to the clean slate public perception ball.

But hey, if you can throw a football you can get a key to the city. There's a precedent set.

[kapolani]

You do know the New Testament not the Old Testament outlines the conduct for Christians, right?

That's why I said my God is of the Old Testament.

He will never be forgiven in my eyes. My family has always rescued dogs. My family has owned APBT's over the years.

He's scum that should have been put down.

[theebs]

I wouldn't say it's wrong. But I would question why you would interject race into a situation like this. And that's the point I think the poster who first raised this question was making.

To a black person (and I speak thus because I am black) we're used to people observing blacks involved in a matter and making a racial connection. Yet when a situation involves whites, race isn't an issue. (I generalize of course.)

I don't think it (race) should be in this issue. You merely have a councilman wanting to honor Vick. The fact both are black shouldn't even be an issue. When it becomes an issue, even in the form of a question, it raises questions in my mind why their race is even part of the story. What relevance does it have with this situation?

If it has revelance, that's one thing. But you haven't stated why it has relevance. And even if you have a good argument, I would still question why race has been made the issue and not the dumb gesture made by this councilman.

It was a dumb thing for this councilman to do.

I said I thought it could be racial because from the news piece I saw there were not people of many races, just one.

and from that since this whole thing is insane, I simply said it seems like the dude is playing to a crowd for his own political gain. I didnt and I havent said anyone was a racist. I think it is ok to talk about race without it being racist.

So since we all know vick has always been a black icon, the councilman who doesnt know vick at all seemed to me to be playing him up as a hero to a crowd who already views him as that I would be willing to bet on some level. And that is why I said I thought he gave him the key to the city, its like he was saying look at me I prop up your heroes.

Its no different than when gov rick perry props up some white politician who is all about abolishing the EPA to a group of wealthy white people who work in the energy field.

I didnt intend for it to be like he hates white people or something, simply again for the umpteenth time that he is playing to his crowd and promoting him as a hero by giving him the key in front of a crowd that probably wants to see him be a hero.

or he could just have a nephew who asked him to do it:laugh2:

[zrinkill]

I'm not aware of these stories so maybe they're not as numerous as you suggest. Again, I don't follow Vick that closely. I'm not that interested in him to be honest. But it's interesting I heard about this situation and not the other situations of his so-called hanging with da thugs.

Of course you haven't .... :laugh2: ..... Vick has been a perfect angel since he was unfairly imprisoned in your world.

You have any evidence that his entourage is "criminal laden"?

Look them up yourself .... its not hard.

You mean a shooting that occurred after he left?

what a coincidence ...... he said all the dog torture occurred after he left as well.

[tyke1doe]

That's why I said my God is of the Old Testament.

I'm going to say this and leave this discussion because it's really not the topic. DFWJC cited Christian. You said he was wrong. That's why I asked about the New Testament, which is where we understand more about Christian.

But I understand your point. Moving on.


He will never be forgiven in my eyes. My family has always rescued dogs. My family has owned APBT's over the years.
He's scum that should have been put down.

Based on your involvement with dog rescue, I can understand your feelings. I'll just leave it at that.

[tyke1doe]

Of course you haven't .... :laugh2: ..... Vick has been a perfect angel since he was unfairly imprisoned in your world.


Nice strawman. Find where I said he was "unfairly imprisoned"?
Please stop embarrassing yourself. If you don't have an argument or don't want to engage in a civil discussion, then say so so I can ignore you.


Look them up yourself .... its not hard.

I could have said the same for you regarding your request for evidence Vick is trying to redeem himself. I made the mistake in thinking you wanted to have a civil conversation and not a "catty" debate. So instead of responding similarly, I figured I'd do the leg work for you in hopes of getting you to understand what's really being discussed here. My bad.



what a coincidence ...... he said all the dog torture occurred after he left as well.

Translation: You really don't have an argument. You just want to take to task anyone who understands why Vick might want to redeem his image. To you, that means supporting a dog killer. Nice logic there. But I'm getting use to Internet debate tactics - dodge issues, create strawmen and ridicule those who have a different opinion than you.

Wash, rinse, dry. Wash, rinse, dry.

[zrinkill]

I could have said the same for you regarding your request for evidence Vick is trying to redeem himself.


Its Vicks job to prove he wants to change .... not anyone else to prove he has not.

Vick is still hanging with the same crowd. The kind of people he is hanging out with shot someone at his birthday party (that does not happen to most QB's in the league), there was numerous reports that say Vick left after the shooting but the DA and Goodell decided there was not enough evidence to prove either way.

As far as your translation ..... you have no evidence other than your burning desire to give the filth another chance.

I wish he had changed ...... I do not believe he has.

[FootballFan1]

Doesn't even matter if he changed (not) -- a duck, is a duck, is a duck. In other words, what he did is something that a "normal" person would not do. It goes to his character.

And it cost him -- money, so now he is trying to put on a different face. Anyone honestly think he is a different man?? No question in my mind. And it doesn't have a damn thing to do with race -- that is nonsense.

I think it is disgusting that a man like him even plays in the NFL. I would kick his sorry as* out the door. Is winning that important that you would have a man like him on your team????

Animal cruelty, child molestation, name it -- please kick these people out. Vick is a disgrace.

[Hoofbite]

So where the hell can you find the video?

And what does it look like so I can at least try to see it by a thumbnail pic.

Edit:

I found it.

Pretty much what I thought it would be.

[Hoofbite]

Its Vicks job to prove he wants to change .... not anyone else to prove he has not.

Vick is still hanging with the same crowd. The kind of people he is hanging out with shot someone at his birthday party (that does not happen to most QB's in the league), there was numerous reports that say Vick left after the shooting but the DA and Goodell decided there was not enough evidence to prove either way.

As far as your translation ..... you have no evidence other than your burning desire to give the filth another chance.

I wish he had changed ...... I do not believe he has.

You have zero clue as to who was in his circles back in his dog fighting days and who he is hanging with now.

I'd wager many of the people who he was hanging with back then flew off as soon as the money dried up and Vick was in jail.

The fact that he might have retained a friend or two from that time does not automatically mean he "runs in the same circles" or "hasn't changed".

And as far as anyone having evidence of anything the man currently does, there is none. None at all. Nobody can definitively say one way or the other what the guy does or does not do. You can speculate all you want and grind an axe to the thought of him being some monster but NOBODY can say with 100% certainty what he does.

[DFWJC]

That's why I said my God is of the Old Testament.

He will never be forgiven in my eyes.


That's perfectly fine...the point was that by definition, if you are not of the New Testemant as well, then obviously you cannot (as you claimed) possibly be Christian. It is not possible. Surely you understand this.

Having said that, everybody has a right to feel anyway they want to.

You have that right also.

Vick did some hideous things and should not be given a key to anywhere at this stage of his life. If you want to never forgive the guy, go for it.

[dreghorn2]

WRONG. This is part of the price he must pay if he is going to really convince people he has changed. Its up to him to convince people- to do that he has to handle scenes like this. AND by the way having hangers on like that does not help.

Great post, sums things up nicely.

'Mike Vick', if he has truly changed, would have to realize that a large segment of society is going to expect ongoing contrition at almost every opportunity.

Rightly or wrongly, any competent advisors, would be ceaselessly reinforcing this point to Vick, its just the way it is, despite what some posters in numerous Vick threads may want to think about 'hes paid his dues, he doesn't owe anybody anything etc..'

If he is really trying to reengage with the fans, sponsers, and the media he has to realize this. That video and his buddies doesn't give me the warm fuzzies about a new and improved guy.

Personally i am glad that posters are keeping these types of stories alive re: Vick, because i am hearing a great deal in the media about how a redeemed Mike is ready to take back his rightful place in society and the NFL.

I am hugely skeptical.

[dreghorn2]

The problem is not that Vick accepted the key, the problem is some toady ****** in Dallas thought it appropriate to give it to him in the first place. There is nothing - NOTHING - intellectual congruous about offering Michael Vick a key to the City of Dallas. He has done nothing worthy of being honored by Dallas, in fact he has been shown to be a relatively dishonorable person.

To those who think Vick did his time and is now equal among us - no, he's not. He's a felon. He cannot vote in most states, he cannot carry a gun, he has a list of social privilieges he cannot partake in BECAUSE he is a felon. He is free from jail having served his time, the slate is not wiped clean. Frankly, I think he's a thug who got off on watching the misery of animals, which is a sociopathic precursor. I have no personal beef with him, but to honor him is the height of moral blindness.

Another great post.

(i'm catching up in this thread)

[zrinkill]

You have zero clue as to who was in his circles back in his dog fighting days and who he is hanging with now.

Quanis Phillips
Marcus Vick
Purnell Peace
Tony Taylor

[Stautner]

WRONG. This is part of the price he must pay if he is going to really convince people he has changed. Its up to him to convince people- to do that he has to handle scenes like this. AND by the way having hangers on like that does not help.

WRONG.to

The price he has to pay is to talk about it, but not have it shoved down his throat at all times, and in whatever manner anyone chooses, or to talk at the whim of anyone who wants him to at the drop of a hat.

Do you think they should be able to trap him at restaraunts and air terminals and in public bathrooms too?

He has the right to control when he talks and where he talks, and it's ridiculous to believe that anyone has the right to cram anything down his throat at anytime.

[BlueStar3398]

I follow local news stations on FB and also several animals rescue groups. The majority of the people here are outraged that Vick was given the key to the city.

Yes, Vick did his time. Not for dog killing, but for Federal charges for funding an illegal operation. He says he's sorry for what he did and served his time. It's not up to me to forgive him. I'm sure he just wants all this to go away.

I do believe that if you give people enough time, their true character will be revealed.

There are people that see this guy as some kind of hero. Can someone please explain to me why? I don't get it? He's an amazing QB, but other than that, what makes him a hero?

[zrinkill]

There are people that see this guy as some kind of hero. Can someone please explain to me why? I don't get it?

apparently its because Tony Dungy said so.

[vta]

The guy who has his dog is richard hunter, former ticket host Big Dick hunter.

:lmao:

On Topic:

Vick could prosper or rot for all it really matters to me, but what's going to be gained by doing any of this? If Vick is the devil, he'll roast himself in some other way, following him around and acting like you're now his superior by demanding he answer to your questions is a load.

And in the end, does Vick's bald-faced lying in some PSA or whatever the hell he does really constitute anything other than being forced to do something to shut other people up? It's all fraudulent and no one should be surprised if he hasn't changed. Does jail time change people? Does getting in front of a camera and reading a statement someone else has written change a person?

[Stautner]

I follow local news stations on FB and also several animals rescue groups. The majority of the people here are outraged that Vick was given the key to the city.

Yes, Vick did his time. Not for dog killing, but for Federal charges for funding an illegal operation. He says he's sorry for what he did and served his time. It's not up to me to forgive him. I'm sure he just wants all this to go away.

I do believe that if you give people enough time, their true character will be revealed.

There are people that see this guy as some kind of hero. Can someone please explain to me why? I don't get it? He's an amazing QB, but other than that, what makes him a hero?

Did anyone ever find out who made the decision to give him the key to the city and why? It was an incredibly stupid thing for Dallas to do, and
i'm confused as to what the logic might have been.

[theebs]

Did anyone ever find out who made the decision to give him the key to the city and why? It was an incredibly stupid thing for Dallas to do, and
i'm confused as to what the logic might have been.


The dude explained it this morning.

It was for the children. All for the children.

[BlueStar3398]

Did anyone ever find out who made the decision to give him the key to the city and why? It was an incredibly stupid thing for Dallas to do, and
i'm confused as to what the logic might have been.

I read that it was a Pro Tem mayor, Dwaine Caraway that gave him the key. On Monday, Dallas Mayor Tom Leppert issued a statement saying that he in no way authorized or approved it. I guess the mayor saw how mad people were about it.

[Stautner]

The dude explained it this morning.

It was for the children. All for the children.

Many of whom have never had the opportunity to witness a professinoal dogfight live. Gotta feel good about this.

I read that it was a Pro Tem mayor, Dwaine Caraway that gave him the key. On Monday, Dallas Mayor Tom Leppert issued a statement saying that he in no way authorized or approved it. I guess the mayor saw how mad people were about it.

