Saints resign DE Tony Bryant to 1.5 mil 2 year

[DWAREZ]

Seems to indicate either way they are moving Howard, with two young draft choices manning the position and resigning Tony Bryant to a 1.5 million two year contract. Looks like DH will be going somewhere pretty soon...thats simply way too much money at one position.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2017013

[big dog cowboy]

Maybe the asking price for Howard just came down a little. :D

[Cajuncowboy]

Maybe the asking price for Howard just came down a little. :D

Yeah. I'd do a second rounder now.



Next year. :shades:

[Eddie]

I'd trade Dexter Coakley and a 4th rounder for Howard!

[Wood]

I would give them Dat and a 4th rounder. Another question....if Howard is so good...why is Dallas only interested? things that make you go hmmm.

[Mike 1967]

I would give them Dat and a 4th rounder. Another question....if Howard is so good...why is Dallas only interested? things that make you go hmmm.

The Skins and Seahawks were interested...but they could not afford him.

[HeHateMe]

I'd trade Dexter Coakley and a 4th rounder for Howard!

Youre kidding right?

[Hostile]

I'd trade Dexter Coakley and a 4th rounder for Howard!Hard to do since Dexter is now with the Rams.

[jbsg02]

I'd trade a 2nd rounder straight up. How many 2nd round picks can get you 11 sacks a year, the odds aren't good

[TwentyOne]

Hard to do since Dexter is now with the Rams.

but a good deal for dallas anyway.... :grin:

[KDWilliams85]

A straight swap is in order. Dat for Howard is fair considering that they are around the same age and skill level at their position.

[5mics]

Seems to indicate either way they are moving Howard, with two young draft choices manning the position and resigning Tony Bryant to a 1.5 million two year contract. Looks like DH will be going somewhere pretty soon...thats simply way too much money at one position.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2017013
Good news indeed! Howard trade coming closer to reality.....

[CoCo1]

Seems to indicate either way they are moving Howard, with two young draft choices manning the position and resigning Tony Bryant to a 1.5 million two year contract. Looks like DH will be going somewhere pretty soon...thats simply way too much money at one position.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2017013

I hardly think that $750k per year for two years is a significant new development.

BTW - It would seem to me that if we end up with Howard that perhaps it will be us having too many $$ invested in one position. Ellis, Glover, Ferguson and Howard together pull down quite a chunk of change I imagine.

Though we definitely need a RDE who can bring some pressure I am pretty hesitant about that being Howard. The age, loss of a significant pick and the cap $$ collectively concern me. I think the current make-up of our D-line begs for a young player to round it out. Merriman? Ware? James?

My feet are getting cold on Howard.

[Nors]

I would give them Dat and a 4th rounder. Another question....if Howard is so good...why is Dallas only interested? things that make you go hmmm.

Also, why are Saints drafting Charles Grant and Will Smith? OTHER THAN PEERLESS PRICE i DON'T REMEMBER A FRANCHISE PLAYER ACTUALLY GETTING TRADED? aND fALCONS WERE SCREWED IN THAT TRADE.

Haslett was a 3-4 guy at Pittsburgh. After finishing dead *** last in the NFL using a 4-3. He'd make the move. Play Howard at DE and kick Smith to OLB. I know they used it some last year in TC.

[MichaelWinicki]

Also, why are Saints drafting Charles Grant and Will Smith? OTHER THAN PEERLESS PRICE i DON'T REMEMBER A FRANCHISE PLAYER ACTUALLY GETTING TRADED? aND fALCONS WERE SCREWED IN THAT TRADE.

Haslett was a 3-4 guy at Pittsburgh. After finishing dead *** last in the NFL using a 4-3. He'd make the move. Play Howard at DE and kick Smith to OLB. I know they used it some last year in TC.


Two words...

"Joey Galloway"

[St. Richard]

Maybe the asking price for Howard just came down a little. :D

The re-signing of Bryant solidifies the Saints' depth at defensive end and I believe it does make the trade of Howard easier for the Saints to manage. But I don't see how the Saints' asking price would be dropped because they re-signed a depth player. The Saints have the cap room to keep him if they desired or they could trade him if the right deal came along. But the right deal wouldn't be to take less than what they feel is fair for a pass-rushing, run-stopping, high character guy who really doesn't want to leave. If it weren't for the fact that they drafted Will Smith in 2004 as the best player available, the Saints wouldn't have the surplus they have at DE and they wouldn't consider trading him. Yes, clearing his cap figure would help them re-sign other players, but isn't putting the best team on the field the main objective? If I were the Saints GM, I'd find a way to keep him and make my defensive coordinator figure out how to get Grant, Howard and Smith on the field at the same time (as they did on passing downs last season).

