NE Cheats Again on Cundiff Miss?

[Teague31]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/why-billy-cundiff-rushed-fateful-field-goal-try-013101618.html

Interesting...

[Risen Star]

That's a real stretch.

[Yeagermeister]

and nothing will happen to them

[RoyTheHammer]

This is a joke. Moving on..

[jimmy40]

Must have confused Belichick too, he looked confused after the kick, must have thought it was third down or maybe that was part of the plan, Yeah that's it.

[casmith07]

Make the freaking kick.

[tyke1doe]

Make the freaking kick.

Ditto.

[kristie]

and nothing will happen to them

of course.

[Cowboys&LakersFan]

Cundiff is a proven choker. There's a reason he was cut by us. He's not very good. Rushed or not he still would've missed IMO.

[Heisenberg]

Seems like quite a stretch.

Plus, didn't Baltimore have a timeout left? If all hell was breaking loose on the sideline, why not call a timeout and get it sorted out?

[StylisticS]

Nice reach.
http://www.visualphotos.com/photo/2x2381951/Woman_reaching_toward_sky_low_angle_view_FAA004000 287.jpg

[Cowboys&LakersFan]

Seems like quite a stretch.

Plus, didn't Baltimore have a timeout left? If all hell was breaking loose on the sideline, why not call a timeout and get it sorted out?

So I guess Garrett isn't the only coach who's bad at clock management. :rolleyes:

[joseephuss]

It is dumb to have a 4 down routine at the end of a half or game. There is no guarantee that you will be kicking the ball on 4th down in that situation. Because of the clock you could be kicking on 1st, 2nd or 3rd down. I not only think this is a stretch, but just false.

Football is a game of inches. This has been proven time and again. There was a bad snap and a not so perfect hold. An inch off on the hold can make a difference. Still that only a part in the miss. The biggest factor was what is between Cundiff's ears.

[BraveHeartFan]

Wow is this ever a reach.


Quite frankly I don't even care if they did have the wrong down on the scoreboard.

Are you at the game Cundiff? Are any of the other people around you there? If you don't know the down of a critical drive in a huge game, without a scoreboard telling you what down it is, then you've got problems in the first place.


This is the dumbest reason yet that i've seen for making an excuse for this guy failing to do his job.

[REDVOLUTION]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/why-billy-cundiff-rushed-fateful-field-goal-try-013101618.html

Interesting...




Psychomalogically.... this thing has teeth























:laugh2:

[Hoofbite]

It is dumb to have a 4 down routine at the end of a half or game. There is no guarantee that you will be kicking the ball on 4th down in that situation. Because of the clock you could be kicking on 1st, 2nd or 3rd down. I not only think this is a stretch, but just false.

Football is a game of inches. This has been proven time and again. There was a bad snap and a not so perfect hold. An inch off on the hold can make a difference. Still that only a part in the miss. The biggest factor was what is between Cundiff's ears.

Yeah, what happens when a pass from outside FG puts the team into FG range and he has to kick on 1st down to win the game?

Guess he couldn't even get through his 1st down routine.

And is he so dead set into his routine he doesn't see anything going on around him?

[Rogah]

Yeah. In the middle of the chaos that was the final minute of that game, I'm sure Bill Belichick phoned up to the scoreboard operator and told him to mess up the down-and-distance with the hope that the opposing kicker would have his head in his arse and not realize what down it really was.

[ROUSH8692]

Like Cundiff cant look at the field and see what down it is?

[BraveHeartFan]

Like Cundiff cant look at the field and see what down it is?


Apparently that's not allowed or something? lol

[FootballFan1]

It is the little things in games that can make a difference. Just the little things. And we saw that twice this past weekend.

Take SF, the basics, hold on to the darn ball. Number one, before anything. Really wanted them to win, bummer. And with the Ravens, take your time, and concentrate on making the field goal. And they both paid the ultimate price for sloppy play.

One of the things that makes Belichick a good coach is what is called "situational" football. He stresses it over and over again. Here are the things that can come up in a game, and here is what you are supposed to do. Drums it in to the point of ridiculous - but it pays off. Get the fundamentals down first, the rest will come. But don't beat yourself. And that is what happened with both losing teams. They forgot the fundamentals. With the parity in the league, those little things can make a difference in the game.

I think the situation with the 49ers was worse than the Ravens. Yes, a field goal kicker can miss, and that is on him. But a fumble on a kickoff return when the game is on the line??? Man, if that is not fundamental, I don't know what is. Hang on to the darn ball. One of the things Belichick does is - you screw up, you sit down. He let Woodhead play after the fumble, but he knows more about the guy than I do - normally he would let that player sit out - maybe even for a few games.

I think one the reasons that Ocho is never going to make it with the Pats is that he wants to dictate the play. Not going to happen. It is dictated to him, and if you cannot fit in, then sit down. Don't just run down the field and expect the QB to find you. You go where you are supposed to be. Just a bad fit with that guy. Moss was a different story. That guy was so intelligent as a football player both him and Brady clicked. They both knew where they were supposed to be. Moss to me is one of the greatest WR's that ever played the game. One seriously amazing football player.

So SF and the Ravens can whine all they want. You forgot the fundamentals and you paid the price for it. Get over it, and get better. Sometimes you can do more with less if you don't make the kind of mistakes where you beat yourself. The better team does not always win.

