Please do not draft a 3-4 DE at pick 14

[CowboyManDan]

Looking through mock drafts some, I just wanna rant some and say am not on board with drafting a DE for the 3-4 at pick 14. I just don't think DE's in the 3-4 defense are worth a pick in the top half of the first round. Why? Because I don't think 3-4 DEs are typically put in position to be play making type of players. They generally are run stoppers and gap controllers, ala Marcus Spears (who himself was a 1st rounder), Kenyon Coleman, Igor Olshansky, Chris Canty, etc. They are not going to impact our defense like we need, especially at pick 14. Plus I think solid they can be found in later rounds (2-7).

A 4-3 DE is altogether different. I'm fine with going OLB at 14 because that is a position in the 3-4 that is put into position to make bigger plays and have more impact and is harder to find in later rounds. Especially since Spencer's days could be numbered.

I really think the first round pick should be a OLB, or G/C. S can wait a round or two I think, unless we can trade down, get an extra pick, and still get a guy like Barron.

[cowboysooner]

Take a look at the Steelers, Ravens, Texans, 49ers who are the best 3-4 teams. The strongest part of each team are the front 3. Only the Jets are better in the back end than the front. Look at the mid 2000's Patriots. Those defenses were led by Ted Washington/Wilfolk, Warren and Seymour.

[bhamzspecial]

Maybe you don't get it but football game are won in the trenches

[Bluestang]

Looking through mock drafts some, I just wanna rant some and say am not on board with drafting a DE for the 3-4 at pick 14. I just don't think DE's in the 3-4 defense are worth a pick in the top half of the first round. Why? Because I don't think 3-4 DEs are typically put in position to be play making type of players. They generally are run stoppers and gap controllers, ala Marcus Spears (who himself was a 1st rounder), Kenyon Coleman, Igor Olshansky, Chris Canty, etc. They are not going to impact our defense like we need, especially at pick 14. Plus I think solid they can be found in later rounds (2-7).

A 4-3 DE is altogether different. I'm fine with going OLB at 14 because that is a position in the 3-4 that is put into position to make bigger plays and have more impact and is harder to find in later rounds. Especially since Spencer's days could be numbered.

I really think the first round pick should be a OLB, or G/C. S can wait a round or two I think, unless we can trade down, get an extra pick, and still get a guy like Barron.


Marcus Spears is an underchiever at his position and draft status. You always want to get pressure with less players and not more. I would be happy with a 3-4 DE that is an every down player that can slide inside in nickel situations.

[GloryDaysRBack]

Yeah, look how stupid Houston looks for taking Watt at 10..

[CATCH17]

Marcus Spears is an underchiever at his position and draft status. You always want to get pressure with less players and not more. I would be happy with a 3-4 DE that is an every down player that can slide inside in nickel situations.


Marcus Spears would've been a nice 3rd round pick but the guy is not dynamic enough to be a 1st rounder.

We need a JPP JJ Watt type and Fletcher Cox looks like that guy.

The problem is we probably won't get a shot at him.

[Dcowboy84]

i would agree with you in most cases but i would make an exception for Fletcher Cox.

this guy looks like a guy who can be stout against the run but also be a force in the pass rush.

i picture him on the weak side with Ware and see big potential there.


granted the likelihood he makes it to 14 at this point is slim, and i still lean towards Barron....but i wouldn't complain at all with Cox

[cowboy_ron]

Maybe you don't get it but football game are won in the trenches
nuff said right there

[ABQcowboyJR]

I'm hoping for Cox or Poe right now. Get the big nasties early and often.

[JBell523]

Justin Smith disagrees.

[InmanRoshi]

We're playing 3-4 and 4-3 techniques. Most 3-4 teams are running hybrid systems now. NFL teams are running advanced calculus schemes, and people are still trying to equate it to remedial math.

[tm1119]

Marcus Spears would've been a nice 3rd round pick but the guy is not dynamic enough to be a 1st rounder.

