Melvin Ingram is a beast

[supercowboy8]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UuL8H2U-SA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbfNWIyflVM&feature=related

he will be a top 15 pick and should be ours.
He played 8 positions in highschool including QB, RB, WR, and was even a Safety and kicker. He plays 3 different positions at SC now. DT,DE, and OLB. He is a athletic freak that can get pressure, stop the run and cover. If you want a day one replacement for Spencer this is the guy.
He has great speed, will drop about 10 pounds and not lose any strength. He will be a combine monster and shoot up the draft board, I hope we can get him.

[cobra]

I don't know anything about the guy, but I watched some clips and he seems to be hella slow off the ball. Like a full second slower to react than everyone else. Is that accurate?

[supercowboy8]

I don't know anything about the guy, but I watched some clips and he seems to be hella slow off the ball. Like a full second slower to react than everyone else. Is that accurate?

no I don't know if you were watching the right guy. Scouts all say he has great burst off the line. At 6'2" he has great size t coil up and get that burst off the line. If he is slow and can still make that many plays in the backfield then what could he do with alittle more coaching him to get off the line faster.
I don't see him being slow off the line at all.

[supercowboy8]

per scout.com via ESPN


Pass Rush Skills "First-step quickness is a notch below elite. A bit inconsistent with snap awareness. Shows above average body control and torso flexibility. Good athletic ability and change-of-direction skills for his size (see double move for sack 6:22 remaining 4th QTR vs. ALA 2010). Displays excellent closing burst to the QB  particularly for a 270-pound athlete. Shows ability to turn speed into power. Still developing instincts as a pass rusher. Often times he will win with first-step quickness or knock OL back on heels with initial pop, but then fails to capitalize. Needs to become more decisive and confident with counter moves. "

Versus the run Has more game experience on passing downs but flashes upside in this area. Uses his leverage effectively and is a bit stronger at the point of attack than expected. Flashes the ability to anchor versus the double team. Also does a nice job of keeping his feet moving versus the zone run. Shows above average discipline and works hard to maintain outside contain. Has very good range versus the run. Can really turn on the jets when pursuing from the backside. He can improve his tackling skills. Awareness is adequate but can still improve. Flashes some power at the point of attack but leaves his feet and will fall off too many attempted tackles.

Versatility "Began career at LB and has been in a rotation at DE the last two seasons (2009-'10). Will be a fulltime starter at DE in 2011. Has the potential to play DE in a four-man front, as well as OLB in some 3-4 schemes (Ravens, Steelers, etc.). Has some experience rushing the QB from inside, as well. "

Instincts/Motor "Never see him take a play off. Will pursue hard from backside and gives great effort when on the field. However, he has basically been a pass-rush specialist who is on the field approximately 15 snaps a game, so 2011 season (first as fulltime starter) will provide a better indication of motor and stamina. Instincts are still a work in progress. Does a nice job of finding the ball when he's on the move but sometimes will be late to diagnose when working in the phone booth. Snap awareness needs to be more consistent, especially as an edge rusher. "

[Eskimo]

He definitely has to be on our radar for that #14 pick. Every pick will start to have some questions at that point. He fills two huge needs for us at OLB (if we let Spencer walk) and as a pass rushing complement to Ware.

I would still put Kirkpatrick (if he falls which is unlikely) or DeCastro (decent chance he falls to us - OGs always fall) over him as they are more elite talents.

[Woods]

How about Ware, Spencer and Ingram?

In case DeCastro and the CBs are gone, assuming we don't trade down.

It would bolster our LBs core for sure.

[supercowboy8]

He definitely has to be on our radar for that #14 pick. Every pick will start to have some questions at that point. He fills two huge needs for us at OLB (if we let Spencer walk) and as a pass rushing complement to Ware.

I would still put Kirkpatrick (if he falls which is unlikely) or DeCastro (decent chance he falls to us - OGs always fall) over him as they are more elite talents.

I'm not so high n Kirkpatrick, his hips are much to stiff to be a press man cover CB in the NFL. looks like a great zone cover 2, tampa 2 CB where if he press he then has help behind him and then can play off in zone and see the play in front of him.

As for DeCastro, I love the guy and am all for fixing this OL I just don't see Jerry doing it. I think we go heavy after either Nicks or Grubbs and also I think Center is a much bigger need. \But the main reason I think we don't het DeCastro is that I have read and heard KC and Arizona is really interested in him and will take him in the 1st round.

[supercowboy8]

How about Ware, Spencer and Ingram?

In case DeCastro and the CBs are gone, assuming we don't trade down.

It would bolster our LBs core for sure.

That would mean we would have to resign Spencer $$$ so you have no reason to pick Ingram in the first round. Also where can three OLBs play?

[kevinhickey]

I didn't see much during his bowl game.

[Eskimo]

I'm not so high n Kirkpatrick, his hips are much to stiff to be a press man cover CB in the NFL. looks like a great zone cover 2, tampa 2 CB where if he press he then has help behind him and then can play off in zone and see the play in front of him.

As for DeCastro, I love the guy and am all for fixing this OL I just don't see Jerry doing it. I think we go heavy after either Nicks or Grubbs and also I think Center is a much bigger need. \But the main reason I think we don't het DeCastro is that I have read and heard KC and Arizona is really interested in him and will take him in the 1st round.

Oh well, that'll be a shame if DeCastro is gone. I can't justify trading up from the mid-first round for a Guard. I''d consider it at Center or LT but not OG or RT.

To be honest, I'm not a big fan of paying a big FA salary for an OG. We went down that route with Bigg Davis and it didn't turn out all that well for us. I just don't think OGs usually make enough of a difference to be worth a premium salary although there are odd exceptions like Larry Allen and Steve Hutchinson and I don't think either of the players you mentioned are as good as those 2 guys.

I actually think that if DeCastro is gone we should drop down in the draft to the 20s and pick up an extra 2nd rounder. Then maybe we can draft two OGs with the four picks we have in the first 3 rounds. According to Wes Bunting, this is a very deep draft for OGs with several good prospects in the first 3 rounds available. We should also then have picks freed up to try and find a CB and an OLB/DE as well. We can hopefully then patch up the rest of our holes in FA.

[Noryb]

Is it me or does his arms look short?

[supercowboy8]

I didn't see much during his bowl game.

you must not have watched.
he had 4 tackles and 1.5 sacks

[supercowboy8]

Is it me or does his arms look short?

look normal to me, just gotta wait for the combine for this measurement.