The mayor shouldn't have needed to wait for reaction - he should have known what the reaction would be. What was Caraway's reasoning?

[zrinkill]

Tell this Moron http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/zrinkill/dwaine.jpg, how you feel about this.


Mail can be sent to Dwaine via the following address:

Dwaine Caraway, Deputy Mayor Pro Tem
City of Dallas
Council District 4
1500 Marilla Street, Room 5EN
Dallas, Texas 75201-6390
Phone: (214) 670-0781

If you have a question or would like more information from Dwaine, please send an e-mail by completing this form.http://www.ci.dallas.tx.us/forms/mcc/CD04_Mail_Form.htm

Assistant: Stephanie Pegues (214) 670-0781

Secretary: Esmeralda Martinez (214) 670-7056

Dallas City Hall Website: Dallascityhall.com

Deputy Mayor Pro Tem Caraway's City Hall Page: link (http://www.dallascityhall.com/government/council/district_4.html)


http://www.dwainecaraway.com/

There was all the info to contact the idiots office.

[DFWJC]

There was all the info to contact the idiots office.
I'd say his chance of becoming an elected Mayor just declined significantly.:shatfan:

[Stautner]

I'd say his chance of becoming an elected Mayor just declined significantly.:shatfan:
Are you kidding, with the support of PETA, the SPCA, the Humane Society and the US Veterinarian's Association he should be a shoo in.

[BlueStar3398]

Many of whom have never had the opportunity to witness a professinoal dogfight live. Gotta feel good about this.

The mayor shouldn't have needed to wait for reaction - he should have known what the reaction would be. What was Caraway's reasoning?

Like Theebs said, he claims it was for the kids. :laugh2:

He said he wanted to show them that you can turn your life around or something like that. :rolleyes:

[baj1dallas]

WRONG. This is part of the price he must pay if he is going to really convince people he has changed. Its up to him to convince people- to do that he has to handle scenes like this. AND by the way having hangers on like that does not help.

No it's not the price he has to pay. He has to do NOTHING except for satisfy his team and stay clear of the law. He doesn't owe any dog lovers anything, especially considering that they have made up their minds and aren't going to change their opinion of Vick anyway.

[tyke1doe]

Its Vicks job to prove he wants to change .... not anyone else to prove he has not.

Okay. When did I say otherwise? :huh:

Second, it seems you're more upset because people "defend" Vick - whatever that means. I don't think anyone has defended Vick's actions. In fact, I've already said it was dumb for this councilman to award Vick a key to the city.

However, you asked me what evidence I had Vick is trying to redeem himself. I gave you my answer. Whether people believe him is another matter. And, quite frankly, the skepticism he has created is a result of his own actions. So I agree with you.

Vick is still hanging with the same crowd. The kind of people he is hanging out with shot someone at his birthday party (that does not happen to most QB's in the league), there was numerous reports that say Vick left after the shooting but the DA and Goodell decided there was not enough evidence to prove either way.

So if there's not enough evidence, that assumes it is highly likely he did leave.

Now, I agree with you. If Vick is hanging around thugs, he needs to shed those friends. But ... I have some concerns in that ...

a.) Many people see "menacing-looking" black guys and assume they're thugs, and
b.) Many of these people may be a circle of friends who have no connections with dog fighting. All guys who cuss aren't exactly bad guys or thugs - non-religiously speaking, of course.

As far as your translation ..... you have no evidence other than your burning desire to give the filth another chance.

Sorry, you can't copy my shtick. ;)

Please quit with the strawmen. It doesn't help your argument and makes you look small.

The only evidence I was asked for is why I felt Vick was trying to redeem himself. I provided that evidence.

As for giving Vick another chance, uh, society has given him that chance, which is why he's out of jail. You may not like that, but I didn't write the legal code, didn't write the constitution and didn't decide his fate in a court of law. Those matters were decided outside my - and your - opinion.


I wish he had changed ...... I do not believe he has.

And you're welcomed to your belief, just as others are theirs.

[Achilleslastand]

Vick is a thug....always was and always will be. The atrocious things he did to those dogs were a sign of a sick mind. If you think he has completly turned this around in this amount of time i have some beachfront property in kansas to sell you.
If i was betting on his recovery or his relapse i would lay all my money on a relapse.
The behaviors he has displayed in his life just do not go away w/o years and years of therapy.
Dont worry tho all you Vick lovers......sooner or later he will slip up and be back in the front pages.

[Dash28]

What evidence do you have that he wants to do that?
This.

He's scum.

[theebs]

I am listening to big dick hunter on the fan right now talking about this.

He said he wanted to ask vick two questions:

1. He says he is rehabilitating and he wanted to know how, psychiatrist, charity etc...How...he thinks it is just something he says to help his image.

2. He repeatedly says his family wants a dog and that it would help him so he was going to ask him why he threw his family pets into the fighting to get killed while he watched and laughed and if he wanted the pitbull that was from his fighting ring that hunter has.

apparently vicks bodyguards told hunter get out of here we dont care about no dogs....

Hunter said he is going forward with this because of the stuff that vick did that no one talks about, like killing the family pets for fun and that he is a sociopath and that he is not actually in rehab, but he keeps hearing him say it.

[Cowboys&LakersFan]

Vick is really the only classy Eagle. People really need get off his back already. I though America was about forgiving guess not.

[Dash28]

Vick is really the only classy Eagle. People really need get of his back already. I though America was about forgiving guess not.
:lmao2:

[Cowboys&LakersFan]

:lmao2:

What's so funny?

[Phoenix-Talon]

There are some very strong feelings here regarding M-Vick; on both sides of the table.

[Chocolate Lab]

What's so funny?

Your post was serious?

[Cowboys&LakersFan]

Your post was serious?

Duh..

[Hoofbite]

I am listening to big dick hunter on the fan right now talking about this.

He said he wanted to ask vick two questions:

1. He says he is rehabilitating and he wanted to know how, psychiatrist, charity etc...How...he thinks it is just something he says to help his image.

2. He repeatedly says his family wants a dog and that it would help him so he was going to ask him why he threw his family pets into the fighting to get killed while he watched and laughed and if he wanted the pitbull that was from his fighting ring that hunter has.

apparently vicks bodyguards told hunter get out of here we dont care about no dogs....

Pretty much what happened. This guy was just trying to instigate and got told to screw off.

Hunter said he is going forward with this because of the stuff that vick did that no one talks about, like killing the family pets for fun and that he is a sociopath and that he is not actually in rehab, but he keeps hearing him say it.

Who hasn't heard about it? We know all the details. He drown them, electrocuted them and threw weak dogs in to be slaughtered. This guy's "going forward" with it to tell us all the stuff we already knew?

[Kaika]

Ok , If someone can torture animals the way Vick was convicted of, I don't believe that person can change his feelings or emotions.

You can say you want to change and you can say you hate what you've done ,but you can't help yourself if it's in your nature.

Lets reverse rolls. Could you electrocute, drown,hang and beat to death an animal. No. It isn't in your nature. You can't change the way you feel.

Saying he's sorry for what he has done is one thing ,but to change your feelings or moral conscious? Sorry ,he can't.

Nope I don't buy it.. Just saying and doing what society wants to hear.

JMO:cool:

[Hoofbite]

Quanis Phillips
Marcus Vick
Purnell Peace
Tony Taylor

1. You don't know in what capacity he affiliates with any of these people. That much is clear. You can't say you do because you can't pull that sort of info from an ESPN article.

2. Phillips was the guy who got shot. Somehow he is both affiliated enough with Vick to make your case that he runs around with the same people but not enough to avoid gunfire at Vick's party.

3. You really think the guy is going to disown his brother?

4. I'll say it again. Him having retained a few of the guys he used to hang out with doesn't even remotely suggest that he runs in the same circles or hasn't changed.

To be honest, I don't think Vick really has any remorse for what he did. I can't definitively say he doesn't because I don't know. I think he did some pretty nasty stuff. Stuff I could never imagine anyone doing. Do I hate him for it? No, because I don't care to carry hate with me over something like that. I despise what he did but the man settled up in the eyes of the justice system and I don't see any reason to constantly dwell or carry with me any sort of hate over a person I will never even meet, know, talk to or even run across.

Maybe that's just me though.

[BlueStar3398]

Ok , If someone can torture animals the way Vick was convicted of, I don't believe that person can change his feelings or emotions.

You can say you want to change and you can say you hate what you've done ,but you can't help yourself if it's in your nature.

Lets reverse rolls. Could you electrocute, drown,hang and beat to death an animal. No. It isn't in your nature. You can't change the way you feel.

Saying he's sorry for what he has done is one thing ,but to change your feelings or moral conscious? Sorry ,he can't.

Nope I don't buy it.. Just saying and doing what society wants to hear.

JMO:cool:

I didn't know a thing about dog fighting until Vick was arrested for it. I had no idea they tortured and killed the dogs that lost the fights. :( Then, I heard about the family pets being thrown in the pit to be devoured and it broke my heart. My dog is an angel. I can't imagine anyone doing that to her.

[theebs]

Pretty much what happened. This guy was just trying to instigate and got told to screw off.



Who hasn't heard about it? We know all the details. He drown them, electrocuted them and threw weak dogs in to be slaughtered. This guy's "going forward" with it to tell us all the stuff we already knew?


yeah that is what he is doing apparently though.

[vta]

There are some very strong feelings here regarding M-Vick; on both sides of the table.

The wages of idolatry...

[DFWJC]

I didn't know a thing about dog fighting until Vick was arrested for it. I had no idea they tortured and killed the dogs that lost the fights. :( Then, I heard about the family pets being thrown in the pit to be devoured and it broke my heart. My dog is an angel. I can't imagine anyone doing that to her.
Yes "heard about" is right. Get used to hearing ever-growing tales....some even true.
The stories will keep growing. You had thugs telling on thugs to save their arses. The better the tale the better the deal.

The prosecutors wanted a high profile scapegoat and found one in a guilty Vick. He was not even there 5-10% of the time, but he was the guy who owned the place and he was the famous QB...and yes, he was guilty.

At this rate, before long the stories will say it was also people that he killed...maybe peeled their skin away or something. Then even the Nazi camps will pale to what he did. Finally Satan will bow down to the never repentant evil doing Vick and all the pious, picture perfect people of the world will cringe in horror but feel so good about themselves because nobody will ever have to give them a second chance.

They'll say "Nobody can learn from that mistake, nobody gets in trouble and gets better...ever. Especially not this dude".

I really can't defend this guy's actions, and I'm glad he paid a hard price for them. But the level of holier than thouness (new word?) is really comical when this topic comes up.

It's an endless spiral of hate flung on to a guy who brought it on to himself but will now never be allowed redemption.

[silverbear]

I called it ......

Yeah, that was tough to predict... LOL...

I find myself wondering if JVita ever posts in any thread that does not involve Vick... of course, it speaks to his character that his idol is a convicted felon...

[silverbear]

You remind me of ESPN reporting on the Cowboys. Hater.

It beats licking the boots of a piece of crap like Vick...

[silverbear]

He can give Vick his keys to his dog kennel then!

I'm sure he'd have no problem with doing that... in fact, if JVita owns a kennel, you can bet your last dollar that he's raising pit bulls, and doing the same thing with them that Vick did with his...

Hmmmmm, that might explain why JVita was so desperate in his defense of Vick... :D

What's ironic about his staunch defense is Vick would never let him within 50 feet of him...

[SA_Gunslinger]

Anybody else want to embarrass and insult Dallas by kissing Vick's butt? This is absolutely ridiculous. Completely insulting yet again.

Props to the ACTUAL mayor of Dallas coming out and basically calling this a moronic move by Caraway, and an unsanctioned one by his office and the city of Dallas. Sounds to me like a politician needed to hear his name is the papers.

Bottom line, Vick....we don't like you, we don't respect you, and I'm not buying your "new image". Court ordered acts of service do not move me emotionally. It makes me sick that people are buying this guys' jerseys again and handing him millions of dollars just b/c he can throw a football.

Get off this guy's jock. He's no one to be admired.

