11 Year Old Kid Talks About Nutrition and What's Wrong with our Food System

[CowboyMcCoy]

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[notherbob]

This kid knows his stuff and he sees through the advertising hype to the truth underneath.

He is also right that you can pay the farmer a little or the hospital a lot more because our food supply is making us sick. Most modern disease comes from what we eat. I have two pieces of advice,

1. to change the source of your food from the factory to the local organic farms, and

2. because most will not be able to change, you may as well cash in on their misfortune and invest in health care stocks, they have a constant stream of patients continuously being developed.

Learn everything you can about your own food supply as if your life depended on it because it does. Now that the sources of most of our food and our health care have gone corporate they have not been being fully honest with us and it is up to us to protect our own interests.

You can be certain they are looking out for their interests.

Yes, it does sound cynical but then one needs to be a little cynical these days since things ain't like they used to be.

[CowboyMcCoy]

This kid knows his stuff and he sees through the advertising hype to the truth underneath.

He is also right that you can pay the farmer a little or the hospital a lot more because our food supply is making us sick. Most modern disease comes from what we eat. I have two pieces of advice,

1. to change the source of your food from the factory to the local organic farms, and

2. because most will not be able to change, you may as well cash in on their misfortune and invest in health care stocks, they have a constant stream of patients continuously being developed.

Learn everything you can about your own food supply as if your life depended on it because it does. Now that the sources of most of our food and our health care have gone corporate they have not been being fully honest with us and it is up to us to protect our own interests.

You can be certain they are looking out for their interests.

Yes, it does sound cynical but then one needs to be a little cynical these days since things ain't like they used to be.

Two questions for you, notherbob. Which university did you attend? And how old are you?

[notherbob]

I'm 72 and we were so poor when I was young that college was not an option and even had to turn down an athletic sponsorship at Nebraska and get a job. IF I wanted to learn about anything I just spent hours at the library and so I became a self-uneducated man :rolleyes:

What I love about the internet is that you can learn about anything you want. If you will Google Dr. Mercola and see the information he and others in the organic movement present you will understand that the things this kid is saying are true.

[CowboyMcCoy]

I'm 72 and we were so poor when I was young that college was not an option and even had to turn down an athletic sponsorship at Nebraska and get a job. IF I wanted to learn about anything I just spent hours at the library and so I became a self-uneducated man :rolleyes:

I was using your age as an example of how leading a healthy lifestyle can lead you to the fountain of youth. You once said you still look sort of sexy. I admire that.

What I love about the internet is that you can learn about anything you want. If you will Google Dr. Mercola and see the information he and others in the organic movement present you will understand that the things this kid is saying are true.

Even though I went to a university, I consider myself mostly self-educated. They just teach you a good base. As my professor once said, you take what you want to remember and leave the rest behind. But always be a learner.

Oh, and I thought you went to A@M for some time. Or maybe just spent some time learning about agriculture there, and garlic. :)

[StevenOtero]

Great post, seen this before.

[CowboyMcCoy]

Great post, seen this before.

Thanks. I think people get annoyed with it. But the kid is telling the truth. Number one, we need to be healthier. Number two, let's not make our health dependent on Wall Street. Number three, free will means you have a better chance at being healthy. But understanding how you do that is key.

And what this kid is really saying is beyond words in describing its importance. Plus, it's a kid with some talent. That's always a cool thing.

[ShiningStar]

Thanks. I think people get annoyed with it. But the kid is telling the truth. Number one, we need to be healthier. Number two, let's not make our health dependent on Wall Street. Number three, free will means you have a better chance at being healthy. But understanding how you do that is key.

And what this kid is really saying is beyond words in describing its importance. Plus, it's a kid with some talent. That's always a cool thing.

Why? What happened to lead your own life your way? When did it become law we have to live a certain way?

[CowboyMcCoy]

Why? What happened to lead your own life your way? When did it become law we have to live a certain way?

It's ok if you don't want to. But I like that a kid can get excited about some things. I had to start thinking about my health this past July and August when I was hospitalized mostly for the way I was eating. And I don't look that unhealthy, really. I'm 35 and look pretty good. But my health was in the gutter.....

[ShiningStar]

It's ok if you don't want to. But I like that a kid can get excited about some things. I had to start thinking about my health this past July and August when I was hospitalized mostly for the way I was eating. And I don't look that unhealthy, really. I'm 35 and look pretty good. But my health was in the gutter.....

way to ignore everything than jump on the wagon when things got bad in a hurry. Kind of like that Bayer commerical "i never thought id have a heart attack" Again, way to ignore even the basic health advice, but thats people for you.


Btw, welcome to 35 now watch your health. Good luck to you.

[CowboyMcCoy]

way to ignore everything than jump on the wagon when things got bad in a hurry. Kind of like that Bayer commerical "i never thought id have a heart attack" Again, way to ignore even the basic health advice, but thats people for you.


Btw, welcome to 35 now watch your health. Good luck to you.

Wow, people really are piling on me. I have an IBD. But anyway, it's not about ignoring what I eat. It's that some foods--even healthy ones-- cause flare ups that can put you in the hospital.

Way to ignore the facts. Moreover, way to jump to conclusions.

[notherbob]

Oh, and I thought you went to A&M for some time. Or maybe just spent some time learning about agriculture there, and garlic. :)

Nope, no A&M. They have a very strong bunch of horticulturists in everything but garlic, it's a complete blank for them. They receive very large contributions from big chemical companies and are heavily tied into chemical agriculture and big agribusiness and are not very open to the idea of small family farms and organic growing.

I don't take sides in the Aggie-teasipper wars and I have nothing against them and they do a lot of good things.

[CowboyMcCoy]

Nope, no A&M. They have a very strong bunch of horticulturists in everything but garlic, it's a complete blank for them. They receive very large contributions from big chemical companies and are heavily tied into chemical agriculture and big agribusiness and are not very open to the idea of small family farms and organic growing.

I don't take sides in the Aggie-teasipper wars and I have nothing against them and they do a lot of good things.

What was that link then where you wrote about listening to Dr.'s, about medical research about garlic. You sat in the room and took notes? Or am I thinking of someone else? I agree about Aggies and organics, but the idea is not lost on us tea sips.