[joseephuss]

I disagree. A fumble or muffed punt is not a little thing. That is a big thing.

It is funny that you are on them for lack of fundamentals. One of the reasons the 49ers were even in the position they were in this year was because they did pay attention to fundamental football. They did a lot of the fundamentals very well this season.

And it isn't as if it is a good comparison. Belichick has been in New England for years. Harbaugh is just in his first year with the 49ers. You think the Patriots had all the fundamentals down in Belichick's first season?

The 49ers didn't lose because of a lack of fundamentals or even because of a muffed punt. They lost because they just aren't talented enough on offense. The muffed punt hurt, but a better offense would have kept them out of that position. A better offense would have scored more points in regulation.

[Yakuza Rich]

I would think the Pats won because they had Tom Brady and the Niners had Alex Smith. Tough to win games when your QB can't convert on 3rd down.

Given the SpyGate scandal, the Patriots deserve the criticism because they've earned it. It's like Bernie Madoff getting out of prison and then bouncing a check. Tough to say 'it's no big deal.' Both are proven crooks and liars and should be treated as such.






YR

[FootballFan1]

I disagree. A fumble or muffed punt is not a little thing. That is a big thing.

It is funny that you are on them for lack of fundamentals. One of the reasons the 49ers were even in the position they were in this year was because they did pay attention to fundamental football. They did a lot of the fundamentals very well this season.

And it isn't as if it is a good comparison. Belichick has been in New England for years. Harbaugh is just in his first year with the 49ers. You think the Patriots had all the fundamentals down in Belichick's first season?

The 49ers didn't lose because of a lack of fundamentals or even because of a muffed punt. They lost because they just aren't talented enough on offense. The muffed punt hurt, but a better offense would have kept them out of that position. A better offense would have scored more points in regulation.

Huh??? A fumble with the game on the line. That is fundamental football. Mistakes you should not make. And you misinterpreted - or misstated my statement, it certainly wasn't a little thing that he fumbled, it cost them the game. But it is the little things like paying attention to those kinds of details that can turn a game around. So yes, IT IS the little things that count. But it certainly wasn't a little thing that he fumbled.

And whether Alex Smith is the right guy or not -- he did not impress me -- is not the point. They were in the game, but a fumble like that lost the game for them.

[FootballFan1]

I would think the Pats won because they had Tom Brady and the Niners had Alex Smith. Tough to win games when your QB can't convert on 3rd down.

Given the SpyGate scandal, the Patriots deserve the criticism because they've earned it. It's like Bernie Madoff getting out of prison and then bouncing a check. Tough to say 'it's no big deal.' Both are proven crooks and liars and should be treated as such.


YR

Blah, blah and zzzzzzzzzz. The Pats deserve criticism for what???

Oh wait, it wasn't even a Raven player making that kick. That must be it.

Sorry, but ridiculous statements deserve like responses.

[AbeBeta]

There have been a ton of comments from players that they thought they'd gotten a first down on the Boldin fumble - that part is totally plausible. But NE's clock keeper doing that intentionally? Come on.

BTW - Cundiff has a specific routine. Coaches know kickers are weird and need to do all kinds of mental crap before the kick, so why wouldn't the coaching staff call a timeout to let him get it all right?

[WV Cowboy]

BTW - Cundiff has a specific routine. Coaches know kickers are weird and need to do all kinds of mental crap before the kick, so why wouldn't the coaching staff call a timeout to let him get it all right?

I wonder if it entered Harbaugh's mind about Garrett, .. and if it played into his decision to not call the time-out.

[FootballFan1]

There have been a ton of comments from players that they thought they'd gotten a first down on the Boldin fumble - that part is totally plausible. But NE's clock keeper doing that intentionally? Come on.

BTW - Cundiff has a specific routine. Coaches know kickers are weird and need to do all kinds of mental crap before the kick, so why wouldn't the coaching staff call a timeout to let him get it all right?

My only thought is that there are always bad calls in a game. Always. I think it is ridiculous to look at every little incident and start making excuses for a loss. Bad calls are part of the game - it happens. I am sure if I looked at the game, I would find plenty that was wrong for the Pats. And to complain if we lost will get me where??? No where. I think that is bad sportsmanship.

That said, if a bad call determined the game, that is another story. And that happens too. We have all seen it. Just not in either two cases this past weekend. It was sloppy play - and neither team has anyone to blame but themselves. A fumble, and a bad kick. Well, who is to blame for that??

I really grow tired of fans that cannot approach a game's results from a logical perspective. Well, it was this, no it was that. Nonsense. And if god forbid it is a blow-out and there is no dispute, then hey your team is running up the score. I have heard it all, and it makes me weary.

The worst for me were the Denver fans. Every week, I actually looked at their board, and they talked about whoever they played and the fans from the other team were classless. Every single team, no exceptions. Are you kidding me, look in the mirror. And making fun of different cities and what a dump, etc. It wasn't even my team and I was put off. I cannot stand that kind of stuff - to me, grow up already.

Whew, sorry for the rant, but I really get tired of nonsense.

