DC.com Video: Rob Ryan Interview

[Bluestang]

http://www.dallascowboys.com/multimedia/videos/Jason-Garrett-Press-Conference-1112/8ad32453-a3b9-43bd-b96d-3025dfe9392d#/multimedia/videos/Ryan_Players_Deserve_The_Credit/e4b28fe3-b05c-493f-b6ac-0f281a6fe824

Ryan gives props to Tom Ciskowski for finding him players to help on the defense.

A rare mention but a very important one.

[1fisher]

http://www.dallascowboys.com/multimedia/videos/Jason-Garrett-Press-Conference-1112/8ad32453-a3b9-43bd-b96d-3025dfe9392d#/multimedia/videos/Ryan_Players_Deserve_The_Credit/e4b28fe3-b05c-493f-b6ac-0f281a6fe824

Ryan gives props to Tom Ciskowski for finding him players to help on the defense.

A rare mention but a very important one.

Say it ain't so....

[Dave_in-NC]

This will go unnoticed.

[Oh_Canada]

I think the scouting staff has done a great job the last few years.

[cowboyeric8]

It can't be true. Jerry is the DEVIL!

[Bluestang]

Titles...they define everything but mean nothing.

[cowboyeric8]

Titles...they define everything but mean nothing.

Unless of course it is super bowl titles :trophy: :D

[Idgit]

I'm going to let a cat out of a big bag, here, but those debates about how we assemble talent, were about drama completely unrelated to how we assemble talent. Everybody here knows that already, right?

[Idgit]

Kinda cool that they call them 'takeovers' rather than 'takeaways.'

[Bluestang]

I'm going to let a cat out of a big bag, here, but those debates about how we assemble talent, were about drama completely unrelated to how we assemble talent. Everybody here knows that already, right?

Yet the drama persists with other threads, doesn't it?

[Hostile]

I'm going to let a cat out of a big bag, here, but those debates about how we assemble talent, were about drama completely unrelated to how we assemble talent. Everybody here knows that already, right?If it had been anyone but me reporting how we actually do things pertaining to personnel no one would have had an issue with it. You know that already right?

In other words, the drama was produced by that direction. I merely defended what I already knew was correct information. Notice how the same guys aren't rebutting Rob Ryan. But may show up now because I broke my silence. It won't be to say they were wrong.

Guaranteed.

[Risen Star]

I don't care who says it. Anyone who tries to tell me Jerry Jones is kind of like an athletic director, an empty suit and doesn't routinely exercise his power as GM and final decision maker on this team is wrong. Way wrong. He wouldn't covet the gig so much if he didn't like the power.

I'm literally embarrassed that we even have to have this debate.

[ConstantReboot]

http://www.dallascowboys.com/multimedia/videos/Jason-Garrett-Press-Conference-1112/8ad32453-a3b9-43bd-b96d-3025dfe9392d#/multimedia/videos/Ryan_Players_Deserve_The_Credit/e4b28fe3-b05c-493f-b6ac-0f281a6fe824

Ryan gives props to Tom Ciskowski for finding him players to help on the defense.

A rare mention but a very important one.

Please, please find any way to keep Tom Ciskowski in Dallas. If he leaves we will be back to awful drafting by Jones and the Cowboys. In fact, Jones will promote another Garrett crony to handle the job of drafting and free agency and we will be cursed with lack of talent because of it.

[DCBoysfan]

Please, please find any way to keep Tom Ciskowski in Dallas. If he leaves we will be back to awful drafting by Jones and the Cowboys. In fact, Jones will promote another Garrett crony to handle the job of drafting and free agency and we will be cursed with lack of talent because of it.

I believe the samething was said when Ireland went to Miami with Bill.

[Idgit]

I believe the samething was said when Ireland went to Miami with Bill.

It was.

We're on a pretty good run here in recent drafts. I don't care who gets the credit. I imagine it's one part a coach that knows what he wants, one part a scouting staff who can identify it, and one part a warroom willing and able to go up, or down, to get it. As long as the roster keeps getting better with young players, we're heading in the right direction.

[ddh33]

The stupid debates will never end.

But back to the point, I think this front office has done an amazing job of digging guys up and putting them in position to help this team. They deserve a ton of credit for what they have been able to do.

[ConstantReboot]

I believe the samething was said when Ireland went to Miami with Bill.

Well if Tom Ciskowski leaves he will be replaced by one of Jason Garrett's brother. I rather have someone who is proven than someone who gets to draft people because he is the head coaches brother.

[Risen Star]

The stupid debates will never end.

But back to the point, I think this front office has done an amazing job of digging guys up and putting them in position to help this team. They deserve a ton of credit for what they have been able to do.

Yes. An amazing job. I look at this roster and marvel at all the talent.

[Risen Star]

Well if Tom Ciskowski leaves he will be replaced by one of Jason Garrett's brother. I rather have someone who is proven than someone who gets to draft people because he is the head coaches brother.

Ciskowski doesn't get to draft anyone. He compiles the information and leaves it for the decision makers on the team to decide.

But if you feel that way, what do you say about Ciskowski's boss, the VP of Personnel, only having the gig because he's the Owner's son?

And what has Ciskowski proven anyway? Has he ever been part of a winner?

[Risen Star]

It was.

We're on a pretty good run here in recent drafts. I don't care who gets the credit. I imagine it's one part a coach that knows what he wants, one part a scouting staff who can identify it, and one part a warroom willing and able to go up, or down, to get it. As long as the roster keeps getting better with young players, we're heading in the right direction.


Our last three drafts that equates to a "pretty good run", with a reasonable outlook on each pick....

2010
1(24) Dez Bryant WR Oklahoma St. - This looks more and more like a bad decision by the day.
2(55) Sean Lee ILB Penn St. - Injury concerns but still a hit.
4(126) Akwasi Owusu-Ansah CB Indiana (Pa.) - Wasted pick.
6(179) Sam Young T Notre Dame - Garbage.
6(196) Jamar Wall CB Texas Tech - Couldn't play.
7(234) Sean Lissemore - Looks like a decent role player. Hit.

So what we have here is one really good player but he's injury prone. He may or may not have a great career because of it. Dez is an infant mentally. We all know he's not reaching his potential. Lissemore is a rotational sub.

2011
1(9) Tyron Smith T USC - Grand Slam.
2(40) Bruce Carter OLB North Carolina - Beast.
3(71) DeMarco Murray RB Oklahoma - Solid pick but injury prone.
4(110) David Arkin T Missouri St. - Can't play.
5(143) Josh Thomas CB Buffalo - Swing and a miss.
6(176) Dwayne Harris WR East Carolina - Could be an emerging return man.
7(220) Shaun Chapas FB Georgia - Not an NFL player.
7(252) Bill Nagy C Wisconsin - Shown nothing and injury prone.

Two outstanding players at the top and another that could be if he could ever stay on the field. The last 5 picks were a waste unless Harris sticks as an impact return man and/or receiver.

2012
1(6) Morris Claiborne CB LSU - Actually cost 1(14) and 2(45). Nice player, waaaaaay overpaid for him. No impact whatsoever.
3(81) Tyrone Crawford DE Boise St. - Has shown nothing yet to warrant the pick but it's still early.
4(113) Kyle Wilber OLB Purdue - Is he on the team? Oh.
4(135) Matt Johnson S Eastern Washington - Evil Knievel had less injuries. Which could be saving us from seeing he can't play. Like his draft grade outside of Dallas suggests.
5(152) Danny Coale WR Virginia Tech - Practice squad.
6(186) James Hanna TE Oklahoma - Hasn't done anything but hasn't had a chance yet either. A complete unknown.
7(222) Caleb McSurdy ILB Montana St. - Everybody's favorite lunch pail pick. Then camp started. Selling insurance in the fall of 2013.

We stand a very good chance of coming out of the 2012 draft with, wait for it, a cornerback. ~confetti~.....~party noise makers~

Now I would agree this three year clip is better than Jerry's norm, but Jerry's norm is horrific. There's a huge gap from that to quality and I think it's a real stretch to claim we're on a "pretty good run" here with our drafting. In fact, if you look at the 4th round on, when teams build their quality depth, we're still pretty bad.