We need a JPP JJ Watt type and Fletcher Cox looks like that guy.

The problem is we probably won't get a shot at him.

JJ Watt Senior Year- 62 tackles, 11.5 Sacks, 21 TFL
Fletcher Cox Junior Year- 56 tackles, 5 sacks, 14.5 TFL

JJ Watt combine #'s- 6'5 290 34" Arms, 4.84 40, 34 Reps, 37" Vert, 120" Broad, 6.88 3 Cone, 4.21 20 yard shuttle

Fletcher Cox combine #'s- 6'4 298 34" arms, 4.79 40, 30 Reps, 26" Vert, 103" Broad, 7.07 3 Cone, 4.53 Shuttle

So Cox wasnt even close to as productive in college as Watt nor is he the athlete that Watt is. Fletcher Cox is not the prospect Watt was last year, not really all that close to be honest. I agree that we need to get an upgrade at DE through the draft this year, but Cox at 14 is just not the wise choice in my opinion. Cox will make a good 4-3 DT, but I can see him getting lost in the double teams a 3-4 DE will routinely face and quickly become an after thought just like Spears. Coples is the only DE I want if he falls. If not I think we can get a guy in the 2nd that can match the production Cox would give us in the 3-4. Worthy, Thompson, Still, Reyes or Winn would all present an upgrade and much better value at #45.

[theogt]

A few years ago I would have agreed with you. I ridiculed the 49ers for spending so much on Justin Smith. But with the emergence of guys like Smith, Calais Campbell and J.J. Watt, I think it's reasonable to go for these undersized passrushing 3-4 DEs. I think Cox will be in that group.

[calicowboy54]

JJ Watt Senior Year- 62 tackles, 11.5 Sacks, 21 TFL
Fletcher Cox Junior Year- 56 tackles, 5 sacks, 14.5 TFL

JJ Watt combine #'s- 6'5 290 34" Arms, 4.84 40, 34 Reps, 37" Vert, 120" Broad, 6.88 3 Cone, 4.21 20 yard shuttle

Fletcher Cox combine #'s- 6'4 298 34" arms, 4.79 40, 30 Reps, 26" Vert, 103" Broad, 7.07 3 Cone, 4.53 Shuttle

So Cox wasnt even close to as productive in college as Watt nor is he the athlete that Watt is. Fletcher Cox is not the prospect Watt was last year, not really all that close to be honest. I agree that we need to get an upgrade at DE through the draft this year, but Cox at 14 is just not the wise choice in my opinion. Cox will make a good 4-3 DT, but I can see him getting lost in the double teams a 3-4 DE will routinely face and quickly become an after thought just like Spears. Coples is the only DE I want if he falls. If not I think we can get a guy in the 2nd that can match the production Cox would give us in the 3-4. Worthy, Thompson, Still, Reyes or Winn would all present an upgrade and much better value at #45.



I have to say he is spot on about this one Cox is not in Watt's league

[JBell523]

JJ Watt combine #'s- 6'5 290 34" Arms, 4.84 40, 34 Reps, 37" Vert, 120" Broad, 6.88 3 Cone, 4.21 20 yard shuttle


:eek: lawd. Dude's a freak.

[ABQcowboyJR]

:eek: lawd. Dude's a freak.
He was originally a TE recruit I think.

