DE nightmares-Is coaching the problem?

[Scotman]

I watched highly drafted and highly touted DEs come through Dallas now for several years. Some of them experienced success before they came (Wiley) and some of them experienced success once they were gone. Some never experienced any success (Carver). While all three of those I've mentioned performed like slugs here, did it really have to be that way?

I just keep wondering, we tend to blame these players but I have long felt that anyone of these guys might have been vastly more effective in another scheme or on another team.

Let's assume for just a moment that it hasn't been the players but indeed the scheme and/or coaching staff. If so, where exactly would the problem lie? With the head coach? But we've had several HCs. With the DE coaches? We've had several of those, too. Zimmer? Scheme?

I'm not asking as if I know, but asking because I wonder.

Thoughts?
Scot

[dargonking999]

the game is a team game, it is in part of coaching, it is in part of the inabilty of DE to play, all wrapped into one. JIMO

[Chief]

I think there are several reasons.

Let's start with Carver. He was highly productive at Arizona State and was considered a first-rounder by most clubs. The guy had some character flaws and weaknesses/addictions that helped derail his career.

Pittman: A reach by Jerry. Not a real bad player, but Dallas picked him too high.

Ekuban: I still believe (I'm in the minority, apparently) that Eb lacked natural football instincts. He was an explosive athlete, who lacked the "naturalness" that guys like Haley had. His back problem didn't help.

Wiley: He was awful at San Diego the last year or so, and was reportedly a locker room cancer. He was pretty good at one time, but I don't think this guy has worked hard enough to have an extended career. You can get by on natural ability for only so long. The great ones extend their careers by really working at it.

Having said all that, I'm not convinced Jim Jeffcoat is a very good coach. Apparently, Bill Parcells came to that conclusion, too.

Scheme? I don't know. You hear things about the hobbles Zimmer puts on the defensive ends. I don't know enough about football to know if that's true.

So, I think it's just a combination of things. The players were partly to blame, as well as Jeffcoat.

[dargonking999]

o and by the way, when wolvrine gets here, he's gonna post a foot long post about how zimmer is the problem

[LaTunaNostra]

Well, if Wiley had shown up here fresh off his early success in Buffalo, I'd be looking at Bill and Zimmer as inadequate coaches.

But Marty Schottenheimer had already had his fill of him. I don't think any scheme can compensate for slow downed legs and lack of motivation (which is what the big rap on him in San Diego was...to into playing MC at area clubs and fattening his little black book and not enough into Sundays in the fall).

Of course, Wiley maintained he had to concentrate too much on playing run D in Dallas, that his first assignment was too often not edge rushing per se. Really at this point he's nothing more than Eric Ogbogu with a better pedigree..a highly situational player....not a balanced dline starter who can play both run and pass.

But it sure is on Bill and Jerry for getting fooled.

[Nors]

Bad DE's, Bad coaching a combination.

Offense of Ailkman, Smith. Irvin, Novacek AND OLINE, makes a defense look great......

[MichaelWinicki]

I think there are several reasons.

Let's start with Carver. He was highly productive at Arizona State and was considered a first-rounder by most clubs. The guy had some character flaws and weaknesses/addictions that helped derail his career.

Pittman: A reach by Jerry. Not a real bad player, but Dallas picked him too high.

Ekuban: I still believe (I'm in the minority, apparently) that Eb lacked natural football instincts. He was an explosive athlete, who lacked the "naturalness" that guys like Haley had. His back problem didn't help.

Wiley: He was awful at San Diego the last year or so, and was reportedly a locker room cancer. He was pretty good at one time, but I don't think this guy has worked hard enough to have an extended career. You can get by on natural ability for only so long. The great ones extend their careers by really working at it.

Having said all that, I'm not convinced Jim Jeffcoat is a very good coach. Apparently, Bill Parcells came to that conclusion, too.

Scheme? I don't know. You hear things about the hobbles Zimmer puts on the defensive ends. I don't know enough about football to know if that's true.

So, I think it's just a combination of things. The players were partly to blame, as well as Jeffcoat.


Nice analysis Chief... very accurate.

The other thing about Carver is that he did not have a quick enough first step off the edge. While he could still beat college OT's off the edge he couldn't beat NFL tackles. But he seemed to develop into a decent DE against the run.

