DMN: Moore: Jerry has already ceded plenty of power to less impulsive son, Stephen

[WoodysGirl]

SportsDayDFW.com
SportsDayDFW.com The Dallas Morning News
Published: 02 May 2012 07:39 PM

Cowboys beat writer David Moore (http://topics.dallasnews.com/topic/David_Moore) answered reader questions during a live chat on Wednesday. Here are some highlights:

David, I am really excited about the future of the franchise with Stephen running the show. I know most of us expected Jerry to run entire organization as long as he possibly could, but it appears that he is letting Stephen do most of the work, requiring only his stamp of approval. Do you agree the transfer of power is happening sooner than expected and are you as pumped as I am about Stephen?

David Moore: I would argue that Stephen has quietly been in charge of the day-to-day decisions for several years now. I would say those responsibilities increased when Jerry had to devote more of his time to getting the stadium built. Now, Jerry can still come in and override any decision. He remains the ultimate spokesman for the franchise. But in terms of how this team operates, Stephen and Jason Garrett (http://topics.dallasnews.com/topic/Jason_Garrett) have the most influence. As for management styles, I don't believe that Stephen is as impulsive as his father. I believe he's more willing to let the process that is in place play out when it comes to major decisions.

Read more: http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/dallas-cowboys/headlines/20120502-moore-jerry-jones-has-already-ceded-plenty-of-power-to-less-impulsive-son-stephen.ece

CLICK HERE TO VIEW THE ENTIRE CHAT (http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/dallas-cowboys/headlines/20120501-chat-replay-david-moore-answers-cowboys-questions.ece).

[punit328]

:pray: :pray: :pray:

[theogt]

David Moore: I would argue that Stephen has quietly been in charge of the day-to-day decisions for several years now. I would say those responsibilities increased when Jerry had to devote more of his time to getting the stadium built. Now, Jerry can still come in and override any decision. He remains the ultimate spokesman for the franchise.I've been saying this for a while now. Since 2009, it's been Stephen's ship, good or bad. It was most readily apparent during the Nnamdi chase.

[cowboy_ron]

To those paying close attention, I think it has been even more evident this entire off season

[Eddie]

When did the Dallas Cowboys become the Jones Dynasty?

[Hostile]

I've been saying this for a while now. Since 2009, it's been Stephen's ship, good or bad. It was most readily apparent during the Nnamdi chase.You've been saying it for a longtime? Holy cow, I've been saying it for what seems like forever.

[Hostile]

When did the Dallas Cowboys become the Jones Dynasty?They aren't, except in the minds of a minimal few.

[Chocolate Lab]

To those paying close attention, I think it has been even more evident this entire off season

I think so, too.

Thank Gawd. I don't see Stephen getting so personal with the players, like Jerry buddying up to Pacman and trying to sweep his idiocy under the rug.

[Hostile]

I think so, too.

Thank Gawd. I don't see Stephen getting so personal with the players, like Jerry buddying up to Pacman and trying to sweep his idiocy under the rug.
You give me hope. Thank you.

[jswalker1981]

But is Stephen a football guy?

:laugh2:

[a_minimalist]

To those paying close attention, I think it has been even more evident this entire off season

I agree. During the press conferences during the draft it became pretty obvious Stephen is pretty much running the ship.

[Risen Star]

But is Stephen a football guy?

:laugh2:

No.

He didn't earn the position. It was simply nepotism. That isn't an opinion.

I would definitely take my chances with Stephen over Jerry, but you know what I would want even more? A real GM with a real background of success in scouting. Someone whose job security here is tied to his job performance.

[Bluestang]

Tom Ciskowski is in the back room raising his hand...

[newlander]

No.

He didn't earn the position. It was simply nepotism. That isn't an opinion.

I would definitely take my chances with Stephen over Jerry, but you know what I would want even more? A real GM with a real background of success in scouting. Someone whose job security here is tied to his job performance.


.......but you can expect the obligatory company line from most of the cheerleaders in this forum

[arglebargle]

No.

He didn't earn the position. It was simply nepotism. That isn't an opinion.

I would definitely take my chances with Stephen over Jerry, but you know what I would want even more? A real GM with a real background of success in scouting. Someone whose job security here is tied to his job performance.

Oh, look, Risen Star hitting his macro key again.

You know, historically, a lot of businesses operated just like this. The best of the sons (or daughters) of the owner continue on with the business.

After over 20 years in the NFL business, you are a football guy. You can argue about the relative merits of each football guy, but that's rarely your schtick.

[Risen Star]

Oh, look, Risen Star hitting his macro key again.

You know, historically, a lot of businesses operated just like this. The best of the sons (or daughters) of the owner continue on with the business.

After over 20 years in the NFL business, you are a football guy. You can argue about the relative merits of each football guy, but that's rarely your schtick.

20 years doesn't mean anything. Because not only did he not get there by merit, he didn't stay there by merit either. He wouldn't have been hired and certainly would have been fired many times over by any NFL team not owned by his father.

So he can be the pretend Director of Personnel for another 30 years and it shouldn't mean anything to anyone as long as his daddy's around. It's much like anything Jerry has his hands on. All show, no substance.

I don't like what I'm saying anymore than you do but I'm not going to live in some fantasy land to make the situation more appealing.

[Risen Star]

.......but you can expect the obligatory company line from most of the cheerleaders in this forum

Of course. They'll accept and defend anything the team serves them.

[Hostile]

But is Stephen a football guy?

:laugh2:
Ask Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells.

Here's (http://www.sloansportsconference.com/?p=434) his resume. From HS all the way through now, he has exemplified that he is indeed a football guy no matter how he got there. Were he not Jerry's son he would be one of the most sought after people in the country for any position.

[Idgit]

.......but you can expect the obligatory company line from most of the cheerleaders in this forum

Of course. They'll accept and defend anything the team serves them.

You two are such free wheeling mavericks. It's really impressive to watch.

[InmanRoshi]

I liked the fact that Stephen got a degree in engineering and that he attended Sloan. At least he seems to have a couple of brain cells to rub together, and he's not just some rich salesman/con-artist or former dumb jock trying to relive his glory years on the college football team.

[CowboyFan74]

:umm:






:holmes:







:yathink:

























:repost:

[a_minimalist]

I don't think it's fair to assume that Stephen didn't do anything to earn the position he has. None of us are behind the scenes to see what goes into a days work for him.

Jerry probably bred Stephen to take over one day. Millions and millions of companies are formed Or taken over by a family and handed down to family members. I think people are being awfully cynical and underestimating the Jones family to think Jerry would just hand over the Cowboys to a son who would be inept at running the organization. If there's one thing Jerry knows it's business and IMO we should be happy about Jerry being a nepotist.

[Hostile]

DoubtfulNot doubtful at all to anyone who is not a Taco Bell Commander.

Stephen sits on the NFL Competition Committee for a reason. They don't hand those positions out to idiots. He's there because he's one of the top minds in football. He is our Cap guy. In case it has escaped you we are never in cap issues since the early days when there was nothing we could do about it.

He is quite respected all around the league. No one but myopic Cowboys fans deny this.

[dstew60105]

Not doubtful at all to anyone who is not a Taco Bell Commander.

Stephen sits on the NFL Competition Committee for a reason. They don't hand those positions out to idiots. He's there because he's one of the top minds in football. He is our Cap guy. In case it has escaped you we are never in cap issues since the early days when there was nothing we could do about it.

He is quite respected all around the league. No one but myopic Cowboys fans deny this.

In fact Bill Parcells thinks very highly of him.

[Hostile]

In fact Bill Parcells thinks very highly of him.
Yes sir.

[Bluestang]

And the vicious cycle continues...

[arglebargle]

In fact Bill Parcells thinks very highly of him.

But this and the Competition committee gig, etc, doesn't fit the knee jerk reaction, so it must be ignored.

[Wood]

I am not buying it. Jerry was as ridiculous as ever last year with comments to press. He continued to talk X's O's with reporters so he is still very close to the situation.

I will know Stephan is in charge when he is given or takes authority to hire a real GM.

[Mash]

gotta love this....

I mean......I think its safe to say.....you do something for 20 yrs....I think you know your job pretty well.

Why is Ozzie Newsome considered a great FO guy? because he played football?

Should we just consider Favre ready made FO guy because he was in the NFL for like 20 yrs?

I dont think Jerry of Stephen Jones are stupid men.....they have learned their trade.....

I laugh when I hear......"well they are not football men".........tell me again....what makes a football guy? Do you have to be born in it? Is there a certain age you need to be in it? Do you need to play it?

The Jones family hate is so funny.....but what do I know.....Maybe being in my late 40's and watching football all these years....I still may not qualify as a decent poster...Do I have to hit a certain post count to qualify? :)

Damn...I should quit my job...I feel so unqualified ....I didnt see a computer till my teens....I didnt get a computer technology degree......Im 15 yrs in my job....I guess I should just go to my boss and admit I dont know what the crap im doing here.......how am I going to break this to my family.....Im a fraud.......:rolleyes:

[Double Trouble]

Stephen said if he were running the show, he'd hire a GM.

/thread

[casmith07]

I think the one exception to this is the Roy Williams trade. I think that was Jerry doing his override.

But anyone that doesn't think that Stephen's been in charge just needs to take a look at Terrell Owens' release.

[casmith07]

Ask Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells.

Here's (http://www.sloansportsconference.com/?p=434) his resume. From HS all the way through now, he has exemplified that he is indeed a football guy no matter how he got there. Were he not Jerry's son he would be one of the most sought after people in the country for any position.

Chemical Engineering!? :eek:

No wonder he's the cap guy -- math comes easy to him.

[Hostile]

Stephen said if he were running the show, he'd hire a GM.

/threadInteresting comment that doesn't have a link. I am sure many will believe it.

Even if he might, and I myself have suggested that one day he might bring Sean Payton on board, it does not change the fact that he trusts that the current scouting department is doing the job that so many of you seem to think isn't getting done.

Give his radio interview for Talking Cowboys a listen and really try and digest what he is saying. Basically he completely destroys the idea that we are a ship without a rudder. I doubt this will mean anything to some posters, but it should.

I thought it was really interesting for instance that BRian Broaddus suggested that Jerry Jones is the best closer in the business. That if you get him on the phone the deal is done. Sort of enlightening if you wander around in the dark. So to speak.

[Randy White]

No.

He didn't earn the position. It was simply nepotism. That isn't an opinion.
.


Holy cow.. Dude, whatever you're eating, stop consuming it and change your diet.

A stupid argument could be made that Jerrah didn't "earned" his position because simply " bought it ". Stephen Jones, on the other hand, has EARNED the position he's at right now. Ask anybody who's coached, scouted, or did front office work for the Cowboys. Jimmah Jenius himself said plenty of times that he could work with Stephen anywhere at anytime. He's one of the most respeced personnel directors in the league, and you don't get that by " nepotism ", you have to earn it.

[Seven]

I think the one exception to this is the Roy Williams trade. I think that was Jerry doing his override.

But anyone that doesn't think that Stephen's been in charge just needs to take a look at Terrell Owens' release.

Spin that. Let's look at the Owens signing. Stephen on board with that?

Anybody, and I mean ANYBODY, would've released Owens. This team was micro-seconds from an all out implosion courtesy of Owens. The dude who brought him on board, despite what the HC AND Stephen wanted.........was covering his ***.......again.

Back to your regularly scheduled topic..........I believe Stephen will run this ship the way it should be. I have faith in the man. I believe he's got a ton of football experience and savvy at every level of the business. Because he's jerrys son it shouldn't allow us to strip that from him.


What I don't believe is he's been doing it since the building of the stadium. Our first year with the new stadium this team tanked. Ran by a docile old man of a head coach who expected his men to be battle ready on their own. Jerry meanwhile AGAIN, couldn't wear both hats and the product on the field proved as such. JMO, of course.

EDIT: And yes, I believe THIS year Stephen and Garrett have stamped this team.

[Randy White]

Ask Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells.

Here's (http://www.sloansportsconference.com/?p=434) his resume. From HS all the way through now, he has exemplified that he is indeed a football guy no matter how he got there. Were he not Jerry's son he would be one of the most sought after people in the country for any position.

Don't start putting out facts out there. You're going to make the Jerry Jumpers uncomfortable.

[Doomsday101]

Holy cow.. Dude, whatever you're eating, stop consuming it and change your diet.

A stupid argument could be made that Jerrah didn't "earned" his position because simply " bought it ". Stephen Jones, on the other hand, has EARNED the position he's at right now. Ask anybody who's coached, scouted, or did front office work for the Cowboys. Jimmah Jenius himself said plenty of times that he could work with Stephen anywhere at anytime. He's one of the most respeced personnel directors in the league, and you don't get that by " nepotism ", you have to earn it.

Your right but only thing that is going to change the perception is winning. Sports is bottom line businesses if you’re not winning people are complaining. Win and the perceptions change.

[Randy White]

I will know Stephan is in charge when he is given or takes authority to hire a real GM.


Such as ?

[Yakuza Rich]

Yes, I think we are owed some sort of link where Stephen has said that if he were in charge he would hire a GM. You can't snidely accuse people of being 'cheerleaders' and claim that you closed the thread with that comment unless there's something to actually back it up. Because if Stephen ever said that, I would imagine a gazillion page thread would have showed up on the forum talking about 'Jerry = evil and needs to die, Stephen = good and holy.'







YR

[Randy White]

Your right but only thing that is going to change the perception is winning. Sports is bottom line businesses if you’re not winning people are complaining. Win and the perceptions change.

You'd think that would be the case because it's logical, but even if the Cowboys win, the Jerry Jumpers would find something to discredit them.

[a_minimalist]

Such as ?

Best question yet. Anyone can throw people on the chopping block. People need to start naming replacements since apparently there are so many people available to take the place of. And that applies to players, coaches, and GM's.

[Yeagermeister]

gotta love this....

I mean......I think its safe to say.....you do something for 20 yrs....I think you know your job pretty well.

Why is Ozzie Newsome considered a great FO guy? because he played football?

Should we just consider Favre ready made FO guy because he was in the NFL for like 20 yrs?

I dont think Jerry of Stephen Jones are stupid men.....they have learned their trade.....

I laugh when I hear......"well they are not football men".........tell me again....what makes a football guy? Do you have to be born in it? Is there a certain age you need to be in it? Do you need to play it?

The Jones family hate is so funny.....but what do I know.....Maybe being in my late 40's and watching football all these years....I still may not qualify as a decent poster...Do I have to hit a certain post count to qualify? :)

Damn...I should quit my job...I feel so unqualified ....I didnt see a computer till my teens....I didnt get a computer technology degree......Im 15 yrs in my job....I guess I should just go to my boss and admit I dont know what the crap im doing here.......how am I going to break this to my family.....Im a fraud.......:rolleyes:

A football guy is anyone not associated with Jerry Jones or the Cowboys.

[Seven]

Best question yet. Anyone can throw people on the chopping block. People need to start naming replacements since apparently there are so many people available to take the place of. And that applies to players, coaches, and GM's.

We could get jerrys replacement at the morgue.......



This fan base should consider themselves lucky it's Stephen. Write that down. Tattoo it on your foreheads backwards and read it in the mirror. He is, and will continue to be, great, with and for this team.

[Hostile]

Yes, I think we are owed some sort of link where Stephen has said that if he were in charge he would hire a GM. You can't snidely accuse people of being 'cheerleaders' and claim that you closed the thread with that comment unless there's something to actually back it up. Because if Stephen ever said that, I would imagine a gazillion page thread would have showed up on the forum talking about 'Jerry = evil and needs to die, Stephen = good and holy.'







YRNot going to hold my breath we ever see where that was said. How about you?

[Mash]

Your right but only thing that is going to change the perception is winning. Sports is bottom line businesses if you’re not winning people are complaining. Win and the perceptions change.

Romo hears you :)

[Doomsday101]

Romo hears you :)

I hope all the players hear that and the coaching and the front office.

[Mash]

You'd think that would be the case because it's logical, but even if the Cowboys win, the Jerry Jumpers would find something to discredit them.

no doubt.....the hatred is too deep......just like the Romo haters...

[Mash]

A football guy is anyone not associated with Jerry Jones or the Cowboys.

no kidding eh? :)

Too funny on what spews out of people's mouth when they have a agenda.

[dfense]

20 years doesn't mean anything. Because not only did he not get there by merit, he didn't stay there by merit either. He wouldn't have been hired and certainly would have been fired many times over by any NFL team not owned by his father.

So he can be the pretend Director of Personnel for another 30 years and it shouldn't mean anything to anyone as long as his daddy's around. It's much like anything Jerry has his hands on. All show, no substance.

I don't like what I'm saying anymore than you do but I'm not going to live in some fantasy land to make the situation more appealing.Actually, Stephen Jones has worked his way up in terms of responsibility. He's handled more than just contract negotiations and the salary cap for quite some time.

Bt since he's the son of the owner he's a puppet? I don't think you're giving him a fair shake.

[Dave_in-NC]

SportsDayDFW.com
SportsDayDFW.com The Dallas Morning News
Published: 02 May 2012 07:39 PM

Cowboys beat writer David Moore (http://topics.dallasnews.com/topic/David_Moore) answered reader questions during a live chat on Wednesday. Here are some highlights:

David, I am really excited about the future of the franchise with Stephen running the show. I know most of us expected Jerry to run entire organization as long as he possibly could, but it appears that he is letting Stephen do most of the work, requiring only his stamp of approval. Do you agree the transfer of power is happening sooner than expected and are you as pumped as I am about Stephen?

David Moore: I would argue that Stephen has quietly been in charge of the day-to-day decisions for several years now. I would say those responsibilities increased when Jerry had to devote more of his time to getting the stadium built. Now, Jerry can still come in and override any decision. He remains the ultimate spokesman for the franchise. But in terms of how this team operates, Stephen and Jason Garrett (http://topics.dallasnews.com/topic/Jason_Garrett) have the most influence. As for management styles, I don't believe that Stephen is as impulsive as his father. I believe he's more willing to let the process that is in place play out when it comes to major decisions.

Read more: http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/dallas-cowboys/headlines/20120502-moore-jerry-jones-has-already-ceded-plenty-of-power-to-less-impulsive-son-stephen.ece

CLICK HERE TO VIEW THE ENTIRE CHAT (http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/dallas-cowboys/headlines/20120501-chat-replay-david-moore-answers-cowboys-questions.ece).

"I don't believe that Stephen is as impulsive as his father."

This is my favorite part.

"Now, Jerry can still come in and override any decision."

My least favorite.

[Randy White]

still waiting for the names of the " football men " who'd come into Valley Ranch and promptly lead the Cowboys to the Superbowl..

:popcorn:

[Yakuza Rich]

Not going to hold my breath we ever see where that was said. How about you?

To me, it's put up or shut up. Come up with something, anything....or recant and apologize.









YR

[junk]

Ask Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells.

Here's (http://www.sloansportsconference.com/?p=434) his resume. From HS all the way through now, he has exemplified that he is indeed a football guy no matter how he got there. Were he not Jerry's son he would be one of the most sought after people in the country for any position.

Could you point out his scouting experience? Or any front office experience prior to getting the job from his Dad?

I have more hope for Stephen than Jerry. Still shouldn't prevent the team from having someone with actual personnel experience in a GM role.

[junk]

Why is Ozzie Newsome considered a great FO guy? because he played football?



No, because he worked his way up the scouting ranks being mentored by some of the best scouting minds in the business.


1991-95: (with Cleveland) First position in the Browns' front office was as a special assignment scout…Two years later (1993), Newsome was promoted to a very comprehensive assignment – assistant to the head coach (Bill Belichick)/offense/pro personnel…In 1994, Newsome was named the Browns' director of pro personnel…Although he continued to help on the field, Newsome provided detailed studies on other NFL players and recommended which players the Browns should try to acquire.


The 20/20 club is also an outstanding program. Who has been raiding the Dallas front office for scouts and front office personnel?


In addition to his knack for evaluating talent on the field, Newsome has also mastered the ability to develop and share insight with the scouts who work under him. The Ravens boast a methodical and disciplined draft process – one that's foundation is laid years in advance. The "process" includes 17 full-time members of the personnel department, but also has feedback from Ravens coaches. Most of Ozzie's staff has been with the team since the franchise started in 1996 or has graduated from the "20/20 Club," which is a group that includes members who began with the Ravens as young assistants and grew into evaluators with more input. (The term "20/20" refers to hiring "20-year-olds for $20,000." "Actually, the guys started when they were a little older than 20 and for more than $20,000, but that's what we call them," Newsome adds.)

[Mash]

No, because he worked his way up the scouting ranks being mentored by some of the best scouting minds in the business.



The 20/20 club is also an outstanding program. Who has been raiding the Dallas front office for scouts and front office personnel?

So Stephen with 20yrs under his belt working for a football organization is well qualified then.

If Ozzie can move up in three years (hired in 91 and then promoted to director of pro personnel in 94)

Then why are we considering Jerry and Stephen that have been in the business for 20 yrs as "not football men" ?

Everyone has to start somewhere. I think both Jerry and Stephen have learned alot over the years.....and I consider them Football men....

JMHO tho :)

[Risen Star]

Not doubtful at all to anyone who is not a Taco Bell Commander.

Stephen sits on the NFL Competition Committee for a reason. They don't hand those positions out to idiots. He's there because he's one of the top minds in football. He is our Cap guy. In case it has escaped you we are never in cap issues since the early days when there was nothing we could do about it.

