The I just don't get it Under/Over Rated Players

[xwalker]

Overrated - Ben Jones OC (2nd/3rd) – I just don’t get it. He gets pushed back in the pocket, gets beat off the snap, is often on the ground and looks un-athletic in open space.

Underrated - Philip Blake OC (4th) – Ok, he will 26 to start the season, but why is he rated as a 4th rounder. He is bigger and quicker than Ben Jones both in game footage and at the combine. His bench reps were a little on the low side but he does have slightly longer arms than Jones.

Slightly Overrated - Peter Konz OC (1st) – He is a good player, but is not overly strong or quick.

Overrated - Dre Kirkpatrick CB (Top 20) - Borderline athlete at CB.

Overrated - Leonard Johnson CB (3rd/4th/5th) – Slow 5-9ish CB. Barry Church had better agility numbers.

Underrated - Bruce Irvin OLB (2nd/3rd) - Physically, he is almost a clone of Von Miller. Von Miller was the #2 overall pick in 2011 but Irvin is projected to possibly go in the 3rd round?

Overrated - Dontari Poe DL (Top 10) - Do any of the analysts watch the games?

Underrated - Akiem Hicks DL (5th) - Ok, the level of competition is very low, but he looked like a huge athletic beast in games. He looked good in the Shrine game and in pass-rush drills.

Overrated - Michael Brockers DL (Top 20) – Really? I don’t see the athleticism expected of a top 20 pick either in games or at the combine.

Overrated - Courtney Upshaw OLB/DE (Top 25) – Marginal athlete, short with short arms for the position.

Slightly Overrated - Melvin Ingram OLB (Top 10) – Good athlete that had some exceptional games but is short with short arms.

Underrated - Levy Adcock OT (7th) – I thought he looked OK at LT and good at RT.

Underrated - Ryan Broyles WR (6th) – Ok, he is injured and is not a burner; however, he finished his collegiate career as the NCAA career receptions leader with 349 catches and No. 2 on the NCAA career receiving yards chart with 4,586 yards.

Underrated - Chris Rainey WR (6th) – Ok, some sites have him rated higher. He has terrific speed and agility to be a slot-WR and punt returner.

Underrated - Miles Burris ILB (6th to UDFA) – Plays like his hair is on fire. Has good speed/quickness and strength. (6-2, 240, Forty=4.67*, 3-cone=6.85*, bench=31, vert=37.5)

Underrated - Chris Greenwood (UDFA) – Very small school but big time athlete (6-1, 193, forty=4.37*. vert=43, bj=11-2)

[RS12]

Looks you do get it.

[joseephuss]

Underrated - Ryan Broyles WR (6th) – Ok, he is injured and is not a burner; however, he finished his collegiate career as the NCAA career receptions leader with 349 catches and No. 2 on the NCAA career receiving yards chart with 4,586 yards.



There are tons of guys who finished high up on the list for receptions and receiving yards in college, but did nothing at the pro level. I wouldn't evaluate him based on his career stats, but how he looked and played. He is tough to evaluate because the Big 12 is not a conference full of great defenses and OU runs a wide open system. Also, in recent history OU has not produced many good NFL receivers and they played in the same system as Broyles. The 6th round would be a fine place to draft him.

[Risen Star]

Good thread.

The only thing I'd tell you is you can't just look at college production. You have to determine whether that player has the skill set to carry that production to the pros. The scrap heap is littered with highly productive college players who couldn't play in the NFL.

[Risen Star]

There are tons of guys who finished high up on the list for receptions and receiving yards in college, but did nothing at the pro level. I wouldn't evaluate him based on his career stats, but how he looked and played. He is tough to evaluate because the Big 12 is not a conference full of great defenses and OU runs a wide open system. Also, in recent history OU has not produced many good NFL receivers and they played in the same system as Broyles. The 6th round would be a fine place to draft him.

I think he's a 4th rounder at worst. High 2nd round pick without the injury.

[tm1119]

I agree with most. The only 1 that jumped out at me was Kirkpatrick. He's 6'2 and ran a sub 4.5 40 with a 35 inch vertical. He's very athletic, the notion that he has bad hips should have gone out the window a while ago.

[cowboysooner]

Overrated - Ben Jones OC (2nd/3rd) – I just don’t get it. He gets pushed back in the pocket, gets beat off the snap, is often on the ground and looks un-athletic in open space.