:starspin

[silverbear]

I didn't know a thing about dog fighting until Vick was arrested for it. I had no idea they tortured and killed the dogs that lost the fights. :( Then, I heard about the family pets being thrown in the pit to be devoured and it broke my heart. My dog is an angel. I can't imagine anyone doing that to her.


Think about that for a second-- he took his kid's pets and threw them in the pit to be killed... and now, he wants a dog...

For his kids...

Sorry, but that was the first sign I saw that he was NOT a changed man; if he was, he'd understand why the law forbids him from owning another dog right now...

Man, how can anyone be so sick, so twisted, as to murder his own kids' pets??

[silverbear]

Yes "heard about" is right. Get used to hearing ever-growing tales....some even true.
The stories will keep growing. You had thugs telling on thugs to save their arses. The better the tale the better the deal.

The prosecutors wanted a high profile scapegoat and found one in a guilty Vick. He was not even there 5-10% of the time, but he was the guy who owned the place and he was the famous QB...and yes, he was guilty.

There ya go-- he OWNED the Bad Newz Kennels... IOW, without him, it doesn't exist, his partners in crime lacked the financial backing to go running around the country from dog fight to dog fight...

I really can't defend this guy's actions, and I'm glad he paid a hard price for them. But the level of holier than thouness (new word?) is really comical when this topic comes up.

Oh, I feel quite confident that I'm at least holier than Vick... I mean, I've never killed a dog in my life... never even wanted to...

It's an endless spiral of hate flung on to a guy who brought it on to himself but will now never be allowed redemption.

Nope, when you do certain things, you're never allowed "redemption" in the court of public opinion... Vick made his bed, now he has to lie in it... and he has nobody but himself to blame for that, I for one haven't wasted one second feeling sorry for him... to the contrary, it warms my heart to know that he's still up to his eyeballs in debt, the kind of debt he'll probably never get out from under...

[Joe Realist]

I despise Vick

[Maikeru-sama]

Much ado about nothing.

Lol at Big Dick Hunter, haven't heard that name in years.

[Maikeru-sama]

Anybody else want to embarrass and insult Dallas by kissing Vick's butt? This is absolutely ridiculous. Completely insulting yet again.

Props to the ACTUAL mayor of Dallas coming out and basically calling this a moronic move by Caraway, and an unsanctioned one by his office and the city of Dallas. Sounds to me like a politician needed to hear his name is the papers.

Bottom line, Vick....we don't like you, we don't respect you, and I'm not buying your "new image". Court ordered acts of service do not move me emotionally. It makes me sick that people are buying this guys' jerseys again and handing him millions of dollars just b/c he can throw a football.

Get off this guy's jock. He's no one to be admired.

:starspin

Not trying to be smart arse, but most of the folks that seem to be on the guy's jock are the ones that hate him.

[urface59]

Yes "heard about" is right. Get used to hearing ever-growing tales....some even true.
The stories will keep growing. You had thugs telling on thugs to save their arses. The better the tale the better the deal.

The prosecutors wanted a high profile scapegoat and found one in a guilty Vick. He was not even there 5-10% of the time, but he was the guy who owned the place and he was the famous QB...and yes, he was guilty.

At this rate, before long the stories will say it was also people that he killed...maybe peeled their skin away or something. Then even the Nazi camps will pale to what he did. Finally Satan will bow down to the never repentant evil doing Vick and all the pious, picture perfect people of the world will cringe in horror but feel so good about themselves because nobody will ever have to give them a second chance.

They'll say "Nobody can learn from that mistake, nobody gets in trouble and gets better...ever. Especially not this dude".

I really can't defend this guy's actions, and I'm glad he paid a hard price for them. But the level of holier than thouness (new word?) is really comical when this topic comes up.

It's an endless spiral of hate flung on to a guy who brought it on to himself but will now never be allowed redemption.

:clap2:

[Nirvana]

This is outrageous! That Mayor Pro Tem should be fired. And Vick should get some bodyguards who aren't thugs!

I've been a supporter of the comeback story with Vick, I believe in second chances. But seeing who he has chosen as bodyguards gives me pause as to how changed he is. Those guys are straight from the hood.

This is going to blow up.

If that Mayor Pro Tem wasn't black, he's already fired before I read about this. PETA et al will be ALL OVER this, demanding he be fired. The NAACP will be on the other side of this in battle for the Mayor Pro Tem and Vick. It's gonna get nasty.

[SaltwaterServr]

I honestly wish the people participating in this thread had taken a course or had a bit of knowledge in psychology.

Those that detest Vick would be inclined to take it to another level.

Those that defend him have to rectify psychotic behavior within their defense.

Michael Vick is a psychotic individual. His actions are inhumane. 2 years of jail time does not, in any way, cure what's wrong between his ears.

The man is a psychotic and indefensible.

[kapolani]

Then, I heard about the family pets being thrown in the pit to be devoured and it broke my heart. My dog is an angel. I can't imagine anyone doing that to her.

Wow.

Even I didn't know about that.

I would love to get him into my crew's pit out here in MD. I would gladly ground and pound his *** until I heard his neck snap.

Sick, sick, individual.

[burmafrd]

The stories about tossing small dogs to the fighting dogs happens in every single place that they train fighting dogs. So that is certainly not made up.

[DFWJC]

There ya go-- he OWNED the Bad Newz Kennels... IOW, without him, it doesn't exist, his partners in crime lacked the financial backing to go running around the country from dog fight to dog fight...



...
Well, I did mention he owned the kennels and I did mention that he was guilty as hades.

I also said it was beyond ridiculous to give him a key to the city---that any policeman, fireman, teacher, wor whatever deserved it much more.

I do not look up to this guy whatsoever.

I also said the guy who gave him the key should bever be elected.

I also said everyone has a right to feel whatever they want.

My point was that people can change. I understand the cynic in all of us says that he has not changed one bit.

I for one think he is not the person that owned (and at least sometime participated) in that nasty business. It's fine if you guys think I'm being naive. That's my problem. Again, I don't look up to him but I do believe in second chances after someone has paid such a steep price.

[ConcordCowboy]

Vick's urge to sadistically torture and kill animals is just like the urge of a pedophile.

There is no rehabilitation for these types of people.

Given the chance to do it again and not get caught they would.

Some will do it again...even if there is a chance of getting caught.

Some people are just trash.

Vick is one of those people.

[Stautner]

Ok , If someone can torture animals the way Vick was convicted of, I don't believe that person can change his feelings or emotions.

You can say you want to change and you can say you hate what you've done ,but you can't help yourself if it's in your nature.

Lets reverse rolls. Could you electrocute, drown,hang and beat to death an animal. No. It isn't in your nature. You can't change the way you feel.

Saying he's sorry for what he has done is one thing ,but to change your feelings or moral conscious? Sorry ,he can't.

Nope I don't buy it.. Just saying and doing what society wants to hear.

JMO:cool:

I take it you aren't a religious man because Christian faiths and many other religious faiths would disagree with your assessment.

[zrinkill]

Vick's urge to sadistically torture and kill animals is just like the urge of a pedophile.

There is no rehabilitation for these types of people.

Given the chance to do it again and not get caught they would.

Some will do it again...even if there is a chance of getting caught.

Some people are just trash.

Vick is one of those people.

I agree.

It takes a mentally disturbed person to torture an animal the way he did for pleasure.


.
.
.

[tyke1doe]

I honestly wish the people participating in this thread had taken a course or had a bit of knowledge in psychology.

Those that detest Vick would be inclined to take it to another level.

Those that defend him have to rectify psychotic behavior within their defense.



You want to explain?

[FootballFan1]

I take it you aren't a religious man because Christian faiths and many other religious faiths would disagree with your assessment.

There are plenty of sociopaths that attend church. And mean, selfish people. And there are plenty of people that don't go to church that have hearts of gold. I really don't understand what religion has to do with this discussion.

The discussion is about honoring a psychopath. Let him go find his religion, but please who wants him as a role model for our children. And when you commit a crime as heinous as his, no dose of church is going to change his basic character. As they say, a tiger does not change it's stripes.

What does this say for our children??? Just because you are a good football player, society will excuse your behavior. Killing and torture are NOT symbols I want to send to the kids of the world -- and say it is OK.

[BlueStar3398]

The stories about tossing small dogs to the fighting dogs happens in every single place that they train fighting dogs. So that is certainly not made up.

:( I was hoping it wasn't true.

[Stautner]

There are plenty of sociopaths that attend church. And mean, selfish people. And there are plenty of people that don't go to church that have hearts of gold. I really don't understand what religion has to do with this discussion.

The discussion is about honoring a psychopath. Let him go find his religion, but please who wants him as a role model for our children. And when you commit a crime as heinous as his, no dose of church is going to change his basic character. As they say, a tiger does not change it's stripes.

What does this say for our children??? Just because you are a good football player, society will excuse your behavior. Killing and torture are NOT symbols I want to send to the kids of the world -- and say it is OK.

If you don't understand the point, then I was right about yuo not being a religious man.

The point was that Christianity and other religions don't subscribe to your theory that a person cannot change.

If you aren't a religious man then you aren't bound by these beliefs, but if you claim you are, then you aren't practicing what you claim to be.

[burmafrd]

Its possible to change somewhat. But what makes a sociopath you cannot change. If that is indeed what he is.

[FootballFan1]

Its possible to change somewhat. But what makes a sociopath you cannot change. If that is indeed what he is.

Precisely my point.

What is capable of change is your viewpoints on subjects. For example, you may be a selfish person, and never did think about those that are without. With this economic downturn, many people now understand how those people lived -- because they themselves are without. Some people would become more selfish in the face of that, but many people now open their wallet and give -- even when they are without. And they are changed people.

But core character, you cannot change. It is genetic. It is WHO you are. Like your intelligence level -- yes, you can modify with help, but what you have, you have.

And psychopath is exactly the word I will attach to Vick. Without question, a sociopath -- at minimum. Sociopaths are those folks that have the inability for feel for others. Psychopaths cross the line and take action. Whatever sick thing is in their mind - normally, violent behavior.

It is called reality. I can "smell" a sociopath a mile away. Their actions reflect who they are. And some of those folks go to church. It is not what you say, it is what you do. Words are cheap. As with the case with Vick.

It is NOT normal behavior to kill and torture animals. If it were people, would you think the same??? I doubt it.

Sorry, but religion has NOTHING to do with this.

I know religion gives some people peace. But for many others, they don't need it to be a decent person. Decency and kindness come from within, without some "force" that tells you to be decent.

[Cowboys&LakersFan]

I'm sorry did I just hear killing a dog is similar to being a pedophile?

[FootballFan1]

I'm sorry did I just hear killing a dog is similar to being a pedophile?

I'm still here, so I will respond immediately. They are both sick people. Do we need to quantify it???

Neither are normal behavior. If you choose to "rank" the sickness, make your list. Torture in particular does not sit well with me, even if in your mind it is only an "animal". Trust me, most people do not share that view.

[Hoofbite]

I'm still here, so I will respond immediately. They are both sick people. Do we need to quantify it???

Neither are normal behavior. If you choose to "rank" the sickness, make your list. Torture in particular does not sit well with me, even if in your mind it is only an "animal". Trust me, most people do not share that view.

I dont think animal torture sits well with many.

Pedophilia though likely doesn't sit well with any.

I don't think theyre on the same level at all.

[urface59]

I cannot believe so many people have to justify their hate by now saying it is impossible for a person to change. I respect the opinion many people have that he has not changed, but I have zero respect for the ignorant claims that he simply cannot change and become a better person. That is such a weak justification to forever hate someone.

[Stautner]

Precisely my point.

What is capable of change is your viewpoints on subjects. For example, you may be a selfish person, and never did think about those that are without. With this economic downturn, many people now understand how those people lived -- because they themselves are without. Some people would become more selfish in the face of that, but many people now open their wallet and give -- even when they are without. And they are changed people.

But core character, you cannot change. It is genetic. It is WHO you are. Like your intelligence level -- yes, you can modify with help, but what you have, you have.

And psychopath is exactly the word I will attach to Vick. Without question, a sociopath -- at minimum. Sociopaths are those folks that have the inability for feel for others. Psychopaths cross the line and take action. Whatever sick thing is in their mind - normally, violent behavior.

