The Cowboy Way and Dontari Poe

[NeonDeion21]

Jason Garrett mentioned in his inauguration speech about doing things "The Cowboy Way" under his coaching tenure.

The 2011 Draft gave us an idea of what the Cowboy way is. 4 of the 8 players in the 2011 class were team captains in college. If you include DeMarco Murray who has served as a game-day captain for Oklahoma, the list includes 5 team captains.

Jason Garrett mentioned after the draft that he wanted to draft the right guys. When asked what kind of players he wanted to stay away from he said:
"(We want to avoid) the guys who don't love to play football. The guys who don't love to work. The guys who don't love to be around their teammates. The guys who don't love trying to be the best they can be.

To me, this seems to rule out a few types of players in the draft. Guys with inconsistent motors and players who have put other things ahead of football, such as a substance abuse problem.

The reason for this thread actually comes from a misconception about one player in this draft. Dontari' Poe has been linked and rumored to be a guy that Jason Garrett would want to avoid because of his lack of production at Memphis and his "workout warrior" label. I have come to the conclusion that this might not be the case at all.

Listening to Michael Lombardi on the B.S. Report with Bill Simmons, Lombardi mentioned how Poe is a hard worker, loves the game, and wants to become a great football player. I have read some scouting reports that have attributed his inconsistent play to playing too many snaps.

Another thing that was interesting about Poe is that he was a team captain at Memphis, which Coach Garrett obviously covets, and Poe also has the reputation of being very coach-able. With all of Poe's talent and desire to become a great football player, the rumors about Poe being the "apple of their (Dallas') eyes" could potentially be true.

[johnnyd]

Good so no Coples. Give me Ingram if the three headed cox-baron-decastro monster is gone.

[Teague31]

The more that comes out the more it looks like that Poe's lack of production in college had more to do with scheme and coaching than desire and effort.

[NeonDeion21]

Good so no Coples. Give me Ingram if the three headed cox-baron-decastro monster is gone.

I think Coples is one who will not be considered even though he has massive upside and immense talent.

[johnnyd]

I think Coples is one who will not be considered even though he has massive upside and immense talent.

i disagree he peeked as a junior , and sulked when they moved him to tackle as a sr. his lack of motor and look of disinterest spells bust to me but we shall see.

[NeonDeion21]

i disagree he peeked as a junior , and sulked when they moved him to tackle as a sr. his lack of motor and look of disinterest spells bust to me but we shall see.

I agree with you. I DON'T think Coples will be the pick nor should he.

[tm1119]

I think Coples is one who will not be considered even though he has massive upside and immense talent.

No way Coples isn't being considered whatsoever. That would be ridiculous. You're going to overlook a kid with all the talent in the world for 1 questionable year(where he had 7.5 sacks and 15.5 tfl playing mostly DT)? That's just doing a disjustice to your franchise to be honest. They would at least sit down and talk to the kid and see what he's about. If after that talk you didn't like him then fine, but no way he isn't being considered at all.

[ABQcowboyJR]

No way Coples isn't being considered whatsoever. That would be ridiculous. You're going to overlook a kid with all the talent in the world for 1 questionable year(where he had 7.5 sacks and 15.5 tfl playing mostly DT)? That's just doing a disjustice to your franchise to be honest. They would at least sit down and talk to the kid and see what he's about. If after that talk you didn't like him then fine, but no way he isn't being considered at all.
Couldn't agree more. He has the most talent outside of Luck and RGIII
.

[tm1119]

Couldn't agree more. He has the most talent outside of Luck and RGIII
.

I wouldn't say all that now......but I'd put him in the top 10 which should be a steal at 14.

[MichaelWinicki]

The more that comes out the more it looks like that Poe's lack of production in college had more to do with scheme and coaching than desire and effort.

But look at the kid's physical skills... like 350lbs, runs the 40 in less than 5 seconds and puts up a ridiculous number of bench presses at the combine.

Look at the conference he played in. He was a "man among boys". Scheme and coaching killing his production? Really?

He could have been put at safety with one arm tied behind his back and he should still have dominated at that level.