He is quite respected all around the league. No one but myopic Cowboys fans deny this.

Yes. The Director of Player Personnel for a team that hasn't won in nearly two decades would be coveted around the league in any capacity.

They're all envious of our success.

[Risen Star]

I am not buying it. Jerry was as ridiculous as ever last year with comments to press. He continued to talk X's O's with reporters so he is still very close to the situation.

I will know Stephan is in charge when he is given or takes authority to hire a real GM.

You don't buy it because you have a built in bullcrap detector. There's no doubt Stephen is heavily involved. There's also no doubt the buck stops with Jerry. And it will until he utters his last nonsensical "really" and passes on to the next life.

[Primetime42]

Tom Ciskowski is in the back room raising his hand...
And being ignored by the stiffs in this thread...

[Risen Star]

And being ignored by the stiffs in this thread...

Tom Ciskowski is the assistant director of player personnel. All teams have those support staff guys in place. It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

The fact that you have to go down to Tom on the totem pole to get your first legit personnel guy in the organization is a real problem.

[Hostile]

Being on the competition committee doesn't equal knowing how to evaluate talent. This should be obvious to anyone who is not a Taco Bell Commander.I didn't say it was equal. You cannot under any amount of eye strain show me where Stephen Jones is disrespected as a football man in the NFL by those in the NFL circles.

Can you Mr. Eyebrow?

[Hostile]

Tom Ciskowski is the assistant director of player personnel. All teams have those support staff guys in place. It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

The fact that you have to go down to Tom on the totem pole to get your first legit personnel guy in the organization is a real problem.Doesn't seem to be a problem at all. We're drafting well, under the cap, signing free agents.

Strange definition of a problem.

[junk]

So Stephen with 20yrs under his belt working for a football organization is well qualified then.

If Ozzie can move up in three years (hired in 91 and then promoted to director of pro personnel in 94)

Then why are we considering Jerry and Stephen that have been in the business for 20 yrs as "not football men" ?

Everyone has to start somewhere. I think both Jerry and Stephen have learned alot over the years.....and I consider them Football men....

JMHO tho :)

Fair question. In my opinion, you can learn a lot, even in three years, when you are actually scouting and learning under someone with extensive personnel experience (Belichick)

How much time do you think Stephen has spent evaluating tape, reporting to someone and getting feedback?

I think he got a some pretty good tutelage under Parcells, but other than that, he's been learning from the Lacewells and Ciskowskis of the world. Nothing special.

[junk]

Doesn't seem to be a problem at all. We're drafting well, under the cap, signing free agents.

Strange definition of a problem.

1 playoff win in 15 years. Something's broken.

[Risen Star]

Doesn't seem to be a problem at all. We're drafting well, under the cap, signing free agents.

Strange definition of a problem.

Oh yeah, we've been littered with talent and success under the current front office.

I can see teams lining up to add a guy like Stephen Jones to head their personnel department. With all the no success he's had at it over the years.

[Risen Star]

1 playoff win in 15 years. Something's broken.

We're under the cap. As opposed to the teams breaking NFL rules and operating over the cap.

[Bluestang]

Fair question. In my opinion, you can learn a lot, even in three years, when you are actually scouting and learning under someone with extensive personnel experience (Belichick)

How much time do you think Stephen has spent evaluating tape, reporting to someone and getting feedback?

I think he got a some pretty good tutelage under Parcells, but other than that, he's been learning from the Lacewells and Ciskowskis of the world. Nothing special.


What a slap in the face to Tom Ciskowski, the same guy that evaluated talent for Jimmy Johnson and the same guy that Jimmy recommended to the Colts as a candidate for the GM position.

[CowboyMike]

I imagine that when Jerry bows out, Stephen will hold a title like, and "Owner and President of Football Operations." Then he'll hire a GM. However I believe Stephen will still be the decision maker and heavily involved in the process. Kind of like what Parcells was in Miami or what Holmgren is doing now in Cleveland.

[Hostile]

Oh yeah, we've been littered with talent and success under the current front office.

I can see teams lining up to add a guy like Stephen Jones to head their personnel department. With all the no success he's had at it over the years.I do see some recent success. I also see a team on the rise due to, wait for it, talent evaluation. What will you have to do to deny this if this thing turns around like you and I both know it is about to? Oh yeah, you'll have to strip your gears reversing field to try and save face. Well, good luck with that.

[Wood]

Yes, I think we are owed some sort of link where Stephen has said that if he were in charge he would hire a GM. You can't snidely accuse people of being 'cheerleaders' and claim that you closed the thread with that comment unless there's something to actually back it up. Because if Stephen ever said that, I would imagine a gazillion page thread would have showed up on the forum talking about 'Jerry = evil and needs to die, Stephen = good and holy.'
YR

If stephen Jones made that comment of hiring GM if he were in total charge - why is it such difficult concept to accept? Is it because we have been beaten over the head for so many years that you really "don't need one"? This concept is only foreign to Cowboy fans - everyone other fan in football would think it is a normal logical statement by Stephan.

[newlander]

I do see some recent success. I also see a team on the rise due to, wait for it, talent evaluation. What will you have to do to deny this if this thing turns around like you and I both know it is about to? Oh yeah, you'll have to strip your gears reversing field to try and save face. Well, good luck with that.



"KNOWS" this team is about to turn anything around......man, you are such an apologist. Do you work in the organization? Does silverbear have a cubicle next to you? You guys are DELUSIONAL. I've been a fan of this team since '77 but a spade is spade. They are NOT as good as Green Bay or the Gspots for sure and younger teams like Atlanta and Detroit are passing them by. Philly had NO problem beating them twice last year as well. And getting Claiborne, a bunch of JAG free agents on the Oline and Crawford is "turning it around"? They will be COMPETITIVE like they usually are......8, 9, maybe 10 wins. Playoffs? Perhaps but a first round exit to a home team listed above with strong interior line play will be imminent. That's the truth of the matter and it won't change until they build the team from the inside/out. Just like the real contenders do.......and yeah, Gosselin and Risen Star are correct and you and 'silverbear' and all the sunshine blowers are dead WRONG. It's about time someone told you that......you know alot about football 'Hos' but your blind loyalty to the Cowboys doesn't allow you to see the big picture clearly: kind of like the Jones'.

[DOUBLE WING]

All I know is in that Talking Cowboys interview, Stephen came off sounding EXACTLY like his old man. Bragging about some JAG player they like, pumping up how they drafted guys who could contribute on special teams, boasting about how some other team was jealous we "took their guy". He just spewed stupid statement after stupid statement that sounded like it could have easily come out of Jerry's mouth.

[Hostile]

"KNOWS" this team is about to turn anything around......man, you are such an apologist. Do you work in the organization? Does silverbear have a cubicle next to you? You guys are DELUSIONAL. I've been a fan of this team since '77 but a spade is spade. They are NOT as good as Green Bay or the Gspots for sure and younger teams like Atlanta and Detroit are passing them by. Philly had NO problem beating them twice last year as well. And getting Claiborne, a bunch of JAG free agents on the Oline and Crawford is "turning it around"? They will be COMPETITIVE like they usually are......8, 9, maybe 10 wins. Playoffs? Perhaps but a first round exit to a home team listed above with strong interior line play will be imminent. That's the truth of the matter and it won't change until they build the team from the inside/out. Just like the real contenders do.......and yeah, Gosselin and Risen Star are correct and you and 'silverbear' and all the sunshine blowers are dead WRONG. It's about time someone told you that......you know alot about football 'Hos' but your blind loyalty to the Cowboys doesn't allow you to see the big picture clearly: kind of like the Jones'.No, but I'd consider it an honor. I suppose you'd consider it an insult. I do know they are about to turn it around. I am sorry you can't see it.

[Vanilla2]

Sour grapes.

This forum is full of em.

Stephen and Jerry are both football guys. It doesn't matter how they got their positions but if they were as inept as you think the Cowboys would be Cleveland south.

You'll say well they haven't won in a couple decades you're right but it's not as easy as you seem to believe it is. It just sounds like you became a Cowboy fan cuz they won a super bowl. I know your "tired" of losing but the nfl has ebbs and flows and the Cowboys are headed in the right direction.

And whoever called the Falcons young needs to take a look at their roster and they have not passed the Cowboys up they benefit greatly from facing the Yucs and Panties twice a year.

My short attention span has kicked in and I hope this kind of makes sense.

But some of y'all need to take a break.

[Randy White]

"KNOWS" this team is about to turn anything around......man, you are such an apologist. Do you work in the organization? Does silverbear have a cubicle next to you? You guys are DELUSIONAL. I've been a fan of this team since '77 but a spade is spade. They are NOT as good as Green Bay or the Gspots for sure and younger teams like Atlanta and Detroit are passing them by. Philly had NO problem beating them twice last year as well. And getting Claiborne, a bunch of JAG free agents on the Oline and Crawford is "turning it around"? They will be COMPETITIVE like they usually are......8, 9, maybe 10 wins. Playoffs? Perhaps but a first round exit to a home team listed above with strong interior line play will be imminent. That's the truth of the matter and it won't change until they build the team from the inside/out. Just like the real contenders do.......and yeah, Gosselin and Risen Star are correct and you and 'silverbear' and all the sunshine blowers are dead WRONG. It's about time someone told you that......you know alot about football 'Hos' but your blind loyalty to the Cowboys doesn't allow you to see the big picture clearly: kind of like the Jones'.


Typical Jerry Jumper, can't get the facts straight and always doing the same things they criticize others for doing..

1) Midgets are the Superbowl Champs and all the credit in the world goes to them. The other truth is that they were one play: a Miles Austin's misjudged pass, from being eliminated altogether from the playoffs. ONE play.

2) Atlanta was an OLDER team than the Cowboys in 2011, and based on the roster changes due to draft and free agency that gap will grow SIGNIFICANTLY wider in 2012.

3) Congratulations to the Beagirls for beating the Cowboys twice last year. The Cowboys beat them THREE times 2 years ago, and in both cases, BOTH teams got the same result: nada. At best, the Beagirls might have been celebrating those 2 victories sitting next to the Cowboys watching the playoffs on tv, with the only difference being that THEY, unlike the Cowboys, were " supposed to be " in the Superbowl... Hail to the " Dreamgirls ".. errr, I mean " dream team ".. Sorry, got confused with the movie for a minute there, although I could have sworn I saw Jennifer Hudson playing CB for Filthadelphia last year.

4) Very hypocritical of you to call Hostile an " apologist " and " dilusional " because he BELIEVES the Cowboys are turning it around, yet YOU just know that: " first round exit to a home team listed above with strong interior line play will be imminent " So it must be fair, then, to call you a " hater " and " clueless ".

5) As he's PROVEN plenty of times before, the only thing Goose has been right about before are which players particular teams are interested in. Other than that, Rick Gossage wouldn't know the end of a football even if he sat on one.

[StevenOtero]

Can't we just relax and enjoy football? No, we have to hyper-analyze everything from the front office to the freaking pants color.

Sheesh.

[theogt]

All I know is in that Talking Cowboys interview, Stephen came off sounding EXACTLY like his old man. Bragging about some JAG player they like, pumping up how they drafted guys who could contribute on special teams, boasting about how some other team was jealous we "took their guy". He just spewed stupid statement after stupid statement that sounded like it could have easily come out of Jerry's mouth.He was probably talking about a guy you'd never heard of because you're not that into football.

[Mash]

Typical Jerry Jumper, can't get the facts straight and always doing the same things they criticize others for doing..

1) Midgets are the Superbowl Champs and all the credit in the world goes to them. The other truth is that they were one play: a Miles Austin's misjudged pass, from being eliminated altogether from the playoffs. ONE play.

2) Atlanta was an OLDER team than the Cowboys in 2011, and based on the roster changes due to draft and free agency that gap will grow SIGNIFICANTLY wider in 2012.

3) Congratulations to the Beagirls for beating the Cowboys twice last year. The Cowboys beat them THREE times 2 years ago, and in both cases, BOTH teams got the same result: nada. At best, the Beagirls might have been celebrating those 2 victories sitting next to the Cowboys watching the playoffs on tv, with the only difference being that THEY, unlike the Cowboys, were " supposed to be " in the Superbowl... Hail to the " Dreamgirls ".. errr, I mean " dream team ".. Sorry, got confused with the movie for a minute there, although I could have sworn I saw Jennifer Hudson playing CB for Filthadelphia last year.

4) Very hypocritical of you to call Hostile an " apologist " and " dilusional " because he BELIEVES the Cowboys are turning it around, yet YOU just know that: So it must be fair, then, to call you a " hater " and " clueless ".

5) As he's PROVEN plenty of times before, the only thing Goose has been right about before are which players particular teams are interested in. Other than that, Rick Gossage wouldn't know the end of a football even if he sat on one.

:toast2: :toast2:

[junk]

What a slap in the face to Tom Ciskowski, the same guy that evaluated talent for Jimmy Johnson and the same guy that Jimmy recommended to the Colts as a candidate for the GM position.

Jerry also recommends Butch Davis for any job opening that comes up.

Why is Ciskowski above reproach in Dallas?

You do realize he was a scout during some of the Cowboys most horrible years, right?

I posted this before and no one really said much about it.

Ciskowski was southeast area scout 1998-2000 - who did Dallas draft from the southeast from 1998 to 2000?

Greg Ellis, Michael Myers, Darren Hambrick, Izell Reese, Antonio Fleming, Ebenezer Ekuban, Peppi Zellner, Dwayne Goodrich and Orantes Grant

[Bluestang]

Jerry also recommends Butch Davis for any job opening that comes up.

I said Jimmy Johnson not Jerry, IMO there is a difference on who recommened who and Jimmy did it on his own without any type of approval from anyone.

Why is Ciskowski above reproach in Dallas?

He's not and I never said as much. However, the scouting between the Wade years and the Garrett years has been much different in terms of the type of players they look at at, would you agree?

You do realize he was a scout during some of the Cowboys most horrible years, right?

I posted this before and no one really said much about it.

Ciskowski was southeast area scout 1998-2000 - who did Dallas draft from the southeast from 1998 to 2000?

Greg Ellis, Michael Myers, Darren Hambrick, Izell Reese, Antonio Fleming, Ebenezer Ekuban, Peppi Zellner, Dwayne Goodrich and Orantes Grant

Without having the full list of prospects and what his grades where you are making a big assumption about his abilities. Go google an article called "Collected Wisdom: Tom Ciskowski" and in it you'll find that he learned alot of things from Jimmy Johnson, Larry Lacewell, and Bill Parcells.

[Chocolate Lab]

He's not and I never said as much. However, the scouting between the Wade years and the Garrett years has been much different in terms of the type of players they look at at, would you agree?What's so different about it?

[Bluestang]

What's so different about it?


RKGs.

[junk]

I said Jimmy Johnson not Jerry, IMO there is a difference on who recommened who and Jimmy did it on his own without any type of approval from anyone.
Typo. I meant Jimmy. He was talking about Butch for the Arkansas job the other day.


He's not and I never said as much. However, the scouting between the Wade years and the Garrett years has been much different in terms of the type of players they look at at, would you agree?

The captain thing was big this year. What else do you see as being different?


Without having the full list of prospects and what his grades where you are making a big assumption about his abilities. Go google an article called "Collected Wisdom: Tom Ciskowski" and in it you'll find that he learned alot of things from Jimmy Johnson, Larry Lacewell, and Bill Parcells.

I'd hope he'd learn a lot from Jimmy and Parcells. I hope he shut his ears when Lacewell was around (although in the article he calls Lacewell the best football man he's been around.....that unnerves me more than his track record as a SE area scout)

[Bluestang]

The captain thing was big this year. What else do you see as being different?

In one phrase...RKGs with college production.


I'd hope he'd learn a lot from Jimmy and Parcells. I hope he shut his ears when Lacewell was around (although in the article he calls Lacewell the best football man he's been around.....that unnerves me more than his track record as a SE area scout)

Sometimes you learn from the mistakes of others. :)

[junk]

In one phrase...RKGs with college production.




Sometimes you learn from the mistakes of others. :)

Not familiar with the term RKG.....what does that mean?

[Bluestang]

Not familiar with the term RKG.....what does that mean?


Seriously?

[Chocolate Lab]

Not familiar with the term RKG.....what does that mean?

Red Kool-aid Guy. ;)

[junk]

Seriously?

That is why I asked

[junk]

Red Kool-aid Guy. ;)

Really?

[theogt]

Radical knitting groupie.

[Bluestang]

LOL at the responses.

Junk it means Right-Kind-of-Guy - I'm sure you've heard Garrett mention that a few times.

[DavyBaby]

Jimmy Johnson also spoke highly of him in his book.

In fact Bill Parcells thinks very highly of him.

[Bluestang]

Jimmy Johnson also spoke highly of him in his book.


Tom Ciskowski has followed Jimmy Johnson around and he credits him to getting his career started in scouting. Ciskowski has said multiple time in different interviews that he follows Jimmy's philosophy in regards to player/talent evaluation.

[Hostile]

I disagreed with your original assertion that "Were he not Jerry's son he would be one of the most sought after people in the country for any position."

Whether or not he's disrespected, which I never stated he was, is quite different from whether he'd be one of the most sought after for any position. Some team may want him to oversee their cap, but can't see any who would have him on their top lists to be a GM.Who said GM? You guys are so freaking hung up on the title of GM that you miss the point. Is GM somehow a magic position to you? Quick question, use your head. Is Kevin Colbert in Pittsburgh know more about the cap than Stephen Jones? Be honest.

Follow up question, is cap room a premium in the NFL?

If you can't recognize these things and realize your initial "doubtful" comment had as much poop in it as a sewer line then quite frankly you're using the blinders you wear wrong and have them over your eyes instead of giving you tunnel vision.

:confused:Sorry for the confusion. It should have been Royal Eyebrow. No more songs.

[Risen Star]

Who said GM? You guys are so freaking hung up on the title of GM that you miss the point. Is GM somehow a magic position to you? Quick question, use your head. Is Kevin Colbert in Pittsburgh know more about the cap than Stephen Jones? Be honest.

Follow up question, is cap room a premium in the NFL?

If you can't recognize these things and realize your initial "doubtful" comment had as much poop in it as a sewer line then quite frankly you're using the blinders you wear wrong and have them over your eyes instead of giving you tunnel vision.

Sorry for the confusion. It should have been Royal Eyebrow. No more songs.

I believe you said Stephen would be coveted in any capacity. That would include GM. A position he's completely unqualified for and no team in their right mind would ever consider him a worthy candidate.

As a cap man, I don't know. He's seems run of the mill at best to me. The Cowboys' pay out tons of dead money, they've had quiet offseasons with no cap space to compete to sign top free agents and we're currently in a dispute with the league for some cap violations that has further depleted our cap space.

This might be okay if the team was winning. Not with the results this team has put up the last 15 years.

Stephen's a guy the fan base tells you is great with no real viable reason for why he's great. My theory is they can no longer pretend Jerry is a good GM. The next best thing is to prop up Stephen as the savior in waiting. Even suggest he's secretely running the team right now. Jerry's a mere figure head. An ego driven owner who covets the power of the role of GM so much that he refuses to ever let it go, yet never exercises that power within his own organization.

It's a real fairy tale.

[junk]

LOL at the responses.

Junk it means Right-Kind-of-Guy - I'm sure you've heard Garrett mention that a few times.

I have, but didn't make the connection to RKG. Thanks.

[junk]

Who said GM? You guys are so freaking hung up on the title of GM that you miss the point. Is GM somehow a magic position to you? Quick question, use your head. Is Kevin Colbert in Pittsburgh know more about the cap than Stephen Jones? Be honest.

Follow up question, is cap room a premium in the NFL?


Let's be honest. The cap is just math. I'd hope an engineering graduate could handle it.

Teams struggled a bit once the cap was first implemented, but really, it isn't that big of a deal anymore. Look at all the lousy deals Dallas has made and it doesn't really impact their ability to go after free agents if they want.

I actually care little about the cap. The more important issue is player personnel.

Besides....Dallas must not be that good at cap management. They broke the rules and lost cap room. ;)

[Hostile]

I believe you said Stephen would be coveted in any capacity. That would include GM. A position he's completely unqualified for and no team in their right mind would ever consider him a worthy candidate.

As a cap man, I don't know. He's seems run of the mill at best to me. The Cowboys' pay out tons of dead money, they've had quiet offseasons with no cap space to compete to sign top free agents and we're currently in a dispute with the league for some cap violations that has further depleted our cap space.

This might be okay if the team was winning. Not with the results this team has put up the last 15 years.

Stephen's a guy the fan base tells you is great with no real viable reason for why he's great. My theory is they can no longer pretend Jerry is a good GM. The next best thing is to prop up Stephen as the savior in waiting. Even suggest he's secretely running the team right now. Jerry's a mere figure head. An ego driven owner who covets the power of the role of GM so much that he refuses to ever let it go, yet never exercises that power within his own organization.

It's a real fairy tale.Okay, so what I gather then is that you just admitted you are hung up on the GM position. If "any capacity" to you means I was talking only about GM then you are hung up.

"Any capacity" to me means what I have been trying to educate you guys on for months now. Personnel evaluation, contracts, salary cap, marketing.

To me these are all capacities within an NFL team for which someone can be coveted. To have anyone say "doubtful" he would be considered is straight crap. I honestly don't know how you guys can stand the smell.

