I Think THIS Is Very Realistic...

[mperfection]

1. Take WR Mark Clayton with the #11 pick.
2. Trade the #20 pick for Darren Howard PLUS N.o.' 3rd rounder this year and maybe a mid-rounder in '06. (We may have to give up a later round pick in '05 to get a pick next year, but we should definitely get an upper round pick next year from NO).

We come away with a premiere WR, a premiere DE, we keep our coveted 2nd rounder, PLUS we pick up a 3rd rounder THIS year.

I hope (and believe) that DJ, Mike Williams & Braylon Edwards will be gone when we pick at #11. I would not use the #11 pick on Shawn Merriman.

Any takers??

[Fletch]

1. Take WR Mark Clayton with the #11 pick.
2. Trade the #20 pick for Darren Howard PLUS N.o.' 3rd rounder this year and maybe a mid-rounder in '06. (We may have to give up a later round pick in '05 to get a pick next year, but we should definitely get an upper round pick next year from NO).

We come away with a premiere WR, a premiere DE, we keep our coveted 2nd rounder, PLUS we pick up a 3rd rounder THIS year.

I hope (and believe) that DJ, Mike Williams & Braylon Edwards will be gone when we pick at #11. I would not use the #11 pick on Shawn Merriman.

Any takers??

That is definitely a different spin on the draft. I am not sure that we would consider taking Clayton @ #11. I love Mark Clayton too, but in my opinion, that would be a reach.

I do however think a deal will get reached for Darren Howard during the draft. If not, then that is fine too.

[Dough Boy]

1. Take WR Mark Clayton with the #11 pick.
2. Trade the #20 pick for Darren Howard PLUS N.o.' 3rd rounder this year and maybe a mid-rounder in '06. (We may have to give up a later round pick in '05 to get a pick next year, but we should definitely get an upper round pick next year from NO).

We come away with a premiere WR, a premiere DE, we keep our coveted 2nd rounder, PLUS we pick up a 3rd rounder THIS year.

I hope (and believe) that DJ, Mike Williams & Braylon Edwards will be gone when we pick at #11. I would not use the #11 pick on Shawn Merriman.

Any takers??

Why take Clayton so high? By all accounts, he is a mid to late 1st round guy.

I would not give up a 1st rounder for Howard, when its been reported he could be had for a 2nd and or a defensive starter. It would appear to me, that you are over paying for both Howard (giving up too much) and Clayton (drafting too high). JMO

[Dyluke]

Clayton does not warrent a #11 pick. I like him as much as the next guy, but if we are drafting a WR @11, then its going to be Mike Williams. And since he wont be there, #11 wont be a wide reciever.

[Wolverine]

1. Take WR Mark Clayton with the #11 pick.
2. Trade the #20 pick for Darren Howard PLUS N.o.' 3rd rounder this year and maybe a mid-rounder in '06. (We may have to give up a later round pick in '05 to get a pick next year, but we should definitely get an upper round pick next year from NO).

We come away with a premiere WR, a premiere DE, we keep our coveted 2nd rounder, PLUS we pick up a 3rd rounder THIS year.

I hope (and believe) that DJ, Mike Williams & Braylon Edwards will be gone when we pick at #11. I would not use the #11 pick on Shawn Merriman.

Any takers??


I cant see takin Clayton at #11. I would take Mike Williams or DJ or Merriman over Clayton at #11. I would also take Troy Williamson or Roddy White over Clayton at #20 if all 3 were there at #20.

[M'Kevon]

So, you'd keep the 2nd rounder by giving up a first rounder?

um, sure . . . :banghead:

[mperfection]

So, you'd keep the 2nd rounder by giving up a first rounder?

um, sure . . . :banghead:

Did you read my ENTIRE post?? :rolleyes:

Yes, I would keep the 2nd rounder because in giving up the 1st rounder I pick up a DE, a 3rd rounder THIS year, PLUS an upper rounder next year.

[mperfection]

Guys, I know that this is going to sound strange, but I'm not sure that Mike Williams is a sure thing to turn into a perennial Pro Bowler as some on this board would like to make him out to be. I think that Mark Clayton will start climbing the draft boards as we come closer to the draft. If he makes it past our #11 pick, I DO NOT think he will make it to the 20th pick. The guy is a playmaker, hands down! I think that Mike Williams may surprise a lot of people once he gets into the NFL. I don't think he is going to be as explosive as a lot of people make him out to be. JMO

[Seven]

Guys, I know that this is going to sound strange, but I'm not sure that Mike Williams is a sure thing to turn into a perennial Pro Bowler as some on this board would like to make him out to be. I think that Mark Clayton will start climbing the draft boards as we come closer to the draft. If he makes it past our #11 pick, I DO NOT think he will make it to the 20th pick. The guy is a playmaker, hands down! I think that Mike Williams may surprise a lot of people once he gets into the NFL. I don't think he is going to be as explosive as a lot of people make him out to be. JMO

Why?..................

[mperfection]

Why?..................

Mike Williams has a big frame, but also a penchant for putting on weight. I think he may struggle to balance his weight with speed in the NFL, which will directly affect his explosiveness. He may be able to run over some defenders, but that won't necessarily mean that he will also find the endzone as often either, although some on this board believe (vehemently) differently.

[mperfection]

I cant see takin Clayton at #11. I would take Mike Williams or DJ or Merriman over Clayton at #11. I would also take Troy Williamson or Roddy White over Clayton at #20 if all 3 were there at #20.
FYI~


Notebook: Patterson headlines 2005 Better-Than Team
April 7, 2005
By Pete Prisco
CBS SportsLine.com Senior Writer
Tell Pete your opinion!


