View Full Version : 3-4 or 4-3 question comes up often in Dallas Meetings
BlindSeer
04-11-2005, 01:58 PM
Cowboys Have Plenty of Options Defensively
By
Date: Apr 11, 2005
Owner Jerry Jones said the Cowboys will carry the offseason-long question of whether they will switch from the 4-3 defense to the 3-4 defense into the NFL draft, set for April 23-24.
The Cowboys are currently involved in intensified draft meetings since early last week, where they are formulating strategy and breaking down players in an attempt to assemble their draft board.
Jones said every time they evaluate a defensive player the 4-3 or 3-4 question comes up in the process.
"We talk about it every day," Jones said. "We talk about the impact a player would have on either."
It's a topic of discussion because the decision to draft certain players would mean the Cowboys were making a final decision on a scheme.
If the Cowboys eventually finalize trade discussions with New Orleans for defensive end Darren Howard -- Jones said the deal is not dead -- it would mean they would stay in the 4-3.
Just like if they took Maryland linebacker Shawne Merriman -- a possibility with the 11th overall pick -- it would likely mean a shift to the 3-4.
Speaking of Trade
Linebacker Dat Nguyen acknowledged being worried when talk surfaced about him being traded to New Orleans for defensive end Darren Howard.
Though Nguyen was flattered that Saints owner and good friend Tom Benson wanted him, he never wanted to leave Dallas. Nguyen's feelings were eased when Cowboys coach Bill Parcells called to reassure him that trading him "was never a consideration."
:blind:
I think the ideal situation would be to get players that would allow a practical flexibility in using both systems. The problem would be adequately instructing players on both, and having enough picks/players to get that many players without jeopardizing having glaring holes at other positions.
Cowboy from New York
04-11-2005, 02:03 PM
Cowboys Have Plenty of Options Defensively
Speaking of Trade
Linebacker Dat Nguyen acknowledged being worried when talk surfaced about him being traded to New Orleans for defensive end Darren Howard.
Though Nguyen was flattered that Saints owner and good friend Tom Benson wanted him, he never wanted to leave Dallas. Nguyen's feelings were eased when Cowboys coach Bill Parcells called to reassure him that trading him "was never a consideration."
:blind:
Tom Benson is a "good friend" of Tom Benson? Am I missing something?
LA=Pancakemaker
04-11-2005, 02:05 PM
We need the players & personal for 3-4, I dont really think we go 100% 3/4
I am looking at 60% - 4/3 40% - 3/4
jksmith269
04-11-2005, 02:06 PM
Tom Benson is a "good friend" of Tom Benson? Am I missing something?
Tom Benson is a good friend of Dat's....
Players that can play both -
4-3 DT that can play 3-4 DE
DE that can play LB
Bigger LB's
Bigger CB's
blindzebra
04-11-2005, 02:22 PM
Playing both means being good at neither, it's a HUGE mistake.
Pick one and build it.
Tobal
04-11-2005, 02:47 PM
Howard is the exception he appears to be good at both.
Playing both means being good at neither, it's a HUGE mistake.
Pick one and build it.
That's what I'm thinking. Has the team given any indication of playing both, or is that just becoming a popular message board theory? Some teams throw in different looks, but I think we have to build for the base D.
Hollywood Henderson
04-11-2005, 03:15 PM
Yes Tobal, Howard could play anywhere on the D line...
However, this is smoke screen stuff...
Parcells had had enough of the 4-3 and rightfully so...We lack a D-coach who has the ability to coach it...
blindzebra
04-11-2005, 03:24 PM
Yes Tobal, Howard could play anywhere on the D line...
However, this is smoke screen stuff...
Parcells had had enough of the 4-3 and rightfully so...We lack a D-coach who has the ability to coach it...
Let's look at this statement logically...I know it's an oximoron.;)
We have used the 4-3 for two years since Parcells has been here. Zimmer was one of the few coaches Parcells kept when he was hired, and he kept him again when we cleared house this offseason.
So how sick of the 4-3 can Parcells be when he's had two years to switch and has done little to make a switch likely in free agency this offseason?
If Zimmer does not have the ability to coach what does that say about Parcells since he hand picked him to run the defense when he got here, talked him out of leaving for the Nebraska job, and retained him yet again when a major chunk of the coaching staff got the axe?
