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Portland Fanatic
03-31-2005, 03:06 PM
Curious to your opinions if we went Hawthorne at #20?

Here's what I think...I think he's the most underrated player in this draft...I wathced him play about 5 games over the last two years (yes on TV), and spent the majority of the games watching him and rewinding and watching him more.... this kid is double teamed every single play and still consistantly moves the pocket into the backfield. He was solid at the senior bowl...there he was getting double teamed and STILL moving the pocket...I just think he's a dang ox that is underrated and knows how to play the game.

I don't think there is any way he makes it past the Jets with #26...if that long, and no way does he get passed the Browns with the 34th pic...Browns going to 3-4 with Crennell.

Merriman at #11
Hawthorne at #20
Pool or Bullocks at #42

Hawthorne at 6'3 3/8...321 rotating with both Fergi and Glover. Hawthorne and Fergi on run downs...we finally would have the beef and athletic DT's we've wanted since Leon Lett. Imagine if Glover or Fergi went down...here we go again with no beef in the middle...I just think it is a very safe and smart pic. He will some day start when Glover leaves...or who knows beats one of them out.
junk
03-31-2005, 03:08 PM
You don't have to convince me, I like what I have seen of Hawthorne. He isn't a dynamic pass rusher, more of a guy in the Ferguson mold.

The knock on him is that he wears down easily and takes some plays off.

I would have no issue taking him at #20 and he would be a steal in 2.
Sabu1
03-31-2005, 03:10 PM
The more 300 pound plus DTs we accumulate, the better I say. I would trade down from 20 and take him however.
Outlaw Heroes
03-31-2005, 03:14 PM
Curious to your opinions if we went Hawthorne at #20?...I just think it is a very safe and smart pic. He will some day start when Glover leaves...or who knows beats one of them out.

Wouldn't like him at 20, partly because I think he can be had at 42. I had much higher expectations for the guy heading into last season and thought he would cement his place in the top ten. Didn't work out that way, of course, and I think at this point I see him more as a two-gap guy than a one-gap guy, whereas before I thought he could do both. It's only because he has the athleticism to suggest that he can one day develope into a one-gap guy as well that I'd even think about him at 42. Strictly two-gap guys can be had at better value in the later rounds (say, Albert Means in the 5th).
Portland Fanatic
03-31-2005, 03:15 PM
You don't have to convince me, I like what I have seen of Hawthorne. He isn't a dynamic pass rusher, more of a guy in the Ferguson mold.

The knock on him is that he wears down easily and takes some plays off.

I would have no issue taking him at #20 and he would be a steal in 2.

That is the knock on him...however when I wathced him I did not see that, but then again...I only watched a few games.

I also forgot to mention...he is athletic enough to play either NT or DE in 3-4...better NT, but you gotta have two NT's. Willie Blade is the only other legit NT...and well he tore his achillis...thin he's done. Unless BP plans on grabbing someone like Pouha, Hawthorne must be considered.
Portland Fanatic
03-31-2005, 03:18 PM
Wouldn't like him at 20, partly because I think he can be had at 42. I had much higher expectations for the guy heading into last season and thought he would cement his place in the top ten. Didn't work out that way, of course, and I think at this point I see him more as a two-gap guy than a one-gap guy, whereas before I thought he could do both. It's only because he has the athleticism to suggest that he can one day develope into a one-gap guy as well that I'd even think about him at 42. Strictly two-gap guys can be had at better value in the later rounds (say, Albert Means in the 5th).

No offense, but Albert Means is not even in the same ball park of talent as Hawthorne...really not even close. I's look at guys like Pouha and Castillo before Means...
FolsomCowboy
03-31-2005, 03:21 PM
I want my first rd draft picks to start period
Natedawg44
03-31-2005, 03:27 PM
I want my first rd draft picks to start period
hard to draft a guy in the first that has no chance of cracking the starting line up year one, with all of the holes we have.
Portland Fanatic
03-31-2005, 03:34 PM
hard to draft a guy in the first that has no chance of cracking the starting line up year one, with all of the holes we have.