Mark Clayton, WR, Oklahoma
He's a little receiver at 5-11, but he knows how to run routes. Clayton is quick in and out of his breaks and he has the speed to get deep. He will be a first-round pick, and many teams have that grade on him, but the reason he's in this list is because the feeling here is that he's better than Mike Williams, and should be the third receiver taken behind Braylon Edwards and Troy Williamson.

[Seven]

Mike Williams has a big frame, but also a penchant for putting on weight. I think he may struggle to balance his weight with speed in the NFL, which will directly affect his explosiveness. He may be able to run over some defenders, but that won't necessarily mean that he will also find the endzone as often either, although some on this board believe (vehemently) differently.

Okay. Appreciate your thoughts. I really didn't know either way.

[Hostile]

Guys, I know that this is going to sound strange, but I'm not sure that Mike Williams is a sure thing to turn into a perennial Pro Bowler as some on this board would like to make him out to be. I think that Mark Clayton will start climbing the draft boards as we come closer to the draft. If he makes it past our #11 pick, I DO NOT think he will make it to the 20th pick. The guy is a playmaker, hands down! I think that Mike Williams may surprise a lot of people once he gets into the NFL. I don't think he is going to be as explosive as a lot of people make him out to be. JMOI really can't figure out some of these opinions on WRs.

If people aren't questioning his speed they are questioning his weight? If there is an article about him ballooning in weight, I sure haven't seen it and I am this guy's biggest shill on this forum. Makes me wonder where these speculations come from. Ever since he left USC in the middle of last season to concentrate on the NFL this guy has been working out in Atlanta. When did he alter this for a buffet line regimen?

I have said it before and I will say it again. Two of the best WRs in the History of the NFL were not bullet fast. On the football field Michael Irvin and Jerry Rice were more than fast enough. What separated them from other WRs was two things, heart and hands. Mike Williams has the best hands at WR since Jerry Rice.

Apparently some people think speed is more important than anything in a WR. I simply don't agree and never will. Don't do like one guy on here and take a stance on this WR then admit that you've never seen him play but have seen the 2 highlights on Sportscenter that they show over and over.

Is he a race horse at WR? No we already have those in Terry Glenn, Quincy Morgan and Randall Williams.

Is he shopping for clothes with Omar the tent maker? Of course not. He's 6'5" 229 pounds. I'd hardly call him a candidate for Jared's Subway diet.

[Wolverine]

FYI~


Notebook: Patterson headlines 2005 Better-Than Team
April 7, 2005
By Pete Prisco
CBS SportsLine.com Senior Writer
Tell Pete your opinion!


Mark Clayton, WR, Oklahoma
He's a little receiver at 5-11, but he knows how to run routes. Clayton is quick in and out of his breaks and he has the speed to get deep. He will be a first-round pick, and many teams have that grade on him, but the reason he's in this list is because the feeling here is that he's better than Mike Williams, and should be the third receiver taken behind Braylon Edwards and Troy Williamson.




Im not Pete Prisco. Im me. I dont need Prisco to think for me.


Guys like Clayton look good in college cuz the game is slower and they are faster then most. But when Clayton gets to the NFL where the game is alot faster it will be a dif story. He will need more then just his speed to get the job done. He doesnt have the size to create any mismatches. There alwasy seems to be these small speedy WRs that like this that come around. But they almost never dominate like a big WR can.

I dont care what the draft experts say. Williams doesnt have mad speed but he will create size mismatches and overpower any CB out there.

My top choices at WR are either Troy Williamson or Roddy White. Both are 6'2" and over 200 lbs. And they have mad speed to go with it. At least they have 6'2" height to create some size mismatches that Clayton never will create.

[Az Lurker]

Is he shopping for clothes with Omar the tent maker? Of course not. He's 6'5" 229 pounds. I'd hardly call him a candidate for Jared's Subway diet.


waaaayyyy off topic, but the main ingreadient for the success of Jared's diet was having his stomach stapled.

He's one of the most annoying thing to come out of Tucson in my mind.

[Hostile]

waaaayyyy off topic, but the main ingreadient for the success of Jared's diet was having his stomach stapled.

He's one of the most annoying thing to come out of Tucson in my mind.As a fellow Tucsonan, I agree. When I go to Subway I avoid that one by the UA just on general nausea from having that shoved down our throats.

[blindzebra]

FYI~


Notebook: Patterson headlines 2005 Better-Than Team
April 7, 2005
By Pete Prisco
CBS SportsLine.com Senior Writer
Tell Pete your opinion!


Mark Clayton, WR, Oklahoma
He's a little receiver at 5-11, but he knows how to run routes. Clayton is quick in and out of his breaks and he has the speed to get deep. He will be a first-round pick, and many teams have that grade on him, but the reason he's in this list is because the feeling here is that he's better than Mike Williams, and should be the third receiver taken behind Braylon Edwards and Troy Williamson.

The next time Prisco's right about something will be the FIRST TIME. The guy is an idiot.

As for taking a player that should go in the 20's at #11, especially when WR is not a pressing need, is well...Prisco-like.:rolleyes:

[Charles]

I really can't figure out some of these opinions on WRs.

If people aren't questioning his speed they are questioning his weight? If there is an article about him ballooning in weight, I sure haven't seen it and I am this guy's biggest shill on this forum. Makes me wonder where these speculations come from. Ever since he left USC in the middle of last season to concentrate on the NFL this guy has been working out in Atlanta. When did he alter this for a buffet line regimen?

I have said it before and I will say it again. Two of the best WRs in the History of the NFL were not bullet fast. On the football field Michael Irvin and Jerry Rice were more than fast enough. What separated them from other WRs was two things, heart and hands. Mike Williams has the best hands at WR since Jerry Rice.