[Chuck 54]

Some of this motor stuff is crap when talking about the big boys.

Show me a 320-340 pound DLman who doesn't get tired and take plays off in the NFL. That's why teams with deep rotations like Dallas had in the 90's were so successful.

Huge talented guys like Poe are left on the field much more in college than they ever will be in the NFL....same is true of Brockers...a 322 lb 20 year old still growing into his body.

With guys like this you have to look at effort and talent when rested or at crunch time.

[Canadian BoyzFan]

The more that comes out the more it looks like that Poe's lack of production in college had more to do with scheme and coaching than desire and effort.

Or the fact he was lining up 30-50 percent of time as a 5 technique DE. Former coaches have admitted he was misused in the defense they ran. This kid should be and is a true NT.

[Risen Star]

Yeah, I don't see Poe as a character problem. It's become popular to criticize him though. So there ya go.

[Canadian BoyzFan]

But look at the kid's physical skills... like 350lbs, runs the 40 in less than 5 seconds and puts up a ridiculous number of bench presses at the combine.

Look at the conference he played in. He was a "man among boys". Scheme and coaching killing his production? Really?

He could have been put at safety with one arm tied behind his back and he should still have dominated at that level.

Oh BS.

[MichaelWinicki]

Oh BS.

Nice backup argument there. :rolleyes:

[MichaelWinicki]

Or the fact he was lining up 30-50 percent of time as a 5 technique DE. Former coaches have admitted he was misused in the defense they ran. This kid should be and is a true NT.

Broaddus reported today that there is no interest at Valley Ranch in moving Ratliff to DE.

[28 Joker]

Here is what Mike Lombardi wrote about Poe today:

7. I believe there are more teams infatuated with Memphis defensive tackle Dontari Poe than any other player. He is rare -- not only in terms of size and speed, but also in his willingness to work hard on improving his skill set. His solid character is making a big difference, and many teams are willing to take a chance on developing his raw ability.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82885edd/article/nfl-draft-forecast-chandler-jones-up-courtney-upshaw-down?module=HP11_cp

I just can't see Kansas City passing on this guy. They might do it, but it's hard to imagine. I think a 34 team will draft him. Dallas didn't bring him in, but they have been linked to him. It's interesting.

I think the Dallas defensive line would be upgraded significantly (in talent) if they added Cox, Poe, or Brockers.

[Canadian BoyzFan]

Nice backup argument there. :rolleyes:The part that most people don't seem to grasp about Poe is:
-He played on an awful 2-10 Memphis team. He was game planned for.
-He was misused imo as a 5 technique DE in a 3-4 defense along with some time at NT. He was awful at DE and this is where all the "bad tape" comments come from.
-Watch him when he plays as a NT. He pushes double teams back and plays the run stoutly Guard to Guard.
-The knock about low motor is bunk. Watch game highlights...he is all over the field trying to make plays.

He is by no means perfect and there are flaws, but don't believe everything you hear this time of year.

He is a NT ideally, and could play DT in a 4-3.
I would be thrilled to trade down into the 20s to get this guy while picking up a 2nd.

Edit-found this from his position coach...very good read:

As much as anything, Poe was limited by Memphis' defensive scheme. His main job was to provide gap control, meaning he was supposed to occupy blockers while linebackers and safeties made tackles.

"Based on what Dontari was asked to do, he did the job," said Mike DuBose, former University of Alabama head coach who was the UofM's defensive line coach the last two seasons before being fired with previous head coach Larry Porter and the rest of Porter's staff after going 2-22. "He knew he could make plays if the scheme of our defense had been different, but he didn't complain about it. He was a team guy."

[MichaelWinicki]

The part that most people don't seem to grasp about Poe is:
-He played on an awful 2-10 Memphis team. He was game planned for.
-He was misused imo as a 5 technique DE in a 3-4 defense along with some time at NT. He was awful at DE and this is where all the "bad tape" comments come from.
-Watch him when he plays as a NT. He pushes double teams back and plays the run stoutly Guard to Guard.
-The knock about low motor is bunk. Watch game highlights...he is all over the field trying to make plays.