It is called reality. I can "smell" a sociopath a mile away. Their actions reflect who they are. And some of those folks go to church. It is not what you say, it is what you do. Words are cheap. As with the case with Vick.

It is NOT normal behavior to kill and torture animals. If it were people, would you think the same??? I doubt it.

Sorry, but religion has NOTHING to do with this.

I know religion gives some people peace. But for many others, they don't need it to be a decent person. Decency and kindness come from within, without some "force" that tells you to be decent.

The police could use you to smell out sociopaths a mile away - you have a gift my friend - all knowing and ....... well ........ full of cow feces.

Vick did something dispicable - that's not a question. For you to claim to know his mind and his heart and his ability to change is pure hogwash to the point of being ridiculously laughable.

I will readily admit that I have doubts about how much Vick has changed, or will ever change, but the difference is I don't condemn him as having no chance to ever live a better life, and I leave myself open to the hope that he can change. Despite my doubts, I will give him the chance.

As for the initial topic of this thread, for anyone to think that Vick is obligated to allow people to openly challenge him, ridicule him or taunt him is also ridiculous.

[FootballFan1]

I dont think animal torture sits well with many.

Pedophilia though likely doesn't sit well with any.

I don't think theyre on the same level at all.

I agree, but what does it matter?? A pedophile is the lowest scum of the earth on this planet. Can you honestly think of anything worse??? And the worse part, they have the highest level of recidivism of any crime -- they simply CANNOT stop as long as they are not behind bars. That is the really scary part. How many lives do their ruin???

But that was my point, why are we gong to quantify the issue??? Sick is sick, however you rank the "crime". And torture of animals is something that no normal person would think as acceptable behavior. And certainly not a person that we would "honor". It is outrageous.

[Stautner]

I agree, but what does it matter?? A pedophile is the lowest scum of the earth on this planet. Can you honestly think of anything worse??? And the worse part, they have the highest level of recidivism of any crime -- they simply CANNOT stop as long as they are not behind bars. That is the really scary part. How many lives do their ruin???

But that was my point, why are we gong to quantify the issue??? Sick is sick, however you rank the "crime". And torture of animals is something that no normal person would think as acceptable behavior. And certainly not a person that we would "honor". It is outrageous.

I dona't see that anyone is honoring it or excusing it, we are just saying that Vick should not be eternally condemned without at least being given the chance to demonstrate he has changed. Sorry buddy, but if you feel yourself capable of passing eternal judgement on people you don't know and never will know then you are pretty guilty of inhuman behavior yourself.

[tyke1doe]

But core character, you cannot change. It is genetic. It is WHO you are. Like your intelligence level -- yes, you can modify with help, but what you have, you have.


This is an interesting point. So are you saying that people are genetically born psychopaths?
If so, how have we determined that?
And if this is the case, then why was Vick released in the first place, if he's so hardwire to kill a dog again?
It doesn't seem our society believes this. Otherwise, Vick would still be in jail.

Second, what do you mean by "IT is WHO YOU ARE?" Are you saying that Vick will kill another dog? There is no hope for rehabilitation for him?

I have more follow-up questions, but I'll await your response. Thanks.

[Stautner]

This is an interesting point. So are you saying that people are genetically born psychopaths?
If so, how have we determined that?
And if this is the case, then why was Vick released in the first place, if he's so hardwire to kill a dog again?
It doesn't seem our society believes this. Otherwise, Vick would still be in jail.

Second, what do you mean by "IT is WHO YOU ARE?" Are you saying that Vick will kill another dog? There is no hope for rehabilitation for him?

I have more follow-up questions, but I'll await your response. Thanks.

Good questions - I'm eager to hear his response.

Another question i would have is what makes him qualified to pass eternal judgement on a guy he has never met?

[tyke1doe]

I know religion gives some people peace. But for many others, they don't need it to be a decent person. Decency and kindness come from within, without some "force" that tells you to be decent.

So psychopathic tendencies are genetic. And decency and kindness are genetic too?

How does one get the decency and kindness gene and not the pyschopathic gene? :huh:

Oh, and if Vick is genetically predisposed to be a psychopath, then why are you registering moral outrage against his actions? I mean, if he's genetically predisposed to a certain behavior, doesn't that mean he MUST choose a course of behavior that he can't control or has no control over?

[FootballFan1]

I dona't see that anyone is honoring it or excusing it, we are just saying that Vick should not be eternally condemned without at least being given the chance to demonstrate he has changed. Sorry buddy, but if you feel yourself capable of passing eternal judgement on people you don't know and never will know then you are pretty guilty of inhuman behavior yourself.

Think whatever you choose. We certainly are not going to agree on this subject, so why waste our time???

And I base my judgments on actions, not words. Forgive all you want, and have him as a role model for YOUR children, not mine. Whatever.

One thing I have learned in life, no matter what the subject is there are always two different viewpoints. You are entitled to yours, and I as well. I am sure some people feel that animals are not worthy of our time and thoughts -- they are just animals. OK, whatever. I know people have that view. And I am to do what -- change their mind???

I do not understand it, but recognize different viewpoints. Nuff said.

[tomson75]

This is an interesting point. So are you saying that people are genetically born psychopaths?
If so, how have we determined that?
And if this is the case, then why was Vick released in the first place, if he's so hardwire to kill a dog again?
It doesn't seem our society believes this. Otherwise, Vick would still be in jail.

Second, what do you mean by "IT is WHO YOU ARE?" Are you saying that Vick will kill another dog? There is no hope for rehabilitation for him?

I have more follow-up questions, but I'll await your response. Thanks.

There have been countless studies that have showed links to personality traits (and disorders) to be genetically significant. It doesn't need to be determined, as it's essentially common knowledge these days.

Unfortunately, psychopaths have rights too.

There are always exceptions, of course, and one's ability to overcome one's own behavioral tendencies is another measure all together......but if anyone thinks Vick is capable of such transformation....well, they're just naive IMO.

I have several friends that know, or have met the guy.....not a single damn one of them believes he's the "new man" that he's being portrayed as (including the people that are his fans). Every damn one of them thinks he's still an ignorant, immature, POS.

As stupid as he seems to be, I doubt that Vick has the faculty to prove them wrong.

[Stautner]

So psychopathic tendencies are genetic. And decency and kindness are genetic too?

How does one get the decency and kindness gene and not the pyschopathic gene? :huh:

Maybe their mothers drank from the same glass that a psychopath drank from. Not really sure where the first psychopath came from though - there had to be one in the beginning of time in order to pass along the gene.

[Stautner]

Think whatever you choose. We certainly are not going to agree on this subject, so why waste our time???

And I base my judgments on actions, not words. Forgive all you want, and have him as a role model for YOUR children, not mine. Whatever.

One thing I have learned in life, no matter what the subject is there are always two different viewpoints. You are entitled to yours, and I as well. I am sure some people feel that animals are not worthy of our time and thoughts -- they are just animals. OK, whatever. I know people have that view. And I am to do what -- change their mind???

I do not understand it, but recognize different viewpoints. Nuff said.

No, you base your judgements on media reports of actions related to a specific part of Vick's life that may or may not be completely accurate, and you have no foundation for judging anything at all about Vick other than those media reports. Face it buddy, you have your nose buried up the media's anus and have no knowledge whatsover of Vick otherwise.

Are you judging anything about how he treats his mother, or charitable work, or possible displays of love and affection he may have shown to others?

Face it, you don't know if he steals money from the blind begger or pays for him to have a place to eat and sleep for the night. You don't know if he calls his mother a skank or dotes on her like a loving and grateful son. You have no idea about Vick at all other than mindlessly latching onto what the media tells you.

There have been countless studies that have showed links to personality traits (and disorders) to be genetically significant. It doesn't need to be determined, as it's essentially common knowledge these days.

Unfortunately, psychopaths have rights too.

There are always exceptions, of course, and one's ability to overcome one's own behavioral tendencies is another measure all together......but if anyone thinks Vick is capable of such transformation....well, they're just naive IMO.

I have several friends that know, or have met the guy.....not a single damn one of them believes he's the "new man" that he's being portrayed as (including the people that are his fans). Every damn one of them thinks he's still an ignorant, immature, POS.

As stupid as he seems to be, I doubt that Vick has the faculty to prove them wrong.

Whether you believe Vick is capable of change or not, he deserves the chance to change, and while it is natural to have disdain for his actions, it is just as immoral in my mind to cover a person you don't even know with a blanket and eternal condemnation. You and i are not qualified to do that, ether morally or intillectually.

[tyke1doe]

There have been countless studies that have showed links to personality traits (and disorders) to be genetically significant. It doesn't need to be determined, as it's essentially common knowledge these days.

Not so fast. While it is true that there may be genetics involved in behavior, it is also true that environment plays as much a part in anti-social behavior as genetics. It's the whole nature vs. nurture argument.

Michael Vick didn't become a dog killer because he was genetically programmed to. He did so because he has a sin nature (what I would call it) and because he was exposed to an environment that facilitated that sin nature.

Our society recognizes this, which is why we encourage people to avoid "bad" company, bad environments and focus hanging around "good" company and seeking out positive, nurturing environments.

But that begs the question. If we can "teach" people to choose good then why can't Vick reform? Is his background too much ingrained in him that he can't change? Who says so?

Moreover, it is a VERY, VERY, VERY DANGEROUS argument to advance that people are predisposed - by genetics - to commit crimes. You understand what type of society results in such a belief don't you? You give up on people even before they have the chance to grow into productive individuals.


Unfortunately, psychopaths have rights too.

And why do they have rights? Could it be because our society understands that they too can change?


There are always exceptions, of course, and one's ability to overcome one's own behavioral tendencies is another measure all together......but if anyone thinks Vick is capable of such transformation....well, they're just naive IMO.

Why?

Do you realize the same kind of psychology involved in killing dogs works with war veterans who kill humans? Many a war veteran (those who find the courage to talk about their experiences) testify that killing others in war took a traumatic toll on them. Many of them have returned to the States and either bottled the experience up inside or have sought counsel to deal with the brutality of war. Some war veterans have snapped killing others. But many don't.

Should we give up on those veterans because of the brutality of their experiences? Or should we find help for them also?

And, please, don't anyone take my analogy the wrong way. I'm not comparing war veterans with dog killers in the classic sense. I'm saying violent, brutal, inhumane circumstances are present in many, many situations. But we don't give up on people because they've done things unspeakable to the average person.

I have several friends that know, or have met the guy.....not a single damn one of them believes he's the "new man" that he's being portrayed as (including the people that are his fans). Every damn one of them thinks he's still an ignorant, immature, POS.

They've met him since he's left prison?

Second, does being immature and ignorant mean one will return to killing dogs?

Third, what difference does it make if he's a "new man"? I think we get too involved in whether someone has changed. Vick may want to kill dogs again. I don't know. But as long as he DOESN'T, that's the issue as far as I'm concerned.


As stupid as he seems to be, I doubt that Vick has the faculty to prove them wrong.

Whatever this means? :confused:

[tomson75]

No, you base your judgements on media reports of actions related to a specific part of Vick's life that may or may not be completely accurate, and you have no foundation for judging anything at all about Vick other than those media reports. Face it buddy, you have your nose buried up the media's anus and have no knowledge whatsover of Vick otherwise.

Are you judging anything about how he treats his mother, or charitable work, or possible displays of love and affection he may have shown to others?

Face it, you don't know if he steals money from the blind begger or pays for him to have a place to eat and sleep for the night. You don't know if he calls his mother a skank or dotes on her like a loving and grateful son. You have no idea about Vick at all other than mindlessly latching onto what the media tells you.



Whether you believe Vick is capable of change or not, he deserves the chance to change, and while it is natural to have disdain for his actions, it is just as immoral in my mind to cover a person you don't even know with a blanket and eternal condemnation. You and i are not qualified to do that, ether morally or intillectually.

I agree, but I'm free to have my opinions and my suspicions based on my intellectual (and somewhat personal) knowledge. I certainly don't have to buy the BS being slung out by the media pertaining to Vick's so-called enlightenment. It's a terrific case of widespread cluelessness....on both sides.