Bottom line, the kicker for the Ravens blew it. And the coaching staff for the Ravens blew it by not calling a time out. That is on them, and no one else. Oh jeez somewhere in the stadium it had the wrong down, and that is why we could not make the field goal. Really?? OK whatever. Hey, we make all our calls after reviewing what is on some board somewhere. It is the end of the game, you expect us to know what down it is???

And let's just for fun say it was true - that they didn't know what down it was at the end of a championship game - with the game on the line. Um, then I think they should all be fired for stupidity anyway.

I mean seriously, this is ridiculous. But the media just loves it - fuel the fire. Anything, they are there, fueling that fire. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

And BTW, I am objective in this. Whether we lost or won, I can look at things objectively. Something it seems that many fans cannot do. And that said, if the Colts are stupid enough to give up Manning -- and the 49er's pick him up, and he is healthy, watch out in the NFC. That one will be fun to watch. Just glad we will not have to look at him.

[punchnjudy]

Put it this way--I think there's a better chance that Ray Lewis has extended his career several years with the use of HGH.

Don't talk about cheating in a league full of cheaters unless you want to talk about everything that goes on.

[AdamJT13]

Like Cundiff cant look at the field and see what down it is?

If he's on the sideline warming up, why would he even think that the scoreboard would be wrong?

[Rogah]

I wonder if it entered Harbaugh's mind about Garrett, .. and if it played into his decision to not call the time-out.That is my working theory. I honestly believe Harbaugh got caught like a deer in the headlight because he was afraid of getting the Jason Garrett treatment for "icing his own kicker."

[WV Cowboy]

That is my working theory. I honestly believe Harbaugh got caught like a deer in the headlight because he was afraid of getting the Jason Garrett treatment for "icing his own kicker."

I guess we'll never know, but I kinda think so too.

[SkinsFan28]

Yeah. In the middle of the chaos that was the final minute of that game, I'm sure Bill Belichick phoned up to the scoreboard operator and told him to mess up the down-and-distance with the hope that the opposing kicker would have his head in his arse and not realize what down it really was.
Actually it was the Patriots Fans at the local Buffalo Wild Wings

[mmohican29]

That is my working theory. I honestly believe Harbaugh got caught like a deer in the headlight because he was afraid of getting the Jason Garrett treatment for "icing his own kicker."


I think this MIGHT be true. Absolutely.

[tyke1doe]

Huh??? A fumble with the game on the line. That is fundamental football. Mistakes you should not make. And you misinterpreted - or misstated my statement, it certainly wasn't a little thing that he fumbled, it cost them the game. But it is the little things like paying attention to those kinds of details that can turn a game around. So yes, IT IS the little things that count. But it certainly wasn't a little thing that he fumbled.

And whether Alex Smith is the right guy or not -- he did not impress me -- is not the point. They were in the game, but a fumble like that lost the game for them.

Exactly.

Fumbling with the game on the line is a big thing. Holding onto the ball securely when you're going through traffic is one of those little things you have to remember. Kyle Williams likely was taught in Pee Wee football that when you're wading through traffic, you secure the ball tightly to your chest so you don't leave any room for opponent's to punch it out.

Maybe those things aren't emphasized on the professional level, as coaches assume players know those fundamentals. But it cost the Niners big time.

[tyke1doe]

It is the little things in games that can make a difference. Just the little things. And we saw that twice this past weekend.

Take SF, the basics, hold on to the darn ball. Number one, before anything. Really wanted them to win, bummer. And with the Ravens, take your time, and concentrate on making the field goal. And they both paid the ultimate price for sloppy play.

One of the things that makes Belichick a good coach is what is called "situational" football. He stresses it over and over again. Here are the things that can come up in a game, and here is what you are supposed to do. Drums it in to the point of ridiculous - but it pays off. Get the fundamentals down first, the rest will come. But don't beat yourself. And that is what happened with both losing teams. They forgot the fundamentals. With the parity in the league, those little things can make a difference in the game.

I think the situation with the 49ers was worse than the Ravens. Yes, a field goal kicker can miss, and that is on him. But a fumble on a kickoff return when the game is on the line??? Man, if that is not fundamental, I don't know what is. Hang on to the darn ball. One of the things Belichick does is - you screw up, you sit down. He let Woodhead play after the fumble, but he knows more about the guy than I do - normally he would let that player sit out - maybe even for a few games.

I think one the reasons that Ocho is never going to make it with the Pats is that he wants to dictate the play. Not going to happen. It is dictated to him, and if you cannot fit in, then sit down. Don't just run down the field and expect the QB to find you. You go where you are supposed to be. Just a bad fit with that guy. Moss was a different story. That guy was so intelligent as a football player both him and Brady clicked. They both knew where they were supposed to be. Moss to me is one of the greatest WR's that ever played the game. One seriously amazing football player.

So SF and the Ravens can whine all they want. You forgot the fundamentals and you paid the price for it. Get over it, and get better. Sometimes you can do more with less if you don't make the kind of mistakes where you beat yourself. The most talented team does not always win.

Very good post, though I disagree with you that the "best" team doesn't always win. The best team always wins because the best team is the one that does what it needs to do to win a particular contest. The most talented team doesn't always win. Contests measure who the best teams are. Schedule results measure who the most talented, most well coach teams are.