Underrated - Philip Blake OC (4th) – Ok, he will 26 to start the season, but why is he rated as a 4th rounder. He is bigger and quicker than Ben Jones both in game footage and at the combine. His bench reps were a little on the low side but he does have slightly longer arms than Jones.

Slightly Overrated - Peter Konz OC (1st) – He is a good player, but is not overly strong or quick.

Overrated - Dre Kirkpatrick CB (Top 20) - Borderline athlete at CB.

Overrated - Leonard Johnson CB (3rd/4th/5th) – Slow 5-9ish CB. Barry Church had better agility numbers.

Underrated - Bruce Irvin OLB (2nd/3rd) - Physically, he is almost a clone of Von Miller. Von Miller was the #2 overall pick in 2011 but Irvin is projected to possibly go in the 3rd round?

Overrated - Dontari Poe DL (Top 10) - Do any of the analysts watch the games?

Underrated - Akiem Hicks DL (5th) - Ok, the level of competition is very low, but he looked like a huge athletic beast in games. He looked good in the Shrine game and in pass-rush drills.

Overrated - Michael Brockers DL (Top 20) – Really? I don’t see the athleticism expected of a top 20 pick either in games or at the combine.

Overrated - Courtney Upshaw OLB/DE (Top 25) – Marginal athlete, short with short arms for the position.

Slightly Overrated - Melvin Ingram OLB (Top 10) – Good athlete that had some exceptional games but is short with short arms.

Underrated - Levy Adcock OT (7th) – I thought he looked OK at LT and good at RT.

Underrated - Ryan Broyles WR (6th) – Ok, he is injured and is not a burner; however, he finished his collegiate career as the NCAA career receptions leader with 349 catches and No. 2 on the NCAA career receiving yards chart with 4,586 yards.

Underrated - Chris Rainey WR (6th) – Ok, some sites have him rated higher. He has terrific speed and agility to be a slot-WR and punt returner.

Underrated - Miles Burris ILB (6th to UDFA) – Plays like his hair is on fire. Has good speed/quickness and strength. (6-2, 240, Forty=4.67*, 3-cone=6.85*, bench=31, vert=37.5)

Underrated - Chris Greenwood (UDFA) – Very small school but big time athlete (6-1, 193, forty=4.37*. vert=43, bj=11-2)

Good topic and I agree with many of the players you picked.

I think on Blake he is not going to improve much physically like the younger guys will. You can teach him technique. They also ran a almost exclusively spread at Baylor. I think where he is rated is pretty fair bottom of 3rd to 4th round pick.

I think Rainey is pretty much just a returner in a Ted Ginn type role with possibly a gadget play or 2 from normal offense, but I think he is underrated as a returner for both punts and kicks.

Irvin is the one that has me most confused. It almost has to be a major character or intelligence red flag because by the tape and the measurables. He has tremendous value even if it is just in your nickel and dime packages. He would be a perfect Cowboy because his strengths line up exactly with Spencer's perceived weaknesses.

I understand why Poe and Brockers are going to be picked high. You could be getting a player that should go 3 or 4 in this draft by talent. Teams don't think they can replicate the innate skill sets with other prospects. It is alot like Ware/ JPP or Tyson Jackson, Vernon Gholson. Sometimes those workout and sometimes they don't. I think the new CBA will have teams reaching and cutting after 3 or 4 years without much penalty. I would not expect much instant impact from either player.

I don't expect Ingram in the top 10 because I think he is 3-4 only so he will go to KC, Arizona or Dallas. He could possibly play the LEO in Seattle's hybrid 4-3. He would get swallowed up in a traditional 4-3.

I could not agree with you more on Upshaw. He is too big and slow to play in a 3-4 but I don't think he is an elite edge rusher. He looks like Jamall Anderson the Falcons bust from 4-5 years ago.

[burmafrd]

Brockers has top 5 talent? Not likely

[cds99]

I would be willing to bet anything that bruce irvin Will not last until the 3rd

[xwalker]

There are tons of guys who finished high up on the list for receptions and receiving yards in college, but did nothing at the pro level. I wouldn't evaluate him based on his career stats, but how he looked and played. He is tough to evaluate because the Big 12 is not a conference full of great defenses and OU runs a wide open system. Also, in recent history OU has not produced many good NFL receivers and they played in the same system as Broyles. The 6th round would be a fine place to draft him.