...but history, rational thought, and science would likely tend to side with those that thinks Vick's newfound greatness is more likely a case of a terrific PR guy and a good soaking in Febreeze.

[Maikeru-sama]

Stautner, Tyke1doe, DFWJC and Hoofbite taking folks to school .

It's down right embarrassing :bow: .

[FootballFan1]

Maybe their mothers drank from the same glass that a psychopath drank from. Not really sure where the first psychopath came from though - there had to be one in the beginning of time in order to pass along the gene.

I guess in your eyes, everyone is just wonderful. As long as they go to church.

Oy vey - and no I am not Jewish, just love the expression when it is appropriate. Oy vey, oy vey.

Just a quick thought -- when I started college I thought about going into Sociology. So my first class, there was a case where a guy threw gasoline at a woman and torched her -- she died. And he promptly stated (my teacher) that it was all because of his bad childhood and that we should have no prisons, only help for those that commit crimes. There are no bad people, only bad childhoods. I thought to myself, well, this is not going to work for me. And I went a different path.

Common sense. That is all it takes, common sense.

The theory of "clean slate" meaning that there are no bad people is naive. The theory of total genetic makeup is naive. It is a balance of the two -- and it is the lack of common sense to think otherwise. But then again, I know lots of people without common sense. In fact, I think it is the most important quality that you can have.

We are a product of genetics and our life. And they both influence our life. Good people go bad. Bad people live in society without creating problems. But when you are born, you are damn straight a person has a personality, intelligence level, and a genetic makeup -- including your ability to feel. And the environment you grow up either turns those "genetic" items one way or the other.

You only need common sense to understand this.

Off ---

[tomson75]

Stautner, Tyke1doe, DFWJC and Hoofbite taking folks to school .

It's down right embarrassing :bow: .

Not hardly. I'm guessing they've all stayed in a Holiday Inn Express recently.

[FootballFan1]

Not hardly. I'm guessing they've all stayed in a Holiday Inn Express recently.

Birds of a feather, flock together.

Off.

[tomson75]

Not so fast. While it is true that there may be genetics involved in behavior, it is also true that environment plays as much a part in anti-social behavior as genetics. It's the whole nature vs. nurture argument.

So you suggest we change his past environmental influences? You think he's changed because he wears a suit now? Or perhaps the other suit wearing thugs he still hangs out with have helped this social re-awakening?

Michael Vick didn't become a dog killer because he was genetically programmed to. He did so because he has a sin nature (what I would call it) and because he was exposed to an environment that facilitated that sin nature.

Right...and there is significant scientific evidence to suggest that if he had been raised in a different environment, he would likely have found a vice or anti-social behavior to participate in there, as well.

Our society recognizes this, which is why we encourage people to avoid "bad" company, bad environments and focus hanging around "good" company and seeking out positive, nurturing environments.

Right again. Only you've failed to recognize that "bad" company doesn't exist solely in Vick's childhood environment.

But that begs the question. If we can "teach" people to choose good then why can't Vick reform? Is his background too much ingrained in him that he can't change? Who says so?

Professionals say so. Not mediots.....which is largely the case here.

Of course we can teach people to choose good, and of course they can reform.....but they have to choose to do so, and often times that isn't even enough. I don't know the percentage of truly reformed psychopaths and sociopaths that come out of prison or professionally maintained mental health establishments....but I'm pretty sure its not a high number.

Moreover, it is a VERY, VERY, VERY DANGEROUS argument to advance that people are predisposed - by genetics - to commit crimes. You understand what type of society results in such a belief don't you? You give up on people even before they have the chance to grow into productive individuals.


It's not an argument. It's a scientific fact.

Whether they choose to follow those predispositions.....there's your argument. Hence "environment" coming into play.

I haven't given up on anyone. I simply hope they don't follow those biological tendencies. If they do, they pay the price. Usually that price isn't very high, and they continue to choose to give in.

Please tell me you aren't suggesting that Vick hasn't been given ample chance to grow into a productive individual....seriously?


And why do they have rights? Could it be because our society understands that they too can change?

Uhh....no. They have rights because everyone is given the same slate under our Constitution. When they've chosen to relinquish those rights by undertaking in illegal and anti-social behaviors deemed too immoral to justify....I cease to see that slate as clean simply because they say they're sorry. Personally, I'm going to need more proof than some dweeb in Bristol, Conn. having a man crush on you, or some chump on a message board gargling your droppings because you run fast. Convince me, or don't convince me....I don't care. But you're a POS until you do, and I don't want anyone telling my children you're a role model.


Do you realize the same kind of psychology involved in killing dogs works with war veterans who kill humans? Many a war veteran (those who find the courage to talk about their experiences) testify that killing others in war took a traumatic toll on them. Many of them have returned to the States and either bottled the experience up inside or have sought counsel to deal with the brutality of war. Some war veterans have snapped killing others. But many don't.

Should we give up on those veterans because of the brutality of their experiences? Or should we find help for them also?

And, please, don't anyone take my analogy the wrong way. I'm not comparing war veterans with dog killers in the classic sense. I'm saying violent, brutal, inhumane circumstances are present in many, many situations. But we don't give up on people because they've done things unspeakable to the average person.


This comes across as a very uninformed outside perception.

Anyone that's served in the military will tell you that it's a microcosm of our country. There are psychopaths, elitists, mama's boys, gays, nerds, jocks, gangsta wannabe's, and any other personality type you can imagine in those ranks.....this country's rules apply equally to them as well. While they may not be enforced as often or thoroughly due to various reasons, they should be held to those standards regardless. If you're asked to kill for god and country, and can't handle not being able to adjust afterward.....tough ****.

They've met him since he's left prison?

No, but they're a far better judge of his character than anyone on this forum. I'll take their word for it that Vick is an imbecilic gangster wannabe and that they'd bet he's simply "towing the line" to get out of trouble over the nonsensical ramblings of Vick's little posse on an internet forum.

Second, does being immature and ignorant mean one will return to killing dogs?


No. I never suggested it did, or that he would.

What it suggests, is that his alarmingly fast "new me" is probably a farce perpetuated by money, some good public relations advice, and a lot of misinformation dealt out to some very naive and simple minded fans.

Third, what difference does it make if he's a "new man"? I think we get too involved in whether someone has changed. Vick may want to kill dogs again. I don't know. But as long as he DOESN'T, that's the issue as far as I'm concerned.

That's an issue of whether or not he goes to jail or not.

If he's getting keys to cities, and being hailed as a role model to my children.....then **** yeah it matters to me whether or not he's the "new man" your mediot peers are so quick to idolize.


Whatever this means? :confused:

Try harder.

[Stautner]

I guess in your eyes, everyone is just wonderful. As long as they go to church.

Oy vey - and no I am not Jewish, just love the expression when it is appropriate. Oy vey, oy vey.

Just a quick thought -- when I started college I thought about going into Sociology. So my first class, there was a case where a guy threw gasoline at a woman and torched her -- she died. And he promptly stated (my teacher) that it was all because of his bad childhood and that we should have no prisons, only help for those that commit crimes. There are no bad people, only bad childhoods. I thought to myself, well, this is not going to work for me. And I went a different path.

Common sense. That is all it takes, common sense.

The theory of "clean slate" meaning that there are no bad people is naive. The theory of total genetic makeup is naive. It is a balance of the two -- and it is the lack of common sense to think otherwise. But then again, I know lots of people without common sense. In fact, I think it is the most important quality that you can have.

We are a product of genetics and our life. And they both influence our life. Good people go bad. Bad people live in society without creating problems. But when you are born, you are damn straight a person has a personality, intelligence level, and a genetic makeup -- including your ability to feel. And the environment you grow up either turns those "genetic" items one way or the other.

You only need common sense to understand this.

Off ---

This would be how you would take what I said - thinking hasn't been your hallmark.

I have clearly said that what Vick did was horrible, and have also clearly said I have doubts about how much he can or will change.

You took that as saying everyone is wonderful and there are no bad people - your 6th grade English teacher would be cringing. The SAT people must have laughed hysterically at your reading comprehension answers.

Now, lets look at what you said as it relates to what I really wrote and not your laughable interperetation of it.

Of course people have a genetic makeup, and of course there are some negative tendencies that people are predisposed toward. But is that absolute and does it condemn a person for life? After all, it is widely held that alcoholism is genetic, yet people join AA and change to a sober lifestyle all the time. Yes, many have relapses, and some sink all the way backofr even further into their addiction, but some don't. As such, is it fair to condemn every alcoholic for life, or does it make sense to say they deserve a chance to change?

Murderers have started prison ministires, people who have killed others in drunk driving accidents have dedicated their lives to preventing others from making the same mistakes, habitual drug users have cleaned up and become volunteers in educating kids about the consequences of drug use ....... sure these aren't the everyday norm, but they do happen, and wouldn't it have been wrong to have condemend these people for life without allowing them the chance to turn things around?

Besides, how is it that you can presume to know Michael Vick's genetic makeup? Again, you know news reports. You have no knowledge of him personally - how he relates to friends, family and acquaintances, if he has done good things, performed acts of kindness, supported charities - you are just assumeing he does nothing of value based on a blind assesment based entirely on media accounts of a specific incident in his life.

That's crap - you don't know all there is to know about Vick, or his genetic makeup, Vick, and neither do I. The difference is you continue to cling to the ridiculous claim that you do.

[JIMMYBUFFETT]

Just so I'm on record with everybody else on the forum, and my stance is clear:

Michael Vick is trash that I wish dead. No ribbon cutting, big brother big sister, donation to the Jehovah Witness, American Cancer Society dunking booth, walkathon, celebrity beach volleyball, crap will fool me. Michael Vick is exactly who he was convicted of being...a dirty criminal. He'll never be more.

[Maikeru-sama]

Not hardly. I'm guessing they've all stayed in a Holiday Inn Express recently.

Good one.

:laugh2:

[Draegerman]

I can't really speak to Vick receiving a key to the city but I can speak to Hunter's actions post-ceremony when he tried to talk to Vick about the pit bull he adopted from his compound.

As noted here before, I adopted one of Vick's dogs after his incarceration and I can tell each of you unequivocally...this dog literally saved my life. In fact, you might say that we saved each other.

Most of you already know that I'm disabled due to injuries I sustained in the military and that after serving 23 years in the US Army Special Forces, my life went from running on jet fuel to a life barely getting by on a cup of oatmeal. And even though I was financially secure, I fell very far down into a deep hole of depression and addiction.

I was a wreck to say the least.

One thing I learned along the way about myself through this ordeal was that without purpose, life is meaningless. I'd lost mine and thought I could never get it back - and then that's when I found Sunny.

I first read about the charges levied against Michael Vick four years ago. As a dog lover, I was horrified of the mistreatment of these animals and the stories of abuse they endured while under his care, so I wanted to help.

I just didn't know how.

Luckily (through a lot of due diligence), I found a rescue shelter in Virginia that specialized in the rescue of these type of animals. I was able to contact the lady who ran it and told her that I'd like to donate money to help her cause. She was receptive to the idea but dug a little deeper in our conversation about my situation and asked if I'd be interested in adopting one of the rescued animals instead.

I was hesistant, because of my health and the fact that these particuliar type of dogs had such a bad reputation. When I voiced these concerns, she "educated" me about the pit bull terrier and how they were probably the most misunderstood breed of dog known to man. I learned how these dogs are fiercely loyal and devoted to their humans. That they will place their complete trust in you and will go so far as to even make the ultimate sacrifice - if that's what it takes to please you. In the wrong hands, evil persons will take advantage of these traits and subject them to such horrors.

So I agreed - and when she got my background info and verified that I was who I claimed to be, she personally drove 450 miles across the state line to bring Sunny to me.

When she arrived and got out of the car, I fell in love with her right on the spot.

Sunny immediately came to me when I knelt down in front of her in the driveway. I was quickly given a lick on the hand and two in the face. Tonya (the lady who brought her down) stated that she'd never seen Sunny react like this towards men. Her words were that Sunny can sense something good inside me. I told her that it was probably the doggie treats inside my coat pocket. ;)

She was broken like me. Unable to walk without an egregious limp caused by severe abuse and advanced stages of arthritis. She also had bite marks (scars) on her brow where it was obvious that she had been fighting. The most disturbing thing, to me anyway, was the missing hair around her snout. Apparently, some ******* used duct tape around her mouth to keep her from biting back.

