Nick Eatman Blog - Kosier Could Slide To Center For Bigger Line

[03EBZ06]

For years, offensive line coaches have said the goal is to get the five best lineman on the field at once, regardless of their most comfortable position.

Cowboys O-line coach Hudson Houck said that back in training camp and as the halfway point of the season approaches, that mindset likely hasn’t changed.

That’s why the return of veteran guard Derrick Dockery, who practiced this week for the first time since suffering a knee/leg injury in Week 2, could lead to a few changes on the line, possibly as early as next week.

With Dockery returning to the lineup, coupled by the play of Montrae Holland, the Cowboys might look to move veteran guard Kyle Kosier inside to center, a position he only practiced the last two seasons but has never played during his 10-year career.

“If they need me to, I will,” said Kosier, who was rather blunt when asked about the challenges of playing center. “Well, you have to snap the ball. It’s not easy to make the calls in loud stadiums, have your head down with a silent count, and snap the ball, too. I respect those guys for doing that.”


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[roughneck266]

Gotta like the can do attitude. Bigger jump than some folks think moving from guard to center though.

[LeonDixson]

I can see disaster in the making if they do that, unless Kosier masters the silent snap quickly and can snap out of the shotgun accurately.

[Zman5]

So much for that more nimble, athletic, youth movement on the OL.

[arglebargle]

Sure would like to see something more than reporter speculation in that article. Other than his question of Kozier, has any other report indicated that the Cowboys are contemplating or practicing this much?

[GloryDaysRBack]

i would LOVE this..

[AMERICAS_FAN]

I'm starting to think that Hudson Houck, as the OL Coach and Running game coordinator, really came into the 2011 season with a bad plan, and is now faced with scrapping and adjusting it a few games too late.

[burmafrd]

So Costa really won the job, eh?

[Deep_Freeze]

So much for that more nimble, athletic, youth movement on the OL.

Well they are just not ready right now for the role, especially in the run game. That was a Jerry sell job again, but at least we didn't go the whole season with it and not make an adjustment like we did last year with Ball. That alone, is encouraging to me.

Took us years to develop Free, I've never really believed any of them were ready to play right away.

[Dallas]

Glad to see our fans knowing it all and assuming all in the same breath.

Carry on..

[burmafrd]

Now Costa outweighs Kosier by 8 lbs and supposedly is one of our strongest linement; anyway that is what was claimed in camp. Kosier has always had trouble with big and strong DL. Yet the claim is the Kosier makes the line bigger and stronger at center?

Which he has practiced VERY little and has NEVER played any time from High school on.

[Deep_Freeze]

Now Costa outweighs Kosier by 8 lbs and supposedly is one of our strongest linement; anyway that is what was claimed in camp. Kosier has always had trouble with big and strong DL. Yet the claim is the Kosier makes the line bigger and stronger at center?

Which he has practiced VERY little and has NEVER played any time from High school on.

Well, I figure the point of the article, whether its correct or not, is to get the 5 best linemen on the field. Guess its assuming Free, Holland, Kosier, Dockery, and Tyron are the best 5, so find away to get them on the field together.

Who knows what will actually happen, I'm just encouraged that if it is true, that the coaching staff is still continuing to evaluate and make the changes that are best for the team.

[JohnsKey19]

Looks like a desperation move on the fly. If they made such a move, there's no way they think Costa is the C of the future.

[MichaelWinicki]

So Costa really won the job, eh?


No guarantee that Gurode would be the starting center either.

He didn't look so great the other night by the way.

[jnday]

Now Costa outweighs Kosier by 8 lbs and supposedly is one of our strongest linement; anyway that is what was claimed in camp. Kosier has always had trouble with big and strong DL. Yet the claim is the Kosier makes the line bigger and stronger at center?

Which he has practiced VERY little and has NEVER played any time from High school on.
Makes you wonder. For years fans complained about Kosier`s lack of strength at the POA. Now they want smaller , weaker linemen just like him. You can not get any push in the run game with these small guys , including Kosier.

[Deep_Freeze]

No guarantee that Gurode would be the starting center either.

He didn't look so great the other night by the way.

Yeah, but it was close between Gurode and Costa, except the money of course. If its close, and will cost alot less, I'm all for it.

Gurode was playing guard in that game, not center, so the evaluation is different. But it does point out that if they were close, can't really say that's a good thing for Costa right now.

[burmafrd]

Yeah, but it was close between Gurode and Costa, except the money of course. If its close, and will cost alot less, I'm all for it.

Gurode was playing guard in that game, not center, so the evaluation is different. But it does point out that if they were close, can't really say that's a good thing for Costa right now.

Gurode was never very good at guard; at best he was decent.

[Deep_Freeze]

Gurode was never very good at guard; at best he was decent.

Yeah that was my point in mentioning he might have not looked good cause he was at guard.

[Hostile]

I was assured that Kosier cannot play Center by someone on this forum. I am afraid this report must therefore be false.

