Robert Quinn (Dware 2.0)

[Trace1015]

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[egn22]

I keep hearing about Quinn, but what do we do with Spencer if we draft him?
Or i guess the better question is, what is Spencer worth in a trade if we get Quinn?

[TheCount]

lol, goodness gracious.

[SDogo]

I repeat, WILL NOT be 21 till May 18th of this year.

His body is still developing. Frame is built to add strength and weight.

Who ever gets him needs to be patient. He is probably going to aggrivate the heck out af any fan base who is expecting him to come in and get double digit sacks his first 2 years in the league but when he has had two seasons in a NFL weight program and the expierence under his belt and is still only 23...........watch out.

[dwmyers]

This guy might be the Real Deal, but what is preventing him from being Bobby Carpenter II? BC was a real fetish item on this board the year we drafted him, even though most of his proponents agreed we were reaching for him in the first place.

[burmafrd]

No most of the draft experts called Carpenter the safest pick we could have made. How quickly some forget. Turned out not to be true. There is no such thing as an absolute sure pick.

[dwmyers]

No most of the draft experts called Carpenter the safest pick we could have made. How quickly some forget. Turned out not to be true. There is no such thing as an absolute sure pick.

Burmafrd, my recollection is that Carpenter was tagged as a late first rounder to early 2nd. A reach, in other words. Maybe not a huge reach, but a reach nonetheless. It's true, though, as you say, that people also regarded Carpenter as a safe choice. But he wasn't felt to have much upside, which led to the late first-early second assessment.

[unionjack8]

if we take him at 9 i'd be more trhan happy. Instantly he's a better pass rusher than Spencer. Spencer has had 3 years now. Not taken his game to the next level.

Quinn will be a beast in this league, imo he's a way better pass rusher than Von Miller already

[JPM]

Burmafrd, my recollection is that Carpenter was tagged as a late first rounder to early 2nd. A reach, in other words. Maybe not a huge reach, but a reach nonetheless. It's true, though, as you say, that people also regarded Carpenter as a safe choice. But he wasn't felt to have much upside, which led to the late first-early second assessment.
He went pretty much where he was supposed to go.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/TSX/2006_OLB

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2006/draft/tracker/index_exclude.html

[dwmyers]

He went pretty much where he was supposed to go.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/TSX/2006_OLB

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2006/draft/tracker/index_exclude.html

You sure? One rating, on one date, from a not terribly well respected ratings service, represents the whole of the range of ratings of Bobby at the time?

Understand, the whole set of arguments dating from 2006 are on this board, including my own comments about Bobby Carpenter from that date. Are you, like NextGenBoys, going to accuse me of not knowing what I was saying at the time?

David.

[Aven8]

I repeat, WILL NOT be 21 till May 18th of this year.

His body is still developing. Frame is built to add strength and weight.

Who ever gets him needs to be patient. He is probably going to aggrivate the heck out af any fan base who is expecting him to come in and get double digit sacks his first 2 years in the league but when he has had two seasons in a NFL weight program and the expierence under his belt and is still only 23...........watch out.

Grow into his frame? This kid looks like he built like a you know what brick house!

His lean around the corner looks a lot like Dware.

He also reminds me of a bigger version of Von Miller.

For those worried about what to do with Spencer, you can never have enough pass rushers!!!!

[burmafrd]

well your recollections were wrong. He went at about where Goose and others had him at. He was called the safest pick we could make at that point.
Don't get your panties in a wad. It was 5 years ago.

[dwmyers]

well your recollections were wrong. He went at about where Goose and others had him at. He was called the safest pick we could make at that point.
Don't get your panties in a wad. It was 5 years ago.

Tell you what, I'll concede the point that many on the board felt he was drafted at value. That is probably true. I do believe, though, that I'm arguing pretty much what I was in 2006, that he was a reach, and if I actually cared enough to check, I suspect I could show down to the post where I said that.

AJ Hawk was the only blue chip LB that year. A lot of us wanted Kamerion Wimbley, but he got picked at #13. The real argument, iirc, was between Carpenter and Manny Lawson, and I suspect the latter is still playing, but not very well. All the LBs in that year after Hawk seem to be disappointments.