Either Parcells is an idiot or...:D
Yakuza Rich
04-11-2005, 03:26 PM
Playing both means being good at neither, it's a HUGE mistake.
Pick one and build it.
The Patriots played both 2 years ago and won the Super Bowl.
Rich........
WoodysGirl
04-11-2005, 03:33 PM
Let's look at this statement logically...I know it's an oximoron.;)
We have used the 4-3 for two years since Parcells has been here. Zimmer was one of the few coaches Parcells kept when he was hired, and he kept him again when we cleared house this offseason.
So how sick of the 4-3 can Parcells be when he's had two years to switch and has done little to make a switch likely in free agency this offseason?
If Zimmer does not have the ability to coach what does that say about Parcells since he hand picked him to run the defense when he got here, talked him out of leaving for the Nebraska job, and retained him yet again when a major chunk of the coaching staff got the axe?
Either Parcells is an idiot or...:D:hammer:
There comes a time when you must accept the things you cannot change...:banghead:
blindzebra
04-11-2005, 03:33 PM
The Patriots played both 2 years ago and won the Super Bowl.
Rich........
We ARE NOT the Patriots.
How many teams have been successful following the copycat approach? It is a copycat league and the CRAPPY teams chase their tails trying to copy another team's success and it RARELY works.
slick325
04-11-2005, 03:51 PM
At 274 Merriman is capable sizewise of being a 4-3 RDE so why would drafting him automatically mean a switch to the 3-4? I would think that picking Ware would more so mean we will no doubt be a 3-4 team. Merriman hasn't played at 274 so maybe that is the concern and why he is being seen as predominantly a DE/OLB tweener.
Cowboys Have Plenty of Options Defensively
By
Date: Apr 11, 2005
Owner Jerry Jones said the Cowboys will carry the offseason-long question of whether they will switch from the 4-3 defense to the 3-4 defense into the NFL draft, set for April 23-24.
The Cowboys are currently involved in intensified draft meetings since early last week, where they are formulating strategy and breaking down players in an attempt to assemble their draft board.
Jones said every time they evaluate a defensive player the 4-3 or 3-4 question comes up in the process.
"We talk about it every day," Jones said. "We talk about the impact a player would have on either."
It's a topic of discussion because the decision to draft certain players would mean the Cowboys were making a final decision on a scheme.
Am I the only one bothered by this whole thing?
Lost in all the Parcells cheerleading and the spin on the triagenerian FA signings is that there's still no plan. If you're going to switch, then switch and get the appropriate players, if you're not, quit ****ing with it.
(It's unclear if the paragraphs in bold are Jones comments or just specuulation by the author)
ABQCOWBOY
04-11-2005, 05:42 PM
Playing both means being good at neither, it's a HUGE mistake.
Pick one and build it.
This is write.
We ARE NOT the Patriots.
How many teams have been successful following the copycat approach? It is a copycat league and the CRAPPY teams chase their tails trying to copy another team's success and it RARELY works.
Funny BB copied the success of the Parcells/BB Giants 3-4 of late 80's :cool:
This Zimmy passive 4-3 aint happening......
blindzebra
04-11-2005, 07:13 PM
Funny BB copied the success of the Parcells/BB Giants 3-4 of late 80's :cool:
This Zimmy passive 4-3 aint happening......
The DC of that defense copied his own defense, interesting.:rolleyes:
Never agreed to our little bet Nors, as you love to say,
BRING IT!
You won't last a day without your Pat's fix.:D
Just noted the flaw in your Pats copy cat analogy.
Parcells is going to the 3-4 - everyone deep down knows its happening.
blindzebra
04-11-2005, 07:25 PM
:eek: Just noted the flaw in your Pats copy cat analogy.
Parcells is going to the 3-4 - everyone deep down knows its happening.
We really need a chicken smilie.
Yeah, I love how you shot a hole in my analogy by saying Bellichick won copying HIS defense and it only took him 12 years to do it.:rolleyes:
Bet Nors?
Dallas knows what they are doing - they just aren't telling anyone.
jksmith269
04-11-2005, 07:32 PM
Dallas knows what they are doing - they just aren't telling anyone.