[VACowboy]

I still want someone to tell me why Ingram is better than Mercilus. Nothing I read agrees that Ingram is a physical freak. Mercilus, neither, but his production is hard to ignore. I've seen neither of these guys play, but frankly, judging from what I read, I don't want either one at #14. That goes for Gilmore and Dennard as well. If DeCastro is gone, I'm looking hard for a trade down. If it comes to that, I'll settle for the 16, 22.5 and 9 guy and a late second round pick.

[MichaelWinicki]

I still want someone to tell me why Ingram is better than Mercilus. Nothing I read agrees that Ingram is a physical freak. Mercilus, neither, but his production is hard to ignore. I've seen neither of these guys play, but frankly, judging from what I read, I don't want either one at #14. That goes for Gilmore and Dennard as well. If DeCastro is gone, I'm looking hard for a trade down. If it comes to that, I'll settle for the 16, 22.5 and 9 guy and a late second round pick.

Agreed on Ingram and Mercilus.

Potentially nice players, but not dominant players.

I don't think either one is superior to Spencer.

[Woods]

That would mean we would have to resign Spencer $$$ so you have no reason to pick Ingram in the first round. Also where can three OLBs play?

I think RR could definitely use three rushers on passing downs. I think in Ryan's schemes he could find a use for three good LBs plus Ware and Lee.

It's not my top scenario. I prefer DeCastro or a top CB. But I wouldn't be upset with Ingram.

[TheCount]

I don't know anything about the guy, but I watched some clips and he seems to be hella slow off the ball. Like a full second slower to react than everyone else. Is that accurate?

Yeah I noticed that too, bit slow, seems more like a DE to me, even if he is by athletic but lack of elite speed may not be so bad at strong side OLB.

The whole physical freak thing is so overplayed though.
Ast year, there were a few members promising than Robert Quinn would jump out of the stadium, do 60 reps and run a 4.2. He didn't live up to the hype.

[kevinhickey]

I will keep track of him at the combine to see how he performs. I'm a little spoiled after watching Ware play; I would love for Dallas to uncover, another pass rushing freak.

[Eskimo]

Agreed on Ingram and Mercilus.

Potentially nice players, but not dominant players.

I don't think either one is superior to Spencer.

The problem with Spencer isn't his overall level of play which is pretty good.

The problem is that he is a bad pass rusher. He is not a good speed rusher, he doesn't bullrush at all, he is not good with his hands and he doesn't have a good inside counter. He has no instincts to get by pass blockers. He is too slow twitch and doesn't have good moves.

We are desperate for a second pass rusher to complement Ware. In 2008 and 2009 when our defense was playing better (at least some of the time) Ratliff was the guy who complemented Ware. Unfortunately, Rat can't get by anymore and is getting stoned at the line and no one else is stepping up for him.

If we were to bring back Spencer, we have to bring in someone else to help get after QBs in the nickel.

Under these circumstances, we are just better off parting with Spencer even if it means accepting a lesser overall player who is a better pass rusher. I think it is worth it to pay that premium in FA and I also believe it is worth it to draft someone with our first round pick who projects to be a double digit sack guy. We apparently were thinking along these lines last year and had Aldon Smith ranked ahead of Tyron Smith according to some media sources.

[Gaede]

I like Ingram alot.

He does, at first glance, appear to be slow off the ball. But it looks like he's asked to either drop or rush on alot of plays--and I think that his slow step is merely him diagnosing the play and deciding which duty to fulfill. The most impressive thing to me, is that once he decides to do one or the other, he gets there extremely fast--despite the initial hesitation. This tells me that Ingram has both excellent awareness and explosion

[MichaelWinicki]

I like Ingram alot.

He does, at first glance, appear to be slow off the ball. But it looks like he's asked to either drop or rush on alot of plays--and I think that his slow step is merely him diagnosing the play and deciding which duty to fulfill. The most impressive thing to me, is that once he decides to do one or the other, he gets there extremely fast--despite the initial hesitation. This tells me that Ingram has both excellent awareness and explosion

But without the instincts maybe.

[Doomsday101]

He definitely has to be on our radar for that #14 pick. Every pick will start to have some questions at that point. He fills two huge needs for us at OLB (if we let Spencer walk) and as a pass rushing complement to Ware.

I would still put Kirkpatrick (if he falls which is unlikely) or DeCastro (decent chance he falls to us - OGs always fall) over him as they are more elite talents.

I agree. Ingram in my view is at least one of the valid options for the Cowboys. He is a very good player and could be a big help to this team.

As you pointed out Kirkpatrick and DeCastro also are 2 guys that would be great additions to this team.

[burmafrd]

we need SOMEONE that is a threat to get double digit sacks. Is any of these guys likely to do that?

[jmac]

Im a Gamecocks fan and Ingram is awesome. He can do anything he kind of reminds me of Randy White. He is just all out energy a leader and a ball hawk. Trust me if it was up to me I would draft him at 14 no question.

[supercowboy8]

Melvin Ingram, DE, South Carolina
One of the most consistent players in the SEC over the past few seasons has been Melvin Ingram. He finished his collegiate career with a superb game against Nebraska. Ingram recorded four tackles with 1.5 sacks and was a disruptive force at the line of scrimmage. To get the Bowl started, Ingram blasted quarterback Taylor Martinez on an option run for tackle for a loss. In the fourth quarter, the Cornhuskers signal caller dove to the ground to avoid a hit from Ingram. He showed his versatility by beating a guard with a speed-and-shed rush move to sack Martinez.

This year, Ingram totaled 48 tackles with 15 tackles for a loss and 10 sacks. In 2010, Ingram had nine sacks and 11 tackles for a loss for the Gamecocks. He is a rare athlete. The 6-foot-2, 276-pounder has natural pad level with sudden speed and agility. Ingram ran a fake punt for a 68-yard touchdown against Georgia earlier this season and returned a fumble for a touchdown against the Bulldogs. As a pass rusher, Ingram is a mismatch for offenses if he rushes from defensive tackle or end. Ingram could get consideration in the top 20 picks of the 2012 NFL Draft (http://www.walterfootball.com/draft2012.php).

http://www.walterfootball.com/draft2012stock_16.php

[Gaede]

But without the instincts maybe.

I don't think so. I don't think you'd be able to rush the passer and/or cover as well as he does without the instincts.

[cobra]

I watched a few more clips of the guy (which certainly is not a sufficient basis to judge him) but I am even more concerned because he seems to be noticeably slow off the ball. Maybe it is the defense and his job to make reads or something. But it bugs me nonetheless when we are talking about taking this guy top 15.