We simple can not ignore the DT's...both Fergi and Glover are 30. This kid is very talented and will be a starter for us at some point. BP uses rotations with DT's and DE's...you need one guy that can be a good rotation guy for both, he can play both. He will also get 30% of the snaps or more...

Other then a DE or safety...what other position will start? Maybe DJ with the #11...DT will play a lot and is critical trench play to control the LOS...
Outlaw Heroes
03-31-2005, 03:36 PM
No offense, but Albert Means is not even in the same ball park of talent as Hawthorne...really not even close. I's look at guys like Pouha and Castillo before Means...


I didn't say he was. All I said is that, if all we're getting is a two-gap tackle, we can get that in the later rounds. Castillo is another guy with 2nd round talent. As for Pouha, I'd say he and Means are about equal in talent, and their draft positions will reflect that.
btcutter
03-31-2005, 03:44 PM
You don't have to convince me, I like what I have seen of Hawthorne. He isn't a dynamic pass rusher, more of a guy in the Ferguson mold.

The knock on him is that he wears down easily and takes some plays off.

I would have no issue taking him at #20 and he would be a steal in 2.

Ferguson mode? he was drafted in the 7th. I don't really want to use a pick to hold the line. I want someone that will collape the middle and flush the QB out. The 20th pick better make some impact.
GoingPostal
03-31-2005, 03:45 PM
I'm really skeptical on both Hawthorn and James . . .

I don't understand why, if they are both so good, wasn't their defensive line not as dominant as it should have been . . .
Portland Fanatic
03-31-2005, 03:49 PM
I'm really skeptical on both Hawthorn and James . . .

I don't understand why, if they are both so good, wasn't their defensive line not as dominant as it should have been . . .

Without looking at stats...I believe the Wisc D was one of the top against run D...Hwawthorne is a huge reason why. Also, the reason why James had such a good sr year...IMO.
Rack Bauer
03-31-2005, 03:49 PM
I would have no issue taking him at #20 and he would be a steal in 2.


Yeah I have a feeling he's gonna drop like Randy Starks did last year. Don't know why... just a gut feeling.
Portland Fanatic
03-31-2005, 03:54 PM
Yeah I have a feeling he's gonna drop like Randy Starks did last year. Don't know why... just a gut feeling.

Past the Jets at #26, and Browns at #34? Never know, but I'd be shocked.
GoingPostal
03-31-2005, 03:55 PM
Yeah I have a feeling he's gonna drop like Randy Starks did last year. Don't know why... just a gut feeling.

Funny you mention Randy Starks, Rack . . .

He was a guy that a lot of mocks had us taking at #20 last year . . . and he fell all the way into the 3rd and was almost unheard of his rookie year . . .
InmanRoshi
03-31-2005, 03:57 PM
Without looking at stats...I believe the Wisc D was one of the top against run D...Hwawthorne is a huge reason why. Also, the reason why James had such a good sr year...IMO.

They finished in the Top 10 in yards and points allowed.
Outlaw Heroes
03-31-2005, 03:57 PM
Past the Jets at #26, and Browns at #34? Never know, but I'd be shocked.

The Jets have other holes to fill too, like RT. J. Brown at 26 strikes me as better value than Hawthorne. As for the Browns, I'd expect them to go LB at #34, though DT is also a possibility.
Portland Fanatic
03-31-2005, 03:59 PM
They finished in the Top 10 in yards and points allowed.

Thanks...I knew they were pretty stout.
ykc
03-31-2005, 04:00 PM
I have feeling that parcells will trade pick#20 to a team that will land us a top 10 pick in next year draft + their second or third this year. Next year crop of DT is impressive compared to this year and we would be in good shape if we had 2 #1 picks again next year
Portland Fanatic
03-31-2005, 04:01 PM
The Jets have other holes to fill too, like RT. J. Brown at 26 strikes me as better value than Hawthorne. As for the Browns, I'd expect them to go LB at #34, though DT is also a possibility.