[Future]

This kid is reading a script, he doesn't really know what he's talking about.

More importantly, Ron Swanson
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[Hoofbite]

Why? What happened to lead your own life your way? When did it become law we have to live a certain way?

way to ignore everything than jump on the wagon when things got bad in a hurry. Kind of like that Bayer commerical "i never thought id have a heart attack" Again, way to ignore even the basic health advice, but thats people for you.


Btw, welcome to 35 now watch your health. Good luck to you.

:laugh2:

[CowboyMcCoy]

:laugh2:

I fail to see the humor in it, mostly because I already stated it wasn't my diet that caused my disease, per se. I admit I wasn't eating the best diet at one point, but the Dr. swears it was not caused by diet. I have had luck controlling the symptoms with diet though. I guess I fail to see the humor in others illness or suffering. But that's just me.

[ShiningStar]

I fail to see the humor in it, mostly because I already stated it wasn't my diet that caused my disease, per se. I admit I wasn't eating the best diet at one point, but the Dr. swears it was not caused by diet. I have had luck controlling the symptoms with diet though. I guess I fail to see the humor in others illness or suffering. But that's just me.

i think he was more laughing at my posts but again fail to see the humor, also dont see any humor in what you went thru, i was just unaware of what you went thru and you took offense to it. But thats all of us anyway.

[notherbob]

What was that link then where you wrote about listening to Dr.'s, about medical research about garlic. You sat in the room and took notes? Or am I thinking of someone else? I agree about Aggies and organics, but the idea is not lost on us tea sips.

That was in Tulsa at OSU's local campus Where I was invited to attend a series of symposia where the most accomplished people in the world doing research into garlic were invited for lectures and discussions. It was the only series of meetings ever held among these widespread authorities on the subject.

I was the only one there who didn't have at least one doctorate degree and this is where I learned more about garlic than I could possibly have learned in any university. I was invited not because of my knowledge but because I have the most popular garlic website on the net. My job was to learn all I could so I could disseminate this little understood science to the world and explain how it works.

Once I understood generally how it all works I could see lots of ways this science could cure lots of diseases when used in different ways - there's more to it than eating it. I am now helping people to discover how they can treat themselves to cure MRSA and many other resistant forms of bacteria that are costing people billions. I'm not a doctor so I do not charge anyone any fees.

There's even a special way to use garlic to fight cancer and people who eat garlic get less cancer to begin with and that's a statistical fact. In the coming months and years I will be publishing online as many of these curing ways as I have time to deal with.

Yes, it is odorous, inelegant and unsophisticated and very effective when used properly.

I doubt I will make much money from all this as I intend to place all this information into the public sector of folk medicine and everyone can use the information for free to treat themselves or not as they see fit. Such as it is, that is my contribution that will stay behind when I go on to what is next.

I have to stop this post now because it could go on all day but you get the point, I'm a man on a smelly mission.

[Hoofbite]

I fail to see the humor in it, mostly because I already stated it wasn't my diet that caused my disease, per se. I admit I wasn't eating the best diet at one point, but the Dr. swears it was not caused by diet. I have had luck controlling the symptoms with diet though. I guess I fail to see the humor in others illness or suffering. But that's just me.

The humor is in getting pissing by someone saying we need to eat healthier but then coming right back and saying "now watch your health".

Throw on top the "I'll live how I want" sentiment and then trying to pin someone else for "ignoring basic advice".

[ShiningStar]

The humor is in getting pissing by someone saying we need to eat healthier but then coming right back and saying "now watch your health".

Throw on top the "I'll live how I want" sentiment and then trying to pin someone else for "ignoring basic advice".

people who sit on the sideline poking fun at others. cute. send a pm maybe you'll learn something.

[Hoofbite]

people who sit on the sideline poking fun at others. cute. send a pm maybe you'll learn something.

Doubtful.

[ShiningStar]

Doubtful.

thats fine i expect nothing less from you, ive seen you just sit on the sidelines poking fun without understanding something nor getting clarification, but many a people like that. its okay, u dont come across as someone whos willing to undertand anothers pov, you just know what you know and expect the rest to take you for it.

[Hoofbite]

thats fine i expect nothing less from you, ive seen you just sit on the sidelines poking fun without understanding something nor getting clarification, but many a people like that. its okay, u dont come across as someone whos willing to undertand anothers pov, you just know what you know and expect the rest to take you for it.

I'm all ears.

Clarify.

[CowboyMcCoy]

That was in Tulsa at OSU's local campus Where I was invited to attend a series of symposia where the most accomplished people in the world doing research into garlic were invited for lectures and discussions. It was the only series of meetings ever held among these widespread authorities on the subject.

I was the only one there who didn't have at least one doctorate degree and this is where I learned more about garlic than I could possibly have learned in any university. I was invited not because of my knowledge but because I have the most popular garlic website on the net. My job was to learn all I could so I could disseminate this little understood science to the world and explain how it works.

Once I understood generally how it all works I could see lots of ways this science could cure lots of diseases when used in different ways - there's more to it than eating it. I am now helping people to discover how they can treat themselves to cure MRSA and many other resistant forms of bacteria that are costing people billions. I'm not a doctor so I do not charge anyone any fees.

There's even a special way to use garlic to fight cancer and people who eat garlic get less cancer to begin with and that's a statistical fact. In the coming months and years I will be publishing online as many of these curing ways as I have time to deal with.

Yes, it is odorous, inelegant and unsophisticated and very effective when used properly.

I doubt I will make much money from all this as I intend to place all this information into the public sector of folk medicine and everyone can use the information for free to treat themselves or not as they see fit. Such as it is, that is my contribution that will stay behind when I go on to what is next.

I have to stop this post now because it could go on all day but you get the point, I'm a man on a smelly mission.

Good stuff, notherbob. Like I said, I admire the passion and actually what you do too. I'm a foodie of sorts. I believe in the power of curing through food. I believe we were meant to eat certain things, and other things we weren't.

That said, food has been used in and as medicine for ages. Since as far as we can date back, they have evidence of types of medicine being used. In some cases, they figured out how to brew beer with tetracycline in it. They verified this by decoding the brew on the wall from an old language and making the brew by the ancient recipe. Sure enough, the bones they discovered at the site not only contained tetracycline, they were making it 3,000 years before it was ever "invented" here, which is evident that it must be why it was present in the ancient bones they were studying.