Thus began a deep rage I felt for Michael Vick & Co.

Together, we learned to heal. I devoted all my time to her. My house was an empty nest (kids in far away universities from home) and wifey had her career to think about. I'm unable to drive so it just made sense to be with my new dog all the time.

I paid thousands of dollars to a vet to get her patched up. I even started physical therapy again just so I could build my strength up to carry her around while her hind legs healed. I even went to Recovery for myself to get off the painkillers that had taken controll of my life since 2003. When I returned, I was able to take her on walks in the neighborhood (short distances at first) to help her rehabilitate. Tears come to my eyes just thinking about the first time she was able to run full speed again while fetching her ball.

At night, when she slept...those were the most difficult. She would have nightmares, terrible nightmares. There was a gurgling, whimpering sound she would make (almost like a little child) and it would break my heart everytime to hear it. Tonya told me that they found her tied up to a tree in a wooded area away from Vick's compound. She was alone and isolated, malnourished and badly sunburned when they rescued her. It was no wonder she had such bad nightmares. I would hold her everytime it happened and reassured her that she was now safe and, most importantly, loved.

I made a schedule up for us everyday and followed it religiously. I taught her to stay with me while walking in the neighborhood without the use of a dog leash (it's very difficult for me to hold her due to my spinal injury). The only time that she doesn't listen is whenever a cursed squirrel happens our way along the route. It's not like she would hurt one if she caught it, as was the case when she caught a bunny rabbit. She just wanted to play with it and tag is her favorite game. This led to a new nickname for her - Sunny Bunny (yes, I know - very cliche' but it's true).

Now don't get me wrong, as timid as I've made her out to be, she is still a pit bull terrier. But the only time it came out of her was when a very large male German Shepherd broke out of his fence one day and came charging at us during one of our walks. Before I could shout "Sunny, NO!", she was on him like white on rice. She released quickly once she heard me and the shepherd high-tailed it back home but it did remind me of just how powerful this dog really is - and it's scary strong, trust me.

We're still healing and probably will continue to do so for the rest of our lives, but that's okay because we have each other in this journey and that's fine by me. Sunny saved my life by giving me purpose to live again - and I'd like to think I'd saved her, too. I even found a way to forgive Michael Vick because if it hadn't been for his heinous acts towards these beautiful animals, I would have never found my Sunny.

So like Richard Hunter, I, too, would have tried to encounter Vick after the key-to-the-city-ceremony (sans video camera) just to take a moment and thank him for Sunny. He would have had no idea what I was talking about...

And quite honestly, that's fine by me, too.

[Draegerman]

Post note:

I desperately tried for over an hour to post a photo of Sunny once she was completely healthy on my original post.

It was an epic fail on my part to say the least. Hos tried to help me but nothing seemed to work.

Here's the link where the photo is stored:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/59340084@N04/5431146607/

The URL is: http://flic.kr/p/9gW3EK

If someone here could help figure this out, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[ChldsPlay]

Am I the only one that finds it funny that this thread is 12 pages (with my settings anyway) and the video doesn't show anything about Vick one way or the other? It just shows a stupid mayor pro tem.

[Hoofbite]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4137/5431146607_e601c33ffd.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/59340084@N04/5431146607/)
Sunny (http://www.flickr.com/photos/59340084@N04/5431146607/) by Draegerman (http://www.flickr.com/people/59340084@N04/), on Flickr

There ya go.

If you click on the big link and then click "share this".

Go down to "Grab the HTML/BBcode"

Select "BBcode" down at the bottom and copy that whole long address beginning with [url=

By the way, it's a great looking dog.

[Hoofbite]

Am I the only one that finds it funny that this thread is 12 pages (with my settings anyway) and the video doesn't show anything about Vick one way or the other? It just shows a stupid mayor pro tem.

There's a video on YouTube.

The guy basically shouts at Vick, who doesn't respond.

Then he continues to follow them until a security guy tells him to go away (in colorful language).

Then the guy claims that Vick stared him down as he was asking him about the picture and Vick just walked off. You don't see it in the video but he uses a still picture of Vick looking back at him and depicts it in text.

[Draegerman]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4137/5431146607_e601c33ffd.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/59340084@N04/5431146607/)

Hoof, I love and hate you at the same time. ;)

I spent all my attention on just pasting the URL code and it kept showing up as a white square with a red "x" in the center. It never occurred to me to use the BBC code.

Thank you, sir!

[tyke1doe]

Birds of a feather, flock together.

Off.

I find it interesting you answer none of my questions. Granted, you don't have to. But you seem to be so absolute in your position that Vick's condition is genetic, I thought you'd muster an effort to answer. I guess it was merely an attempt to sound authoritative.

[silverbear]

Whether you believe Vick is capable of change or not, he deserves the chance to change,

Sure he does... but I also have the right to never forgive him for his sick, sadistic actions...

IOW, he can be Mother Teresa from this point to the day of his death (yeah, that'll happen), and he'll still be a piece of crap in my book...

And if any of you Vick apologists have a problem with that, well, that's tough...

it is just as immoral in my mind to cover a person you don't even know with a blanket and eternal condemnation. You and i are not qualified to do that, ether morally or intillectually.

So, if a registered violent sex offender moved in next door to you, you'd have no problem with that??

On certain issues, I AM qualified to condemn for all eternity... if you molest children (not you personally), I hate you, and always will... and if you torture dogs for fun and profit, I hate you, and always will...

Frankly, I seriously doubt that you're as forgiving as you're trying to have us believe... if you are, and if you're Catholic, you might have a good shot at sainthood some day... meanwhile, I make no apologies for despising the subhuman piece of crap known as Michael Vick...

And just for the record, it's not just the dogfighting, though that was the last straw... it's a long record of antisocial behavior while down at Virginia Tech (he and his brother both raised serious hell down there), and it's running around giving women herpes while operating under the assumed name of Ron Mexico... do you approve of him doing that??

Vick was, in my mind, a piece of crap long before I found out about his little hobby... he has a long and very sordid history of antisocial behavior...

[silverbear]

Post note:

I desperately tried for over an hour to post a photo of Sunny once she was completely healthy on my original post.

It was an epic fail on my part to say the least. Hos tried to help me but nothing seemed to work.

Here's the link where the photo is stored:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/59340084@N04/5431146607/

The URL is: http://flic.kr/p/9gW3EK

If someone here could help figure this out, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

God arranged for you two to be together, 'cause that's how God works...

I really believe that... what a heart-warming story...

[silverbear]

There's a video on YouTube.

The guy basically shouts at Vick, who doesn't respond.

Then he continues to follow them until a security guy tells him to go away (in colorful language).

Then the guy claims that Vick stared him down as he was asking him about the picture and Vick just walked off. You don't see it in the video but he uses a still picture of Vick looking back at him and depicts it in text.

While I'm gleefully ripping into Vick in this thread, what Big Dick Hunter did was a self-aggrandizing publicity stunt, typical shock jock schtick... he's a jerk...

[tyke1doe]

So you suggest we change his past environmental influences? You think he's changed because he wears a suit now? Or perhaps the other suit wearing thugs he still hangs out with have helped this social re-awakening?

No. I suggest we change his present and future environmental influences. We remove him from situations that would lead him back to a world of dog fighting. We surround him with mentors and positive role models.


Right...and there is significant scientific evidence to suggest that if he had been raised in a different environment, he would likely have found a vice or anti-social behavior to participate in there, as well.

Citation please? Of the studies I've read, they aren't that detailed, nor can they be. You can't predict psychotic behavior. Usually studies done on psychotic behavior involve those who display psychotic disorders. You mean there are studies that identify psychotic behavior in children? I'm open if you have a link or citation.


Right again. Only you've failed to recognize that "bad" company doesn't exist solely in Vick's childhood environment.

You think this is a point? :confused: Bad company can be found throughout a person's life, not just in childhood. I don't even know what you mean by that statement or what relevance it has in contradicting anything I've said.


Professionals say so. Not mediots.....which is largely the case here. \

Citation of a professional who says Vick absolutely cannot change?


Of course we can teach people to choose good, and of course they can reform.....but they have to choose to do so, and often times that isn't even enough. I don't know the percentage of truly reformed psychopaths and sociopaths that come out of prison or professionally maintained mental health establishments....but I'm pretty sure its not a high number.

Even if it isn't a high number, it isn't an absolute 100 percent no one rehabilitates. It seems you're the one speaking in absolute terms, not I.



It's not an argument. It's a scientific fact.

I think you need to examine those studies a bit closer. I don't think they say what you think they do.

Whether they choose to follow those predispositions.....there's your argument. Hence "environment" coming into play.

I haven't given up on anyone. I simply hope they don't follow those biological tendencies. If they do, they pay the price. Usually that price isn't very high, and they continue to choose to give in.

Please tell me you aren't suggesting that Vick hasn't been given ample chance to grow into a productive individual....seriously?


What does that have to do with anything? You don't know the influences surrounding Vick any more than I do. You don't know whether he's been enabled all his life, encouraged to violent behavior based on his environment, etc.

Second, I think the point here is what is Vick doing now? You suggest he cannot change. I suggest it's not as simple as you might suggest. If he receives a steady diet of an encouraging environment, accountability and consequences, he possibly can suppress whatever "bad" tendencies he may have, and with respect to this discussion, killing dogs.



Uhh....no. They have rights because everyone is given the same slate under our Constitution. When they've chosen to relinquish those rights by undertaking in illegal and anti-social behaviors deemed too immoral to justify....I cease to see that slate as clean simply because they say they're sorry. Personally, I'm going to need more proof than some dweeb in Bristol, Conn. having a man crush on you, or some chump on a message board gargling your droppings because you run fast. Convince me, or don't convince me....I don't care. But you're a POS until you do, and I don't want anyone telling my children you're a role model.


Wow. That was quite a rambling response.

Let's get back to the meat of my point. If society felt Vick's crime was so heinous to not give him a second chance, he would be in jail for life. You don't know we have life sentences within our legal code, right?
We even have life sentences for pathological crimes like pedophilia and murder.

So arguing the Constitution as a response really isn't a response. It doesn't explain why we as a society would release Vick for this crime and jail for life others who commit other psychotic crimes.

As for what the media says and who you call a role model, I'll leave that alone as that's not the focus on my point.


This comes across as a very uninformed outside perception.

Anyone that's served in the military will tell you that it's a microcosm of our country. There are psychopaths, elitists, mama's boys, gays, nerds, jocks, gangsta wannabe's, and any other personality type you can imagine in those ranks.....this country's rules apply equally to them as well. While they may not be enforced as often or thoroughly due to various reasons, they should be held to those standards regardless. If you're asked to kill for god and country, and can't handle not being able to adjust afterward.....tough ****.

Whoosh! I guess my point went way over your head.



No, but they're a far better judge of his character than anyone on this forum. I'll take their word for it that Vick is an imbecilic gangster wannabe and that they'd bet he's simply "towing the line" to get out of trouble over the nonsensical ramblings of Vick's little posse on an internet forum.


Is this where I say I'll take the word of someone like Tony Dungy than the nonsensical ranting of an Internet poster who "claims" he has friends who know Vick. :laugh2:

That cuts both ways, tomson.



No. I never suggested it did, or that he would.

What it suggests, is that his alarmingly fast "new me" is probably a farce perpetuated by money, some good public relations advice, and a lot of misinformation dealt out to some very naive and simple minded fans.

So? Isn't the issue here whether he's a psychotic animal killer who can't change and wants to return to slaughter Fidos? :huh:

Can you guys stay on topic, or do you create red herrings to obscure the issue? Remember, you responded to my post.

That's an issue of whether or not he goes to jail or not.

And he won't go to jail again unless he fights dogs again.


If he's getting keys to cities, and being hailed as a role model to my children.....then **** yeah it matters to me whether or not he's the "new man" your mediot peers are so quick to idolize.