[realtick]

Glad to see our fans knowing it all and assuming all in the same breath.

Carry on..


:laugh2:

[Chocolate Lab]

So much for that more nimble, athletic, youth movement on the OL.

:laugh2:

No kidding.

[tyke1doe]

Looks like a desperation move on the fly. If they made such a move, there's no way they think Costa is the C of the future.

I don't know why you would say this. He just may not be the C of right now.

[Zman5]

Well they are just not ready right now for the role, especially in the run game. That was a Jerry sell job again, but at least we didn't go the whole season with it and not make an adjustment like we did last year with Ball. That alone, is encouraging to me.

Took us years to develop Free, I've never really believed any of them were ready to play right away.

I doubt the young OL movement was JJ's idea. It's mostly likely JG and Houck's bad experiment. Like you said, good thing is at least they are admitting their mistake and trying to fix it.

[AbeBeta]

I was assured that Kosier cannot play Center by someone on this forum. I am afraid this report must therefore be false.

I'm sure he could do an OK job. He does all the line calls and, aside from that, a center is just a guard who snaps the ball. But without real practice and gametime at the position (i.e. at least some preseason games), this seems a bit insane.

More realistically, we are going to start working Kosier at C so that we can make Kowalski inactive in favor of Dockery

[Picksix]

I doubt the young OL movement was JJ's idea. It's mostly likely JG and Houck's bad experiment. Like you said, good thing is at least they are admitting their mistake and trying to fix it.

The thing is, even with bigger, stronger guys like Davis/Gurode/Columbo, we still weren't successful the last couple of year in short yardage situations. Combine that with the lack of mobility, and Garrett was really limited in terms of what he could call.

In the long term, I think the "experiment" will work. And even though they drafted three lineman this past Spring, I don't believe they thought they were done. I think OL will be a pretty high priority in the offseason once again.

And I don't know if those were Eatman's words, or if the Cowboys really believe that moving Kosier over to Center makes them any bigger or stronger. Costa's a pretty strong guy, just not very good apparently.

[BAT]

So much for that more nimble, athletic, youth movement on the OL.

Houck is what he is. He coaches power man schemes.

[ZeroClub]

If the team has to reshuffle the OL like this, 7 weeks into the season, apparently some rather significant miscalculations were made earlier.

[jaybird]

i wonder if the sudden emergence of Murray and his running style is the creator of these thoughts about OL adjustments?

[burmafrd]

I was assured that Kosier cannot play Center by someone on this forum. I am afraid this report must therefore be false.

yeah the OL coaches for this team have done such a great job that we can beleive they will wave their magic want and a player who has NEVER BEEN A CENTER in ANY GAME at ANY LEVEL will play well or even decently.

Actually Ross tucker mentioned that anyone that thought you could play center easily never had to do it in a game. But hey our WONDERFUL O LINE staff thinks so.

[shockandroll]

Beyond the fact that this is only one reporters theory and may not have been seriously discussed by coaches as something they want to do, it's amazing people are jumping all over the decisions made about the line, without acknowledging the facts yet again.

Since the start of the year Smith suffered a knee injury, Dockery suffered two injuries, Naggy had one injury before getting a second one that landed him on IR, Costa missed a game with an injury. We have had 3 LG's and two centers start this year because of injury. It's amazing the line has not been worse with all the injuries and changes made, imo.

As a result of the injuries, we brought Holland back and he played beyond the coaches expectations in his first game. The plan was probably to have him back up Dockery when Dock was ready to go. His play has earned him a shot to continue starting. What does this mean?

It means we now have a FA guard who was brought in to start on the bench and Kosier has been unexpectedly struggling at RG this year. It makes sense to consider Dockery might be an upgrade over Kosier at RG. If we make that move, this means we have our smartest linemen who makes most of the calls on the bench. Costa has had his share of issues and looks like he can use another year or two or strength training and work to reach his potential. Suddenly it would make great sense to give Kosier a look and see if that also leads to an improvement.

I see this as a great thing, we've landed players who can improve the line and are willing to make changes in the hopes of doing so. Injuries to Dockery and Naggy are what led to this, not mistakes as some are suggesting. If Davis and his back up both went out with injuries after we signed him, it would have thrown the entire line in flux too.

That the staff has gone out and landed two more linemen and is actually improving the line rather than just doing the best with what we have is a testament to their ability, not an example of their ineptitude as some are trying to suggest.

[shockandroll]

If the team has to reshuffle the OL like this, 7 weeks into the season, apparently some rather significant miscalculations were made earlier.

Yep, they did not calculate the starting and back up LG would both get hurt at the same time. They did not then calculate they would sign an out of shape guy off his couch to fill in and find him to be in great shape and play well, leaving them with the option of the original starter being on the bench and possibly being better then Kosier at RG.

If Dockery did not get hurt, none of this would be going on right now. It may be a great thing it worked out this way.