Now why again would the Saints' asking price for Howard go down? :D

[MichaelWinicki]

The re-signing of Bryant solidifies the Saints' depth at defensive end and I believe it does make the trade of Howard easier for the Saints to manage. But I don't see how the Saints' asking price would be dropped because they re-signed a depth player. The Saints have the cap room to keep him if they desired or they could trade him if the right deal came along. But the right deal wouldn't be to take less than what they feel is fair for a pass-rushing, run-stopping, high character guy who really doesn't want to leave. If it weren't for the fact that they drafted Will Smith in 2004 as the best player available, the Saints wouldn't have the surplus they have at DE and they wouldn't consider trading him. Yes, clearing his cap figure would help them re-sign other players, but isn't putting the best team on the field the main objective. If I were the Saints GM, I'd find a way to keep him and make my defensive coordinator figure out how to get Grant, Howard and Smith on the field at the same time (as they did on passing downs last season).

Now why again would the Saints' asking price for Howard go down?

Well said. It's not like the Saints are boxed into a corner from a negotiating standpoint. And neither are the Cowboys and that's why the trade hasn't taken place. There is no over-riding leverage for either club.

[Nors]

Two words...

"Joey Galloway"

I said trade. No one but Jerry is crazy enought o sign Howard to an offer sheet for two #1's.....

Thank God Parcells is making the football calls.
And why Howard is still a Saint.

Here's the info an Saints backup resigned.
11 tackles, 2 sacks past 2 years as a Saint. Solid move by Saints.

# 92 Tony Bryant
Position: DE
Height: 6-6
Weight: 282
Born: 09/03/1976
College: Florida State
NFL Experience: 6

Career Stats | Game Logs: 01 02 03 04 | Situational Stats | Team Roster



DEFENSIVE STATS

Year Team G Total Tckl Ast Sacks Int Yds Avg Lg TD Pass Def
1999 Oakland Raiders 10 16 13.0 3 4.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 0
2000 Oakland Raiders 16 36 23.0 13 5.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 2
2001 Oakland Raiders 16 41 28.0 13 5 0 0 0.0 0 0 1
2002 Oakland Raiders 8 32 24.0 8 2.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 2
2003 New Orleans Saints 0 0 0.0 0 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 0
2004 New Orleans Saints 16 11 7.0 4 2 0 0 0.0 0 0 0
TOTAL 66 136 95.0 41 19.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 5

[HipHop]

Nors....so are you telling us that we are not going to trade for Howard?

[Eskimo]

Now why again would the Saints' asking price for Howard go down? :D

He is overpaid at almost $8M/yr.

DH may not even be the starter at DE should he stay with the team - they have Will Smith who had a great rookie campaign and Charles Grant who is really coming into his own as a speed rusher.

They would like to free up cap space to use at other spots on the team.

They cannot re-sign him to a longer more cap-friendly deal even if they wanted to until July.

Next year they will get nothing for him because he will cost too much to frachise - $9.4M. If they didn't get much this year for him they will only get less next year when he is a year older and probably even more injured.

There are no other serious suitors with the cap space and interest in dealing for him.

I say we rescind our previous offer and let them stew in their juices to see if they bite on our yet to be acquired 3rd rounder for this year.

[big dog cowboy]

Now why again would the Saints' asking price for Howard go down? :D
Perhaps you should reread my post before you start ranting. The very first word I used was "maybe". I didn't make any case of why it might go down. :(

[St. Richard]

Perhaps you should reread my post before you start ranting. The very first word I used was "maybe". I didn't make any case of why it might go down. :(

My apologies if you thought it was a rant. I thought I was simply clarifying that the Saints are not under the gun to trade Howard. I quoted you because most of the subsequent posts were speculations on how little the Cowboys could give and still acquire Howard. Again, I apologize if the post sounds more emotional than intended.

[MichaelWinicki]

My apologies if you thought it was a rant. I thought I was simply clarifying that the Saints are not under the gun to trade Howard. I quoted you because most of the subsequent posts were speculations on how little the Cowboys could give and still acquire Howard. Again, I apologize if the post sounds more emotional than intended.


Oh come'on... just tell BDC that you were trying to goad him. He likes that. ;)

[Nors]

My apologies if you thought it was a rant. I thought I was simply clarifying that the Saints are not under the gun to trade Howard. I quoted you because most of the subsequent posts were speculations on how little the Cowboys could give and still acquire Howard. Again, I apologize if the post sounds more emotional than intended.

St Richard, I read last year in training camp Haslett toyed with the 3-4. Why not plug Howard at DE, Get Will Smith up as on OLB. Just a thought. Any thoughts to move him inside to DT? Thanks - or do they rotate Howard/Smith and play Howard DT some like last year?

[AmishCowboy]

I Was all for this trade at the Begining, but now the more I think about the Money Howard wants and his age, I am more leaning to Drafting Merriman or Spears at 11.

[MichaelWinicki]

I Was all for this trade at the Begining, but now the more I think about the Money Howard wants and his age, I am more leaning to Drafting Merriman or Spears at 11.


Please... just say "no" to Spears. He'll never be a playmaker at the NFL level. He's got some physical tools but his instincts don't seem great. But come to think of it I'm not big on Merriman either. He's got great "combine" numbers but 8 sacks or whatever it was doesn't translate to big numbers at the NFL level.

[St. Richard]

He is overpaid at almost $8M/yr.