We drafted Q in part because he resembled Michael Vick, and the magic of him being drafted dragged a mediocre player up higher than he should have been rightfully considered. I'm a little worried that we're getting so caught up in our needs that we're overvaluing certain kinds of positions.

The collective obsession with nose tackles and right tackles concerns me a little. Neither position is as important as people make them out to be.

Yes, I'm a curmudgeon by the standards of this board. Swimming upstream here seems in my nature :cool:

David.

[burmafrd]

AJ Hawk has not exactly set the world on fire. At the time when we started finding out that Carp was not much, it was said that playing next to AJ inflated Carp. Well looking at Hawk it could be said that went both ways.

[Randy White]

I repeat, WILL NOT be 21 till May 18th of this year.

His body is still developing. Frame is built to add strength and weight.

Who ever gets him needs to be patient. He is probably going to aggrivate the heck out af any fan base who is expecting him to come in and get double digit sacks his first 2 years in the league but when he has had two seasons in a NFL weight program and the expierence under his belt and is still only 23...........watch out.


Only idiots would expect double digit sacks from players in their rookie season. One thing is getting it because the guy is a freak and another one is " expecting it "..

I "man"love Robert Quinn, but the Spencer point is very valid and should be taken into consideration. I just hate to see 2 or 3 years down the line Quinn becoming a dominant force for somebody else when we know that Spencer will never be that type of player. I'm not saying Spencer sucks, but it's fairly common knowlege that he'll never be one of the top guys at his position. Very solid, perhaps, but not " best of the best ".

[Randy White]

This guy might be the Real Deal, but what is preventing him from being Bobby Carpenter II? BC was a real fetish item on this board the year we drafted him, even though most of his proponents agreed we were reaching for him in the first place.

Nothing prevents it. Just like nothing " could " prevent Patrick Peterson from becoming the next Bruce Pickens, or Da'Quan Bowers from becoming the next Courtney Brown, or Nick Fairley from becoming the next Dan Wilkerson. All experts can do is use the same barometers that are available, their instincts and experience, and pray that they work.

And using those same measuring sticks, Bobby Carpenter does not, never has, nor ever would, become even close to be in the same league as Robert Quinn. Bringing up Carpenter's name in the same sentence as Quinn that does not include " sucks compared to " is disrespectful even to average intelligence.

[dwmyers]

Only idiots would expect double digit sacks from players in their rookie season. One thing is getting it because the guy is a freak and another one is " expecting it "..

I "man"love Robert Quinn, but the Spencer point is very valid and should be taken into consideration. I just hate to see 2 or 3 years down the line Quinn becoming a dominant force for somebody else when we know that Spencer will never be that type of player. I'm not saying Spencer sucks, but it's fairly common knowlege that he'll never be one of the top guys at his position. Very solid, perhaps, but not " best of the best ".

You know, Jim Jeffcoat was never Harvey Martin, but Jim plus Tony Casillas plus a few other rotation guys gave us a pretty effective front. I've been impressed at times at what Victor Butler has done; OLB and ILB all could benefit from a 2-3 deep rotation.

Do you think this team would have the patience to get a guy who could end up great, even if he took a couple years to develop? If Dallas were a baseball team, could Jerry ever develop a Sandy Koufax?

[vaturkey]

Nothing prevents it. Just like nothing " could " prevent Patrick Peterson from becoming the next Bruce Pickens, or Da'Quan Bowers from becoming the next Courtney Brown, or Nick Fairley from becoming the next Dan Wilkerson. All experts can do is use the same barometers that are available, their instincts and experience, and pray that they work.

And using those same measuring sticks, Bobby Carpenter does not, never has, nor ever would, become even close to be in the same league as Robert Quinn. Bringing up Carpenter's name in the same sentence as Quinn that does not include " sucks compared to " is disrespectful even to average intelligence.

Carpenter was a decent athlete with good speed and size. He however had no physical strength and couldn't tackle a damp tissues. Quinn has more speed, more strength and more quickness. He isn't in the same zip code as Bobbie was.

[ThreeSportStar80]

D-Ware and Quinn getting after the QB would spell major problems for the rest of the QBs in the NFL.