[stasheroo]

Beyond the fact that this is only one reporters theory and may not have been seriously discussed by coaches as something they want to do, it's amazing people are jumping all over the decisions made about the line, without acknowledging the facts yet again.

Since the start of the year Smith suffered a knee injury, Dockery suffered two injuries, Naggy had one injury before getting a second one that landed him on IR, Costa missed a game with an injury. We have had 3 LG's and two centers start this year because of injury. It's amazing the line has not been worse with all the injuries and changes made, imo.

As a result of the injuries, we brought Holland back and he played beyond the coaches expectations in his first game. The plan was probably to have him back up Dockery when Dock was ready to go. His play has earned him a shot to continue starting. What does this mean?

It means we now have a FA guard who was brought in to start on the bench and Kosier has been unexpectedly struggling at RG this year. It makes sense to consider Dockery might be an upgrade over Kosier at RG. If we make that move, this means we have our smartest linemen who makes most of the calls on the bench. Costa has had his share of issues and looks like he can use another year or two or strength training and work to reach his potential. Suddenly it would make great sense to give Kosier a look and see if that also leads to an improvement.

I see this as a great thing, we've landed players who can improve the line and are willing to make changes in the hopes of doing so. Injuries to Dockery and Naggy are what led to this, not mistakes as some are suggesting. If Davis and his back up both went out with injuries after we signed him, it would have thrown the entire line in flux too.

That the staff has gone out and landed two more linemen and is actually improving the line rather than just doing the best with what we have is a testament to their ability, not an example of their ineptitude as some are trying to suggest.

So your belief is that Dockery would do a better job than Kosier?

Sorry, I disagree with that.

I don't know where Dockery is suddenly getting considered as a great option when he played poorly in the one start he made against San Francisco.

If he's available in case of injury? Fine. Every team needs depth.

But this team's running game just started to show signs of life for the first time this season and I wouldn't want to mess that up by playing around yet again with the lineup when it's not necessary.

[Hostile]

I'm sure he could do an OK job. He does all the line calls and, aside from that, a center is just a guard who snaps the ball. But without real practice and gametime at the position (i.e. at least some preseason games), this seems a bit insane.

More realistically, we are going to start working Kosier at C so that we can make Kowalski inactive in favor of Dockery

yeah the OL coaches for this team have done such a great job that we can beleive they will wave their magic want and a player who has NEVER BEEN A CENTER in ANY GAME at ANY LEVEL will play well or even decently.

Actually Ross tucker mentioned that anyone that thought you could play center easily never had to do it in a game. But hey our WONDERFUL O LINE staff thinks so.
Oh ye who continue to underestimate Kosier.

By the way, not to try and do anything but save people's knees from the jerking, but it isn't like this is an imminent change, it is an option the team has and is aware of.

I return you to your previously scheduled freak out about nothing.

[JakeCamp12]

No guarantee that Gurode would be the starting center either.

He didn't look so great the other night by the way.

I watched the game in Baltimore and he looks about on his last leg...he looked slow and not able to move much...

[Plankton]

:laugh2:

No kidding.

It's more sad that two guys signed off the street during the season are considered better than guys who made the team coming out of camp.

Nice talent evaluation.

[Hostile]

It's more sad that two guys signed off the street during the season are considered better than guys who made the team coming out of camp.

Nice talent evaluation.
At one time Johnny Unitas was signed off the streets. Kurt Warner was too.

Sometimes a guy gets drafted fairly high and gets full of himself. Maybe doesn't work as hard. Then sees how close he is to losing everything and gets back to what made him get drafted so high. Not saying Dockery fits that yet, but it isn't out of the realm of impossible.

[MichaelWinicki]

I watched the game in Baltimore and he looks about on his last leg...he looked slow and not able to move much...

My gosh, Baltimore has him listed at like 335lbs. He's really ballooned up. You combine that with his chronic knee issues and you've got a guy who wasn't going to help that much help to Dallas... Especially at $5 mil a year in salary.

[MichaelWinicki]

Oh ye who continue to underestimate Kosier.

By the way, not to try and do anything but save people's knees from the jerking, but it isn't like this is an imminent change, it is an option the team has and is aware of.

I return you to your previously scheduled freak out about nothing.

That would make sense.

If the Cowboys were that displeased with Costa, he would have been out of there already.

[Double Trouble]

I was assured that Kosier cannot play Center by someone on this forum. I am afraid this report must therefore be false.

http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/files/3/8/6/7/pot-kettle.jpg

[Plankton]

At one time Johnny Unitas was signed off the streets. Kurt Warner was too.

Sometimes a guy gets drafted fairly high and gets full of himself. Maybe doesn't work as hard. Then sees how close he is to losing everything and gets back to what made him get drafted so high. Not saying Dockery fits that yet, but it isn't out of the realm of impossible.

Like that is even a valid comparison.

Dockery and Holland are both journeymen nearing the end of their careers. Unitas and Warner were both early in their careers. Dockery has been a JAG with two organizations, and Holland ate his way out of two himself. All that we heard this season was about the "youth movement" on the line, and how the Cowboys had turned the corner on the line.