Let me put it this way. No one in any form of management on any team in the NFL would agree with you or your cohorts that Stephen Jones is not a football guy. Not one person. I further pushed this by noting that Rooney and Mara, heirs of founding owners of their teams who have been in place for generations are considered football guys. Art Rooney II never even played football. John Mara didn't either. In fact John never held a football capacity with the Giants until right before his father's death.

The excuse came back they have rings, and that makes them football guys. But Stephen has rings too, and more rings than both Rooney II and Mara from their times of actual involvement with their teams and championship seasons.

So naturally the goalposts moved again to discount Stephen's rings but not theirs.

It has to be one of the most two faced, ill conceived stances in the history of this forum. Contrary to your stated criteria above GM is not the only position on an NFL management team and I would not be the slightest bit shocked if a team wouldn't make him a GM, nor should you be.

Education of his reputation would definitely help you actually understand in this case.

[junk]

Let me put it this way. No one in any form of management on any team in the NFL would agree with you or your cohorts that Stephen Jones is not a football guy. Not one person. I further pushed this by noting that Rooney and Mara, heirs of founding owners of their teams who have been in place for generations are considered football guys. Art Rooney II never even played football. John Mara didn't either. In fact John never held a football capacity with the Giants until right before his father's death.

The excuse came back they have rings, and that makes them football guys. But Stephen has rings too, and more rings than both Rooney II and Mara from their times of actual involvement with their teams and championship seasons.

It has to be one of the most two faced, ill conceived stances in the history of this forum. Contrary to your stated criteria above GM is not the only position on an NFL management team and I would not be the slightest bit shocked if a team wouldn't make him a GM, nor should you be.

Education of his reputation would definitely help you actually understand in this case.

Again, I don't think you really understand the role of a GM when it comes to player personnel.

Rooney, Mara, etc. are not in the personnel business. They have Jerry Reese and Kevin Colbert. None of them have the title "Director of Player Personnel". They aren't trying to assemble the talent on the team. They've hired qualified people to do so.

And guess what? They've won playoff games and Super Bowls recently.

In Pittsburgh, their titles are all under the "Administration" category. In NY, they are under the category "Ownership"

[Hostile]

I wish I had graphics skills. I'd make an image of the letters GM that are hung up on something. Like a noose. Our fans actually believe it is a cookie cutter title that only has certain roles that they see on other teams. Except for the teams they can't see it on then they are exceptions and we don't acknowledge exceptions.

Yeah, hung up on a noose is fitting because it is choking off oxygen to the brain.

[Dodger12]

In fact John never held a football capacity with the Giants until right before his father's death.

The excuse came back they have rings, and that makes them football guys. But Stephen has rings too, and more rings than both Rooney II and Mara from their times of actual involvement with their teams and championship seasons.

So naturally the goalposts moved again to discount Stephen's rings but not theirs.

It has to be one of the most two faced, ill conceived stances in the history of this forum. Contrary to your stated criteria above GM is not the only position on an NFL management team and I would not be the slightest bit shocked if a team wouldn't make him a GM, nor should you be.

Education of his reputation would definitely help you actually understand in this case.

I don't know how accurate this is but Wiki states that John Mara joined the Giants in 1991, serving as the Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer until his father's death in 2005, when he assumed the team's presidency.

He also has a GM in Jerry Reese who started with he Giants as a scout and worked his way to where he is.

[Hostile]

I don't know how accurate this is but Wiki states that John Mara joined the Giants in 1991, serving as the Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer until his father's death in 2005, when he assumed the team's presidency.

He also has a GM in Jerry Reese who started with he Giants as a scout and worked his way to where he is.I'm going to try saying this in a different way to see if you guys will finally let it sink in.

Larry Lacewell
Jeff Ireland
Tom Ciskowski

Each of those guys represent our Jerry Reese since Jerry bought the team.

For the Giants the chief talent evaluator is Jerry Reese, who holds the title of GM. For the Dallas Cowboys it is currently Tom Ciskowski who holds the title of Assistant Director of Player Personnel. Oddly enough, this is the exact same title Scott Pioli held while with the Patriots. Word for word. His title now with Kansas City is GM, yet his duties are the exact same.

By the way, isn't it interesting how in New England Robert Kraft's son Jonathan has a high ranking position with the team? Nepotism in New England? Say it ain't so.

[cowboy_ron]

I'm going to try saying this in a different way to see if you guys will finally let it sink in.

Larry Lacewell
Jeff Ireland
Tom Ciskowski

Each of those guys represent our Jerry Reese since Jerry bought the team.

For the Giants the chief talent evaluator is Jerry Reese, who holds the title of GM. For the Dallas Cowboys it is currently Tom Ciskowski who holds the title of Assistant Director of Player Personnel. Oddly enough, this is the exact same title Scott Pioli held while with the Patriots. Word for word. His title now with Kansas City is GM, yet his duties are the exact same.

By the way, isn't it interesting how in New England Robert Kraft's son Jonathan has a high ranking position with the team? Nepotism in New England? Say it ain't so.
I'm giving 2 to 1 they still won't get it

[Hostile]

I'm giving 2 to 1 they still won't get itI have no doubt of that. They run in quicksand with their logic.

[junk]

I'm going to try saying this in a different way to see if you guys will finally let it sink in.

Larry Lacewell
Jeff Ireland
Tom Ciskowski

Each of those guys represent our Jerry Reese since Jerry bought the team.

Yep, and in each case, they are third in the pecking order behind Jerry and Stephen.


For the Giants the chief talent evaluator is Jerry Reese, who holds the title of GM. For the Dallas Cowboys it is currently Tom Ciskowski who holds the title of Assistant Director of Player Personnel. Oddly enough, this is the exact same title Scott Pioli held while with the Patriots. Word for word. His title now with Kansas City is GM, yet his duties are the exact same.

Yes, but they are given the task of assembling the talent on the roster and get to make the final decisions on the roster. They are qualified to do so and if they don't achieve results, they get fired.

Dallas doesn't have that structure.


By the way, isn't it interesting how in New England Robert Kraft's son Jonathan has a high ranking position with the team? Nepotism in New England? Say it ain't so.
So, is Jonathan running the personnel department up there?

http://www.patriots.com/team/staff/jonathan-kraft/82548dfc-9f29-47f8-a508-6ccf7844a6ef

I encourage you to read his bio and let me know how he is helping out in the daily acquistion of personnel for the team.

I'd be fine with Stephen in the same role as Jonathan. Jerry too. I think they'd both be great at it.

[junk]

I'm giving 2 to 1 they still won't get it

Yes, we're the idiots for thinking that a team that has won 1 playoff game in 15 years might have issues with the way they are doing things.

[Hostile]

I'm giving 2 to 1 they still won't get itOne down. How many to go?

[junk]

I have no doubt of that. They run in quicksand with their logic.

I guess I don't see how you guys continue to think that way.

Seems very simple to me. Look at the consistently successful teams in the NFL. They have a clear guy in charge of player personnel. A guy whose job it is to assemble the roster. I can't think of a single instance where that guy didn't work his way up through the scouting ranks.

Dallas doesn't have that. They have a GM who periodically injects himself and has publicly stated, on many occasions, that he has final say. Despite what people want to make up around here, that should be more than obvious looking at comments from Stephen in 2008 and 2012. Jerry wanted to trade up in both cases (for Bennett in 2008 and into 2 in 2012 for 2013 picks) and had to be talked out of it. If he doesn't have final say, why would he need to be talked out of it? And this GM has no experience in player personnel having never worked as a scout or under an established scout prior to becoming GM.

Next in line is the Director of Player Personnel. Also a guy with no personnel experience. He has some pull. It appears he can talk his final decision maker out of boneheaded decisions sometimes. Not all the time though.

Finally, we get down to the first guy in the front office with any player personnel experience. A guy who has been around through some pretty awful years. A guy, who as an area scout, had these luminaries drafted under his watch: Greg Ellis, Michael Myers, Darren Hambrick, Izell Reese, Antonio Fleming, Ebenezer Ekuban, Peppi Zellner, Dwayne Goodrich and Orantes Grant

Then there is Garrett. The coaching neophyte, who hasn't quite mastered basic clock management, who is going to ride in on a white horse and save the day. A guy who also has zero scouting experience. A guy, who by some people's theories, has final say in this structure. Hey, I like Garrett and I really hope he is the magic bullet that fixes things in Dallas. It seems like a lot to ask of a guy who has only been a coach for 7 years.

I don't see why it is such a reach to look at teams that are successful and try to emulate their practices. Or you can think that is silly and just hope that sticking with something that has proven not to work will suddenly start working.

[cowboy_ron]

One down. How many to go?
A few more come to mind:laugh1:

[junk]

A few more come to mind:laugh1:

:laugh1:

1 playoff win in 15 years. Hilarious.

[Hostile]

A few more come to mind:laugh1:Maybe if we tell them 2 dozen more times that Tom Ciskowski is the clear guy in charge of player personnel it will sink in?

Naw...

[cowboy_ron]

:laugh1:

1 playoff win in 15 years. Hilarious.
Being in a competition based career myself I guess I look at it a little different. I feel the frustration of the Boys as well, but even the haters should be able to see the turn the team has made this year.

I agree when Jerry was trying so hard to win to spite his critics, he made some bad choices. At the same time, one would have to be blind not to be able to see the change in philosophy that is so very evident in this off season in both the draft as well as FA.

The torch has quietly been passed...there will not be any formal announcement, you just have to observe to know this. This is a turning point with this team that we'll all be able to enjoy...relax, watch and see.

[cowboy_ron]

Maybe if we tell them 2 dozen more times that Tom Ciskowski is the clear guy in charge of player personnel it will sink in?

Naw...
:) nope, hos, that's wishful thinking

[Bluestang]

So now Garrett has zero scouting experience?

Do yourself a favor and google Jim Garrett.



I get you are trying to make your argument but don't just make random stuff up.

[Dodger12]

I'm giving 2 to 1 they still won't get it

I have no doubt of that. They run in quicksand with their logic.

Hos was comparing Steven Jones to John Mara and claimed he didn't have any involvement until his father's death. From all indications, that was inaccurate. The only comparison is that they both got their jobs through nepotism. No problem with that, I'd do the same thing if it was me by passing off the family business to my children.

The difference is that Mara hired Reese who took over for Ernie Accorsi, while we have a GM by committee approach, according to Hostile.

There's a difference between the two organizations and it's not just in "titles" but I'm also giving 2 to 1 odds that neither of you will get it either.

[Hostile]

Hos was comparing Steven Jones to John Mara and claimed he didn't have any involvement until his father's death. From all indications, that was inaccurate. The only comparison is that they both got their jobs through nepotism. No problem with that, I'd do the same thing if it was me by passing off the family business to my children.

The difference is that Mara hired Reese who took over for Ernie Accorsi, while we have a GM by committee approach, according to Hostile.

There's a difference between the two organizations and it's not just in "titles" but I'm also giving 2 to 1 odds that neither of you will get it either.Please break down for me in detail how Jerry Reese evaluates players differently than Tom Ciskowski does. Show me in finite details where there is this Grand Canyon difference.

I'll wait and go shower while you scramble for a scrap of evidence.

[cowboy_ron]

Jeopardy theme song playing

[Hostile]

I head to Church in an hour and a half and will be gone for at least 5 hours. Maybe that will be enough time to explain this canyon of difference?

[Risen Star]

I'm going to try saying this in a different way to see if you guys will finally let it sink in.

Larry Lacewell
Jeff Ireland
Tom Ciskowski

Each of those guys represent our Jerry Reese since Jerry bought the team.

For the Giants the chief talent evaluator is Jerry Reese, who holds the title of GM. For the Dallas Cowboys it is currently Tom Ciskowski who holds the title of Assistant Director of Player Personnel. Oddly enough, this is the exact same title Scott Pioli held while with the Patriots. Word for word. His title now with Kansas City is GM, yet his duties are the exact same.

By the way, isn't it interesting how in New England Robert Kraft's son Jonathan has a high ranking position with the team? Nepotism in New England? Say it ain't so.

And I'll say it real slow-like so maybe it'll sink in. Reese runs the war room in New York. Jerry runs it in Dallas.

The Giants have their own Stephen Jones. His name is Kevin Abrams. They have their own Tom Ciskowskis. Their names are Dave Gettleman and Marc Ross. They all report back to their GM who leads the process. That GM is qualified with a successful background in scouting.

In Dallas, Tom Ciskowski hands his information to two guys who don't have one day of prior scouting experience. They have no successes in that area on their resume. They could never get into the room on any other team. But they own the joint.

And that is why the Giants win and we don't.

Robert Kraft's son is the President of the organization. He does not head their personnel department. I don't think anyone would have a problem with Stephen holding just that title. One has nothing to do with the other.

[Hostile]

And I'll say it real slow-like so maybe it'll sink in. Reese runs the war room in New York. Jerry runs it in Dallas.

The Giants have their own Stephen Jones. His name is Kevin Abrams. They have their own Tom Ciskowskis. Their names are Dave Gettleman and Marc Ross. They all report back to their GM who leads the process. That GM is qualified with a successful background in scouting.

In Dallas, Tom Ciskowski hands his information to two guys who don't have one day of prior scouting experience. They have no successes in that area on their resume. They could never get into the room on any other team. But they own the joint.

And that is why the Giants win and we don't.

Robert Kraft's son is the President of the organization. He does not head their personnel department. I don't think anyone would have a problem with Stephen holding just that title. One has nothing to do with the other.The war rooms for all three teams are run the exact same way. The draft boards created for both teams are done by the lion's share work of the scouts, input from the coaches, and then a committee of minds carefully constructing the board with input weighted heavily towards the scouts analysis and the Coach's vision of the team.

You cannot show me a scrap of difference in how the data is assembled.

[Risen Star]

Please break down for me in detail how Jerry Reese evaluates players differently than Tom Ciskowski does. Show me in finite details where there is this Grand Canyon difference.

I'll wait and go shower while you scramble for a scrap of evidence.

I'll take that.

Reese has the power and authority to make final determinations on all personnel decisions. Tom Ciskowski isn't even 3rd in command in that area.

For the life of me I can't understand how somebody can compare the two. One's a GM. The other is the assistant director of personnel. You might as well ask me how Tom Coughlin coaches differently than Jerome Henderson.

[Risen Star]

The war rooms for all three teams are run the exact same way. The draft boards created for both teams are done by the lion's share work of the scouts, input from the coaches, and then a committee of minds carefully constructing the board with input weighted heavily towards the scouts analysis and the Coach's vision of the team.

You keep parroting the same response.

Hey, you got us. All teams have scouts, they conference and build their boards. Most teams have a legitimate leader with success in that area. We do not. We don't even have any legitimacy with his right hand man.

[Dodger12]

Please break down for me in detail how Jerry Reese evaluates players differently than Tom Ciskowski does. Show me in finite details where there is this Grand Canyon difference.

I'll wait go shower while you scramble for a scrap of evidence.

Again, my response to you was in your comparison of Stephen Jones to John Mara. You specifically stated that he didn't have any involvement until his father's death and again, from all indications, that was inaccurate.

I'm not a proponent of John Mara, I could really care less and I think the guy is a ****** bag and an underhanded *** for how he's handled the non-capped year by Dallas and Washington. I could also care less about the nepotism in how these guys got their NFL "jobs". But you're the one that's making a factually inaccurate statement and now you want me to explain?

But that's what you've been doing lately; you make a statement that you can't back up, move the goal posts when someone corrects you and then come up with these far out questions that can't be validated by any response.

[Hostile]

Again, my response to you was in your comparison of Stephen Jones to John Mara. You specifically stated that he didn't have any involvement until his father's death and again, from all indications, that was inaccurate.

I'm not a proponent of John Mara, I could really care less and I think the guy is a ****** bag and an underhanded *** for how he's handled the non-capped year by Dallas and Washington. I could also care less about the nepotism in how these guys got their NFL "jobs". But you're the one that's making a factually inaccurate statement and now you want me to explain?

But that's what you've been doing lately; you make a statement that you can't back up, move the goal posts when someone corrects you and then come up with these far out questions that can't be validated by any response.I misread the comment on Mara. I read it as 2005 before his father's death. I completely missed the 1991 comment. That does not change anything in your claims.

[Hostile]

You keep parroting the same response.

Hey, you got us. All teams have scouts, they conference and build their boards. Most teams have a legitimate leader with success in that area. We do not. We don't even have any legitimacy with his right hand man.Tom Ciskowski.

I am sorry you don't get that because of your obsession with titles.

You are right about one thing. I do have you. I am right.

[junk]

Being in a competition based career myself I guess I look at it a little different. I feel the frustration of the Boys as well, but even the haters should be able to see the turn the team has made this year.

I agree when Jerry was trying so hard to win to spite his critics, he made some bad choices. At the same time, one would have to be blind not to be able to see the change in philosophy that is so very evident in this off season in both the draft as well as FA.

The torch has quietly been passed...there will not be any formal announcement, you just have to observe to know this. This is a turning point with this team that we'll all be able to enjoy...relax, watch and see.

What makes me a "hater"? I want the team to win. I think the team's front office structure is an impediment to that.

What makes people think there was a mysterious turning point? What changed? Garrett?

[junk]

So now Garrett has zero scouting experience?

Do yourself a favor and google Jim Garrett.



I get you are trying to make your argument but don't just make random stuff up.

Um, Jim Garrett is Jason's dad. I know who he is. How did Jason get scouting experience from the work his Dad did?

Is scouting experience passed on genetically?

Let me know where in between Princeton, his NFL career and his coaching career, Jason spent time scouting.

My dad used to work in the oilfield....I'm pretty sure I'm not qualified to go work on a rig because of his career.

[junk]

Please break down for me in detail how Jerry Reese evaluates players differently than Tom Ciskowski does. Show me in finite details where there is this Grand Canyon difference.


The way they evaluate players probably isn't all that much different. I'm sure the building of the draft board is probably pretty similar.

However, that is where the similarities end.

After leading his team to assemble a draft board, Reese leads the draft day process. He makes the call on who is selected, when to trade (up or down), what player to take when they come across a player rated equally etc, etc.

In Dallas, that gets handed over to the Jones family. Jerry decides he wants to trade up, Stephen talks him out of it, etc. Ciskowski doesn't have final say on how the draft strategy is executed. Reese does.

Same goes for other personnel decisions. Evaluation of free agents (both the team's and other teams), long term contract and cap management, roster management, etc.

I'm sure Ciskowski assists with rankings of the team's players and free agents, but he's not given the responsibility to build the roster. Reese is. He's in charge of putting together the roster.

Do both get inputs from coaches and scouts? Yep.

Do both have cap guys to help them with the numbers and contract language? Yep

Does Reese have two people above him making decisions that don't have a background in personnel? Nope.

Reese's responsibility is to assemble a competitive roster and he has the power to do that. Ciskowski is essentially an information gather without any real pull other than suggestion.

If Reese wanted to move up to grab a player, he could. Ciskowski could offer it as suggestion that may or may not happen depending upon the whims of the Jones boys.

Try to spin it anyway you want, but other than Cincinnati, Dallas is different than most front offices in the league and definitely different than the teams that have been consistently successful over the years.



I'll wait and go shower while you scramble for a scrap of evidence.
:) Hypocrisy.

[Risen Star]

Tom Ciskowski.

I am sorry you don't get that because of your obsession with titles.

You are right about one thing. I do have you. I am right.

I actually feel bad for you. All your left with now is pretending the assistant director of personnel runs our war room.

You're like Zoolander. He just can't turn left. You just can't be critical of the Cowboys.

[Bluestang]

Um, Jim Garrett is Jason's dad. I know who he is. How did Jason get scouting experience from the work his Dad did?

Is scouting experience passed on genetically?

Let me know where in between Princeton, his NFL career and his coaching career, Jason spent time scouting.

My dad used to work in the oilfield....I'm pretty sure I'm not qualified to go work on a rig because of his career.


Is there some scouting university that one must attend to be a able to say that they are a scout?

Considering that Judd is the director of pro scouting, and John was a former scout for the Bengals I will go on a limb here and say that Jason probably knows a thing or two about scouting players. Their dad was instrumental in getting all them involved with football at an early age. Did your dad do the same for you?


The Garrett family is the very definition of a football family.

[tupperware]

Well one of the larger complaints about Jerry has been his ego and his need to always be in the spotlight. I just don't get that from Stephen. He seems a lot more grounded to me.

[Hostile]

I actually feel bad for you. All your left with now is pretending the assistant director of personnel runs our war room.

You're like Zoolander. He just can't turn left. You just can't be critical of the Cowboys.
I don't care who "runs" the war room. I care about whether the work is getting done. I am critical of the team when I feel it is warranted. In this case I don't think you guys are anywhere close to warm and you're not getting warmer because you can't get past the titles.

[Risen Star]

I don't care who "runs" the war room. I care about whether the work is getting done. I am critical of the team when I feel it is warranted. In this case I don't think you guys are anywhere close to warm and you're not getting warmer because you can't get past the titles.

I care who runs it. Because that's the guy making the final decisions. Cincinnati did the work. So did Oakland and Washington. It didn't make their front office structure conducive to winning.

If you think that many minds agree on everything about every player, you're kidding yourself.

Plus it would be nice if the GM and even the Director of Personnel actually had something productive to add to the discussion.

I've seen your idea of being critical. But commemorative patches on uniforms doesn't cut the mustard. How about a two decade long organizational structure that actually effects our ability to win games?