As for the little things, that's why the Jimmy Johnson-led Cowboys teams were so good. Jimmy would prepare for everything, including field conditions.

[FootballFan1]

Very good post, though I disagree with you that the "best" team doesn't always win. The best team always wins because the best team is the one that does what it needs to do to win a particular contest. The most talented team doesn't always win. Contests measure who the best teams are. Schedule results measure who the most talented, most well coach teams are.

As for the little things, that's why the Jimmy Johnson-led Cowboys teams were so good. Jimmy would prepare for everything, including field conditions.

Yes, I stand corrected. And thank you for your post. But sometimes, in all fairness, the better team does not show up. I think most of us thought Green Bay was a lock this year - I certainly did. See my Pats in the bowl, not even a thought of it. Ever, but hey, it is what it is. So there is kind of a balance here - who showed up that day deserves to be there -- but the better team ---well, I don't know. Can we agree on that??

And Jimmy Johnson was a good coach. Maybe you guys and gals can bring him out of retirement. Preparation is so darn important. Belichick calls it situational football. Here is what you are going to face, and here is what you do if it comes up. Some players listen, others tune out. And a good coach takes the players that "tune out" and gets rid of them. It makes the difference between a loss or a win. I just think the situation with San Fran was so much worse than the Ravens. Fumble with the game on the line. If that was me running that ball, I might have put the ball under my shirt!! Bites to lose that way. Really bites.

So, bottom line, a winning team means a lot of things. A good owner, a good head coach and assistants, a good player of personnel that can get the right players on the team, and an attitude. Who you are and what you represent.

I kind of think Jerry Jones at times is a bit of a negative for your team. His ego is too much into it. But at the same time he puts his heart and soul into it. IMO, he needs to step back and let the football minds prevail. Just my thoughts. One thing I do know, the Cowboys and Patriots don't have to worry about moving to LA anytime soon - god forbid.

[Hoofbite]

Very good post, though I disagree with you that the "best" team doesn't always win. The best team always wins because the best team is the one that does what it needs to do to win a particular contest. The most talented team doesn't always win. Contests measure who the best teams are. Schedule results measure who the most talented, most well coach teams are.

As for the little things, that's why the Jimmy Johnson-led Cowboys teams were so good. Jimmy would prepare for everything, including field conditions.

I wouldn't say the best team always wins.

Teams should be judged on more than just any given week. The team who players better in any given game likely wins but I think one team having a down week doesn't imply their opponent was better.

The 9ers were a better team all year. Played some of the most sound football in the league.

I don't think the Giants are better than the 9ers but it doesn't really matter because the game ended how it ended. Being better doesn't guarantee you anything.

[Yakuza Rich]

Blah, blah and zzzzzzzzzz. The Pats deserve criticism for what???


Sorry, but ridiculous statements deserve like responses.

They deserve the criticism because they:

1) Blatantly cheated in the SpyGate scandal.

2) Lied about it.

3) Lied about 'only doing it in a few games.'

4) Lied about 'only doing it on offense.'

5) Lied about Matt Walsh and threatened to sue him and ruin his life until the league prevented them from doing that.

Not to mention that there were allegations of them messing with the communication devices at Foxboro, which the league had to institute new guidelines of having league employees install and inspect these devices themselves.

I know this breaks your fanboy heart, but they deserve the criticism because it's very suspicious.








YR

[Doomsday101]

Bottom line Cundiff missed a chip shot FG there are no excuses. This is a kick 32 yarder all kickers are expected to make no matter what. Hell college kids are expected to make it.

[joseephuss]

Bottom line Cundiff missed a chip shot FG there are no excuses. This is a kick 32 yarder all kickers are expected to make no matter what. Hell college kids are expected to make it.

I don't agree on the no matter what part. The snap and hold matter. Those aren't excuses, they can be legitimate reasons. I don't know if a bad snap and hold were reasons Cundiff missed this kick. I only saw one replay and it didn't look like a perfect hold. Was it bad enough to make a difference? I would need a closer look, which I have not seen. It is possible. It is also possible to make kicks when there is a bad hold.

[Doomsday101]

I don't agree on the no matter what part. The snap and hold matter. Those aren't excuses, they can be legitimate reasons. I don't know if a bad snap and hold were reasons Cundiff missed this kick. I only saw one replay and it didn't look like a perfect hold. Was it bad enough to make a difference? I would need a closer look, which I have not seen. It is possible. It is also possible to make kicks when there is a bad hold.

I disagree what I saw he flat out shanked the kick. No doubt an extra point can be missed but most consider it a pretty sure thing and 32 FG is pretty much expected. Heck the ball is at the 15 yard line as far as what I saw the snap was there the hold was good and he shanked it.

[Yakuza Rich]

It was a decent snap and a mediocre hold.

You would hope that he could still make it from 32-yards away, but in that situation you want everything just about perfect.

If this were the Redskins pulling this I would chalk it up as a coincidence, but given the Patriots' cheating history...I can't help but be critical of what transpired.






YR

[Cythim]

Maybe next time he will check with the chain crew instead of the scoreboard.

[FootballFan1]

They deserve the criticism because they:

1) Blatantly cheated in the SpyGate scandal.

2) Lied about it.

3) Lied about 'only doing it in a few games.'