[Bluestang]

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/draft.htm

Lets see you break down their draft picks...you can start with 2008 if you wish.

[Bluestang]

2008:
1(31) = Kenny Phillips (S) - starter, missed 2009 season due to knee injury, missed one game 2011 season, and now injured since 9/30 this season
2(63) = Terrell Thomas (DB) - three good seasons but has been injured since
3(95) = Mario Manningham (WR)- 18 career TDs but team let him walk in FA due to cap management
4(123) = Bryan Kehl (LB) - waived in 2010.
5(165) = Jonathan Goff (LB) - became a starter in 2010, now signed with Redskins but on IR for a torn ACL
6(198) = Andre Woodson (QB) - waived by Hartford Colonials in 2010 in the UFL, coaches the Kentucky Wildcats now
6(199) = Robert Henderson (DE) - waived in 2009, now plays for NO VooDoos

2009:
1(29) = Hackeem Nicks (WR) - missed games in first two years, but is a starter w/ 25 career TDs
2(45) = Clint Sintim (LB) - waived in August of this year, amassed 33 career tackles and 1 sack
2(60) = William Beatty (OT) - got the starting LT job in 2011 and still the starter
3(85) = Ramses Barden (WR) - career 25 receptions, 335 yds
3(100) = Travis Beckum (TE) - career 24 receptions, 251 yds, 3 TDs
4(129) = Andre Brown (RB) - waived in 2010, and then brought back in 2011, is currently RB2
5(151) = Rhett Bomar (QB) - waived in 2010, now plays with the Raiders
6(200) = DeAndre Wright (DB) - waived in 2009, now plays New Mexico Stars
7(238) = Stoney Woodson (DB) - waived in 2009, now plays with Jacksonville Sharks

2010:
1(15) = Jason Pierre-Paul (DE) - it took a year but he enough said about him.
2(46) = Linval Joseph (DT) - career 79 tackles, 6 sacks. 4 of those sacks this season
3(76) = Chad Jones (S) - waived this season
4(115) = Phillip Dillard (LB) - waived in 2011, now plays for Omaha Nighthawks
5(147) = Mitch Petrus (OG) - waived this season
6(184) = Adrian Tracy (LB) - spent 2010 on IR, signed to PS in 2011, now on active roster as backup
7(221) - Matt Dodge (P) - waived in 2011 after disastrous 2010 season

2011:
1(19) = Prince Amukamara (DB) - current starter
2(52) = Marvin Austin (DT) - spent 2011 on IR, but hasn't started a game in 2012 and has 4 career tackles
3(83) = Jerrell Jernigan (WR) - career 6 recieving yds
4(117) = James Brewer (OT) - spent all 16 games inactive in 2011, has only played in two games this year with no starts
6(185) = Greg Jones (LB) - waived this season
6(198) = Tyler Sash (S) - special teamer
6(202) = Jacquian Williams (LB) - rotational player
7(221) = Da'Rel Scott (RB) - RB3 in 2011, now on IR this season

2012:
1(32) = David Wilson (RB)- KR special teamer, pressed into action with injuries to Bradshaw and Brown
2(63) = Rueben Randle (WR) - career 9 receptions, 154 yds
3(94) = Jayron Hosley (DB)- Nickel corner
4(127) = Adrien Robinson (TE) - has only appeared in two games
4(131) = Brandon Mosley (T) - on IR this season
6(201) = Matt McCants (T) - currently on PS
7(239) = Marcus Kuhn (DT) - tore his ACL this year, only had 8 tackles.


So where is this quality depth from the 4th round and beyond with a team with a "real GM"?

[preacher238]

And the beat goes on.....SMH

[wittenacious]

:laugh2:

[Idgit]

I have huge quibbles with this 'reasonable outlook.' If you're going to look at the effectiveness of teams' draft picks you can't do it in a vacuum. Two thirds of team's first-round picks, collectively, never make it to a probowl. Yet fans consistently have expectations for players that aren't realistic, and end up dissatisfied with effective draft picks as a result.

A very good draft is going to net you three starters and a couple of role players. Two starters and some role players is solid. We'd probably never agree on a metric, but someone with more time on their hands that I have has probably come up with a draft efficiency index that takes %games played/%games started/probowls/time in league/whatever other relevant factors into account.

Failing, that, though, you can at least look at the net players added each of the last three years--this time including the college FA who are, of course, also the by product of the team's scouting and selection process.


2010

1(24) Dez Bryant WR Oklahoma St. - This looks more and more like a bad decision by the day. (He's on track for 80 catches and over 1,000 yards this season. Not what I wanted him to be at this point in his career, but hardly a 'bad decision.')

2(55) Sean Lee ILB Penn St. - Injury concerns but still a hit. (One of the most promising ILBs in the league already, as as second round pick. Yeah. I'd say he was 'a hit.')

4(126) Akwasi Owusu-Ansah CB Indiana (Pa.) - Wasted pick. (Overstatement. He made the roster and was an insignificant role player. He at least played in games in the league for two different teams.

6(179) Sam Young T Notre Dame - Garbage. (Not garbage, but not a successful pick).

6(196) Jamar Wall CB Texas Tech - Couldn't play.

7(234) Sean Lissemore - Looks like a decent role player. Hit. (A 7th round role-player who's working his way into the lineup as a starter, yeah. Looks like a hit).

What's missing from your list for 2010? OC Phil Costa (starting OC), S Barry Church (starting S), S Danny McCray (injury replacement to starting S), FB Chris Gronkowski (minor role player, miss).

2011
1(9) Tyron Smith T USC - Grand Slam. (Not a grand slam in my book. Starter, though).

2(40) Bruce Carter OLB North Carolina - Beast. (Yep.)

3(71) DeMarco Murray RB Oklahoma - Solid pick but injury prone. (This was the steal of the third round, and maybe of the entire draft. Pair him with Smith and Carter, and you've already got your third starter for this year).

4(110) David Arkin T Missouri St. - Can't play. (Overstatement. He's a developing player and not yet a significant role player, but he's in contention for snaps next year, at least as in injury replacement to a starter if not in outright competition for RG next training camp. We knew coming out that he was going to need time in the weight room to develop).

5(143) Josh Thomas CB Buffalo - Swing and a miss.

6(176) Dwayne Harris WR East Carolina - Could be an emerging return man. (Pretty clearly already an emerged return man. Could be an emerging WR).

7(220) Shaun Chapas FB Georgia - Not an NFL player. (He was on the DET practice squad, last I'd heard).

7(252) Bill Nagy C Wisconsin - Shown nothing and injury prone. (If he's shown nothing, I'm curious why the Lions snagged him, injured, when we tried to sneak him through waivers? Because you're understating his ability, that's why).

And, you'd neglected to credit the UDFAs again:

RB Phillip Tanner (backup RB), OC Kevin Kowalski (active on game days once he's back in the rotation?), OLB Alex Albright (getting snaps on teams and in defensive packages), K Dan Bailey (starting kicker, and very good).


2012
1(6) Morris Claiborne CB LSU - Actually cost 1(14) and 2(45). Nice player, waaaaaay overpaid for him. No impact whatsoever. (Nonsense. Starter, with huge potential. Was a tremendous value where he was selected at a position of major need).

3(81) Tyrone Crawford DE Boise St. - Has shown nothing yet to warrant the pick but it's still early. (Has shown plenty. Is already a role player, and someone I think competes for starting snaps as early as next season).

4(113) Kyle Wilber OLB Purdue - Is he on the team? Oh. (Yes, and someone who plays a deep position, missed most of the offseason and then required surgery to repair a broken thumb. We'll see next season what his prospects really are, but you're premature to consider him a miss).

4(135) Matt Johnson S Eastern Washington - Evil Knievel had less injuries. Which could be saving us from seeing he can't play. Like his draft grade outside of Dallas suggests. (No way to say b/c of the injuries. No idea how you've concluded they're masking the fact that he can't play b/c the coaches have been high on him for what little time he's gotten).