Good thread.

The only thing I'd tell you is you can't just look at college production. You have to determine whether that player has the skill set to carry that production to the pros. The scrap heap is littered with highly productive college players who couldn't play in the NFL.

Agree, I generally don't pay much attention to college production, but when a player is #1/#2 all time, I have to give it some merit.

[newlander]

if we draft this guy................:bang2: :bang2: :bang2: :bang2: :bang2: :bang2:

[xwalker]

Good topic and I agree with many of the players you picked.

I think on Blake he is not going to improve much physically like the younger guys will. You can teach him technique. They also ran a almost exclusively spread at Baylor. I think where he is rated is pretty fair bottom of 3rd to 4th round pick.

I think Rainey is pretty much just a returner in a Ted Ginn type role with possibly a gadget play or 2 from normal offense, but I think he is underrated as a returner for both punts and kicks.

Irvin is the one that has me most confused. It almost has to be a major character or intelligence red flag because by the tape and the measurables. He has tremendous value even if it is just in your nickel and dime packages. He would be a perfect Cowboy because his strengths line up exactly with Spencer's perceived weaknesses.

I understand why Poe and Brockers are going to be picked high. You could be getting a player that should go 3 or 4 in this draft by talent. Teams don't think they can replicate the innate skill sets with other prospects. It is alot like Ware/ JPP or Tyson Jackson, Vernon Gholson. Sometimes those workout and sometimes they don't. I think the new CBA will have teams reaching and cutting after 3 or 4 years without much penalty. I would not expect much instant impact from either player.

I don't expect Ingram in the top 10 because I think he is 3-4 only so he will go to KC, Arizona or Dallas. He could possibly play the LEO in Seattle's hybrid 4-3. He would get swallowed up in a traditional 4-3.

I could not agree with you more on Upshaw. He is too big and slow to play in a 3-4 but I don't think he is an elite edge rusher. He looks like Jamall Anderson the Falcons bust from 4-5 years ago.

Blake
I don't really know exactly what round he should be rated, but IMO, he should be rated closer to Jones/Konz. I keep going back to watch game footage and I just can't understand how Ben Jones is rated higher. Also, if Blake is a 4th rounder then Konz should be a 2nd rounder at best, IMO.

Rainey
Ok, he's probably not that underrated. I'd say early 5th.

Irvin
Agree.

Poe
He just didn't do much against mid-level competition.

Brockers
I really don't get this one. Clifton Geathers has better measureables across the board.
See the comparison here: http://www.walker-texas.com/clifton-geathers.jpg

Ingram
I really like this player, but even top 20 seems really high to me for a player that just does not fit into the general measureables for a 3-4 OLB. I probably expect to much from a top 20 pick.

Upshaw
I guess he is just a product of being on a top rated defense. He would be 8th at best in my list of 3-4 OLB prospects.

[Gaede]

Just one note...

I don't know how Hicks could be underrated. If anything, he's overrated. He didn't even dominate at Regina. Let me be honest, the competition completely and utterly sucks in Canada.

[xwalker]

Just one note...

I don't know how Hicks could be underrated. If anything, he's overrated. He didn't even dominate at Regina. Let me be honest, the competition completely and utterly sucks in Canada.

I agree that the level of competition is low; however, I disagree that he did not dominate. I didn't check his stats, but in the game footage that I watched, he just ran though those Canadian College players almost unimpeded.

I based my evaluation more on the Shrine game and practice/drills before the Shrine game. He has really good burst off the line and good movement skills for a 320 pound man, IMO.

[Sam I Am]

There are tons of guys who finished high up on the list for receptions and receiving yards in college, but did nothing at the pro level. I wouldn't evaluate him based on his career stats, but how he looked and played. He is tough to evaluate because the Big 12 is not a conference full of great defenses and OU runs a wide open system. Also, in recent history OU has not produced many good NFL receivers and they played in the same system as Broyles. The 6th round would be a fine place to draft him.

He will go well before the sixth round.

[Sam I Am]

Brockers
I really don't get this one. Clifton Geathers has better measureables across the board.
See the comparison here: http://www.walker-texas.com/clifton-geathers.jpg

Geathers was 296lbs when he posted those numbers at the combine. Brockers was 322lbs at the combine. You're numbers are skewed saying Geathers did that at 320lbs. There is a 26lbs difference between players. That is quite a bit when it comes to agility tests.