For instance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5dkwPHQJXk&feature=related

In those clips from one game, there is some to like what he shows, and there is some that gives me great concern.

If we are going to be taking a pass rusher at 14, I'd like it to be a guy with an elite ability to get off the ball. Wares, Freeney, etc are all great pass rushers because they explode at the snap.

Ingram looks like a guy who make plays and provides scheme versatility, but he doesn't blow me away as a pass rusher. In that regard, I wonder why he is an improvement over Spencer.

[Gaede]

I watched a few more clips of the guy (which certainly is not a sufficient basis to judge him) but I am even more concerned because he seems to be noticeably slow off the ball. Maybe it is the defense and his job to make reads or something. But it bugs me nonetheless when we are talking about taking this guy top 15.

For instance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5dkwPHQJXk&feature=related


I think it is just the way he's told to play, as I mentioned earlier. I'd like to know one way or the other, for sure, before I'd want him at 14. But it looks to me like he is supposed rush or cover depending on the offense, and his initial hesitation is just him diagnosing the play before he rushes or covers.

I mean, that's the only way I could see someone being so noticeably slow off the snap. When he does decide to rush or cover, you see such an explosive first step that I find it hard to believe he would be so initially slow.

[xwalker]

I watched a few more clips of the guy (which certainly is not a sufficient basis to judge him) but I am even more concerned because he seems to be noticeably slow off the ball. Maybe it is the defense and his job to make reads or something. But it bugs me nonetheless when we are talking about taking this guy top 15.

For instance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5dkwPHQJXk&feature=related

In those clips from one game, there is some to like what he shows, and there is some that gives me great concern.

If we are going to be taking a pass rusher at 14, I'd like it to be a guy with an elite ability to get off the ball. Wares, Freeney, etc are all great pass rushers because they explode at the snap.

Ingram looks like a guy who make plays and provides scheme versatility, but he doesn't blow me away as a pass rusher. In that regard, I wonder why he is an improvement over Spencer.

Ingram appears to play run-first, passrush-2nd in a lot of plays.

Look at :54 and :258 in that link. He looks really quick off the snap in those plays.

He looks like a perfect fit as a Stong-Side OLB in a 3-4. Having said that, I don't know about picking him at #14. Is he that much better than some other passrushers that would be available later?

In regards to quickness of the snap, Bruce Irvin is a incredible in that area.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/y9s85CjEexg (http://www.youtube.com/embed/y9s85CjEexg)
Check out 2:38 and 4:02 in this clip.
The issue with Irvin is that he is not really a fit at SOLB. Ware would need to play SOLB and let Irvin play WOLB. A lot of projections currently have in the mid 2nd round. That will probably change after the combine.

[visionary]

Ingram appears to play run-first, passrush-2nd in a lot of plays.

Look at :54 and :258 in that link. He looks really quick off the snap in those plays.

He looks like a perfect fit as a Stong-Side OLB in a 3-4. Having said that, I don't know about picking him at #14. Is he that much better than some other passrushers that would be available later?

In regards to quickness of the snap, Bruce Irvin is a incredible in that area.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/y9s85CjEexg (http://www.youtube.com/embed/y9s85CjEexg)
Check out 2:38 and 4:02 in this clip.
The issue with Irvin is that he is not really a fit at SOLB. Ware would need to play SOLB and let Irvin play WOLB. A lot of projections currently have in the mid 2nd round. That will probably change after the combine.

xwalker

how would you rate Vinny Curry relative to these guys (Ingram, Hightower, and Irvin) since he might be available even in the 3rd round

long term might he be right up there?

[MichaelWinicki]

I still see a problem with 1st down pass rush no matter who's playing the strong-side OLBer position, because this guy isn't pass rushing.

You're either getting just the front 3 or the front 3 plus Ware.

And when you have one starting DE getting 1 sack and the NT getting 2 for the entire season... Well I think the pass rush issues go deeper than Spencer only getting 6 sacks on the season.

[supercowboy8]

I still see a problem with 1st down pass rush no matter who's playing the strong-side OLBer position, because this guy isn't pass rushing.

You're either getting just the front 3 or the front 3 plus Ware.

And when you have one starting DE getting 1 sack and the NT getting 2 for the entire season... Well I think the pass rush issues go deeper than Spencer only getting 6 sacks on the season.

I agree with this but looking at the 3-4 DEs at 14 then you are reaching big time. Derek Wolfe is pretty much the only one I like right now to draft early and that would be mid-late 2nd or maybe early 3rd but I think he will rise up boards.

So because there isn't a Watt in the draft what should you do reach for a 3-4 DE and hope he can be a great pass rusher. No you move to other positions.

I would love to get Campbell in FA but i doubt that will happen.
Red Bryant would be a smart signing. He plays DE in a 4-3 now in Seattle, so I think he can make the move to 3-4 DE.

[Joe Rod]

I like Ingram alot.

He does, at first glance, appear to be slow off the ball. But it looks like he's asked to either drop or rush on alot of plays--and I think that his slow step is merely him diagnosing the play and deciding which duty to fulfill. The most impressive thing to me, is that once he decides to do one or the other, he gets there extremely fast--despite the initial hesitation. This tells me that Ingram has both excellent awareness and explosion

I haven't done a whole lot of considering who will be what in the draft, but I am a huge Ingram fan. The guy has shown the ability to just dominate games. He was a one man wrecking crew against Auburn.

[tm1119]

I agree with this but looking at the 3-4 DEs at 14 then you are reaching big time. Derek Wolfe is pretty much the only one I like right now to draft early and that would be mid-late 2nd or maybe early 3rd but I think he will rise up boards.

So because there isn't a Watt in the draft what should you do reach for a 3-4 DE and hope he can be a great pass rusher. No you move to other positions.

I would love to get Campbell in FA but i doubt that will happen.
Red Bryant would be a smart signing. He plays DE in a 4-3 now in Seattle, so I think he can make the move to 3-4 DE.

Yes, love Red Bryant. Dude is a freak with his size and strength.

[supercowboy8]

Yes, love Red Bryant. Dude is a freak with his size and strength.

if he can play DE in a 4-3 at his size what can he do as a 3-4 DE. I would love a guy that is 6-4 320 pounds and can get into the backfield.

[Future]

I don't see where this guy fits in a 3-4. He'd have to play OLB in our scheme, and I don't think he's got the burst to be an outside pass rusher and it seems like he did quite a bit of damage rushing from the DT position at SC.