[Hostile]

I care who runs it. Because that's the guy making the final decisions. Cincinnati did the work. So did Oakland and Washington. It didn't make their front office structure conducive to winning.

If you think that many minds agree on everything about every player, you're kidding yourself.

Plus it would be nice if the GM and even the Director of Personnel actually had something productive to add to the discussion.

I've seen your idea of being critical. But commemorative patches on uniforms doesn't cut the mustard. How about a two decade long organizational structure that actually effects our ability to win games?I've never said they always agree. Nor have any of them. I have said eventually they come to consensus and I think that has been borne out.

Funny how when they came to it on going up for Claiborne it was Stephen who made the call and the final decision on whether to throw in our 5th round pick or not.

Just saying.

[Hostile]

Your exact quote: "Were he not Jerry's son he would be one of the most sought after people in the country for any position."

I'm simply disagreeing with that contention since I don't believe he would be considered by other teams to be GM, or even personnel director, or scout.
Do you have some kind of link or proof other teams would seek him for any of these positons? Or was that just an opinion of your own?It is an opinion, just like yours. I am waiting for any of you guys to show me where he is laughed at in League circles.

Again, not sure what you are referring to.Okay. Say hi to Bob for me.

[AKATheRake]

They aren't, except in the minds of a minimal few.

Those minimal few are the Jones'.

[junk]

Is there some scouting university that one must attend to be a able to say that they are a scout?

No, but you should work in it a little bit to know what you are doing. Just like any other job.

You know, spending some time doing the actually doing the work. Learning what you did right and what you did wrong, getting feedback from someone with experience.

Garrett has never done that.

Take any profession. Do the sons of doctors jump right into the operating room? Do the sons of engineers jump right into the building of a bridge or a plane? Nope, they get trained and they work their way up to those responsibilities.


Considering that Judd is the director of pro scouting, and John was a former scout for the Bengals I will go on a limb here and say that Jason probably knows a thing or two about scouting players. Their dad was instrumental in getting all them involved with football at an early age. Did your dad do the same for you?


The Garrett family is the very definition of a football family.

Well, now we're back into the nepotism thing. I guess because they are a "football family" that makes them qualified.

Is Judd qualified to be Director of Pro Scouting? Not based on his resume.

John is the only one who has put any time in learning the trade. 1 year as a Bengals scout.

No wonder no one ever gets hired out of the Cowboys org to go do anything else.

[Bluestang]

No, but you should work in it a little bit to know what you are doing. Just like any other job.

You know, spending some time doing the actually doing the work. Learning what you did right and what you did wrong, getting feedback from someone with experience.

Garrett has never done that.

Take any profession. Do the sons of doctors jump right into the operating room? Do the sons of engineers jump right into the building of a bridge or a plane? Nope, they get trained and they work their way up to those responsibilities.


So playing and coaching in the NFL don't give you experience into identifying how to find football players?


Well, now we're back into the nepotism thing. I guess because they are a "football family" that makes them qualified.

Is Judd qualified to be Director of Pro Scouting? Not based on his resume.

John is the only one who has put any time in learning the trade. 1 year as a Bengals scout.

No wonder no one ever gets hired out of the Cowboys org to go do anything else.

All three of them have been in football since their childhoods, what more do you need to know?

[ScipioCowboy]

You can stack as many floors on that building as you want. If the foundation isn't sturdy, the whole thing still collapses.

[junk]

So playing and coaching in the NFL don't give you experience into identifying how to find football players?
You could ask Matt Millen.


All three of them have been in football since their childhoods, what more do you need to know?

Playing football and scouting are two different things. Just because you can play, that doesn't mean you can come in and be an efficient scout on day 1.

Again, did he pick this up by osmosis from his Dad?

Let's look at some of Judd's work since becoming director of pro scouting:

Traded for Roy Williams, WR
Signed Keith Brooking
Signed Sensabaugh
Signed Igor Olshansky
Brought back Sam Hurd for over $1.5 million
Signed Tony Fiametta
Signed Laurent Robinson
Signed Brandon Carr
Signed MacKenzy Bernadeau
Signed Nate Livings

I'd say Robinson was an overwhelming success, but he came on the recommendation of Norv

Carr should be a good signing.

[yimyammer]

I've been saying this for a while now. Since 2009, it's been Stephen's ship, good or bad. It was most readily apparent during the Nnamdi chase.

What about the Nnamdi chase made you feel this way?

[DavyBaby]

Just a quick historical observation to make in this debate. . . .

The great Tex Schramm just started as a PR guy with the Rams in the early 50s (he was never a scout, player or coach). He was a journalism major at the University of Texas and got the Rams job through family "connections."

However, he was a **smart guy** and learned what to do and not what to in building a great football team through careful observation. By 1960 he had a very clear vision on how to build a successful football team in Dallas.

All this is based from a really good book about Tex Schramm published in 1987:
http://www.amazon.com/Tex-The-Built-Dallas-Cowboys/dp/0139119752/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336397753&sr=8-1

I really think it is **possible** that Stephen Jones has taken a similar path . . . only time will tell . . . .

[Chocolate Lab]

Oddly enough, this is the exact same title Scott Pioli held while with the Patriots. Word for word. His title now with Kansas City is GM, yet his duties are the exact same.Not true. There's a huge difference between Pioli's responsibility in New England and his one in KC.

[junk]

Just a quick historical observation to make in this debate. . . .

The great Tex Schramm just started as a PR guy with the Rams in the early 50s (he was never a scout, player or coach). He was a journalism major at the University of Texas and got the Rams job through family "connections."

However, he was a **smart guy** and learned what to do and not what to in building a great football team through careful observation. By 1960 he had a very clear vision on how to build a successful football team in Dallas.

All this is based from a really good book about Tex Schramm published in 1987:
http://www.amazon.com/Tex-The-Built-Dallas-Cowboys/dp/0139119752/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336397753&sr=8-1

I really think it is **possible** that Stephen Jones has taken a similar path . . . only time will tell . . . .

Actually, Tex did work as a scout of sorts for a short period of time for the Rams.

Tex came from a different time as well. Teams didn't have scouting departments then. Dan Reeves (the Rams owner at the time...not the former coach) was one of the first to try to implement a scouting department and then Schramm took it to the next step with the Cowboys.

Tex was essentially in on the ground floor.


Schramm caught on to things quickly just as he did at the Times. As Tex began taking on more responsibilities, Daniel Reeves introduced him to the Rams' NFL football draft process, which was far and away the most advanced of any team in the NFL at the time.

After working in publicity for two years, Tex became Reeves' go-to guy for everything related to the organization as assistant to the president specializing in scouting. Although Schramm wasn't given the formal title of general manager until 1954, he performed the duties of that role from 1951 until his departure in 1957 under increasingly difficult circumstances.


http://www.everything-dallascowboys.com/history/schramm/tex-schramm.html

[Bluestang]

You could ask Matt Millen.



Playing football and scouting are two different things. Just because you can play, that doesn't mean you can come in and be an efficient scout on day 1.

Again, did he pick this up by osmosis from his Dad?

Let's look at some of Judd's work since becoming director of pro scouting:

Traded for Roy Williams, WR
Signed Keith Brooking
Signed Sensabaugh
Signed Igor Olshansky
Brought back Sam Hurd for over $1.5 million
Signed Tony Fiametta
Signed Laurent Robinson
Signed Brandon Carr
Signed MacKenzy Bernadeau
Signed Nate Livings

I'd say Robinson was an overwhelming success, but he came on the recommendation of Norv

Carr should be a good signing.


I've never said that they learned how to be effecient talent evalutors from day 1, but their experience level in the NFL has taught them a thing or two. Just look at the coaches that Jason Garrett has been involved with throughout his time being involved with football as player and as a coach.

[DavyBaby]

Point taken (I forgot about Schramm being a scout briefly).

But-- but the key point remains that Tex is a great example of a non-football guy -- who evolved into a great GM. Yes times were more simplistic in the 50s, in turn Stephen Jones apprenticeship has been longer than Schramm's.

Will Stephen Jones be a great football guy???? Nobody currently can answer that definitively. Maybe Jerry has to die first before we can find out.

All I am saying is that his "career path" does not **preclude** greatness as the future GM of the Dallas Cowboys.



Actually, Tex did work as a scout of sorts for a short period of time for the Rams.

Tex came from a different time as well. Teams didn't have scouting departments then. Dan Reeves (the Rams owner at the time...not the former coach) was one of the first to try to implement a scouting department and then Schramm took it to the next step with the Cowboys.

Tex was essentially in on the ground floor.



http://www.everything-dallascowboys.com/history/schramm/tex-schramm.html

[Hostile]

Not true. There's a huge difference between Pioli's responsibility in New England and his one in KC.No sir.

[Chocolate Lab]

No sir.

Eh, yes there is.

[Hostile]

Eh, yes there is.
Post some proof to back up your claim.

[junk]

Point taken (I forgot about Schramm being a scout briefly).

But-- but the key point remains that Tex is a great example of a non-football guy -- who evolved into a great GM. Yes times were more simplistic in the 50s, in turn Stephen Jones apprenticeship has been longer than Schramm's.

Will Stephen Jones be a great football guy???? Nobody currently can answer that definitively. Maybe Jerry has to die first before we can find out.

All I am saying is that his "career path" does not **preclude** greatness as the future GM of the Dallas Cowboys.

I do think Stephen got his job due to his last name rather than merit. And, I still don't think he's qualified to be a GM or Director of Player Personnel. However, I do have more hope for him than Jerry. He does seem more level headed and has been taking on more of a role.

We'll see....if he takes the reins and signs a GM, I'd be pretty happy.

[Risen Star]

It's fair to say that a guy with no prior scouting experience can become a good GM, but it's far less likely than a guy with a scouting background.

This is the Dallas Cowboys. There is no more important member of the organization than the GM. We should expect better than hoping the owner's son has a knack for it when he takes over.

[Risen Star]

I do think Stephen got his job due to his last name rather than merit.

I don't think that's even a thought. It's just a fact. You don't get that high up the totem pole with no resume without a direct connection to the owner.

[cowboy_ron]

The energizer bunny has arrived

[junk]

Regarding Pioli's role in KC versus NE.

From the Patriots website:


Why is it that other NFL teams have a GM and the Patriots do not? Does President Jonathan Kraft serve as GM?
B Bruin

The Patriots don’t have a general manager by title but Bill Belichick has served in that role throughout his tenure as the team’s head coach. He has final say on personnel decisions and drafting and that’s the way it was even when Scott Pioli was here as his personnel director. So while most teams have a GM to point toward in this regard, in New England it’s all Belichick.
Paul Perillo


http://www.patriots.com/news/article-1/Ask-PFW-Getting-coordinated-during-bye/7c9c13b1-6e2d-48bc-81e8-68244dce65dc

In KC, Pioli has complete charge of football operations.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80e19199&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true


"He will have complete charge of football operations," Ryan Petkoff, a spokesman for Chiefs chairman Clark Hunt, told The Associated Press. "He will report only to Clark."


So, yes, his role is dramatically different in KC than it was in NE.

[Chocolate Lab]

So, yes, his role is dramatically different in KC than it was in NE.That's it. It comes down to the magic words: Final Say. Belichick had it in New England; Pioli has it in KC.

You can talk about committees and consensus and all that, but when there's disagreement, someone has to make the final decision -- and here that's Jerry.

It's just like in that old SI story Alexander posted about the pre-draft discussions on how to rank Jammer vs. Roy Williams. Sure, Ireland and Ciskowski and Zimmer and Campo all chipped in, but Jerry made the final call on how to set the draft board.

[dreghorn2]

Regarding Pioli's role in KC versus NE.

From the Patriots website:



http://www.patriots.com/news/article-1/Ask-PFW-Getting-coordinated-during-bye/7c9c13b1-6e2d-48bc-81e8-68244dce65dc

In KC, Pioli has complete charge of football operations.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80e19199&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true



So, yes, his role is dramatically different in KC than it was in NE.


Lol.. awesome.

[Hostile]

:lmao2:

So the only difference between is "final say?"

That is such a huge reach for a reason to create all of this controversy that it is beyond amusing. Anyone who thinks that "final say" is reached without discussion is balmy. Besides that the owners all have the true "final say" anyway. Like in Pittsburgh where Bruce Arians is gone because Art Rooney II wanted him gone. So he artificially retired him. Only Arians didn't really retire.

Kevin Colbert was who facilitated that exit? Baloney. He has to live with it.

Jerry has final say on personnel, yet Stephen was on the phone with the Rams and made the decision to stand on just offering our 2nd round pick.

Classic cases of denial you guys suffer from.

I can't wait for the next chapter as more and more the truth will come out about how all teams do this. It ought to be a hoot.

[junk]

:lmao2:

So the only difference between is "final say?"


Yes, that is a big deal as much as you don't want to admit it. And, it obviously was to Pioli as well since he took the job.

I'm not sure what jobs you guys have in the real world, but there is always a pecking order. If people are ambitious, they want to move up that pecking order so they have more authority and final decision making abilities. It usually comes with more money and more prestige. Plus, it is flat out more rewarding to be able to create something the way you want it to be done.

Are decisions made by committee along the way? Sure. Does the person in charge have to get input from subordinates to make decisions? Sure.

But, how does that person get in a position where they have that authority and final say? By gaining the experience proving they are capable of making those decisions. And, if the company suffers because of the decisions they made, they are replaced. You know, like 1 playoff win in 15 years types of performance.


That is such a huge reach for a reason to create all of this controversy that it is beyond amusing. Anyone who thinks that "final say" is reached without discussion is balmy. Besides that the owners all have the true "final say" anyway. Like in Pittsburgh where Bruce Arians is gone because Art Rooney II wanted him gone. So he artificially retired him. Only Arians didn't really retire.


Wow, this board loves to debunk myths, right? How about we end this one once and for all?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7742778/pittsburgh-steelers-mike-tomlin-says-o-coordinator-change-was-call


Pittsburgh Steelers coach Mike Tomlin made it clear Tuesday that it was his call to replace offensive coordinator Bruce Arians with Todd Haley and that the directive to make a change didn't come from above.



Jerry has final say on personnel, yet Stephen was on the phone with the Rams and made the decision to stand on just offering our 2nd round pick.

Classic cases of denial you guys suffer from.

I can't wait for the next chapter as more and more the truth will come out about how all teams do this. It ought to be a hoot.
So, explain this. Stephen said he had to hold a gun to Jerry's head to keep him from trading back into the second.

Why would he care unless Jerry had the power and authority to make that decision?

I'll agree the team operates as a committee, at times, but Jerry has the power to make that final decision. My argument has always been that when Jerry deviates from the structured approach and makes those decisions, the team suffers. It leads to an inconsistent approach and, more often than not, bad decisions. (see Quincy Carter, Roy Williams, almost any case of moving down in the draft)

Is it starting to shift to Stephen? Maybe. Are the results better? Maybe, probably too early to say. The results on the field aren't. Is Stephen qualified? Not as much as others in the league.

You wanted proof.....I've yet to see a counter to explain why the current organizational structure is perfectly acceptable with a 1 playoff win in 15 years performance.

[Mash]

Yes, that is a big deal as much as you don't want to admit it. And, it obviously was to Pioli as well since he took the job.

I'm not sure what jobs you guys have in the real world, but there is always a pecking order. If people are ambitious, they want to move up that pecking order so they have more authority and final decision making abilities. It usually comes with more money and more prestige. Plus, it is flat out more rewarding to be able to create something the way you want it to be done.

Are decisions made by committee along the way? Sure. Does the person in charge have to get input from subordinates to make decisions? Sure.

But, how does that person get in a position where they have that authority and final say? By gaining the experience proving they are capable of making those decisions. And, if the company suffers because of the decisions they made, they are replaced. You know, like 1 playoff win in 15 years types of performance.



Wow, this board loves to debunk myths, right? How about we end this one once and for all?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7742778/pittsburgh-steelers-mike-tomlin-says-o-coordinator-change-was-call





So, explain this. Stephen said he had to hold a gun to Jerry's head to keep him from trading back into the second.

Why would he care unless Jerry had the power and authority to make that decision?

I'll agree the team operates as a committee, at times, but Jerry has the power to make that final decision. My argument has always been that when Jerry deviates from the structured approach and makes those decisions, the team suffers. It leads to an inconsistent approach and, more often than not, bad decisions. (see Quincy Carter, Roy Williams, almost any case of moving down in the draft)

Is it starting to shift to Stephen? Maybe. Are the results better? Maybe, probably too early to say. The results on the field aren't. Is Stephen qualified? Not as much as others in the league.

You wanted proof.....I've yet to see a counter to explain why the current organizational structure is perfectly acceptable with a 1 playoff win in 15 years performance.

The Eagles have had what? some playoff wins?....sure...but No SuperBowls.....Lots of talent...2 Franchise Qb's....one of the best DC to ever coach in the league.......Should Andy Reid give up ? He has the final say there.....

btw...the current organizational structure is like alot of them in the NFL. Sure Jerry has the final say. He is the owner and GM. To think that decisions are not made by a collective group is hogwash. All GM's....even the great Bellicheat takes input from people he trusts.

Anyways....Jerry get a lifetime pass.....he was at the top of the pecking order when we won 3 Super Bowls....he has put some talented teams on the field the last several years..........Thats all I can ask.......winning a playoff game....here and there isnt success imho.

And Stephen is plenty qualified to be a "football guy" in this league.

[Bluestang]

So which article is right? The one from ESPN or this one?

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/01/bruce-arians-says-he-was-not-offered-contract-no-reason-was-given-as-to-why/

"Rooney made it seem like was the decision was the one that head coach Mike Tomlin would make, but looking at all the evidence now, Tomlin had no say in the matter."

And since he wasn't offered a contract, whose shoulders does that fall on?

The head coach, the GM, or the owner?


If you ask me Tomlin looks to be saving face at the Owner's meeting.

[junk]

The Eagles have had what? some playoff wins?....sure...but No SuperBowls.....Lots of talent...2 Franchise Qb's....one of the best DC to ever coach in the league.......Should Andy Reid give up ? He has the final say there.....

I don't think you'll see me prop up the Eagles. They do some good things personnel wise, but they make some odd decisions just like the Cowboys. I think both teams are usually overrated by the media. And, to be honest, the Eagles results aren't that great.

I look at the franchises that are consistently good over long periods of time as the models that you should follow. Pittsburgh and NE are probably the class of the league right now. I think GB is just a notch below them and may be in that group very soon.

The NYG have to get credit because of the two recent SB wins, but they seem awfully inconsistent in between.

I like what Baltimore does in their front office, but they also can't seem to get over the hump (except they actually seem to get to the playoffs before stalling out).

SF is another team to watch as I think Baalke and Harbaugh have them heading in the right direction.

Indy has also had a fair share of success over the last few years, but they are obviously back in a rebuilding mode now.


btw...the current organizational structure is like alot of them in the NFL. Sure Jerry has the final say. He is the owner and GM. To think that decisions are not made by a collective group is hogwash. All GM's....even the great Bellicheat takes input from people he trusts.

It isn't like the successful ones. They have a qualified personnel guy as the GM. They don't have a son/Director of Player Personnel that has to talk the GM out of rash decisions. I think the Cowboys structure is unlike anything else in the league.

Are some decisions made by committee? Sure, but not all.


Anyways....Jerry get a lifetime pass.....he was at the top of the pecking order when we won 3 Super Bowls....he has put some talented teams on the field the last several years..........Thats all I can ask.......winning a playoff game....here and there isnt success imho.

No, but consistently getting to the playoffs, consistently winning playoff games and giving your shot the Super Bowl year in and year out is success. See above.

[junk]

So which article is right? The one from ESPN or this one?

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/01/bruce-arians-says-he-was-not-offered-contract-no-reason-was-given-as-to-why/


All I see is speculation in that post. Arians said he wasn't given a reason why his contract wasn't extended. Nothing was stated saying that it was Rooney's decision. Just speculation.


And since he wasn't offered a contract, whose shoulders does that fall on?

The head coach, the GM, or the owner?

At that point, does it matter? It was the coach's call (per him). The formalities of informing could come from anyone.

If Tomlin told the owner he wanted to go a different direction, it'd be easy enough for the owner to inform Arians.

Again, all we're doing is speculating here.....the coach said it was his decision. Not Rooney's as has been bandied about as fact around here.


If you ask me Tomlin looks to be saving face at the Owner's meeting.
If you ask me, that sounds like speculation and opinion.

[Mash]

I don't think you'll see me prop up the Eagles. They do some good things personnel wise, but they make some odd decisions just like the Cowboys. I think both teams are usually overrated by the media. And, to be honest, the Eagles results aren't that great.

I look at the franchises that are consistently good over long periods of time as the models that you should follow. Pittsburgh and NE are probably the class of the league right now. I think GB is just a notch below them and may be in that group very soon.

The NYG have to get credit because of the two recent SB wins, but they seem awfully inconsistent in between.

I like what Baltimore does in their front office, but they also can't seem to get over the hump (except they actually seem to get to the playoffs before stalling out).

SF is another team to watch as I think Baalke and Harbaugh have them heading in the right direction.

Indy has also had a fair share of success over the last few years, but they are obviously back in a rebuilding mode now.


It isn't like the successful ones. They have a qualified personnel guy as the GM. They don't have a son/Director of Player Personnel that has to talk the GM out of rash decisions. I think the Cowboys structure is unlike anything else in the league.

Are some decisions made by committee? Sure, but not all.