I tend to agree with you on this one Nors
blindzebra
04-11-2005, 07:54 PM
Dallas knows what they are doing - they just aren't telling anyone.
Yep, and what they aren't saying is we are staying in the 4-3.
Bet Nors?
BALK, BALK, BABALK.
St. Richard
04-12-2005, 02:06 AM
I haven't seen the earlier threads on moving to the 3-4, but given the current personnel and possible additions, it just doesn't seem logical to me. First, you would basically be throwing Glover under the bus. Ellis could survive in a 3-4, but I think it is wasting one of the best talents on the team to lock him into a base 3-4. Ferguson would probably be fine as a 3-4 nose tackle. But Glover would have no position. He couldn't play the nose and is not suited to be a 3-4 end, so a move to a base 3-4 puts him on the bench or out the door. One good RDE puts the Cowboys' defensive line among the best in the NFL using the 4-3. A move to the 3-4, I believe, puts the entire defense behind much of the league, because the personnel is not well suited to the scheme.
blindzebra
04-12-2005, 02:23 AM
I haven't seen the earlier threads on moving to the 3-4, but given the current personnel and possible additions, it just doesn't seem logical to me. First, you would basically be throwing Glover under the bus. Ellis could survive in a 3-4, but I think it is wasting one of the best talents on the team to lock him into a base 3-4. Ferguson would probably be fine as a 3-4 nose tackle. But Glover would have no position. He couldn't play the nose and is not suited to be a 3-4 end, so a move to a base 3-4 puts him on the bench or out the door. One good RDE puts the Cowboys' defensive line among the best in the NFL using the 4-3. A move to the 3-4, I believe, puts the entire defense behind much of the league, because the personnel is not well suited to the scheme.
Some out there think the 3-4 is this magical scheme that can just be thrown out there and it causes opposing offenses to mess themselves.
With the proper personnel it can get the job done, but it is extremely vulnerable to power running games, as NE's defensive stats over the years will illustrate. Dallas does not have nearly enough size in the front 7 to get away with it.
We currently have 3 DL and 2 LBs that are proven and solid in the 4-3. We have ONE player that has played 3-4 in the NFL on our roster and that is Ferguson.
5 out of 7 with 2 question marks or 1 out of 7 with 6 question marks, seems like really simple math to me.
That logic is ignored by those that want us to be the Dallas Patriots, or is the the NE Cowboys?
DWAREZ
04-12-2005, 04:00 AM
Dallas Patriots or NE Cowboys...hmmm...much like The Colors of a Zebra :)
Hollywood Henderson
04-12-2005, 08:22 AM
Nors is right, they know (JJ & BP) and they are not telling...But most people in the know...Do in fact KNOW...Its 3-4 baby!
Parcells will NOT watch another year of passive & predictable zimmy WUSS "occupy & engage" never pressure a QB CRAP wreck his chances of the playoffs!
Glover does bring up some interesting questions though...
Does he stay or end up draft day trade bait?
I think vs pass first teams he could play NG and do well...
He might be placed at DE some?
Perhaps he doesn't even start but stays fresh & plays on vital pasing downs?
Yes, Ellis has the strength to do well as a 3-4 DE, the question is who mans the other DE spot?
If a Merriman or Ware is drafted they would get one OLB passrushing spot, while I think Thorton has the other...
I think Dat is a major WUSS but he would most likely start at one ILB spot (Unless traded) while James, Flowler/Shanle could also end up starting somewhere...
Yep, its 3-4 get ready for some real D this year fellas!
Nors is right, they know (JJ & BP) and they are not telling...But most people in the know...Do in fact KNOW...Its 3-4 baby!
Parcells will NOT watch another year of passive & predictable zimmy WUSS "occupy & engage" never pressure a QB CRAP wreck his chances of the playoffs!
Glover does bring up some interesting questions though...
Does he stay or end up draft day trade bait?
I think vs pass first teams he could play NG and do well...
He might be placed at DE some?
Perhaps he doesn't even start but stays fresh & plays on vital pasing downs?
Yes, Ellis has the strength to do well as a 3-4 DE, the question is who mans the other DE spot?
If a Merriman or Ware is drafted they would get one OLB passrushing spot, while I think Thorton has the other...