Sometimes it takes people a while to come around and question science.

[SaltwaterServr]

Good stuff, notherbob. Like I said, I admire the passion and actually what you do too. I'm a foodie of sorts. I believe in the power of curing through food. I believe we were meant to eat certain things, and other things we weren't.

That said, food has been used in and as medicine for ages. Since as far as we can date back, they have evidence of types of medicine being used. In some cases, they figured out how to brew beer with tetracycline in it. They verified this by decoding the brew on the wall from an old language and making the brew by the ancient recipe. Sure enough, the bones they discovered at the site not only contained tetracycline, they were making it 3,000 years before it was ever "invented" here, which is evident that it must be why it was present in the ancient bones they were studying.

Sometimes it takes people a while to come around and question science.

While garlic has incredible properties, it should be noted that it also sequesters heavy metals, especially lead and mercury, very effectively. Make sure you know the soil mineral content where you plant it.

You want to get a great pop for your garlic? Try hydroponics. I hear the flavor of it is exceptional in several varieties.. Feed the plant, not the dirt.

[ScipioCowboy]

While garlic has incredible properties, it should be noted that it also sequesters heavy metals, especially lead and mercury, very effectively. Make sure you know the soil mineral content where you plant it.

You want to get a great pop for your garlic? Try hydroponics. I hear the flavor of it is exceptional in several varieties.. Feed the plant, not the dirt.

We need to find a country where corporations aren't allowed to peddle their influence. Can you list some and their corresponding life expectancies? :D

[notherbob]

While garlic has incredible properties, it should be noted that it also sequesters heavy metals, especially lead and mercury, very effectively. Make sure you know the soil mineral content where you plant it.

You want to get a great pop for your garlic? Try hydroponics. I hear the flavor of it is exceptional in several varieties.. Feed the plant, not the dirt.


Studies in Japan and the USA have shown that garlic when crushed and consumed either raw or cooked removes 1/10 of the weight of the juice produced by crushing the garlic in heavy metals from the body so that it is an excellent mechanism for removing heavy metals from the body.

If one feeds the hydroponic fluid, one feeds it for one growing season but if one feeds the soil the nutrients remain to feed other lifeforms which in turn continue to feed the soil and the organisms that live in that ecosystem.

If a person has two one acre gardens, one fertilized organicly and the other using conventional petrochemical fertilizers and keeps them up for five years and then stops fertilizing both gardens, the organic garden will continue to produce good food for a few years while the petrochemical garden will produce only runts. If one feeds the plant rather than the soil one impoverishes the soil, rendering it useless without the expensive fertilizers.

While petrochemical fertilizers do feed a plant for a season they also kill off most of the beneficial microbial life in the soil rendering the soil incapable of growing decent plants without adding increasing amounts of fertilizer every year.

That is one of the main reasons people switch from chemical to organic growing. Organically grown plants are naturally better balanced and resist insect pressure better whereas conventionally fertilized crops are weaker and are more attractive to insects and require lots of petrochemical insecticides, which the fertilizer salesman will be only too happy to sell them - and they'll need more next year than this year.

Every year chemical fertilizer prices increase and there are fewer petrochemical farmers and they get bigger and every year there are more organic farmers and they get smaller and better and the petrochemical industry curses every one of us.

In my view, petroleum should be used for one's tractor, not poured on one's soil.

You can have my share of the conventionally grown food, I'll go organic every time.

[SaltwaterServr]

Have any links to those studies? Not editorial summaries, but the actual published scientific research. Too often articles produced in grey literature grossly misrepresent or ignore critical components of the studies to promote their own agenda.

I'll get into why a lot of what you posted is either wrong, misrepresentative, or ignorant later on when I have more time. Suffice it to say I'll take my hydroponic inorganic or organic system and outproduce your organic field crop by a factor of 6-10x final product weight, not including a truncated growing season that allows me 2-3 crops per year. Oh, and I'll get a few hundred thousand pounds of say, tomatoes, in 25,000 sq ft of space.

I'm getting a kick out of you saying that petrochem fertilizers kill the micro-organsims in the soil, rendering it unable to grow anything while organics will produce for years. That's too freaking rich. :lmao:

The part about petrochem costing more and more??? :lmao2: last I checked, organics in any store are significantly higher than petrochem crops. Damn those chemical companies for giving us a surplus of inexpensive consumables! Damn them straight to hell!

[notherbob]

Nice thing about opinion boards is that we are all free to express our opinions and others can agree or not and that's OK.

You should enjoy your food produced the way you want and I will enjoy mine produced the way I want. I have no problem with that.

[CowboyMcCoy]

Have any links to those studies? Not editorial summaries, but the actual published scientific research. Too often articles produced in grey literature grossly misrepresent or ignore critical components of the studies to promote their own agenda.

I'll get into why a lot of what you posted is either wrong, misrepresentative, or ignorant later on when I have more time. Suffice it to say I'll take my hydroponic inorganic or organic system and outproduce your organic field crop by a factor of 6-10x final product weight, not including a truncated growing season that allows me 2-3 crops per year. Oh, and I'll get a few hundred thousand pounds of say, tomatoes, in 25,000 sq ft of space.

I'm getting a kick out of you saying that petrochem fertilizers kill the micro-organsims in the soil, rendering it unable to grow anything while organics will produce for years. That's too freaking rich. :lmao:

The part about petrochem costing more and more??? :lmao2: last I checked, organics in any store are significantly higher than petrochem crops. Damn those chemical companies for giving us a surplus of inexpensive consumables! Damn them straight to hell!

This whole post is rich. Some people have good results with food as a cure. Some foods have been used for ages. Garlic is one of them. I find it odd that you're arguing about organics and their prices. That's mostly because they don't mass produce produce and food like other farmers do. So since they typically don't have the volume, they have to charge higher prices.

And I don't think Bob was talking about producing quantity. He was talking about producing quality.

I've used garlic before for remedies and it seems to work for me. The only problem is getting how much you should eat right. For me just a small amount went a long way, but I juice the cloves with some organic tomatoes.

I think you mentioned you were in the restaurant business. Perhaps that's why you're so against non-GMO food and organics.