Now, from the looks of an internal organization mouthpiece in Eatman, there is a line of thought where Holland and Dockery could line up at guard, and Kosier could be moved to center. To me, this indicates that the plan to go with Costa was a failed plan, and the fact that two guys signed off the street are viewed as being better immediate options to start points to a failure in talent evaluation.

[Hostile]

Like that is even a valid comparison.

Dockery and Holland are both journeymen nearing the end of their careers. Unitas and Warner were both early in their careers. Dockery has been a JAG with two organizations, and Holland ate his way out of two himself. All that we heard this season was about the "youth movement" on the line, and how the Cowboys had turned the corner on the line.

Now, from the looks of an internal organization mouthpiece in Eatman, there is a line of thought where Holland and Dockery could line up at guard, and Kosier could be moved to center. To me, this indicates that the plan to go with Costa was a failed plan, and the fact that two guys signed off the street are viewed as being better immediate options to start points to a failure in talent evaluation.Ah, so the only thing that invalidates it is where they are in their careers?

Rich Gannon, Jim Plunkett, Thomas Jones, Brandon Lloyd, Brian Waters, Plaxico Burress. The NFL is littered with stories of journeymen players who land on a roster and succeed after they've been free in the breeze waiting.

As to your last paragraph, you're saying that it is 100% certain that Kosier is headed to Center and they will be our Guards? Because Nick Eatman says this is an option?

Good to know. I will watch for it to happen as soon as Dockery is 100%.

[Hostile]

http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/files/3/8/6/7/pot-kettle.jpg (http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/files/3/8/6/7/pot-kettle.jpg)I told someone that he couldn't play Center?

Link?

[Risen Star]

In other words, Phil Costa can't play.

Shocking news.

[Plankton]

Ah, so the only thing that invalidates it is where they are in their careers?

Rich Gannon, Jim Plunkett, Thomas Jones, Brandon Lloyd, Brian Waters, Plaxico Burress. The NFL is littered with stories of journeymen players who land on a roster and succeed after they've been free in the breeze waiting.

As to your last paragraph, you're saying that it is 100% certain that Kosier is headed to Center and they will be our Guards? Because Nick Eatman says this is an option?

Good to know. I will watch for it to happen as soon as Dockery is 100%.

:laugh2:

Only the biggest homer would look at this situation and attempt to draw a parallel between two JAG linemen and two Hall of Famers (I believe Warner will be inducted at some point). Even the other names that you have listed after that were all more accomplished players than either of these guys.

Please continue to support the company line, and see this as anything other than bad evaluation of the talent on the OL.

My last paragraph was a reference to someone who works for the organization's official website giving information about how the line could likely be aligned - information that Eatman was likely given by someone who works for the same organization as he does - the Cowboys.

To me, it is a stupid idea. If it is one that happens, then it further highlights how the organization failed in their talent evaluation on the OL.

Spin away.

[Hostile]

:laugh2:

Only the biggest homer would look at this situation and attempt to draw a parallel between two JAG linemen and two Hall of Famers (I believe Warner will be inducted at some point). Even the other names that you have listed after that were all more accomplished players than either of these guys.

Please continue to support the company line, and see this as anything other than bad evaluation of the talent on the OL.

My last paragraph was a reference to someone who works for the organization's official website giving information about how the line could likely be aligned - information that Eatman was likely given by someone who works for the same organization as he does - the Cowboys.

To me, it is a stupid idea. If it is one that happens, then it further highlights how the organization failed in their talent evaluation on the OL.

Spin away.For the last 2 seasons Kosier has worked in practices at Center. That is all this report is at this point. More reports just like that. There is no reason whatsoever to assume it means anything, but by all means ice your knee when you get done jerking it.

[MichaelWinicki]

In other words, Phil Costa can't play.

Shocking news.

There may be some merit to that.

But I think if Costa was that big of a problem, then some lineup/roster shuffling would have occurred prior to this.

[MichaelWinicki]

but by all means ice your knee when you get done jerking it.

:laugh2:

[Plankton]

For the last 2 seasons Kosier has worked in practices at Center. That is all this report is at this point. More reports just like that. There is no reason whatsoever to assume it means anything, but by all means ice your knee when you get done jerking it.

No knee jerking necessary. Why would a guy who writes and works for the Cowboys bring it up? He had bandwidth to waste?

The fact that it was written is reason to ignore it?

Copy that. I'll continue on with believing that the Cowboys did get it right on their OL evaluation this offseason.

/sarcasm

[Risen Star]

There may be some merit to that.

But I think if Costa was that big of a problem, then some lineup/roster shuffling would have occurred prior to this.

With what option? Kowalski?

I think the fact is the Cowboys just don't have a lot of talent along the offensive line. We started the rebuild this past offseason, we're gonna need to continue that this offseason.