He is by no means perfect and there are flaws, but don't believe everything you hear this time of year.

He is a NT ideally, and could play DT in a 4-3.
I would be thrilled to trade down into the 20s to get this guy while picking up a 2nd.

Edit-found this from his position coach...very good read:

As much as anything, Poe was limited by Memphis' defensive scheme. His main job was to provide gap control, meaning he was supposed to occupy blockers while linebackers and safeties made tackles.

"Based on what Dontari was asked to do, he did the job," said Mike DuBose, former University of Alabama head coach who was the UofM's defensive line coach the last two seasons before being fired with previous head coach Larry Porter and the rest of Porter's staff after going 2-22. "He knew he could make plays if the scheme of our defense had been different, but he didn't complain about it. He was a team guy."

I think the guys physical skills are sick. I'm not seeing him in Dallas unless the Cowboy's braintrust is more inclined to move Ratliff to DE.

[speedkilz88]

The "real" scouts from what I've seen are saying its bunk. He needs better technique and was overused on a bad team where offenses identified him as the only player to worry about and the offenses he faced were spread offenses that got the ball out quickly.

[speedkilz88]

I think the guys physical skills are sick. I'm not seeing him in Dallas unless the Cowboy's braintrust is more inclined to move Ratliff to DE.
Poe can play end and nt in a 3-4.

[MichaelWinicki]

Poe can play end and nt in a 3-4.

I just don't see him being type of 3-4 DE that Rob Ryan would want. I think that it's a smaller (thinner) guy who's going to run a little faster.

There was a post up above that mentioned Poe was playing out of position in college as a DE and that contributed to his poor performance.

[speedkilz88]

I just don't see him being type of 3-4 DE that Rob Ryan would want. I think that it's a smaller (thinner) guy who's going to run a little faster.

There was a post up above that mentioned Poe was playing out of position in college as a DE and that contributed to his poor performance.All I can say is you are wrong. Dude can definitely play the five technique.

[btcutter]

But look at the kid's physical skills... like 350lbs, runs the 40 in less than 5 seconds and puts up a ridiculous number of bench presses at the combine.

Look at the conference he played in. He was a "man among boys". Scheme and coaching killing his production? Really?

He could have been put at safety with one arm tied behind his back and he should still have dominated at that level.

I agree.

I don't care how they game plan, scheme you in college....you should have dominated.

There wasn't ONE single game that he completely dominated and flashed his potential.

Yes he may turn out to be a great pro but right now chances are he will be somewhere closer to Mike Mammula.

[Canadian BoyzFan]

I agree.

I don't care how they game plan, scheme you in college....you should have dominated.

There wasn't ONE single game that he completely dominated and flashed his potential.

Yes he may turn out to be a great pro but right now chances are he will be somewhere closer to Mike Mammula.

He's not an end...for sure.

[Zaxor]

Poe's problem wasn't from a lack of effort...he would lose sight of the ball and lacked awareness at times didn't play with his hands and arms extended which prevented him from accumulating stats....he has the talent to be all pro he really does but if he doesn't have football awareness all the talent in the world won't do him any good...Teams just don't know what he is and whether they can coach him up

[Joe Rod]

If the top three targets thrown around are gone (Barron, DeCastro and Cox), then I would roll the dice on him. Spencer's signing eliminates an OLB in the first and most of the other candidates have their warts anyway. Out of all of them, he is the only one that you can argue had some really poor coaching at the college level.

[visionary]

I think the guys physical skills are sick. I'm not seeing him in Dallas unless the Cowboy's braintrust is more inclined to move Ratliff to DE.

so now that there are clear comments completely contradicting what you said from his position coach and lombardi it is back to "dallas will not move ratliff to DE"

go figure:rolleyes:

IMO, we as fans, just dont know enough and make ridiculous statements

i am sure our front office has done their due diligence on him

i will accept it either way, if they pick him or pass on him

i will just not have a cow like some others on this forum if we pick him because he has the talent to completely change our defense if he is properly coached

[Yeagermeister]

The more that comes out the more it looks like that Poe's lack of production in college had more to do with scheme and coaching than desire and effort.