4) Lied about 'only doing it on offense.'

5) Lied about Matt Walsh and threatened to sue him and ruin his life until the league prevented them from doing that.

Not to mention that there were allegations of them messing with the communication devices at Foxboro, which the league had to institute new guidelines of having league employees install and inspect these devices themselves.

I know this breaks your fanboy heart, but they deserve the criticism because it's very suspicious.


YR

Actually, I will respond to this.

Prior to 2007, this practice was legal, and many teams did it. It was the opening game of 2007 where Belichick continued to do it, in spite of the memo from the league asking teams to stop it. For that, Belichick was wrong. I remember first hearing it and I was very angry about it. That as a season ticket holder from the '70's. My first reaction was to fire him. But then I learned more about it, and although he was arrogant about it and was WRONG, it made no difference in any of our wins. None. And he paid for it with a heavy fine, and the loss of our number 1 pick.

And excuse me, this was defensive signals, not offensive. And I think Brady is quite good enough at reading a defense without this even being necessary.

I have read quite a bit on this subject, and I agree with many people this is just an attempt to discredit the Patriots and what they have done over the last decade. It gets old, but people are STILL whining about it in 2012. And a bad kick made by a Raven kicker. Oh, there must be some cheating going on here -- find something, anything. See, they cheated. See, the scoreboard is wrong. OMG, are you joking?? Who made that kick???

This is the green monster, envy -- nothing more. I have learned to deal with it, but no longer pay attention to the nonsense.

Some words from your old coach - Jimmy Johnson

Cowher's not the only one who feels that way. Former Dallas Cowboys coach Jimmy Johnson talked about it in an interview on WFAN in September 2007, weeks after the Spygate story broke. Johnson, who won 2 Super Bowl rings during his tenure in Dallas, discussed his thoughts on what Belichick did, but also that videotaping signals was commonplace while he was a coach in the NFL.

"Oh please. I've said it on our show," said Johnson when asked if he was bothered by what Belichick did. "Eighteen years ago a scout for the Chiefs told me what they did, and he said what you need to do is just take your camera and you go and zoom in on the signal caller and that way you can sync it up. The problem is that if they're not on the press box side you can't do it from the press box, you have to do it from the sideline. This was 18 years ago."

Johnson said that the reason why the commissioner came down as hard as he did on New England was because of the fact a memo was sent out to stop that practice shortly before that it was discovered they were still doing it.

"No, no, I said it on the show. He was wrong for doing it for the simple reason that the league knew this was going on not just in New England but around the league," said Johnson. "And the league sent out the memorandum to all of the teams saying you cannot do this. And so that's when Bill Belichick was wrong. After he got the memorandum saying don't do it any more, he did it.

When asked if he ever stole signals, Johnson said, "Oh in a heartbeat, yeah. Yes I did."

"I did it with video and so did a lot of other teams in the league. Just to make sure that you could study it and take your time, because you're going to play the other team the second time around. But a lot of coaches did it, this was commonplace."

[Rogah]

This is the green monster, envy -- nothing more. I have learned to deal with it, but no longer pay attention to the nonsense.This is 100% right on. Haters gonna hate, but all they do is show how jealous they are. It saddens me to see so many Cowboys fans become the types of people we used to make fun of.

[Yakuza Rich]

Actually, I will respond to this.

Prior to 2007, this practice was legal, and many teams did it.

That's a lie.

It wasn't legal. The league sent a memo to REMIND the teams that it was illegal to do and that they were going to take the matter seriously. You can draw your own conclusions as to why the league just happened to send out that memo.

And he paid for it with a heavy fine, and the loss of our number 1 pick.

You had another 1st round pick. And after that heavy fine, Kraft worked a new deal with a raise for Belichick for an undisclosed amount. And call me crazy, but I'm willing to bet that raise in pay was probably for the same amount as the fine.

And excuse me, this was defensive signals, not offensive. And I think Brady is quite good enough at reading a defense without this even being necessary

Again, a lie.

It was both. Matt Walsh's tapes uncovered this.

I have read quite a bit on this subject

I don't think you have. Either that or you have a selective memory.

They taped both offensive and defensive signals as shown by Walsh's tapes. This was after the lied.

You claim it was legal before 2007, which it was not.

I think these are important pieces that you conveniently left out.

It gets old, but people are STILL whining about it in 2012.

They are still 'whining' because the league and the Patriots covered the entire thing up together. That the punishment was incredibly lacking given the extra pick the Pats had (which they took away the lower pick) and Belichick's fine was cancelled out by the undisclosed raise he got right after being fined.

I think people do expect that overall the game should have integrity and that those who lack integrity and put a big dent in the integrity of the game should be policed and punished properly by the league's office. Sadly, none of that happened.

Johnson said that the reason why the commissioner came down as hard as he did on New England was because of the fact a memo was sent out to stop that practice shortly before that it was discovered they were still doing it.

The commish didn't 'come down hard' on New England. Arlen Specter did and many others because it was illegal to tape signals in 2004, when the Eagles played the Pats in the Super Bowl.

What infuriated Specter even more was Goodell's double talk and the fact that he destroyed the evidence for no good reason. And even then, the punishment was rather weak...taking away a late 1st round pick when they had a higher 1st round pick from, IIRC, San Francisco. And the 'fine' which was cancelled out by Belichick's subsequent raise weeks later.