He reminds me of Vernon Gholston for some reason. Not saying he's going to be a total bust, but I don't see him having the same success in the NFL as he had in college.

[tm1119]

if he can play DE in a 4-3 at his size what can he do as a 3-4 DE. I would love a guy that is 6-4 320 pounds and can get into the backfield.

He honestly reminds me of a poormans Ngata. That is probably a bit of an exaggeration but that's what came to mind the 3 or 4 games I watched him in this year. He's a force on the line and surprisingly quick for such a big guy. I think he could play both NT and DE in our scheme.

[Future]

He honestly reminds me of a poormans Ngata. That is probably a bit of an exaggeration but that's what came to mind the 3 or 4 games I watched him in this year. He's a force on the line and surprisingly quick for such a big guy. I think he could play both NT and DE in our scheme.
Ngata has 60 lbs. on Ingram

[supercowboy8]

I don't see where this guy fits in a 3-4. He'd have to play OLB in our scheme, and I don't think he's got the burst to be an outside pass rusher and it seems like he did quite a bit of damage rushing from the DT position at SC.

He reminds me of Vernon Gholston for some reason. Not saying he's going to be a total bust, but I don't see him having the same success in the NFL as he had in college.

I don't see this burst problem people keep talking about. I guess he could be faster but I think he still has great speed to get around the corner.

He reminds me alot of Terrell Suggs.
But other than Ingram Upshaw, Hightower, and Irvin is our only options if we don't bring Spencer back.
I'm not going to trust a 2nd round or 3rd round OLB to start day one.

[supercowboy8]

Ngata has 60 lbs. on Ingram
I think he was talking about Red Bryant

[Future]

I don't see this burst problem people keep talking about. I guess he could be faster but I think he still has great speed to get around the corner.

He reminds me alot of Terrell Suggs.
But other than Ingram Upshaw, Hightower, and Irvin is our only options if we don't bring Spencer back.
I'm not going to trust a 2nd round or 3rd round OLB to start day one.
I just think he looks slow for a guy whose supposed to be a ridiculous athlete. It's hard to tell I guess.

I don't think any of them are going to give us the production Spencer does, believe it or not. And if signing Spencer we can use #14 on a CB or OLine, it's totally worth it imo.
I think he was talking about Red Bryant
You're correct, I misread.

[supercowboy8]

I just think he looks slow for a guy whose supposed to be a ridiculous athlete. It's hard to tell I guess.

I don't think any of them are going to give us the production Spencer does, believe it or not. And if signing Spencer we can use #14 on a CB or OLine, it's totally worth it imo.

I agree for this year for sure. That why I said if Spencer walks then your pick at 14 has to be OLB. I guess we could spend big money on Avril and hope he can play SOLB, but this was the first year Avril has ever had double digit sack number and he is playing in a 4-3 next to Suh. So Suh get doubled every down and Avril is one on one, shouldn't he get more than 11 sacks?

The only think we can do is
1. spend big money on Spencer
2. spend big money on Avril
3. use the 14th pick on a SOLB
4. draft a OLB later and play against the odds and hope he can come on and play atleast as good as Spencer day one.

[jnday]

I agree for this year for sure. That why I said if Spencer walks then your pick at 14 has to be OLB. I guess we could spend big money on Avril and hope he can play SOLB, but this was the first year Avril has ever had double digit sack number and he is playing in a 4-3 next to Suh. So Suh get doubled every down and Avril is one on one, shouldn't he get more than 11 sacks?

The only think we can do is
1. spend big money on Spencer
2. spend big money on Avril
3. use the 14th pick on a SOLB
4. draft a OLB later and play against the odds and hope he can come on and play atleast as good as Spencer day one.

Unless an OLB blows up the combine , I don't want to reach just to say that the position was addressed with the 14th pick . I would like another Ware too , but reaching at 14 is not the way to get one .

[rooler]

Unless an OLB blows up the combine , I don't want to reach just to say that the position was addressed with the 14th pick . I would like another Ware too , but reaching at 14 is not the way to get one .

Walters Mock

16 Jets Courtney Upshaw, DE/OLB, Alabama
18 SD San Diego Chargers: Nick Perry, DE/OLB, USC
20 Tennessee Titans: Melvin Ingram, DE, South Carolina
27 Steelers Dont'a Hightower, ILB, Alabama

I think we better grab the one we like the best at 14 no screwing around

you can make a plea for any of those guys at 14 IMO

[tm1119]

Walters Mock

16 Jets Courtney Upshaw, DE/OLB, Alabama
18 SD San Diego Chargers: Nick Perry, DE/OLB, USC
20 Tennessee Titans: Melvin Ingram, DE, South Carolina
27 Steelers Dont'a Hightower, ILB, Alabama

I think we better grab the one we like the best at 14 no screwing around

you can make a plea for any of those guys at 14 IMO

I love Ingram, his size and athleticism is extremely rare. However, after him Im not sure what separates the other 3 from the likes of Vinny Curry, Brandon Lindsey, Ronnell Lewis, Andre Branch, Shea McClellin, or Bruce Irvin who can all be had in the 2nd or 3rd rounds. I guess we are going to have to rely on combine #'s and make the best choice if we do decide to go the route of OLB early on.

[Woods]

I agree for this year for sure. That why I said if Spencer walks then your pick at 14 has to be OLB. I guess we could spend big money on Avril and hope he can play SOLB, but this was the first year Avril has ever had double digit sack number and he is playing in a 4-3 next to Suh. So Suh get doubled every down and Avril is one on one, shouldn't he get more than 11 sacks?

The only think we can do is
1. spend big money on Spencer
2. spend big money on Avril
3. use the 14th pick on a SOLB
4. draft a OLB later and play against the odds and hope he can come on and play atleast as good as Spencer day one.

Do you consider either Upshaw or Ingram as appreciably better than Spencer? I don't mean getting 7 or 8 sacks vs. 6 sacks (like Spencer). But significantly better? Like getting double digit sacks and much more consistent pressure?

From what I can make out from various posters on this forum, neither of those two guys really stick out as THAT much better than Spencer - if they are even projected better than Spencer at all.

But I have to admit, I don't watch college football so I'm just trying to piece together info from draft sites and posters on this forum.

What's your opinion?

[jnday]

Walters Mock

16 Jets Courtney Upshaw, DE/OLB, Alabama
18 SD San Diego Chargers: Nick Perry, DE/OLB, USC
20 Tennessee Titans: Melvin Ingram, DE, South Carolina
27 Steelers Dont'a Hightower, ILB, Alabama

I think we better grab the one we like the best at 14 no screwing around

you can make a plea for any of those guys at 14 IMO

Ingram is the only one that I would consider at 14 and I wonder if he would be an upgrade to Spencer . My first impression is that he won't .

