Ingram or Decastro?

[Teague31]

If both are there at 14, who would you take and why? I'm really torn on this one. Would love to get someone to help keep Tony upright but we are so desperate for a pass rush... Close call!

[tupperware]

It is somewhat close but I take DeCastro.

[robert70x7]

If both are there at 14, who would you take and why? I'm really torn on this one. Would love to get someone to help keep Tony upright but we are so desperate for a pass rush... Close call!

DeCastro.

Here's what we have right now under contract for guards: David Arkin, Kyle Kosier (cut), and Phil Costa.

At LB, we still have Ware, Butler, Albright, Carter under contract.

As of RIGHT NOW, DeCastro HAS to be the pick. Stuff could change with free agency and we'll see what happens at the combine, but our interior offensive line is so incredibly weak.

[RS12]

DeCastro is closer to a cant miss prospect than Ingram IMO. Pick needs to be a home run not a single.

[MichaelWinicki]

DeCastro is closer to a cant miss prospect than Ingram IMO. Pick needs to be a home run not a single.

No question.

I think DeCastro is the better prospect.

[burmafrd]

A lot will depend on FA, but all things being equal Decastro is the better player. I just do not see Ingram as all that much of a improvement on Spencer.

[tm1119]

Depends on what we do in FA. If we can 1 of Nicks/Grubbs/Mathis than I take Ingram. If we don't sign a significant guard than its DeCastro without hesitation.

[kevinhickey]

DeCastro, would be my choice hands down. Put him next to Tyron Smith for the next 10 years. I'm not struck on Ingram do to his lack of size and the fact that we do not have the big uglies (true NT and massive DT's) that can keep the O linemen off of him.

[supercowboy8]

I would have to say Ingram.

Think about odds and history.
The odds of finding a starting OLB in the 2nd is alot harder than finding a starting OG.

If we sign Nicks then there is no way Jerry drafts an OL in the 1st with so many holes on defense.

[Dcowboy84]

if this situation played out i'm torn on what i would want, but if this played out for real i believe the team would take Ingram.

reason i say is when Jerry was interviewed and talked about maybe going to young in the middle of the line i think he would like to get a veteran guard in FA

i guess i figure that regardless of the "sure thing" factor we're thinking about in Decastro i think it may get trumped for a veteran and we saw in every game last year that aside from Ware our pass rush sucks

[Oh_Canada]

Ingram with no hesitation. Edge rushers are difference makers, the guy is exactly what that defense needs.
I like Decastro, but guards are not game changers. Besides you can have your pick of about four guards in the second round if you want to fill that need.

[Eskimo]

If the grades are close to equal I'd take Ingram. This is because OGs are easier to find than good edge rushers. If we add another pass rusher and a good CB this defense can go from okay to very good in one season.

If DeCastro grades out much better I'd begrudgingly go with him but I just don't think it is a great use of a mid-first rounder. This is doubly true since he may not even be much better than Cordy Glenn.

I'm still really hoping Coples falls to us but I doubt that now that he has really impressed at the Senior Bowl.

[28 Joker]

I really like both of them, and I expect both of them to be on Dallas' short list at 14. Guards usually fall, and pass rushers rise. Ingram may rise too far.

Ingram appears to have really impressed with his display of sudden speed and quickness and with his athletic ability and pass rush moves. Plus, he can rush inside on the four man line and put his hand in the dirt. I like him, and the Cowboys could really use him. I think Ingram could be used in several different ways and be moved around some. Ingram has made a strong statement at the Senior Bowl.

I have to admit, I'm starting to eye this deep guard class, too. I wonder if it will be a factor if the players are rated really close, because there are several big guards out there. Plus, they have good athleticism. The Cowboys want to get bigger at guard and still have good athletic ability.

The Cowboys should compare Ingram to DeCastro and Ingram to the other pass rushers in the draft and DeCastro to the other guards in the draft. Of course, those two players would be big upgrades over what they have now, imo. I think it would be a real close call now, because Ingram has made such a strong statement. In fact, I'd probably give Ingram the edge now based on just my gut feeling. I'm talking about how Dallas would likely behave if they picked between the two players.

Anyway, I hope Ingram ends up rated ahead of Upshaw on the short list, and I wouldn't draft Upshaw, a pure power player. I'd take DeCastro over Upshaw for sure. However, Ingram makes it a fight, imo.

The Giants and Eagles and Chargers would take Ingram, imo. The Steelers and Chiefs and Patriots would take Upshaw, imo. The Cowboys are too big and slow on defense, and adding a top SEC player would be a positive, imo. Saban is from the Patriots philosophy, and Upshaw reflects that. He's a pure power player, not really a classic SEC front 7 guy. Please give me the speed and quickness and athletic ability, because I'm tired of watching slow, big players in the front seven, especially against the Eagles and Giants.

Cordy Glenn is a big, powerful OT who will shift to guard, and he is looking like another first round guard. Glenn would appear to fit good with Dallas wanting to add size and power inside. Glenn played OT in the SEC, so that tells me has some athletic ability. By the time 14 comes around, the players may be blending together, and Glenn might be an option.

Glenn was a guy Hostile mentioned that he liked in an earlier thread.