5(152) Danny Coale WR Virginia Tech - Practice squad. (Yep)

6(186) James Hanna TE Oklahoma - Hasn't done anything but hasn't had a chance yet either. A complete unknown. (6th round pick that made the team and gets snaps as a role player. That's not nothing).

7(222) Caleb McSurdy ILB Montana St. - Everybody's favorite lunch pail pick. Then camp started. Selling insurance in the fall of 2013.

You're forgetting Beasley (role player on offense), Dunbar (role player on offense), Leary (practice squad) and Benford (practice squad, I think). And now Bass (called up to the active roster).

That's a quality three year run in my book. I think it's a quality run in most books, and it's just that fans have relatively unrealistic expectations for what sort of snaps a drafted player is going to be able to give you.

You can tell when people are walking around calling Marcus Spears a bust that they don't have even a vague idea how difficult it really is to find guys who can stick on your roster for 8-9 seasons. You've only got 22 starting positions + specialty players on a roster for any given year. A lot of those slots are filled by veteran FAs. That doesn't leave too many slots open for 7 full rounds of picks over multiple seasons and including successful college FAs.

[jobberone]

Our last three drafts that equates to a "pretty good run", with a reasonable outlook on each pick....

2010
1(24) Dez Bryant WR Oklahoma St. - This looks more and more like a bad decision by the day.
2(55) Sean Lee ILB Penn St. - Injury concerns but still a hit.
4(126) Akwasi Owusu-Ansah CB Indiana (Pa.) - Wasted pick.
6(179) Sam Young T Notre Dame - Garbage.
6(196) Jamar Wall CB Texas Tech - Couldn't play.
7(234) Sean Lissemore - Looks like a decent role player. Hit.

So what we have here is one really good player but he's injury prone. He may or may not have a great career because of it. Dez is an infant mentally. We all know he's not reaching his potential. Lissemore is a rotational sub.

I basically agree although I'm not that concerned about Lee. I think he's a star. Bryant the vote is not in yet although I agree its a concern. Lissemore may prove more than a role player and I'd say in this defense he will get a decent share of snaps at least.

2011
1(9) Tyron Smith T USC - Grand Slam.
2(40) Bruce Carter OLB North Carolina - Beast.
3(71) DeMarco Murray RB Oklahoma - Solid pick but injury prone.
4(110) David Arkin T Missouri St. - Can't play.
5(143) Josh Thomas CB Buffalo - Swing and a miss.
6(176) Dwayne Harris WR East Carolina - Could be an emerging return man.
7(220) Shaun Chapas FB Georgia - Not an NFL player.
7(252) Bill Nagy C Wisconsin - Shown nothing and injury prone.

Two outstanding players at the top and another that could be if he could ever stay on the field. The last 5 picks were a waste unless Harris sticks as an impact return man and/or receiver.

Smith, Carter and Murray are big hits; all three. Arkin can't grade. Harris incomplete, too. Nagy incomplete. Generally for you one to three SDs toward the end of the negative side of the spectrum.

2012
1(6) Morris Claiborne CB LSU - Actually cost 1(14) and 2(45). Nice player, waaaaaay overpaid for him. No impact whatsoever.
3(81) Tyrone Crawford DE Boise St. - Has shown nothing yet to warrant the pick but it's still early.
4(113) Kyle Wilber OLB Purdue - Is he on the team? Oh.
4(135) Matt Johnson S Eastern Washington - Evil Knievel had less injuries. Which could be saving us from seeing he can't play. Like his draft grade outside of Dallas suggests.
5(152) Danny Coale WR Virginia Tech - Practice squad.
6(186) James Hanna TE Oklahoma - Hasn't done anything but hasn't had a chance yet either. A complete unknown.
7(222) Caleb McSurdy ILB Montana St. - Everybody's favorite lunch pail pick. Then camp started. Selling insurance in the fall of 2013.

We stand a very good chance of coming out of the 2012 draft with, wait for it, a cornerback. ~confetti~.....~party noise makers~

More negative hyperbole. Claiborne has played well above the normal rookie CB even a top ten one. His cost is a separate issue to his play. Crawford plays well esp for being an injured rookie. He had trouble walking off the field in the Atl game and he was still getting decent pressure. I look for him to be at least pretty dang good. The rest get incompletes as they should with Hanna being an intriguing pick so far.

Now I would agree this three year clip is better than Jerry's norm, but Jerry's norm is horrific. There's a huge gap from that to quality and I think it's a real stretch to claim we're on a "pretty good run" here with our drafting. In fact, if you look at the 4th round on, when teams build their quality depth, we're still pretty bad.

Would I like better? Sure but the haul is pretty decent and may turn out a good deal better than that.

[Mr_Bill]

I don't care who says it. Anyone who tries to tell me Jerry Jones is kind of like an athletic director, an empty suit and doesn't routinely exercise his power as GM and final decision maker on this team is wrong. Way wrong. He wouldn't covet the gig so much if he didn't like the power.

I'm literally embarrassed that we even have to have this debate.

Right on cue. :rolleyes:

[JBell523]

Our last three drafts that equates to a "pretty good run", with a reasonable outlook on each pick....

2010
1(24) Dez Bryant WR Oklahoma St. - This looks more and more like a bad decision by the day.
2(55) Sean Lee ILB Penn St. - Injury concerns but still a hit.
4(126) Akwasi Owusu-Ansah CB Indiana (Pa.) - Wasted pick.
6(179) Sam Young T Notre Dame - Garbage.
6(196) Jamar Wall CB Texas Tech - Couldn't play.
7(234) Sean Lissemore - Looks like a decent role player. Hit.

So what we have here is one really good player but he's injury prone. He may or may not have a great career because of it. Dez is an infant mentally. We all know he's not reaching his potential. Lissemore is a rotational sub.

2011
1(9) Tyron Smith T USC - Grand Slam.
2(40) Bruce Carter OLB North Carolina - Beast.
3(71) DeMarco Murray RB Oklahoma - Solid pick but injury prone.
4(110) David Arkin T Missouri St. - Can't play.
5(143) Josh Thomas CB Buffalo - Swing and a miss.
6(176) Dwayne Harris WR East Carolina - Could be an emerging return man.
7(220) Shaun Chapas FB Georgia - Not an NFL player.
7(252) Bill Nagy C Wisconsin - Shown nothing and injury prone.

Two outstanding players at the top and another that could be if he could ever stay on the field. The last 5 picks were a waste unless Harris sticks as an impact return man and/or receiver.

2012
1(6) Morris Claiborne CB LSU - Actually cost 1(14) and 2(45). Nice player, waaaaaay overpaid for him. No impact whatsoever.
3(81) Tyrone Crawford DE Boise St. - Has shown nothing yet to warrant the pick but it's still early.
4(113) Kyle Wilber OLB Purdue - Is he on the team? Oh.
4(135) Matt Johnson S Eastern Washington - Evil Knievel had less injuries. Which could be saving us from seeing he can't play. Like his draft grade outside of Dallas suggests.
5(152) Danny Coale WR Virginia Tech - Practice squad.
6(186) James Hanna TE Oklahoma - Hasn't done anything but hasn't had a chance yet either. A complete unknown.
7(222) Caleb McSurdy ILB Montana St. - Everybody's favorite lunch pail pick. Then camp started. Selling insurance in the fall of 2013.

We stand a very good chance of coming out of the 2012 draft with, wait for it, a cornerback. ~confetti~.....~party noise makers~

Now I would agree this three year clip is better than Jerry's norm, but Jerry's norm is horrific. There's a huge gap from that to quality and I think it's a real stretch to claim we're on a "pretty good run" here with our drafting. In fact, if you look at the 4th round on, when teams build their quality depth, we're still pretty bad.
Easily my favorite poster on CZ.

[Idgit]

Easily my favorite poster on CZ.

How nice for you. Risen Star's a fine poster. He just happens to be wrong about how much talent we've been able to add to the roster the last three seasons.

Yet the drama persists with other threads, doesn't it?

Missed this earlier. The 'drama' in the other threads right now is just a bunch of depressed Cowboys fans who don't handle their frustration and disappointment very well. It poisons debate, mostly because the unhappy try desperately to make every thread about whatever they happen to be unhappy about, and it's annoying.