[theogt]

JJ Watt Senior Year- 62 tackles, 11.5 Sacks, 21 TFL
Fletcher Cox Junior Year- 56 tackles, 5 sacks, 14.5 TFL

JJ Watt combine #'s- 6'5 290 34" Arms, 4.84 40, 34 Reps, 37" Vert, 120" Broad, 6.88 3 Cone, 4.21 20 yard shuttle

Fletcher Cox combine #'s- 6'4 298 34" arms, 4.79 40, 30 Reps, 26" Vert, 103" Broad, 7.07 3 Cone, 4.53 Shuttle

So Cox wasnt even close to as productive in college as Watt nor is he the athlete that Watt is. Fletcher Cox is not the prospect Watt was last year, not really all that close to be honest. I agree that we need to get an upgrade at DE through the draft this year, but Cox at 14 is just not the wise choice in my opinion. Cox will make a good 4-3 DT, but I can see him getting lost in the double teams a 3-4 DE will routinely face and quickly become an after thought just like Spears. Coples is the only DE I want if he falls. If not I think we can get a guy in the 2nd that can match the production Cox would give us in the 3-4. Worthy, Thompson, Still, Reyes or Winn would all present an upgrade and much better value at #45.Watt only had 7 sacks in his senior year and, if we're comparing to Cox's junior year, then Watt only had 4.5 sacks in his junior year.

Things look different when you're not looking at the right information.

[Ren]

Yeah, look how stupid Houston looks for taking Watt at 10..

There's no one that good in this years draft. There's no point in drafting one for the sake of drafting one and hope picking him a early makes him better then what he is

[Dash28]

JJ Watt Senior Year- 62 tackles, 11.5 Sacks, 21 TFL
Fletcher Cox Junior Year- 56 tackles, 5 sacks, 14.5 TFL

JJ Watt combine #'s- 6'5 290 34" Arms, 4.84 40, 34 Reps, 37" Vert, 120" Broad, 6.88 3 Cone, 4.21 20 yard shuttle

Fletcher Cox combine #'s- 6'4 298 34" arms, 4.79 40, 30 Reps, 26" Vert, 103" Broad, 7.07 3 Cone, 4.53 Shuttle

So Cox wasnt even close to as productive in college as Watt nor is he the athlete that Watt is. Fletcher Cox is not the prospect Watt was last year, not really all that close to be honest. I agree that we need to get an upgrade at DE through the draft this year, but Cox at 14 is just not the wise choice in my opinion. Cox will make a good 4-3 DT, but I can see him getting lost in the double teams a 3-4 DE will routinely face and quickly become an after thought just like Spears. Coples is the only DE I want if he falls. If not I think we can get a guy in the 2nd that can match the production Cox would give us in the 3-4. Worthy, Thompson, Still, Reyes or Winn would all present an upgrade and much better value at #45.
Where did you get that Watt had 11.5 sacks his SR season?

[Chocolate Lab]

Plus, as far as the production goes, Cox played in a vastly superior conference on a perennially undermanned team. Watt played on one of the best teams in the country in a comparatively lousy conference.

[InmanRoshi]

Two different styles of players to me. Cox is Richard Seymore and Watt is Julius Peppers. Cox is just more powerful in his base than Watt is and more capable of playing 3 tech. Watt is probably a strongside DE in a 4-3, while Cox plays inside 3 tech DT. Watt was purely playing 7 or even 9 tech in Wisconsin's 4-3 over the OTs outside shoulder. Cox moved all over the line and is is often playing nose and splitting double teams in the SEC. I would also add that Cox just turned 21 four month ago, came out as a true junior and still has a lot of ceiling to reach physically.

Watt is a perfect fit in Wade's one gap 3-4. Cox is a perfect fit for Ryan's multiple look 3-4/4-3 hybrid lining up all over the line.

[tm1119]

Watt only had 7 sacks in his senior year and, if we're comparing to Cox's junior year, then Watt only had 4.5 sacks in his junior year.

Things look different when you're not looking at the right information.

Ok youre right, 11.5 sacks was Watt's JR and SR year combined. But I took their year directly before they entered the NFL draft which is what directly impacts their draft stock. Clearly, I cant use stats from Cox's SR year :rolleyes:

[theogt]

Two different styles of players to me. Cox is Richard Seymore and Watt is Julius Peppers. Cox is just more powerful in his base than Watt is and more capable of playing 3 tech. Watt is probably a strongside DE in a 4-3, while Cox plays inside 3 tech DT. Watt was purely playing 7 or even 9 tech in Wisconsin's 4-3 over the OTs outside shoulder. Cox moved all over the line and is is often playing nose and splitting double teams in the SEC. I would also add that Cox just turned 21 four month ago, came out as a true junior and still has a lot of ceiling to reach physically.