They also need a good CB, but look at their track record at taking Dlineman...they see that as priority, especially with Fergi gone now.
Portland Fanatic
03-31-2005, 04:02 PM
I have feeling that parcells will trade pick#20 to a team that will land us a top 10 pick in next year draft + their second or third this year. Next year crop of DT is impressive compared to this year and we would be in good shape if we had 2 #1 picks again next year

Now that I can agree with......next years crop is very good and deep.
Chocolate Lab
03-31-2005, 04:05 PM
Yeah I have a feeling he's gonna drop like Randy Starks did last year. Don't know why... just a gut feeling.
I agree... His stock already seems like it's fallen a lot... Seems like there were some negative comments about his workout, weren't there?

I don't know, but Hawthorne at this time last year was said to be a top-5 pick by some writers... What happened to him? He's just not flashy enough? (I've never seen the guy at all except for the Senior Bowl.)
InmanRoshi
03-31-2005, 04:18 PM
I agree... His stock already seems like it's fallen a lot... Seems like there were some negative comments about his workout, weren't there?

I don't know, but Hawthorne at this time last year was said to be a top-5 pick by some writers... What happened to him? He's just not flashy enough? (I've never seen the guy at all except for the Senior Bowl.)

Corey Webster is another guy who was supposed to have been a Top 10 pick at this time last year who's fallen into the 2nd round after a poor senior season.
Chocolate Lab
03-31-2005, 04:30 PM
Corey Webster is another guy who was supposed to have been a Top 10 pick at this time last year who's fallen into the 2nd round after a poor senior season.
True... It happens every year, sometimes legitimately, sometimes not. Hasn't Webster's speed been exposed as being pretty poor for a corner?

And hasn't it been true the last several years that good DTs have had worse final seasons than previous ones, as so much attention is paid to them based on what they've done earlier? I don't have the stats to back that up in front of me, but I thought that had been the case with several players the last few years.

Especially when you're talking about interior run stuffers. Those guys are like middle linebackers -- everyone knows they're important, but they just aren't a glamour position at draft time. Look at Wilfork last year. He was the same way, even though nothing was wrong with him.
Rack Bauer
03-31-2005, 04:34 PM
He was a guy that a lot of mocks had us taking at #20 last year . . . and he fell all the way into the 3rd and was almost unheard of his rookie year .


Well he did have 4.5 sacks for the Titans last year (in 14 games). That's not terrible for a DT. Pretty solid actually. I have no idea how well he held up against the run though.
InmanRoshi
03-31-2005, 04:42 PM
True... It happens every year, sometimes legitimately, sometimes not. Hasn't Webster's speed been exposed as being pretty poor for a corner?

And hasn't it been true the last several years that good DTs have had worse final seasons than previous ones, as so much attention is paid to them based on what they've done earlier? I don't have the stats to back that up in front of me, but I thought that had been the case with several players the last few years.

Especially when you're talking about interior run stuffers. Those guys are like middle linebackers -- everyone knows they're important, but they just aren't a glamour position at draft time. Look at Wilfork last year. He was the same way, even though nothing was wrong with him.

Wolfolk fell, and other guys like Jonathon Sullivan and Gerrard Warren have been reached for. I think defensive tackle is still a pretty high profile pick for the draft.

As far as pre-year hype, I question how many people have really broke down these players and studied them and how many are just regurgitating what they've heard from other sites as "player's to watch". I watched several Wisconsin games in 2003 because I wanted to watch Lee Evans, and the first time I had ever heard of Hawthorne was when I saw him on a early draft list.
FolsomCowboy
03-31-2005, 04:48 PM
We simple can not ignore the DT's...both Fergi and Glover are 30. This kid is very talented and will be a starter for us at some point. BP uses rotations with DT's and DE's...you need one guy that can be a good rotation guy for both, he can play both. He will also get 30% of the snaps or more...