[Hostile]

No knee jerking necessary. Why would a guy who writes and works for the Cowboys bring it up? He had bandwidth to waste?

The fact that it was written is reason to ignore it?

Copy that. I'll continue on with believing that the Cowboys did get it right on their OL evaluation this offseason.

/sarcasmYou never heard Kosier was our emergency Center before? Seriously?

Why did they bring it up back then? Just to waste bandwidth?



We have a versatile player. You'd think that would excite fans. Instead they jerk that knee around and risk ACL tears and all kinds of bad dance move accusations.

[Plankton]

You never heard Kosier was our emergency Center before? Seriously?

Why did they bring it up back then? Just to waste bandwidth?



We have a versatile player. You'd think that would excite fans. Instead they jerk that knee around and risk ACL tears and all kinds of bad dance move accusations.

Yes, was aware of Kosier being the backup center.

However, this was the first mention of him possibly being inserted as a starter, not as a backup. Keep on obfuscating the issue. The issue here was that two guys signed off the street during the season are viewed as better options to start than guys who made the team from camp.

Two guys in their 30's who have been journeymen, are not guys with an upside, and ones that no other team deemed worthy of a roster spot are now considered the best option to start at guard.

How you or anyone else could walk away from this thinking that they could be like Warner or Unitas (your example, not mine), or even like Brian Waters, is beyond me. This situation points to poor talent evaluation on the interior of the line.

I will give credit where credit is due, and give major props for Tyron Smith, and I do think that Free is a solid player, his recent struggles notwithstanding. They did blow itnon the interior, and clearly did not have a good plan there.

[slomoxn]

Soooo, whatr I'm hearing is rue for letting go of Gurode. He was big, stong and could move the crowd. Now they are scrambling to fill a patchwork line of brutes. Yep great planning again.

[burmafrd]

taking a few snaps at center is a whole different thing from actually starting a game. Anyone thinking that a center is just a guard that snaps the ball is lacking in knowledge.

Ross Tucker said he could never have been a center and he played a lot of O line. Said being a center is a whole different thing then the other positions.

yet we are to believe that Kosier can just waltz in and start at center?

BS. Emergency is just that; the alternative after emergency is to bring in Jerruh at center.

Costa CLEARLY is not working out at center. I would believe we would see Kowalski before Kosier; if Kosier is coming in at center then the apocalypse is near.

According to couchscout and others, Costa is not very good at lateral movement; if he just has to go straight ahead or hold his position he is fine; but the minute he has to move laterally he is in trouble. The opposing teams have figured this out and are attacking that weakness; now if we have solid guard play that can be compensated for; but right now that is a little shaky.

With Free having some trouble, we might see Kosier back to the left and Holland or Dockery at right.

[Hostile]

Yes, was aware of Kosier being the backup center.

However, this was the first mention of him possibly being inserted as a starter, not as a backup. Keep on obfuscating the issue. The issue here was that two guys signed off the street during the season are viewed as better options to start than guys who made the team from camp.

Two guys in their 30's who have been journeymen, are not guys with an upside, and ones that no other team deemed worthy of a roster spot are now considered the best option to start at guard.

How you or anyone else could walk away from this thinking that they could be like Warner or Unitas (your example, not mine), or even like Brian Waters, is beyond me. This situation points to poor talent evaluation on the interior of the line.

I will give credit where credit is due, and give major props for Tyron Smith, and I do think that Free is a solid player, his recent struggles notwithstanding. They did blow itnon the interior, and clearly did not have a good plan there.No sir. It came up last year.

Also, let's be real here. Bill Nagy got hurt or at least 1 of these 2 guys off the street likely aren't here.

I used the Warner and Unitas examples for one reason and one only, they are stark enough for most rational thinking people to say to themselves, "Yeah, that's true. They were on the streets, bagging groceries and ended up making a lot of people who gave up on them look a little presumptuous."

Oh, and actually the best example I could have used is probably one you would appreciate, but it didn't dawn on me at the time. We plucked Tony Liscio off the streets and made a Super Bowl run after Ralph Neely put his foot on backwards wrecking a motorcycle. What the hell was Tom Landry doing if that guy was better than people he kept on the roster?

[Plankton]

No sir. It came up last year.

Also, let's be real here. Bill Nagy got hurt or at least 1 of these 2 guys off the street likely aren't here.

I used the Warner and Unitas examples for one reason and one only, they are stark enough for most rational thinking people to say to themselves, "Yeah, that's true. They were on the streets, bagging groceries and ended up making a lot of people who gave up on them look a little presumptuous."

Oh, and actually the best example I could have used is probably one you would appreciate, but it didn't dawn on me at the time. We plucked Tony Liscio off the streets and made a Super Bowl run after Ralph Neely put his foot on backwards wrecking a motorcycle. What the hell was Tom Landry doing if that guy was better than people he kept on the roster?

The Liscio example is a better one - unless you consider that he retired, and wasn't looking to play. Landry had to talk him into it. He also had lost Forrest Gregg to injury, and was out of bodies.