DH may not even be the starter at DE should he stay with the team - they have Will Smith who had a great rookie campaign and Charles Grant who is really coming into his own as a speed rusher.

They would like to free up cap space to use at other spots on the team.

They cannot re-sign him to a longer more cap-friendly deal even if they wanted to until July.

Next year they will get nothing for him because he will cost too much to frachise - $9.4M. If they didn't get much this year for him they will only get less next year when he is a year older and probably even more injured.

There are no other serious suitors with the cap space and interest in dealing for him.

I say we rescind our previous offer and let them stew in their juices to see if they bite on our yet to be acquired 3rd rounder for this year.

Howard is unlikely to play for $7.8 million. The Saints will trade him or they will sign him to a deal in July. If Howard re-signs with the Saints, in spite of what some Saints fans think about Smith, Howard would indeed be the starter. Smith would be part of the rotation, which is what the Saints have said they wanted to do at DE and DT. We don't have to worry about next year, because one way or the other, this thing gets settled before the trade deadline in October/November.

No one knows who has had conversations with the Saints, but I'm increasingly concerned that Philadelphia will come in and grab Howard. They have the need, they have the money and I'd just get physically sick if the Eagles (or Redskins) get him.

Personally, I'm warming up to the suggestion that the Cowboys forget about Howard, switch to the 3-4 and draft Spears and Merriman, if possible.

[St. Richard]

St Richard, I read last year in training camp Haslett toyed with the 3-4. Why not plug Howard at DE, Get Will Smith up as on OLB. Just a thought. Any thoughts to move him inside to DT? Thanks - or do they rotate Howard/Smith and play Howard DT some like last year?

I think they strongly considered it, but with a weak secondary and poor linebackers overall, I don't think they thought they had enough personnel to make that switch. I agree that Howard can play a 3-4 DE, but it wouldn't be his strong suit. After watching the 3-4 for years when the Saints had the old Dome Patrol, I've seen a lot of the defense. Smith could play OLB in that defense if he dropped a few pounds, but I just don't think it fits Howard. Howard played extremely well as a DT this year when they were in obvious passing downs. They rushed Grant, Bryant, Howard and Smith and it was like a jailbreak. Against Carolina, Delhomme looked like a deer in the headlights.

I'm still very torn about this. I'd love to see Grant, Howard and Smith continue in a rotation for the Saints and you can never have enough quality defensive linemen IMO (although Howard's injuries have been a bit overblown). But I'd also love to see him back next to Glover, taking the heat off Ellis. As long as he stays with the Saints or goes to the Cowboys, I'm OK. I'm just worried about those !%!@$ Eagles. :D

[Hollywood Henderson]

So am I St.Richard...

While DH would be a good fit and trade if we could send them the never make any BIG plays, the human speedbump Dat...

He would command a large salary...I would not be so against it, if he hadn't had injury concerns recently...

While Spears may never be all Pro, he is very versatile and has good wheels...

My first choice though would be Merriman who was very well coached on D at Maryland...

We need QB killers and he could be one...IF...Parcells takes over on D...If the clueless zimmy WUSS were still in charge Merriman (Or anyone else) would be wasted and dropped back into a soft passive zone...

Then 95% of the fans here would be calling him a BUST...

Take over Parcells, only then can DOOMSDAY return!

[St. Richard]

Please... just say "no" to Spears. He'll never be a playmaker at the NFL level. He's got some physical tools but his instincts don't seem great. But come to think of it I'm not big on Merriman either. He's got great "combine" numbers but 8 sacks or whatever it was doesn't translate to big numbers at the NFL level.

I've never been real big on Merriman, but I'm warming up to the idea that he could be very effective in a 3-4. As far as Spears goes, I believe he is perfect for that defense and could have a Richard Seymour-type of impact on the defense. Why don't you think he'll be a good pro?

[jksmith269]

I think the biggest factor pushing the Saints to trade Howard is their center. He will be a FA at the end of the season and they really want to work a deal now for him and Duce but the problem is if they don't trade howard now then next offseason who will they Tag the Center who they want to keep a lot more or Howard...Either way they more than likely loose one straight out to FA. SO they would be better off trading Howard and getting something for him now than just loose him outright with nothing to show for him...... Then they can resign Duce and attempt to sign Lecharles the Center if not you have your tag available next season......

[boysfanindc]

Please... just say "no" to Spears. He'll never be a playmaker at the NFL level. He's got some physical tools but his instincts don't seem great. But come to think of it I'm not big on Merriman either. He's got great "combine" numbers but 8 sacks or whatever it was doesn't translate to big numbers at the NFL level.

Watched every game Merriman played a Maryland. He never dominated any games at the college level.

But yet we are going to take him at 11 because he has a great vertical.

Merriman at 11 would be a big mistake.

[Eskimo]

I think the biggest factor pushing the Saints to trade Howard is their center. He will be a FA at the end of the season and they really want to work a deal now for him and Duce but the problem is if they don't trade howard now then next offseason who will they Tag the Center who they want to keep a lot more or Howard...Either way they more than likely loose one straight out to FA. SO they would be better off trading Howard and getting something for him now than just loose him outright with nothing to show for him...... Then they can resign Duce and attempt to sign Lecharles the Center if not you have your tag available next season......