Maybe I'm wrong, though.

And do you even have your own hydroponic growing system, growing tomatoes? Or were you being hypothetical? Because Bob actually does farm his own stuff.

[SaltwaterServr]

Nice thing about opinion boards is that we are all free to express our opinions and others can agree or not and that's OK.

You should enjoy your food produced the way you want and I will enjoy mine produced the way I want. I have no problem with that.

One thing I really wanted to mention was the move to organic farming in areas you would never expect to grow anything. It's truly amazing what some farmers have accomplished in western Australia, using waste compost to rebuild topsoil that's been eroded for centuries due to monsoon weather patterns.

Same thing in some parts of the Middle East. They produce locally grown organic crops, everything from grapes to figs and all manner of fruit and veggie in between, in polyethylene shaded desert sands that have been revitalized using compost. I think in the Sineloa state in Mexico they use saltwater to grow salicornia, and then use the stalks left over as the brown matter to enrich some of the barren soil that they replant over.

[CowboyMcCoy]

One thing I really wanted to mention was the move to organic farming in areas you would never expect to grow anything. It's truly amazing what some farmers have accomplished in western Australia, using waste compost to rebuild topsoil that's been eroded for centuries due to monsoon weather patterns.

Same thing in some parts of the Middle East. They produce locally grown organic crops, everything from grapes to figs and all manner of fruit and veggie in between, in polyethylene shaded desert sands that have been revitalized using compost. I think in the Sineloa state in Mexico they use saltwater to grow salicornia, and then use the stalks left over as the brown matter to enrich some of the barren soil that they replant over.

That's what he was talking about... not destroying the topsoil, and growing non-GMO foods the old fashioned, organic way. Like my grandmother who lived way into 90s, mostly because she was a gardener, IMO.

[SaltwaterServr]

This whole post is rich. Some people have good results with food as a cure. Some foods have been used for ages. Garlic is one of them. I find it odd that you're arguing about organics and their prices. That's mostly because they don't mass produce produce and food like other farmers do. So since they typically don't have the volume, they have to charge higher prices.

And I don't think Bob was talking about producing quantity. He was talking about producing quality.

I've used garlic before for remedies and it seems to work for me. The only problem is getting how much you should eat right. For me just a small amount went a long way, but I juice the cloves with some organic tomatoes.

I think you mentioned you were in the restaurant business. Perhaps that's why you're so against non-GMO food and organics.

Maybe I'm wrong, though.

And do you even have your own hydroponic growing system, growing tomatoes? Or were you being hypothetical? Because Bob actually does farm his own stuff.

Some foods have been used as medicine for ages, because there wasn't any alternative. Garlic works pretty good for high blood pressure. Why? Because it sequesters iron fairly well, making it a little tougher for the human body to produce a blood molecule. Same thing that makes it potentially dangerous, it sequesters heavy metals and you can end up eating it.

There's a general misconception about organics. People tend to lump it all together into one concept which is erroneous from a production and consumption stand point. Some fruits and vegetables are very susceptible to absorbing water based pesticides and herbicides, others not much at all. There's zero point to buying organic pineapples, watermelons, cantelopes, or any product with a thick skin. First, you're not eating the part that is in contact with the sprayed agents, and second some plants have biochemical pathways that don't incorporate anything harmful.

Now if you asked me where I'd go organic? Leafy vegetables. Thin skinned fruits and veggies. Celery, spinach, lettuces, tomatoes (prefer hydro myself), peaches, bell peppers, strawberries, and potatoes.

Now with hydro, I can produce better quality and quantity. A plant is like any other organism, it's dietary needs/mineral requirements change with time. My tomato growing manual has three different solutions it recommends for different growing periods. 1. Initial sprout to third real branching shoot. 2. Branching to first trellis 3. First trellis fruit development through the production cycle.

When you buy tomatoes on the vine packaged in the store, that vine piece is the trellis, but not the whole trellis. I've found that the books are correct, more than four or five (four better) active fruits growing per trellis lead to reduced yield. You clip off the extra and get better fruit set.

For folks who love a thicker, hardier tastier product, man I can't recommend hydroponics enough. Garlic? OMG, slap your mama good and you can grow it in a 10 gallon aquarium with a simple fish tank aerator. I've grown butter lettuce as well. Tomatoes I can't really say my results have been great since I didn't have room to go anywhere with the vines. They grow at an unbelievable rate when you've got the temperature set right with the right solution. I came across a photo from a hydro grower in Mexico that showed the older vines of their tomato plants coiled up like rope. You're talking something like 20' long vines before the fruit set starts to taper off. Not something you can really do inside very well.

As far as organics, it doesn't lend itself well to mass production. Hard to grow organic wheat when you need something on the order of about a ton of organic compost fertilizer every 3-4 years, per acre. The problem therein is where are you going to process that organic matter into usable organic material? You've got a 1000 acres of wheat field, you need 2,000,000 pounds of organic matter. Are you buying that? Processing it yourself? Where? What are you using for "green" matter and "brown" matter for your final organic fertilizer? Where are you getting that? Is the final product homogenized, and is it optimized for growing your crop?

End result, you get a much more expensive final product. There isn't any organic crop that I can think of that's cheaper than it's petro-chem grown cousin. Not even close in most cases.

Let's say organic fertilizer and petro-chem cost the exact same, per millimole of nutrients applied per acre and you're buying both for your 1000 acres. Now figure in the difference in cost of transporting 2,000,000 pounds of organic material versus a few hundred gallons of fertilizer. Ah, but you only have to transport it every 3 or 4 years if you go organic. True. Let's go with four year cycle.

In petro-chem, you have a good idea of how much you'll need to get X amount of bushels per acre. You have a fertilizer that can be optimized for wheat. You spray, you plant, you grow. You lose some fertilizer to leaching due to rain and to saltation (soil particles containing the fertilizer blowing away). Fertilizer ends up in run-off and we end up with a dead zone at the mouth of the Mississippi due to excessive plankton growth and decay.

End of the season, it's sort of what Nother Bob said, you can't grow anything else. Not because the soil's dead, but because your intensive crop production has exhausted nutrients in the soil. You need to fertilize again next year. Think of it like a 4 hour headache pill. After 4 hours, you need to take another if the headache persists.