Apparently some people think speed is more important than anything in a WR. I simply don't agree and never will. Don't do like one guy on here and take a stance on this WR then admit that you've never seen him play but have seen the 2 highlights on Sportscenter that they show over and over.

Is he a race horse at WR? No we already have those in Terry Glenn, Quincy Morgan and Randall Williams.

Is he shopping for clothes with Omar the tent maker? Of course not. He's 6'5" 229 pounds. I'd hardly call him a candidate for Jared's Subway diet.
Excellent post Hos

Most fans tend to like the the guy (in this case WR) they've seen most recently. Mike Williams has been out of football ....Out of sight out of mind syndrome is kicking in. If he's the best player available on the Cowboys draft board when we pick I hope they select him.

Mike Williams was the considered either the 1st or 2nd overall pick last year if he declared eligble. I don't think he's forgotten how to play football in one year, Infact athletes of his caliber go crazy and can't wait to get back on the field. And by all accounts he's been in great shape.

I don't think Williams will get past Minnesota IMHO.

[followthestar]

FYI~


Notebook: Patterson headlines 2005 Better-Than Team
April 7, 2005
By Pete Prisco
CBS SportsLine.com Senior Writer
Tell Pete your opinion!


Mark Clayton, WR, Oklahoma
should be... taken behind Braylon Edwards and Troy Williamson.

troy williamson is the man. if we take any WR with our first pick, it should be him...

[Hollywood Henderson]

I agree with you Wolv.
I like Williamson...Blinding speed AND the size to go up & get the ball at its peak over smaller CB's...He is a weapon!
(White is also going to be a very good pro)

I like Clayton too, just not as much and no way at #11...

[LA=Pancakemaker]

If this was to happen, I would puke! This is rediculous!

[Hostile]

Excellent post Hos

Most fans tend to like the the guy (in this case WR) they've seen most recently. Mike Williams has been out of football ....Out of sight out of mind syndrome is kicking in. If he's the best player available on the Cowboys draft board when we pick I hope they select him.

Mike Williams was the considered either the 1st or 2nd overall pick last year if he declared eligble. I don't think he's forgotten how to play football in one year, Infact athletes of his caliber go crazy and can't wait to get back on the field. And by all accounts he's been in great shape.

I don't think Williams will get past Minnesota IMHO.I'll tell you the part that really baffles me Charles. Mike Williams is supposed to be having "weight issues" yet he did a 39" vertical leap. Last time I checked too much weight causes gravity to ground a person.

This kid is a phenomenal athlete and in 2 years of football considered by most to be developmental years he dominated a very good football conference. I've actually seen people suggest it was Norm Chow's offense more than his talent. Someone needs to show me the WRs that Chow has turned out because if his systems inflates their numbers I sure haven't seen it and I played for the man. I sure as hell don't remember Glen Kozlowski or Mark Bellini tearing up the NFL or even being 1st round draft picks.

At some point in time it just makes sense to give a guy credit for his skills.

[Charles]

I'll tell you the part that really baffles me Charles. Mike Williams is supposed to be having "weight issues" yet he did a 39" vertical leap. Last time I checked too much weight causes gravity to ground a person.

This kid is a phenomenal athlete and in 2 years of football considered by most to be developmental years he dominated a very good football conference. I've actually seen people suggest it was Norm Chow's offense more than his talent. Someone needs to show me the WRs that Chow has turned out because if his systems inflates their numbers I sure haven't seen it and I played for the man. I sure as hell don't remember Glen Kozlowski or Mark Bellini tearing up the NFL or even being 1st round draft picks.

At some point in time it just makes sense to give a guy credit for his skills.
shhhhhhhhhh. Terell Suggs also had weight problems leading up to the draft in 2003. Surprisingly he was always the fastest to the QB on arguably the most talented defense in the NFL. ;)

Scouts and fans in general always find a way to down grade players. Too much nit picking.

[Doomsday]

1. Take WR Mark Clayton with the #11 pick.
2. Trade the #20 pick for Darren Howard PLUS N.o.' 3rd rounder this year and maybe a mid-rounder in '06. (We may have to give up a later round pick in '05 to get a pick next year, but we should definitely get an upper round pick next year from NO).

We come away with a premiere WR, a premiere DE, we keep our coveted 2nd rounder, PLUS we pick up a 3rd rounder THIS year.

I hope (and believe) that DJ, Mike Williams & Braylon Edwards will be gone when we pick at #11. I would not use the #11 pick on Shawn Merriman.

Any takers??

I would shoot myself if they took Clayton at #11 and gave up the #20 pick for Howard. That is like a worse case scenerio if you ask me.

[Hostile]

shhhhhhhhhh. Terell Suggs also had weight problems leading up to the draft in 2003. Surprisingly he was always the fastest to the QB on arguably the most talented defense in the NFL. ;)

Scouts and fans in general always find a way to down grade players. Too much nit picking.Oh, you don't have to tell me about Suggs being too slow. I was his biggest shill too. He's so slow that Baltimore is switching to a 4-3 D so he can attack the QB even more. The turtle.

I admit to beind a Pac-10 homer, but at some point I have to wonder if people outside of the Pacific Coast even see guys like Williams and Suggs play. Before he declared for the Draft I posted on DMN that I hoped Terrell Suggs declared and that Dallas would take him. The most common reaction I got was "who is Terrell Suggs?"

Then he declared and suddenly there were experts on him everywhere and in particular on his lack of speed. It blew my mind.