Are centers considered separately when it comes to the franchise tag or are they lumped in with Guards and Tackles? I do know that DTs and DEs are considered separately and CBs and Ss are also considered separately but OLB and ILB are pooled together.

If all OL are considered the same, I don't see how anyone could afford to franchise their center given what LTs command.

[ghettogandhi]

So am I St.Richard...

While DH would be a good fit and trade if we could send them the never make any BIG plays, the human speedbump Dat...

He would command a large salary...I would not be so against it, if he hadn't had injury concerns recently...

While Spears may never be all Pro, he is very versatile and has good wheels...

My first choice though would be Merriman who was very well coached on D at Maryland...

We need QB killers and he could be one...IF...Parcells takes over on D...If the clueless zimmy WUSS were still in charge Merriman (Or anyone else) would be wasted and dropped back into a soft passive zone...

Then 95% of the fans here would be calling him a BUST...

Take over Parcells, only then can DOOMSDAY return!

Hollywood your posts make it obvious that you have actually watched the players you are posting about-

spears will be a steady player for years to come- not very explosive

merriman will be a dominating 3-4 guy as a olb on 1 and 2 down and rushiing the qb on 3rd etc

erasmus james is the best 4-3 dlineman available

travis johnson is the second best dlineman available

top 4 defensive players

Derrick Johnson
Shawn Merriman
Erasmus James
Travis Johnson

Pac Man and Rolle will be very good but dline makes more of an impact on play to play-unless your name is Deion

[MichaelWinicki]

Hollywood your posts make it obvious that you have actually watched the players you are posting about-

spears will be a steady player for years to come- not very explosive

merriman will be a dominating 3-4 guy as a olb on 1 and 2 down and rushiing the qb on 3rd etc

erasmus james is the best 4-3 dlineman available

travis johnson is the second best dlineman available

top 4 defensive players

Derrick Johnson
Shawn Merriman
Erasmus James
Travis Johnson

Pac Man and Rolle will be very good but dline makes more of an impact on play to play-unless your name is Deion

If Merriman wasn't dominating at the college level why do you think he'll be dominating at the pro level?

[big dog cowboy]

Oh come'on... just tell BDC that you were trying to goad him. He likes that. ;)
I'm also a huge fan of a sharp stick in the eye as well! :eek:

[DWAREZ]

The re-signing of Bryant solidifies the Saints' depth at defensive end and I believe it does make the trade of Howard easier for the Saints to manage. But I don't see how the Saints' asking price would be dropped because they re-signed a depth player. The Saints have the cap room to keep him if they desired or they could trade him if the right deal came along. But the right deal wouldn't be to take less than what they feel is fair for a pass-rushing, run-stopping, high character guy who really doesn't want to leave. If it weren't for the fact that they drafted Will Smith in 2004 as the best player available, the Saints wouldn't have the surplus they have at DE and they wouldn't consider trading him. Yes, clearing his cap figure would help them re-sign other players, but isn't putting the best team on the field the main objective? If I were the Saints GM, I'd find a way to keep him and make my defensive coordinator figure out how to get Grant, Howard and Smith on the field at the same time (as they did on passing downs last season).

Now why again would the Saints' asking price for Howard go down? :D


The point is they will have 10.4 million invested in three DEs alone for 2005, this does not include Bryants contract which will bump it up further dependent on rule 51.

The point is that having vested two first rounders recently, with DHs 7 million in addition to Bryant plus any other DE salary on the books...it is simply way too much vested by way of picks, $$$ and cap space that limits what the SAints can do in FA especially since they cannot negotiate with DH on a long term deal until July 15. This would eliminate them from adding any June 1 FAs as well and lock up a significant amout of cap $$$ that could be wiped out if traded.

The Bryant signing in and of itself does not mean they have to unload DH, but it does mean they have way too much money vested in the DE position in general (10-11 million) and in backup DEs in particular ( 7-8 million) which is more than both their starters combined...(2.6 million).

That my friend is prohibitive especially since thay can get something back for DH and wipe most if not all of his salary off the books!!

[RoysAHitta]

why do the saints draft so many darn DE's? lol..

[dallasfaniac]

why do the saints draft so many darn DE's? lol..

The Saints draft BPA no matter what it seems. Like when they had Williams and still drafted McAllister.

[BigSaint8050]

I think they strongly considered it, but with a weak secondary and poor linebackers overall, I don't think they thought they had enough personnel to make that switch. I agree that Howard can play a 3-4 DE, but it wouldn't be his strong suit. After watching the 3-4 for years when the Saints had the old Dome Patrol, I've seen a lot of the defense. Smith could play OLB in that defense if he dropped a few pounds, but I just don't think it fits Howard. Howard played extremely well as a DT this year when they were in obvious passing downs. They rushed Grant, Bryant, Howard and Smith and it was like a jailbreak. Against Carolina, Delhomme looked like a deer in the headlights.

