The Great Ingram Debate

[CowboysLaw87]

From early on in this draft process, I've had two favorites: Melvin Ingram and David DeCastro. I've grown to love Barron and Cox as possibilities too, but with Cox likely being out of our range I've reverted back to thinking about Melvin Ingram, who at this point very well may be available. And I think I'm changing my tune on him.

I originally viewed him as perhaps the most explosive rusher in the draft. Quick first step, great spin move, fluid in his motions, and incredibly versatile (can rush from literally any position in the front 7). But in looking further, I find myself unsure about these two characteristics: short arms/general gross lack of length and anchor v. the run.

The anchoring v. the run part becomes particularly important because the writing seems to be on the wall for Spencer's eventual departure. This means we'll need a new full-time starting SOLB. Therefore, we wouldn't draft Ingram if we didn't think he could be that guy. The team has opined and I agree that a huge part of the responsibility at SOLB is "setting the edge." I'm not sure Ingram can do that because his short arms will allow OT's and TE's to lock onto him easily, and he's really more of a finesse player. He's got a squatty build that's suitable for run stopping, but he didn't show a ton of interest in anchoring v. the run at South Carolina.

The short arms are an obvious disadvantage in pass rushing, where you need to maintain separation from lineman. The 3 most important measurables for rushers are their short shuttle, 3-cone drill, and arm length IMO. Ingram had the shortest arms of any DL or LB at the combine. I guess I'm not saying I'd be upset if he's our pick at 14 by any means, but he doesn't look to be a can't miss, bonafide replacement for Spencer. I've got him below both Barron and DeCastro at this point.

[jterrell]

Ingram isn't a top flight 4-3 DE prospect largely based upon his arm length.

He has no issues with anchoring versus the run or with quickness or explosion scores however. Those are both top notch. He anchored inside at DT in the SEC.

He is very explosive on tape against draftable SEC talent.

He was 3rd amongst all pass rushers in the combined explosion metric:
Bench +Vert+Broad Jump

He ranked 5th in collegiate sacks over his career and 6th in tackles for loss.
He didn't play on the line every play so produced quite a lopt for a part-time DT/part-time ILB/part-time DE.

To me the safest pick in this draft is Kuch. But Ingram isn't far behind. He may not have the ceiling of an elite guy like Ware but he has great hands, great power, great awareness ... as well as a solid bull rush and spin move. Those are moves Spencer spent 3 NFL years obtaining.

BTB did a great job breaking down all metrics and Ingram was the only guy to hit all the major marks. Agility, Speed, Production and Agility.


http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2012/2/28/2830352/2012-nfl-combine-outside-linebacker-prospects-under-the-microscope

[SDogo]

I have been in a love/hate relationship with Ingram for the last 3 months. There was a time I doubt he had a bigger fan....at this point I'm getting splinters up my butt from sitting on the fence.

[theogt]

I see a Lamar Woodley clone and wonder what's not to like.

[CATCH17]

I have been in a love/hate relationship with Ingram for the last 3 months. There was a time I doubt he had a bigger fan....at this point I'm getting splinters up my butt from sitting on the fence.


It's those stubby arms!

[BrAinPaiNt]

I have been in a love/hate relationship with Ingram for the last 3 months. There was a time I doubt he had a bigger fan....at this point I'm getting splinters up my butt from sitting on the fence.

You have gotten my attention...tell me more. :eek: :p:

On a serious note...It's hard not to like the guy because of his motor and production but you also worry a little due if he would fit right in your system and the measurables.

[cowboysooner]

I just don't see how he gets to us. I've thought for awhile that Ingram to the Jags just does not fit, but Ingram to KC or Arizona seems like a natural. Those teams have some nice 3rd and 4th round picks playing for them outside, but he would immediately improve their olb play and given his versatility he would be a slam dunk pick for either.

[Deep_Freeze]

I just don't see how he gets to us. I've thought for awhile that Ingram to the Jags just does not fit, but Ingram to KC or Arizona seems like a natural. Those teams have some nice 3rd and 4th round picks playing for them outside, but he would immediately improve their olb play and given his versatility he would be a slam dunk pick for either.