[k19]

You not going to let anyone live that down are you Hos ;)

BTW I'll be taken that spot from you after this weekend on the fantasy race league :D

[Charles]

Oh, you don't have to tell me about Suggs being too slow. I was his biggest shill too. He's so slow that Baltimore is switching to a 4-3 D so he can attack the QB even more. The turtle.

I admit to beind a Pac-10 homer, but at some point I have to wonder if people outside of the Pacific Coast even see guys like Williams and Suggs play. Before he declared for the Draft I posted on DMN that I hoped Terrell Suggs declared and that Dallas would take him. The most common reaction I got was "who is Terrell Suggs?"

Then he declared and suddenly there were experts on him everywhere and in particular on his lack of speed. It blew my mind.
East Coast bias in nutshell.

[TheSkaven]

1. Take WR Mark Clayton with the #11 pick.
2. Trade the #20 pick for Darren Howard PLUS N.o.' 3rd rounder this year and maybe a mid-rounder in '06. (We may have to give up a later round pick in '05 to get a pick next year, but we should definitely get an upper round pick next year from NO).

We come away with a premiere WR, a premiere DE, we keep our coveted 2nd rounder, PLUS we pick up a 3rd rounder THIS year.

I hope (and believe) that DJ, Mike Williams & Braylon Edwards will be gone when we pick at #11. I would not use the #11 pick on Shawn Merriman.

Any takers??No, no, no.. there's no chance that Clayton goes this high. If you want him, you trade down from #11 and pick up more picks. I'm betting he's available at #20.

[mperfection]

I really can't figure out some of these opinions on WRs.

If people aren't questioning his speed they are questioning his weight? If there is an article about him ballooning in weight, I sure haven't seen it and I am this guy's biggest shill on this forum. Makes me wonder where these speculations come from. Ever since he left USC in the middle of last season to concentrate on the NFL this guy has been working out in Atlanta. When did he alter this for a buffet line regimen?

I have said it before and I will say it again. Two of the best WRs in the History of the NFL were not bullet fast. On the football field Michael Irvin and Jerry Rice were more than fast enough. What separated them from other WRs was two things, heart and hands. Mike Williams has the best hands at WR since Jerry Rice.

Apparently some people think speed is more important than anything in a WR. I simply don't agree and never will. Don't do like one guy on here and take a stance on this WR then admit that you've never seen him play but have seen the 2 highlights on Sportscenter that they show over and over.

Is he a race horse at WR? No we already have those in Terry Glenn, Quincy Morgan and Randall Williams.

Is he shopping for clothes with Omar the tent maker? Of course not. He's 6'5" 229 pounds. I'd hardly call him a candidate for Jared's Subway diet.

Your baleful humor is excelled only by your penchant for the idiotic. If you want to get into a linguistic joust, then you should have paid more attention in your etymology class than picking your nose.

My point is simply this: Mike Williams may very well be a top-ten pick...or not. I have consistently read reports that some fear that his size may tip him over the edge into the realm of H-back. Mike Williams may have great hands and size, but not every ball thrown in the NFL will be a "jump ball". I question how fluid he is. Michael Irvin's size grew when he came into the NFL, like most WR's size should do, but he didn't lose his fluidity. You mentioned Jerry Rice and Mike Irvin - again, both grew in size and became more adept at using their fluidity. Mike Williams cannot afford to grow more in size (which I think he will have a tendency to do anyway) and I question how fluid he is right now. Size mismatches have more meaning in certain situations on the field, namely a jump ball or in the red zone.

Do I think he will be a playmaker in the NFL? That remains to be seen. I'm not just as sold as some are that he is a can't miss. Some question taking Mark Clayton with the 11th pick. I can understand that. But then they say they would use the 20th pick to grab him. I doubt he will last until the 20th pick. The kid is a playmaker - period! And at this point I will go out on a limb and say that I believe he may end up being more of a factor on an NFL team than Mike Williams! If you (and others) had read my entire post, you would have noticed that I would use the 11th pick on Clayton only if Edwards and (possibly) Williams are off the board.

I like Mike Williams - I'm just not a homer for him.

[starfrombirth]

Your baleful humor is excelled only by your penchant for the idiotic. If you want to get into a linguistic joust, then you should have paid more attention in your etymology class than picking your nose.

My point is simply this: Mike Williams may very well be a top-ten pick...or not. I have consistently read reports that some fear that his size may tip him over the edge into the realm of H-back. Mike Williams may have great hands and size, but not every ball thrown in the NFL will be a "jump ball". I question how fluid he is. Michael Irvin's size grew when he came into the NFL, like most WR's size should do, but he didn't lose his fluidity. You mentioned Jerry Rice and Mike Irvin - again, both grew in size and became more adept at using their fluidity. Mike Williams cannot afford to grow more in size (which I think he will have a tendency to do anyway) and I question how fluid he is right now. Size mismatches have more meaning in certain situations on the field, namely a jump ball or in the red zone.

Do I think he will be a playmaker in the NFL? That remains to be seen. I'm not just as sold as some are that he is a can't miss. Some question taking Mark Clayton with the 11th pick. I can understand that. But then they say they would use the 20th pick to grab him. I doubt he will last until the 20th pick. The kid is a playmaker - period! And at this point I will go out on a limb and say that I believe he may end up being more of a factor on an NFL team than Mike Williams! If you (and others) had read my entire post, you would have noticed that I would use the 11th pick on Clayton only if Edwards and (possibly) Williams are off the board.

I like Mike Williams - I'm just not a homer for him.

I've been saying the same thing about MW for months now. I think he will be a great kid but I feel his skills will make him very much a clone of keyshawn (not that that's a bad thing) just not the game breaker we are looking for. JMHO :D

[Wolverine]

Your baleful humor is excelled only by your penchant for the idiotic. If you want to get into a linguistic joust, then you should have paid more attention in your etymology class than picking your nose.