[MichaelWinicki]

Do you consider either Upshaw or Ingram as appreciably better than Spencer? I don't mean getting 7 or 8 sacks vs. 6 sacks (like Spencer). But significantly better? Like getting double digit sacks and much more consistent pressure?

From what I can make out from various posters on this forum, neither of those two guys really stick out as THAT much better than Spencer - if they are even projected better than Spencer at all.

But I have to admit, I don't watch college football so I'm just trying to piece together info from draft sites and posters on this forum.

What's your opinion?

That's how I see it.

I don't think any of these guys is going to blow Spencer's production out of the water... meaning one of these guys pulling down 12 sacks a year and giving the same kind of defense vs the run that Spencer does.

Letting Spencer leave and spending a 1st round pick on a similar player? To me that's the team spinning its wheels.

[tm1119]

That's how I see it.

I don't think any of these guys is going to blow Spencer's production out of the water... meaning one of these guys pulling down 12 sacks a year and giving the same kind of defense vs the run that Spencer does.

Letting Spencer leave and spending a 1st round pick on a similar player? To me that's the team spinning its wheels.

Makes sense to me. However, I would like to take a situational pass rusher to team with Spencer in the 3rd or 4th round. Let Spencer play running downs, and have a pure pass rusher for obvious passing downs.

[jnday]

That's how I see it.

I don't think any of these guys is going to blow Spencer's production out of the water... meaning one of these guys pulling down 12 sacks a year and giving the same kind of defense vs the run that Spencer does.

Letting Spencer leave and spending a 1st round pick on a similar player? To me that's the team spinning its wheels.

I don't mind using a second on a player like V. Curry where need meets value , but we have too many holes to target just one position . Especially when that position is considered weak in this draft . I agree with your thinking on this . You make some good points .

[MichaelWinicki]

Makes sense to me. However, I would like to take a situational pass rusher to team with Spencer in the 3rd or 4th round. Let Spencer play running downs, and have a pure pass rusher for obvious passing downs.

I like that option.

Resign Spencer and get a developmental player part-way through the draft.

[Future]

I love Ingram, his size and athleticism is extremely rare. However, after him Im not sure what separates the other 3 from the likes of Vinny Curry, Brandon Lindsey, Ronnell Lewis, Andre Branch, Shea McClellin, or Bruce Irvin who can all be had in the 2nd or 3rd rounds. I guess we are going to have to rely on combine #'s and make the best choice if we do decide to go the route of OLB early on.
EXACTLY. It's the same with corner back after Kirkpatrick.

That's why we HAVE to get DeCastro if he's available. HAVE to.

I'd be totally fine with your sig.

[supercowboy8]

Unless an OLB blows up the combine , I don't want to reach just to say that the position was addressed with the 14th pick . I would like another Ware too , but reaching at 14 is not the way to get one .

I don't think 14 is to early.
McShay has him 12th overall
CBS sports has him at 14th overall
Wes Bunting has him at 19th overall

I don't think that is much of a reach

Ingram reminds me alot of Terrell Suggs, he can play DT, DE, and OLB. He can get pressure up the middle, around the end, and can drop back into coverage.

[supercowboy8]

Do you consider either Upshaw or Ingram as appreciably better than Spencer? I don't mean getting 7 or 8 sacks vs. 6 sacks (like Spencer). But significantly better? Like getting double digit sacks and much more consistent pressure?

From what I can make out from various posters on this forum, neither of those two guys really stick out as THAT much better than Spencer - if they are even projected better than Spencer at all.

But I have to admit, I don't watch college football so I'm just trying to piece together info from draft sites and posters on this forum.

What's your opinion?

yes I think 3 or 4 years into the NFL both will be better than Spencer. I like Spencer and would bring him back but depends on the money.

Ingram, Upshaw, and Hightower can do it all if you can get a rookie that can come in day one and replace a starter of 5 years, thats a pretty good pick and a big money saver that you can use on other places.

I think Ingram can be Suggs good. The guy has amazing athleticism. Comparing him to Whitney or Curry is just flat out wrong.
SOLB is much more than just sacks, Can you stand up on your feet and flip your hips, can you cover, can you hold your ground and stop the run, and you drop a shoulder and get through a TE and RT to get to the QB. These are things I haven't seen from Curry or Whitney.

Ingram played QB,WR, safety, OLB, DE, DT, running back, and kicker in highschool. He has lined up at DT, DE, and OLB in college playing in the strong SEC and not some weak big 10 or playing Marshals weak schedule.

[supercowboy8]

EXACTLY. It's the same with corner back after Kirkpatrick.

That's why we HAVE to get DeCastro if he's available. HAVE to.

I'd be totally fine with your sig.

I like DeCastro but I can get a day one starter OG in the 3rd, but I can't get a day one starting CB or OLB in the 3rd. If you let Newman and Spencer go then who do replace him with? a 2nd and 3rd round pick.

[supercowboy8]

I like that option.

Resign Spencer and get a developmental player part-way through the draft.

so you pay Spencer 7-9 million a year and use a draft pick on another OLB, why? I mean why not use that pick on another position. Spencer will sign a long term deal so if he is resigned he is here for another 3-4 years.

[supercowboy8]

I love Ingram, his size and athleticism is extremely rare. However, after him Im not sure what separates the other 3 from the likes of Vinny Curry, Brandon Lindsey, Ronnell Lewis, Andre Branch, Shea McClellin, or Bruce Irvin who can all be had in the 2nd or 3rd rounds. I guess we are going to have to rely on combine #'s and make the best choice if we do decide to go the route of OLB early on.

I'm with you, after the top tier of Ingram, Upshaw and Hightower, tier 2 is all abot the same and you won't get much out of them.

Curry and Whitney, have never had to cover, play LB, and non are good vs the run.
Branch is just a pass rusher and struggles vs the run and in coverage.

Lewis looks like a true 4-3 SOLB and not enough speed to rush the passer.

Bruce Irvin and Nick Perry are two I need to see more of. Both are very athletic and good pass rushers. Irvin is hurt by the defense he plays in, a 3-3-5 defense is hard to get sacks and pressure in, which is what Irvin plays in.