Eskimo points him out above..

[Future]

DeCastro is closer to a cant miss prospect than Ingram IMO. Pick needs to be a home run not a single.
Bingo

[da_boyz_mk]

For me it's DeCastro. I think he provides a better chance of getting consistent production from day one. I like Ingram but not completely sold on the time of impact he can provide. I think you'll get 6-8 sacks a year out of him. To me that's not great value at pick #14.

[cbow44]

DeCastro, Fix the defense in free agency. Unless of course one of the cornerbacks drop.

[robert70x7]

Now that I think about it, signing a guard should be the Cowboy's top priority. If they could get Nicks, the "best guard" in football, and they have Ware, who is the best "3-4 WOLB" in football... that would give us more versatility with our pick at 14.

I'll say it again, with the current state of our team, the pick has to be DeCastro.

[RoyTheHammer]

Finkle or Einhorn?

[MichaelWinicki]

I like Decastro, but guards are not game changers.

You mean like if the guard gets pushed back in the pocket so the QB can't step and get the ball to the receiver breaking 2 yards beyond the corner down at the 20 yard-line...

Or if it's 4 and 1, and you're on the team's 42, with 56 seconds to go and you're behind by a point– And the guard you're suppose to run behind get's stuffed at the line of scrimmage so you gain zero yards on your line plunge.


Yeah, I can see why guards aren't considered "game changers".

[reddyuta]

Sign a FA guard and draft an olb in the first rd.

[Sasquatch]

If the grades are close to equal I'd take Ingram. This is because OGs are easier to find than good edge rushers. If we add another pass rusher and a good CB this defense can go from okay to very good in one season.

If DeCastro grades out much better I'd begrudgingly go with him but I just don't think it is a great use of a mid-first rounder. This is doubly true since he may not even be much better than Cordy Glenn.

I'm still really hoping Coples falls to us but I doubt that now that he has really impressed at the Senior Bowl.

I agree with this.

[AmishCowboy]

I'm more of a Upshaw guy, I really Like DeCastro though, but I think we might address that area in FA, or draft Glenn or Ben Jones in the 2nd round.

[Randy White]

If both are there at 14, who would you take and why? I'm really torn on this one. Would love to get someone to help keep Tony upright but we are so desperate for a pass rush... Close call!


I'm drafting Ingram and moving up into the first round for Cordy Glenn.

Ok.. I'll admit, it's the same philosophy as drafting DeCastro and moving up for Vinny Curry ( if he falls )

[johnnyd]

Love them both but Ingram is really growing on me . My dream of signing Brandon carr aside. plugging in Ingram,Carter and Carr and we have upgraded our defense significally.

[VACowboy]

DeCastro, no doubt in my mind. I just think he's a much better guard than Ingram is a pass rusher. You may be able to get a guard in round two, but you won't be able to get a guard like DeCastro.

[MichaelWinicki]

DeCastro, no doubt in my mind. I just think he's a much better guard than Ingram is a pass rusher. You may be able to get a guard in round two, but you won't be able to get a guard like DeCastro.

That's the one right there.

When was the last time a guard was projected at this point of the draft to be knocking at the door of the top-10 picks?

To say you can get another guard later in the draft is easy.

But a piece of cheesecake from the "Cheesecake Factory" is a whole lot different from the piece you're going to get from "Bob's Supermarket".

I still wonder about Ingram's consistency.

It's a big difference from the 11 tackle, 3.5 sack game vs Auburn and the 1 tackle, zero sack games vs Kentucky, Georgia, Tennessee and the Citadel.

That's 4 games, 4 total tackles, no sacks.

I'm sure some will say, "Oh those games don't matter".

Well that's the same type of inconsistency many talk about with Spencer.

[gmoney112]

Ingram without a doubt. Ware's prime years are wasting away and in today's NFL you have to get to the Quarterback. DeCastro is the best guard no doubt but we can fill that hole in FA and take another interior lineman in the draft.

[VACowboy]

That's the one right there.

When was the last time a guard was projected at this point of the draft to be knocking at the door of the top-10 picks?

To say you can get another guard later in the draft is easy.

But a piece of cheesecake from the "Cheesecake Factory" is a whole lot different from the piece you're going to get from "Bob's Supermarket".

I still wonder about Ingram's consistency.

It's a big difference from the 11 tackle, 3.5 sack game vs Auburn and the 1 tackle, zero sack games vs Kentucky, Georgia, Tennessee and the Citadel.

That's 4 games, 4 total tackles, no sacks.

I'm sure some will say, "Oh those games don't matter".

Well that's the same type of inconsistency many talk about with Spencer.


I agree completely, but it's more than that to me. We can't afford to just not miss at #14. We need a home run, and while Ingram may turn out to be a home run, he hasn't demonstrated himself to be that type of player. DeCastro, on the other hand, has been a consistent a grand slam, and I just don't think you pass that up.

Frankly, I'm tired of the mentality that says we can get by with lesser players on the OL. It's time to emphasize the big boys a little bit. They're no different than players at any other position: you get what you pay for.

[VACowboy]

Ingram without a doubt. Ware's prime years are wasting away and in today's NFL you have to get to the Quarterback. DeCastro is the best guard no doubt but we can fill that hole in FA and take another interior lineman in the draft.

I disagree wholeheartedly with this strategy. Is Ware getting older? Yes. Do we need pass rush help? Certainly. But I don't think you pick an OLB just because there's one there, especially instead of a guy who's being called the best player at his position in ten years--who also plays a position of great team need. If Ingram's in last year's draft, he's not even being discussed until the very tail end of round one, behind Smith, Quinn and Kerrigan.

[Oh_Canada]

You mean like if the guard gets pushed back in the pocket so the QB can't step and get the ball to the receiver breaking 2 yards beyond the corner down at the 20 yard-line...

Or if it's 4 and 1, and you're on the team's 42, with 56 seconds to go and you're behind by a point– And the guard you're suppose to run behind get's stuffed at the line of scrimmage so you gain zero yards on your line plunge.


Yeah, I can see why guards aren't considered "game changers".

So you would rather watch Eli Manning stand there for ten seconds shredding our defense while Romo stands on the sidelines helpless?? The Saints have the best guards in football, how did that work out for them? Not saying a good oline isn't important but the Boys have invested plenty of draft choices lately on the oline, how many edge rushers and dlineman have they drafted?

[Future]

I'm drafting Ingram and moving up into the first round for Cordy Glenn.

Ok.. I'll admit, it's the same philosophy as drafting DeCastro and moving up for Vinny Curry ( if he falls )
I actually like that idea a lot. Though it would probably mean we are going to miss out on most of those good 2nd round corners.

[Romo 2 Austin]

DeCastro

[robert70x7]

I agree completely, but it's more than that to me. We can't afford to just not miss at #14. We need a home run, and while Ingram may turn out to be a home run, he hasn't demonstrated himself to be that type of player. DeCastro, on the other hand, has been a consistent a grand slam, and I just don't think you pass that up.

Frankly, I'm tired of the mentality that says we can get by with lesser players on the OL. It's time to emphasize the big boys a little bit. They're no different than players at any other position: you get what you pay for.

Here's the guards that have been drafted in Round 1 since 1990:

Lester Holmes
Aaron Taylor
Ruben Brown
Jermaine Mayberry
Jeff Hartings
Chris Naeole
Alan Faneca
Steve Hutchinson
Kendall Simmons
Logan Mankins
Davin Joseph
Ben Grubbs
Branden Albert
Mike Iupati
James Carpenter
Danny Watkins

These are a lot more "hits" than "misses". 6/16 were All Pro.

[robert70x7]

Here's the guards that have been drafted in Round 1 since 1990:

Lester Holmes
Aaron Taylor
Ruben Brown
Jermaine Mayberry
Jeff Hartings
Chris Naeole
Alan Faneca
Steve Hutchinson
Kendall Simmons
Logan Mankins
Davin Joseph
Ben Grubbs
Branden Albert
Mike Iupati
James Carpenter
Danny Watkins

These are a lot more "hits" than "misses". 6/16 were All Pro.

12/91 DEs taken in the first round since 1990 have been All Pro. And there have been a lot more talented players than Ingram who turned out to be misses.

[Woods]

Who is the better prospect and by how much?

From what I can make out reading various blogs, posts, etc., DeCastro may be the best OG prospect in the last 5 years.

As for Ingram, he seems like a very good prospect, but this draft is not noted for pass rush DEs/LBs like in previous drafts, and Ingram rises close to the top as a result.

From what I can make out, DeCastro is generally regarded as the better prospect between the two by a reasonable degree. (Again, this is going by the so-called experts.)

Now, my preference is to get another pass rusher because I think we can get a quality OG later in this Draft. However, I don't think it's wise to potentially pass up on perhaps a muli-year Pro Bowl OG, when that also is a need position and maybe reach for a good player, but not a potentially great player.

DeCastro seems to have the potential to be a great player according to the "experts".

We'll have to see how the Cowboys staff ranks the two players on their overall board.

[This is Our Year]

Put me down for DeCastro or Jenkins

[TheCount]

So you would rather watch Eli Manning stand there for ten seconds shredding our defense while Romo stands on the sidelines helpless?? The Saints have the best guards in football, how did that work out for them? Not saying a good oline isn't important but the Boys have invested plenty of draft choices lately on the oline, how many edge rushers and dlineman have they drafted?

Works out great for the Saints, they scored 30+ pts with 5 offensive turnovers.

[MichaelWinicki]

So you would rather watch Eli Manning stand there for ten seconds shredding our defense while Romo stands on the sidelines helpless?? The Saints have the best guards in football, how did that work out for them? Not saying a good oline isn't important but the Boys have invested plenty of draft choices lately on the oline, how many edge rushers and dlineman have they drafted?

How much time did Eli need to complete the 5 yard-out to Victor Cruz?

I got news for you it wouldn't have mattered who was rushing the passer.

Are you OK with 5 rushing TD's this past season?

Re-watch both Cowboy/Giant games and tell me if you think Dallas offense was consistently winning along the line of scrimmage.

[Oh_Canada]

Works out great for the Saints, they scored 30+ pts with 5 offensive turnovers.

Yes and THEY LOST TO ALEX SMITH because there defense generates little pass rush. Two long drives to a stiff of a QB in the final four minutes.

[Oh_Canada]

How much time did Eli need to complete the 5 yard-out to Victor Cruz?

I got news for you it wouldn't have mattered who was rushing the passer.

Are you OK with 5 rushing TD's this past season?

Re-watch both Cowboy/Giant games and tell me if you think Dallas offense was consistently winning along the line of scrimmage.

We can go round and round...how many times was Eli on his back?? You're also disregarding the first meeting...how many points did the Cowboys put up??? How many did the Giants put up? Was there a time in that game you really thought the defense would be able to stop Eli?

[MichaelWinicki]

We can go round and round...how many times was Eli on his back?? You're also disregarding the first meeting...how many points did the Cowboys put up??? How many did the Giants put up? Was there a point in that game you really thought the defense would be able to stop Eli?

The first game yeah, I thought the Cowboy defense could stop Manning.

The end of the game was as much about confusion in the secondary as it was the lack of a pass rush.

The second game? The offense misfired because the offense line wasn't good enough.

Tuck & Canty vs Kosier, Costa and the scrub from the Redskins.

It was almost unfair.

Let's make it a little more fair the upcoming season shall we?

[burmafrd]

We can go round and round...how many times was Eli on his back?? You're also disregarding the first meeting...how many points did the Cowboys put up??? How many did the Giants put up? Was there a time in that game you really thought the defense would be able to stop Eli?

and with a better offensive line we could either outscore them or run the ball late and eat up the clock.

You seem determined to not protect Romo.

Why?

[big dog cowboy]

But a piece of cheesecake from the "Cheesecake Factory" is a whole lot different from the piece you're going to get from "Bob's Supermarket".



Have you ever tried the cheesecake from Bob's Supermarket?


:laugh2:

[jnday]

and with a better offensive line we could either outscore them or run the ball late and eat up the clock.

You seem determined to not protect Romo.

Why?

You are making a great point here . Romo has had serious injuries in both of the last two seasons . How much more can he take ? This team has a zero chance to go anywhere without him . The defense can be the best in the league and the Cowboys would still be lucky to win five games without him .

[Oh_Canada]

and with a better offensive line we could either outscore them or run the ball late and eat up the clock.

You seem determined to not protect Romo.

Why?

That's hillarious....the Cowboys drafted an LT and two guards last year. The best guard in football who also happens to be a FA was drafted in the fourth round...the Saints other guard who is probably top five was drafted in the fifth. I never said not to draft a guard, go ahead and pick Konz or another guard in the second round if you want to, but the defense needs MORE help. They have one player who provides a consistent pass rush....one. It's time that changes.

I love the idea about outscoring them btw...like the Saints and Pack did this year right? What was the single biggest difference between the Packers of last year and this year? Clay Matthews ten less sacks maybe? A defense that played like a sieve?

[Oh_Canada]

The first game yeah, I thought the Cowboy defense could stop Manning.

The end of the game was as much about confusion in the secondary as it was the lack of a pass rush.

The second game? The offense misfired because the offense line wasn't good enough.

Tuck & Canty vs Kosier, Costa and the scrub from the Redskins.

It was almost unfair.

Let's make it a little more fair the upcoming season shall we?

Well I have faith that Arkin and Nagy improve as well as Kowalski...I do think they need to draft Konz, Silatou and pick up and/or FA (Wells?) as well. I like the direction the line is taking and all I am saying is that using a high pick might be better spent on an impact edge rusher who can change a game with a single play.
To me Ingram represents everything this defense needs, a player with fire, versatility and can get to the QB.

[VACowboy]

So you would rather watch Eli Manning stand there for ten seconds shredding our defense while Romo stands on the sidelines helpless?? The Saints have the best guards in football, how did that work out for them?

None of this is pertinent to the point, at least not mine.

We need pass rushers, I grant you. But we also need interior OL help, and selecting an empirically lesser player to fix the pass rush just because someone sees it as a greater need is a strategy that will lead straight to mediocrity. You just don't pass on talented guys who have demonstrated themselves to be special players. I believe in drafting BPA with an eye toward team need: We definitely need a guard, and unless a player really slides, DeCastro is far and away the best player likely to be there at #14.

Not saying a good oline isn't important but the Boys have invested plenty of draft choices lately on the oline, how many edge rushers and dlineman have they drafted?

Would you be happier had we spent the picks we've used on front-seven players to select offensive linemen, and vice versa? Ware, Spears, Carpenter and Spencer were all first-rounders. Lee and Carter were taken in the second. How many OL has Jerry picked in the first two rounds? I know that the team has drafted plenty of OL over the past decade, but almost none of them have come in the first couple of rounds.

Which is also beside the point. The issue is, at least for me, that DeCastro is a rare talent at a position of huge need; Ingram is maybe the second best pass rusher in a weak class.

[Randy White]

I actually like that idea a lot. Though it would probably mean we are going to miss out on most of those good 2nd round corners.

You give me Ingram or Curry plus DeCastro or Glenn and they can have all the corners in this draft. I'd take my chances in free agency with middle class free agent CBs as long as they're 28 years old or younger. Interior protection and pass rush taken care of ?

let's roll.

[Dough Boy]

That's the one right there.

When was the last time a guard was projected at this point of the draft to be knocking at the door of the top-10 picks?

To say you can get another guard later in the draft is easy.

But a piece of cheesecake from the "Cheesecake Factory" is a whole lot different from the piece you're going to get from "Bob's Supermarket".

I still wonder about Ingram's consistency.

It's a big difference from the 11 tackle, 3.5 sack game vs Auburn and the 1 tackle, zero sack games vs Kentucky, Georgia, Tennessee and the Citadel.

That's 4 games, 4 total tackles, no sacks.

I'm sure some will say, "Oh those games don't matter".

Well that's the same type of inconsistency many talk about with Spencer.

Mike, I'm a fan of drafting DeCastro at one. But the 4 games you mention are not fair representation of Ingram. He didn't play vs Kentucky because of an ankle sprain, and the game vs the Citadel they only attempted 8 passes. No need to bang on Ingram to bump up DeCastro. DeCastro is a beast and Ingram is no chump.

[geeter]

That's hillarious....the Cowboys drafted an LT and two guards last year.

Yeah, and the 1st Rd, 9th pick-Tackle (Tron) was a home run.

The two guards, thats a story to be seen-Arkin 4th Rd and Nagy 7th Rd.

With the likes of Sam Young 6th Rd (2010) Robert Brewster-3rd Rd (2009) James Marten 3rd Rd (2007) Pat McQuistan 7th Rd and E J Whitely 7th Rd (2006) Rob Petiti 6th Rd (2005) Jacob Rogers 2nd Rd and Stephen Peterson 3rd Rd (2004) Al Johnson 2nd Rd and Justin Bates 7th Rd (2003) Tyson Walter 6th Rd (2002) Matt Lehr 5th Rd and Charron Dorsey 7th Rd (2001) Soloman Page 2nd Rd and Kelvin Garman 7th Rd (1999) shows alot of misses for the way Dallas drafts lineman.

Only Doug Free 4th Rd (2007)and Andre Gourode 2nd Rd(2002) have been the lonesome wolfs in those 12yrs.

Historically, the Cowboys are pathetic at drafting lineman. So this gobblely**** that lineman can be had in the later rounds is not true for Dallas in a 12 yr. span. However, the good news, they draft great lineman in the 1st Rd. Get Decastro in the 1st Rd.


The best guard in football who also happens to be a FA was drafted in the fourth round..the Saints other guard who is probably top five was drafted in the fifth.

You can't credit the Cowboys for how other teams do in their draft. see above.

I never said not to draft a guard, go ahead and pick Konz or another guard in the second round if you want to, but the defense needs MORE help. They have one player who provides a consistent pass rush....one. It's time that changes.

Konz has a rare blood disease and takes medication for it, his career can be cut short at any moment while playing. To high a risk for Cowboys. Draft DeCastro, plug and play, and watch him be set at his position for 10yrs.

I love the idea about outscoring them btw...like the Saints and Pack did this year right? What was the single biggest difference between the Packers of last year and this year? Clay Matthews ten less sacks maybe? A defense that played like a sieve?

The Saints and the Packers have already won SB's of lately, I would've like to be in their shoes. Also, you forgot to mention the Patriots and Giants who did win and the losses of the mighty defensive teams of SF and Ravens.

[Idgit]

I'm taking Ingram. You can do a ton to improve this interior line by signing an OC in FA and taking a second round OG. The options for improving the pass rush are a lot fewer, and a lot more expensive.

You never have to take a guard in the first round, and the benefits of having the best one over the benefits of having the second or third best one in this class aren't all that significant. So much of how OL play is based on their technique and weight room development over their first two years.

By the time the draft gets here, anyway, I don't expect Ingram to still be on the board. DeCastro will be, though, and he's a good consolation prize. I'd take him over the third CB, any day.

[burmafrd]

I'm taking Ingram. You can do a ton to improve this interior line by signing an OC in FA and taking a second round OG. The options for improving the pass rush are a lot fewer, and a lot more expensive.

You never have to take a guard in the first round, and the benefits of having the best one over the benefits of having the second or third best one in this class aren't all that significant. So much of how OL play is based on their technique and weight room development over their first two years.

By the time the draft gets here, anyway, I don't expect Ingram to still be on the board. DeCastro will be, though, and he's a good consolation prize. I'd take him over the third CB, any day.


someone else willing to see Romo on the IR

[Idgit]

someone else willing to see Romo on the IR

By massively upgrading the OC position and using our second round pick on a position that normally starts going off the board in round two. Exactly.

Decastro has become Tony's only hope now? Please.

[cobra]

DeCastro and it is not even close.

Those saying Ingram because we "need a pass rush" are begging the question.

Yes, it would be great to get a dominant pass rusher at 14. BUT INGRAM IS NOT A DOMINANT PASS RUSHER. It is foolish to say we need to draft Ingram because we need to improve our pass rush because Ingram will not do that.

Anthony Spencer is a better pass rusher than Melvin Ingram. If you replace Anthony Spencer with Melvin Ingram, your pass rush will decline, not improve. Spencer is more athletic than Ingram. Spencer has a better first step. Spencer was more productive in college (senior years: Spencer 10.5 sacks, 16 TFL; Ingram 8.5 sacks, 13.5 TFL).

Ingram is not some pass rushing stud, so if you are wanting to draft him for that reason, then you are making a mistake.

If, in your mind, your analysis is "I prefer a dominant pass rusher over DeCastro at 14" that's fine, but you have to realize that there is no dominant pass rusher available at 14. Ingram isn't. Upshaw isn't. So while you might prefer to replace Spencer at 14, that option is not available.

This is a no brainer. You take DeCastro and either replace Spencer in FA or re-sign him.

[cobra]

I'm taking Ingram. You can do a ton to improve this interior line by signing an OC in FA and taking a second round OG. The options for improving the pass rush are a lot fewer, and a lot more expensive.

Why on earth would you think Ingram and his 8.5 sacks and slow first step would improve the pass rush?

Highly ranked OLB prospect does not equal "dominant pass rusher."

By the time the draft gets here, anyway, I don't expect Ingram to still be on the board.

I cannot fathom why a team would draft Ingram before us. He has no elite quality.

Let me clarify this: Ingram is a good ball player. He offers versatility and some playmaking ability. But he has no plus attributes. He is not a physical freak. He has not shown elite production. He factors into a quality player and starter, but he projects to the type of player that angers so many people about Spencer--that is, he projects as a guy who will be good in the run game and be a solid OLB with some pass rushing ability. He does not project to be a Ware, a Mario Williams, or a Suggs. He's a SOLB type.

[TheCount]

Why on earth would you think Ingram and his 8.5 sacks and slow first step would improve the pass rush?

For what it's worth, it's easy to get the idea he's got a slow first step from the Youtube videos, but all week in Mobile, he showed that he can get off the ball when he wants to.

[cobra]

For what it's worth, it's easy to get the idea he's got a slow first step from the Youtube videos, but all week in Mobile, he showed that he can get off the ball when he wants to.

I'm not basing that on youtube videos but on everything I've read about him.

Yes, he does have some lateral quickness--he is a good player that is why he is a 1st round prospect--but he does not have the elite pass-rushing explosion off the ball.

I'm pretty sure that Anthony Spencer graded out better than Ingram for every pass-rushing metric you could rely upon. And Spencer had a great Senior Bowl week too.

Ingram has never shown to be a dominant pass rusher in actual games. He has no measurable to suggest he would be. So what exactly is the basis for assuming he'd be a great pass rusher in the NFL? I think for many, they assume that merely because he is the highest rated 3-4 OLB must mean he is a great pass rusher without understanding the type of player Ingram is.

[MichaelWinicki]

I'm not basing that on youtube videos but on everything I've read about him.

Yes, he does have some lateral quickness--he is a good player that is why he is a 1st round prospect--but he does not have the elite pass-rushing explosion off the ball.

I'm pretty sure that Anthony Spencer graded out better than Ingram for every pass-rushing metric you could rely upon. And Spencer had a great Senior Bowl week too.

Ingram has never shown to be a dominant pass rusher in actual games. He has no measurable to suggest he would be. So what exactly is the basis for assuming he'd be a great pass rusher in the NFL? I think for many, they assume that merely because he is the highest rated 3-4 OLB must mean he is a great pass rusher without understanding the type of player Ingram is.

Great post.

[burmafrd]

Ingram is Almost Anthony part Deux

[garyv]

go Defense in the next two Rounds (2nd and 3rd) looking for Secondary help and Pass Rush

[hipfake08]

Depending on Free Agency is the direction I go in.
We sign a TOP quality interior OL then I may think about Ingram.

[Oh_Canada]

Ingram has never shown to be a dominant pass rusher in actual games. He has no measurable to suggest he would be. So what exactly is the basis for assuming he'd be a great pass rusher in the NFL? I think for many, they assume that merely because he is the highest rated 3-4 OLB must mean he is a great pass rusher without understanding the type of player Ingram is.

Except that Ingram was asked to play all along the line at SC including tackle on most third downs, he has never had the opportunity to consistently pin his ears back and go after the QB. During Senior Bowl week the guy dominated pretty much every tackle he went against and looked plenty quick enough to be a very good pass rusher at the next level.
If you're going by measurables exclusively than why isn't Aaron Maybin the greatest OLB to ever play the game?

[burmafrd]

Except that Ingram was asked to play all along the line at SC including tackle on most third downs, he has never had the opportunity to consistently pin his ears back and go after the QB. During Senior Bowl week the guy dominated pretty much every tackle he went against and looked plenty quick enough to be a very good pass rusher at the next level.
If you're going by measurables exclusively than why isn't Aaron Maybin the greatest OLB to ever play the game?


and with all those oppurtunities over this last year he did not exactly shine, did he?

Many Pro DC's do the same thing- move a guy all over to get mismatches. Fact is Ingram had a lot of chances to show something and most of the time he did not.

[the_h0wey]

If both are there at 14, who would you take and why? I'm really torn on this one. Would love to get someone to help keep Tony upright but we are so desperate for a pass rush... Close call!

There is never a for sure thing with any player drafted, but with everything I have read DeCastro is thought of as more of a lock than Upshaw.

[burmafrd]

There is never a for sure thing with any player drafted, but with everything I have read DeCastro is thought of as more of a lock than Upshaw.


for our needs, which is Pass rush O line and Secondary, Decastro is the one most likely to meet one and is also the surest thing at 14 and frankly the most likely to be there.

[burmafrd]

the most talked about players that can give us a pass rush are Couples, Ingram and Upshaw. NONE of them are as sure a thing as Decastro is. Of the CBs, the only one that is a reasonably sure thing is Claiborne who will be long gone. Jenkins is a pot head, so is Kirkpatrick. And that is about it for CBs that by talent are anywhere near the level of Decastro.

[cobra]

Except that Ingram was asked to play all along the line at SC including tackle on most third downs, he has never had the opportunity to consistently pin his ears back and go after the QB.

And there is no reason to think he would excel in that job. Here is how you scout a player: (1) you look at past performance as an indicator of future performance; (2) you look at measureables to see if whether with the right coaching, an otherwise unproductive player would be more productive (e.g., Pierre-Paul).

In category (1), Ingram has not shown to be anything close to worth a 1st round pick if you are trying to draft a pass rusher. If you are looking for a complete run stopping SOLB and part time pass rusher that offers schematic versatility (i.e., a Spencer clone) then Ingram is a good option. But he isn't any better than Spencer so drafting him makes no sense.

In category (2), again Ingram does not have the measureables that blow you away. His size is sub-optimal and he has short arms. He lacks elite explosion off the ball. He has good lateral quickness, which is nice and some other nice qualities, but not the measureables that tell you he will be elite pass rusher.

If you are drafting Ingram as a pass rusher, than you have failed at the draft. If you are drafting him to play the Spencer role, that just makes no sense.

During Senior Bowl week the guy dominated pretty much every tackle he went against and looked plenty quick enough to be a very good pass rusher at the next level.

He didn't dominate every tackle. That is a gross exaggeration. He showed he is a good football player that exhibits skills sufficient to warrant a 1st round grade.

And he showed nothing in the game or game situation.

If you're going by measurables exclusively than why isn't Aaron Maybin the greatest OLB to ever play the game?

I'm not going by measurables. The point of the draft is that the guy has to either have measurables or proven record. Ingram has neither.

He is a guy that shows you he will be a hard-working SOLB that will be solid against the run, offer you occasional pass-rushing, and offer you schematic versatility. He is Anthony Spencer or a less-talented and less-productive LaMarr Woodley (and that comparison is unfair to Woodley because Woodley won every trophy and was very, very productive in college--and still went in the 2nd round).

[tm1119]

I think the big issue here is what talent is left at these 2 position in rounds 2 and 3. At OG we would be left to decide bewtween- Osemele, Zeitler, Washington, Silatolu, and Kelemte.
At OLB there would be- Curry, Lewis, Irvin, Branch, McClellin, Lindsay.

There is also the free agency options...OG- Nicks, Grubbs, Mathis, Brisiel, Scott, Carey, Zuttah.
OLB- Mario Williams, Ahmad Brooks, Manny Lawson, Cliff Avril, Robert Mathis, Roth, Anthony Spencer.

Personally, if we cant land 1 of Nick, Grubbs, or Mathis in FA then I draft DeCastro without a doubt. I think we can fill OLB adequately whether its with Spencer again or with someone like Mathis or a rookie like Irvin or Branch.

[Idgit]

Why on earth would you think Ingram and his 8.5 sacks and slow first step would improve the pass rush?

Highly ranked OLB prospect does not equal "dominant pass rusher."

Because he's a clear upgrade to the team at a position of need, assuming Spencer is not resigned. And that's a more important need than OG when a perfectly capable OG starter is going to be there in the second.

I cannot fathom why a team would draft Ingram before us. He has no elite quality.

Let me clarify this: Ingram is a good ball player. He offers versatility and some playmaking ability. But he has no plus attributes. He is not a physical freak. He has not shown elite production. He factors into a quality player and starter, but he projects to the type of player that angers so many people about Spencer--that is, he projects as a guy who will be good in the run game and be a solid OLB with some pass rushing ability. He does not project to be a Ware, a Mario Williams, or a Suggs. He's a SOLB type.

Bear in mind that you're talking to someone who's not at all angered by what we've gotten out of Spencer.

You need complete players who can rush the passer, and lots of them, on the DL. And you don't select them based off of how their college evaluations compare to the evaluations of players you let walk. You select them on the basis of what player, when you're on the clock, is going to help your team the most during his career. And whether you think you can develop that player. You also have to consider what's likely to be left later in the draft at other positions of need.

Here's what Bunting had to say about Ingram's pass rush, fwiw. Not glowing, but skills we're going to be in need off come draft time if we don't break the bank elsewhere.

Ingram is the least impressive prospect physically, but he's the most natural pass rusher of the three, which is funny because I think he was recruited as a running back. He had the ability to work the speed rush and bend around the edge. He was sudden on the inside when they asked him to work a counter move. He's got this nifty little spin rush, and he worked a bull rush. That's four different ways he could get after the quarterback.

I thought all three were very good. They're all sure 1st round grades. I'm going to move Upshaw up in my ratings just a little bit because he's so safe, and so powerful. You should have seen him at the weight in. He's strapped together. He's this little chunky guy, but shredded.

I thought Brandon Thompson (Clemson) was very good as well. He wasn't talked about as much, from what I've seen, but he was very good as well.

[Oh_Canada]

and with all those oppurtunities over this last year he did not exactly shine, did he?

Many Pro DC's do the same thing- move a guy all over to get mismatches. Fact is Ingram had a lot of chances to show something and most of the time he did not.

Ok-we'll see how good he is when he gets to the pros.

[Dash28]

Ok-we'll see how good he is when he gets to the pros.
Ingram is going to be a playmaker.

DeCastro is the selection for me though right now.

[burmafrd]

Ok-we'll see how good he is when he gets to the pros.

as long as we do not use a first on Ingram I wish him a fine career.

[burmafrd]

Because he's a clear upgrade to the team at a position of need, assuming Spencer is not resigned. And that's a more important need than OG when a perfectly capable OG starter is going to be there in the second.



Bear in mind that you're talking to someone who's not at all angered by what we've gotten out of Spencer.

You need complete players who can rush the passer, and lots of them, on the DL. And you don't select them based off of how their college evaluations compare to the evaluations of players you let walk. You select them on the basis of what player, when you're on the clock, is going to help your team the most during his career. And whether you think you can develop that player. You also have to consider what's likely to be left later in the draft at other positions of need.

Here's what Bunting had to say about Ingram's pass rush, fwiw. Not glowing, but skills we're going to be in need off come draft time if we don't break the bank elsewhere.


the fact that you are satisfied with Spencer disqualifies you from this thread

[jobberone]

Why on earth would you think Ingram and his 8.5 sacks and slow first step would improve the pass rush?

Highly ranked OLB prospect does not equal "dominant pass rusher."



I cannot fathom why a team would draft Ingram before us. He has no elite quality.

Let me clarify this: Ingram is a good ball player. He offers versatility and some playmaking ability. But he has no plus attributes. He is not a physical freak. He has not shown elite production. He factors into a quality player and starter, but he projects to the type of player that angers so many people about Spencer--that is, he projects as a guy who will be good in the run game and be a solid OLB with some pass rushing ability. He does not project to be a Ware, a Mario Williams, or a Suggs. He's a SOLB type.

I agree with your assessment of Melvin. I'm high on him and I've followed him for three years. He's from my alma mater. Ingram is very talented but he will not be an elite pass rusher as an OLB. He will be a good SOLB but not great IMO. He is versatile and can play a few snaps at DE or even DT in the nickel package. My thoughts are he would be a Pro Bowl player at SILB even at 275. He's that fast and quick. He's too in between for the other positions except SOLB. I doubt anyone will play him at SILB though and I wouldn't draft him at 14 to play a position he doesn't play regularly although he's played all along the front for Carolina.

Very versatile and very fast for 275 but not that fast for an OLB. I would look at someone else at 14.

[Idgit]

the fact that you are satisfied with Spencer disqualifies you from this thread

I didn't say 'satisfied'. I said I'm not angry he didn't turn into a better player and I wouldn't let it keep me from drafting another talented prospect.

If you have an issue with that stance, disqualify your own opinion, because it's not worth what you think it is.

[Gaede]

the most talked about players that can give us a pass rush are Couples, Ingram and Upshaw. NONE of them are as sure a thing as Decastro is.

Hate to beat a dead horse, but nobody is a sure thing in the draft.

I know it's annoying to say that, but it's the truth. To say one player is more reliable than another when neither have played a single down or spent a single second in the NFL is a ridiculous argument.

[burmafrd]

Hate to beat a dead horse, but nobody is a sure thing in the draft.

I know it's annoying to say that, but it's the truth. To say one player is more reliable than another when neither have played a single down or spent a single second in the NFL is a ridiculous argument.


then you just said that one might as well throw darts at a list and pick whoever the dart lands on. Forget interviews and watching game film, etc.

[Gaede]

then you just said that one might as well throw darts at a list and pick whoever the dart lands on. Forget interviews and watching game film, etc.

No. It just means you should be more cautious when comparing prospects based on their 'reliability'.

[burmafrd]

No. It just means you should be more cautious when comparing prospects based on their 'reliability'.

BS. DeCastro is clearly more 'reliable' so that still makes your point non existent.

[Gaede]

BS. DeCastro is clearly more 'reliable' so that still makes your point non existent.

No, it's bull**** to say someone is clearly more reliable when 'reliability' as it relates to the NFL is a quality no one can really predict or discern. What makes him 'clearly' more reliable? That you like him better? Or because he's a guard from Stanford, whereas Ingram is a DE from S. Carolina?

[jswalker1981]

You mean like if the guard gets pushed back in the pocket so the QB can't step and get the ball to the receiver breaking 2 yards beyond the corner down at the 20 yard-line...

Or if it's 4 and 1, and you're on the team's 42, with 56 seconds to go and you're behind by a point– And the guard you're suppose to run behind get's stuffed at the line of scrimmage so you gain zero yards on your line plunge.


Yeah, I can see why guards aren't considered "game changers".

:bow: I think drafting a guard like DeCastro is a very sexy pick.