Oh, and as far as Kosier being mentioned as a possible starter at center a year ago, link?

No rational person would look at the Warner or Unitas examples as being close to this. Both were signed to be on the roster not as starters, and became starters due to injuries- Unitas when George Shaw was injured, Warner when Trent Green was. Dockery was signed and was a starter the next week. Holland was signed and started the same week.

Not even close as far as a comparison. Only a homer would think that it was relevant. Care to wager on whether Dockery or Holland will make a Pro Bowl, much less the Hall of Fame?

[Hostile]

The Liscio example is a better one - unless you consider that he retired, and wasn't looking to play. Landry had to talk him into it. He also had lost Forrest Gregg to injury, and was out of bodies.

Oh, and as far as Kosier being mentioned as a possible starter at center a year ago, link?

No rational person would look at the Warner or Unitas examples as being close to this. Both were signed to be on the roster not as starters, and became starters due to injuries- Unitas when George Shaw was injured, Warner when Trent Green was. Dockery was signed and was a starter the next week. Holland was signed and started the same week.

Not even close as far as a comparison. Only a homer would think that it was relevant. Care to wager on whether Dockery or Holland will make a Pro Bowl, much less the Hall of Fame?Can't find it for you right now. When we optimized the server speed a few weeks ago some of the search stuff has gone away. By all means check for yourself if you doubt this. Punch in my name and Primer and it will only be this year show up, not all the ones I have done for years.

I need to leave in about a half hour to get to a wedding in Phoenix.

Kosier is versatile. At one time I was against his signing. So happy I was wrong.

I still say an article about how he could be used at Center has no bearing on the team's feelings about Phil Costa, but I am a sucker for the truth.

[adbutcher]

We have too many stupid fans that sit on their haunches just ready to be upset about anything. Wind blows and they are mad.

[shockandroll]

So your belief is that Dockery would do a better job than Kosier?

Sorry, I disagree with that.

I don't know where Dockery is suddenly getting considered as a great option when he played poorly in the one start he made against San Francisco.

If he's available in case of injury? Fine. Every team needs depth.

But this team's running game just started to show signs of life for the first time this season and I wouldn't want to mess that up by playing around yet again with the lineup when it's not necessary.

I only pointed out a scenario in which the team may feel it makes sense to start Dockery at RG.

And yes, I do think Dockery has potential and only potential to play better at RG than Kosier has so far. Dockery came in late and missed time because of injury and your going to judge his ability on that one game? I don't think it's enough of a sample size.

I don't know for sure Dockery would be an upgrade, I do think he would hold his ground better and get more push than Koseir does, but there more to the position then just those two things.

I'm not saying they should do it and I'm certainly not saying it would definitely work. I'm only saying I understand why they would consider it.

[shockandroll]

Yes, was aware of Kosier being the backup center.

However, this was the first mention of him possibly being inserted as a starter, not as a backup. Keep on obfuscating the issue. The issue here was that two guys signed off the street during the season are viewed as better options to start than guys who made the team from camp.

Two guys in their 30's who have been journeymen, are not guys with an upside, and ones that no other team deemed worthy of a roster spot are now considered the best option to start at guard.

How you or anyone else could walk away from this thinking that they could be like Warner or Unitas (your example, not mine), or even like Brian Waters, is beyond me. This situation points to poor talent evaluation on the interior of the line.

I will give credit where credit is due, and give major props for Tyron Smith, and I do think that Free is a solid player, his recent struggles notwithstanding. They did blow itnon the interior, and clearly did not have a good plan there.

You are twisting the facts just a little. Holland was supposed to be the starter before his injury this year. He put in a lot of effort at a linemen training camp since getting cut and returned in better shape then he was before getting cut.

I'm not sure why a guy who went to a specialty camp for linemen and returned in possibly the best shape he's been in the last 2-3 years who 7 weeks ago was supposed to be the starter anyway would shock you as being a good option at gaurd. Can you explain that to me?

Saying Dockery was a journeyman is a little bit of a stretch too. He was a starter with the Skins and the Bills gave him the 3rd highest contract in NFL history at the postion which is why he left to go start for teh Bills. They cut him and another linemen to free up cap space because they were rebuilding a few years later. The Skins obviously still thought highly of him because they paid him 26.5 to come back. They cut him after an injury which is why he was available.

Both guys have shown they can play. I think labeling them as players off the street ignores a whole lot of teh story.

[shockandroll]

We have too many stupid fans that sit on their haunches just ready to be upset about anything. Wind blows and they are mad.

So true!

[shockandroll]

The Liscio example is a better one - unless you consider that he retired, and wasn't looking to play. Landry had to talk him into it. He also had lost Forrest Gregg to injury, and was out of bodies.

Oh, and as far as Kosier being mentioned as a possible starter at center a year ago, link?