Think of organic fertilizer like a 12 hour time release pill. The necessary nutrients in the organic compost no longer smell like the refuse that it was made from, but it's not broken down completely into the inorganic macromolecules needed by the plant. Great example would be nitrogen. Almost all crop plants from cereals to wine grapes cannot assimilate organic nitrogen without Nitrobacter or Nitrosomonas bacteria. In sprayed fertilizer and ammonia injection, we can provide the plant an inorganic nitrogen source in high quantities. In organic, we need the bacterial production. Either way, whether it comes from a refinery or a bacterial by-product, its the exact same chemical being used by the plant.

That's kind of why you have to apply so much organic material to a field to get even in the ballpark of petro-chem fertilized production. Not all of the nutrients have been broken down far enough to be used by the plant, but will continue to be broken down and usable through time, just like a time release capsule.

Uh oh, one problem. Remember us losing nutrients via leaching from rain and run-off from the sprayed petro-chem fertilizer? Same thing's happening in the organic system except that at the end of the growing season when the petro-chem is used up, the organic is still there being leached out. End result, you end up losing valuable nutrients in fallow fields whereas the petro-chem was dosed at a rate and concentration to maximize production.

So if you spent the same dollar on organic fertilizer for X amount of nutrients as compared to X amount of petrochem, you come out ahead on petro-chem due to loss by environmental factors being greater in an organic system. Moreover, in that third year or fourth year when you're running on the last of the organic nutrients, there's nothing to say that your nutrient ratios will at all be in a good balance for plant growth. This goes back to my three stage tomato hydro crop. Different nutrient balances give you better results at different stages. It's impossible to know by year 3 if you've got enough essential microelements to produce the same amount of grain/fruit/vegetable as you would in a petrochem system.

That's hyper critical in a crop like lettuces where a lack of, ah hell can't remember off the top of my head, a certain microelement is needed to prevent bolting. Bolting being a lettuce plant grows a stalk and ends up looking like a 12' tall plant, but it falls over and cracks because it can't support the weight, thereby killing it. If you want to check the entire 1000 acres for soil samples you could, at your expense which is again higher than spraying a specifically formulated petro-chem fertilizer.

The second or third part of that imbalanced equation is loss through microbial growth. While necessary to convert the cellulose and other organic materials in the starter system into usable compost, you also lose some nutrients to the microbes. That was one thing that doomed BioDome 1 or 2, can't remember which. They thought they'd have perfect recycling, but ended up with a bumper crop of microbes as a nutrient sink that can't be tapped unless you kill the microbes and let them rot in the soil. Highly impractical of course. You can't go around and steam 1000 acres of farmland. Well you could, but you'd be stupid to try.

Now I highly recommend folks try out both organic gardening and hydroponic gardening for their own fruits and veggies. For me, I'm draw to hydroponics because of the control of the chemistry and the economics of the system, i.e. I can produce more with less effort on a smaller footprint of land. Moreover, I can do hydroponics in my den with a grow light and a few aquariums. A buddy of mine started growing eggplants in his garage not too long ago. He keeps the plants next to the water heater and says they're growing great.

Another reason to try your own gardening is it can save you money at the store.

Anyway, that's my grossly incomplete summary on organics, hydroponics, and petro-chem fertilized crops.

Now, if you want, I'll give you a way to grow tomatoes with oceanic saltwater as your only water source. Got a really neat desalination system I've been working on in my spare time for that very thing.

[SaltwaterServr]

That's what he was talking about... not destroying the topsoil, and growing non-GMO foods the old fashioned, organic way. Like my grandmother who lived way into 90s, mostly because she was a gardener, IMO.

One thing to keep in mind, if all farms converted to old-fashioned organic starting tomorrow, millions if not tens of millions of people would starve to death in the next year. It's just not an efficient system, even less so if you start foregoing corporate mega-farms who reap huge benefits from economies of scale to smaller family owned farms.

The topsoil isn't destroyed in a petro-chem system. The mineral/nutrient ratios and molar concentrations are changed because the plant uptake is different/optimized. So long as the soil particle size remains the same, the nutrient holding capacity against leaching by gravitational water can be restored immediately.

In the desert/Australia examples, you're changing that particle size by introducing organic matter. Unless you continually replenish it, that new "soil" for lack of a better word, will become barren as well.

[CowboyMcCoy]

One thing to keep in mind, if all farms converted to old-fashioned organic starting tomorrow, millions if not tens of millions of people would starve to death in the next year. It's just not an efficient system, even less so if you start foregoing corporate mega-farms who reap huge benefits from economies of scale to smaller family owned farms.

The topsoil isn't destroyed in a petro-chem system. The mineral/nutrient ratios and molar concentrations are changed because the plant uptake is different/optimized. So long as the soil particle size remains the same, the nutrient holding capacity against leaching by gravitational water can be restored immediately.

In the desert/Australia examples, you're changing that particle size by introducing organic matter. Unless you continually replenish it, that new "soil" for lack of a better word, will become barren as well.

I'm not arguing an instant change. Even the 11 year old was smart enough to say "one kid at a time". It would be something we would do over time. And to let the food industry know we're not going to spend our money there, which would hike food prices. But it would also encourage more people to do their own farming, like notherbob... who I think is sort of like the crazy farmer the kid was talking about. But I think, like my 90 something year old grandmother, he's onto something.

pdlhr8My9n4
The above youtube is actually notherbob. He's how old? Even my girlfriend said he's sexy for his age. Guy looks like he's in his early 60s. I think I'll listen to him about how to eat, rather than the mass produced propaganda. Yes, I'll pay for it. But like the kid says, it's better than paying the hospital.

[SaltwaterServr]

You've missed the point entirely, the change you're waiting on will never come. Ever. We're not going to change from petro-chem fertilizers.

Organically grown food is a niche product, nothing more. You waste resources, arable land, production yield, and loss through pests/diseases. Pretty much why I said if you want it, do it in your own backyard instead of digging out a swimming pool.

[CowboyMcCoy]

You've missed the point entirely, the change you're waiting on will never come. Ever. We're not going to change from petro-chem fertilizers.

Organically grown food is a niche product, nothing more. You waste resources, arable land, production yield, and loss through pests/diseases. Pretty much why I said if you want it, do it in your own backyard instead of digging out a swimming pool.