Other then a DE or safety...what other position will start? Maybe DJ with the #11...DT will play a lot and is critical trench play to control the LOS...

RT possibly RG, 2 LB positions
Bobo
03-31-2005, 04:48 PM
Starks was very good against the run, the Titans d-line coach was very happy with him, they thought he was a steal in the 3rd. He plays with good leverage and is maybe the strongest guy on the team.....at the age of 20. He lead rookie DT's in sacks last year and only started 8 games. I'll take that "almost unheard of" player every day of the week. (it's not like the Titans get a lot of press coverage anyway)

If Hawthorne is as good, I think he'd be easily worth the 2nd round pick. If Fergi hadn't have been picked up, I'd say #20 even....but it's kinda hard to get another DT when we'll have two very good ones, even if they are older.

A lot still depends on what D we're running....and who knows yet?
Outlaw Heroes
03-31-2005, 04:52 PM
I watched several Wisconsin games in 2003 because I wanted to watch Lee Evans, and the first time I had ever heard of Hawthorne was when I saw him on a early draft list.

Hawthorne was All Big-Ten in 2003. He had 75 tackles with 20 for loss. This guy was not a secret.
Portland Fanatic
03-31-2005, 05:05 PM
RT possibly RG, 2 LB positions

We will not draft RT early...don't get your hopes up.

Having a dominant Dline will make Dat, Singleton, and James that much better...don't get me wrong we need to get LB's, but you can find some nice LB's in the 4th and 5th this year...not many NT that consistanly demand double teams...

BP likes Alfred Fincher from Conn...he will be a 4th or 5th rounder...more depth at LB then DT this year.
MiStar
03-31-2005, 05:23 PM
I'm a huge Hawthorne fan. I'm not really sure why he isn't more highly thought of. He is the MOST disruptive defensive lineman in the draft. The biggest knock on him is his lack lack of athletisicm.
Rack Bauer
03-31-2005, 05:37 PM
He is the MOST disruptive defensive lineman in the draft.


What?! I like Hawthorne, but no way in hell is he the most disruptive DL in the draft.
ghst187
03-31-2005, 06:33 PM
I watched 3 or 4 Wisc games this past season including the bowl game against UGA to specifically watch Hawthorn and James. I really didn't notice either of them. If this draft wasn't so grotesquely thin at DT, I'd put money on Hawth falling to the second. The only way I take James is if I don't have a lot of needs, have picks to spare, and feel like gambling cuz this kid is boom or bust.
If I were Hawth or James I would've been embarrassed playing against UGA and seeing the havoc Pollack raised on nearly every play while they did little and nothing. If you wants stats (like some of you love) here they are:
Pollack: 4 tackles plus 3 sacks, 1 FF, and completely disruptive on nearly every play despite constant double teams
James: 2 tackles and not often double-teamed
big dog cowboy
03-31-2005, 06:49 PM
What?! I like Hawthorne, but no way in hell is he the most disruptive DL in the draft.
That was a little bit of an overstatement I would agree.
MiStar
03-31-2005, 07:02 PM
I really did mean "MOST disruptive." He collapses the pocket more consistantly than anyone else that I've seen this year in college football. I cannot think of another player who penetrates the backfield as well as Hawthorne does. Pollack, James, and Roth are few other players who I thought were very disruptive. I haven't seen Johnson from Florida State play, but I've seen most of the other big name lineman play.
hendog
03-31-2005, 07:40 PM
Yeah I have a feeling he's gonna drop like Randy Starks did last year. Don't know why... just a gut feeling.


I was really hoping we would get Starks w/our 2nd last year that we spent on Rogers.
AsthmaField
03-31-2005, 08:44 PM
As far as being disruptive... I thin Travis Johnson is more disruptive. He's a really quick DT like Glover and he's constantly in the backfield.