The funny thing is that Pittman and to some extent Ekuban were too.

Wiley was a "car wreck". :mad:

[Nors]

Well, if Wiley had shown up here fresh off his early success in Buffalo, I'd be looking at Bill and Zimmer as inadequate coaches.

But Marty Schottenheimer had already had his fill of him. I don't think any scheme can compensate for slow downed legs and lack of motivation (which is what the big rap on him in San Diego was...to into playing MC at area clubs and fattening his little black book and not enough into Sundays in the fall).

Of course, Wiley maintained he had to concentrate too much on playing run D in Dallas, that his first assignment was too often not edge rushing per se. Really at this point he's nothing more than Eric Ogbogu with a better pedigree..a highly situational player....not a balanced dline starter who can play both run and pass.

But it sure is on Bill and Jerry for getting fooled.


Ogbogu had 4 1/2 sacks as 3rd down rusher? I think Wiley has a beef with his role - candidly

[LaTunaNostra]

Ogbogu had 4 1/2 sacks as 3rd down rusher? I think Wiley has a beef with his role - candidly
You would. :rolleyes:

I don't care who you are - John Abraham has to play the run too, and get better at it as he does.

And if there HAD been someone to anchor the end other than Wiley, how would he have reacted to his demotion?

Ironically, by season's end, he was being pulled on PASSING downs.

Let's see what he does in Jacksonville (other than another turn on MTV Cribs).

But I think Jack Del Rio is in for another Hugh Douglasesque disappointment.

[Hostile]

There are a lot of combinations that lead to filure. Carver isn't even tearing up the Arena League. He came here with a swelled head, never worked hard and then had addictions derail him. Attitude was his iceberg.

Ekuban was pretty good at first. Injuries were his iceberg.

We haven't had stellar d-line coaching and frankly none of them were good enough to get the job done.

No one can successfully convince me that the blame lays strictly at the feet of the scheme or the coaching though some will try. At some point in time it is okay to say the scouting department was wrong. Or that the player might have done more if ________________. (Fill in the blank.)

I don't believe Ernie Stautner could have gotten more out of them than they gave. They just weren't good enough.

[AsthmaField]

I think it was a lack of talent along with the situation that many of them had been put in.

Wiley was just washed up. Carver, like Mike said, lacked the quickness to succeed... add his alcoholism to that and there was no way the guy could make it.

Pittman... not talented.

Ekuban... Cheif nailed it when he said the guy lacked football instincts. He just isn't a good fooball player. Talented, but didn't know how to use it. Leverage and angles are so important. That's innate. Either you have it or you don't. Like Cheif, I don't think Eb had it.

In a nutshell, I think it was poor drafting and a little of how the coaches used them. We expected Haley, and that just wasn't happening.

Now, by altering the schemes (not just the 3-4 but the 4-3 too) I think how we'll use the pass rushers will be different and where they're coming from will be different.

I always wondered why we always left our pass rushers right where everyone expected them to be.

I saw Green Bay and Philadelphia move Reggie White all over the line to take advantage of mismatches. Same with many other teams. But we always had our best pass rusher right where the offensive coordinators expected them to be. Plain, Jane system.

That's fine if you have the athletes who can win those matchups... but we haven't had that since about '95.

That's the main reason I'm excited about the defensive changes taking place in Dallas. Not because it's 3-4 or 4-3... but I think the philosophy will now be significantly altered and how we play and attack will be completely different.

I always enjoyed watching Parcell's defenses in NY... they were plain scary. Now, we've got the players to do that, or some version of that and it should be a completely different story for opposing offenses.

Even when we were ranked highly on defense... I don't think we scared anyone. I think we simply thwarted them. We just kept them from scoring. We didn't force things or create havoc.

I think we will now.

I don't think Zimmer has been the problem, *cough, Wolverine, Cough, HH, cough*... I think it's been our philosophy which has been the same since the late 80's when Jimmy Johnson took over. The league has adapted to that and we haven't had the horses for it.

It's time for a change and I for one think it will be very good.