I distinguish it from the problems you get when there's personal dislike between posters that lets discussions become about the posters rather than the football topics. It's a fine line, and one I've crossed over a few times myself, but it's an important distinction.

[Risen Star]

How nice for you. Risen Star's a fine poster. He just happens to be wrong about how much talent we've been able to add to the roster the last three seasons.

I'm wrong? How so? I've pretty much said the 1st through 3rd round picks aren't an issue the last three years but we haven't added much from the 4th round on.

I don't include UDFAs because your comment dealt with the draft. That isn't the draft. That's after the draft. Of course I have a completely different opinion on Phil Costa than you do anyway.

I also don't prop up 4th round picks if they play in a few games for a couple of teams. Nor do I crown a return man for one return. See Dantzler, Woodrow. You're grading on a fan curve. The fact of the matter is only one player taken from rounds 4-7 the last three years has a real role in the offense or defense of this team. Sean Lissemore.

Now could this change? Sure. Wilber could arrive. A team of doctors could patch Matt Johnson back together. But as we sit here today, there's been almost nobody you can claim is quality depth. We have a crisis along our interior OL. Our 4th round pick from 2011 should help to fill it. Instead we're sifting through the veteran scrap heap to find anything serviceable and giving up more picks in the process. So I'm failing to see all this talent we're adding. I see top heavy draft classes. Which is an admitted improvement. Under Jerry, they usually don't weigh anything. But a "pretty good run" it does not make.

[Risen Star]

Easily my favorite poster on CZ.

You http://cdn-static.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeek/files/styles/insert_main_wide_image/public/cable-guy.jpg (http://cdn-static.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeek/files/styles/insert_main_wide_image/public/cable-guy.jpg) Me

[ConstantReboot]

Ciskowski doesn't get to draft anyone. He compiles the information and leaves it for the decision makers on the team to decide.

But if you feel that way, what do you say about Ciskowski's boss, the VP of Personnel, only having the gig because he's the Owner's son?

And what has Ciskowski proven anyway? Has he ever been part of a winner?

Yes he doesn't get to draft anyone and makes recommendations to drafting certain players. So far, the results speak for themselves. I think he has done a pretty good job for what he does. Just look at who we drafted the last few years and you can see evidence that our personnel is now being filled with good quality players.

Now let me ask you this - would you welcome another one of Garrett's brothers to do the compilation and helping to selecting and drafting players? I wouldn't. I want someone who has proven of bringing results to his profession rather than someone getting the job just because his the brother of the head coach.

[Risen Star]

Yes he doesn't get to draft anyone and makes recommendations to drafting certain players. So far, the results speak for themselves. I think he has done a pretty good job for what he does. Just look at who we drafted the last few years and you can see evidence that our personnel is now being filled with good quality players.

Now let me ask you this - would you welcome another one of Garrett's brothers to do the compilation and helping to selecting and drafting players? I wouldn't. I want someone who has proven of bringing results to his profession rather than someone getting the job just because his the brother of the head coach.

First, you avoided my very relevant question. If the thought of a Garrett coming in to be the assistant to the VP of Personnel upsets you, then what do you have to say about Stephen Jones heading our personnel department all these years simply because he's the owner's son?

What results speak for themselves? Usually people say that when the results back up their stance. If we're going by results, every single member of the front office of this team would have been fired years ago, Tom Ciskowski included.

Seriously. What am I missing? Because all I've seen is a team with talent issues.

To answer your question, no....I probably wouldn't like a Garrett getting the gig. It would feel like the same nepotism that has Stephen Jones pretending he's a personnel expert. I love this team. I want it ran by the best. Not taken hostage by family.

[Alexander]

I believe the samething was said when Ireland went to Miami with Bill.

Ireland was dubbed an "information gatherer" by Jerry Jones himself.

So Ciskowski suddenly is more than that?

It does not matter who gathers the information.

The GM still has the final say.

What Ryan is implying is that Ciskowski found him good talent and Jerry Jones concurred.

Well, that's just amazing news.

Ryan asked for the talent just like the myriad of other coaches that have had Jones' ear over the years. That still does not excuse his complete and utter ineptitude in knowing personnel, intimately, like the majority of general managers in this league.

Wade Phillips campaigned for Jason Williams. That did not work out too well.

One person had to allow the pick to go through and it was not Ciskowski.

[Idgit]

I'm wrong? How so? I've pretty much said the 1st through 3rd round picks aren't an issue the last three years but we haven't added much from the 4th round on.

I don't include UDFAs because your comment dealt with the draft. That isn't the draft. That's after the draft. Of course I have a completely different opinion on Phil Costa than you do anyway.

I also don't prop up 4th round picks if they play in a few games for a couple of teams. Nor do I crown a return man for one return. See Dantzler, Woodrow. You're grading on a fan curve. The fact of the matter is only one player taken from rounds 4-7 the last three years has a real role in the offense or defense of this team. Sean Lissemore.

Now could this change? Sure. Wilber could arrive. A team of doctors could patch Matt Johnson back together. But as we sit here today, there's been almost nobody you can claim is quality depth. We have a crisis along our interior OL. Our 4th round pick from 2011 should help to fill it. Instead we're sifting through the veteran scrap heap to find anything serviceable and giving up more picks in the process. So I'm failing to see all this talent we're adding. I see top heavy draft classes. Which is an admitted improvement. Under Jerry, they usually don't weigh anything. But a "pretty good run" it does not make.

Yes. You're wrong. The point is, we're selecting players from college well right now, and I'm happy to see that continue. If you care to parse that in order to dance around the reality of the point I'm making, I won't beg to argue with you about it. It's the same scouts, the same coaches, selecting the same starters from the same batch of college players. You know it. I know it. Everyone reading the thread knows it.

If you don't look at games started or years in the league to evaluate the league-worthiness of players, that's also on you. It's relevant, and the Cowboys do a decent job at finding players who can at least fill roles. Not every draft pick makes a squad. Not all of them are active for games. Not all of them make it to their second contracts. The fact is, there are percentages for these things, and, while you may be unhappy with what you've seen out of Dallas's picks recently, relative to the competition, they don't do a bad job. That is, unless for whatever reason you don't want to credit them for finding starters in college free agency for no other reason than it unravels your point.

Finally, re: Harris, if you don't want to consider 18.9 yards/return and being 2nd in the NFL in a limited sample 'emerged' then that's fine with me, too, but don't pretend I'm the one grading on the curve. Also, 'emerged' and 'crowned' do not mean the same thing. If you're not willing to judge the guy on his performance because you're not sure it's going to continue, that's your prerogative, but let's just make sure we're clear that I'm going off of performance here, and not my expectation. Might he regress? Sure. We can then say he submerged if that makes you feel better about throwing around that particular adjective.

[Bluestang]

2008:

2(36) = Jordy Nelson (WR) - Had his breakout year in 2011, now a starter
2(56) = Brian Bohm (QB) - waived in 2009, now plays for the Las Vegas Locomotives
2(60) = Patrick Lee (DB) - waived in 2011, now plays with the Oakland Raiders
3(91) = Jermichael Finley (TE) - starter w/ 15 career TDs
4(102) = Jeremy Thompson (DE) - waived in 2009, retired in 2010 with undisclosed medical condition
4(135) = Josh Sitton (T) - become the starter in 2009, named a Pro Bowl alternate in 2010
5(150) = Breno Giacomini (T) - waived in 2010, is currently on the Seahawks roster as a starter
7(209) = Matt Flynn (QB) - back-up QB who was not retained in 2012 and signed with the Seahawks and couldn't beat a rookie QB for starting job
7(217) = Brett Swain (WR) - waived in 2011, now is with the 49ers

2009:

1(9) = B.J. Raji (DT) - became the starter in 2010, selected to the Pro Bowl in 2011, still the starting NT for the defense
1(26) = Clay Matthews (LB) - Enough said, right?
4(109) = T.J. Lang (T) - became the starter in 2011
5(145) = Quinn Johnson (RB) - waived in 2010, now with the Tennesee Titans
5(162) = Jamon Meredith (T) - made the PS that year, but then signed with the Bills that year. Now is with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
5(182) = Jarius Wynn (DE) - waived in 2010, now with the Tennesse Titans
6(187) = Brandon Underwood (DB) - waived in 2011, now with the Oaklnad Raiders
7(218) = Brad Jones (LB) - started last 3 games this season after injuries

2010:

1(23) = Bryan Bulaga (T) - Current starter
2(56) = Mike Neal (DE) - has a career 9 tackles, 3 sack, 1 forced fumble
3(71) = Morgan Burnett (DB) - starting FS
5(154) = Andrew Quarless (TE) - has 1 career TD
5(169) = Marshall Newhouse (G) - inactive all year for his rookie season, now the starting LT
6(193) = James Starks (RB) - also has 1 career rushing TD
7(230) = C.J. Wilson (DE) - career 10 games started w/ 3.5 sacks

2011:
1(32) = Derek Sherrod (T) - hasn't started a single game
2(64) = Randall Cobb (WR) - started 4 games this year after injuries at the WR position, has 6 TDs on the year, 7 TDs for his career
3(96) = Alex Green (RB) - started 3 games this year after injuries, 0 career TDs
4(131) = Davon House (DB) - special teamer
5(141) = D.J. Williams (TE) - started 2 games this season after injuries
6(179) = Caleb Schlauderaff (OL) - traded to NYJ for undisclosed pick
6(186) = D.J. Smith (LB) - started in 6 games this year due to injuries
6(197) = Ricky Elmore (DL) - waived after training camp, now is with the Cleveland Browns
7(218) = Ryan Taylor (TE) - has one career TD, backup player
7(233) = Lawrnce Guy (DT) - went IR is rookie season, then made the PS the following year. The Colts signed him off the practice squad

2012:

1(28) = Nick Perry (DE) - selected as a nickel rusher, now is on IR
2(51) = Jerel Worthy (DT) - credited with two official game starts
2(62) = Casey Hayward (DB) - started the last 3 games, intercepted 4 passes and named NFL defensive rookie of the month
4(132) = Mike Daniels (DT) - third string DE, w/ no career stats
4(133) = Jerron McMillian (SS) - second string SS
5(163) = Terrell Manning (OLB) - third string MLB
7(241) = Andrew Datko (T) - currently on the PS
7(243) = B.J. Coleman (QB) - currently on the PS



Are we seeing a pattern yet?

[Risen Star]

Yes. You're wrong. The point is, we're selecting players from college well right now, and I'm happy to see that continue. If you care to parse that in order to dance around the reality of the point I'm making, I won't beg to argue with you about it. It's the same scouts, the same coaches, selecting the same starters from the same batch of college players. You know it. I know it. Everyone reading the thread knows it.

So basically despite everything I just said about the Cowboys' picks in the 4th through 7th round being factual and only 1 useful depth player currently is on the roster from it, they are doing a quality job of finding talent there because you say so.

Facts. You.

I'm weighing it out. Give me a minute.

Ya know what? They're on a hell of a run. I can feel another decent depth player coming in those rounds within the next three years. Hold on to your hat.

If you don't look at games started or years in the league to evaluate the league-worthiness of players, that's also on you. It's relevant, and the Cowboys do a decent job at finding players who can at least fill roles. Not every draft pick makes a squad. Not all of them are active for games. Not all of them make it to their second contracts. The fact is, there are percentages for these things, and, while you may be unhappy with what you've seen out of Dallas's picks recently, relative to the competition, they don't do a bad job. That is, unless for whatever reason you don't want to credit them for finding starters in college free agency for no other reason than it unravels your point.Good luck finding the right shade of lipstick for the pig that is Akwasi Owusu-Ansah. Cmon, man. I actually liked the pick. I was wrong. He has been a complete waste. He's done nothing in Dallas to make anyone think otherwise. If you can't admit that was a bad pick, you just aren't being reasonable.

Finally, re: Harris, if you don't want to consider 18.9 yards/return and being 2nd in the NFL in a limited sample 'emerged' then that's fine with me, too, but don't pretend I'm the one grading on the curve. Also, 'emerged' and 'crowned' do not mean the same thing. If you're not willing to judge the guy on his performance because you're not sure it's going to continue, that's your prerogative, but let's just make sure we're clear that I'm going off of performance here, and not my expectation. Might he regress? Sure. We can then say he submerged if that makes you feel better about throwing around that particular adjective.Yeah, Harris has done well in his brief time as a returner this year. But this is like crowning (no difference than emerged) a RB for carrying a 5.0 yards per carry through his first three games. Woody Dantzler had a very brief, very productive stint as a returner.......and that was about that.

If we're sitting here a year from now still talking about Harris' quality punt returning, then we can say he's legit and raise the Cowboys' total to a backup DL and a punt returner out of the 14 picks they had in those rounds the last three years.

It's the kind of run Larry Flynt can only dream of.

[preacher238]

:laugh2:

:lmao2: :lmao:

Somehow this is all that needs to be said....Good Googly Moogly...

[preacher238]

One south-bound basket to go please.....

[Idgit]

2008:

2(36) = Jordy Nelson (WR) - Had his breakout year in 2011, now a starter
2(56) = Brian Bohm (QB) - waived in 2009, now plays for the Las Vegas Locomotives
2(60) = Patrick Lee (DB) - waived in 2011, now plays with the Oakland Raiders
3(91) = Jermichael Finley (TE) - starter w/ 15 career TDs
4(102) = Jeremy Thompson (DE) - waived in 2009, retired in 2010 with undisclosed medical condition
4(135) = Josh Sitton (T) - become the starter in 2009, named a Pro Bowl alternate in 2010
5(150) = Breno Giacomini (T) - waived in 2010, is currently on the Seahawks roster as a starter
7(209) = Matt Flynn (QB) - back-up QB who was not retained in 2012 and signed with the Seahawks and couldn't beat a rookie QB for starting job
7(217) = Brett Swain (WR) - waived in 2011, now is with the 49ers

2009:

1(9) = B.J. Raji (DT) - became the starter in 2010, selected to the Pro Bowl in 2011, still the starting NT for the defense
1(26) = Clay Matthews (LB) - Enough said, right?
4(109) = T.J. Lang (T) - became the starter in 2011
5(145) = Quinn Johnson (RB) - waived in 2010, now with the Tennesee Titans
5(162) = Jamon Meredith (T) - made the PS that year, but then signed with the Bills that year. Now is with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
5(182) = Jarius Wynn (DE) - waived in 2010, now with the Tennesse Titans
6(187) = Brandon Underwood (DB) - waived in 2011, now with the Oaklnad Raiders
7(218) = Brad Jones (LB) - started last 3 games this season after injuries

2010:

1(23) = Bryan Bulaga (T) - Current starter
2(56) = Mike Neal (DE) - has a career 9 tackles, 3 sack, 1 forced fumble
3(71) = Morgan Burnett (DB) - starting FS
5(154) = Andrew Quarless (TE) - has 1 career TD
5(169) = Marshall Newhouse (G) - inactive all year for his rookie season, now the starting LT
6(193) = James Starks (RB) - also has 1 career rushing TD
7(230) = C.J. Wilson (DE) - career 10 games started w/ 3.5 sacks

2011:
1(32) = Derek Sherrod (T) - hasn't started a single game
2(64) = Randall Cobb (WR) - started 4 games this year after injuries at the WR position, has 6 TDs on the year, 7 TDs for his career
3(96) = Alex Green (RB) - started 3 games this year after injuries, 0 career TDs
4(131) = Davon House (DB) - special teamer
5(141) = D.J. Williams (TE) - started 2 games this season after injuries
6(179) = Caleb Schlauderaff (OL) - traded to NYJ for undisclosed pick
6(186) = D.J. Smith (LB) - started in 6 games this year due to injuries
6(197) = Ricky Elmore (DL) - waived after training camp, now is with the Cleveland Browns
7(218) = Ryan Taylor (TE) - has one career TD, backup player
7(233) = Lawrnce Guy (DT) - went IR is rookie season, then made the PS the following year. The Colts signed him off the practice squad

2012:

1(28) = Nick Perry (DE) - selected as a nickel rusher, now is on IR
2(51) = Jerel Worthy (DT) - credited with two official game starts
2(62) = Casey Hayward (DB) - started the last 3 games, intercepted 4 passes and named NFL defensive rookie of the month
4(132) = Mike Daniels (DT) - third string DE, w/ no career stats
4(133) = Jerron McMillian (SS) - second string SS
5(163) = Terrell Manning (OLB) - third string MLB
7(241) = Andrew Datko (T) - currently on the PS
7(243) = B.J. Coleman (QB) - currently on the PS



Are we seeing a pattern yet?