[Macnalty]

[QUOTE=xwalker;4490583]Overrated - Ben Jones OC (2nd/3rd) – I just don’t get it. He gets pushed back in the pocket, gets beat off the snap, is often on the ground and looks un-athletic in open space.

Superb pass blocker(wall builder) wants to be a power run blocker and he is not, as soon as he realizes (coaching) how a new technique( Stepnoski two step) makes him a better than average run blocker you can consider him the best center in the draft. Most teams see these traits in him and thus rate him so high. Did I mention he was a wall builder(as the Germans say wand generator) for passing?


Love the Chris Rainey chap but so much baggage(stalking old gf) makes one consider his maturity level. If he gets straightened out someone gets a special player. Not RKG with available information. IMO

[InmanRoshi]

[QUOTE=xwalker;4490583]Overrated - Ben Jones OC (2nd/3rd) – I just don’t get it. He gets pushed back in the pocket, gets beat off the snap, is often on the ground and looks un-athletic in open space.

Superb pass blocker(wall builder) wants to be a power run blocker and he is not, as soon as he realizes (coaching) how a new technique( Stepnoski two step) makes him a better than average run blocker you can consider him the best center in the draft. Most teams see these traits in him and thus rate him so high. Did I mention he was a wall builder(as the Germans say wand generator) for passing?


Love the Chris Rainey chap but so much baggage(stalking old gf) makes one consider his maturity level. If he gets straightened out someone gets a special player. Not RKG with available information. IMO

Yeah, that's what I see in Ben Jones. I don't see a Nick Mangold guy who's going to walk a nosetackle 8 yards straight backwards, but I see him as a great zone blocking system offensive linemen because he's tenacious, smart, understands leverage and angles and gets into position out of his snap incredibly quick. He was a high performance 4 year starter in a conference that turns out more NFL interior defensive linemen than any in the country. Jones faced more NFL caliber interior defensive tackles in a month than DeCastro saw in 2-3 years.

[28 Joker]

I think Kirkpatrick and Gilmore will both go in the top 20 and go pretty close to one another. I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder with those two. I'm warming up to Kirkpatrick, but I still give Gilmore a slight edge. I think Dallas has Kirkpatrick rated ahead, but I'd like to see Gilmore invited to Dallas and seriously considered by the Cowboys.

The gap between Konz and Blake/Jones is huge. Konz is a former offensive tackle who has very good athleticism, short-area quickness, instincts, and awareness. Konz is the perfect fit in Dallas' zone angle running scheme. Konz has a very strong anchor and finishes his blocks and is very good on the second level. Konz played at Wisconsin and anchored a nasty line.

Blake's combine strength doesn't translate into his run blocking on tape. Blake didn't play with the power that he showed on his bench press. Jones is no where near as athletic as Konz. Jones is limited athletically.

Callahan will push hard for Konz, imso.

[28 Joker]

I think Gilmore has been underrated, and I could see where you could say that Kirkpatrick was a little overrated, especially when compared to Gilmore. Again, if Gilmore played at Alabama or LSU, is he such a late riser?

I think Gilmore was a more explosive, more productive player at South Carolina than Kirkpatrick was at Alabama. Importantly, Gilmore can win at the bottom and top of the route, and that includes the top of the route (on a receiver's cut). I think Gilmore is faster, and I think Gilmore can man the slot in the NFL. He put up a great 20 yard shuttle, and he played the slot some at South Carolina. Plus, Gilmore seems like a much cleaner player, and that includes the intangibles. Gilmore can be very physical at the line of scrimmage and use his length and size, too. I think Gilmore is a scheme diverse player, and he can play any way that you want him to play.

My "slight edge" to Gilmore is probably a little more than "slight". I think it's more like "edge" to Gilmore. However, I do like Kirkpatrick, too. Again, I think they are both top 20 picks.

Kirkpatrick is a good player, too. Kirkpatrick has size/length, athleticism, physicality, and toughness. He wins at the bottom of the route with his physical style of play. Plus, he played multiple schemes at Alabama. That makes him very attractive to Dallas and Rob Ryan.

I wouldn't be shocked at all if Dallas picked Dre Kirkpatrick. I think the pick can be justified. Kirkpatrick is a good football player who can help the Cowboys, imo. However, I'd still pick Gilmore.