[Juke99]

Ogbogu had 4 1/2 sacks as 3rd down rusher? I think Wiley has a beef with his role - candidly


Interesting that Wiley complained about having to play the run first...makes me wonder how many yards he would have been blown off the line if run defense wasn't his priority. As it was, he was consistently blocked out of every play.

Wiley was possibly the worst DE I have ever seen.

[Rack Bauer]

Well, if Wiley had shown up here fresh off his early success in Buffalo, I'd be looking at Bill and Zimmer as inadequate coaches.

But Marty Schottenheimer had already had his fill of him.


That's probably true, but Wiley did kinda get screwed as well. He was told he'd play LE (what he played in S.D.), but they moved him to RE right before the season started. When he wasn't effective at it they took him out on 3rd downs, not allowing him to rush the passer, eventhough he was told he'd be allowed to get after the QB.


I don't think it was worth it to sign Wiley either way, but I have no doubt him my mind that he would of been more effective if allowed to play where they told him he'd be playing, at LE instead of RE. And people that think it's no difference, well it is. Some guys can play either side with no problems. Myself, I feel extremely uncomfortable with my left hand on the ground going after the QB to my left. On the left side, with my right hand on the ground and going to my right, I feel a lot more comfortable.


But again, Wiley was a bad signing. I said that when it happened, but he still did get screwed, a little.

[jksmith269]

That's probably true, but Wiley did kinda get screwed as well. He was told he'd play LE (what he played in S.D.), but they moved him to RE right before the season started. When he wasn't effective at it they took him out on 3rd downs, not allowing him to rush the passer, eventhough he was told he'd be allowed to get after the QB.


I don't think it was worth it to sign Wiley either way, but I have no doubt him my mind that he would of been more effective if allowed to play where they told him he'd be playing, at LE instead of RE. And people that think it's no difference, well it is. Some guys can play either side with no problems. Myself, I feel extremely uncomfortable with my left hand on the ground going after the QB to my left. On the left side, with my right hand on the ground and going to my right, I feel a lot more comfortable.


But again, Wiley was a bad signing. I said that when it happened, but he still did get screwed, a little.


I agree with ya Rack..... I never understood why take a pass rusher out on Passing downs...That never made sense to me. Watch him get like 10 sacks this year in Jax.....

[O Skuul]

I think there are several reasons.

Let's start with Carver. He was highly productive at Arizona State and was considered a first-rounder by most clubs. The guy had some character flaws and weaknesses/addictions that helped derail his career.

Pittman: A reach by Jerry. Not a real bad player, but Dallas picked him too high.

Ekuban: I still believe (I'm in the minority, apparently) that Eb lacked natural football instincts. He was an explosive athlete, who lacked the "naturalness" that guys like Haley had. His back problem didn't help.

Wiley: He was awful at San Diego the last year or so, and was reportedly a locker room cancer. He was pretty good at one time, but I don't think this guy has worked hard enough to have an extended career. You can get by on natural ability for only so long. The great ones extend their careers by really working at it.

Having said all that, I'm not convinced Jim Jeffcoat is a very good coach. Apparently, Bill Parcells came to that conclusion, too.

Scheme? I don't know. You hear things about the hobbles Zimmer puts on the defensive ends. I don't know enough about football to know if that's true.

So, I think it's just a combination of things. The players were partly to blame, as well as Jeffcoat.


Very thoughtful post Chief, makes a lot of sense until I start to think about Tony Tolbert and Charles Haley, then this syndrome seems to point somewhere else. I think it could be the scheme, but I would tend to believe its almost always the talent.

[Juke99]

That's probably true, but Wiley did kinda get screwed as well. He was told he'd play LE (what he played in S.D.), but they moved him to RE right before the season started. When he wasn't effective at it they took him out on 3rd downs, not allowing him to rush the passer, eventhough he was told he'd be allowed to get after the QB.


I don't think it was worth it to sign Wiley either way, but I have no doubt him my mind that he would of been more effective if allowed to play where they told him he'd be playing, at LE instead of RE. And people that think it's no difference, well it is. Some guys can play either side with no problems. Myself, I feel extremely uncomfortable with my left hand on the ground going after the QB to my left. On the left side, with my right hand on the ground and going to my right, I feel a lot more comfortable.