You could do this all day, couldn't you?

[TheDallasDon]

2008:

2(36) = Jordy Nelson (WR) - Had his breakout year in 2011, now a starter
2(56) = Brian Bohm (QB) - waived in 2009, now plays for the Las Vegas Locomotives
2(60) = Patrick Lee (DB) - waived in 2011, now plays with the Oakland Raiders
3(91) = Jermichael Finley (TE) - starter w/ 15 career TDs
4(102) = Jeremy Thompson (DE) - waived in 2009, retired in 2010 with undisclosed medical condition
4(135) = Josh Sitton (T) - become the starter in 2009, named a Pro Bowl alternate in 2010
5(150) = Breno Giacomini (T) - waived in 2010, is currently on the Seahawks roster as a starter
7(209) = Matt Flynn (QB) - back-up QB who was not retained in 2012 and signed with the Seahawks and couldn't beat a rookie QB for starting job
7(217) = Brett Swain (WR) - waived in 2011, now is with the 49ers

2009:

1(9) = B.J. Raji (DT) - became the starter in 2010, selected to the Pro Bowl in 2011, still the starting NT for the defense
1(26) = Clay Matthews (LB) - Enough said, right?
4(109) = T.J. Lang (T) - became the starter in 2011
5(145) = Quinn Johnson (RB) - waived in 2010, now with the Tennesee Titans
5(162) = Jamon Meredith (T) - made the PS that year, but then signed with the Bills that year. Now is with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
5(182) = Jarius Wynn (DE) - waived in 2010, now with the Tennesse Titans
6(187) = Brandon Underwood (DB) - waived in 2011, now with the Oaklnad Raiders
7(218) = Brad Jones (LB) - started last 3 games this season after injuries

2010:

1(23) = Bryan Bulaga (T) - Current starter
2(56) = Mike Neal (DE) - has a career 9 tackles, 3 sack, 1 forced fumble
3(71) = Morgan Burnett (DB) - starting FS
5(154) = Andrew Quarless (TE) - has 1 career TD
5(169) = Marshall Newhouse (G) - inactive all year for his rookie season, now the starting LT
6(193) = James Starks (RB) - also has 1 career rushing TD
7(230) = C.J. Wilson (DE) - career 10 games started w/ 3.5 sacks

2011:
1(32) = Derek Sherrod (T) - hasn't started a single game
2(64) = Randall Cobb (WR) - started 4 games this year after injuries at the WR position, has 6 TDs on the year, 7 TDs for his career
3(96) = Alex Green (RB) - started 3 games this year after injuries, 0 career TDs
4(131) = Davon House (DB) - special teamer
5(141) = D.J. Williams (TE) - started 2 games this season after injuries
6(179) = Caleb Schlauderaff (OL) - traded to NYJ for undisclosed pick
6(186) = D.J. Smith (LB) - started in 6 games this year due to injuries
6(197) = Ricky Elmore (DL) - waived after training camp, now is with the Cleveland Browns
7(218) = Ryan Taylor (TE) - has one career TD, backup player
7(233) = Lawrnce Guy (DT) - went IR is rookie season, then made the PS the following year. The Colts signed him off the practice squad

2012:

1(28) = Nick Perry (DE) - selected as a nickel rusher, now is on IR
2(51) = Jerel Worthy (DT) - credited with two official game starts
2(62) = Casey Hayward (DB) - started the last 3 games, intercepted 4 passes and named NFL defensive rookie of the month
4(132) = Mike Daniels (DT) - third string DE, w/ no career stats
4(133) = Jerron McMillian (SS) - second string SS
5(163) = Terrell Manning (OLB) - third string MLB
7(241) = Andrew Datko (T) - currently on the PS
7(243) = B.J. Coleman (QB) - currently on the PS



Are we seeing a pattern yet?

How dare you bring facts here???

Good god man, you know that doesn't fit agenda's

[Bluestang]

You could do this all day, couldn't you?


I could but what's the point with people and their agendas?

[Bluestang]

I could do the Patriots as well but it's pretty ugly as is.

Not only did they spend a 4th rounder on a kicker, but they spent a 5th on a punter and a 6th on long snapper too.

[visionary]

Our last three drafts that equates to a "pretty good run", with a reasonable outlook on each pick....

2010
1(24) Dez Bryant WR Oklahoma St. - This looks more and more like a bad decision by the day.
2(55) Sean Lee ILB Penn St. - Injury concerns but still a hit.
4(126) Akwasi Owusu-Ansah CB Indiana (Pa.) - Wasted pick.
6(179) Sam Young T Notre Dame - Garbage.
6(196) Jamar Wall CB Texas Tech - Couldn't play.
7(234) Sean Lissemore - Looks like a decent role player. Hit.

So what we have here is one really good player but he's injury prone. He may or may not have a great career because of it. Dez is an infant mentally. We all know he's not reaching his potential. Lissemore is a rotational sub.

2011
1(9) Tyron Smith T USC - Grand Slam.
2(40) Bruce Carter OLB North Carolina - Beast.
3(71) DeMarco Murray RB Oklahoma - Solid pick but injury prone.
4(110) David Arkin T Missouri St. - Can't play.
5(143) Josh Thomas CB Buffalo - Swing and a miss.
6(176) Dwayne Harris WR East Carolina - Could be an emerging return man.
7(220) Shaun Chapas FB Georgia - Not an NFL player.
7(252) Bill Nagy C Wisconsin - Shown nothing and injury prone.

Two outstanding players at the top and another that could be if he could ever stay on the field. The last 5 picks were a waste unless Harris sticks as an impact return man and/or receiver.

2012
1(6) Morris Claiborne CB LSU - Actually cost 1(14) and 2(45). Nice player, waaaaaay overpaid for him. No impact whatsoever.
3(81) Tyrone Crawford DE Boise St. - Has shown nothing yet to warrant the pick but it's still early.
4(113) Kyle Wilber OLB Purdue - Is he on the team? Oh.
4(135) Matt Johnson S Eastern Washington - Evil Knievel had less injuries. Which could be saving us from seeing he can't play. Like his draft grade outside of Dallas suggests.
5(152) Danny Coale WR Virginia Tech - Practice squad.
6(186) James Hanna TE Oklahoma - Hasn't done anything but hasn't had a chance yet either. A complete unknown.
7(222) Caleb McSurdy ILB Montana St. - Everybody's favorite lunch pail pick. Then camp started. Selling insurance in the fall of 2013.

We stand a very good chance of coming out of the 2012 draft with, wait for it, a cornerback. ~confetti~.....~party noise makers~

Now I would agree this three year clip is better than Jerry's norm, but Jerry's norm is horrific. There's a huge gap from that to quality and I think it's a real stretch to claim we're on a "pretty good run" here with our drafting. In fact, if you look at the 4th round on, when teams build their quality depth, we're still pretty bad.

great post

[Idgit]

great post

For posting with your eyes intentionally closed, it was outstanding. If trying to honestly evaluate the job we do bringing in talent from the college ranks, not so much.

Risen Star knows what he's doing. He's yanking chains, but I know he secretly knows just what I'm saying and just doesn't want to admit that it's pretty accurate.

[Risen Star]

For posting with your eyes intentionally closed, it was outstanding. If trying to honestly evaluate the job we do bringing in talent from the college ranks, not so much.

Risen Star knows what he's doing. He's yanking chains, but I know he secretly knows just what I'm saying and just doesn't want to admit that it's pretty accurate.