What are you talking about?

Again, let me refresh your memory.

1. I've already said it was a dumb thing to do giving Vick a key to the city.

2. Which media peers have praised Vick receiving a key to the city of Dallas?

3. What does getting a key to the city have to do with whether it's possible for Vick to rehabilitate?


Try harder.

Nah. I think I've chased enough of your rabbits. ;) :)

[tyke1doe]

And just to differentiate, there is a difference between psychotic behavior/disorders such as bipolar disorder and schizophrenia and psychotic behavior such as murder.

There has been much study done on the genetic link between the former. But we treat such disorders with medicine depending on the severity. I'm not familiar with any studies involving the discovery of a gene that indicates one is prone to murder or killing.

I sure would like to read such a study if one exists.

[burmafrd]

there are psychopaths and sociopaths. Vick seems more likely the latter.

[FootballFan1]

I can't really speak to Vick receiving a key to the city but I can speak to Hunter's actions post-ceremony when he tried to talk to Vick about the pit bull he adopted from his compound.

As noted here before, I adopted one of Vick's dogs after his incarceration and I can tell each of you unequivocally...this dog literally saved my life. In fact, you might say that we saved each other.

Most of you already know that I'm disabled due to injuries I sustained in the military and that after serving 23 years in the US Army Special Forces, my life went from running on jet fuel to a life barely getting by on a cup of oatmeal. And even though I was financially secure, I fell very far down into a deep hole of depression and addiction.

I was a wreck to say the least.

One thing I learned along the way about myself through this ordeal was that without purpose, life is meaningless. I'd lost mine and thought I could never get it back - and then that's when I found Sunny.

I first read about the charges levied against Michael Vick four years ago. As a dog lover, I was horrified of the mistreatment of these animals and the stories of abuse they endured while under his care, so I wanted to help.

I just didn't know how.

Luckily (through a lot of due diligence), I found a rescue shelter in Virginia that specialized in the rescue of these type of animals. I was able to contact the lady who ran it and told her that I'd like to donate money to help her cause. She was receptive to the idea but dug a little deeper in our conversation about my situation and asked if I'd be interested in adopting one of the rescued animals instead.

I was hesistant, because of my health and the fact that these particuliar type of dogs had such a bad reputation. When I voiced these concerns, she "educated" me about the pit bull terrier and how they were probably the most misunderstood breed of dog known to man. I learned how these dogs are fiercely loyal and devoted to their humans. That they will place their complete trust in you and will go so far as to even make the ultimate sacrifice - if that's what it takes to please you. In the wrong hands, evil persons will take advantage of these traits and subject them to such horrors.

So I agreed - and when she got my background info and verified that I was who I claimed to be, she personally drove 450 miles across the state line to bring Sunny to me.

When she arrived and got out of the car, I fell in love with her right on the spot.

Sunny immediately came to me when I knelt down in front of her in the driveway. I was quickly given a lick on the hand and two in the face. Tonya (the lady who brought her down) stated that she'd never seen Sunny react like this towards men. Her words were that Sunny can sense something good inside me. I told her that it was probably the doggie treats inside my coat pocket. ;)

She was broken like me. Unable to walk without an egregious limp caused by severe abuse and advanced stages of arthritis. She also had bite marks (scars) on her brow where it was obvious that she had been fighting. The most disturbing thing, to me anyway, was the missing hair around her snout. Apparently, some ******* used duct tape around her mouth to keep her from biting back.

Thus began a deep rage I felt for Michael Vick & Co.

Together, we learned to heal. I devoted all my time to her. My house was an empty nest (kids in far away universities from home) and wifey had her career to think about. I'm unable to drive so it just made sense to be with my new dog all the time.

I paid thousands of dollars to a vet to get her patched up. I even started physical therapy again just so I could build my strength up to carry her around while her hind legs healed. I even went to Recovery for myself to get off the painkillers that had taken controll of my life since 2003. When I returned, I was able to take her on walks in the neighborhood (short distances at first) to help her rehabilitate. Tears come to my eyes just thinking about the first time she was able to run full speed again while fetching her ball.

At night, when she slept...those were the most difficult. She would have nightmares, terrible nightmares. There was a gurgling, whimpering sound she would make (almost like a little child) and it would break my heart everytime to hear it. Tonya told me that they found her tied up to a tree in a wooded area away from Vick's compound. She was alone and isolated, malnourished and badly sunburned when they rescued her. It was no wonder she had such bad nightmares. I would hold her everytime it happened and reassured her that she was now safe and, most importantly, loved.

I made a schedule up for us everyday and followed it religiously. I taught her to stay with me while walking in the neighborhood without the use of a dog leash (it's very difficult for me to hold her due to my spinal injury). The only time that she doesn't listen is whenever a cursed squirrel happens our way along the route. It's not like she would hurt one if she caught it, as was the case when she caught a bunny rabbit. She just wanted to play with it and tag is her favorite game. This led to a new nickname for her - Sunny Bunny (yes, I know - very cliche' but it's true).

Now don't get me wrong, as timid as I've made her out to be, she is still a pit bull terrier. But the only time it came out of her was when a very large male German Shepherd broke out of his fence one day and came charging at us during one of our walks. Before I could shout "Sunny, NO!", she was on him like white on rice. She released quickly once she heard me and the shepherd high-tailed it back home but it did remind me of just how powerful this dog really is - and it's scary strong, trust me.

We're still healing and probably will continue to do so for the rest of our lives, but that's okay because we have each other in this journey and that's fine by me. Sunny saved my life by giving me purpose to live again - and I'd like to think I'd saved her, too. I even found a way to forgive Michael Vick because if it hadn't been for his heinous acts towards these beautiful animals, I would have never found my Sunny.

So like Richard Hunter, I, too, would have tried to encounter Vick after the key-to-the-city-ceremony (sans video camera) just to take a moment and thank him for Sunny. He would have had no idea what I was talking about...

And quite honestly, that's fine by me, too.

I have to write one more post.

You Draegerman are exactly the kind of person that I would be proud to call a role model for my children.

I own three dogs and they bring lots of fun and love into my world as well. And I have said numerous times, if you cannot love your dog, who can you love??? Loyal, loving, and fun. Man's best friend.

What you did is special, and you are one very special person. A role model for all of us actually. If only there were more of you in this "hard" world of ours. And I am glad to hear that your reward came back at you -- you found Sunny and filled part of your heart. But then, dogs do that.

[tyke1doe]

This would be how you would take what I said - thinking hasn't been your hallmark.

I have clearly said that what Vick did was horrible, and have also clearly said I have doubts about how much he can or will change.

You took that as saying everyone is wonderful and there are no bad people - your 6th grade English teacher would be cringing. The SAT people must have laughed hysterically at your reading comprehension answers.

Now, lets look at what you said as it relates to what I really wrote and not your laughable interperetation of it.

Of course people have a genetic makeup, and of course there are some negative tendencies that people are predisposed toward. But is that absolute and does it condemn a person for life? After all, it is widely held that alcoholism is genetic, yet people join AA and change to a sober lifestyle all the time. Yes, many have relapses, and some sink all the way backofr even further into their addiction, but some don't. As such, is it fair to condemn every alcoholic for life, or does it make sense to say they deserve a chance to change?

Murderers have started prison ministires, people who have killed others in drunk driving accidents have dedicated their lives to preventing others from making the same mistakes, habitual drug users have cleaned up and become volunteers in educating kids about the consequences of drug use ....... sure these aren't the everyday norm, but they do happen, and wouldn't it have been wrong to have condemend these people for life without allowing them the chance to turn things around?

Besides, how is it that you can presume to know Michael Vick's genetic makeup? Again, you know news reports. You have no knowledge of him personally - how he relates to friends, family and acquaintances, if he has done good things, performed acts of kindness, supported charities - you are just assumeing he does nothing of value based on a blind assesment based entirely on media accounts of a specific incident in his life.

That's crap - you don't know all there is to know about Vick, or his genetic makeup, Vick, and neither do I. The difference is you continue to cling to the ridiculous claim that you do.

BTW, good post.

[tyke1doe]

Oh, I missed your post Draegerman and got a chance to read it after a repost. Great story, man. Glad things are working out for you. And thanks for serving our country. :clap:

[Stautner]

Sure he does... but I also have the right to never forgive him for his sick, sadistic actions...

IOW, he can be Mother Teresa from this point to the day of his death (yeah, that'll happen), and he'll still be a piece of crap in my book...

And if any of you Vick apologists have a problem with that, well, that's tough...



So, if a registered violent sex offender moved in next door to you, you'd have no problem with that??

On certain issues, I AM qualified to condemn for all eternity... if you molest children (not you personally), I hate you, and always will... and if you torture dogs for fun and profit, I hate you, and always will...

Frankly, I seriously doubt that you're as forgiving as you're trying to have us believe... if you are, and if you're Catholic, you might have a good shot at sainthood some day... meanwhile, I make no apologies for despising the subhuman piece of crap known as Michael Vick...

And just for the record, it's not just the dogfighting, though that was the last straw... it's a long record of antisocial behavior while down at Virginia Tech (he and his brother both raised serious hell down there), and it's running around giving women herpes while operating under the assumed name of Ron Mexico... do you approve of him doing that??

Vick was, in my mind, a piece of crap long before I found out about his little hobby... he has a long and very sordid history of antisocial behavior...

Wow, reading comprehension must be at an alltime low in this country.

Where did i apolgize for Vick? I have said he committed horrible acts, and have further said I am skeptical about how much he can or will change.

The point is that you and I have no right to harass him or stalk him over it, and he deserves every chance to change.

If you prefer to hate the rest of your life, that's your choice. It's no skin off my nose if you live an unhappy life.

For me, I will continue to look at Vick through skeptical eyes, but I have no problem allowing him the opportunity to turn things around and I sincerely hope he is doing that.


As for a registered sex offender moving in next door, I have no idea what you are talking about. Your mind is way off track from anything I have said. I have not proclaimed Vick to be changed, and I certainly wouldn't assume that with a sex offender either.

My point is that I wouldn't seek out Vick, or a sex offender, to harass and taunt - I would leave them alone to hopefully get their **** straight. That doesn't mean I would entrust Vick with the care of my family dog or send my kids to play in the sex offender's yard - you are just pulling nonsense out of your backside with this tack.

[trickblue]

Dwaine Caraway, Deputy Mayor Pro Tem in more hot water over keys to the city of Dallas...

http://gordonkeith.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/dwaine_caraway_oswald.jpg

http://gordonkeith.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/dwaine_caraway_kaczynski.jpg

http://gordonkeith.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/dwaine_caraway_osama.jpg

http://gordonkeith.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/dwaine_caraway_sadam.jpg

[tyke1doe]

Trick, are the first two John Dillinger and the Unibomber (Ted Kyzinsky)?

[Stautner]

Trick, are the first two John Dillinger and the Unibomber (Ted Kyzinsky)?

The first one is Lee Harvey Oswald.

[trickblue]

Trick, are the first two John Dillinger and the Unibomber (Ted Kyzinsky)?

First one is Lee Harvey Oswald... second is Unibomber...

I didn't make them, but thought of making one with Wade Phillips head on there... and one with Quincy... :)

[Stautner]

First one is Lee Harvey Oswald... second is Unibomber...

I didn't make them, but thought of making one with Wade Phillips head on there... and one with Quincy... :)

It was a damn funny post - for old guys like me George Allen would have been another good one to plug in.

[tyke1doe]

First one is Lee Harvey Oswald... second is Unibomber...

I didn't make them, but thought of making one with Wade Phillips head on there... and one with Quincy... :)

Thanks. :)

[trickblue]

It was a damn funny post - for old guys like me George Allen would have been another good one to plug in.

Endless possibilities...

Buddy Ryan, Lance Rentzel, Bruce Coslet, Jackie Smith, Clint Longley...

[tyke1doe]

Endless possibilities...

Buddy Ryan, Lance Rentzel, Bruce Coslet, Jackie Smith, Clint Longley...

A ref dressed in gold and black (think Bennie Barnes phantom pass interference call in SB 13). :mad:

[Draegerman]

I have to write one more post.