I'm still very torn about this. I'd love to see Grant, Howard and Smith continue in a rotation for the Saints and you can never have enough quality defensive linemen IMO (although Howard's injuries have been a bit overblown). But I'd also love to see him back next to Glover, taking the heat off Ellis. As long as he stays with the Saints or goes to the Cowboys, I'm OK. I'm just worried about those !%!@$ Eagles. :D

Saints never tried to go to the 3-4, however they have a 3rd down rushing defense that is a hybrid 3-4 where Tony Bryant/Darren Howard slide down to the DT spot and Will Smith is brought in as a rushing backer.

The Saints do not have the personell to go to the 3-4 or the desire. Will Smith and Charles Grant are 4-3 DE's, as is Darren Howard. Their linebackers, Courtney Watson, James Allen, Colby Bockwoldt, Derrick Rodgers, Orlando Ruff, Cie Grant, Lavar Fisher, are 4-3 linebackers and one of the weaker spots on the team as far as talent and depth go. Like I said they do have a rushing defense that is a hybrid of the 3-4 but that is it, they never considered going away from their base 4-3 alignment.

The reason they wanted Dat is so they could stick him in the middle and slide Courtney Watson to the weak side where he is better suited to play.

I see something happening in the next couple of weeks, be it with Dallas, the Vikings, Philly, Washington, etc. I expect the Saints to get close to what they want from some team as there are several teams interested, two of which have had contract discussions with Howard and his agent (one being the Cowboys the other one is unknown).

[BigSaint8050]

The point is they will have 10.4 million invested in three DEs alone for 2005, this does not include Bryants contract which will bump it up further dependent on rule 51.

The point is that having vested two first rounders recently, with DHs 7 million in addition to Bryant plus any other DE salary on the books...it is simply way too much vested by way of picks, $$$ and cap space that limits what the SAints can do in FA especially since they cannot negotiate with DH on a long term deal until July 15. This would eliminate them from adding any June 1 FAs as well and lock up a significant amout of cap $$$ that could be wiped out if traded.

The Bryant signing in and of itself does not mean they have to unload DH, but it does mean they have way too much money vested in the DE position in general (10-11 million) and in backup DEs in particular ( 7-8 million) which is more than both their starters combined...(2.6 million).

That my friend is prohibitive especially since thay can get something back for DH and wipe most if not all of his salary off the books!!

According to the last time I heard the Saints were something like 5.5 million under the cap. They are trying to rework Joe Horn and Mike McKenzies contracts as we speak which will free up some cap space from this year (Horn carries something like a 4.3 million dollar cap charge). They also have several veterans that might be released post June 1st, Ashley Ambrose, Orlando Ruff and Fred Thomas, who will save some more cap space.

They also appear to be close to done in free agency and I don't expect any big time moves to be made, even post June 1st.

[Hostile]

According to the last time I heard the Saints were something like 5.5 million under the cap. They are trying to rework Joe Horn and Mike McKenzies contracts as we speak which will free up some cap space from this year (Horn carries something like a 4.3 million dollar cap charge). They also have several veterans that might be released post June 1st, Ashley Ambrose, Orlando Ruff and Fred Thomas, who will save some more cap space.

They also appear to be close to done in free agency and I don't expect any big time moves to be made, even post June 1st.With the money they'd save by trading Howard and their cap room they could lock up a lot of players long term.

Can you say Deuce McAllister?

[DWAREZ]

According to the last time I heard the Saints were something like 5.5 million under the cap. They are trying to rework Joe Horn and Mike McKenzies contracts as we speak which will free up some cap space from this year (Horn carries something like a 4.3 million dollar cap charge). They also have several veterans that might be released post June 1st, Ashley Ambrose, Orlando Ruff and Fred Thomas, who will save some more cap space.

They also appear to be close to done in free agency and I don't expect any big time moves to be made, even post June 1st.

I believe the 5.5 was before the Fisher and Bryant signings but I am unsure how this changes their FA plans. But I do know 10.4-11 million is way too much for the DE position with 7-8 million being for BacKUP DEs and only 2.6 for the starters.

It is very doubtful they do not move DH because the cap implications and the value they can get for a player they no longer need. Way too much $$$ and draft picks absorbing much too much of the allotted cap space.

NO could have much flexibility by trading DH in FA as well as locking up their own players to longer and/or more cap friendly deals. I do not believe for one minute that having a backup DE at 7.6 million or so is a smart or desirable move.

That is simply poor management of personell, draft picks and $$$ if they do choose to keep him at this cost or at all.

[St. Richard]

The Saints do not have the personell to go to the 3-4 or the desire....Like I said they do have a rushing defense that is a hybrid of the 3-4 but that is it, they never considered going away from their base 4-3 alignment.

I don't disagree with anything you posted except this part of your post. They have not considered going away from the 4-3 as a base defense, but the Saints HAVE had the desire to incorporate the 3-4 into their defensive package and haven't had the personnel. I also suspect, but have no proof, that Haslett would prefer to use the 3-4 as their base defense. Just so my new cowboyszone.com friends would know I didn't just pull this stuff out of my, uh, ears :D, I found this from the Times Picayune dated August 25, 2004:

Haslett has been considering going to a 3-4 the past several seasons but now has the personnel to implement it, Pease said.