Watt is a perfect fit in Wade's one gap 3-4. Cox is a perfect fit for Ryan's multiple look 3-4/4-3 hybrid lining up all over the line.I actually think they're pretty similar build and athleticism.

[theogt]

Ok youre right, 11.5 sacks was Watt's JR and SR year combined. But I took their year directly before they entered the NFL draft which is what directly impacts their draft stock. Clearly, I cant use stats from Cox's SR year :rolleyes:If Watt and Cox both came out in the same year and both were following their junior year, I think it'd be a coin flip who was drafted higher. But whatever. Clearly you've got it all figured out and we're clueless.

[tm1119]

If Watt and Cox both came out in the same year and both were following their junior year, I think it'd be a coin flip who was drafted higher. But whatever. Clearly you've got it all figured out and we're clueless.

Lets ignore the years they came out and the stats for a second...You can look at those combine #'s and honestly tell me it would be close to who gets drafted 1st? Watt would be head and shoulders above Cox every time.

Look, I like Cox as a prospect. I think he could make some 3-4 team very happy if thats who selects him. I just dont see him being able to stand out in the 3-4 scheme we play most of the time. He doesnt have the rare size, speed and strength combo as a Watt or Campbell to excel.

Just my 2 cents

[cowboysooner]

Lets ignore the years they came out and the stats for a second...You can look at those combine #'s and honestly tell me it would be close to who gets drafted 1st? Watt would be head and shoulders above Cox every time.

Look, I like Cox as a prospect. I think he could make some 3-4 team very happy if thats who selects him. I just dont see him being able to stand out in the 3-4 scheme we play most of the time. He doesnt have the rare size, speed and strength combo as a Watt or Campbell to excel.

Just my 2 cents

4.8 at 300 is not rare????
7.09 3 cone for 300 is rare. Watt may have had the best dline combine ever but Cox is great

[theogt]

Lets ignore the years they came out and the stats for a second...You can look at those combine #'s and honestly tell me it would be close to who gets drafted 1st? Watt would be head and shoulders above Cox every time.

Look, I like Cox as a prospect. I think he could make some 3-4 team very happy if thats who selects him. I just dont see him being able to stand out in the 3-4 scheme we play most of the time. He doesnt have the rare size, speed and strength combo as a Watt or Campbell to excel.

Just my 2 centsIf all someone looked at was combine numbers, yes, Watt would be drafted higher.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious. It was a helpful contribution to the discussion.

[Risen Star]

Maybe you don't get it but football game are won in the trenches

Plus one.

The rant of a man who doesn't understand the game.

I can't see him make the play, so I don't want him.

[tm1119]

If all someone looked at was combine numbers, yes, Watt would be drafted higher.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious. It was a helpful contribution to the discussion.

***? You literally just said it would be a "coin flip". But I'm done with this. You're not even trying to have an intelligent discussion, instead you're just trying to not pick at every post to try and turn in it your favor. I'll agree to disagree and move on.

[theogt]

***? You literally just said it would be a "coin flip". But I'm done with this. You're not even trying to have an intelligent discussion, instead you're just trying to not pick at every post to try and turn in it your favor. I'll agree to disagree and move on.You're not terribly bright from what I can tell. It's probably best you gave up.

[cowboysooner]

Crick is the one that there is no middle ground on. I'm not concerned with the pec it is the concussions. If his medical is good then he is a 1st round pick. If his head is scrambled then he is Jahvid Best and too unreliable to play for you.