Hey, have fun pretending you know what I'm thinking. What I'm actually thinking has been posted in this thread. I'm not trying to yank anybody's chain. I'm giving you my honest opinion of our recent draft classes. Better, but not something we should call a good run. We've gotten nearly nothing out of 14 picks in the 4th through 7th rounds. We've got serious questions around Dez Bryant, DeMarco Murray and Sean Lee. I still can't get over using 1st and 2nd round picks on Morris Claiborne.

You should have just said improvement. But your foam finger wouldn't let you.

[Idgit]

Hey, have fun pretending you know what I'm thinking. What I'm actually thinking has been posted in this thread. I'm not trying to yank anybody's chain. I'm giving you my honest opinion of our recent draft classes. Better, but not something we should call a good run. We've gotten nearly nothing out of 14 picks in the 4th through 7th rounds. We've got serious questions around Dez Bryant, DeMarco Murray and Sean Lee. I still can't get over using 1st and 2nd round picks on Morris Claiborne.

You should have just said improvement. But your foam finger wouldn't let you.

;). Improvement. Good run. Semantics.

And my foam finger is not connected to my mouth. That metaphor doesn't even make sense.

Out of curiosity, how did you think our recent 4-7s stacked up to the Giants or Packers for the same period?

[Risen Star]

;). Improvement. Good run. Semantics.

And my foam finger is not connected to my mouth. That metaphor doesn't even make sense.

Out of curiosity, how did you think our recent 4-7s stacked up to the Giants or Packers for the same period?

I don't think it's semantics at all. Because improvement doesn't mean good. It means better.

The Vikings have improved this year. They're still not good.

How they compare to this team or that team is irrelevant. An attempt to distract from talking honestly about this team. The question is how are we doing? What I know is the Cowboys have not added any proven quality depth with those 14 picks with the exception of a very marginal Sean Lissemore. I never said that can't change. Of course it can. You're talking about the last three drafts. These are young players. But to look at those classes right now and think we're on some sort of hot streak makes me question if you can be objective with this team.

The metaphor makes perfect sense. The same thought process that put the foam on your finger makes you say things like this.

[Idgit]

...How they compare to this team or that team is irrelevant. An attempt to distract from talking honestly about this team. The question is how are we doing? What I know is the Cowboys have not added any proven quality depth with those 14 picks with the exception of a very marginal Sean Lissemore. I never said that can't change. Of course it can. You're talking about the last three drafts. These are young players. But to look at those classes right now and think we're on some sort of hot streak makes me question if you can be objective with this team...

How they compare to other, good, teams is not relevant now? Interesting. I mean, not interesting, and not a sound argument.

You consider it 'talking honestly' about a team to evaluate them without any context? And we're still ignoring the early rounds and college free agency to prop of a charade of an argument regarding 'proven quality depth.' Well, that makes perfect sense.

I think you find the idea that the team is building depth under Garrett at odds with your campaign against the general management, and it's putting you in a bind you can't get out of. I think that bind has got you talking about foam fingers and trying to deflect the topic away from our recent track record in adding college talent and onto your interpretation of our relative success in drafting in a subset of the rounds that have been available to us. And then even your interpretation of our relative success, I mean, failure in those few rounds is off base.

You can question my objectivity all you like. You're not the first. On the flip side, I'm sure we'll find a thread somewhere down the line where I have something critical to say about the team again, and the universe will then swing back into a balance I can live with. We can sit around and talk about how objective I got all of a sudden.

[Hostile]

How they compare to other, good, teams is not relevant now? Interesting. I mean, not interesting, and not a sound argument.

You consider it 'talking honestly' about a team to evaluate them without any context? And we're still ignoring the early rounds and college free agency to prop of a charade of an argument regarding 'proven quality depth.' Well, that makes perfect sense.

I think you find the idea that the team is building depth under Garrett at odds with your campaign against the general management, and it's putting you in a bind you can't get out of. I think that bind has got you talking about foam fingers and trying to deflect the topic away from our recent track record in adding college talent and onto your interpretation of our relative success in drafting in a subset of the rounds that have been available to us. And then even your interpretation of our relative success, I mean, failure in those few rounds is off base.

You can question my objectivity all you like. You're not the first. On the flip side, I'm sure we'll find a thread somewhere down the line where I have something critical to say about the team again, and the universe will then swing back into a balance I can live with. We can sit around and talk about how objective I got all of a sudden.Here's a tip.

If you mention currently successful franchises having warts the response is either going to be "Did you really just compare this team to the ultra successful _________________?" or "I don't care how other teams do things, function, or cook tacos." Then it isn't relevant to the discussion.

But on a regular basis the same people saying one of those things will lament how good those teams are and will praise management, coaching, players, and vendors. Then it is relevant to the discussion.

Thus they can always have their cake and eat it too.

A great example is the recent video urging fans to get loud. Dallas doing it is an embarrassment, until people started pointing out other teams do it too, and they excused it as successful teams can do that.

No charge for the lesson. Back into the shadows for me.

[xwalker]

Here are the Bill Parcells drafts:

2003
1 CB Terence Newman
2 C Al Johnson
3 TE Jason Witten
4 OLB Bradie James
6 CB B.J. Tucker
6 WR Zuriel Smith
7 OT Justin Bates

2004
2 RB Julius Jones
2 OT Jacob Rogers
3 OG Stephen Peterman
4 CB Bruce Thornton
5 TE Sean Ryan
7 CB Nathan Jones
7 WR Patrick Crayton
7 CB Jacques Reeves

2005
1 OLB Demarcus Ware
1 DE Marcus Spears
2 OLB Kevin Burnett
4 HB Marion Barber
4 DE Chris Canty
6 S Justin Berlault
6 OT Rob Petitti
7 DE Jay Ratliff

2006
1 OLB Bobby Carpenter
2 TE Anthony Fasano
3 DE Jason Hatcher
4 WR Skyler Green
5 S Pat Watkins
6 DT Montavious Stanley
7 T Paul McQuistan
7 T E.J. Whitley

[Idgit]

Here are the Bill Parcells drafts:

2003
1 CB Terence Newman
2 C Al Johnson
3 TE Jason Witten
4 OLB Bradie James
6 CB B.J. Tucker
6 WR Zuriel Smith
7 OT Justin Bates

2004
2 RB Julius Jones
2 OT Jacob Rogers
3 OG Stephen Peterman
4 CB Bruce Thornton
5 TE Sean Ryan
7 CB Nathan Jones
7 WR Patrick Crayton
7 CB Jacques Reeves

2005
1 OLB Demarcus Ware
1 DE Marcus Spears
2 OLB Kevin Burnett
4 HB Marion Barber
4 DE Chris Canty
6 S Justin Berlault
6 OT Rob Petitti
7 DE Jay Ratliff

2006
1 OLB Bobby Carpenter
2 TE Anthony Fasano
3 DE Jason Hatcher
4 WR Skyler Green
5 S Pat Watkins
6 DT Montavious Stanley
7 T Paul McQuistan
7 T E.J. Whitley

Ooh. That's a good way to look at it, too.

[Zaxor]

you got to be kidding me not only does Risen Star want to have guards playing cornerback he now thinks Sean Lee is a joke...:lmao2:

[Hostile]

http://www.dallascowboys.com/multimedia/videos/Ryan_I_Plan_On_Beating_Them/51835912-986e-4163-b1d4-a889be95ec26

11:20 mark.

Will McClay and Tom "Cisco" Ciskowski...curious.

[Risen Star]

How they compare to other, good, teams is not relevant now? Interesting. I mean, not interesting, and not a sound argument.

You consider it 'talking honestly' about a team to evaluate them without any context? And we're still ignoring the early rounds and college free agency to prop of a charade of an argument regarding 'proven quality depth.' Well, that makes perfect sense.

I didn't ignore the early rounds. I've said several times in this thread that there isn't an issue with the early rounds. People can go back and look and see you're wrong.

I've ignored college free agency because your claim had nothing to do with it. You said we were on a pretty good run in the draft. That isn't college free agency. Only those on the wrong side of a debate keep searching for firmer footing. I'm addressing strictly your comment about a good run at drafting.