For all intents and purposes, the league tried to sweep this under the rug until Specter stepped in. The only time the league got remotely serious about it was when there was a rumor that the Pats taped the Rams' practice before their Super Bowl. IIRC, this rumor was made by the Boston Gazette.

And the end result? The blind fanboys erroneously tried to blame Matt Walsh for making the rumor up (he never said such a thing) and used that fallacy to try and discredit Walsh...the only guy telling the truth in the ordeal.

When asked if he ever stole signals, Johnson said, "Oh in a heartbeat, yeah. Yes I did."

Yes, back in the early 90's when Johnson tried it with the Howard Mudd...but it was LEGAL back then. It wasn't in the 2000's.

Oh yeah, Belichick and Jimmy have been good friends for a LONG time. So it's not like he's unbiased.








YR

[FootballFan1]

Guess I will respond because what you write is BS.

Perhaps the better answer is there was no rule against it that was enforced prior to 2007 - and most teams did it. Well, duh.

We had another first round pick - was that illegal because they were smart?? And they have been doing that for years. That is just smart football. And if Kraft wanted to cover his butt, deal with it.

Walsh - are you joking. That idiot that was fired in 2003?? And he was one bitter man on a war hunt. And certainly someone no one gave a second thought to on the Patriots team. Offensive plays are not called in by hand signals. Duh. This has never been an issue with this. In fact, one of the things that teams did to not relay defensive plays is to do the same as they do with offensive plays. See those darn things on their hands?? Total BS.

Wait what else am I supposed to respond to???

Do you have anything else to say??? Oh I know for sure, it was actually a Patriot fan that made that kick. Yep, that is what it was. Darn, that cheating, it just never ends.

[dthahn]

Way to conveniently ignore the FACTS and brush aside the illegal nature of your team's activities. Man, you are DELUSIONAL!!

Hey, I have an idea. Why don't you check out the fact that it was illegal prior to 2007? I bet you won't because your fantasy world would fall apart.

Face it man, your team is a bunch of cheaters led by a master cheater, Belicheat! Now, I bet you still pretend that a U.S. Senator named Arlen Spector never looked into the Spygate scandal.

This is classic Homerism at its delusional best.

[Rogah]

For all intents and purposes, the league tried to sweep this under the rug until Specter stepped in. The only time the league got remotely serious about it was when there was a rumor that the Pats taped the Rams' practice before their Super Bowl. IIRC, this rumor was made by the Boston Gazette.

And the end result? The blind fanboys erroneously tried to blame Matt Walsh for making the rumor up (he never said such a thing) and used that fallacy to try and discredit Walsh...the only guy telling the truth in the ordeal.For someone criticizing someone else's memory of this incident, your's is awfully spotty.

John Tomase of the Boston Herald reported, on the eve of Super Bowl 42, that the Patriots had videotaped the Rams' practices. About a month later the Herald had to run a full, front page retraction. Tomase has since been taken off the football beat at that paper and with that false article, he pretty much ruined his career and any dreams of advancing.

So who was Tomase's source? Well, you know, an awful lot of evidence says that source could have been Matt Walsh. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. For you to state that "Walsh never said such a thing" is claiming to know something as a fact when you really don't.

[FootballFan1]

Well, I could just go away, no problem on my end. But that said, there are lots of objective folks on this board. That can talk some football. And that is why I post here.

I have learned that the media just loves a story. And have also learned that the media looks for things like this "cheating" scandal as something they would have a field day with. Stir that darn pot, and let's go for it. The truth, doesn't matter, go for it. Keep looking.

I will continue posting in spite of being called a homer and delusional. OK whatever. I have never been a homer or delusional that I remember!! Um. well maybe delusional at times -- but not about football.

I think personally this is one of the most over-blown ridiculous stories - and hardly deserves my attention. Oh, you missed the kick - who is to blame, not the kicker. And then to keep bringing it up. Maybe when Belichick retires. I only know that Kraft looked into it in a serious way, and I did as well. I have already stated my first impression was to fire Belichick - but then found out it was something done on a regular basis by most teams.

So it was opening day 2007 this all came up. And who needs a video camera anyway - you can look at the signals all on your own. Offensive calls are made via equipment on the QB's hand. But knowing Brady, he didn't need any of this "defensive" information anyway. In my eyes, one of the things he does best is read a defense, and then adjust. And he has time to listen to something being called in -- in a matter of seconds. I think not.

I continue to believe that Belichick was wrong in ignoring the letter sent by the NFL in 2006. That said, Walsh is just a bitter man, fired in 2003. And the charges he made about the Rams later proved to be false - not that anyone remembers that. The charge was made, that is all that people remember - even if it was BS.

But ultimately I blame Belichick. Don't be too cocky about what you are doing - even if it doesn't help your team. I also blame another bitter person named Mangini. Where are you now you fool?? When he left to take the head coaching job in New York (Jets) it is a well known fact that he "stole" information from the Patriots head office. About plays, thoughts, and strategies. None of that is mentioned. Whatever, where is your job now if you were so smart?? Many teams take coaches from the Patriots thinking that is the reason they are winning. Excuse me, how many of those coaches actually turned out to be worthwhile??? Not Mangini, that is for sure -- what goes around, comes around.