"Will's as fast as any of the linebackers we've got and as smart," Pease said. "We're going to limit what we do, but having him run around in space seems to be what he does pretty good.

"Jim can't wait. The 3-4 comes from his old Pittsburgh Steelers background. The thing about that front is it changes how offenses protect in pass block and how they block on run plays. Whatever level we take it to, it means opponents are going to have work on it every week."

The article goes on to say that the 3-4 would not be their base defense, but a third down option, which worked very well for them.

[St. Richard]

I believe the 5.5 was before the Fisher and Bryant signings but I am unsure how this changes their FA plans. But I do know 10.4-11 million is way too much for the DE position with 7-8 million being for BacKUP DEs and only 2.6 for the starters.

It is very doubtful they do not move DH because the cap implications and the value they can get for a player they no longer need. Way too much $$$ and draft picks absorbing much too much of the allotted cap space.

NO could have much flexibility by trading DH in FA as well as locking up their own players to longer and/or more cap friendly deals. I do not believe for one minute that having a backup DE at 7.6 million or so is a smart or desirable move.

That is simply poor management of personell, draft picks and $$$ if they do choose to keep him at this cost or at all.

Approx $5.5 million cap room for the Saints before the signings and approx $4.25 after if the figures I have are correct. Again, it doesn't matter much in Howard's case -- if they needed more room, as BigSaint said, there are several contracts that are going to be redone and players cut to create plenty of room.

We all agree that the Saints have a surplus at DE and have a lot of money tied up in the position. The problem is that people want to make that fact out to be time critical in that the Saints HAVE to make a move NOW without getting what they determine to be fair value for the player. They don't HAVE to trade him at all -- there is the possibility that they keep him and sign him to a long term deal. If they do that, his cap value will be much less than $7.8 million and the Saints will be able to re-sign any of the players they are trying to sign to extensions. Even if Howard played for the franchise tender amount, it wouldn't necessarily be disastrous for the Saints.

One other thing I'd like to address -- Howard would not be the backup if he starts the 2005 season with the Saints. He would be the starter and Smith would rotate in with Grant and Howard to give them a breather. Sounds like a plan to me. :D

Ultimately, I agree that Howard will be traded, as early as this week, to some team willing to pay the Saints' price and Howard's price. For selfish reasons, I've wanted that team to be the Cowboys. I just can't stand to think of him playing for Philadelphia, Minnesota or Washington. :mad:

[Nors]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=nfl&id=1867840

[BigSaint8050]

One other thing I'd like to address -- Howard would not be the backup if he starts the 2005 season with the Saints. He would be the starter and Smith would rotate in with Grant and Howard to give them a breather.

Exactly.....

As for the 3-4 Haslett has said several times, mostly last year after drafting Will Smith, that they had no desire to use the 3-4 as their base defense as it would severely handicap their playmakers on defense (Will Smith, Charles Grant, Darren Howard). However he did like the idea of using the hybrid 3-4 in certain situations.

Their form of the 3-4 defense was used primarily on 3rd and long to create pressure and to get their three big playmakers up front, Charles Grant, Darren Howard and Will Smith, on the field at the same time.
In this formation it had Charles Grant playing on the end with Darren Howard and Brian Young playing down, with Smith a rushing backer. Sometimes Will was standing up making this look similar to the 3-4 but a lot of times this defense had a base 4 down line with Grant and Smith on the outside and Darren and Young playing the DT's. This version was more greatly used and created a lot of pressure for the Saints down the streach.

I am not saying the Saints will not trade him, as I have been saying since they drafted Smith last year that he would be. Only that they are not desperate to do so. They probably won't make too many more moves before the draft as far as free agents go and they have enough cap room to sign all of their rookie contracts. They are not desperate to the point that they will cave in. As I said before thier are plenty of teams still interested in aquiring Howard (Dallas, Minnesota, Washington, St. Louis, Philadelphia, Green Bay, etc.), even though some are not as interested as the others. Dallas still is not the only suitor out there and thus can't just make thier own price.

I do think that this deal will get done, though it may not be in Dallas. I do think the Saints will get close to what they are asking for, they definitly will not get the short end of the deal. They want fair asking price for Howard, though it is yet to be determined what that is. Personally a late 1st round or a 2nd and a player is what I see happening with this. I do think it would benifit Dallas if Darren was in the Lone Star State lined up next to Glover, Ellis and Ferguson. I don't think there is a defensive end in the draft that is hands down better or even close to Howard, though there are a couple with the potential to be. Dallas would get a proven player in Howard with the ability to rush the passer, put up double digit sack years, play the run and make everyone on the lines job a little easier while doing so. Offensive lines couldn't key on Glover anymore as they have been doing for the last couple of years. Heck if this would happen I could see Ellis, Glover and Howard having double digit, or close to it years.

[Compacity]

I think I know why Saints signed this good DE.. probably because they think that Dallas Cowboys going to trade for Darren Howard...