[kmd24]

Ok youre right, 11.5 sacks was Watt's JR and SR year combined. But I took their year directly before they entered the NFL draft which is what directly impacts their draft stock. Clearly, I cant use stats from Cox's SR year :rolleyes:

Cox played primarily DT while Watt played DE. You can't meaningfully compare their sack stats.

Cox's vertical and broad jump weren't good, but if you watch his combine video, it looks like he was struggling with technique more than athletic ability. He sure looked explosive in games.

[InmanRoshi]

He doesnt have the rare size, speed and strength combo as a Watt or Campbell to excel.

Just my 2 cents

A 300 lbs. man who runs a 4.79 and a 7.07 3 cone is pretty friggin rare. He pretty much demolished the field in his 3 cone drill. He just turned 21 four months ago and didn't come out of a very good program. He was first team all SEC and is still just a baby.

[Manwiththeplan]

I just don't think DE's in the 3-4 defense are worth a pick in the top half of the first round. Why? Because I don't think 3-4 DEs are typically put in position to be play making type of players. They generally are run stoppers and gap controllers, ala Marcus Spears (who himself was a 1st rounder), Kenyon Coleman, Igor Olshansky, Chris Canty, etc. They are not going to impact our defense like we need, especially at pick 14. Plus I think solid they can be found in later rounds (2-7).


Marcel Dareus and JJ Watt say hello. On the other line also waiting to say hello are Haloti Ngata and Ty Warren.

[DWAREZ]

I would grab Fletcher Cox in a heartbeat, definitely take him at 14 if available!

[The Realist]

I think I like Barron slighter better than Cox, but those 2 are the only 2 defenders I would be happy with in 1.

The most amazing Watt stat is the 14 PBU's Jr. and Sr. year.

[visionary]

Two different styles of players to me. Cox is Richard Seymore and Watt is Julius Peppers. Cox is just more powerful in his base than Watt is and more capable of playing 3 tech. Watt is probably a strongside DE in a 4-3, while Cox plays inside 3 tech DT. Watt was purely playing 7 or even 9 tech in Wisconsin's 4-3 over the OTs outside shoulder. Cox moved all over the line and is is often playing nose and splitting double teams in the SEC. I would also add that Cox just turned 21 four month ago, came out as a true junior and still has a lot of ceiling to reach physically.

Watt is a perfect fit in Wade's one gap 3-4. Cox is a perfect fit for Ryan's multiple look 3-4/4-3 hybrid lining up all over the line.

given the OG value in round 2, it seems more and more likely to me that rd 1 pick will be barron or cox

there might even be pretty god OGs in round 3 so we could go

1) barron
2) Crick/Reyes/Wolff
3) Brooks

and so on

[Gaede]

The exact argument made against JJ Watt last year.

Some people just don't learn.

[InmanRoshi]

When you actually watch the games again on NFL.com's Game Rewind and pay attention, it's pretty remarkable how infrequently the Cowboys actually line up in a base 3-4. It's pretty pointless to get so caught up in the scheme. You might as well spend your time worrying whether players fit in a 2-4-5.

[RoyTheHammer]

...but i wouldn't complain at all with Cox

I bet you wouldn't..

:D

[ThreeandOut]

When you actually watch the games again on NFL.com's Game Rewind and pay attention, it's pretty remarkable how infrequently the Cowboys actually line up in a base 3-4. It's pretty pointless to get so caught up in the scheme. You might as well spend your time worrying whether players fit in a 2-4-5.

Exactly, the Cowboys are usually in a four man line in nickle situations. So if you are going to spend a high pick on a 3-4 end, then he needs to be able to play DT for you in a 4 man front.

[RoyTheHammer]

I would grab Cox in a heartbeat, definitely take him at 14 if available!

Oh my! :eek:

[SDogo]

I can't believe after the last 3 or 4 years where this has been such a hot topic button it took this long to come up again.

I got bored with it last year and promised to never dive back into it. If people can't see the difference a legit 3-4 DE can make in this defense I don't have the energy to point it out again.