Dayyuummm Hostile he showed you! I cant wait to see your comeback on this one.

My point is simply this: Mike Williams may very well be a top-ten pick...or not. I have consistently read reports that some fear that his size may tip him over the edge into the realm of H-back. Mike Williams may have great hands and size, but not every ball thrown in the NFL will be a "jump ball". I question how fluid he is. Michael Irvin's size grew when he came into the NFL, like most WR's size should do, but he didn't lose his fluidity. You mentioned Jerry Rice and Mike Irvin - again, both grew in size and became more adept at using their fluidity. Mike Williams cannot afford to grow more in size (which I think he will have a tendency to do anyway) and I question how fluid he is right now. Size mismatches have more meaning in certain situations on the field, namely a jump ball or in the red zone.

Do I think he will be a playmaker in the NFL? That remains to be seen. I'm not just as sold as some are that he is a can't miss. Some question taking Mark Clayton with the 11th pick. I can understand that. But then they say they would use the 20th pick to grab him. I doubt he will last until the 20th pick. The kid is a playmaker - period! And at this point I will go out on a limb and say that I believe he may end up being more of a factor on an NFL team than Mike Williams! If you (and others) had read my entire post, you would have noticed that I would use the 11th pick on Clayton only if Edwards and (possibly) Williams are off the board.

I like Mike Williams - I'm just not a homer for him.



I will make this easy. Mike Williams has alredy proven he can play even without great speed. He already has huge size to create mismatches. He is very strong and has good hands. Fluid. Who cares. As long as he can catch the ball and help a team get in the endzone and produce.


Marc Clayton. There are always these small undersized great speed WRs every draft. They look good in college cuz they dont run into as many fast defenders on the field. When they get to the NFL they almost never have the impact they did in college cuz when they get to the NFL it is so much faster. And the only thing they had goin for them was speed. Clayton will need more then just speed. He will never have size or strength to cause probs. Go look at the top WRs in the NFL. They are almost always bigger WRs.

Why bother with a 5'10" undersized Clayton when you can get either Roddy White or Troy Williamson who are just as fast and they are both 6'2" and over 200 lbs.

[Houstonboys13]

Your baleful humor is excelled only by your penchant for the idiotic. If you want to get into a linguistic joust, then you should have paid more attention in your etymology class than picking your nose.

My point is simply this: Mike Williams may very well be a top-ten pick...or not. I have consistently read reports that some fear that his size may tip him over the edge into the realm of H-back. Mike Williams may have great hands and size, but not every ball thrown in the NFL will be a "jump ball". I question how fluid he is. Michael Irvin's size grew when he came into the NFL, like most WR's size should do, but he didn't lose his fluidity. You mentioned Jerry Rice and Mike Irvin - again, both grew in size and became more adept at using their fluidity. Mike Williams cannot afford to grow more in size (which I think he will have a tendency to do anyway) and I question how fluid he is right now. Size mismatches have more meaning in certain situations on the field, namely a jump ball or in the red zone.

Do I think he will be a playmaker in the NFL? That remains to be seen. I'm not just as sold as some are that he is a can't miss. Some question taking Mark Clayton with the 11th pick. I can understand that. But then they say they would use the 20th pick to grab him. I doubt he will last until the 20th pick. The kid is a playmaker - period! And at this point I will go out on a limb and say that I believe he may end up being more of a factor on an NFL team than Mike Williams! If you (and others) had read my entire post, you would have noticed that I would use the 11th pick on Clayton only if Edwards and (possibly) Williams are off the board.

I like Mike Williams - I'm just not a homer for him.


You need to accept other's opinions if you ever expect them to respect yours. Your responses to anyone who disagrees with you is very immature.

[SuspectCorner]

excuse me mperfection. i have a slight problem with your use of the word "baleful" - which implies some sort of "evil intent" on the part of hostile.

his intention appears to be to further "the cause" of selecting mike williams at #11, if available. i hardly view this as "baleful".

i'm against williams, personally, and i believe K. Johnson would keep him off the field, rendering the selection moot.

if YOU prefer somebody else drop your thesaurus and say so.

[the_h0wey]

Wow take Mark Clayton at 11? Now why would we do that. First of all we need to address our defense with our first pick unless someone who should not be at #11 is their such as Mike Williams. And even if MW is at #11 the pick is worth more being traded. Mark Clayton, I mean come on man he may still be their for us to take in the 2nd. Duh....

[4lifecowboy]

First off Mike Williams in my opinion is the best player in the draft, the only one worth trading up for. But that doesn't discount Clayton's ability, and production. I don't understand the philosophy that size is every thing. I have seen Clayton play, more than Edwards, so I won't compare the two but Clayton has HEART, and GREAT hands and that along with his elusiveness after the catch, that makes him a legitiment canidate for the 11th overall pick. And with the success of the smaller type receivers in the NFL like Harrison, Holt, Smith, Coleman, and our own Glenn, I don't understand the questioning of what Clayton has displayed throughout is college career, that he can PRODUCE.

[mperfection]

You need to accept other's opinions if you ever expect them to respect yours. Your responses to anyone who disagrees with you is very immature.