You sort of led me to believe you had your own hydroponic farm, yielding tons of tomatoes. But that wasn't the case. I get sustainability. And, yeah, it could change... if people made a point to educate other people about farming. Keeping food from spoiling has been a problem since way before the industrial era, so I get that. I'm saying we should go back to our roots. Because if you look at guys who draw out the future, they want to go vertical. So why not just put natural soil in a vertical farming system? That could solve part of the problem we have with a carcinogenic food supply.

[CowboyMcCoy]

Also, for either of you, or for anyone else who may want to chime in. I've also used bentonite clay, which essentially means I mix clay, or more like ash that turns into clay when dampened, to detox my body and remove metals. i learned this from studying astrophysics and how astronauts in space used it for various reasons, primarily because if they took it they didn't get osteoporosis in space at zero gravity. And that's because all of the minerals, like calcium, in bentonite clay are absorbable. On top of juicing, I also drink edible clay. It helps balance the PH in your body, which seems to help with IBD and things like that I deal with.

Totally off topic, in a way, but does anyone have any insight opinions on bentonite clay?

[SaltwaterServr]

You sort of led me to believe you had your own hydroponic farm, yielding tons of tomatoes. But that wasn't the case. I get sustainability. And, yeah, it could change... if people made a point to educate other people about farming. Keeping food from spoiling has been a problem since way before the industrial era, so I get that. I'm saying we should go back to our roots. Because if you look at guys who draw out the future, they want to go vertical. So why not just put natural soil in a vertical farming system? That could solve part of the problem we have with a carcinogenic food supply.

If you try to educate people about organic systems the intelligent response is going to be "Why should I spend more time and effort on organic when I can get better yield for less money using a bag of NPK I can pick up anywhere? What about pest control? Prevention of aflatoxin development if I get fungal infections? Oh, I see. More money, more effort, same or less production. Gotcha." Then they chuckle, walk away, and wonder if they could sell you dial-up internet access when you have cable speeds available.

That's where I am with organics. I researched it, learned quite a bit about it, and then got behind the manufactured information to the real science. Hence, I call it a niche. That's where it is, that's where it'll stay. Its profitable because people will buy anything if you market it the right way.

The science of hydroponics is well documented. Exceptionally well as a matter of fact. There's quite a bit of information about selective micronutrient enhancement in tomatoes for example that enhance the flavors. It's expensive to capitalize a hydro farm, but like I said, the production is anywhere from 6-10x that of soil grown crops.

Natural soil in a vertical system is a waste of time if you're going vertical. You highly limit the nutrient availability, increase the weight of the system and the support structure, and end up growing pounds of microbes that extract nutrients from the system thereby further limiting your production. Its a four-fold backfiring system, not to mention you're going to have to sterilize the soil every so many crops if you're keeping it production year round, which you could do with artificial lighting and solar heating.

I've seen some examples of vertical systems used for initial seed propagation and forage production. It's of some use, but the suitable crops are limited.

If there's going to be a push for small farm systems, it's going to be hydro because of you can get 6-10x the production out of the same land space as any other method. The reason it won't necessarily take off is because its a more technically challenging form of agriculture and expensive to set up. You must have a good grasp on chemistry in addition to the fundamentals of agronomy. Another reason hydro could take off further is because of the limited use of water. Depending on the system, your dripping or flooding the plant's roots with the same solution for up to 6 weeks if you know you EC ratios and plant physiology. It uses a small fraction of the water of traditional field agriculture.

I just don't put much into organic farming. At one time I thought it was a great idea, then I looked at the bigger picture.

If you want to see something really eye-opening, take a look on Google Earth at "Dahkla Western Sahara". Zoom in on the peninsula until you can see the rectangles and grid pattern on the sand. That's Azura produce from France. They grow tens of thousands of TONS of produce, in the desert. That's land that is totally unsuitable for growing anything, put into production for feeding people.

Same with Sun Drop Farms in Port Augusta, Australia. They grow crops in an area where nothing grows but scrub brush, and there's no freshwater.

http://www.azura-group.com/en/savoir-faire/production

and

http://www.sundropfarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Outside-Spencer-Gulf.jpg

220,000 pounds of tomatoes, in that environment, in that tiny footprint. What you can't see is the integrated desalination system.

That's why I don't waste my time with organic food production. You want to feed the world's growing population? Organics is a dry hole with no future in that regard. You want to give the world nutrient rich fruits and vegetables when the world's freshwater supply is dwindling and almost all arable land in the world is already in production? The only answer there is, is hydroponics.

[SaltwaterServr]

Also, for either of you, or for anyone else who may want to chime in. I've also used bentonite clay, which essentially means I mix clay, or more like ash that turns into clay when dampened, to detox my body and remove metals. i learned this from studying astrophysics and how astronauts in space used it for various reasons, primarily because if they took it they didn't get osteoporosis in space at zero gravity. And that's because all of the minerals, like calcium, in bentonite clay are absorbable. On top of juicing, I also drink edible clay. It helps balance the PH in your body, which seems to help with IBD and things like that I deal with.

Totally off topic, in a way, but does anyone have any insight opinions on bentonite clay?

Are you trying to get kidney stones and/or gall stones on purpose? Unless you're calcium deficient in your diet, you might be going way overboard. I'd seek the advice of a licensed physician who can readily evaluate your total dietary needs and potential pitfalls with taking in calcium in such amounts. Heck, in San Marcos you stand an elevated chance of getting kidney or gall stones just because the water contains a slightly elevated amount of magnesium and calcium. One of my employees just moved from there because he was having kidney stones. He's 25. My organic chemistry professor at TSU had recurring issues with kidney stones the year I had his classes, even after switching to bottled water.

I can't imagine what bentonite clay would do for your risk factor for that.

Then again, I might be wrong, and if there's one thing I detest is being wrong because I don't know any better. Any chance to learn something new is a chance that must be seized. One of my personal mantras.

[CliffnMesquite]

The child seems well coached. But, it's an interesting message.

[notherbob]

I don't know much about all those other things, garlic is my specialty.

I do think Saltwater Servr is right about organics not lending itself well to mass production. That is why our niche business isn't for everyone. We carefully husband a limited number of plants and lavish extra care on them and charge a premium price for them rather than try to grow mass amounts of plants that are not closely attended to sell for a cheaper price.