[Randy White]

You know, Jim Jeffcoat was never Harvey Martin, but Jim plus Tony Casillas plus a few other rotation guys gave us a pretty effective front. I've been impressed at times at what Victor Butler has done; OLB and ILB all could benefit from a 2-3 deep rotation.

Do you think this team would have the patience to get a guy who could end up great, even if he took a couple years to develop? If Dallas were a baseball team, could Jerry ever develop a Sandy Koufax?

Answer: Miles Austin, Tony Romo, Jay Rattlif.

[JPM]

You sure? One rating, on one date, from a not terribly well respected ratings service, represents the whole of the range of ratings of Bobby at the time?

Understand, the whole set of arguments dating from 2006 are on this board, including my own comments about Bobby Carpenter from that date. Are you, like NextGenBoys, going to accuse me of not knowing what I was saying at the time?

David.
He wasn't a reach. You don't like CBS and SI saying he was a 1st round pick then you find a "respected" site that had him as a low 1st 2nd round pick.

[ThreeSportStar80]

Why are so many people worried about what they will do with Spencer... The Giants continue to draft dominant pass rushers to kill Romo and it's working out fine. You can never have too many play-makers at OLBer in the 3-4 scheme.

[dwmyers]

He wasn't a reach. You don't like CBS and SI saying he was a 1st round pick then you find a "respected" site that had him as a low 1st 2nd round pick.

Does Cowboys Zone count as a respected site? How about the "Carpenter has been injured" thread to begin?

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41098

And here are my own musings about Carpenter's value

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46651

To quote (posted 1/14/2006):

At linebacker, all the talk about Bobby Carpenter is interesting, but he's exactly the guy who is so hard to pin down to a draft value. The range of his valuation seems to be about one whole round currently, high around 25 or so and low around 50is. His size and speed, though, make him a real prospect for a team like ours, running a 3-4.

Decide what you want about my accuracy as an analyst, but I'm saying the same things now as I was then. And I suspect I wasn't the only one. Here is a thread started by Inman Roshi:

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46603

In it he says:

Yep, I wouldn't be unhappy with Carpenter by any means. Especially if you can get him in Round 2.

Note the comment in the thread about InmanRoshi liking him better in the second round? If Carpenter was universally considered a shoo in for a first rounder, why even make such a statement?

In the same thread, we also see this comment, from ddh33

I think Carpenter has a good chance to fall into the second. Those nagging injury problems are going to scare some teams.

And by the way, you contribute this comment to this second thread as well..

Carpenter's play really reminds me of Vrabel. Which is a very good thing,

So not only were there threads at the time questioning Carpenter's value, you were contributing to them. How about them apples, JPM?

David.

[burmafrd]

Does it matter what we were saying? No. What mattered was what the vast majority of scouts and company were saying and they said that Carp was due to go right about where we picked him. Goose is usually very well informed by his contacts on what the general consensus of the teams think- and Carp pretty much went exactly where Goose said he would go, as far as I remembered. Remember how many people here were SURE that Merriman was much better than DWare?

[fortdick]

Remember, he was ineligible last year. I don't think you have to be a genius to figure out you don't take gifts and cash from agents while playing college ball. He didn't care. That kind of decision making and "me first" attitude tells me to stay away.

When are we going to start taking character into account?

[burmafrd]

As crazy as the NCAA is, this sort of thing might not be all that. I would want to know a lot more about how it all happened and what his circumstances were. And that is where the background check is SO important. Was this a one off, a stupid thing or did he badly need the money. OR is it an indication of a real charactor flaw.

[dwmyers]

Does it matter what we were saying? No.

I respectfully disagree. On this board, we largely parrot the opinions we see; our comments from those days are a reflection of the times. If you deny our history on this board, you may as well say this board is meaningless and our actions, collectively, were then and are now useless.

It's a stupid argument, mind you, to those of us who recall and care about our pasts. I'm a LOT more interested in your opinion from January 2006 than, say, what CBS Sports thought. I've never been a fan of Rob Rang. I'm a much bigger fan of people like Hostile, InmanRoshi, Adam JT13, Jobberone, Silver Bear and surprising as it may seem, guys like JPM and burmafrd, even when they're living breathing toothaches of men.