What's immature is your unwillingness (or inability) to read someone's comments in context. All I said was that I disagreed with some poster's homerism over Mike Williams. If that's immature then I'd hate to think what you must resemble being "grown up." :rolleyes:

[mperfection]

First off Mike Williams in my opinion is the best player in the draft, the only one worth trading up for. But that doesn't discount Clayton's ability, and production. I don't understand the philosophy that size is every thing. I have seen Clayton play, more than Edwards, so I won't compare the two but Clayton has HEART, and GREAT hands and that along with his elusiveness after the catch, that makes him a legitiment canidate for the 11th overall pick. And with the success of the smaller type receivers in the NFL like Harrison, Holt, Smith, Coleman, and our own Glenn, I don't understand the questioning of what Clayton has displayed throughout is college career, that he can PRODUCE.

Finally, a voice of reason!

[mperfection]

excuse me mperfection. i have a slight problem with your use of the word "baleful" - which implies some sort of "evil intent" on the part of hostile.

his intention appears to be to further "the cause" of selecting mike williams at #11, if available. i hardly view this as "baleful".

i'm against williams, personally, and i believe K. Johnson would keep him off the field, rendering the selection moot.

if YOU prefer somebody else drop your thesaurus and say so.


Would YOU prefer that I use "baneful" instead of baleful? :rolleyes:

Please, I don't even know who you are and I can't think of a worser way of introducing yourself to others than by your post. I really think Hos can take up for himself, and if not, then he doesn't deserve the name Hostile.

[SuspectCorner]

Would YOU prefer that I use "baneful" instead of baleful? :rolleyes:

Please, I don't even know who you are and I can't think of a worser way of introducing yourself to others than by your post. I really think Hos can take up for himself, and if not, then he doesn't deserve the name Hostile.
"worser"? please. i don't know who YOU are either. and i certainly don't view that fact as any kind of disadvantage.

i'm not interested in "introducing" myself - to you, or "others".

i just have a problem with your insinuating some wicked intent is implied by making a case for mike willliams.

[Houstonboys13]

Would YOU prefer that I use "baneful" instead of baleful? :rolleyes:

Please, I don't even know who you are and I can't think of a worser way of introducing yourself to others than by your post. I really think Hos can take up for himself, and if not, then he doesn't deserve the name Hostile.


For a person who claims to have a great vocabulary and has the word “Perfection” in his title, I expected you to show better use of your extinguished, sophisticated and extended vocabulary. Instead, I get someone who uses the word “worser” while trying to insult someone else. I'll use your favorite symbol to express my true feelings :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[the_h0wey]

Hhhmm not quite sure why we would pick Mark Clayton with the #11 pick....We could trade down with the freaking Patriots and still pick Clayton. Not to mention the guy a very undersized receiver to be picking in the first round...If Mike Williams is at 11 take him, but no way he slips that far and I think the chances of us drafting a WR in the first besides MW at 11 and Williamson MAYBE at 20 are slim to none. If for some very strange reason we really want Clayton we could still probably get him with our second round pick...

[Hostile]

Your baleful humor is excelled only by your penchant for the idiotic. If you want to get into a linguistic joust, then you should have paid more attention in your etymology class than picking your nose.

My point is simply this: Mike Williams may very well be a top-ten pick...or not. I have consistently read reports that some fear that his size may tip him over the edge into the realm of H-back. Mike Williams may have great hands and size, but not every ball thrown in the NFL will be a "jump ball". I question how fluid he is. Michael Irvin's size grew when he came into the NFL, like most WR's size should do, but he didn't lose his fluidity. You mentioned Jerry Rice and Mike Irvin - again, both grew in size and became more adept at using their fluidity. Mike Williams cannot afford to grow more in size (which I think he will have a tendency to do anyway) and I question how fluid he is right now. Size mismatches have more meaning in certain situations on the field, namely a jump ball or in the red zone.

Do I think he will be a playmaker in the NFL? That remains to be seen. I'm not just as sold as some are that he is a can't miss. Some question taking Mark Clayton with the 11th pick. I can understand that. But then they say they would use the 20th pick to grab him. I doubt he will last until the 20th pick. The kid is a playmaker - period! And at this point I will go out on a limb and say that I believe he may end up being more of a factor on an NFL team than Mike Williams! If you (and others) had read my entire post, you would have noticed that I would use the 11th pick on Clayton only if Edwards and (possibly) Williams are off the board.

I like Mike Williams - I'm just not a homer for him.I have no idea where you feel I insulted you so that you had to attempt to insult me back. Then to break it down to etymology?

I also noticed that you failed to provide a link for his supposed ballooning weight or ever present weight issues. Not that I'm all that surprised. I doubt there are any links to be found that he has weight issues. People thinking he may be more suited to another position because of his size is an altogether different animal than weight issues. Weight issues is about buffet lines in the off season. His natural size is about genetics. You weren't talking about his genetics. If you intended to then you needed to be more clear. That fault doesn't rest on me as I was not the author of the idea, you were.

The fact remains that kids who make an impact in the NCAA as Freshman and Sophomores are rare blue chip commodities for the NFL. By the time they become Juniors and Seniors they usually have a grasp of the system and their competitive nature either takes over or they merely turn out to be average.

As a Freshman Mike Williams blew people who actually watched him play away. He plays the game in a way I often associate with Walter Payton. When a defender comes up to tackle him he simply punishes them. To me that is showing heart. He fights for every pass, he can catch anything thrown at him, and then he knows where the endzone is and he fights for every inch to get there.

30 touchdowns in 2 years of college football is nothing to sneeze at but by all means let me be polite. Bless you. Need a Kleenex? It's allergy season. Benadryl works but it makes you drowsy.

Mike Williams stock in this draft fluctuates for only one reason and it has nothing to do with his grocery bill. He was out of football for 1 year. If he had played in 2004 and done anything close to what he had done his Freshman and Sophomore years he would easily be the hottest topic in San Francisco. The fact of the matter is most NCAA players improve every year that they play so he might have been even more phenomenal in 2004. It wasn't meant to be.