No rational person would look at the Warner or Unitas examples as being close to this. Both were signed to be on the roster not as starters, and became starters due to injuries- Unitas when George Shaw was injured, Warner when Trent Green was. Dockery was signed and was a starter the next week. Holland was signed and started the same week.

Not even close as far as a comparison. Only a homer would think that it was relevant. Care to wager on whether Dockery or Holland will make a Pro Bowl, much less the Hall of Fame?

I remember talk about it last year or even the year prior too. It came up since Kosier was making the calls for the line and Gurode liked to throw the ball 10 feet over Romo's head when he was not looking.

Since Dockery was brought in because Holland was injured and only started because Holland was cut and I think because Naggy also was banged up, one could argue injuries are the only reason he started too.

Since Holland came back because both Dockery and Naggy got hurt, I think injury applies in his case as well.

Time will tell how much Holland makes of his chance inuries to Naggy and Dockery have given him.

[MichaelWinicki]

With what option? Kowalski?

I think the fact is the Cowboys just don't have a lot of talent along the offensive line. We started the rebuild this past offseason, we're gonna need to continue that this offseason.

Kowalski wold have been one option.

But even the option discussed here, moving Kosier to center.

And really Kowalski has been acceptable when he's been in there.

The bottom line is I'm not sure the Cowboy's coaching staff is viewing Costa as a car-wreck.

[stasheroo]

I only pointed out a scenario in which the team may feel it makes sense to start Dockery at RG.

And yes, I do think Dockery has potential and only potential to play better at RG than Kosier has so far. Dockery came in late and missed time because of injury and your going to judge his ability on that one game? I don't think it's enough of a sample size.

Well, unfortunately that's all we have to go on at this point. And I would rather use that than tape from his days in Washington.

I don't know for sure Dockery would be an upgrade, I do think he would hold his ground better and get more push than Koseir does, but there more to the position then just those two things.

I'm not saying they should do it and I'm certainly not saying it would definitely work. I'm only saying I understand why they would consider it.

If they look at it in practice as a 'just in case' measure, then I can't complain. But I'd like to see them go a few weeks with this line before they tinker with it again.

[supercowboy8]

I think if they do this then it just shows the coaches are not high on Costa, which I have been saying all year.

[JIGGYFLY]

I was assured that Kosier cannot play Center by someone on this forum. I am afraid this report must therefore be false.

So now a reporter is a reliable source.

You were just saying the other day that we should not listen to speculation by the media, yet now you can't wait to pat yourself on the back.:rolleyes:

[JIGGYFLY]

Can't find it for you right now. When we optimized the server speed a few weeks ago some of the search stuff has gone away. By all means check for yourself if you doubt this. Punch in my name and Primer and it will only be this year show up, not all the ones I have done for years.

I need to leave in about a half hour to get to a wedding in Phoenix.

Kosier is versatile. At one time I was against his signing. So happy I was wrong.

I still say an article about how he could be used at Center has no bearing on the team's feelings about Phil Costa, but I am a sucker for the truth.

Kosier took snaps in training camp last year to be the backup C and never felt comfortable and never played the position in a pre season game.

This is the main reason Costa made the roster Kosier's inability to get comfortable at the position.

[Plankton]

You are twisting the facts just a little. Holland was supposed to be the starter before his injury this year. He put in a lot of effort at a linemen training camp since getting cut and returned in better shape then he was before getting cut.

No fact twisting at all. In camp, they put faith in a guy who has been perpetually out of shape in his career, and patently unreliable. He was cut when he lived down to expectations. In the time that he was away, no one else saw fit to sign him, or give him a look. But, upon resigning with the Cowboys, he was the best option to start out of the blue? Yes, a lot of fact twisting there. The fact that this is where they are points to poor positional evaluation and planning by the team.


I'm not sure why a guy who went to a specialty camp for linemen and returned in possibly the best shape he's been in the last 2-3 years who 7 weeks ago was supposed to be the starter anyway would shock you as being a good option at gaurd. Can you explain that to me?


Not sure where you're getting shocked from. This was not a phrase that I used. It's more pointing out that signing a guy off the street to start immediately doesn't point to good planning, especially when it took one injury for this to happen. It doesn't speak to good evaluation with who was kept. If you think it does, then you have a much different definition of it then I do.


Saying Dockery was a journeyman is a little bit of a stretch too. He was a starter with the Skins and the Bills gave him the 3rd highest contract in NFL history at the postion which is why he left to go start for teh Bills. They cut him and another linemen to free up cap space because they were rebuilding a few years later. The Skins obviously still thought highly of him because they paid him 26.5 to come back. They cut him after an injury which is why he was available.

Both guys have shown they can play. I think labeling them as players off the street ignores a whole lot of teh story.


Only a homer would call Dockery and Holland anything other than journeymen. Society's signing by the Bills was the second worst OL signing that offseason, only trumped by the Langston Walker signing by the same team - the Bills. The fact that the Daniel Snyder Redskins gave him 26 million more is nothing to hail as a sign of his ability. Dockery wasn't in a camp this year - what does that tell you?