[St. Richard]

I agree with everything you said BigSaint. Dallas seems like such a good fit for Howard.

[Hostile]

I agree with everything you said BigSaint. Dallas seems like such a good fit for Howard.You know you just broke a heart with that. Shame on ya. ;)

[Nors]

Exactly.....

As for the 3-4 Haslett has said several times, mostly last year after drafting Will Smith, that they had no desire to use the 3-4 as their base defense as it would severely handicap their playmakers on defense (Will Smith, Charles Grant, Darren Howard). However he did like the idea of using the hybrid 3-4 in certain situations.

Their form of the 3-4 defense was used primarily on 3rd and long to create pressure and to get their three big playmakers up front, Charles Grant, Darren Howard and Will Smith, on the field at the same time.
In this formation it had Charles Grant playing on the end with Darren Howard and Brian Young playing down, with Smith a rushing backer. Sometimes Will was standing up making this look similar to the 3-4 but a lot of times this defense had a base 4 down line with Grant and Smith on the outside and Darren and Young playing the DT's. This version was more greatly used and created a lot of pressure for the Saints down the streach.

I am not saying the Saints will not trade him, as I have been saying since they drafted Smith last year that he would be. Only that they are not desperate to do so. They probably won't make too many more moves before the draft as far as free agents go and they have enough cap room to sign all of their rookie contracts. They are not desperate to the point that they will cave in. As I said before thier are plenty of teams still interested in aquiring Howard (Dallas, Minnesota, Washington, St. Louis, Philadelphia, Green Bay, etc.), even though some are not as interested as the others. Dallas still is not the only suitor out there and thus can't just make thier own price.

I do think that this deal will get done, though it may not be in Dallas. I do think the Saints will get close to what they are asking for, they definitly will not get the short end of the deal. They want fair asking price for Howard, though it is yet to be determined what that is. Personally a late 1st round or a 2nd and a player is what I see happening with this. I do think it would benifit Dallas if Darren was in the Lone Star State lined up next to Glover, Ellis and Ferguson. I don't think there is a defensive end in the draft that is hands down better or even close to Howard, though there are a couple with the potential to be. Dallas would get a proven player in Howard with the ability to rush the passer, put up double digit sack years, play the run and make everyone on the lines job a little easier while doing so. Offensive lines couldn't key on Glover anymore as they have been doing for the last couple of years. Heck if this would happen I could see Ellis, Glover and Howard having double digit, or close to it years.

With #11,#20,#42 we can add a player or two 6 to 7 years younger than Howard at a fraction of the cost. I don't see any trade happening till after the draft candidly. No reason to on Dallas part. ;)

[DWAREZ]

Approx $5.5 million cap room for the Saints before the signings and approx $4.25 after if the figures I have are correct. Again, it doesn't matter much in Howard's case -- if they needed more room, as BigSaint said, there are several contracts that are going to be redone and players cut to create plenty of room.

We all agree that the Saints have a surplus at DE and have a lot of money tied up in the position. The problem is that people want to make that fact out to be time critical in that the Saints HAVE to make a move NOW without getting what they determine to be fair value for the player. They don't HAVE to trade him at all -- there is the possibility that they keep him and sign him to a long term deal. If they do that, his cap value will be much less than $7.8 million and the Saints will be able to re-sign any of the players they are trying to sign to extensions. Even if Howard played for the franchise tender amount, it wouldn't necessarily be disastrous for the Saints.

One other thing I'd like to address -- Howard would not be the backup if he starts the 2005 season with the Saints. He would be the starter and Smith would rotate in with Grant and Howard to give them a breather. Sounds like a plan to me. :D

Ultimately, I agree that Howard will be traded, as early as this week, to some team willing to pay the Saints' price and Howard's price. For selfish reasons, I've wanted that team to be the Cowboys. I just can't stand to think of him playing for Philadelphia, Minnesota or Washington. :mad:

I never argued that the Saints MUST move DH NOW as others may have but what you rightly confess is that they have currently way too much invested in the DE end position by way of draft picks, cap space and $$$. It is 10.4 million for the two first rounders and DH but 7.8 for Howard alone. Bryant + DH is a whopping 8 plus million on backup DEs for the 2005 season. Let us not deal in possibilities but more realistically in probabilities. It is more probable that the NO Saints will move DH as opposed to keeping him given the facts. It is possible they could keep DH but not probable given all of the above.

Sure they could wait until July 15, 2005 to renegotiate with DH and waste the 7.8 million in the mean time on his contract that they will only be forced to renegotiate. But it is senseless to not trade DH because it will bring some value to your team in a trade picks and/or a player that fits a need. It also wipes out the outrageous salary figure of 7.8 million off the books. Further, it allows them cap relief to sign any other FAs they desire bewtween now and the June 1, 2005 veteran cuts.

So the question really is what would be the best route for the Saints to go that is best for their club overall. It appears to be to move DH and have flexibilty to resign other players on their team to longer contracts and add value through a DH trade in addition to gaining precious cap space.

Adam may be able to shed light on their current cap space but I believe it is dwindling down about now...but that really is not the only consideration on why it would be in the Saints best interest to move DH, but only one of them accordingly.