No other player in this draft could sit a year and still be talked about in the top 10. No player in NCAA History could add buffet line training to that discussion and even get a sniff at the 1st round. If there were reports that he had weight issues he would be out of the 1st round by now.

For me that makes this kid special and worth considering and even hoping for. I've actually seen him play and he plays the game with an incredible passion.

I keep hearing people say he's a Keyshawn clone and I think that is the easy way out because they both played at USC. Truth be told I think he is closer to a Michael Irvin than he is a Keyshawn. Call me a failure in etymology but I'll take another WR with that kind of fire any day of the week.

[SuspectCorner]

mike williams' potential to get bigger is SUCH a concern that he currently occupies the #1 slot on kiper's "big board".

IMO, williams is gonna provide instant impact for the team that selects him.

how many teams ALREADY have a possession receiver approaching his calibre? dang few. but, with keyshawn, dallas could be considered one of the few.

if cowboys find mike williams available at #11 - they will prolly have a hard time passing on him.

[Wolverine]

Hostile just owned mrperfection.

[mperfection]

Instead, I get someone who uses the word “worser” while trying to insult someone else. I'll use your favorite symbol to express my true feelings :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I threw that one in JUST FOR YOU! :cool:

Q: How many times does one need to use the "rolleyes" icon before he/she gets his/her point across?? :eek:

[mperfection]

mike williams' potential to get bigger is SUCH a concern that he currently occupies the #1 slot on kiper's "big board".

IMO, williams is gonna provide instant impact for the team that selects him.

how many teams ALREADY have a possession receiver approaching his calibre? dang few. but, with keyshawn, dallas could be considered one of the few.

if cowboys find mike williams available at #11 - they will prolly have a hard time passing on him.

And at this point I will go out on a limb and say that I believe he may end up being more of a factor on an NFL team than Mike Williams! If you (and others) had read my entire post, you would have noticed that I would use the 11th pick on Clayton only if Edwards and (possibly) Williams are off the board.

Did you even read my post :confused: I have NEVER disagreed with taking Mike Williams with the 11th pick.

[Wolverine]

Anyone who would take Clayton at #11 is just stupid.

[Hostile]

Hostile just owned mrperfection.Nothing a little Bondo, sandpaper and paint won't cover up..

[Jarv]

I really can't figure out some of these opinions on WRs.

If people aren't questioning his speed they are questioning his weight? If there is an article about him ballooning in weight, I sure haven't seen it and I am this guy's biggest shill on this forum. Makes me wonder where these speculations come from. Ever since he left USC in the middle of last season to concentrate on the NFL this guy has been working out in Atlanta. When did he alter this for a buffet line regimen?

I have said it before and I will say it again. Two of the best WRs in the History of the NFL were not bullet fast. On the football field Michael Irvin and Jerry Rice were more than fast enough. What separated them from other WRs was two things, heart and hands. Mike Williams has the best hands at WR since Jerry Rice.

Apparently some people think speed is more important than anything in a WR. I simply don't agree and never will. Don't do like one guy on here and take a stance on this WR then admit that you've never seen him play but have seen the 2 highlights on Sportscenter that they show over and over.

Is he a race horse at WR? No we already have those in Terry Glenn, Quincy Morgan and Randall Williams.

Is he shopping for clothes with Omar the tent maker? Of course not. He's 6'5" 229 pounds. I'd hardly call him a candidate for Jared's Subway diet.


I agree Hos, people put too much into speed on a running track.

Football players like WR's and RB's, etc...Should be timed in full pads in the 40 with a DB chasing them (preferable our Roy Willaims)...

Think about this also, a big strong guy like Mike Willaims might not lose much speed with pads on, whereass a lighter faster guy may lose more speed with the pads...

Look at it this way, two guys are racing in the 40...One is 6'4" and weighs 240...The other is 5'10" and weighs 185. The 5'10" wins by a 1/10 of a second.

Now, they race again, this time both of them are wearing a 30 lb backpack.

Who will the 30 lb backpack feel lighter to ? probably (in most cases) the heavier guy. Who will probably lose more speed due to the backpack, probably the lighter guy.

Who wins the second race with the backpacks on ? Who knows...But it could affect the outcome.

Some people are faster in pads...I think that is what Madden said is football speed.

[mperfection]

Anyone who would take Clayton at #11 is just stupid.

Good...that way you can have a TWIN. :eek:

[Wolverine]

Good...that way you can have a TWIN. :eek:


Ohhhh your just so funny. Why dont you just pull your lip over your head and swallow.

[Hostile]

I agree Hos, people put too much into speed on a running track.

Football players like WR's and RB's, etc...Should be timed in full pads in the 40 with a DB chasing them (preferable our Roy Willaims)...

Think about this also, a big strong guy like Mike Willaims might not lose much speed with pads on, whereass a lighter faster guy may lose more speed with the pads...

Look at it this way, two guys are racing in the 40...One is 6'4" and weighs 240...The other is 5'10" and weighs 185. The 5'10" wins by a 1/10 of a second.

Now, they race again, this time both of them are wearing a 30 lb backpack.

Who will the 30 lb backpack feel lighter to ? probably (in most cases) the heavier guy. Who will probably lose more speed due to the backpack, probably the lighter guy.

Who wins the second race with the backpacks on ? Who knows...But it could affect the outcome.

Some people are faster in pads...I think that is what Madden said is football speed.I think that gets swept under way too many carpets.