I think Dat is a major WUSS but he would most likely start at one ILB spot (Unless traded) while James, Flowler/Shanle could also end up starting somewhere...
Yep, its 3-4 get ready for some real D this year fellas!
Philly and Washington did bring pressure with the 4-3 "D". So I don't think its the alignment of the "D" as much as it is the philosephy (SP?)...Or maybe the players.
Wasn't the ole "Flex" defense a "occupy & engage" defense, but we still applied pressure to the QB. The difference was/is that coach Tom was inovative in his younger years. He was moving people around and invented the "stunts" of having the DE crash down in the middle and have the tackles go wide around them. Much like the inovative Steelers "zone blitz" out of the 3-4 in the 90's.
Its all about catching the Offense "off guards" on what the "D" will be doing.
When we had Darren playing 2 years ago we had a strategy of using our safteys as interchangable players...That would throw off the QB's as too the coverage and we had the number 1 defense that year. Last year without Darren, well you all know how that turned out.
I personally love the idea of know one knowing what "D" we are gonna deploy. I like what NE did last year switching looks all year. Heck, didn't they have a 2 man front with 4 LB's at times in the Super Bowl.
I hope going into the 15th game of the season this is still a debated topic...Are we a 3-4 team or a 4-3 ?
Keep them guessing Bill !
Hollywood Henderson
04-12-2005, 08:49 AM
Jarv, we weren't the #1 D in any stat that mattered, good teams easily beat us and scored at will when they wanted to...We have been last or near last in turnovers & sacks...Stats that lead to winning games. Ever since the campy the clown/zimmy wuss era started...They can't coach!
Woody when he was young could cover decent, but for the last 3-5 years has been a liability in coverage...
Landry's Flex was used in a run first time...
Your right about coaching though, its not whether its 3-4 or 4-3 but who coaches it...
I love Jim Johnson, great 4-3 INNOVATIVE coach...
Greg Williams easily outcoached and made Minny's offense punchless...
Thats why Parcells needs to take over & coach what he knows (3-4) Because we KNOW for a fact zimmy WUSS can't coach worth a CRAP!
Alexander
04-12-2005, 08:56 AM
Nors is right, they know (JJ & BP) and they are not telling...But most people in the know...Do in fact KNOW...Its 3-4 baby!!
The draft will tell. Finally.
Then maybe this board won't be filled with theoretical talk about a system that is not even in place yet.
I happen to think that if Parcells remains around we will go to it eventually. Even if we stay 4-3 this year, which is the most likely case, we will undooutedly see more 3-4 and we will probably take players who can function in each like Jason Ferguson.
But to state there is no way we go to the 3-4 in time is about as absolute and irritating as saying we will definitiely switch this year.
At this stage I don't see how you can logically state either is a direction that is set in stone and that is how the organization wants it.
Jarv, we weren't the #1 D in any stat that mattered, good teams easily beat us and scored at will when they wanted to...We have been last or near last in turnovers & sacks...Stats that lead to winning games. Ever since the campy the clown/zimmy wuss era started...They can't coach!
Woody when he was young could cover decent, but for the last 3-5 years has been a liability in coverage...
Landry's Flex was used in a run first time...
Your right about coaching though, its not whether its 3-4 or 4-3 but who coaches it...
I love Jim Johnson, great 4-3 INNOVATIVE coach...
Greg Williams easily outcoached and made Minny's offense punchless...
Thats why Parcells needs to take over & coach what he knows (3-4) Because we KNOW for a fact zimmy WUSS can't coach worth a CRAP!
Hey Hollywood, I agree with you except for the 1st statement you made...
"Jarv, we weren't the #1 D in any stat that mattered, good teams easily beat us and scored at will when they wanted to.."
Adam put together stats which showed that we were a very good "D" that year.
Although I think that teams didn't "turn it on" much that year against us because they knew our offense sucked. The number 1 stat I look at for Defense is points allowed...and we were right up there that year at the top of that category.
I know you not a fan of Zimmy, and I'm really not sure where I stand with him this year. But remember that BP is the head coach and if he wanted our "D" to play more agressive he should have taken over the "D" play calling, like he did on the offense. Like the ole saying, who is the fool ? Is it the fool or the people that follow the fool. BP is ultimatly responsible.
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