No, but consistently getting to the playoffs, consistently winning playoff games and giving your shot the Super Bowl year in and year out is success. See above.

So...The Eagles have had playoff success....winning records....NFC Championship games but they are not in par with Green Bay? Is this because they lack a SB rings?

I understand NE...Pitt and Balt have solid organizations....but they have been thru there bumps too.....years ago. Indy is all about Payton Manning....there drafts have been pathetic....or should we say...bad or as bad as Dallas.

San Fran heading in right direction? Sure....I could say the same with Dallas. SF has some nice players. But I dont see them more talented then Dallas imho. And now because they have had a successfull season playing in a bad division...their mangement is considered really good?

And whats this crap about Director of personal talking the GM out of rash decisions? Are you naive enough to think GM's in this league are not talked out of making bad decisions? Do you really think Ozzie or Bellicheat never been talked out of a bad decision concerning personal? Please.....im sorry but your wrong on that

Im really hoping Dallas wins another SB soon....just so we can put all this crap to bed......their structure isnt that much diiferent then most NFL teams. Your opinion on Stephen and Jerry is the issue. You dont believe they deserve or are qualified to be "football men" .....Alot of us believe they do.....

Every GM makes bad decisions...and teams that have been consistantly good over a span of years....usually have a Franchise QB.....other then Balt who will win nothing to they get one....all the other teams ...Pitt...NE...GB have Franchise QB's. I mean lool at NE draft the past several years....they have been ok....but not earth shattering....I look at their defense and I see a weak unit. I think Bellicheat is one of the best game planners in the league....but that has nothing to do with the front office getting talent.


Anyways brother.....I just plainly disagree on this.....thats all...

[cowboys#1]

When did the Dallas Cowboys become the Jones Dynasty?
in 1989, when the check cleared

[Bluestang]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/26/art-rooney-ii-on-bruce-arians-it-was-time-for-a-change/

“Bruce did a good job for us and we appreciate everything he’s done,” Rooney said. “I think the questions of how we got here are not really relevant. I think the key now is Mike has begun the search for our next offensive coordinator and I think he’ll do a good job finding the right person. We’ll go through the process and interview the right candidates. But we’re looking to improve on offense and have somebody possibly to be in place for a number of years. Bruce had talked about retirement for a few years now, so I think it was time for a change, and we’re looking forward to moving on.”

If Rooney is just a sit back guy why is he telling the media that "we'll go through the process...we're looking to improve on offense".

Why didn't he defer all of this to Mike Tomlin right off the bat? IMO he undermined Tomlin by addressing the media himself instead of letting his decision maker make those comments first and then we get those exact comments way after the fact at the Owners meeting. Strange don't you agree?

[junk]

So...The Eagles have had playoff success....winning records....NFC Championship games but they are not in par with Green Bay? Is this because they lack a SB rings?

Super Bowls are a big thing in my opinion. That is, ultimately, why you play.

Philly had a great stretch from 2000 to 2004. They've had varying levels of success since then.


San Fran heading in right direction? Sure....I could say the same with Dallas. SF has some nice players. But I dont see them more talented then Dallas imho. And now because they have had a successfull season playing in a bad division...their mangement is considered really good?

They played in the NFC championship game this year (lost in OT). I think their D is very solid.

Their turn around started when they changed management....so yes, I credit their management for the turnaround.

Will they be able to continue to perform at that level? I think so, but I could be wrong. Time will tell.


Im really hoping Dallas wins another SB soon....just so we can put all this crap to bed......their structure isnt that much diiferent then most NFL teams. Your opinion on Stephen and Jerry is the issue. You dont believe they deserve or are qualified to be "football men" .....Alot of us believe they do.....

I hope they do.

Their structure is much different than most teams, especially successful one.


Every GM makes bad decisions...and teams that have been consistantly good over a span of years....usually have a Franchise QB.....other then Balt who will win nothing to they get one....all the other teams ...Pitt...NE...GB have Franchise QB's. I mean lool at NE draft the past several years....they have been ok....but not earth shattering....I look at their defense and I see a weak unit. I think Bellicheat is one of the best game planners in the league....but that has nothing to do with the front office getting talent.
Dallas has a franchise QB too.

The draft is a crapshoot. Injuries can derail a whole season. No doubt that luck is involved.

But you gotta put yourself in the best position to succeed every year to have any chance.

I can't see how people can say that based upon past performance from Dallas.

Are they changing things? Maybe. But the main culprits that have stood watch on this mess for the last 15 years are still there standing watch.


Anyways brother.....I just plainly disagree on this.....thats all...

Fair enough.

[junk]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/26/art-rooney-ii-on-bruce-arians-it-was-time-for-a-change/



If Rooney is just a sit back guy why is he telling the media that "we'll go through the process...we're looking to improve on offense".

Why didn't he defer all of this to Mike Tomlin right off the bat? IMO he undermined Tomlin by addressing the media himself instead of letting his decision maker make those comments first and then we get those exact comments way after the fact at the Owners meeting. Strange don't you agree?

I think you are really starting to grasp at straws.

Weren't people harping about proof in this thread? I've provided proof on this issue coming directly from Tomlin himself.

All I've seen on the other side is speculation.

Do we want to speculate? Maybe Tomlin walked into Rooney's office after the season and said he didn't want Arians back. Take care of it and then I'll find my new OC.

[Bluestang]

I think you are really starting to grasp at straws.

Weren't people harping about proof in this thread? I've provided proof on this issue coming directly from Tomlin himself.

All I've seen on the other side is speculation.

Do we want to speculate? Maybe Tomlin walked into Rooney's office after the season and said he didn't want Arians back. Take care of it and then I'll find my new OC.


The owner was directly quoted in the article. He was the first person to address the issue and not the coach, why?

That's the simple answer that you obviously cannot give without conceding the fact that the owner overstepped his bounds.

[Eddie]

Im really hoping Dallas wins another SB soon....just so we can put all this crap to bed......their structure isnt that much diiferent then most NFL teams. Your opinion on Stephen and Jerry is the issue. You dont believe they deserve or are qualified to be "football men" .....Alot of us believe they do.....
.

Wow, so as Cowboy fans ...we're reduced to HOPING for another SB?

This really is pathetic.

[junk]

The owner was directly quoted in the article. He was the first person to address the issue and not the coach, why?

That's the simple answer that you obviously cannot give without conceding the fact that the owner overstepped his bounds.

We can play these "what if" scenarios all day. Bottom line is that the coach said it was his decision.

Jerry Jones oversteps his bounds all the time.

Here's one example where he thought he was deciding who the starting running back was. Way worse than announcing an assistant coach didn't have his contract extended.

http://cowboysblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/11/cowboys-owner-jerry-jones-stil.html

[Bluestang]

We can play these "what if" scenarios all day. Bottom line is that the coach said it was his decision.

Jerry Jones oversteps his bounds all the time.

Here's one example where he thought he was deciding who the starting running back was. Way worse than announcing an assistant coach didn't have his contract extended.

http://cowboysblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/11/cowboys-owner-jerry-jones-stil.html


I guess you can't answer the previous question so I'll just save myself some time and quit the back and forth until you do.

[Dodger12]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/26/art-rooney-ii-on-bruce-arians-it-was-time-for-a-change/



If Rooney is just a sit back guy why is he telling the media that "we'll go through the process...we're looking to improve on offense".

Why didn't he defer all of this to Mike Tomlin right off the bat? IMO he undermined Tomlin by addressing the media himself instead of letting his decision maker make those comments first and then we get those exact comments way after the fact at the Owners meeting. Strange don't you agree?

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/42491/wake-up-rooney-says-tomlin-hired-haley

Wake-up: Rooney says Tomlin hired Haley
February, 17, 2012
FEB 17

By Jamison Hensley
Every morning, grab a cup of coffee and get your AFC North wake-up call here:

Steelers president Art Rooney II shot down speculation that he hired offensive coordinator Todd Haley, saying it was head coach Mike Tomlin's decision.

"I think the bottom line is, Mike was comfortable that's who he wanted to come in," Rooney told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. "It may be fair to say that when he started the discussions and Todd's name was on his original list, I don't think he expected that Todd was the guy he was going to wind up hiring. But as he had more conversations with him, he became more comfortable that he was the right guy for the job."

According to Rooney, Tomlin had all of the initial talks with the offensive coordinator candidates on the phone before bringing in Haley and Jim Caldwell for interviews. Rooney said he spoke with Haley and Caldwell, describing it more as conversations than actual interviews.

"I wouldn't want my role in it to be overestimated because Mike has to decide who he wants on the staff," Rooney told the paper. "Even though there's always a discussion between me and Mike about who he's hiring and how much we're paying him and those kinds of things, it's normally a discussion of the business side of the arrangement than, 'Are we going to hire a guy who's going to run the ball so many times a game.' It was a fairly normal process as far as I'm concerned in terms of how we've done those kinds of hirings in the past."

[Dodger12]

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/01...h-mike-tomlin/

"Bruce Arians Decision Rests With Mike Tomlin"

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2012/...ive-interview/

Steelers President Art Rooney II Talks Bruce Arians In Exclusive Interview

Bob Pompeani: “Do you want Bruce Arians back as an offensive coordinator?”

Art Rooney II: “Well, that’s really Mike’s decision, I mean, and that’s the process Mike’s involved in right now is talking to all of the coaches about where they are and where they are with their contracts, so I think that’s something – I’ll leave it to those guys to kind of work out where we’re going on that front.

[Mash]

Wow, so as Cowboy fans ...we're reduced to HOPING for another SB?

This really is pathetic.

Really? What's wrong in having hope?

That doesn't mean I have any less expectations then you......

If you ever read any of my post I don't look as playoff wins as some sort of success. It's SB or bust.

Geezzz......Ive been waiting 47 years to see my Leafs win the Stanley cup.......I guess I should of expected a Stanley Cup all these yrs.......I didn't know that is what makes a true fan and not so pathetic :rolleyes:

Anyways....not a big deal.....I was responding to another poster.....it shouldn't really concern you.....in fact your response was more pathetic.....you should really get off that high horse IMHO.

[Bluestang]

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/01...h-mike-tomlin/

"Bruce Arians Decision Rests With Mike Tomlin"

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2012/...ive-interview/

Steelers President Art Rooney II Talks Bruce Arians In Exclusive Interview

Bob Pompeani: “Do you want Bruce Arians back as an offensive coordinator?”

Art Rooney II: “Well, that’s really Mike’s decision, I mean, and that’s the process Mike’s involved in right now is talking to all of the coaches about where they are and where they are with their contracts, so I think that’s something – I’ll leave it to those guys to kind of work out where we’re going on that front.

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/42491/wake-up-rooney-says-tomlin-hired-haley

Wake-up: Rooney says Tomlin hired Haley
February, 17, 2012
FEB 17

By Jamison Hensley
Every morning, grab a cup of coffee and get your AFC North wake-up call here:

Steelers president Art Rooney II shot down speculation that he hired offensive coordinator Todd Haley, saying it was head coach Mike Tomlin's decision.

"I think the bottom line is, Mike was comfortable that's who he wanted to come in," Rooney told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. "It may be fair to say that when he started the discussions and Todd's name was on his original list, I don't think he expected that Todd was the guy he was going to wind up hiring. But as he had more conversations with him, he became more comfortable that he was the right guy for the job."

According to Rooney, Tomlin had all of the initial talks with the offensive coordinator candidates on the phone before bringing in Haley and Jim Caldwell for interviews. Rooney said he spoke with Haley and Caldwell, describing it more as conversations than actual interviews.

"I wouldn't want my role in it to be overestimated because Mike has to decide who he wants on the staff," Rooney told the paper. "Even though there's always a discussion between me and Mike about who he's hiring and how much we're paying him and those kinds of things, it's normally a discussion of the business side of the arrangement than, 'Are we going to hire a guy who's going to run the ball so many times a game.' It was a fairly normal process as far as I'm concerned in terms of how we've done those kinds of hirings in the past."


I'm still going to point to the articles in January where Art Rooney was the only one quoted by the media and there are plenty to go around.

No one still has answered why Tomlin wasn't the first person to address the media on the firing of Bruce Arians, err should I say "retirement".

[junk]

I guess you can't answer the previous question so I'll just save myself some time and quit the back and forth until you do.

I'm still going to point to the articles in January where Art Rooney was the only one quoted by the media and there are plenty to go around.

No one still has answered why Tomlin wasn't the first person to address the media on the firing of Bruce Arians, err should I say "retirement".

Yep, you're right. I can't answer why Mike Tomlin wanted to replace his offensive coordinator and had his president announce it. I don't know of too many coaches that do announce coaching fires though.

Doesn't change the fact that the original assertion.....that Art Rooney forced him out. That has been proven multiple times in this thread by multiple posters. But, I guess you are still desperately clinging to this as proof of something.

Hey guys, remember when it seemed like Rooney might have pushed for Arians ouster even though the HC said it was his decision? That definitely proves Dallas is just like any other org if Jerry does it!!!

Jerry ousted Brian Stewart. Yet another example of overstepping your bounds.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3839284

[Dodger12]

I'm still going to point to the articles in January where Art Rooney was the only one quoted by the media and there are plenty to go around.

No one still has answered why Tomlin wasn't the first person to address the media on the firing of Bruce Arians, err should I say "retirement".

And what does that prove? Maybe Tomlin wasn't around. Could it be that he was in Florida burying his father who had passed away that week and wasn't available? That he didn't feel like speaking to the media and dealing with the issue of not renewing his OC's contract? Maybe Rooney tried to take the heat off his HC who had to deal with family issues.

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2012/03/27/exclusive-mike-tomlin-on-todd-haley-more/

“I’ll start by saying Art Rooney owns the football team so obviously he has the autonomy to do what he wants,” Tomlin said. “But some of those reports that were reported regarding the changes are just quite simply untrue. I made the decision to make the change from an offensive coordinator standpoint. I made the decision to hire Todd Haley."

It's amazing the speculation that goes on around here yet people disregard direct quotes from the interested and involved parties and then ask others to explain some ridiculous theories that have little basis in fact. Man, you guys have been grasping this Steelers/Arians thing too tight. Let it go......your fingers are starting to bleed.

[Bluestang]

And what does that prove? Maybe Tomlin wasn't around. Could it be that he was in Florida burying his father who had passed away that week and wasn't available? That he didn't feel like speaking to the media and dealing with the issue of not renewing his OC's contract? Maybe Rooney tried to take the heat off his HC who had to deal with family issues.

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2012/03/27/exclusive-mike-tomlin-on-todd-haley-more/

“I’ll start by saying Art Rooney owns the football team so obviously he has the autonomy to do what he wants,” Tomlin said. “But some of those reports that were reported regarding the changes are just quite simply untrue. I made the decision to make the change from an offensive coordinator standpoint. I made the decision to hire Todd Haley."

It's amazing the speculation that goes on around here yet people disregard direct quotes from the interested and involved parties and then ask others to explain some ridiculous theories that have little basis in fact. Man, you guys have been grasping this Steelers/Arians thing too tight. Let it go......your fingers are starting to bleed.



This is the situation in chronological order:

Mike Tomlin announces that Bruce Arians is retiring from coaching.

Bruce Arians speaks to the media and says he is not retiring and that he is looking for work because he has spoken to other teams already. Arians said he was forced to retire from the position because he was not offered another contract. At the same time he also mentions that he was not given a reason for his dismmissal from Art Rooney.

Much to the eye browing of the Steeler Nation, Art Rooney is asked point blank about the dismissal but dances around the question with general answers. At this point if it was Tomlin's decision, he had every opportunity to say it was all Tomlin's decision to move on from Arians but doesn't.

A few days later Big Ben says that he will meet with Art Rooney to discuss the direction of the offense.

Todd Haley is hired as the OC and then Tomlin talks with the media to try and clarify the events that happened.



Whatever sides of the fence you guys are on about this, it is clear that it was handled in the wrong way. I have good friend that is a diehard Steeler fan and he believes that Rooney interfered and made a complete mess of the situation. He also felt that if the QB of the franchise felt it necessary to publicly comment that he was going to see the owner, and not the head coach, that something wasn't right from the situation.

[Doomsay]

I liked the fact that Stephen got a degree in engineering and that he attended Sloan. At least he seems to have a couple of brain cells to rub together, and he's not just some rich salesman/con-artist or former dumb jock trying to relive his glory years on the college football team.

I think that he's better than Jerry (even though Jerry still exercises last say). Did he actually get into Sloan, or just attend some executive continuing education courses? I did see that he was a panel member on a Sloan sponsored sport biz conference.

[Hostile]

I'm still going to point to the articles in January where Art Rooney was the only one quoted by the media and there are plenty to go around.

No one still has answered why Tomlin wasn't the first person to address the media on the firing of Bruce Arians, err should I say "retirement".Here's the thing. They are wrong. They're never going to admit they are wrong, so instead they try and change the story a bit.

Arians' contract with Pittsburgh was up after 2011. So reporters began asking if he would be back. That is what they should do. Tomlin always answered "yes." This fact will be totally ignored.

On January 20th, 2012 Art Rooney II, (not Tomlin or Colbert) announced Bruce Arians' "retirement." After this event, not before, Tomlin wanted Todd Haley. Please note that Haley was not named OC until February 7, 2012. In other words, they want you to believe Tomlin coveted him so much that he was indeed the pivotal person in Arians' "retirement." They will not be able to explain why it took 19 days. The article says Tomlin wanted Haley, and he did. But it took him over 2 weeks to decide that he did. Haley was fired at the end of the 2011 season, so it is not like they were waiting for the Chiefs to move before they did. The hiring of Todd Haley would not have happened if it were entirely up to Mike Tomlin because nowhere can they show you that he wanted Arians gone. They can't do it.

The fact remains, Art Rooney II announced the "retirement" of Bruce Arians after Tomlin had told reporters Arians would be back. The fact remains Arians is not "retired." The "retirement" is highly significant evidence in this case because no one simply can make that strange circumstance go away. The fact remains neither Kevin Colbert nor Mike Tomlin were involved in that "retirement."

What they would have you believe is that Tomlin always wanted Haley and this was all part of his plan.

19 days later, it was his plan. That gap is dwarfed only by the holes in their evidence.

[Hostile]

This is the situation in chronological order:

Mike Tomlin announces that Bruce Arians is retiring from coaching.

Bruce Arians speaks to the media and says he is not retiring and that he is looking for work because he has spoken to other teams already. Arians said he was forced to retire from the position because he was not offered another contract. At the same time he also mentions that he was not given a reason for his dismmissal from Art Rooney.

Much to the eye browing of the Steeler Nation, Art Rooney is asked point blank about the dismissal but dances around the question with general answers. At this point if it was Tomlin's decision, he had every opportunity to say it was all Tomlin's decision to move on from Arians but doesn't.

A few days later Big Ben says that he will meet with Art Rooney to discuss the direction of the offense.

Todd Haley is hired as the OC and then Tomlin talks with the media to try and clarify the events that happened.



Whatever sides of the fence you guys are on about this, it is clear that it was handled in the wrong way. I have good friend that is a diehard Steeler fan and he believes that Rooney interfered and made a complete mess of the situation. He also felt that if the QB of the franchise felt it necessary to publicly comment that he was going to see the owner, and not the head coach, that something wasn't right from the situation.Actually, that was Art Rooney II.

[junk]

Here's the thing. They are wrong. They're never going to admit they are wrong, so instead they try and change the story a bit.

Funny.....let's look who is changing the story.


Arians' contract with Pittsburgh was up after 2011. So reporters began asking if he would be back. That is what they should do. Tomlin always answered "yes." This fact will be totally ignored.

Tell you what, I won't ignore it. He did not emphatically said yes. That is factually incorrect. This was on January 9th prior to any comments from Rooney.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/01/mike-tomlin-anticipates-dick-lebeau-bruce-arians-returning-in-2012-as-of-right-now/

http://test.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/steelers/114297-mike-tomlin-transcript-from-season-ending-news-conference


On whether coordinators Bruce Arians and Dick LeBeau will return next season: "I anticipate it, but of course, we all understand what the end of the season is about. Movement is apart of it in today's NFL. We're going to work to maintain continuity as we always do. We believe that's a benefit to us. But we also understand things happen and we'll deal with those tings as they arise."




On January 20th, 2012 Art Rooney II, (not Tomlin or Colbert) announced Bruce Arians' "retirement." After this event, not before, Tomlin wanted Todd Haley. Please note that Haley was not named OC until February 7, 2012. In other words, they want you to believe Tomlin coveted him so much that he was indeed the pivotal person in Arians' "retirement." They will not be able to explain why it took 19 days. The article says Tomlin wanted Haley, and he did. But it took him over 2 weeks to decide that he did. Haley was fired at the end of the 2011 season, so it is not like they were waiting for the Chiefs to move before they did. The hiring of Todd Haley would not have happened if it were entirely up to Mike Tomlin because nowhere can they show you that he wanted Arians gone. They can't do it.


Sure, Tomlin said it was his decision. And no where can you say Rooney was the one that pushed Arians out.

On one hand, we have a coach that was non-committal at the end of the season (as any intelligent person would be while things are being assessed) and later said it was his decision.

Or, we have the Cowboyszone version of events where Rooney announced it and somehow that is proof it was forced on Tomlin despite a non-committal response from Tomlin at the end of the year and assurances from Tomlin it was his decision.