Tier 1 early-mid round 1
Melvin Ingram
Courtney Upshaw
Donta Hightower


Tier 2 late round 1-mid 2
Nick Perry
Bruce Irvin

Tier 3 late round 2 -round 3
Vinny Curry
Whitney Mercilus
Andre Branch
Cam Johnson

[jnday]

I like DeCastro but I can get a day one starter OG in the 3rd, but I can't get a day one starting CB or OLB in the 3rd. If you let Newman and Spencer go then who do replace him with? a 2nd and 3rd round pick.
What guard do you see as being a day one starter that can be picked up in the third ? If you are this sure , you need to do this for a living .

[tm1119]

What guard do you see as being a day one starter that can be picked up in the third ? If you are this sure , you need to do this for a living .

Theres only 4 guards in this draft that I see being day 1 starters. DeCastro, Glenn, Osemele, and Zeitler. They will most likely go off of the board in that order with Osemele being on the fringe of getting to us at #45. So that means we could only be looking at Zeitler and having to pull the trigger on him in the 2nd. The obvious thing is to go with the no-brainer of DeCastro in the 1st and take advantage of the depth at CB and address that position in the 2nd or 3rd(boykin, hayward, gilmore, ect.). OLB is a little more dicey, but there is still some talent to be had in the 2nd/3rd(Curry, McClellin, Branch, Irvin, Lindsay)

[Future]

I like DeCastro but I can get a day one starter OG in the 3rd, but I can't get a day one starting CB or OLB in the 3rd. If you let Newman and Spencer go then who do replace him with? a 2nd and 3rd round pick.
Well in a perfect world I'd resign Spencer and play for Carr/Grimes. Then I take DeCastro and the best cb or passrusher available in the 2nd and third.

Those guys will then be depth if they can't start, but there's a chance they can. We don't have the luxury of capable starters at guard.

[jnday]

Theres only 4 guards in this draft that I see being day 1 starters. DeCastro, Glenn, Osemele, and Zeitler. They will most likely go off of the board in that order with Osemele being on the fringe of getting to us at #45. So that means we could only be looking at Zeitler and having to pull the trigger on him in the 2nd. The obvious thing is to go with the no-brainer of DeCastro in the 1st and take advantage of the depth at CB and address that position in the 2nd or 3rd(boykin, hayward, gilmore, ect.). OLB is a little more dicey, but there is still some talent to be had in the 2nd/3rd(Curry, McClellin, Branch, Irvin, Lindsay)

I agree with you on all points . You have the same take on the depth of the of the guard position in this draft as I do .

[supercowboy8]

What guard do you see as being a day one starter that can be picked up in the third ? If you are this sure , you need to do this for a living .

Just depends but I think Zeitler will be there in the 3rd.

Look at last years draft. Moffit and Rackley both starters went in the 3rd and this draft class at OG is better than it was last year. Much deeper.

as of right now 3rd round OGs, some might fall and some might rise in to round 2.
Kevin Zeitler
Amini Silatolu
Senio Kelemete
Joe Looney
Lucas Nix
Brandon Mosley
Andrew Datko

I think will rise into the 3rd are
Antonio McClain
Rishaw Jackson
Don Barclay

I will agree with you that DeCastro is far and away better but this teams defense must be rebuilt and so must the OL, I know. IF DeCastro is there and top player on our board then I'm fine with the pcik, but its going to be hard to find a day one starting CB and SOLB in round 2 and 3.

[supercowboy8]

Theres only 4 guards in this draft that I see being day 1 starters. DeCastro, Glenn, Osemele, and Zeitler. They will most likely go off of the board in that order with Osemele being on the fringe of getting to us at #45. So that means we could only be looking at Zeitler and having to pull the trigger on him in the 2nd. The obvious thing is to go with the no-brainer of DeCastro in the 1st and take advantage of the depth at CB and address that position in the 2nd or 3rd(boykin, hayward, gilmore, ect.). OLB is a little more dicey, but there is still some talent to be had in the 2nd/3rd(Curry, McClellin, Branch, Irvin, Lindsay)

you think Curry, McClellin, Branch, Irvin, and Lindsey can come in and start at SOLB day one.
wow that amazes me, if those guys were day one starters then they would go in round 1 or early round 2. day one starting DEs and OLBs don't go 3rd round very often, you have a far better chance at getting a OG to start day one in round 2 or 3.

[MichaelWinicki]

so you pay Spencer 7-9 million a year and use a draft pick on another OLB, why? I mean why not use that pick on another position. Spencer will sign a long term deal so if he is resigned he is here for another 3-4 years.

I don't see Spencer getting 7 mil a season.

[supercowboy8]

I don't see Spencer getting 7 mil a season.
then you need to look at what OLBs in a 3-4 gets paid.

Calvin Pace got 6 year 42 million, that is 7 a year coming off a year where he got only 6.5 sacks
so yes Spencers agent will want atleast that.

[MichaelWinicki]

then you need to look at what OLBs in a 3-4 gets paid.

Calvin Pace got 6 year 42 million, that is 7 a year coming off a year where he got only 6.5 sacks
so yes Spencers agent will want atleast that.

Oh no question his agent will ask for the moon.

Now if he gets it is another thing. :)

I don't know what the impression is of Spencer from around the league.

[rooler]

Spencer has been hot and cold this year. He'll be a free agent in March. I doubt Dallas will want to pay him the money he's looking for.

I just as soon draft any of theses guys

Dont'a Hightower, ILB, Alabama
Melvin Ingram, DE, South Carolina
Nick Perry, DE/OLB, USC

[MichaelWinicki]

Spencer has been hot and cold this year. He'll be a free agent in March. I doubt Dallas will want to pay him the money he's looking for.

I just as soon draft any of theses guys

Dont'a Hightower, ILB, Alabama
Melvin Ingram, DE, South Carolina
Nick Perry, DE/OLB, USC

The trouble is you're not going to gain any great game day advantage by drafting one of those guys to replace Spencer.

I'd rather overpay Spencer a little, keep him and focus on positions that were very substandard in 2011... Namely corner and guard. DeCastro or one of the top 3 corners would be an instant improvement over what we had in 2011. I don't think any of these guys would be an instant improvement over Spencer, once you figure in the three responsibilities of Spencer's position, namely pass-rush, coverage and run defense.

[rooler]

The trouble is you're not going to gain any great game day advantage by drafting one of those guys to replace Spencer.