It did

Our defense was terrible and the coaching was worse. The Memphis D averaged giving up at least 30 or more points a game.

[AZBOYZFAN]

I have read some scouting reports that have attributed his inconsistent play to playing too many snaps.

What I have read is that Poe was the only player that people had to account for on that defense and that in large part they played him out of position at DE

[AZBOYZFAN]

[QUOTE=Chuck 54;4520388]
same is true of Brockers...a 322 lb 20 year old still growing into his body.[QUOTE]

This would be true if LSU didnt rotate 8 men on the DLINE

[speedkilz88]

I agree.

I don't care how they game plan, scheme you in college....you should have dominated.

There wasn't ONE single game that he completely dominated and flashed his potential.

Yes he may turn out to be a great pro but right now chances are he will be somewhere closer to Mike Mammula.
Yeah, lets just bring out stupid Mike Mamula comments. These are two different kind of players, Mamula would be an OLB in the 3-4 and all the crap about Mamula being only a workout warrior is bunk because he didn't pan out. He had a great college career. 12 sacks as a junior and 17 sacks as a senior.(finishing with 4 sacks in his bowl game) Mamula had two seasons in the nfl where he had 8 sacks and 8 1/2 sacks, but he just wasn't big enough to play DE at 248 pounds. He should have been at OLB in a 3-4 like Ware.

[Chocolate Lab]

The whole "Cowboy Way" and "right kind of guy" is pretty much bunk anyway. Every coach wants hard working players who don't get into trouble... Every coach. But if they don't have talent, it won't matter. You aren't winning games in the NFL with a bunch of Rudys out there. So at some point you have to compromise in some way... Just like Garrett has done with a guy like Ogletree.

As for Poe, who knows what to believe. But he's very talented and most people seem to believe he's a pretty decent person with a good enough work ethic, and those guys usually work out okay.

[jobberone]

I think this guy would change our defense a lot. You platoon him with Rat at NT. We play a lot fronts. He'd get his share of snaps. Rat needs to be platooned more IMO.

[NeonDeion21]

The whole "Cowboy Way" and "right kind of guy" is pretty much bunk anyway. Every coach wants hard working players who don't get into trouble... Every coach. But if they don't have talent, it won't matter. You aren't winning games in the NFL with a bunch of Rudys out there. So at some point you have to compromise in some way... Just like Garrett has done with a guy like Ogletree.

As for Poe, who knows what to believe. But he's very talented and most people seem to believe he's a pretty decent person with a good enough work ethic, and those guys usually work out okay.

I agree. Every coach wants the hard working guys who don't get into trouble. But some teams are more tolerable to "red flag" guys such as the Bengals and Lions.

Since Garrett became the HC in Dallas, he has seemed to weed out these guys from the team and from their draft board.

[MichaelWinicki]

I think this guy would change our defense a lot. You platoon him with Rat at NT. We play a lot fronts. He'd get his share of snaps. Rat needs to be platooned more IMO.

I'd rather have DeCastro or Barron who would get 800-1000 snaps rather than Poe would get a 300-400.

[jobberone]

I'd rather have DeCastro or Barron who would get 800-1000 snaps rather than Poe would get a 300-400.

I'd rather have both but I certainly want Ratliff more rested. I suspect Poe would get more snaps than that. More like 50%. There's no reason not to put Rat and Poe on the field together at times. We play multiple fronts. They need to spell Spencer and Ware more often as well. We need talented depth in lots of places.

[speedkilz88]

I'd rather have DeCastro or Barron who would get 800-1000 snaps rather than Poe would get a 300-400.
He would get snaps at both NT/DE and get way more than that. If you bothered researching at all he is projected to play more end as a rookie and be eased in at NT.

[Hoofbite]

All I can say is you are wrong. Dude can definitely play the five technique.

He can line up there for sure.

As to whether he can actually play any position, I think that's up for debate.