[burmafrd]

I can't believe after the last 3 or 4 years where this has been such a hot topic button it took this long to come up again.

I got bored with it last year and promised to never dive back into it. If people can't see the difference a legit 3-4 DE can make in this defense I don't have the energy to point it out again.

the question is - is there any in this draft worth the #14 pick?

If you cannot get someone like Richard Seymour then I would not use the #14 on one.

[theogt]

Other than Cox, no.

[SDogo]

the question is - is there any in this draft worth the #14 pick?

If you cannot get someone like Richard Seymour then I would not use the #14 on one.


THIS.

Other than Cox, no.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

When you actually watch the games again on NFL.com's Game Rewind and pay attention, it's pretty remarkable how infrequently the Cowboys actually line up in a base 3-4. It's pretty pointless to get so caught up in the scheme. You might as well spend your time worrying whether players fit in a 2-4-5.

Its because we don't have the horses to run it. Ryan adjusts his scheme to the strengths of his players and asking Ratliff to 2-gap from the 0 is folly.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Exactly, the Cowboys are usually in a four man line in nickle situations. So if you are going to spend a high pick on a 3-4 end, then he needs to be able to play DT for you in a 4 man front.

Ware Ratliff Cox Spencer with Butler and Hatcher rotating in would be a great nickel rotation.

I have warmed up to the idea of Poe however assuming that the coaches have identified technique issues that they can correct so his athleticism can translate onto the field.

[theogt]

Its because we don't have the horses to run it. Ryan adjusts his scheme to the strengths of his players and asking Ratliff to 2-gap from the 0 is folly.It's generally true of every 3-4 team. Well, the part about the base 3-4 being used less often than most people think is true. It's still the most used front, though.

[InmanRoshi]

Its because we don't have the horses to run it. Ryan adjusts his scheme to the strengths of his players and asking Ratliff to 2-gap from the 0 is folly.

He ran the same scheme with the Browns when he had Ahtyba Rubin. He's a multiple look guy, end of story. He runs a 2 man line in nickel as much as he runs a 4 man line. I just rewatched the Seahawks last night, and he lined up in 2 man line with Ratliff over the nose, Spencer hand on the ground 7 tech and 5 linebackers in the box with Ware standing up in a 2 point stance directly in front of Robert Gallery at guard (he put Gallery on his butt with a bullrush). Is rushing Ware like a standup defensive tackle tailoring to his strength?

As I said, he's running an advanced calculus defense, and people are equating it to their elementary school arithmetic grasp of defenses.

[burmafrd]

He ran the same scheme with the Browns when he had Ahtyba Rubin. He's a multiple look guy, end of story. He runs a 2 man line in nickel as much as he runs a 4 man line. I just rewatched the Seahawks last night, and he lined up in 2 man line with Ratliff over the nose, Spencer hand on the ground 7 tech and 5 linebackers in the box with Ware standing up in a 2 point stance directly in front of Robert Gallery at guard (he put Gallery on his butt with a bullrush). Is rushing Ware like a standup defensive tackle tailoring to his strength?

As I said, he's running an advanced calculus defense, and people are equating it to their elementary school arithmetic grasp of defenses.

of course one of our problems is that we have some players apparently unable to figure out his defense themselves

[InmanRoshi]

of course one of our problems is that we have some players apparently unable to figure out his defense themselves

Considering it was largely the same players put up the 31st ranked defense under Wade, who went on to have one of the best defenses in the NFL with different players in 2012, it seems having too many dumb/bad players on defense was more of a problem than the scheme being overly complex.

[CATCH17]

Considering it was largely the same players put up the 31st ranked defense under Wade, who went on to have one of the best defenses in the NFL with different players in 2012, it seems having too many dumb/bad players on defense was more of a problem than the scheme being overly complex.

I thought it was obvious we had a bunch of crap on defense.

People still think it's coaching?