JMO.
ghettogandhi
03-31-2005, 08:49 PM
Funny you mention Randy Starks, Rack . . .

He was a guy that a lot of mocks had us taking at #20 last year . . . and he fell all the way into the 3rd and was almost unheard of his rookie year . . .

if Im not mistaken he played alot the 2nd half of the season and ended up with 4.5 sacks.-thats pretty good for a part time starter rookie

still cant figure out why he didnt go in round 2 -only time will tell
SALADIN
03-31-2005, 09:43 PM
Curious to your opinions if we went Hawthorne at #20?

Here's what I think...I think he's the most underrated player in this draft...I wathced him play about 5 games over the last two years (yes on TV), and spent the majority of the games watching him and rewinding and watching him more.... this kid is double teamed every single play and still consistantly moves the pocket into the backfield. He was solid at the senior bowl...there he was getting double teamed and STILL moving the pocket...I just think he's a dang ox that is underrated and knows how to play the game.

I don't think there is any way he makes it past the Jets with #26...if that long, and no way does he get passed the Browns with the 34th pic...Browns going to 3-4 with Crennell.

Merriman at #11
Hawthorne at #20
Pool or Bullocks at #42

Hawthorne at 6'3 3/8...321 rotating with both Fergi and Glover. Hawthorne and Fergi on run downs...we finally would have the beef and athletic DT's we've wanted since Leon Lett. Imagine if Glover or Fergi went down...here we go again with no beef in the middle...I just think it is a very safe and smart pic. He will some day start when Glover leaves...or who knows beats one of them out.

I like those picks Port. I wouldn't mind seeing a WR taken early but the truth is that any WR taken in this draft will be at best the Cowboys 3rd WR for the next year or two if Key and Glenn stay healthy.

DE's DT's LB's and S's picked early are more likely to start and contribute right away.
Natedawg44
03-31-2005, 10:18 PM
We simple can not ignore the DT's...both Fergi and Glover are 30. This kid is very talented and will be a starter for us at some point. BP uses rotations with DT's and DE's...you need one guy that can be a good rotation guy for both, he can play both. He will also get 30% of the snaps or more...

Other then a DE or safety...what other position will start? Maybe DJ with the #11...DT will play a lot and is critical trench play to control the LOS...
You answered your own question LB is one. OT is another Jamal Brown could start day one. I think he might address DT on the 2nd day. He gave Ferguson a whole lot of money, Glover is very productive. Hes also enamored with Carson. Parcells has went with a win now approach and I think you will see that reflected in the draft. I also think WR will be pushed to the back burner as well. I don't think there is a DT in this draft has a chance of being a starter save injury for at least the next couple of years. If Parcells is here that long.
Natedawg44
03-31-2005, 10:21 PM
We will not draft RT early...don't get your hopes up.
Cool now we know. We will be looking for you in your seat next to Jerry in the warroom.
playit12
03-31-2005, 10:51 PM
By the way I wouldn't confuse "start" with contribute. Parcells likes to rotate a lot of D linemen and with the age of our two DTs I think you can expect them to be 2 down players assuming anyone decent is available to put in. Getting someone as good as Hawthorne would make our whole D line better by letting us rest Glover and Fergi more often. Besides we are gonig to need another wide body run stopper if we decide to move to the 3-4. Might as well get one now if he can contribute in the 4-3 too.

Personally I think he slipped this year because his numbers weren't flashy and because the speed rusher is all the rage this year. Neither of those facts is a knock on him. I think he goes in the top 25.
Portland Fanatic
03-31-2005, 11:02 PM
Cool now we know. We will be looking for you in your seat next to Jerry in the warroom.

I'll waive at the camera....
Natedawg44
03-31-2005, 11:03 PM
good stuff LMAO
hockix
04-01-2005, 08:13 AM
I was really hoping we would get Starks w/our 2nd last year that we spent on Rogers.

I felt the same.
I couldn't believe we drafted Rogers over Starks.