We grow for a marketplace where people are eagerly willing to pay a premium price for a premium product. Low price is not a consideration; high quality is. The Chinese grow twice as much garlic as the rest of the world combined and they can undercut anybody and if we grew for the "lowest common denominator" low price mass market, the Chinese would put us out of business in the blink of an eye.

Retailers must carefully choose their market these days if they want to have any chance to survive. Organic produce isn't for everyone, just those who prefer it for their own reasons.

If a person will compare the taste of foods purchased at a supermarket with foods purchased at an organic farmers market, I believe most people would prefer the taste of the organic produce. If you have fresh locally grown peaches for sale in a store, you can smell them when you walk in the door, not so the semi-tasteless peaches that were picked green and ripened in a gas chamber and that came in from California.

Since I haven't had any garlic of my own to sell lately because of drought I have opened up an online garlic farmers market on my website so that small organic and sustainable growers all over the country can share the popularity of my website and sell their premium garlic to the public at prices ranging from $16/lb to $24/lb with me getting a commission.

It works for us; our customers rave about our garlic and keep coming back for more.

[Hoofbite]

Also, for either of you, or for anyone else who may want to chime in. I've also used bentonite clay, which essentially means I mix clay, or more like ash that turns into clay when dampened, to detox my body and remove metals. i learned this from studying astrophysics and how astronauts in space used it for various reasons, primarily because if they took it they didn't get osteoporosis in space at zero gravity. And that's because all of the minerals, like calcium, in bentonite clay are absorbable. On top of juicing, I also drink edible clay. It helps balance the PH in your body, which seems to help with IBD and things like that I deal with.

Totally off topic, in a way, but does anyone have any insight opinions on bentonite clay?

Doesn't sound all that reasonable.

Why not just take a multivitamin?

Your pH is regulated very closely and any balance that the bentonite does would almost assuredly be counteracted by your body, possibly even immediately.

And as far as the calcium. Saltwater said it, too much isn't going to do anything good. He hit on the stones but more than that, it can be deposited into your vasculature if you use it long enough at a high enough dose.

[CowboyMcCoy]

Doesn't sound all that reasonable.

Why not just take a multivitamin?

Your pH is regulated very closely and any balance that the bentonite does would almost assuredly be counteracted by your body, possibly even immediately.

I just figure NASA can't be wrong about some things. I do it to remove toxins from my body. I only eat the edible. I also have GI issue, which means my intestines don't absorb nutrients as well as others... so I do it for 1) to remove toxins and 2) to make sure my body absorbs some key nutrients. That, and it gives you a vitamin rush.

I don't think you get nearly as much absorption from a multivitamin as you do with juicing vegetables or with bentonite. At least that's what I've experienced.

[notherbob]

I'm not arguing an instant change. Even the 11 year old was smart enough to say "one kid at a time". It would be something we would do over time. And to let the food industry know we're not going to spend our money there, which would hike food prices. But it would also encourage more people to do their own farming, like notherbob... who I think is sort of like the crazy farmer the kid was talking about. But I think, like my 90 something year old grandmother, he's onto something.

pdlhr8My9n4
The above youtube is actually notherbob. He's how old? Even my girlfriend said he's sexy for his age. Guy looks like he's in his early 60s. I think I'll listen to him about how to eat, rather than the mass produced propaganda. Yes, I'll pay for it. But like the kid says, it's better than paying the hospital.

Guilty as charged, your honor, that is indeed me.

Bob Phillips did that in 2005 and has since been syndicated and appeared on RFD-TV and been translated into many languages and shown all over the world. I have also been recommended by The NY Times, Dallas Morning News, Forbes Mag, Food and Wine Mag, Organic Gardening Mag and Texas Gardener Mag and lots of syndicated newspaper stories so I'm probably one of the better known garlic growers around. It's kind of surprising because I don't advertise or do anything to get attention, it just seems to come on its own. Being at the top of Google doesn't hurt, either.

There's just something about 60 or 80 different kinds of garlic that gets people's attention. There are hundreds of cultivars of garlic, all of which are different cultivars of the ten basic different varieties. My website is the best place on the net to learn about garlic and I feel a responsibility to deliver accurate information.

Thanks for the platform.

[CowboyMcCoy]

The child seems well coached. But, it's an interesting message.

Of course he practiced his speech. He was also home schooled, which I think is unique. And hey, Cliff found something interesting.... :eek:

[CowboyMcCoy]

I don't know much about all those other things, garlic is my specialty.

I do think Saltwater Servr is right about organics not lending itself well to mass production. That is why our niche business isn't for everyone. We carefully husband a limited number of plants and lavish extra care on them and charge a premium price for them rather than try to grow mass amounts of plants that are not closely attended to sell for a cheaper price.

We grow for a marketplace where people are eagerly willing to pay a premium price for a premium product. Low price is not a consideration; high quality is. The Chinese grow twice as much garlic as the rest of the world combined and they can undercut anybody and if we grew for the "lowest common denominator" low price mass market, the Chinese would put us out of business in the blink of an eye.

Retailers must carefully choose their market these days if they want to have any chance to survive. Organic produce isn't for everyone, just those who prefer it for their own reasons.

If a person will compare the taste of foods purchased at a supermarket with foods purchased at an organic farmers market, I believe most people would prefer the taste of the organic produce. If you have fresh locally grown peaches for sale in a store, you can smell them when you walk in the door, not so the semi-tasteless peaches that were picked green and ripened in a gas chamber and that came in from California.

Since I haven't had any garlic of my own to sell lately because of drought I have opened up an online garlic farmers market on my website so that small organic and sustainable growers all over the country can share the popularity of my website and sell their premium garlic to the public at prices ranging from $16/lb to $24/lb with me getting a commission.

It works for us; our customers rave about our garlic and keep coming back for more.

We farm well. Our nation was built on this sort of organic farming. And then, well, it grew. And now we have sustainability issues, like spoiling food, supply and demand, pests... The food companies care about shelf life and profit, but that doesn't mean they care about you. They're selling a product. So yeah, we make a lot of stuff that has a long shelf life, but most food in the grocery store is bad for you according to nutritionalists.