[ghst187]

First off, being an OU alum I love Clayton. Guy has been nothing but production and big plays for us for the past few years. Has good top end speed but his zero to top speed quickness, i.e. acceleration, is unbelievable. He is a very polished WR that can get open just by the purity with which he runs routes. However, being smaller than most NFL DB's is not a good thing. I don't think Clayton warrants our 11 pick. I don't think he lasts to 20 though either. I do think that he will be productive though in the NFL.
Also, I think its a real possibility that Tampa takes a RB and Minny takes Williamson at 7. After Braylon, I don't think the order of the WR's is set in stone.
Personally, I just don't see the hype with Williamson, at least not to warrant the way he has shot up the charts so much in the offseason. He was no where near the playmaker that Clayton was in college...and yes I realize that Clayton played for pass-happy OU and Williamson played for pass-hating SC but watch them running with the ball. Williamson looks like a fly-route only kinda guy with straight-line speed. I think that IF he's successful in the NFL, it won't be until year 3 or later.
On Mike Williams, I just don't see how he's not going to produce in the NFL. I think he will need to get synched up with his QB to where his QB realizes that he just throw the ball high even when MW is covered. Sure, MW isn't going to kill you on fly routes, but let your speed guy run the fly and clear out the middle...let MW run 10 and in across the middle. That's where TO gets a LOT of yards (and horsecollars). But the money for MW IMO is redzone production. I just really don't see how anyone is going to be able to cover him in the endzone. And oh by the way, when was the last season that we didn't have trouble scoring in the redzone? Been about a decade. MW is similar style to Key BUTTTTTT Key no longer demands double teams and doesn't really use his size or leaping ability. He never had a 38" vertical anyway. I also don't really remember Key making one handed grabs look so easy. If Key used his size or had great leaping ability, we could throw fade routes when inside the 5. But he doesn't so we can't. When Minny had Moss, you could count on one, maybe two fade routes every goal-to-go possession. We sure never stopped it. MW will get the fade route and I just really don't see how anyone's going to stop it. If anyone can tell me how any 6'0 200 lb (and I'm being generous) DBs are going to stop a 6'5 230 lb WR with a 38" vertical leap and outfielder mitt hands in the back corner of the endzone, then I'll stop being such a MW homer.

[big dog cowboy]

The next time Prisco's right about something will be the FIRST TIME. The guy is an idiot.

As for taking a player that should go in the 20's at #11, especially when WR is not a pressing need, is well...Prisco-like.:rolleyes:
You are more right than you probably realize. And funny!!!

[Wolverine]

Clayton=WR most likely to be a bust.

[mperfection]

Ohhhh your just so funny. Why dont you just pull your lip over your head and swallow.

"your funny" :confused:

I see someone else was asleep too during English Comp. class. :cool:

[Wolverine]

"your funny" :confused:

I see someone else was asleep too during English Comp. class. :cool:


Is that all the better you can come up with old man.

[mperfection]

Is that all the better you can come up with old man.


In all sincerity, I'm just joshing with you Wolverine. I appreciate your posts and most other guys on this board. Enough is enough...I'm laying down my sword..err...my keyboard. :)

Let me be the first to extend the proverbial olive branch as a peace offering.

[Crown Royal]

Clayton=WR most likely to be a bust.

False - Williamson is more likely to be a bust, based on conference, numbers, experience and former system. His learning curve is just higher.

But he also has the higher ceiling, if he can overcome....

[Wolverine]

In all sincerity, I'm just joshing with you Wolverine. I appreciate your posts and most other guys on this board. Enough is enough...I'm laying down my sword..err...my keyboard. :)

Let me be the first to extend the proverbial olive branch as a peace offering.


Coolio. I respect you for doin that to. I will lay down the keyboard to.

[mperfection]

Coolio. I respect you for doin that to. I will lay down the keyboard to.

Oh, by the way, I absolutely love your Mike Zimmer sig. Somehow I'm praying that Todd Bowles (secondary coach) does something magical with our secondary to help ease the pain of having Zimmer back for another year. :(

[Crown Royal]

Oh, by the way, I absolutely love your Mike Zimmer sig. Somehow I'm praying that Todd Bowles (secondary coach) does something magical with our secondary to help ease the pain of having Zimmer back for another year. :(

I like Bowles, but I would prefer to see a DL or LB coach take over, if only for the reason that they understand gap schemes better, and it has been YEARS since this team has been able to attack gaps...

[mperfection]

I like Bowles, but I would prefer to see a DL or LB coach take over, if only for the reason that they understand gap schemes better, and it has been YEARS since this team has been able to attack gaps...

L-O-L! Sad to say, that is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

[SuspectCorner]

In all sincerity, I'm just joshing with you Wolverine. I appreciate your posts and most other guys on this board. Enough is enough...I'm laying down my sword..err...my keyboard. :)

Let me be the first to extend the proverbial olive branch as a peace offering.
and i apologize for the "thesaurus" crack. <insert rodney king quote here>

[mperfection]

and i apologize for the "thesaurus" crack. <insert rodney king quote here>

L-O-L. Beautiful!

[Wolverine]

Oh, by the way, I absolutely love your Mike Zimmer sig. Somehow I'm praying that Todd Bowles (secondary coach) does something magical with our secondary to help ease the pain of having Zimmer back for another year. :(


I want Zimmer fired so bad. The fastest way to improve our D is to fire Zimmer.

[mperfection]

I want Zimmer fired so bad. The fastest way to improve our D is to fire Zimmer.

No doubt!

[ddh33]

I'm just hoping that Zimmer has a group of talented players on defense. If he does and the defense still plays below expectations, then he can move on. I think the defense will be strong this season though. And I confess, as a Parcells supporter, I am intrigued by Bill's affinity for him. Belechick references are nothing to be taken lightly these days.