No....other teams struggling too, if that is the case, doesn't make the Cowboys any more successful. They either are or aren't doing a good job of finding talent. As of today, the 4th through 7th round picks the last 3 years, 14 in total, have produced near nothing. Sean Lissemore and a punt returner.

Now again, that could change. These are young players. But you crowned them as quality already. Of course you'll say you haven't, but you did. Otherwise you couldn't claim a pretty good run of drafting and the team doing a good job of acquiring talent. I would never make that claim on any team whose gotten such little production on day 3 of the draft.

I think you find the idea that the team is building depth under Garrett at odds with your campaign against the general management, and it's putting you in a bind you can't get out of. I think that bind has got you talking about foam fingers and trying to deflect the topic away from our recent track record in adding college talent and onto your interpretation of our relative success in drafting in a subset of the rounds that have been available to us. And then even your interpretation of our relative success, I mean, failure in those few rounds is off base.

That's rich. I'm breaking down each pick and talking specifically about the draft classes and I'm the one trying to deflect something. While you're all over the map talking about other teams and undrafted free agency, but you're on point.

Once again you attempt to get into my mind and tell me what I think. You don't have to wonder. Just ask me. The question is can you deal with what I think?

There isn't a fan of this team that would be happier if we were truly on a good run of stacking up quality draft classes. But I refuse to pretend it's so for rooting interest. A close look at each player tells you the production isn't there yet to make such a statement.

I'd bet every dollar I'll ever earn that you never heard of Matt Johnson before the Cowboys selected him. He hasn't played a down of meaningful football since. I'd bet the same that you consider Matt one of those good decisions in our pretty good run of drafting. That's the nonsense I'm talking about. I'll just never do that.

You can question my objectivity all you like. You're not the first. On the flip side, I'm sure we'll find a thread somewhere down the line where I have something critical to say about the team again, and the universe will then swing back into a balance I can live with. We can sit around and talk about how objective I got all of a sudden.

Certain statements are just too over the top. Like attempting to defend the 4th round pick of Akwasi Owusu-Ansah. Show me a Cowboys fan who doesn't call that a bad decision and I'll show you someone who can't be objective about the team.

That's right up there with Jerry Jones being an empty suit, an athletic director, or an owner who runs his team like every other.

[cowboyeric8]

I'm loving the amount of ownage in this thread.

[yimyammer]

I'm loving the amount of ownage in this thread.

Its funny but I get the feeling that no matter which side a person lands on the issues discussed here, they agree with this statement

[Hostile]

Its funny but I get the feeling that no matter which side a person lands on the issues discussed here, they agree with this statementI agree, but let me ask you this. Which side is backing their stance up with relevant facts, and which side is creating imaginary scenarios?

I see draft class after draft class being shared and then ignored despite those fitting the criteria. I see a Coach for the team talking about who does the drafting analysis and it is ignored.

[yimyammer]

I agree, but let me ask you this. Which side is backing their stance up with relevant facts, and which side is creating imaginary scenarios?

I see draft class after draft class being shared and then ignored despite those fitting the criteria. I see a Coach for the team talking about who does the drafting analysis and it is ignored.

No offense man but I don't know and I honestly don't care to do the work necessary to figure out which side makes a better case. I just want to see the damn Cowboys get on a winning streak so we can talk about that for a change.

I haven't seen the results I would like but I see lots of positives (and negatives too) but from what I can gather from reading all these various posts that it seems taboo for either side/extreme to admit they both might be a little wrong and a little right, so I try to glean whatever truth I think I've found from either perspective and keep an open mind to being swayed by further evidence as it presents itself.

Like I said, at the end of the day, I just want to see my Boys winning again and don't begrudge any fan for whichever perspective they hold. No side has cornered the market on truth...at least I know I haven't.

[Idgit]

I didn't ignore the early rounds. I've said several times in this thread that there isn't an issue with the early rounds. People can go back and look and see you're wrong.

I've ignored college free agency because your claim had nothing to do with it. You said we were on a pretty good run in the draft. That isn't college free agency. Only those on the wrong side of a debate keep searching for firmer footing. I'm addressing strictly your comment about a good run at drafting.

No....other teams struggling too, if that is the case, doesn't make the Cowboys any more successful. They either are or aren't doing a good job of finding talent. As of today, the 4th through 7th round picks the last 3 years, 14 in total, have produced near nothing. Sean Lissemore and a punt returner.

Now again, that could change. These are young players. But you crowned them as quality already. Of course you'll say you haven't, but you did. Otherwise you couldn't claim a pretty good run of drafting and the team doing a good job of acquiring talent. I would never make that claim on any team whose gotten such little production on day 3 of the draft.

That's rich. I'm breaking down each pick and talking specifically about the draft classes and I'm the one trying to deflect something. While you're all over the map talking about other teams and undrafted free agency, but you're on point.

Once again you attempt to get into my mind and tell me what I think. You don't have to wonder. Just ask me. The question is can you deal with what I think?

There isn't a fan of this team that would be happier if we were truly on a good run of stacking up quality draft classes. But I refuse to pretend it's so for rooting interest. A close look at each player tells you the production isn't there yet to make such a statement.

I'd bet every dollar I'll ever earn that you never heard of Matt Johnson before the Cowboys selected him. He hasn't played a down of meaningful football since. I'd bet the same that you consider Matt one of those good decisions in our pretty good run of drafting. That's the nonsense I'm talking about. I'll just never do that.

Certain statements are just too over the top. Like attempting to defend the 4th round pick of Akwasi Owusu-Ansah. Show me a Cowboys fan who doesn't call that a bad decision and I'll show you someone who can't be objective about the team.

That's right up there with Jerry Jones being an empty suit, an athletic director, or an owner who runs his team like every other.

I've explained exactly what I meant regarding bringing in college talent. It's not a debate. I was making a point, I needed to clarify it, I did, end of story.

There's no mystery here. The early picks are better picks and have a higher success rate than the middle picks because they're higher probability players. The college free agent picks have a higher number of players who have been successful picks despite being lower probability players than the mid-to-late picks simply because there are a lot more of them.

Add to this that the mid-round picks and below are, in general, slower to develop than the early picks because they tend to be developmental players from smaller schools with lesser facilities or because they have problems in their games they need to work on at the pro level which is why the weren't early picks to begin with, and remember that we're talking about what's still an open window for all of these players, and the rest of the pretense here evaporates completely.

Moreover, the same patterns appear with most teams, and we've seen--well some of us have seen--this exactly demonstrated in this thread. You can pretend all you like that the issue is something other than simple probabilities, and you can pretend that I see it the way it actually is because of a metaphorical foam finger or whatever. You're still demonstrably wrong.

And, for the record, I'm not telling you what you think. I'm saying that I don't believe for a minute that you actually believe some of the things you post. There's a difference. In short, you're too smart to believe some of the things you submit, and I'm too smart to take some of them seriously.

[Risen Star]

I realize you're not going to hit on a ton of late picks. I also know that it's early and some of these guys are projects. However, that doesn't change the fact they have produced nearly nothing so far and the one draft class of the three years we know most about, looks the worst. You need to find role players there at the minimum.

There simply isn't nothing there right now to say, OMG.....what a run we're on here.

You can make the claim we're doing a good job, but you can't do it and also breakdown the production of those picks. Because it just isn't there to back it up. Which is why you read things about other teams, undrafted free agency, a coach's ridiculously routine comment, things that have nothing to do with what was orginally said.

The Cowboys have had a good run in the draft the last three years? Show me within those draft classes.

[Prossman]

Personel wise this team is headed in the right direction. The only Glaring whole left is offensive line. Dallas has to fix this in the offseason. On defense we are a blue chip safety away from being a game changing. The players work hard and fight from whistle to whistle. We dont have a team full of prima donnas anymore. If we keep stacking up players like we have been drafting over the last 2-3 yrs we will have something. As far a Jerry, both Jimmy and Swtizer laid it out. The scouts and the coaches set the board, and Jerry does have the final say but for the most part gives the coaches what they want. At times he throws in a few they dont want. :D