But again, Wiley was a bad signing. I said that when it happened, but he still did get screwed, a little.


I dunno Rack, I watched Wiley very closely last year...he simply didn't have the physical tools any more...he was slow...he was very unathletic...he didn't anchor well....

I don't think he would have played well anywhere on the field.

Now the concession stand might have been a different story. :D

[AsthmaField]

That's probably true, but Wiley did kinda get screwed as well. He was told he'd play LE (what he played in S.D.), but they moved him to RE right before the season started. When he wasn't effective at it they took him out on 3rd downs, not allowing him to rush the passer, eventhough he was told he'd be allowed to get after the QB.


I don't think it was worth it to sign Wiley either way, but I have no doubt him my mind that he would of been more effective if allowed to play where they told him he'd be playing, at LE instead of RE. And people that think it's no difference, well it is. Some guys can play either side with no problems. Myself, I feel extremely uncomfortable with my left hand on the ground going after the QB to my left. On the left side, with my right hand on the ground and going to my right, I feel a lot more comfortable.


But again, Wiley was a bad signing. I said that when it happened, but he still did get screwed, a little.


Agreed, but I still think Wiley is a bad football player now. I watched him specifically on several occasions. The effort didn't seem to be there and the athleticism definately wasn't there. He got pushed around and embarassed.

I don't care if you're being played at a different position than what you were initially told you'd play... if you can play DE you don't get bullied like he was. You don't look less athletic than the lumbering OT's you face, and you don't look like you couldn't care less.

IMO he is a POS.

[Chief]

But again, Wiley was a bad signing. I said that when it happened, but he still did get screwed, a little.

I don't know. Based on the thickness of Dat Dude's little black book, I'd say he got screwed a lot.

[Juke99]

Agreed, but I still think Wiley is a bad football player now. I watched him specifically on several occasions. The effort didn't seem to be there and the athleticism definately wasn't there. He got pushed around and embarassed.

I don't care if you're being played at a different position than what you were initially told you'd play... if you can play DE you don't get bullied like he was. You don't look less athletic than the lumbering OT's you face, and you don't look like you couldn't care less.

IMO he is a POS.


Great minds thinking alike. :D

[Juke99]

I don't know. Based on the thickness of Dat Dude's little black book, I'd say he got screwed a lot.


This written by a guy who's AV states layman.

:D

[Rack Bauer]

But I think the biggest problem has been with the scheme (not the current scheme, but the scheme Zimmer put in during his second year as DCoord). When you don't allow your DL to attack and be aggressive you won't have a lot of sacks from them. I think Zimmer crawled into a shell after all those 200 yard rushers against his D in his first year as DCoord. I'm not saying we had the talent, but the talent was better then the numbers indicated. It's no surprise Ekuban had a career year after leaving Dallas. Again, not saying he is/was great, but he could of been better here if properly coached and put in more of an attacking scheme.

[AsthmaField]

Great minds thinking alike. :D


Apparently so!

But IMO this was an easy call. Wiley looked horrible.

[Juke99]

Apparently so!

But IMO this was an easy call. Wiley looked horrible.


Beyond horrible...as I stated earlier, I don't recall ever seeing worse DE play.

[Chief]

This written by a guy who's AV states layman.

:D

:eek:

[AsthmaField]

Beyond horrible...as I stated earlier, I don't recall ever seeing worse DE play.


Have you ever seen Rack play with his left hand on the ground?

[Hostile]

I don't know. Based on the thickness of Dat Dude's little black book, I'd say he got screwed a lot.Post of the day.

[Rack Bauer]

I dunno Rack, I watched Wiley very closely last year...he simply didn't have the physical tools any more...he was slow...he was very unathletic...he didn't anchor well....

Again, he was forced to play RE. He obviously wasn't comfortable with it. He said so himself. When you are put in a situation you aren't comfortable with you aren't gonna be the player you normally can be. Not saying he was great (he isn't/wasn't) but he very well could of been a step slower and/or not as good against the run cuz he wasn't playing on the side he's used to.


Jacob Rogers never could figure out how to play RT. I think Wiley had a hard time learning RE. Especially since they just moved him to RE a week before the season started.


if you can play DE you don't get bullied like he was.