[CowboyFan74]

I would give them Dat and a 4th rounder. Another question....if Howard is so good...why is Dallas only interested? things that make you go hmmm.

great avatar:beer1:

[5mics]

The Saints draft BPA no matter what it seems. Like when they had Williams and still drafted McAllister.
Yeah, that philosophy sure has worked out well for them..... :D ;)

[alpha]

Why would the Saints allow so much $ to be tied up in one position when they have so many other "core players" (Duece McAllister, C LeCharles Bentley, CB Mike McKenzie, WR Joe Horn, etc.) they still need to take care of before they hit FA themselves?

Can Loomis really afford to presume Howard will be open to negotiating a long-term extension from the Saints in July?

Are the Saints ready to see Howard play out the year at $7.8 mil garanteed and walk for nothin' in '06? Or are they prepared to franchise him again to the tune of $9.4 mil garanteed? I realize these aren't the only possibilities, but it'd be foolish to write these off as unrealistic eventualities. If Howard's not traded, I'd wager this is more likely than not.

Do Saints fans honestly believe keeping Howard is in the team's best interests? By holding out indefinitely, the Saints will only succeed in compromising their best chances to improve, IMHO.

[BigSaint8050]

Why would the Saints allow so much $ to be tied up in one position when they have so many other "core players" (Duece McAllister, C LeCharles Bentley, CB Mike McKenzie, WR Joe Horn, etc.) they still need to take care of before they hit FA themselves?

Can Loomis really afford to presume Howard will be open to negotiating a long-term extension from the Saints in July?

Are the Saints ready to see Howard play out the year at $7.8 mil garanteed and walk for nothin' in '06? Or are they prepared to franchise him again to the tune of $9.4 mil garanteed? I realize these aren't the only possibilities, but it'd be foolish to write these off as unrealistic eventualities. If Howard's not traded, I'd wager this is more likely than not.

Do Saints fans honestly believe keeping Howard is in the team's best interests? By holding out indefinitely, the Saints will only succeed in compromising their best chances to improve, IMHO.

And by giving in to a deal they think is less than market value will only hurt the team in the long run. They know what Howard is worth, they will hold on to him until a team comes up with something that is fair market value.

[alpha]

And by giving in to a deal they think is less than market value will only hurt the team in the long run. They know what Howard is worth, they will hold on to him until a team comes up with something that is fair market value.

This is the biggest flaw in your logic, IMHO. That holding out indefinitely the Saints will somehow miraculously net a better offer, and that keeping Howard for one year at $7.8 mil is in the best interests of your team.

Who are the 'Boys really bidding against? No one. Most of the teams rumored to be interested can be eliminated immediately simply based on their remaining cap space and Howard's asking price.

The only team that may be a remote possibility is the Vikings, but there's a couple problems with this too. First, it's a little odd that none of the local Minnesota papers or fan message boards are even speculating about this possibilty. According to Vikes fans, they're not interested. Second, they don't exactly have a great need for a pass rushing DE. Lance Johnstone has racked up 21 sacks in the last two years, and the Vikes just spent last year's first rounder on pass rushing DE Kenechi Udeze. Not to mention they also have a solid run stopping LDE in Kenny Mixon.

The Saints have 'til April 23 to accept the 'Boys offer, or I'd wager they fill their need for a pass rushing DE with one of their first round picks. After all, it wouldn't be prudent for Dallas to count on a trade that may never materialize.

Saints fans keep insisting they prefer to keep Howard rather than part with him for less than fair market value. But what is really more prudent; Spending that $7.8 mil on redundant talent, or on locking up core players at other more critical positions? And having an extra second round pick in '05, or watching Howard walk for nothing in '06? I just don't see how any Saints fan can think this is really in the best interests of their team, or this somehow doesn't compromise their team's best chances to improve.

[silver]

is that all of the targeted DE/OLB are drafted before we do at 11 and we lose our leverage with the saints and end up overpaying for Howard. Or even worse we end up with Eric Ogbogu/Kenyon Coleman starting at DE in the 4-3.

One solution would be that the coaches are really high on Khalen Thorton and are penciling him as the attacking OLB in the 3-4 with James and Dat as the ILB's and Shanle & Singleton battling for the other OLB spot. In that case we have enough starting D-linemen with Ellis, Ferguson and Glover.

[alpha]

The odds are long that Shawne Merriman, Erasmus James and David Pollack are all gone by #11. The 'Boys are also still in position to transition to a 3-4 base and could look at players like Marcus Spears, DJ, Crowder, Blackstock, Ware, etc. There's no way the 'Boys won't have options picking #11, #20 and #42.

[Nors]

The odds are long that Shawne Merriman, Erasmus James and David Pollack are all gone by #11. The 'Boys are also still in position to transition to a 3-4 base and could look at players like Marcus Spears, DJ, Crowder, Blackstock, Ware, etc. There's no way the 'Boys won't have options picking #11, #20 and #42.

I'll bet you two of those 3 are available when we draft at #11. I agree with you about options with our day 1 draft picks and options.