I'd rather overpay Spencer a little, keep him and focus on positions that were very substandard in 2011... Namely corner and guard. DeCastro or one of the top 3 corners would be an instant improvement over what we had in 2011. I don't think any of these guys would be an instant improvement over Spencer, once you figure in the three responsibilities of Spencer's position, namely pass-rush, coverage and run defense.

yup your senario is good but I don't see it happening

[tm1119]

you think Curry, McClellin, Branch, Irvin, and Lindsey can come in and start at SOLB day one.
wow that amazes me, if those guys were day one starters then they would go in round 1 or early round 2. day one starting DEs and OLBs don't go 3rd round very often, you have a far better chance at getting a OG to start day one in round 2 or 3.

My point was that those guys are better than the guards that will be available in round 3. Will they be immediate starters? Maybe not. But day 1 contributors is a lot more likely. I've been an advocate of resigning Spencer and drafting a guy to be a situational pass rusher on obvious passing downs. Letting Spencer go and drafting any OLB in the 1st round isn't going to get this team any further.

[supercowboy8]

My point was that those guys are better than the guards that will be available in round 3. Will they be immediate starters? Maybe not. But day 1 contributors is a lot more likely. I've been an advocate of resigning Spencer and drafting a guy to be a situational pass rusher on obvious passing downs. Letting Spencer go and drafting any OLB in the 1st round isn't going to get this team any further.

my point is no they aren't. How many OLB in the 3-4 do you see starting day one as a rookie drafted in the 3rd. Give me a list please. But I can give you a good list og OGs that were drafted in the 3rd that started day one.

If we resign Spencer then no way do we spend a top 3 round pick on a OLB, you don't do that to a position where you just signed a guy long term and big money.

Ingram is far and away better than any of those guys you mentioned.
Ingram is so athletic and powerful I don't understand after all the hate people put on SPencer these past years, now no one wants to replace him or think a 3rd round pick can do it day one. Is this a joke.

We have four major holes to fill this offseason.
SOLB, CB, OG and Center, we need day one starters at all those spots.
If your going to do so via the draft then you have to play the odds.
Odds of getting a day one starting OLB past the first is slim past the 2nd is very slim.
Odds of getting a day one startng CB past the first is very slim, getting one past the 2nd is almost non existence.
Getting a day one starting OG or Center past he first is pretty goo dodds, getting one past the 2nd still very good odds, getting one past the 3rd your odds go down but still not as bad as CB or OLB.

[MichaelWinicki]

my point is no they aren't. How many OLB in the 3-4 do you see starting day one as a rookie drafted in the 3rd. Give me a list please. But I can give you a good list og OGs that were drafted in the 3rd that started day one.

If we resign Spencer then no way do we spend a top 3 round pick on a OLB, you don't do that to a position where you just signed a guy long term and big money.

Ingram is far and away better than any of those guys you mentioned.
Ingram is so athletic and powerful I don't understand after all the hate people put on SPencer these past years, now no one wants to replace him or think a 3rd round pick can do it day one. Is this a joke.

We have four major holes to fill this offseason.
SOLB, CB, OG and Center, we need day one starters at all those spots.
If your going to do so via the draft then you have to play the odds.
Odds of getting a day one starting OLB past the first is slim past the 2nd is very slim.
Odds of getting a day one startng CB past the first is very slim, getting one past the 2nd is almost non existence.
Getting a day one starting OG or Center past he first is pretty goo dodds, getting one past the 2nd still very good odds, getting one past the 3rd your odds go down but still not as bad as CB or OLB.

I guess I don't see Ingram or any of these other OLBers being head & shoulders above Spencer at this point.

Keep Spencer... If the contract demands are realistic.

[supercowboy8]

I guess I don't see Ingram or any of these other OLBers being head & shoulders above Spencer at this point.

Keep Spencer... If the contract demands are realistic.

and if the contract demands aren't then what do you do, what is releastic for you. For me anything over 4.5 a year is to much. You also have to look at other FAs you can sign with that money. Do you want Carl Nicks, a CB, ILB, FS, or any player for the DL. If you sign Spencer most liekly it won't be for 4.5 a year and will be closer to 7 a year.

I think Ingram is a beast that can do anything. He will drop about 10 pounds and get ready for the combine and blow it away. They guy can blitz up the middle, around the edge, hold his goruond vs the run and drop back into coverage with ease. The guy is smart, a leader, and a team captain all things Garrett likes in a player.
Also he can line up at DE, DT, and OLB which gives Ryan a player with versitilty which he likes in a player.

[tm1119]

my point is no they aren't. How many OLB in the 3-4 do you see starting day one as a rookie drafted in the 3rd. Give me a list please. But I can give you a good list og OGs that were drafted in the 3rd that started day one.

If we resign Spencer then no way do we spend a top 3 round pick on a OLB, you don't do that to a position where you just signed a guy long term and big money.

Ingram is far and away better than any of those guys you mentioned.
Ingram is so athletic and powerful I don't understand after all the hate people put on SPencer these past years, now no one wants to replace him or think a 3rd round pick can do it day one. Is this a joke.

We have four major holes to fill this offseason.
SOLB, CB, OG and Center, we need day one starters at all those spots.
If your going to do so via the draft then you have to play the odds.
Odds of getting a day one starting OLB past the first is slim past the 2nd is very slim.
Odds of getting a day one startng CB past the first is very slim, getting one past the 2nd is almost non existence.
Getting a day one starting OG or Center past he first is pretty goo dodds, getting one past the 2nd still very good odds, getting one past the 3rd your odds go down but still not as bad as CB or OLB.

Just to name a few that came to mind without doing a ton of research....
James Harrison- Undrafted
Lamarr Woodley- 2nd round #46
Cameron Wake- undrafted
Shaun Phillips- Round 4 #98
Joey Porter- 3rd round #73
Ahmad Brooks- 3rd round supplemental

Either way this logic is completely flawed. Just because there were previously guards who were drafted in the 3rd round that did well doesnt mean we should just wait until the 3rd round to draft 1. That logic will run your franchise into the ground quickly.

[Woods]

and if the contract demands aren't then what do you do, what is releastic for you. For me anything over 4.5 a year is to much. You also have to look at other FAs you can sign with that money. Do you want Carl Nicks, a CB, ILB, FS, or any player for the DL. If you sign Spencer most liekly it won't be for 4.5 a year and will be closer to 7 a year.

I think Ingram is a beast that can do anything. He will drop about 10 pounds and get ready for the combine and blow it away. They guy can blitz up the middle, around the edge, hold his goruond vs the run and drop back into coverage with ease. The guy is smart, a leader, and a team captain all things Garrett likes in a player.
Also he can line up at DE, DT, and OLB which gives Ryan a player with versitilty which he likes in a player.

If Spencer isn't re-signed for whatever reason, I think we almost have to go OLB in Round 1.