Yeah I don't see him being there, but if he is, we would probably have to take him. I could see the Jerry big grin saying, 'I can't believe he fell to us', then immediately putting Spencer on the unemployment line.

Those T-Rex arms do bother me though and it will be something he will have to work through.

[johnnyd]

There was a similar thread a few weeks back talking about all the OLB candidates and this quote about Ingram has stuck with me whenever i hear his name.

Melvin Ingram, South Carolina: He moved around a lot in college and has experience playing OLB, but NFL teams have struggled finding a position for him in the pros. At 6-1, 264, Ingram may be too short and compact for outside linebacker. He has 31 ½ inch arms. That’s trouble. “Big tackles and tight ends will be able to get their hands on him, and then he’s done,” one personnel man said

[Idgit]

I like the player. I don't see him as an upgrade to Spencer, though, and would hate to use our first pick to tread water when we've got other needs.

[tm1119]

I like him. He reminds me more of James Harrison than Woodley. Dumerville is a good comparison as well. They both have 32 inch arms and it doesn't seem to bother them too much.

[BlindFaith]

http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2012/2/28/2830352/2012-nfl-combine-outside-linebacker-prospects-under-the-microscope

That was a great article. Thanks for sharing.

[AbeBeta]

I see a Lamar Woodley clone and wonder what's not to like.

So that means we pass on him for a guy who more looks the part?

[jterrell]

If Ingram had 36" arms he'd be a top 5 pick IMHO.

He has the other measurables you want in an edge pass rusher and has more strength, run playing skills and hands than you'd ask for even if being greedy.

The stubbiness is a wart but that's the only reason he has a chance to make it to 14.

Ware had warts too... it's just hard to believe they ever existed now because we see him dominate every week.

Ingram versus Spencer isn't close. Ingram is a far better player. He has a much more versatile skill set and played the very best in college and the Senior Bowl standing out.

I still say Cox, Ingram, trade down.

[theogt]

None of these guys have 36" arms.

Dwight Freeney 32 3/4-inch
Lamar Woodley 32 7/8-inch
Clay Mattews 32 1/4-inch arm length
Trent Cole 32 7/8-inch

Are we really making a big deal out of 1" arm difference? That seems ridiculous.

[Deep_Freeze]

If Ingram had 36" arms he'd be a top 5 pick IMHO.

He has the other measurables you want in an edge pass rusher and has more strength, run playing skills and hands than you'd ask for even if being greedy.

The stubbiness is a wart but that's the only reason he has a chance to make it to 14.

Ware had warts too... it's just hard to believe they ever existed now because we see him dominate every week.

Yeah at this time of the year, every prospect is picked apart. But Ingram would be perfect for a Ryan D, and heck if Jerry just wanted to spend money he could keep Spencer for a year and move Ingram all around the field.

I don't think he will be there, but if he is, we just have to think about picking him up.

[CowboysLaw87]

His metrics for explosion were all great. Short shuttle and 3-cone drill were in the top 3 of DL at the Combine. The production and versatility is there too. All of this is why I'm not saying I'd be upset with the pick at 14.

I am saying, however, that I don't think his overall skill set makes him an ideal replacement for Spencer, and while some may think it's "stupid" to look at arm length, I am concerned about it. It has been called the measurement that is most highly correlated to success as a pass rusher.

[MichaelWinicki]

His metrics for explosion were all great. Short shuttle and 3-cone drill were in the top 3 of DL at the Combine. The production and versatility is there too. All of this is why I'm not saying I'd be upset with the pick at 14.

I am saying, however, that I don't think his overall skill set makes him an ideal replacement for Spencer, and while some may think it's "stupid" to look at arm length, I am concerned about it. It has been called the measurement that is most highly correlated to success as a pass rusher.

That's how I see it.

He's short + he has short arms... Shorter than the other guys in both height and arm reach.

And it's not like his speed is "electric". We're not talking a sub 4.6 guy here.

On top of that he was productive in college, but hardly dominant in his senior year save for a couple of games. He went a month between sacks. We're not talking someone like Terrell Suggs who had 22 sacks his final year.