The fact remains, Art Rooney II announced the "retirement" of Bruce Arians after Tomlin had told reporters Arians would be back. The fact remains Arians is not "retired." The "retirement" is highly significant evidence in this case because no one simply can make that strange circumstance go away. The fact remains neither Kevin Colbert nor Mike Tomlin were involved in that "retirement."

Nope. Wrong again. Tomlin did not definitively say Arians would be back. He said he thought so, but things change....and they did.


What they would have you believe is that Tomlin always wanted Haley and this was all part of his plan.

19 days later, it was his plan. That gap is dwarfed only by the holes in their evidence.
Nope, wrong again. Tomlin wanted a change and was hedging his bets as early as Jan. 9 that he might make a change.

You're big on proof all of a sudden. Show us proof the decision was not Tomlin's. All you've provided is speculation and a distortion of what Tomlin said in his original press conference.

[Bluestang]

Any particular reason why Big Ben told the media he was going to talk to Art Rooney about the direction of the offense?

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/01/ben-roethlisberger-wants-answers-from-art-rooney-ii-damn-it/

[Dodger12]

Any particular reason why Big Ben told the media he was going to talk to Art Rooney about the direction of the offense?

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/01/ben-roethlisberger-wants-answers-from-art-rooney-ii-damn-it/

Any reason the HC said he didn't care what Big Ben thought?

[Bluestang]

Any reason the HC said he didn't care what Big Ben thought?

Good job avoiding the question.

[Dodger12]

Good job avoiding the question.

There's no avoiding anything. Everything's been put out there in black and white. The owner has been quoted; the HC has been quoted; links have been provided. You want me to make another assumption based on your assumption and it's pointless. If the spoken words of the principle people involved don't prove anything to you or Hos, then nothing I say will.

[junk]

There's no avoiding anything. Everything's been put out there in black and white. The owner has been quoted; the HC has been quoted; links have been provided. You want me to make another assumption based on your assumption and it's pointless. If the spoken words of the principle people involved don't prove anything to you or Hos, then nothing I say will.

Vindication!

Despite quoted proof from all primary parties, you cannot disprove random speculation.

Therefore, proof has been provided.

On to the next topic......when Mark Felt said "I'm the guy they used to call Deep Throat." do you think he might have meant that Deep Throat was really Fred Fielding?

[Hostile]

There's no avoiding anything. Everything's been put out there in black and white. The owner has been quoted; the HC has been quoted; links have been provided. You want me to make another assumption based on your assumption and it's pointless. If the spoken words of the principle people involved don't prove anything to you or Hos, then nothing I say will.So what you are saying is if Bruce Arians is asked he will validate that Mike Tomlin did not want him back, he was going to retire and then changed his mind? I guarantee you that will not happen. He may clam up and say nothing, but he was completely caught off guard by all of this and he has never pointed a finger at Tomlin. Wonder why?

Stang's question is valid. Why wasn't Pig Pen Ruthlessraper going to talk to Tomlin about the direction of the Offense? Why wasn't he going to talk to Colbert about it? Instead he was going to go right to Rooney. Why?

Easy answer, because getting rid of Arians was Rooney's call since his contract was up. They can spin control it any way they want to, but the fact of the matter remains it was Rooney who announced a retirement that never happened. It was Tomlin who was asked by reporters if Arians would be coming back and he responded that he hoped so. Of course he could not say yes for 100% certain because...wait for it...no contract in place.

I have already conceded that Tomlin wanted Haley. That was never in question. The part in question is the dismissal of Arians and no amount of spin control and no amount of links to articles is going to change that.

19 days in between the execution of these plans and an 8 day retirement. Arians was working again before his job in Pittsburgh was filled. Speaks volumes to anyone paying attention.

[Dodger12]

Vindication!

Despite quoted proof from all primary parties, you cannot disprove random speculation.

Therefore, proof has been provided.

On to the next topic......when Mark Felt said "I'm the guy they used to call Deep Throat." do you think he might have meant that Deep Throat was really Fred Fielding?

I truly believe it's hope and wishful thinking. It's the only thing that explains stuff like this where people can believe Jerry is the GM in title only. That TC is the real GM (without the title). That TC and Paoli have the same roles and responsibilities. That JG's dad was a scout so JG must be good at it thanks to some mysterious osmosis.

It's the reason we often refer back to the 90's and start countless threads about legendary Cowboys. It makes us feel good, reminds us of what we once were and gives us "hope" for the future. It's also the reason Jerry gets a pass from so many fans as we're coming up on almost two decades worth of futility. Jerry loves them all the way to the bank.

Me, I'm a bit more cynical. For example, I like Claiborne and hope he'll be a stud but sometimes I think Jerry slept a whole lot better the night after day 1 of the draft because he knew he'd sell more Claiborne jerseys than DeCastro jerseys. When you're owner is also the GM, you can't count out the possibility that some consideration was given to the business side of the pick when deciding to trade up. Oh well, I never believed Mark Felt anyway.....:D :D

[Bluestang]

Me, I'm a bit more cynical. For example, I like Claiborne and hope he'll be a stud but sometimes I think Jerry slept a whole lot better the night after day 1 of the draft because he knew he'd sell more Claiborne jerseys than DeCastro jerseys. When you're owner is also the GM, you can't count out the possibility that some consideration was given to the business side of the pick when deciding to trade up. Oh well, I never believed Mark Felt anyway.....:D :D


And you accuse me for grasping at straws?

[Risen Star]

I truly believe it's hope and wishful thinking. It's the only thing that explains stuff like this where people can believe Jerry is the GM in title only. That TC is the real GM (without the title). That TC and Paoli have the same roles and responsibilities. That JG's dad was a scout so JG must be good at it thanks to some mysterious osmosis.

It's the reason we often refer back to the 90's and start countless threads about legendary Cowboys. It makes us feel good, reminds us of what we once were and gives us "hope" for the future. It's also the reason Jerry gets a pass from so many fans as we're coming up on almost two decades worth of futility. Jerry loves them all the way to the bank.

Me, I'm a bit more cynical. For example, I like Claiborne and hope he'll be a stud but sometimes I think Jerry slept a whole lot better the night after day 1 of the draft because he knew he'd sell more Claiborne jerseys than DeCastro jerseys. When you're owner is also the GM, you can't count out the possibility that some consideration was given to the business side of the pick when deciding to trade up. Oh well, I never believed Mark Felt anyway.....:D :D

I don't believe we make draft picks based on potential jersey sales. I don't even think that's part of the equation.

The Ciskowski stuff is nonsense. If you are capable of trying to sell us that, you will say absolutely anything to defend this team. The guy is the assistant director of personnel and nothing more than that.

[Dodger12]

So what yo are saying is if Bruce Arians is asked he will validate that Mike Tomlin did not want him back, he was going to retire and then changed his mind? I guarantee you that will not happen. He may clam up and say nothing, but he was completely caught off guard by all of this and he has never pointed a finger at Tomlin. Wonder why?.

I’m not saying that at all. What I am saying is that Tomlin decided to not bring him back. The owner said it was the HC’s decision and the HC has publicly stated that the stories of Rooney firing Arians are simply not true.

Stang's question is valid. Why wasn't Pig Pen Ruthlessraper going to talk to Tomlin about the direction of the Offense? Why wasn't he going to talk to Colbert about it? Instead he was going to go right to Rooney. Why?.

No one (at least not me) doubts that Rooney (or any owner) is at the top of the food chain. Personally, I don’t agree with a star player going to the owner. But Tomlin said he didn’t care what Rothlisraper thought and he doesn’t take it into consideration. So why then would would Ben go to Tomlinson knowing that he wouldn‘t get an audience on the issue?

Easy answer, because getting rid of Arians was Rooney's call since his contract was up. They can spin control it any way they want to, but the fact of the matter remains it was Rooney who announced a retirement that never happened. It was Tomlin who was asked by reporters if Arians would be coming back and he responded that he hoped so. Of course he could not say yes for 100% certain because...wait for it...no contract in place..

You do a lot of speculating then call it an "easy" answer, yet giving any validity to direct quotes is not so easy.

I have already conceded that Tomlin wanted Haley. That was never in question. The part in question is the dismissal of Arians and no amount of spin control and no amount of links to articles is going to change that. .

Tomlin telephonically interviewed several candidates and narrowed the field down to two who then came in for an interview. And if you concede that Tomlin wanted Haley, then maybe it was his plan all along to make the change. Why is that so hard to believe?

19 days in between the execution of these plans and an 8 day retirement. Arians was working again before his job in Pittsburgh was filled. Speaks volumes to anyone paying attention.

Let me ask you this. If what you believe is true, then why go the “retirement” route? Why use that excuse? What did the organization have to gain? Why not just say they didn’t want him back? Could it be that they didn’t want to publicly announce that they weren’t happy with Arians and make his prospects of finding another job more difficult?

Again, we can speculate all day but I just find it odd that you give no credence whatsoever to the words of the parties involved.

[Dodger12]

And you accuse me for grasping at straws?

I said I was cynical. The ":D" at the end is an indication of that the statement is made in some jest, although I don't completely discount it and it does cross my mind.

But I will say that the owner/GM/figurehead has to earn my trust. He had it when he brought in BP and the organization started to go in the right direction. It started to deteriorate when he brought in a figurehead HC/glorified DC. I'm holding out hope for JG.

[Dodger12]

I don't believe we make draft picks based on potential jersey sales. I don't even think that's part of the equation.

You're being too kind. If you're not careful, you may lose your "hater" tag.

[junk]

On January 20th, 2012 Art Rooney II, (not Tomlin or Colbert) announced Bruce Arians' "retirement."

Actually the press release on January 2012 contained a quote from Mike Tomlin, not Art Rooney.

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/ae/uncategorized/steelers-arians-retires-from-coaching-218363/


"Bruce Arians has informed me that he will retire from coaching," Coach Mike Tomlin said in a statement issued today by the Steelers.

"I appreciate his efforts over the past five years as the team's offensive coordinator and for helping lead our offense to new heights during his time with the Steelers," Tomlin said. "I am grateful to Bruce for contributing to our success and wish him nothing but the best in his retirement."


Kevin Colbert also confirmed it was Tomlin's decision.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/02/steelers-gm-kevin-colbert-says-hire-of-todd-haley-was-sole-decision-of-mike-tomlin/


The fact remains, Art Rooney II announced the "retirement" of Bruce Arians after Tomlin had told reporters Arians would be back. The fact remains Arians is not "retired." The "retirement" is highly significant evidence in this case because no one simply can make that strange circumstance go away. The fact remains neither Kevin Colbert nor Mike Tomlin were involved in that "retirement."

.
Again, not true. Rooney didn't announce it. It was a press release with a quote from Tomlin.

[Bluestang]

So if Big Ben gets the freedom to go and talk to the owner about the direction of the offense and Mike Tomlin doesn't care whatsoever then what kind of message does that send to other players on the team?

[Bluestang]

I said I was cynical. The ":D" at the end is an indication of that the statement is made in some jest, although I don't completely discount it and it does cross my mind.

But I will say that the owner/GM/figurehead has to earn my trust. He had it when he brought in BP and the organization started to go in the right direction. It started to deteriorate when he brought in a figurehead HC/glorified DC. I'm holding out hope for JG.


I think JG is off to a good start so far. I just hope that JJ can be patient enough with him.

[Dodger12]

So if Big Ben gets the freedom to go and talk to the owner about the direction of the offense and Mike Tomlin doesn't care whatsoever then what kind of message does that send to other players on the team?

If you have to misquote and purposely misinterpret someone's comments, then you really don't have much of a point or a leg to stand on.

[Dodger12]

I think JG is off to a good start so far. I just hope that JJ can be patient enough with him.

I'm glad JG got the job and I'm elated that Wade is no longer around. I like the type of player JG is looking for and my only problem is with the wasted years under Wade while we had Romo in his prime. I actually think JG's biggest challenge is ahead of him and that's seeing if he can find and develop a QB.

[Bluestang]

If you have to misquote and purposely misinterpret someone's comments, then you really don't have much of a point or a leg to stand on.


What did I misquote or misinterpret?

[Dodger12]

What did I misquote or misinterpret?

It sounded like you were inferring that Tomlin gave his QB the "freedom" to go to the owner and the HC didn't care whatsoever.

Tomlin stated that he basically didn't care what Ben's thoughts were on the matter and that his thoughts wouldn't be taken into consideration when making coaching decisions.

[Bluestang]

It sounded like you were inferring that Tomlin gave his QB the "freedom" to go to the owner and the HC didn't care whatsoever.

Tomlin stated that he basically didn't care what Ben's thoughts were on the matter and that his thoughts wouldn't be taken into consideration when making coaching decisions.


What I'm saying is that where does Big Ben get the notion in his head to go talk to the owner directly rather than the head coach?

Tomlin saying that he doesn't care is coach speak to the media but he should be concerned that a player would sidestep him and go to the owner directly.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

There's no avoiding anything. Everything's been put out there in black and white. The owner has been quoted; the HC has been quoted; links have been provided. You want me to make another assumption based on your assumption and it's pointless. If the spoken words of the principle people involved don't prove anything to you or Hos, then nothing I say will.

A more forceful evasion but you avoiding the question once again.

Do you acknowledge that their starting QB went above the HC to the owner to discuss the future of the offense?

Is this factual or not? If you evade the question then we can assume that you think its factual.

I also have no idea why their is not more discussion of who said what first. Tomlin revisiting history at the owners meetings is fun but i am talking about the heat of the moment.

[Hostile]

I’m not saying that at all. What I am saying is that Tomlin decided to not bring him back. The owner said it was the HC’s decision and the HC has publicly stated that the stories of Rooney firing Arians are simply not true.Okay, so insinuating it but not saying it.

Nice crutch.

No one (at least not me) doubts that Rooney (or any owner) is at the top of the food chain. Personally, I don’t agree with a star player going to the owner. But Tomlin said he didn’t care what Rothlisraper thought and he doesn’t take it into consideration. So why then would would Ben go to Tomlinson knowing that he wouldn‘t get an audience on the issue?Because Ben convincing Tomlin wasn't going to change anything. he had to convince the man who pulled the trigger.

You do a lot of speculating then call it an "easy" answer, yet giving any validity to direct quotes is not so easy.What speculation? Tomlin was asked if Arians was coming back. Do you deny this? His answer was he hoped so. Do you deny this? Rooney announced the "retirement." Do you deny this?

There's no speculation here. That is cut and dried.

Tomlin telephonically interviewed several candidates and narrowed the field down to two who then came in for an interview. And if you concede that Tomlin wanted Haley, then maybe it was his plan all along to make the change. Why is that so hard to believe?I am wondering why it is so easy for you to believe? Are you that impressed with the Pittsburgh Steelers that you give them benefit of the doubt on every story? I don't and won't.

Please note, I don't find any of this strange. I believe this happens at the NFL across the NFL. You guys are the ones who think these things only happen in Dallas and that is why you are desperately defending the Pittsburgh Steelers and the Rooney family honor. I find it hilarious.

Let me ask you this. If what you believe is true, then why go the “retirement” route? Why use that excuse? What did the organization have to gain? Why not just say they didn’t want him back? Could it be that they didn’t want to publicly announce that they weren’t happy with Arians and make his prospects of finding another job more difficult?You tell me. I'm not defending the Steelers, you are.

Again, we can speculate all day but I just find it odd that you give no credence whatsoever to the words of the parties involved.On the contrary, I give absolute credence to Tomlin saying he was bringing Arians Back, Arians saying he was told he was coming back, and Rooney saying Arians was "retired."

[Dodger12]

A more forceful evasion but you avoiding the question once again.

Do you acknowledge that their starting QB went above the HC to the owner to discuss the future of the offense?

Is this factual or not? If you evade the question then we can assume that you think its factual.

I also have no idea why their is not more discussion of who said what first. Tomlin revisiting history at the owners meetings is fun but i am talking about the heat of the moment.

Did you read the link/article?

[Dodger12]

What I'm saying is that where does Big Ben get the notion in his head to go talk to the owner directly rather than the head coach?


Blue, if you read the article in it's entirety, you'd see where he got the notion.

[junk]

What speculation? Tomlin was asked if Arians was coming back. Do you deny this? His answer was he hoped so. Do you deny this? Rooney announced the "retirement." Do you deny this?


Yes. I already posted this. I'll do it again.

the press release on January 2012 contained a quote from Mike Tomlin, not Art Rooney.

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...aching-218363/


"Bruce Arians has informed me that he will retire from coaching," Coach Mike Tomlin said in a statement issued today by the Steelers.

"I appreciate his efforts over the past five years as the team's offensive coordinator and for helping lead our offense to new heights during his time with the Steelers," Tomlin said. "I am grateful to Bruce for contributing to our success and wish him nothing but the best in his retirement."



There's no speculation here. That is cut and dried.

Yes, cut and dried, but not in the way you are trying to sell it. This thread has been littered with incorrect information from you. Post after post of it....and you continue to repeat it.



On the contrary, I give absolute credence to Tomlin saying he was bringing Arians Back, Arians saying he was told he was coming back, and Rooney saying Arians was "retired."

So, you believe the scenario that everyone associated with the team said isn't true based upon "facts" that you are apparently making up. Arians didn't announce it, Tomlin did. Colbert, Tomlin AND Rooney said it was Tomlin's decision. Tomlin publicly left the door open to change right after the season.....he did not say "Yes" when asked if Arians was coming back.

Whiff after whiff.....for what? To look silly and cling to this desperate belief that the Dallas dysfunction happens all across the league?

[Dodger12]

Okay, so insinuating it but not saying it.

Nice crutch.

You’re a trip. YOU asked me what Arians would say and I have no idea so I don’t know what crutch you’re referring to. And please show me where I’m insinuating anything. You also stated that Arians was caught off guard. That’s news to Big Ben in the link posted.

“I think the (Steeelers‘) mind was made up and BA was kind of ready to move on as well”

You guys only cherry pick what suits you and disregard everything else. Lame…….

Because Ben convincing Tomlin wasn't going to change anything. he had to convince the man who pulled the trigger.

Or maybe the QB wanted to ask the owner to clarify the comments the owner made about the QB needing to “tweak” his game but you wouldn‘t know that because you didn’t read the article; you just assumed you knew what was in it.

You see, you can’t even give anyone one shred of evidence to back up your theory. You keep rewording and repeating the same thing over and over again.

What speculation? Tomlin was asked if Arians was coming back. Do you deny this? His answer was he hoped so. Do you deny this? Rooney announced the "retirement." Do you deny this?

You were corrected on this point by another poster. You making the same claim again and continuing to misinterpret and misquote the whole statement doesn’t make it any more right now than it did then.

I am wondering why it is so easy for you to believe? Are you that impressed with the Pittsburgh Steelers that you give them benefit of the doubt on every story? I don't and won't.

I don’t give a damn about the Steelers. Never have and never will. YOU, not me, continue to bring them up as some sort of vindication and/or validation of your views. You may very well have been initially right but when the “facts” were reported and the HC and owner went on record, you could have gracefully backed away but you didn’t no matter if the quotes from all the parties involved proved you wrong.

Please note, I don't find any of this strange. I believe this happens at the NFL across the NFL. You guys are the ones who think these things only happen in Dallas and that is why you are desperately defending the Pittsburgh Steelers and the Rooney family honor. I find it hilarious.

Ahhhhh, now we get to the crux of the argument. It’s laughable that you think I’m desperately defending the honor of the Rooney family. Again, you continue to bring them up in your attempt to defend Jerry.

You tell me. I'm not defending the Steelers, you are.

Please show me where I’ve defended the Steelers. Again, I couldn’t give a damn and I think Rooney II is a backhanded ******bag. But I do find it strange that everyone else has to entertain your hypothetical BS but you can’t answer a very valid question. Why the “retirement” route? Why not just state that Arians’ contract would not be renewed and he was, in essence, fired? That’s a real strange way to handle the situation.

On the contrary, I give absolute credence to Tomlin saying he was bringing Arians Back, Arians saying he was told he was coming back, and Rooney saying Arians was "retired."

You can continue to cherry pick all you want and it still won’t make it accurate. And I wonder where Rothlisraper got the idea that Arians was ready to move on if Arians really thought he was coming back……….?

[Bluestang]

Blue, if you read the article in it's entirety, you'd see where he got the notion.


I read that part but for a "hands off" owner to publicly comment that his franchise QB needs to "tweak" his game is out of the norm.

Alot of this should have been handled internally but Big Ben was caught off guard with the firing of Bruce Arians and his owner making comments about his play.

And now you have Big Ben talking this nonsense:
"Roethlisberger said on the Rich Eisen Podcast (http://richeisen.nfl.com/2012/05/08/rich-eisen-podcast-ben-roethlisberger-and-larry-fitzgerald/) that he hears others saying that Haley will turn the Steelers into a smash-mouth offense, or that Haley will rein Roethlisberger in. But Roethlisberger says that when he talks to Haley he doesn’t hear those things.
“I get a little confused at times because I know so much has been made about us quote-unquote throwing the ball too much, or we’re going back to Steeler football and running the ball more,” Roethlisberger said. “But in these meetings I’ve had with coach Haley he’s all about the no-huddle, and using our wide receiver weapons, and throwing the ball, and stuff like that, so I’m still confused. I’m not sure what’s going to happen yet.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/09/roethlisberger-still-confused-how-haley-will-change-steelers-offense/

[Hostile]

You were corrected on this point by another poster. You making the same claim again and continuing to misinterpret and misquote the whole statement doesn’t make it any more right now than it did then.I have informed that poster that I was done discussing anything with him and I don't read his posts, so all of his time spent in replies is wasting his time, but not mine. If you doubt this go back several days and you will see that he continues to ask me stuff and I don't respond. I've attempted in the past via PMs to be civil with him and it is impossible so I moved on. Eventually he will realize I was serious. Until then he will continue this tactic and waste his time.