So I get the produce thing. And I think people who consume a lot of veggies that aren't organic are doing better than eating cheetoes. I buy mostly organic produce because when I do eat it or juice it, I don't want the pesticides.

I do eat processed stuff from time to tome. The problem with that, if that's all you eat, most likely you won't have a long shelf life.

My grandparents, who lived through the depression, and they canned everything. It's amazing how far we've come though.

[CowboyMcCoy]

Are you trying to get kidney stones and/or gall stones on purpose? Unless you're calcium deficient in your diet, you might be going way overboard. I'd seek the advice of a licensed physician who can readily evaluate your total dietary needs and potential pitfalls with taking in calcium in such amounts. Heck, in San Marcos you stand an elevated chance of getting kidney or gall stones just because the water contains a slightly elevated amount of magnesium and calcium. One of my employees just moved from there because he was having kidney stones. He's 25. My organic chemistry professor at TSU had recurring issues with kidney stones the year I had his classes, even after switching to bottled water.

I can't imagine what bentonite clay would do for your risk factor for that.

Then again, I might be wrong, and if there's one thing I detest is being wrong because I don't know any better. Any chance to learn something new is a chance that must be seized. One of my personal mantras.

I already have kidney stones... but not as many as I once did because of all the cucumbers I've drank from juicing. And, my body is calcium deficient because I don't absorb food and nutrients well. So since it's absorbable, that's what I drink. It also pulls metals out of your body and it's what NASA gives their astronauts to prevent osteoporosis from zero gravity. I've found a lot of detoxing people taking it with psylium husks, which I also use from time to time.

[Hoofbite]

I just figure NASA can't be wrong about some things. I do it to remove toxins from my body. I only eat the edible. I also have GI issue, which means my intestines don't absorb nutrients as well as others... so I do it for 1) to remove toxins and 2) to make sure my body absorbs some key nutrients. That, and it gives you a vitamin rush.

I don't think you get nearly as much absorption from a multivitamin as you do with juicing vegetables or with bentonite. At least that's what I've experienced.

Even if they still give it to astronauts today, it's for spaceflight. Sounds like you make it a part of your regular diet. They were taking it because they were deficient, or at the least insufficient, not because they wanted to get a little extra.

I'm no doctor so I'm not going to say you should or should not do something but I would be careful with it. Definitely consult someone about it.

[Hoofbite]

Guilty as charged, your honor, that is indeed me.

Bob Phillips did that in 2005 and has since been syndicated and appeared on RFD-TV and been translated into many languages and shown all over the world. I have also been recommended by The NY Times, Dallas Morning News, Forbes Mag, Food and Wine Mag, Organic Gardening Mag and Texas Gardener Mag and lots of syndicated newspaper stories so I'm probably one of the better known garlic growers around. It's kind of surprising because I don't advertise or do anything to get attention, it just seems to come on its own. Being at the top of Google doesn't hurt, either.

There's just something about 60 or 80 different kinds of garlic that gets people's attention. There are hundreds of cultivars of garlic, all of which are different cultivars of the ten basic different varieties. My website is the best place on the net to learn about garlic and I feel a responsibility to deliver accurate information.

Thanks for the platform.

Gotta admit, that's pretty cool.

You seem to have found something you really love and ain't nothing better than that.

[vta]

Yes, it is odorous, inelegant and unsophisticated and very effective when used properly.

I'm a man on a smelly mission.

:laugh2:

I've always loved garlic regardless. It's a boon that it has such good effects on health and over the years I've gotten some good info from you. I even took to chewing it raw from time to time. Keep up the good fight Brother Bob. :)

[Wimbo]

Guilty as charged, your honor, that is indeed me.

My website is the best place on the net to learn about garlic

So... what is your website address?

[CowboyMcCoy]

Even if they still give it to astronauts today, it's for spaceflight. Sounds like you make it a part of your regular diet. They were taking it because they were deficient, or at the least insufficient, not because they wanted to get a little extra.

I'm no doctor so I'm not going to say you should or should not do something but I would be careful with it. Definitely consult someone about it.

The reason why they gave it to astronauts is because of its absorption levels. In other words, the minerals absorb well.

[CowboyMcCoy]

So... what is your website address?

I think this is it...
http://www.gourmetgarlicgardens.com/

[Vtwin]

I remember the good old days before I married my gardening fanatic wife. Used to be able go to the grocery store and buy some veggies and make something that I enjoyed. Now that I am fed a regular diet of home grown organic veggies everything else sucks. We buy most of our meat from local farmers in bulk and again... the grocery store stuff doesn't even come close.

Around here locally grown produce and meat has almost moved past being a niche. Farmers Markets all over the place and the local grocery stores have sections for locally grown.

[MetalHead]

I believe is it nothing short of criminal to do what Monsanto is doing.
I'm a full blown capitalist who believes in profiteering,but there is a moral line I will never cross.
Genetical engineering of food is one of those.
Nature never intended for it to be that way.

Here is another controversial angle to the debate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axU9ngbTxKw

[CowboyMcCoy]

I believe is it nothing short of criminal to do what Monsanto is doing.
I'm a full blown capitalist who believes in profiteering,but there is a moral line I will never cross.
Genetical engineering of food is one of those.
Nature never intended for it to be that way.

Here is another controversial angle to the debate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axU9ngbTxKw

I agree. Nice Video. The FDA is corrupt, mostly because it's ran by people who were once CEOs in the food/drug industry.

[CowboyMcCoy]

If you want to have a say about Monsanto, here is the link where you can voice your opinion...

http://signon.org/sign/tell-obama-to-cease-fda.fb1?source=s.fb&r_by=2087405

[Hoofbite]

I believe is it nothing short of criminal to do what Monsanto is doing.
I'm a full blown capitalist who believes in profiteering,but there is a moral line I will never cross.
Genetical engineering of food is one of those.
Nature never intended for it to be that way.

Here is another controversial angle to the debate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axU9ngbTxKw

Nature never intended to have flu vaccines either.

Or MMR, Tdap or Japanese Encephalitis.

[Rackat]

Nature never intended to have flu vaccines either.

Or MMR, Tdap or Japanese Encephalitis.
I blame Darwin.

[CowboyMcCoy]

I blame Darwin.

:laugh1: