Which Pass Rusher Has The Chance To Be Elite?

[NeonDeion21]

We have all discussed who we like better between Courtney Upshaw, Quinton Coples, and Melvin Ingram. But guys such as Mercilus and Perry have caught my eye.

My question is, what player has the most upside to develop into a top pass rusher? I think as of now I would go with Whitney Mercilus. Your thoughts?

[tm1119]

For OLB's... Melvin Ingram, Nick Perry, Bruce Irvin. In that order.

Ingram is a versatile big athlete that can be used to get after the QB all over the field. His combo of size with a quick 1st step is pretty rare. Fairly polished already and could contribute right away. He could stand to lose 5-10 lbs if drafted by a 3-4 team though to help his agility and quickness.

Perry is a pure athlete with a great 1st step and shows good agility to get around the tackle. Still young and a bit raw, would have to learn how to rush the passer other than using his speed around the edge. Upside is very high though.

Irvin is another athlete with a ton of speed. Also has a motor unlike most that should help him excel at the next level. Only problem is that hes undersized at 6'2 245 so its unlikely that he could be anything other than a pass rush specialist. Could be a great guy to have if you already have an OLB to team him with(Spencer) so that he doesnt have to play running downs.

[realtick]

Don't sleep on Vinny Curry.

[MichaelWinicki]

I'm not sold on any of them being "elite". I'm seeing a lot of Spencer clones. Guys that can get 6 sacks a season... But double-digits?

Nah.

Are there going to be at least a couple of guys who end up being double-digit sacks guys?

Of course.

They just may not be first-rounders.

Someone posted a kinda-study comparing 1st round drafted guards and 1st round drafted pass-rushers and the pass-rushers come up very small as far as being able to convert their lofty draft status to actual NFL production.

[tm1119]

Don't sleep on Vinny Curry.

Im going to need to see the combine #'s on him. To see where he stacks up against the other OLB's in terms of agility and short burst speed. I read a few reports after the senior bowl that said he would be best suited as an 4-3 end after watching him practice. He apparently lacks the athleticism to be a stand up pass rusher is what the reports said. I did like him before I saw that though, so we'll see.

[NeonDeion21]

I am not a fan of Irvin. Very athletic but hates contact.

[RS12]

Coples is the only one I see as elite if he wants it. Chandler Jones is an intriguing sleeper.

[CCBoy]

I have my eye on some larger defensive ends/tackles that could have affect at defensive end in the 3-4...and I'm looking for what boils down to a pain in the butt to keep up with, but physically engages an offensive tackle/guard in run suport. To consistently defeat a double team, one still has to defeat the weaker of the two blockers.

A dominant nose tackle doesn't appear to be in this draft...but there appear to be some strong and developmental types that can be had.

[Oh_Canada]

I'm not sold on any of them being "elite". I'm seeing a lot of Spencer clones. Guys that can get 6 sacks a season... But double-digits?

Nah.

Are there going to be at least a couple of guys who end up being double-digit sacks guys?

Of course.

They just may not be first-rounders.

Someone posted a kinda-study comparing 1st round drafted guards and 1st round drafted pass-rushers and the pass-rushers come up very small as far as being able to convert their lofty draft status to actual NFL production.

There are also many more pro bowl guards drafted out of the first round than other positions.

[jobberone]

I'd go after Mario and consider moving up for Coples. Like Ingram but I'm not sold on him being more than solid at SOLB.

[dallasfaniac]

Chandler Jones is an intriguing sleeper.

I like him too but think he might be best off putting on some weight and becoming a 3-4 defensive end. He has a quick first step but I just can't see him dropping into coverage at all. Sometimes he almost looks like he's not used to his body, but that could have been his knee injury.

[jterrell]

I'm not sold on any of them being "elite". I'm seeing a lot of Spencer clones. Guys that can get 6 sacks a season... But double-digits?

Nah.

Are there going to be at least a couple of guys who end up being double-digit sacks guys?

Of course.

They just may not be first-rounders.

Someone posted a kinda-study comparing 1st round drafted guards and 1st round drafted pass-rushers and the pass-rushers come up very small as far as being able to convert their lofty draft status to actual NFL production.

I didn't see the study but can validate its accuracy.
There is no doubt you get a far better shot at a Pro Bowler when you draft OG. Especially since on average 1.5 OGs go per r1 (I never go back more than 20 years because football has changed). Pass rushers? You get 6-9 drafted depending upon how broad you make the definition per r1. So pass rushers are competing with far more r1 draftees for the same Pro Bowl nods.
It would be impossible to have a high percentage make it.

At the same time that's why OGs get taken often in r2 and r3. The 3-5 OGs are often there in those rounds whereas at pass rushers you are into the 7-15 range.

You only get so many shots to draft top 15. Last time we did go pass rusher we selected Demarcus Ware. I didn't look it up but I am pretty sure he made a couple Pro Bowls:) Smith and TNew were the only other top 15s since '03.

[CCBoy]

I didn't see the study but can validate its accuracy.
There is no doubt you get a far better shot at a Pro Bowler when you draft OG. Especially since on average 1.5 OGs go per r1 (I never go back more than 20 years because football has changed). Pass rushers? You get 6-9 drafted depending upon how broad you make the definition per r1. So pass rushers are competing with far more r1 draftees for the same Pro Bowl nods.
It would be impossible to have a high percentage make it.

At the same time that's why OGs get taken often in r2 and r3. The 3-5 OGs are often there in those rounds whereas at pass rushers you are into the 7-15 range.

You only get so many shots to draft top 15. Last time we did go pass rusher we selected Demarcus Ware. I didn't look it up but I am pretty sure he made a couple Pro Bowls:) Smith and TNew were the only other top 15s since '03.

Change in patterns, are akin to culinary habits which can clog arteries. Since taste is still at issue, everyone still wants to please Mom and devour her special meatballs.

So, what is described above is still akin to a breathing exercise for an accomplished marksman in how to protect the pulling of the trigger in a match.

Since by culling upward, the transition point of a selection at 14 is at the cusp of the above and selectively removed pick place in the first round.

Pointing out a breathing exercise is fine and dandy, but now the target presentation itself is at question, what now defines your pulling the trigger on this set of pop up targets....mid round range?

One still defines value, and applies technique there...breathing is more difficult when one runs a hundred yards between burms and target engagements...and then throw in rain to haze sight alignments as well.

Now, instead of starting at the farthest targets and moving shorter, go from short and go to farther away targets and still engage that target successfully...

as the target will still present in the competition. Thus, a new application procedure has to be utilized to hit the same target. But the same target hit needed for competition.

Simple measurement? Try starting at a 100 meter burm and then finalizing at a 500 meter burm now. Sure, firing a hand weapon at a popup and 25 meter range is a lot easier, it merely needs coordination and a stable platform to be successful.

[Noryb]

For the draft experts on this board, what is it that you don't like about this guy? From the clips I've seen he seems to have a good bull rush too.

Just curious!

Whitney Mercilus*, DE, Illinois
Height: 6-4. Weight: 265.
Projected 40 Time: 4.65.
Projected Round (2012): 1.
12/26/11: A typical game from Mercilus in 2011 featured a sack and a forced fumble. He leads the nation in sacks and forced fumbles. Thus far Mercilus has 52 tackles with 19.5 tackles for a loss, 14.5 sacks and nine forced fumbles entering the Fight Hunger Bowl against UCLA.

The junior has shown no mercy this season to offensive tackles and quarterbacks. All year long, Mercilus has been beating tackles with a combination of speed, strength and athleticism. He had a good game against Ohio State offensive tackle Mike Adams and Wisconsin's future NFL linemen. Mercilus is extremely fast and gets upfield in a hurry. His speed puts offensive tackles on their heels, and he has the athleticism to drop his hips and shoulder to turn towards the quarterback. Mercilus' strength can take linemen by surprise, and he has a powerful bull rush.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2012OLB3-4.php

[Randy White]

We have all discussed who we like better between Courtney Upshaw, Quinton Coples, and Melvin Ingram. But guys such as Mercilus and Perry have caught my eye.

My question is, what player has the most upside to develop into a top pass rusher? I think as of now I would go with Whitney Mercilus. Your thoughts?


Me too.. As soon as I read the title of your thread, he was the first guy that came to mind.

and I really like Ingram too, but Mercilus, physically, looks like another JPP..

[MichaelWinicki]

For the draft experts on this board, what is it that you don't like about this guy? From the clips I've seen he seems to have a good bull rush too.

Just curious!

Whitney Mercilus*, DE, Illinois
Height: 6-4. Weight: 265.
Projected 40 Time: 4.65.
Projected Round (2012): 1.
12/26/11: A typical game from Mercilus in 2011 featured a sack and a forced fumble. He leads the nation in sacks and forced fumbles. Thus far Mercilus has 52 tackles with 19.5 tackles for a loss, 14.5 sacks and nine forced fumbles entering the Fight Hunger Bowl against UCLA.

The junior has shown no mercy this season to offensive tackles and quarterbacks. All year long, Mercilus has been beating tackles with a combination of speed, strength and athleticism. He had a good game against Ohio State offensive tackle Mike Adams and Wisconsin's future NFL linemen. Mercilus is extremely fast and gets upfield in a hurry. His speed puts offensive tackles on their heels, and he has the athleticism to drop his hips and shoulder to turn towards the quarterback. Mercilus' strength can take linemen by surprise, and he has a powerful bull rush.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2012OLB3-4.php

The kid has good numbers... For 1 season. That's something to consider.

I like the speed/height/weight. If he can stay below 4.7 at the combine that bodes well for him.

We also don't know if he's as good a pass rusher from the stand-up position as he is from the sprinter-stance used as a down lineman. It can make a difference.

[realtick]

The kid has good numbers... For 1 season. That's something to consider.

I like the speed/height/weight. If he can stay below 4.7 at the combine that bodes well for him.

We also don't know if he's as good a pass rusher from the stand-up position as he is from the sprinter-stance used as a down lineman. It can make a difference.

I'd be more interested in his burst shown in the 10-yard splits and the 3-cone drills.

[MichaelWinicki]

I'd be more interested in his burst shown in the 10-yard splits and the 3-cone drills.

No question. Those have more merit.

But still it's a valid question if this guy (or any guy) can be as effective rushing the passer from the stand-up position as opposed to the 3-pt stance. Some are. Some aren't.

There are some that feel the stand-up position is what's holding Spencer back. There are also some feel neither Upshaw nor Curry are going to be very effective pass-rushers out of the stand-up position.

[ABQcowboyJR]

Just as a pass rusher I think Quinton Coples has the best opportunity to be an elite pass rusher. Outside of QB's I think he is the best player in the draft.

[burmafrd]

Just as a pass rusher I think Quinton Coples has the best opportunity to be an elite pass rusher. Outside of QB's I think he is the best player in the draft.

I don't like the 'business decisions' he seemed to make this year. Do it once and you will do it again.

[ABQcowboyJR]

I don't like the 'business decisions' he seemed to make this year. Do it once and you will do it again.
Yeah I don't like it either. Still think he is the best in the draft though.

[MichaelWinicki]

Just as a pass rusher I think Quinton Coples has the best opportunity to be an elite pass rusher. Outside of QB's I think he is the best player in the draft.

I think the guy could be a very good pass-rushing DT in the 4-3.

But he doesn't have the first-step quickness to be a great pass rusher as a DE in the 4-3 IMO.

And with his build I don't think he would make for a good 3-4 DE.

[realtick]

I don't like the 'business decisions' he seemed to make this year. Do it once and you will do it again.

Major redflag in my book too. It's the main reason why I don't like Vontaze Burfict with anything higher than 4th rnd. pick.

[Skerr41]

I have a feeling Bruce Irvin may become the best of the bunch.

Like Realtek though, I'll be waiting to see the 3 cone drill results at the combine, that says a lot about a rushers ability to bend and not lose speed coming off the edge.

[jnday]

No question. Those have more merit.

But still it's a valid question if this guy (or any guy) can be as effective rushing the passer from the stand-up position as opposed to the 3-pt stance. Some are. Some aren't.

There are some that feel the stand-up position is what's holding Spencer back. There are also some feel neither Upshaw nor Curry are going to be very effective pass-rushers out of the stand-up position.

Not to start the 3-4/4-3 debate again , but I think there are many great prospects that don't fit the 3-4 ? Curry and Coples are just a couple . I am starting to favor the 4-3 for this reason .

[BAT]

Not to start the 3-4/4-3 debate again , but I think there are many great prospects that don't fit the 3-4 ? Curry and Coples are just a couple . I am starting to favor the 4-3 for this reason .

Cowboys already play the 4-3. Don't you read Kirwan?

[CCBoy]

Major redflag in my book too. It's the main reason why I don't like Vontaze Burfict with anything higher than 4th rnd. pick.

Myself, granted, but I still tend to seperate college attitude to one gained at the professional ranks. Unless that involve criminal indecisions as well...