[JackWagon]

I have been in a love/hate relationship with Ingram for the last 3 months. There was a time I doubt he had a bigger fan....at this point I'm getting splinters up my butt from sitting on the fence.

*chuckle* ... i hate when that happens :)

[CashMan]

I think after hearing all of the negative on Von Miller pre draft, has me rethinking a little when there are knocks on these guys. Before hand, I was always thinking about how Mike Mamula moved up the boards with his combine.

[jterrell]

That's how I see it.

He's short + he has short arms... Shorter than the other guys in both height and arm reach.

And it's not like his speed is "electric". We're not talking a sub 4.6 guy here.

On top of that he was productive in college, but hardly dominant in his senior year save for a couple of games. He went a month between sacks. We're not talking someone like Terrell Suggs who had 22 sacks his final year.

Mike, the last bit is the type of nonsense that confuses the reality.

Suggs was a 1 dimensional every down pass rusher in college. He wasn't asked to do anything else but attack off the edge and he was very good at it.

I really liked him coming out BTW.

Ingram didn't consistently play on the edge and wasn't always asked to rush.
The SEC right now is a run first league. Ingram was used inside quite a lot to stop the run.

He also dropped as a backer into coverage. But still his career totals are above the bar for production at OLB. He made tremendously bigger impact in college than Demarcus Ware did.

End of the day you are trying to compare apples and oranges and then get mad the orange isnt as appley....

[tm1119]

Mike, the last bit is the type of nonsense that confuses the reality.

Suggs was a 1 dimensional every down pass rusher in college. He wasn't asked to do anything else but attack off the edge and he was very good at it.

I really liked him coming out BTW.

Ingram didn't consistently play on the edge and wasn't always asked to rush.
The SEC right now is a run first league. Ingram was used inside quite a lot to stop the run.

He also dropped as a backer into coverage. But still his career totals are above the bar for production at OLB. He made tremendously bigger impact in college than Demarcus Ware did.

End of the day you are trying to compare apples and oranges and then get mad the orange isnt as appley....

But...but....you mean the only thing that matters isn't sacks?

I swear some people here are ridiculous. They act like the only measurement for a front 7 player is sacks.

[MichaelWinicki]

Mike, the last bit is the type of nonsense that confuses the reality.

Suggs was a 1 dimensional every down pass rusher in college. He wasn't asked to do anything else but attack off the edge and he was very good at it.

I really liked him coming out BTW.

Ingram didn't consistently play on the edge and wasn't always asked to rush.
The SEC right now is a run first league. Ingram was used inside quite a lot to stop the run.

He also dropped as a backer into coverage. But still his career totals are above the bar for production at OLB. He made tremendously bigger impact in college than Demarcus Ware did.

End of the day you are trying to compare apples and oranges and then get mad the orange isnt as appley....

You're right it's not all about sacks, but isn't that the common complaint about Spencer? The guy doesn't get enough sacks? I'm not saying I agree with that sentiment, because quite frankly I'm OK with Spencer's production and would rather spend a first round draft pick on a DE, G or Safety.

[xwalker]

The short arms are an obvious disadvantage in pass rushing, where you need to maintain separation from lineman. The 3 most important measurables for rushers are their short shuttle, 3-cone drill, and arm length IMO. Ingram had the shortest arms of any DL or LB at the combine. I guess I'm not saying I'd be upset if he's our pick at 14 by any means, but he doesn't look to be a can't miss, bonafide replacement for Spencer. I've got him below both Barron and DeCastro at this point.

Ingram's SS and Cone times are the 2nd best out of the top 3-4 OLB prospects; however, his arms are either very short (combine measurement) or Phil Costa short (Pro Day measurement).

I would add the 10-yard split to the top 4 most important measurements.

http://www.walker-texas.com/2012-top-olb.jpg (http://www.walker-texas.com/2012-top-olb.jpg)

[Vintage]

Anything that nets dallas more pressure players gets an ok from me.

[hra8700]

I have been in a love/hate relationship with Ingram for the last 3 months. There was a time I doubt he had a bigger fan....at this point I'm getting splinters up my butt from sitting on the fence.

What do you think about his T.Rex arms? Did you notice it in his ability to leverage on tape before the combine measurements?