This is one of the most overblown stories in football history, and did absolutely nothing in terms of the Patriots executing on the field. What I mean by that, you miss a kick - oh, someone is cheating. You drop a ball - oh, someone is cheating. It has reached the point where it just flat out bores me.

So I am not going to stop posting just because someone cannot be objective. That does not represent the majority of people that post on this board. But to call me a homer - are you joking? Is my head in the sand?? Sorry folks, not who I am. At the same time, am a die-hard, in your face Patriot fan, yes. But a homer, are you joking. Not who I am.

Our chances on Sunday, I do not have a clue. It all depends upon Brady. But I hope he read something like I did and gets angry. Denver learned about Brady getting angry. Hope that happens and maybe the Giants throw a little nonsense around - that will fire him up good. But I think their coach is a little smarter than that -- do NOT stir the hornet's nest, you will pay for it.

All I hope for is a clean game, without any questionable calls so the fools of the world will have to be quiet. Oh, what am I saying, they will anyway. OK now, let's just look for something. And with the utmost honestly, I really don't care anymore about what the fools of the world have to say.

[Yakuza Rich]

Well, I could just go away, no problem on my end. But that said, there are lots of objective folks on this board. That can talk some football. And that is why I post here.

Unfortunately, you are not objective. You made up things that clearly didn't exist. Like the 'it was not illegal before 2007.'

It's such an egregious error because Specter wanted it investigated to see what happened in *2004* when his Eagles played the Patriots. If it wasn't illegal before 2007, the NFL could have just told Specter that. But, it was illegal to do before 2007 and Specter forced the NFL to do a little more of an investigation that the 'sweep it under the rug and destroy the evidence immediately' job that they did.

I have learned that the media just loves a story. And have also learned that the media looks for things like this "cheating" scandal as something they would have a field day with. Stir that darn pot, and let's go for it. The truth, doesn't matter, go for it. Keep looking.

I won't disagree with you on the media, but the only person that the truth doesn't matter to appears to be you with your inane mistruths and fallacies.

They cheated.

They lied that it ever happened.

They got caught.

They lied that it only happened during a few games and 'done for preseason games.'

They got caught.

They lied that they only got the defensive signals.

They got caught.



I will continue posting in spite of being called a homer and delusional. OK whatever. I have never been a homer or delusional that I remember!! Um. well maybe delusional at times -- but not about football.

Well, the first step is admitting you have a problem :)


I think personally this is one of the most over-blown ridiculous stories - and hardly deserves my attention. Oh, you missed the kick - who is to blame, not the kicker. And then to keep bringing it up.

That's what happens when you get caught lying repeatedly in a scandal. In future events when something suspicious happens, people tend to look at you more skeptically. That is unless you're some blind lemming for your favorite football team.


I only know that Kraft looked into it in a serious way

This doesn't even pass the laugh test.

I have already stated my first impression was to fire Belichick - but then found out it was something done on a regular basis by most teams.

Again, lies.

It doesn't happen.

The only team reported on this was...the Patriots.

I could understand changing your mind for other reasons on some level, but you're making stuff up. That makes you come off as delusional about football.

The non-delusional Belichick supporters would say something like 'he did what he felt he had to do to win, it didn't penalize us much, it was wrong, but I still want him as my coach.'

The delusional make ridiculous claims like it wasn't illegal before 2007, then 'just about everybody does it' and 'Kraft was serious about it.'


So it was opening day 2007 this all came up. And who needs a video camera anyway - you can look at the signals all on your own. Offensive calls are made via equipment on the QB's hand. But knowing Brady, he didn't need any of this "defensive" information anyway. In my eyes, one of the things he does best is read a defense, and then adjust. And he has time to listen to something being called in -- in a matter of seconds. I think not

Then why do it?

For fun?

Why go on the other team's sidelines and have somebody disguised as NOT being a part of your team and getting a close up video of the coach's signals?


I continue to believe that Belichick was wrong in ignoring the letter sent by the NFL in 2006. That said, Walsh is just a bitter man, fired in 2003. And the charges he made about the Rams later proved to be false - not that anyone remembers that. The charge was made, that is all that people remember - even if it was BS.

He didn't make those charges.

Again, making up lies.

Once that accusation came out, Walsh said that he never made that accusation.

Now...why would deny that allegation? If he has such a vendetta against the Patriots, I don't see him disavowing that allegation (not made by him) just so he can stick it to the Pats.

I also blame another bitter person named Mangini. Where are you now you fool?? When he left to take the head coaching job in New York (Jets) it is a well known fact that he "stole" information from the Patriots head office. About plays, thoughts, and strategies. None of that is mentioned.

It's not illegal to 'steal' plays, thoughts and strategies.

It is illegal to videotape team's signals.

Big difference.

Only a delusional homer would try to assimilate the two.


This is one of the most overblown stories in football history, and did absolutely nothing in terms of the Patriots executing on the field. What I mean by that, you miss a kick - oh, someone is cheating. You drop a ball - oh, someone is cheating. It has reached the point where it just flat out bores me.

The Patriots made their own bed with their cheating reputation. Now they get to lie in the wet spot.