I don't believe I have misinterpreted anything at all. I watched that whole situation arise and I have watched the spin control since it did. If you, he, or anyone else buy that spin control that is your business.

I don’t give a damn about the Steelers. Never have and never will. YOU, not me, continue to bring them up as some sort of vindication and/or validation of your views. You may very well have been initially right but when the “facts” were reported and the HC and owner went on record, you could have gracefully backed away but you didn’t no matter if the quotes from all the parties involved proved you wrong.I like that you put "facts" in quotes like that because that is exactly how I see this stuff. The quotes from the parties involved are after the fact trying to calm the storm. You know, the same storms that arise everywhere.

These things do validate my views. If you can't see it, then that is not my problem.

Ahhhhh, now we get to the crux of the argument. It’s laughable that you think I’m desperately defending the honor of the Rooney family. Again, you continue to bring them up in your attempt to defend Jerry.It isn't defending Jerry. I haven't said Jerry is right or the Rooney's are wrong. I simply have maintained that owners get deeply involved in football matters and for YEARS the example thrown back in my face has been that the Rooneys do not.

Oops.

Please show me where I’ve defended the Steelers. Again, I couldn’t give a damn and I think Rooney II is a backhanded ******bag. But I do find it strange that everyone else has to entertain your hypothetical BS but you can’t answer a very valid question. Why the “retirement” route? Why not just state that Arians’ contract would not be renewed and he was, in essence, fired? That’s a real strange way to handle the situation.You're the one who needs to answer why the Steelers, in particular Art Rooney II, announced he was retired then, because that totally refutes the point you are trying to make. It undermines your entire stance.

The fact of the matter is no amount of spin control by Colbert, Tomlin, or Rooney in the wake of the announcement he was "retiring" is going to hold water when he in fact did not "retire."

You can continue to cherry pick all you want and it still won’t make it accurate. And I wonder where Rothlisraper got the idea that Arians was ready to move on if Arians really thought he was coming back……….?Talk about a cherry pick. Here (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/24/arians-doesnt-know-why-steelers-let-him-go-says-ben-is-unhappy/) is an article before all the spin control by the Steelers, who hell yes you are defending.

Let's see some high notes that destroy the theory this was all mutual.

Former Steelers offensive coordinator Bruce Arians has confirmed that the “retirement” the team announced last week (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/20/steelers-offensive-coordinator-bruce-arians-retires/) was actually a departure forced by the team (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/21/arians-departure-a-shell-game-of-semantics/). And he says Ben Roethlisberger is not pleased.Oh look, they put "retirement" in quotes too. They must find it as ironic as I do that he didn't "retire."

Take a real good look at that second link about a forced departure and you find this.

Gerry Dulac of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette explains that coach Mike Tomlin had told Arians on multiple occasions that Tomlin wanted Arians to return in 2012 (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/12021/1205041-66-0.stm), and that Arians had told others he had planned to be back.Reading further we find this.

If Tomlin was indeed trumped, it’s at least the second time this year that a Tomlin decision was vetoed by someone else in the organization. Tomlin, as others have reported and as PFT has learned, led running back Tiki Barber to believe that the Steelers would sign him — and Tomlin ultimately was prevented from doing so.I don't know if Colbert or Rooney II trumped him on that but I consider it a good move that he should thank them for.

Back to the original article and more caustic points for your stance.

It says RuthlessRaper is not pleased. Why is he not pleased? You seem to be saying he was all hunky dory with the decision because Arians ready to move on. Well, for the real answer we can look inside that article, but the better remedy is once again at the 2nd link again about forced departure and we find this nugget.

Roethlisberger’s discontent also could arise at least in part from the fact that, unlike two years ago (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/01/07/report-roethlisberger-saved-arians/), he was unable to save Arians’ job.Unable to SAVE his job. Save it. As in rescue.

According to the first article Rooney did not offer him a contract and "wouldn't tell him why." So, why would he not explain to the man that Tomlin didn't want him back as you maintain? Probably because as already proven and linked above, Tomlin did want him back.

Remember, Tomlin had the rug pulled out from under him here and it took him 19 days to find his contingency plan at OC. Arians was already working for the Colts by then. Coaches who have other ideas in mind don't need 19 days to figure out the new direction they want to go.

So now we're back to this departure was between Rooney and Arians. I don't see how that can be refuted.

Arians says Steelers owner Art Rooney II didn’t offer him a contract for the 2012 season and wouldn’t tell him why.Later, we learned why. Rooney made it clear he wanted to return to the Steelers running roots not passing as they had under Arians. He felt Arians could not deliver on that, so he did not offer him a contract despite the fact that Tomlin wanted him back.

So let's review. Season ends. Reporters want to know if Arians will be back. Arians and Tomlin think so. Whoops! Rooney doesn't offer a contract, so he won't be back. What will he do? Rooney, not Arians, not Colbert, and not Tomlin announces that the man is going to "retire." Why is he going to do this when he clearly has wondered why he is not being offered a contract? That sounds like "retirement" to you? Seeeking a contract? It doesn't to me. In fact it was not, as evidenced by the fact he was back to work in 8 days as the OC for a man he used to face as DC with the Ravens. There's a bit of irony for ya.

From that point the Steelers went into spin mode and you buy the spin. But the stuff I am posting was happening as things went down. You hear it from Arians' mouth. You don't trust Rooney, yet you back his version. This is why you are in fact defending the Steelers. Bruce Arians is a Colt. I am going to take his word on this. I don't see the he was ready to move on evidence at all. He was forced out. It plainly says, not offered a contract, forced departure.

You can either continue to ignore that or you can open your eyes. I can't open them for you, but is as plain as the stubble on our faces when we shave in the morning man.

[junk]

:laugh1:

Dodger, feel free to re-post anything I dug up that Hostile isn't "reading", but seems to know all about.

I'd like to make sure he is corrected on his plethora of incorrect information in this thread.

As far as the comments about being civil.....laughable. In the past, the guy has taken any chance he get (via PM or on the board) to imply I'm dumb.

Well played by him though. He made a bold proclamation on the board, locked the thread before anyone could reply and then got bent out of shape when called on it via PM. Since he chickened out, I guess questioning my civility and "ignoring" me is a means to save face.

Whatever gets him through the day, I guess.

[Bluestang]

Anyone care to comment on Big Ben's latest comments to the media on Todd Haley's offense?

Link at post #215.

[Hostile]

Anyone care to comment on Big Ben's latest comments to the media on Todd Haley's offense?

Link at post #215.Yes, I will say that it is eye opening at the very least. Sure doesn't align with the apparently accepted versions of what really went down.

I still don't understand the need to defend the Steelers. I find that really funny.

[junk]

Anyone care to comment on Big Ben's latest comments to the media on Todd Haley's offense?

Link at post #215.

Roethlisberger never struck me as the sharpest knife in the drawer, so the fact that he is confused doesn't really surprise me.

Otherwise, I'm not sure how it relates to the discussion.

The whole Rooney-Arians thing has been held up as some sort of Holy Grail for those trying to justify Jerry's meddling.

That has been shot down time and time again in this thread in spite of attempts to justify it with blatantly incorrect information and wild speculation.

[Bluestang]

Roethlisberger never struck me as the sharpest knife in the drawer, so the fact that he is confused doesn't really surprise me.

Otherwise, I'm not sure how it relates to the discussion.

The whole Rooney-Arians thing has been held up as some sort of Holy Grail for those trying to justify Jerry's meddling.

That has been shot down time and time again in this thread in spite of attempts to justify it with blatantly incorrect information and wild speculation.


Please remind why Bruce Arians was fired and what Art Rooney told the media that the Steelers needed to do?

[junk]

Please remind why Bruce Arians was fired and what Art Rooney told the media that the Steelers needed to do?

Bruce Arians was fired because Tomlin wanted to go another direction.

Rooney supposedly wanted to go back to smash mouth football, but who cares what Rooney said or wanted? He isn't the coach.

If anything, that article hurts your argument that this was driven by Rooney since, according to Roethlisberger, Haley is implementing something that is a contradiction to what the owner wanted.

[Bluestang]

Bruce Arians was fired because Tomlin wanted to go another direction.

Rooney supposedly wanted to go back to smash mouth football, but who cares what Rooney said or wanted? He isn't the coach.

If anything, that article hurts your argument that this was driven by Rooney since, according to Roethlisberger, Haley is implementing something that is a contradiction to what the owner wanted.


This is all I'm going to say because you refuse to acknowledge Big Ben's comments:

o4m4wbYc08k

[Hostile]

Please remind why Bruce Arians was fired and what Art Rooney told the media that the Steelers needed to do?Ooh, ooh, ooh Mr. Kotter. Mr. Kotter.

[/URL]http://cdn.new.buzznet.com/assets/imgx/1/1/1/8/7/7/0/1/orig-11187701.jpg (http://cdn.new.buzznet.com/assets/imgx/1/1/1/8/7/7/0/1/orig-11187701.jpg)

Art Rooney II wanted the Steelers to return to their :a-team: roots.

He wanted to move away from the

[URL="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9NzKffXkQPU/TrsgvnWpTII/AAAAAAAAAOE/-dzn3x3xVbw/s1600/pass.jpg"]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9NzKffXkQPU/TrsgvnWpTII/AAAAAAAAAOE/-dzn3x3xVbw/s1600/pass.jpg (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9NzKffXkQPU/TrsgvnWpTII/AAAAAAAAAOE/-dzn3x3xVbw/s1600/pass.jpg)

And now Pig Pen Ruthlessraper is confused because they are working on passing almost exclusively under Todd Haley, even though Haley did run the ball in Kansas City.

Basically it's a big ole http://www.livefoods.co.uk/images/scanocrix.jpg (http://www.livefoods.co.uk/images/scanocrix.jpg)

[CCBoy]

Ooh, ooh, ooh Mr. Kotter. Mr. Kotter.

[/URL]http://cdn.new.buzznet.com/assets/imgx/1/1/1/8/7/7/0/1/orig-11187701.jpg (http://cdn.new.buzznet.com/assets/imgx/1/1/1/8/7/7/0/1/orig-11187701.jpg)

Art Rooney II wanted the Steelers to return to their :a-team: roots.

He wanted to move away from the

[URL="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9NzKffXkQPU/TrsgvnWpTII/AAAAAAAAAOE/-dzn3x3xVbw/s1600/pass.jpg"]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9NzKffXkQPU/TrsgvnWpTII/AAAAAAAAAOE/-dzn3x3xVbw/s1600/pass.jpg (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9NzKffXkQPU/TrsgvnWpTII/AAAAAAAAAOE/-dzn3x3xVbw/s1600/pass.jpg)

And now Pig Pen Ruthlessraper is confused because they are working on passing almost exclusively under Todd Haley, even though Haley did runt he ball in Kansas City.

Basically it's a big ole http://www.livefoods.co.uk/images/scanocrix.jpg

I once went fishing with them crickets, late at night, along a river and in a rental canoe....but on the OP, the picture hasn't changed in the past ten years. The organization is transitioned orderly, with thorough transitioning recognition, and a completely full and objective picture in hand.

The fact that many fans are now noticing Stephen, is that the franchise is handling so many of the other things that focus goes there now. Despite a trash load provided and cultivated by media...local and Nationally.

[junk]

This is all I'm going to say because you refuse to acknowledge Big Ben's comments:


I'll acknowledge them.


“I get a little confused at times because I know so much has been made about us quote-unquote throwing the ball too much, or we’re going back to Steeler football and running the ball more,” Roethlisberger said. “But in these meetings I’ve had with coach Haley he’s all about the no-huddle, and using our wide receiver weapons, and throwing the ball, and stuff like that, so I’m still confused. I’m not sure what’s going to happen yet.”


OK, explain to me how this ties back to this pie in the sky theory that Rooney canned Arians?

Like I said, if anything it diminishes your argument.

If Rooney wanted Arians gone to go back to "smash mouth" football, why'd Tomlin hire a guy who is implementing more of a passing attack?

Oh, I know. Maybe because it wasn't Rooney's decision......like I've posted repeatedly in this thread and has been confirmed by Rooney, Colbert AND Tomlin.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

How do you reconcile Arians saying that he was not offered a contract by Rooney and that all throughout the season Tomlin said he wanted him back?

Quite frankly to think that Rooney is not deeply involved in the management of the team is naive.

I also would call it willful ignorance.

I can see why Rooney would lie, he has his reputation to uphold. I don't really see the motivation for Arians lying publicly about laying it at the feet of Rooney and exonerating Tomlin.

Both cannot be correct.

[junk]

How do you reconcile Arians saying that he was not offered a contract by Rooney and that all throughout the season Tomlin said he wanted him back?

Quite frankly to think that Rooney is not deeply involved in the management of the team is naive.
Oh, I'm sure Rooney is involved in the team. I don't think he forced Arians out however.


I also would call it willful ignorance.

I'd say willful ignorance is continuing to post (and apparently believe) the incorrect information that repeated in this thread over and over again.

All I've seen is incorrect information and rampant speculation.


I can see why Rooney would lie, he has his reputation to uphold. I don't really see the motivation for Arians lying publicly about laying it at the feet of Rooney and exonerating Tomlin.

Both cannot be correct.
Where did he "lay it at the feet of Rooney"? All I saw him say was that Rooney was the one that called him.

And how did he exonerate Tomlin?

All I saw was a very lukewarm response at the end of the year press conference from Tomlin.


On whether coordinators Bruce Arians and Dick LeBeau will return next season: "I anticipate it, but of course, we all understand what the end of the season is about. Movement is apart of it in today's NFL. We're going to work to maintain continuity as we always do. We believe that's a benefit to us. But we also understand things happen and we'll deal with those tings as they arise."

You guys want to speculate.....there are a ton of scenarios that could have caused Tomlin to change his mind. The most logical is that he did his post season assessment of the team once they were out of the playoffs and realized the offensive performance wasn't what he wanted.

They were 12th in the league in YPG and 21st in scoring offense. Hardly outstanding.

I do think the funniest thing about all of this is how this board complains about people being influenced by the media.....then proceed to be influenced by the media speculation and ignore all the facts.

This is the Holy Grail that people use to justify Jerry's meddling. You could make a whole list of Jerry doing more egregious things than calling a coach to let him know his contract wasn't going to be renewed.

[Hostile]

How do you reconcile Arians saying that he was not offered a contract by Rooney and that all throughout the season Tomlin said he wanted him back?

Quite frankly to think that Rooney is not deeply involved in the management of the team is naive.

I also would call it willful ignorance.

I can see why Rooney would lie, he has his reputation to uphold. I don't really see the motivation for Arians lying publicly about laying it at the feet of Rooney and exonerating Tomlin.

Both cannot be correct.The issue at the base of this is that it tears at the fabric of their fairy tales. Suddenly owners are involved and people never said owners weren't involved. That is pure fabrication. For years people have been saying they want owners who get out of the way like the Rooney's in Pittsburgh do. Like Kraft does.

This story amuses me because here is the unraveling of that theory right before our very eyes and people who profess to hating the Steelers would rather defend what happened there than admit they were wrong about how NFL teams operate.

You see, if they admit how all NFL teams operate then it further unravels the theories they have about how the Dallas Cowboys are run. They can't abide that. They would rather defend the Steelers than learn something that could help them understand the business side of the game of football.

When that door closes this is the result. Spin anything that is said to defend the Rooneys and the Steelers and simultaneously deny that they are.

Rooney never did that...but I'm not defending him.

Fascinating stuff.

[Bluestang]

What seals it for me is Big Ben telling the media that he was going straight to Art Rooney to figure out the direction of the offense. It was no secret that Arians and Big Ben were close, in fact Big Ben saved Bruce Arians job in 2009 when he was on the hot seat.

If Mike Tomlin was the guy behind the firing of Bruce Arians then Big Ben would have been talking to Mike Tomlin plain and simple.

What is even more fascinating is that Big Ben would even talk to Art Rooney about football matters on the field in the first place. For an owner that is supposed to just sit in his owner's box and watch "real football men" manage his team he seems to have a diarrhea of the mouth when he talks to the media.

[Clove]

Oh yeah, we've been littered with talent and success under the current front office.

I can see teams lining up to add a guy like Stephen Jones to head their personnel department. With all the no success he's had at it over the years.:laugh1: great points all around. If he's running the show, I'm guessing results aren't a part of the Job profile. I mean, if he doesn't perform, who's going to fire him again?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Where did he "lay it at the feet of Rooney"? All I saw him say was that Rooney was the one that called him.

This is ignorant. This is about as much delusional stupidity as I can handle.

Have you fired anyone before?

Let me give you a hint: you don't call the owner of the company and have him do it for you.

That the owner was the one that made the call should tell you exactly where the buck stopped, where the man that took ultimate responsibility for the decision lay.

[junk]

When that door closes this is the result. Spin anything that is said to defend the Rooneys and the Steelers and simultaneously deny that they are.

Rooney never did that...but I'm not defending him.

Fascinating stuff.

The more fascinating thing is how you say you are ignoring me, but continue to chirp in this thread.

Like I said, this is the one example that you guys have continued to cling to even when your assertions are proven incorrect time and time again.

Quite simply, you are speculating because it makes you feel better about the things Jerry does.

Now, don't you have someone to challenge to a bet and then back out of?

[junk]

This is ignorant. This is about as much delusional stupidity as I can handle.

Straight to the insults. Tell you what, bring me something other than speculation and we can talk.

I've posted fact after fact in this thread and all I've seen in response is random speculation and blatantly incorrect information being used to formulate this random speculation.

You can believe whatever you want....that doesn't make it true nor does it make it fact.

[visionary]

Straight to the insults. Tell you what, bring me something other than speculation and we can talk.

I've posted fact after fact in this thread and all I've seen in response is random speculation and blatantly incorrect information being used to formulate this random speculation.

You can believe whatever you want....that doesn't make it true nor does it make it fact.

dont hold your breath

the inexcusable defending of jerry that goes on on this site, by mods/admins no less, is mind boggling

[Mash]

I Love Jerry :)

[Hostile]

dont hold your breath

the inexcusable defending of jerry that goes on on this site, by mods/admins no less, is mind boggling:laugh2:

It cracks me up how pointing a finger at the Steelers is defending Jerry. It never even dawned on you guys to admit Rooney did exactly what you maintained for years that only Jerry does. It isn't defending Jerry. I never said Rooney was wrong, Jerry was right, Jerry was wrong, or Rooney was right.

Process the information however you wish, but it should be pretty damned obvious by now that NFL teams do not have owners who sit back and let their football people run the show. Name me one football guy who was at the CBA negotiations instead of an owner. Perhaps Elway for the very ill Pat Bowlen, or Amy Trask for the at that time very ill Al Davis, but the owners, not their GMs called the football shots.

It is how it has always been folks. You guys were wrong. Learn from it. We all are from time to time.

[junk]

Name me one football guy who was at the CBA negotiations instead of an owner. Perhaps Elway for the very ill Pat Bowlen, or Amy Trask for the at that time very ill Al Davis, but the owners, not their GMs called the football shots.

CBA is the business side of football. I don't think you'll hear anyone complain about Jerry being involved in that. And, why in the world would you ever have a personnel guy involved in that?

Again, clearly, you really don't understand the different roles within an organization. I'll just chalk it up to being a fan of one of the more dysfunctional front offices in the league. But, hey, you wrote that Football 101 thread once......:rolleyes:

People are concerned about the personnel side. When Jerry dabbles, bad things happen.


It is how it has always been folks. You guys were wrong. Learn from it. We all are from time to time.

:laugh1:

Have you ever admitted you were wrong? Like, I don't know, maybe starting in this thread where you basically haven't gotten anything right.

[DOUBLE WING]

Rooney, not Arians, not Colbert, and not Tomlin announces that the man is going to "retire."

You really need to either start reading Junk's posts again, or stop saying this. He's linked numerous times now to evidence that shows it was Tomlin, not Rooney, who announced it. Repeating that it was Rooney over and over again isn't going to make it become true.

From that point the Steelers went into spin mode and you buy the spin. But the stuff I am posting was happening as things went down.

I find this quite ironic because myself and others have gotten into, let's say "arguments" with you on this board when I accused Cowboys players or coaches of spinning, or outright lying to the media about certain things (whether it be how Garrett coaches the team, how Jerry runs the team, how fellow teammates are playing, etc.) You were incredulous that I would actually accuse a player or coach of lying to the media, but now you're willing to ignore direct quotes from Mike Tomlin, Kevin Colbert and Art Rooney and believe it's all "spin". Interesting.

How do you reconcile Arians saying that he was not offered a contract by Rooney and that all throughout the season Tomlin said he wanted him back?

Is there a direct quote from anyone involved explicitly stating that Tomlin told someone he wanted Arians back?

Here's my question - if we're going to accuse people of lying, spinning, etc. Why are we discounting the fact that if Tomlin did tell Arians he wanted him back at some point during the season, that he may have been lying? What sense does it make to tell your offensive coordinator "You know, I doubt you're getting a new contract, so enjoy your last season here". Alternatively, why are we ignoring the possibility that Tomlin told Arians he wanted him back in.. let's say, week 3, but then changed his mind by the end of the season?