[burmafrd]

Myself, granted, but I still tend to seperate college attitude to one gained at the professional ranks. Unless that involve criminal indecisions as well...

frankly a guy making 'business decisions' in college means a lot more then some want to admit

I think he is a definite possibility to be a guy that puts out in his rookie year, then slacks off until his contract year. And with the shorter contracts now that is even worse.

[CCBoy]

frankly a guy making 'business decisions' in college means a lot more then some want to admit

I think he is a definite possibility to be a guy that puts out in his rookie year, then slacks off until his contract year. And with the shorter contracts now that is even worse.

Naw, at the collegiate levels, some decisions still revert back to emotional and mood...and that hits the sporting venue due to lack of intellectual associations as well. That lack of mental association could require intensity levels as well as peer example to grasp and command commitment to. But if there are criminal types of decisions as well, then ethics is more of a problem than without those.

Base levels of athletic ability can be molded at the professional levels, as even at the collegiate levels there is an adult level of accomplishment requirement for successes. Even if not yet at the professional levels.

That is about the age transitional point that a buck sergeant would then become a staff sergeant and hopefully shortly later, a career sergeant, and sergeant first class. Career developments requires a progression over time. All time lines for good Senior NCO's are different. Same and comparably for an athlete coming from the collegiate to the professional levels. Different time lines and arrival points.

Even at advanced skill levels in the NFL, when money is the draw solely for production, the team elements diminish. Skills develop with time, but where lack of commitment and ethics are not the stopping part, then they will eventually arrive there as well. That's why even Bill Parcells had a three year window, and before drafting any player, the motivational reasons for that player are explored through the Combine, Pro Days, and invitations to Valley Ranch before the draft. Either that or they are observed in their professional careers and part of the professional scout system.

As to Coples....you have had lots of conversations with him, huh? Maybe were a coach or talked with several players before arriving at your view? Perhaps a former teacher or coach for him, you know, to validate your coarse view of him...right?

But if he goes top fifteen, what would teams then be stating concerning what you state you already judge?

[burmafrd]

Naw, at the collegiate levels, some decisions still revert back to emotional and mood...and that hits the sporting venue due to lack of intellectual associations as well. That lack of mental association could require intensity levels as well as peer example to grasp and command commitment to. But if there are criminal types of decisions as well, then ethics is more of a problem than without those.

Base levels of athletic ability can be molded at the professional levels, as even at the collegiate levels there is an adult level of accomplishment requirement for successes. Even if not yet at the professional levels.

That is about the age transitional point that a buck sergeant would then become a staff sergeant and hopefully shortly later, a career sergeant, and sergeant first class. Career developments requires a progression over time. All time lines for good Senior NCO's are different. Same and comparably for an athlete coming from the collegiate to the professional levels. Different time lines and arrival points.

Even at advanced skill levels in the NFL, when money is the draw solely for production, the team elements diminish. Skills develop with time, but where lack of commitment and ethics are not the stopping part, then they will eventually arrive there as well. That's why even Bill Parcells had a three year window, and before drafting any player, the motivational reasons for that player are explored through the Combine, Pro Days, and invitations to Valley Ranch before the draft. Either that or they are observed in their professional careers and part of the professional scout system.

As to Coples....you have had lots of conversations with him, huh? Maybe were a coach or talked with several players before arriving at your view? Perhaps a former teacher or coach for him, you know, to validate your coarse view of him...right?

But if he goes top fifteen, what would teams then be stating concerning what you state you already judge?

first rd picks are held to a higher standard; and this guy worries me. Because his problems would appear to be in his head; and those are the worst kind of problems. NYET.

[burmafrd]

there are no pass rushers this year that remind me of Von Miller last year; and frankly I do not see any of them really worthy of our first rd pick.

[jnday]

first rd picks are held to a higher standard; and this guy worries me. Because his problems would appear to be in his head; and those are the worst kind of problems. NYET.

J . Russell had motor problems at LSU . Same problems followed him to Oakland . If anything , I think money makes these problems worse .

[NeonDeion21]

there are no pass rushers this year that remind me of Von Miller last year; and frankly I do not see any of them really worthy of our first rd pick.

For me, the standard doesn't need to be Von Miller. He was the #2 pick in the draft for a reason, he is special. Even Aldon Smith who is a pass-rusher only right now was selected in the Top 10.

I think we should be looking for a guy similar to Smith however. For me, I would like to see a guy who has a bunch of untapped potential, similar to JPP and Smith, and see how he develops. If that means only being a 3rd down rusher I am okay with it.