So I am not going to stop posting just because someone cannot be objective.

Who is going to be more objective about the situation....a Patriots fan or a Cowboys fan?














YR

[Yakuza Rich]

For someone criticizing someone else's memory of this incident, your's is awfully spotty.

John Tomase of the Boston Herald reported, on the eve of Super Bowl 42, that the Patriots had videotaped the Rams' practices. About a month later the Herald had to run a full, front page retraction. Tomase has since been taken off the football beat at that paper and with that false article, he pretty much ruined his career and any dreams of advancing.

So who was Tomase's source? Well, you know, an awful lot of evidence says that source could have been Matt Walsh. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. For you to state that "Walsh never said such a thing" is claiming to know something as a fact when you really don't.

I don't think you really know the definition of 'spotty' since nothing I said was really untrue.

Remember, right after the allegation came out Matt Walsh discredited the rumor that he was ever asked to tape any team's practice.

Now, why would Walsh discredit that accusation?

If he was so hellbent on hurting the Patriots, he could have just said 'yes, that's true' or hinted at it being true. Even if they proved it to be false, Walsh wouldn't be sued (he had amnesty from the league).

So he could have just piled it on and disrupted things more.

It doesn't take an experienced detective to figure that out.

I believe Tomase either:

1) got it from another unqualified source.
2) thought Walsh said it and mis-heard it.
3) made the story up

My guess is that it was probably #3.

I highly doubt he misquoted Walsh. And if he got it from a source (even if for some odd reason it was Walsh -- hypothetical), these days editors would probably ask for the source and if a source did tell them that, they stick behind their writer.

I think he probably made the story up to some degree and given Kraft's power and influence they told him to hit the bricks.








YR

[DoomsDayD]

THis is a couple of minutes of my life i will never get back.

[dreghorn2]

THis is a couple of minutes of my life i will never get back.

Actually kudos to Yakuza for getting to the heart of the matter, good summation of past events and why the current perception of the Patriots (by many) is what it is.

[FootballFan1]

Yakuza Rich - had to write that down, unusual name. I will respond.

First off I stand by my comments. And you somewhat twisted my words to make your point. The rules were in fact very unclear. And it was common practice to steal signals - and still is today. One of the things that teams do is to send in defensive signals the same way that offensive signals are sent in - via hand devices. So, please don't go there with offensive calls - total BS. And I have already said that Belichick was wrong and arrogant to do what he did.

And I think after so many years, it is rather ridiculous to continue to bring this up in every game the Patriots play. I say with complete honesty, it is just plain jealousy. If this was the Cleveland Browns (sorry Browns fans, I actually like your team) it would have been dropped after the first year. But whatever floats your boat. And sorry Walsh was a liar (even lied on his resume), and was fired in 2003. And also believe Mangini stealing information from the Patriots before he left was wrong, and I am sure there was some bad blood there. And also Denver was found guilty of this just a few years ago, but not a word about that. Who cares about Denver, well maybe if they start winning some Super Bowls. Don't think that is going to be happening with Tebow.

One of the things that bothers me is that you use personal insults to make your point. You have chosen to insult me on a personal level, rather than just making your points. The obvious reason for that, to goat me, or annoy me. Most people would let that get to them and respond in a way that would be similar. Sorry to disappoint you, but that doesn't work with me.

In that you have chosen to insult me personally and this might escalate, I will simply leave this board. I have posted here because I have enjoyed it. There are some good folks on this board. If it is no longer any fun, no reason to stay. Also, I don't want to create any issues for this board because it is a good board. I made a mistake, you simply cannot post on another board outside of your own team. Saying that, I appreciate the many good fans of football on this board. But I certainly do not go to any board to be personally insulted. Just not my thing, and in the scheme of things it is not that important to me.

[Yakuza Rich]

FootballFan1 - You keep *lying* about what happened and then figuratively cover your ears with your hands and yell 'lalalalalalalala.'

You claimed it 'was not illegal before 2007.' You now claim it was 'rampant before then and still is today.' As well as 'the rule was unclear.'

All lies.

It's a typical defense of those caught in lies...blame the others for taking your words out of context. Then as your last leg to stand on, you're playing the victim roll because I called you a 'fanboy.'

The TRUTH is that the Pats videotaped BOTH sides of the ball for coaches signals. Matt Walsh's tapes are EVIDENCE showing that. You can keep denying it, but that is what the tapes showed. And the Patriots LIED about that as well as their numerous other lies.

As far as Denver goes, the team was caught videotaping under then head coach, Josh McDaniels...a Belichick protege. In fact, the Patriots just re-hired McDaniels. I guess birds of a feather, flock together.

My point has been all along is that I don't have a problem with a Pats fan wanting to have Belichick as their coach. I could see the *spin* in justifying keeping him around. I just don't understand the lies and mistruths. It's one thing to say 'I think he made a mistake, but I want him here' and it's another to lie and say 'it wasn't illegal before 2007' and 'Robert Kraft took this seriously', etc.

Bill Belichick put a gigantic dent in the integrity of the game as far as I'm concerned and I can't forgive him for that. It's like if Bernie Madoff got out of jail and signed a huge book deal. Would anybody who brings up how he stole millions be considered 'ridiculous' and 'only doing it because they are plain jealous?'









YR