You Draegerman are exactly the kind of person that I would be proud to call a role model for my children.

I own three dogs and they bring lots of fun and love into my world as well. And I have said numerous times, if you cannot love your dog, who can you love??? Loyal, loving, and fun. Man's best friend.

What you did is special, and you are one very special person. A role model for all of us actually. If only there were more of you in this "hard" world of ours. And I am glad to hear that your reward came back at you -- you found Sunny and filled part of your heart. But then, dogs do that.

That's very kind of you but it always makes me a little uncomfortable when my name and the words "role model" get thrown in the same sentence. Perhaps if you edit your post so it reads "Draegerman" and "male model" in the same sentence - I think it would be more acceptable. ;)

Regardless, your sentiment is heartfelt and I thank you. The same goes for the others here on this thread who commented about Sunny.

BTW, Sunny completely disagreed with everything you said about me. She thinks that she's the one who has been a role model for me. We argued about this for over an hour until I held a out a piece of cheese in my hand and said:

"Who's the role model now, *****?" :D

[Draegerman]

Endless possibilities...

Buddy Ryan, Lance Rentzel, Bruce Coslet, Jackie Smith, Clint Longley...

It would only work if it was Staubach superimposed on the mayor handing Clint the key.


:laugh2:

[Stautner]

Endless possibilities...

Buddy Ryan, Lance Rentzel, Bruce Coslet, Jackie Smith, Clint Longley...

There must be something I don't recall about Bruce Coslet - help me out on that one. Albert Haynsworth, Joe Theisman, the kicker for the Colts in 71' (can't recall off the top of my head).

[BlueStar3398]

I can't really speak to Vick receiving a key to the city but I can speak to Hunter's actions post-ceremony when he tried to talk to Vick about the pit bull he adopted from his compound.

As noted here before, I adopted one of Vick's dogs after his incarceration and I can tell each of you unequivocally...this dog literally saved my life. In fact, you might say that we saved each other.


Thanks for your service to our country! So glad that you could give Sunny a good home!

Here is another owner of one of Vick's dogs addressing the city of Dallas after Vick was given the key to the city:
http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/02/man-who-adopted-michael-vicks.html

[FootballFan1]

That's very kind of you but it always makes me a little uncomfortable when my name and the words "role model" get thrown in the same sentence. Perhaps if you edit your post so it reads "Draegerman" and "male model" in the same sentence - I think it would be more acceptable. ;)

Regardless, your sentiment is heartfelt and I thank you. The same goes for the others here on this thread who commented about Sunny.

BTW, Sunny completely disagreed with everything you said about me. She thinks that she's the one who has been a role model for me. We argued about this for over an hour until I held a out a piece of cheese in my hand and said:

"Who's the role model now, *****?" :D

So, you have a sense of humor as well. I was kind of hoping that your words were the last in this thread. It would be appropriate, but the posting continues, so I will go ahead and write something.

The internet is supposed to be "anonymous" and it is to some degree. But you always know what someone is like by their words. A clear picture comes through. Can they put a sentence together, and what are they saying???

And your words came through strong and clear. An intelligent person, a man with a heart. A person that served his country, and was looking to find himself after that. And then a dog named Sunny. Injured, as you. And I actually can understand that, and can relate.

One thing good is I can choose for myself who can be a role model. And you fit the bill. I don't know anything about "male" "model", only your wife knows for sure ------. But she and Sunny are lucky to have you.

But trust me, you hit a cord with not just me, but with others as well. I asked my wife to read your post, and she told me that she read an article about what you are speaking. And it hit home for both of us --

Sorry this is so corny, but like you, I am not embarrassed to say that I feel and care. Actually I wear that label proudly. We only get one life, might as well make the best of it.

Here's to you ---

[ChldsPlay]

There's a video on YouTube.

The guy basically shouts at Vick, who doesn't respond.

Then he continues to follow them until a security guy tells him to go away (in colorful language).

Then the guy claims that Vick stared him down as he was asking him about the picture and Vick just walked off. You don't see it in the video but he uses a still picture of Vick looking back at him and depicts it in text.

Exactly...nothing but a video that shows a stupid mayor pro tem.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Same old Vick means that he is running an illegal dogfighing ring. Expecting him to suddenly care about dogs is a pointless waste of time.

[silverbear]

Wow, reading comprehension must be at an alltime low in this country.

It would seem that's the case, inasmuch as you missed my point... you see, mine was a generic aside aimed at ALL the people who are saying we should cut poor widdwe Mike some slack, give him a chance... which you might have grasped if you consider the semantic meaning of "all you Vick apologists"... if I had intended that remark to be aimed at you directly, I wouldn't have said "all you"...

But yeah, as far as I'm concerned, anybody who's trying to argue that Michael Vick deserves redemption IS a Vick apologist, whether he means to be or not...

If you prefer to hate the rest of your life, that's your choice. It's no skin off my nose if you live an unhappy life.

My, what interesting logic-- because I choose to hold Ookie Mexico in contempt for what he did to those dogs, that means I live an unhappy life...

It would be entertaining if you could explain how the latter follows from the former...

As for a registered sex offender moving in next door, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Well, you seemed to be asserting that we should forgive Vick, give him a chance... and you seemed to be asserting that those of us who don't care to do that are somehow morally deficient...

So I was just trying to establish that there WERE limits to your "forgive and forget" sanctity... that there were some people that you would never care to forgive, never care to give a second chance, at least not if doing so directly impacted on your day to day life...

The logic being that if there WERE types of sociopaths that you don't advocate should receive such benign forgiveness, then you're not really morally superior to those you're criticizing here... the only difference between us and you would be where we set the limits...

But y'know, I suspect you knew that (or you're not as smart as you're trying to pass yourself off as being)... you were just willfully trying to miss the point, so as to avoid having to answer the question...

So I ask again-- would your holier than thou sense of compassion remain undisturbed if you found out a violent sex offender of the pedophilic nature moved into your neighborhood?? Of course, it's possible you don't have kids, in which case that might not disturb you... but if you do, then I can't imagine that you'd offer that violent sex offender of the pedophilic nature a hearty welcome...

My point is that I wouldn't seek out Vick, or a sex offender, to harass and taunt

LOL-- exactly who in here is "harassing" poor widdwe Mikey?? All we're doing is expressing our contempt for him, which he has brought on himself with his actions... unless he reads this board, which I highly doubt, then our opinions don't affect him at all, at all...

Perhaps your father did not indoctrinate you in the belief that a man's actions have consequences, the way mine did... because I was raised that way, in my opinion there's nothing happening to Vick that he didn't bring on himself... in fact, he got off pretty easy for what he did, again in my opinion...


That doesn't mean I would entrust Vick with the care of my family dog or send my kids to play in the sex offender's yard - you are just pulling nonsense out of your backside with this tack.

Actually, I was making a point that you apparently lacked the mental acuity to grasp... because I'm a kind and helpful kind of bear, I'll try to explain that point once again, using little words that you might be able to understand:

Your stated thesis was (or surely seemed to be) that everybody deserves a second chance, a shot at redemption... while a noble premise, I found it highly unlikely that you believe that to be true for EVERYBODY... so I used the example of a convicted violent pedophilic sex offender moving into your neighborhood...

Yeah, it's an extreme example, but if you are honest enough to admit that you wouldn't be at all comfortable with that happening (as virtually everybody decent would be), then it follows that your claim that "everybody" deserves a second chance is not completely true...

Which would leave us merely with a difference of opinion about where the line should be drawn... I draw it at a place where a Michael Vick, a convicted sadistic torturer and killer of dogs, does not fall within my comfort zone... you apparently draw the line elsewhere... as far as I'm concerned, as I've often stated, Michael Vick is a piece of crap... and since I own a dog, I can assure you that if he ever showed up knocking on my door, he'd be greeted by the business end of a shotgun, and told to get the hell off of my property...

You are, of course, free to welcome him onto your property, if you're serious with this "redemption" bullcrap... in the meantime, brush up on that reading comprehension, and see if you can do a better job of rebuttal next time...

[Stautner]

It would seem that's the case, inasmuch as you missed my point... you see, mine was a generic aside aimed at ALL the people who are saying we should cut poor widdwe Mike some slack, give him a chance... which you might have grasped if you consider the semantic meaning of "all you Vick apologists"... if I had intended that remark to be aimed at you directly, I wouldn't have said "all you"...

But yeah, as far as I'm concerned, anybody who's trying to argue that Michael Vick deserves redemption IS a Vick apologist, whether he means to be or not...



My, what interesting logic-- because I choose to hold Ookie Mexico in contempt for what he did to those dogs, that means I live an unhappy life...

It would be entertaining if you could explain how the latter follows from the former...



Well, you seemed to be asserting that we should forgive Vick, give him a chance... and you seemed to be asserting that those of us who don't care to do that are somehow morally deficient...

So I was just trying to establish that there WERE limits to your "forgive and forget" sanctity... that there were some people that you would never care to forgive, never care to give a second chance, at least not if doing so directly impacted on your day to day life...

The logic being that if there WERE types of sociopaths that you don't advocate should receive such benign forgiveness, then you're not really morally superior to those you're criticizing here... the only difference between us and you would be where we set the limits...

But y'know, I suspect you knew that (or you're not as smart as you're trying to pass yourself off as being)... you were just willfully trying to miss the point, so as to avoid having to answer the question...

So I ask again-- would your holier than thou sense of compassion remain undisturbed if you found out a violent sex offender of the pedophilic nature moved into your neighborhood?? Of course, it's possible you don't have kids, in which case that might not disturb you... but if you do, then I can't imagine that you'd offer that violent sex offender of the pedophilic nature a hearty welcome...



LOL-- exactly who in here is "harassing" poor widdwe Mikey?? All we're doing is expressing our contempt for him, which he has brought on himself with his actions... unless he reads this board, which I highly doubt, then our opinions don't affect him at all, at all...

Perhaps your father did not indoctrinate you in the belief that a man's actions have consequences, the way mine did... because I was raised that way, in my opinion there's nothing happening to Vick that he didn't bring on himself... in fact, he got off pretty easy for what he did, again in my opinion...




Actually, I was making a point that you apparently lacked the mental acuity to grasp... because I'm a kind and helpful kind of bear, I'll try to explain that point once again, using little words that you might be able to understand:

Your stated thesis was (or surely seemed to be) that everybody deserves a second chance, a shot at redemption... while a noble premise, I found it highly unlikely that you believe that to be true for EVERYBODY... so I used the example of a convicted violent pedophilic sex offender moving into your neighborhood...

Yeah, it's an extreme example, but if you are honest enough to admit that you wouldn't be at all comfortable with that happening (as virtually everybody decent would be), then it follows that your claim that "everybody" deserves a second chance is not completely true...

Which would leave us merely with a difference of opinion about where the line should be drawn... I draw it at a place where a Michael Vick, a convicted sadistic torturer and killer of dogs, does not fall within my comfort zone... you apparently draw the line elsewhere... as far as I'm concerned, as I've often stated, Michael Vick is a piece of crap... and since I own a dog, I can assure you that if he ever showed up knocking on my door, he'd be greeted by the business end of a shotgun, and told to get the hell off of my property...

You are, of course, free to welcome him onto your property, if you're serious with this "redemption" bullcrap... in the meantime, brush up on that reading comprehension, and see if you can do a better job of rebuttal next time...

So much BS here ....

The first thing is that you quoted me directly, so it's pretty laughable to act as if your direct response to my direct quote wasn't directed at me, regardless of you encompassing others inot it by say "all you apologists.

Second, you sure like to make up what I am saying - fabricate a bunch of BS to make an argument without regard to whether it actually represents anything I say. That's the typical MO for guys like you.

I never said Vick deserves redemption, I have merely said he deserves the right to try and get his life together without be taunted by guys like the idiot that was the subject of this thread, and I have said that he can't be eternally condemned because we cannot claim to know how the future will play out.

I never said I have forgiven Vick, I only said I am not pinning eternal condemnation on him. Not the same thing, but that's a little detail you can't be bothered with.

You're posts are filled with these kinds of things? Can't make an argument based on what someone says, just stretch, exaggerate or flat out fabricate what he says to create an argument.