If Rooney wanted Arians gone to go back to "smash mouth" football, why'd Tomlin hire a guy who is implementing more of a passing attack?


Bingo. This is the million dollar question.

[junk]

Is there a direct quote from anyone involved explicitly stating that Tomlin told someone he wanted Arians back?



Apparently, during the season, Tomlin did indicate to Arians that he wanted him back. This is per Arians.

Fair enough. He might have at the beginning of the season....or midway through....or even immediately following the playoff loss.

But, he changed his mind....and he very clearly left the door open in the season ending press conference.

It happens. Sometimes you just need to shake up a coaching staff and an expiring contract is a way to do it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Straight to the insults. Tell you what, bring me something other than speculation and we can talk.

I've posted fact after fact in this thread and all I've seen in response is random speculation and blatantly incorrect information being used to formulate this random speculation.

You can believe whatever you want....that doesn't make it true nor does it make it fact.

Actually it was an argument about the statement being stupid. It was ignorant because you obviously have no idea how terminations are handled in US business. I started with the conclusion but the logical train to the conclusion was there.

That you ignored the part about the person --Rooney-- who made the firing decision being the one to inform the employee that they are being let go that speaks volumes.

Go ahead and be petulant.

[Hostile]

You really need to either start reading Junk's posts again, or stop saying this. He's linked numerous times now to evidence that shows it was Tomlin, not Rooney, who announced it. Repeating that it was Rooney over and over again isn't going to make it become true.You have no idea how many hours he and I have spent going over this. It is a waste of my time, his time, and time period. He insults me. I insult him back. Worthless.

At one time I respected him as much or more than most posters on this forum. That is gone. I feel it is in my best interests and his not to read his posts. I am sure the links he is posting are the same ones he believes are the gospel truth in his defense of the Steelers. I've seen them.

They say nothing of substance that has any interest to me at all.

You tell me to quit saying it. Why, because the truth is upsetting? There's an old saying, the truth hurts. I provided you links too. Did you read them? Because I have to tell you some of the questions you ask below, they already answer.

I know Steelers homers who do not believe Rooney's new claims that this was all Mike Tomlin's plan. They don't believe it for exactly the reasons I laid out in my last long post which had links and direct quotes.

If this was Tomlin's plan, why was he silent as it was unfolding? Can you provide me with a scrap of evidence that prior to Arians not being offered a contract by Rooney that Tomlin wanted him gone and was thinking of Haley?

Let me answer that for you. No. Yet that is exactly what you expect me to believe. No sale. Bruce Arians himself has been quoted as being confused at the news he was "retiring." And as I said, for a retired man he sure went back to the job fast when Indy called.

Riddle me this Batman. It is obvious there is no acrimony between Arians and Ruthlessraper. None between Arians and Tomlin. He expresses love and admiration for the man. None between Arians and Colbert that I have seen.

Yet there is friction between Arians and Rooney. Or do you deny this?

Common sense should tell people the truth. Why isn't it?

[DOUBLE WING]

You have no idea how many hours he and I have spent going over this. It is a waste of my time, his time, and time period. He insults me. I insult him back. Worthless.

At one time I respected him as much or more than most posters on this forum. That is gone. I feel it is in my best interests and his not to read his posts. I am sure the links he is posting are the same ones he believes are the gospel truth in his defense of the Steelers. I've seen them.

They say nothing of substance that has any interest to me at all.

You tell me to quit saying it. Why, because the truth is upsetting? There's an old saying, the truth hurts. I provided you links too. Did you read them? Because I have to tell you some of the questions you ask below, they already answer.

Whatever issues you two have or had is between you guys. All I'm saying is he linked the statement that you keep referring to and it only includes a quote from Tomlin. How you equate that to "Rooney announcing it" is beyond me.

If this was Tomlin's plan, why was he silent as it was unfolding? Can you provide me with a scrap of evidence that prior to Arians not being offered a contract by Rooney that Tomlin wanted him gone and was thinking of Haley?

Let me answer your question with a question - can you link me to one shred of evidence that Jerry Jones/Stephen Jones/Jason Garrett/Rob Ryan were unhappy with Dave Campo and considering replacing him during last season? Can you link me to one shred of evidence that Jerry and Stephen were unhappy with Wade during the season he was let go? It was a constant barrage of "continuity, he's our coach, blah blah". There was nothing like that, but the team still ended up letting them go, even if the whole world didn't know about it months beforehand like you apparently expect to be the case here with the Steelers. And once again, I'll say that you shouldn't discount the fact that Tomlin may have at one point, say in week 4, told Arians he wanted him back, but changed his mind by the end of the season.

And I'm still wondering why, if it was Rooney's master plan to dump Arians and get back to a run-orientated offense, they hired Todd Haley who is probably best known for his high-powered passing offense in Arizona and is apparently installing the same thing now in Pittsburgh.

Yet there is friction between Arians and Rooney. Or do you deny this?

I can't say this for certain. I can say for certain that Arians was contracted to do a job for the Steelers, and then that contract was up the Steelers decided not to renew it. It wasn't even like that he was fired. It was just "OK, your time here is up, thanks for everything but we won't be bringing you back."

If Arians is feeling salty about it after that, then maybe there is some friction from his end. I don't believe there is any from the Steelers end and I don't know why you expect me to believe everyone is lying and spinning here EXCEPT Bruce Arians, whose word you apparently take as gospel. What if Tomlin told him he wasn't being brought back, and Arians to save face said he would retire, then decided he wanted to keep coaching after the retirement release?

There's so many possibilities here that it's not even worth getting into, so I'm sticking with the actual facts, which are Mike Tomlin, Art Rooney and Kevin Colbert all saying it was Tomlin's decision.

[Hostile]

:laugh2:

[DOUBLE WING]

What's funny?

[Hostile]

What's funny?You just defended junk's position to me, and then just tore him apart in the very next post.

And I'm still wondering why, if it was Rooney's master plan to dump Arians and get back to a run-orientated offense, they hired Todd Haley who is probably best known for his high-powered passing offense in Arizona and is apparently installing the same thing now in Pittsburgh.Yeah, that's what the rest of us you don't agree with are wondering too. See post #215 and the subsequent replies.

:laugh2:

Hopefully this all starts to fit for you. This is a good start.

[DOUBLE WING]

You just defended junk's position to me, and then just tore him apart in the very next post.

What did I tear apart? I admittedly haven't been keeping up with all his posts, but I did want to point out that it was Tomlin who announced the retirement, not Rooney.

Yeah, that's what the rest of us you don't agree with are wondering too. See post #215 and the subsequent replies.

:laugh2:

Hopefully this all starts to fit for you. This is a good start.

Well, that ties it all together for me. Rooney "forcing" Arians out to get back to a run-based offense, then hiring a guy known for his passing offense just doesn't make sense and IMO, any argument for Rooney "meddling" in this process is stopped dead in its tracks right there.

I think it's pretty clear to see what happened in this situation and while I don't have concrete evidence for every portion of it, I have enough and I think the rest fits together logically to be able to see what really happened.

[Hostile]

What did I tear apart? I admittedly haven't been keeping up with all his posts, but I did want to point out that it was Tomlin who announced the retirement, not Rooney.



Well, that ties it all together for me. Rooney "forcing" Arians out to get back to a run-based offense, then hiring a guy known for his passing offense just doesn't make sense and IMO, any argument for Rooney "meddling" in this process is stopped dead in its tracks right there.

I think it's pretty clear to see what happened in this situation and while I don't have concrete evidence for every portion of it, I have enough and I think the rest fits together logically to be able to see what really happened.Just one question Mr. Holmes.

Why does Pig Pen Ruthlessraper agree with our position then since he is the one in post #215 expressing confusion? There's your concrete evidence. Unless you think the Steelers starting QB was confused about the return to running roots from some other source that has not been introduced.

:laugh2:

[Hostile]

Apparently this Steelers Blogger didn't get the memos either.

http://www.steelerslounge.com/2012/01/art-rooney-asserts-authority/

[Chocolate Lab]

Well I'm convinced, guys. We're run exactly like the Steelers.

[Hostile]

Well I'm convinced, guys. We're run exactly like the Steelers.All teams essentially are CL. Not sure why that idea is so repulsive. Some team owners make more waves than others. We have an owner who makes waves. Oh well. The sun will still come up tomorrow and we will still be fans of the Dallas Cowboys.

I think that is a great thing. I guess you don't have to if you don't want to. I won't even pretend to understand though.

[Dodger12]

If this was Tomlin's plan, why was he silent as it was unfolding? Can you provide me with a scrap of evidence that prior to Arians not being offered a contract by Rooney that Tomlin wanted him gone and was thinking of Haley?

Riddle me this Batman. It is obvious there is no acrimony between Arians and Ruthlessraper. None between Arians and Tomlin. He expresses love and admiration for the man. None between Arians and Colbert that I have seen.

Arians was on the hot seat in 2010 and his OL coach was eventually fired. Speculation was that Arians would be fired as well but Rothlisberger lobbied for him to keep his job.

Common sense should tell people the truth. Why isn't it?

I completely agree…………………

Alot of this should have been handled internally but Big Ben was caught off guard with the firing of Bruce Arians and his owner making comments about his play.

No, he wasn’t (caught off guard). See the link below. Big Ben knew his OC was on the hot seat if they lost to Denver and he threw the first volley at management BEFORE the game. Although you guys won't admit it, this puts a major dent in your claim(s).

Why does Pig Pen Ruthlessraper agree with our position then since he is the one in post #215 expressing confusion? There's your concrete evidence. Unless you think the Steelers starting QB was confused about the return to running roots from some other source that has not been introduced.

The evidence is not so concrete as you claim. Arians was on the hot seat in 2010 and Rothlisberger saved his job then but it wasn’t enough to save their OL coach. Arians was also contemplating retiring in 2011 after a battle with prostate cancer but his QB talked him into staying on for another season.

Riddle me this Batman. It is obvious there is no acrimony between Arians and Ruthlessraper. None between Arians and Tomlin. He expresses love and admiration for the man. None between Arians and Colbert that I have seen.

You can continue the whole shtick you've created for yourself; "riddle me this Batman", "and one question Mr. Holmes" bull crap.....it's become your way of deflecting and hoping that if you ridicule someone's position, then it will make it less plausible and believable. In other words, attack the messenger to weaken the message.

But, more importantly, if there was "obviously" no acrimony (which is a complete assumption on your part), then why did Big Ben feel the need to defend his OC and warn against his firing BEFORE the season was even over?

Let me answer for you. It's "obvious" only to you because your whole theory is propped on this fallacy. Don't take my word for it, listen to Arians' friend, neighbor and QB.

Take your own advice and follow the evidence.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/08/ben-roethlisberger-warns-against-changing-coordinators/

The Steelers are favorites on Sunday in Denver. If Pittsburgh can win, it will set up the first Steelers-Patriots playoff game since Ben Roethlisberger’s rookie season.

There have been a lot of changes on the Steelers offense since 2004. They are more of a spread attack now built around Roethlisberger and his young receivers. The power running game is largely gone.

If the Steelers happen to get upset in Denver Sunday, Roethlisberger warns against making changes. He doesn’t want offensive coordinator Bruce Arians going anywhere.

“We’ve got something special here,” Roethlisberger said this week via Ron Cook of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. “We’ve got a lot of great young players. As long as they don’t get crazy and change the offense — that can really set you back — the sky is the limit for this team.”

The part about changing the offense was unprompted; Roethlisberger was sending a clear message to management. He knows that Arians isn’t overly popular in Pittsburgh despite record setting numbers for the team’s offense.

Of course, the best way Roethlisberger can help Arians is to keep winning playoff games.

[DOUBLE WING]

Just one question Mr. Holmes.

Why does Pig Pen Ruthlessraper agree with our position then since he is the one in post #215 expressing confusion? There's your concrete evidence. Unless you think the Steelers starting QB was confused about the return to running roots from some other source that has not been introduced.

:laugh2:

I don't think that quote means what you want it to mean. You seem to want it to essentially mean, "Art Rooney wants us to go back to running the ball, but that's not what we're doing." I take it to mean that all the message board/talk radio fodder about Pittsburgh going back to a run-based offense was wrong.

[Bluestang]

http://eye-on-football.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22475988/34496197

Before Steelers (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/PIT) offensive coordinator Bruce Arians retired (http://eye-on-football.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22475988/34476988), coach Mike Tomlin told reporters in a postseason presser that he wanted both of his coordinators to return in 2012. Arians, in fact, told people he would be back next season. That obviously won’t happen now that Arians isn’t returning.

But the Pittsburgh Post Gazette (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/12021/1205041-66.stm) has some interesting insight into what forced Arians to make that call. According to the paper, the organization was not going to renew Arians’ contract, and in essence, was going to fire him without officially having to fire him.

“That decision,” writes reporter Gerry Dulac, “appears to have come from team president Art Rooney II, even though coach Mike Tomlin told Arians several times since the playoff loss in Denver that he wanted him to return next season.”

Now, it appears Tomlin was overruled by his boss.

The only statement released by the Steelers on the matter was this one paragraph from Tomlin:

“Bruce Arians has informed me that he will retire from coaching. I appreciate his efforts over the past five years as the team’s offensive coordinator and for helping lead our offense to new heights during his time with the Steelers. I am grateful to Bruce for contributing to our success and wish him nothing but the best in his retirement.”

That’s it. No quotes from Arians. No quotes from Rooney.

On the face of it, that statement leans more toward dismissal than a happy retirement. And considering that Arians wasn’t popular with the fanbase, though he put together a more-than-solid offense this season and though Ben Roethlisberger (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/493043) has helped save his job in the past, the Post Gazette opines, “Apparently, the Steelers hierarchy agreed with many of his detractors.”



Look at what their own fanbase has to say:
http://www.steelerslounge.com/2012/02/view-tomlin-arians-big-ben-art-ii/

During the last Steelers Lounge Podcast (http://www.steelerslounge.com/2012/02/steelers-lounge-podcast-69-todd-haley-yall/), I detected a note of antagonism against the Rooneys and their handling of the forced retirement of Bruce Arians. Somehow his dismissal is being interpreted as a meddlesome act by a group of guileless, petulant owners and managers, and should only have been exercised with the proper approval and under the direction of the head coach. Really?
Well, the head coach had his chance to do it right two years ago… and blew it. But let’s back up for a moment.
According to a report by Jim Wexell (whom I generally trust despite him being somewhat thin-skinned and admittedly hot-headed), the Rooney’s wanted to get rid of Arians two years ago, in part because he wouldn’t follow orders and had a big huge loud blubbery mouth. Apparently, around that time, Arians leaked the players that the Steelers were interested in drafting to some of his buddies in the media, and — quelle surprise! — the information got out. (I suspect that’s why Ed Bouchette is so amazingly adept at guessing the Steelers draft picks.)
The Rooney’s, Kevin Colbert, and the Steelers’ scouting organization were dumbstruck, livid, and absolutely furious, not necessarily in that order.
Now, I worked for several decades as a middle manager, fighting the white collar wars day-in and day-out, and while I profess to be no expert, I know that the number one rule for any middle manager is this: Keep the Boss Happy. And in the case that the boss is also an owner, Keep the Boss Extra Happy.
Mike Tomlin failed to do this.
If Wexell’s report is true, two years ago, one of Tomlin’s bosses, either directly or indirectly, mentioned that the team would probably be better off if Arians was shown the door. Tomlin made the mistake of thinking he had a choice in this matter. Instead of heeding his bosses’ instructions, he and Roethlisberger teamed up to plead Arians’ case and save his job. And the Rooney’s relented… for the time being.
I believe that Tomlin made a big rookie mistake. He made the mistake of believing that being a Head Coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers meant (to him) that he had more power and autonomy than he really had. In reality, Tomlin is simply a middle manager in the organization, despite the heady title on his business card.
By supporting Arians and temporarily saving his job, Tomlin had in fact put himself out on the same skinny branch Arians was sitting, which meant that any failure by Arians would now also be Tomlin’s failure, at least in the eyes of the Rooney’s, which is all that counts.
Snap! So when Arians eventually, inevitably failed, Tomlin failed with him.
And so when it was time to finally do the dirty deed, it was the Rooneys’ job to pick up the ax and swing it, all of which means Tomlin’s authority has been trimmed considerably, I believe.
My point is this: Mike Tomlin should have fired Arians two years ago, rightly or wrongly. By not doing it, he weakened his standing in the eyes of the Steelers’ owners and managers, and consequently, is now suffering the consequences. And one of those consequences is that he most likely did not get to choose Arians’ successor, and he most likely will not get to make any serious hire or promotion without the Rooneys’ and Kevin Colbert’s approval.
I don’t believe that Mike Tomlin has nearly as much authority or trust within the organization as many of us have believed. And I wouldn’t be surprised when it comes time to renew Tomlin’s contract, if the Steelers don’t play hardball with him extra hard. After all, his successor, if he’s had any success with the offense at all, may already be in the building.
- Randy Steele


http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/17245562/rooney-iis-meddling-with-tomlins-coaching-staff-is-shockingly-unsteelerslike
This is what we know about a story that continues to grow and may not go away anytime soon.
We know Mike Tomlin has appeared in two Super Bowls, winning one. He's one of the best young coaches in the NFL. We know that Tomlin wanted offensive coordinator Bruce Arians back. Multiple league sources confirm a Pittsburgh Post-Gazette report that Tomlin told his staff Arians was returning. (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/12040/1209034-87-0.stm) Arians, I am told, then informed friends around the league of the same news.
This is also what we know. The president of the Steelers, Art Rooney II, overruled Tomlin on keeping Arians. Sources confirm this as well. We also know that no one on the Steelers has denied any of this and they've had plenty of opportunity. There's been nothing but extremely loud silence from Tomlin in particular.
Now, in the future, my guess is Tomlin will play the good soldier and at some point say everything is cool. Yet no one will believe Tomlin, and now this has become one of the bigger stories of the offseason.

So what did Mike Tomlin say at the owner's meeting?


Just one more:
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/on-the-steelers-the-games-never-stop-629390/

Tomlin declared Tuesday at the NFL meetings that both were his decisions, and while Art Rooney also has declared he had nothing to do with the hiring of Haley, he did not say he had nothing to do with Arians' departure.
Yet Tomlin could be right on both accounts, semantically.
Start with Arians. Tomlin said Monday after the playoff loss that he anticipated both of his coordinators would return for the 2012 season. Art Rooney later said some coaches might "retire."
The Post-Gazette reported that not only did Arians want to come back but that Tomlin told him he wanted him back.
Then, the Steelers issued a statement that Arians had "retired" with a comment from Tomlin wishing him well in his retirement. A week later, Arians took a job as offensive coordinator of the Indianapolis Colts.
Let's go back to what Mike Tomlin said Tuesday at the NFL meetings about Arians' departure. He did not mention anything about retirement. He DID say he thought it was time for a change and that it was his decision for Arians to leave.
So, that would make the Steelers' original declaration on Arians "retirement" and Tomlin's statement wishing him well in retirement a bit disingenuous.
As for why Tomlin would go from saying he thought both coordinators would return and telling Arians as much to firing him, that could very well be true. Tomlin may have made both statements, public to us and private to Arians, before he spoke to Art Rooney. When they did talk, Rooney may have impressed on Tomlin his feelings that Arians should no longer serve as offensive coordinator and with his contract up, it would be a good time to do it.
Rooney wanted Arians out two years ago, but Ben Roethlisberger reportedly saved his job by pleading for it with Tomlin.
So, maybe after listening to Rooney, Tomlin was faced with two choices: Keep Arians against Rooney's wishes for the second time in three years, or dump him and move on. Chuck Noll was faced with just such a decision 23 years ago. We can assume that Tomlin reluctantly signed off on Rooney's wishes and told Arians the Steelers would not offer him a contract.
Thus, it was Tomlin's ultimate "decision" but maybe not his preference.

[Mr_Bill]

[snip]

Let me answer your question with a question - can you link me to one shred of evidence that Jerry Jones/Stephen Jones/Jason Garrett/Rob Ryan were unhappy with Dave Campo and considering replacing him during last season? Can you link me to one shred of evidence that Jerry and Stephen were unhappy with Wade during the season he was let go? It was a constant barrage of "continuity, he's our coach, blah blah". There was nothing like that, but the team still ended up letting them go, even if the whole world didn't know about it months beforehand like you apparently expect to be the case here with the Steelers. And once again, I'll say that you shouldn't discount the fact that Tomlin may have at one point, say in week 4, told Arians he wanted him back, but changed his mind by the end of the season.

[snip]



Allow me to ask this question: If the names involved in this controversy were Jones, Garrett, Ryan, and Ware (say over a 4-3 defense instead of a 3-4 defense), would you use the same arguments? Or would you be on a different tack entirely?

[Hostile]

Allow me to ask this question: If the names involved in this controversy were Jones, Garrett, Ryan, and Ware (say over a 4-3 defense instead of a 3-4 defense), would you use the same arguments? Or would you be on a different tack entirely?:bow:

[Hostile]

I don't think that quote means what you want it to mean. You seem to want it to essentially mean, "Art Rooney wants us to go back to running the ball, but that's not what we're doing." I take it to mean that all the message board/talk radio fodder about Pittsburgh going back to a run-based offense was wrong.Matthew Henry never looked wiser.

Bluestang's last post has more evidence and common sense than should be needed.