Unless there is someone else RR really covets in FA. But otherwise, we're pretty much forced to draft an OLB really high.

[jnday]

If Spencer isn't re-signed for whatever reason, I think we almost have to go OLB in Round 1.

Unless there is someone else RR really covets in FA. But otherwise, we're pretty much forced to draft an OLB really high.
The quickest way to get a bust is to feel that you are forced into picking one certain player or position . The history of the draft process has proved this time and time again .

[supercowboy8]

Just to name a few that came to mind without doing a ton of research....
James Harrison- Undrafted
Lamarr Woodley- 2nd round #46
Cameron Wake- undrafted
Shaun Phillips- Round 4 #98
Joey Porter- 3rd round #73
Ahmad Brooks- 3rd round supplemental

Either way this logic is completely flawed. Just because there were previously guards who were drafted in the 3rd round that did well doesnt mean we should just wait until the 3rd round to draft 1. That logic will run your franchise into the ground quickly.

none were starters day one, none. I said give me a list of OLBs that were starters day one. We don't have time to let a guy develop, who will play until that guy is ready.

[MichaelWinicki]

Unless there is someone else RR really covets in FA. But otherwise, we're pretty much forced to draft an OLB really high.

Which would incredibly suck in my opinion.

You end up with the same team as last year with your two weakest positions, G and CB still flawed.

[supercowboy8]

James Harrison- was released two times and put on practice squad. brought back and then became a sstarter in 2007, 3 years after he was picked up be Pitt.
Lamarr Woodley- 2nd round #46; wasn't a starter till year 2
Cameron Wake- undrafted, was in canada football league before coming to miami
Shaun Phillips- Round 4 #98; drafted in 2004 but wasnt a full time starter till 2006 but played alot in 2005, was only a pass rusher his rookie year
Joey Porter- 3rd round #73 was a full time starter till his 2nd year
Ahmad Brooks- 3rd round supplemental played 11 games his rookie year never started and only played in 2 his 2nd year then released and went to san fran.

give me a list of guys that start day one drafted in the 3rd round or later please

[tm1119]

none were starters day one, none. I said give me a list of OLBs that were starters day one. We don't have time to let a guy develop, who will play until that guy is ready.

Why? Whether you want to admit it or not Spencer is still a productive player. And we still have the option to bring him back. Plus I'd much rather start Victor Butler next year than run Newman out there everyday or have Nagy/Holland/whatever garbage we threw out at guard this year. Personally I think youre overvaluing our need for an OLB, but I guess we'll agree to disagree because I dont feel like continuing this argument.

[supercowboy8]

Why? Whether you want to admit it or not Spencer is still a productive player. And we still have the option to bring him back. Plus I'd much rather start Victor Butler next year than run Newman out there everyday or have Nagy/Holland/whatever garbage we threw out at guard this year. Personally I think youre overvaluing our need for an OLB, but I guess we'll agree to disagree because I dont feel like continuing this argument.

you make me laugh stating that we have Butler. My god could you imagine McCoy running at Butler next year, 300 yards for each game for McCoy next year if that happens.

I would like to bring Spencer back, I have fought so hard and one of the only ones on here that wants to bring him back but I'm not down for bringing him back for 7 million a year. See Calvin Pace contract if you don't think SPencer can't get that.

[Double Trouble]

The problem is that Spencer is substandard. He has the best pure passrusher in the NFL opposite him, and he rarely takes advantage of that. The frustrating thing is he has the ability, but rarely displays it. Giving him a deal of any sort just eats more cap space and does nothing to help the pass rush.

A lot of other 34 LOLBs aren't like Spencer. He rushes the passer a lot. Someone posted stats back several weeks ago that Spencer rushes 75% of the time on pass plays. A lot of other LBs don't do that.

The more I think about it, the guy I like most is Hightower. He's a great athlete. He doesn't have huge sack stats, but he also didn't play OLB or DE full time. I have no doubt that be it as an OLB or ILB, the guy could help the D tremendously. I like both the Alabama guys, because they're smart, physical, and both have played in the 3-4. I don't think either is going to be a bust, but I think Hightower has the athleticism to be special.

With Ingram, he doesn't have the greatest quickness, but we're drafting 14th, not 4th. Almost every player we look at is going to have some flaws. Greg Ellis didn't have great quickness either and yet he was vastly superior to Spencer as a passrusher.

Whether it's this draft, free agency, or next year's draft, Dallas desperately needs another pass rusher, and Spencer isn't it. Giving him a new contract would be yet another gigantic waste of Jones' $$$ and cap room.

[supercowboy8]

The problem is that Spencer is substandard. He has the best pure passrusher in the NFL opposite him, and he rarely takes advantage of that. The frustrating thing is he has the ability, but rarely displays it. Giving him a deal of any sort just eats more cap space and does nothing to help the pass rush.

A lot of other 34 LOLBs aren't like Spencer. He rushes the passer a lot. Someone posted stats back several weeks ago that Spencer rushes 75% of the time on pass plays. A lot of other LBs don't do that.

The more I think about it, the guy I like most is Hightower. He's a great athlete. He doesn't have huge sack stats, but he also didn't play OLB or DE full time. I have no doubt that be it as an OLB or ILB, the guy could help the D tremendously. I like both the Alabama guys, because they're smart, physical, and both have played in the 3-4. I don't think either is going to be a bust, but I think Hightower has the athleticism to be special.

With Ingram, he doesn't have the greatest quickness, but we're drafting 14th, not 4th. Almost every player we look at is going to have some flaws. Greg Ellis didn't have great quickness either and yet he was vastly superior to Spencer as a passrusher.

Whether it's this draft, free agency, or next year's draft, Dallas desperately needs another pass rusher, and Spencer isn't it. Giving him a new contract would be yet another gigantic waste of Jones' $$$ and cap room.

I agree with you, I like HIghtower but he too will be a first round pick, I think after his bowl game, then I;m sure he will perform well at the senior bowl and combine he will be a first round pick.

Ingram has great burst and can close a gap quickley. Have you seen him play, he can cover 3 ro 4 yards in a heart beat. His problem is off the snap but I think that can be fixed.

[rocyaice]

That would mean we would have to resign Spencer $$$ so you have no reason to pick Ingram in the first round. Also where can three OLBs play?

Giants have had no problem playing 3 DE's in Osi, JPP and Tuck. I'd actually prefer the Cowboys sign Spencer and still get another guy in here to where when Spencer or Ware take a seat we don't miss a beat.