If either of these guys were signed by a team other than the Cowboys, the snickers in this forum would be deafening. But, since they were signed by the Cowboys, they are now considered capable.

[Plankton]

I remember talk about it last year or even the year prior too. It came up since Kosier was making the calls for the line and Gurode liked to throw the ball 10 feet over Romo's head when he was not looking.

Since Dockery was brought in because Holland was injured and only started because Holland was cut and I think because Naggy also was banged up, one could argue injuries are the only reason he started too.

Since Holland came back because both Dockery and Naggy got hurt, I think injury applies in his case as well.

Time will tell how much Holland makes of his chance inuries to Naggy and Dockery have given him.

I remember him taking reps in practice as a backup option after Procter was let go, but I do not remember him ever being spoken about as a starter. I'd love to see the article on it.

[bbailey423]

Well they are just not ready right now for the role, especially in the run game. That was a Jerry sell job again, but at least we didn't go the whole season with it and not make an adjustment like we did last year with Ball. That alone, is encouraging to me.

Took us years to develop Free, I've never really believed any of them were ready to play right away.

I too appreciate them basically admitting that they made a mistake and doing something about it NOW....as opposed to waiting until the offseason. This defense is too good and Romo is in the prime of his career. This is NOT the time to be experimenting with the OL. If this OL can just be consistent in short yardage situations and allow us to manage the clock when needed....I believe Romo could take care of the rest.

[Hostile]

So now a reporter is a reliable source.

You were just saying the other day that we should not listen to speculation by the media, yet now you can't wait to pat yourself on the back.:rolleyes:I'm not the media.

[Hostile]

Kosier took snaps in training camp last year to be the backup C and never felt comfortable and never played the position in a pre season game.

This is the main reason Costa made the roster Kosier's inability to get comfortable at the position.Incorrect.

[silverbear]

Now Costa outweighs Kosier by 8 lbs and supposedly is one of our strongest linement; anyway that is what was claimed in camp. Kosier has always had trouble with big and strong DL. Yet the claim is the Kosier makes the line bigger and stronger at center?

Which he has practiced VERY little and has NEVER played any time from High school on.

You're looking at it the wrong way, burm-- you're going from Costa and Kosier at center and guard to Kosier and Dockery... yeah, that's getting some bigger...

Whether bigger is better in this situation remains to be seen...

[silverbear]

No guarantee that Gurode would be the starting center either.

He didn't look so great the other night by the way.

That's the puzzling part of all this-- Kosier is battling plantar fasciitis, which is severely limiting his mobility... he won't be fully healed from this injury until after the season...

[silverbear]

:laugh2:

No kidding.

Hell, signing Holland and Loper should have been the tipoff that the smaller and faster movement was quickly coming to an end...

Gimme bigger and faster, thank you... there ain't many around like that, but they can be found... in our glory days, Larry Allen and Nate Newton were huge, but they could also haul it pretty good...

[baj1dallas]

It's more sad that two guys signed off the street during the season are considered better than guys who made the team coming out of camp.

Nice talent evaluation.

The two guys who made the team out of camp basically came off the street as well. Dockery and Holland have plenty of experience with the Cowboys. And you might not realize this, but rookies without the benefit of a true offseason are going to hit a wall pretty quick.

[CCBoy]

The two guys who made the team out of camp basically came off the street as well. Dockery and Holland have plenty of experience with the Cowboys. And you might not realize this, but rookies without the benefit of a true offseason are going to hit a wall pretty quick.

I'm not sure how far out those 'projected' walls are for both journeymen or 'rooks,' but we first have to get through the lockout caused ankle sprains and hamstring pulls.

[casmith07]

"sup guys...I heard the Cowboys can't evaluate talent on the offensive line."

http://www.nflgridirongab.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/83713_Cowboys_Tyron_Smith_Football-223x300.jpg

[Plankton]

"sup guys...I heard the Cowboys can't evaluate talent on the offensive line."

http://www.nflgridirongab.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/83713_Cowboys_Tyron_Smith_Football-223x300.jpg

For the reading impaired:

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4208769&postcount=51


I will give credit where credit is due, and give major props for Tyron Smith, and I do think that Free is a solid player, his recent struggles notwithstanding. They did blow itnon the interior, and clearly did not have a good plan there.

[JIGGYFLY]

Incorrect.

Well the master has spoken so it must be so. :rolleyes:

[Eskimo]

If the team has to reshuffle the OL like this, 7 weeks into the season, apparently some rather significant miscalculations were made earlier.

Yes, the miscalculations is that the kids would be ready to play this year without proper OTAs and TCs.

The other miscalculations is that Houck could coach a bunch of smallish but nimble guys into a coherent and cohesive line.

I like the direction JG is trying to take the OL in but he needs more talent and a new OL coach to make it work.

[Hostile]

Well the master has spoken so it must be so. :rolleyes:Unfortunately for your point, it is.