CBS Sports and SI be damned. You are my past, burmafrd, whether you like it or not.

David.

[burmafrd]

Kiper,goose and a couple others are reliable. frankly they are better then anyone on this board.

[dwmyers]

Kiper,goose and a couple others are reliable. frankly they are better then anyone on this board.

Irrelevant to what I've said previously; Kiper isn't good at figuring out where people will be drafted and you know that. He churns his top 25 routinely, because he sells pithy verbal analyses of players. His valuations are all over the board.

Goose, by contrast, achieves results by being a reporter as opposed to an analyst. And as this board is well aware, when Goose tries to analyze anything, he sucks. Goose wouldn't have been saying anything in 1/2006. He would have waited until a week or so before the draft.

The foibles of individual analysts are why I pay more attention to smart people on this board and the collected integrated opinions their ideas represent. There are some really smart people here, though these days, they talk less and less -- or perhaps their analysis is becoming harder to find.

David.

[dwmyers]

Answer: Miles Austin, Tony Romo, Jay Rattlif.

That's a good sign, but they were all free agents or late draft picks, and therefore low risk gambles. JJ tends to free agency on the big things. Sandy Koufax was a bonus baby in his day, the equivalent of betting on a high risk 1st rounder back in the 1950s.

Is he going to take big risks with first rounders? Or is he merely going to rue the Randy Mosses he passes up on?

David.

[JPM]

So not only were there threads at the time questioning Carpenter's value, you were contributing to them. How about them apples, JPM?

David.
Apples ? What's with the attitude ? I asked for sites your found respectable, my opinion means squat when it comes to who would be a good draft pick. You are right, he was a huge reach.

Take care, goodbye.

[CATCH17]

Carpenter was just a classic bust.

We didn't reach at all for him. On paper he looked like Clay Matthews.


And be honest with yourselves. Had we drafted Matthews a lot of you would be saying we drafted Bobby Carp 2.

[TheCount]

Carpenter was just a classic bust.

We didn't reach at all for him. On paper he looked like Clay Matthews.


Other than the hair and race, those two have almost nothing in common really.

I do agree though that he was a classic bust, based on what he did in college, he was probably worthy of a 1st round selection. We just happen to be the ones that got suckered.

[CATCH17]

Other than the hair and race, those two have almost nothing in common really.

I do agree though that he was a classic bust, based on what he did in college, he was probably worthy of a 1st round selection. We just happen to be the ones that got suckered.

Carpenter was thought as a high motor player who was versatile and had family that played in the league.

[theogt]

Other than the hair and race, those two have almost nothing in common really.

I do agree though that he was a classic bust, based on what he did in college, he was probably worthy of a 1st round selection. We just happen to be the ones that got suckered.Hair, color, same size, speed, big college, played linebacker.

Nothing alike as prospects. Nah, the only difference is that Carpenter should have used roids too.

[TheCount]

Carpenter was thought as a high motor player who was versatile and had family that played in the league.

Perhaps but I don't remember many people describing Clay much in general.

After people finished talking about Sanchez, Rey and Cushing, they barely had any superlatives left for Matthews.

Hair, color, same size, speed, big college, played linebacker.

Nothing alike as prospects. Nah, the only difference is that Carpenter should have used roids too.

My point was that other than physically, they had nothing in common as prospects and I'll stand by that.

The way both players got to where they are/were couldn't be more different and their play styles were, even in college, completely different.

[Biggems]

sign Thomas Howard to start opposite Ware

Draft Quinn as a situational pass rusher opposite Ware

put Spencer in the weight room and dining room and have him bulk up to get around 290-295, and have him move to DE...if not possible, then trade him.

[Dash28]

sign Thomas Howard to start opposite Ware

Draft Quinn as a situational pass rusher opposite Ware

put Spencer in the weight room and dining room and have him bulk up to get around 290-295, and have him move to DE...if not possible, then trade him.
Thomas Howard isn't a 3-4 OLB and Spencer will not play 3-4 end.

[Biggems]

Thomas Howard isn't a 3-4 OLB and Spencer will not play 3-4 end.


why cant Howard play as a 3-4 LB?