I disagree, and I stress this again - I am NOT saying Wiley was good or anything close to it - but if you are playing out of position it can totally throw your game off. It would be like me playing WR (i'm a 240 lb FB). Of course that's extreme, but you get the point. When you're used to anchoring with your left leg behind you then are switched to the other side and have to anchor with your right leg behind you it makes a difference. I agree he is/was a POS, but his lack of abilities was magnified by putting him on the right side.

[O Skuul]

Wiley was possibly the worst DE I have ever seen.

Possibly?

I am an unabashed Wily hater, sorry :D

[Rack Bauer]

Have you ever seen Rack play with his left hand on the ground?


I thought I made it clear I wasn't defending Wiley. :rolleyes:


I guess the world really is black and white. There's no gray areas in this world. Double :rolleyes:


I played some DE a couple of games ago (TUFL semi-pro football) and they put me at RE. It just felt wrong. Some people can play either side (as a DE or an offensive Tackle) and some people can't.

[AsthmaField]

I disagree, and I stress this again - I am NOT saying Wiley was good or anything close to it - but if you are playing out of position it can totally throw your game off. It would be like me playing WR (i'm a 240 lb FB). Of course that's extreme, but you get the point. When you're used to anchoring with your left leg behind you then are switched to the other side and have to anchor with your right leg behind you it makes a difference. I agree he is/was a POS, but his lack of abilities was magnified by putting him on the right side.

Well, you may be right... and I understand you aren't saying he's a good player. I was a safety/WR so I was never put into a situation where I had to switch hands like that, so in all honesty, I don't know what it's like.

If you're saying it's that difficult, then I'll trust your judgement.

I still couldn't believe how horrid the guy played though.

[Juke99]

Again, he was forced to play RE. He obviously wasn't comfortable with it. He said so himself. When you are put in a situation you aren't comfortable with you aren't gonna be the player you normally can be. Not saying he was great (he isn't/wasn't) but he very well could of been a step slower and/or not as good against the run cuz he wasn't playing on the side he's used to.


Jacob Rogers never could figure out how to play RT. I think Wiley had a hard time learning RE. Especially since they just moved him to RE a week before the season started.





I disagree, and I stress this again - I am NOT saying Wiley was good or anything close to it - but if you are playing out of position it can totally throw your game off. It would be like me playing WR (i'm a 240 lb FB). Of course that's extreme, but you get the point. When you're used to anchoring with your left leg behind you then are switched to the other side and have to anchor with your right leg behind you it makes a difference. I agree he is/was a POS, but his lack of abilities was magnified by putting him on the right side.


Rack, I'm actually taking his playing out of position into consideration. I agree that his shortcomings were magnified but...

If you go back and watch some games from last year, Wiley is fat, he's slow, he's a clumsy mule when in pursuit...all of that speaks to a lack of athletic ability and physical skills which I feel would have been hugely detrimental to him playing any position on the field.

[AsthmaField]

I thought I made it clear I wasn't defending Wiley. :rolleyes:


I guess the world really is black and white. There's no gray areas in this world. Double :rolleyes:


I played some DE a couple of games ago (TUFL semi-pro football) and they put me at RE. It just felt wrong. Some people can play either side (as a DE or an offensive Tackle) and some people can't.


I was just kidding with you Rack. I know you weren't saying he was a good player. And I really think you're right about how much of an impact switching sides has.

You're just fun to kid with.

[LaTunaNostra]

That's probably true, but Wiley did kinda get screwed as well. He was told he'd play LE (what he played in S.D.), but they moved him to RE right before the season started. When he wasn't effective at it they took him out on 3rd downs, not allowing him to rush the passer, eventhough he was told he'd be allowed to get after the QB.


I don't think it was worth it to sign Wiley either way, but I have no doubt him my mind that he would of been more effective if allowed to play where they told him he'd be playing, at LE instead of RE. And people that think it's no difference, well it is. Some guys can play either side with no problems. Myself, I feel extremely uncomfortable with my left hand on the ground going after the QB to my left. On the left side, with my right hand on the ground and going to my right, I feel a lot more comfortable.


But again, Wiley was a bad signing. I said that when it happened, but he still did get screwed, a little.

He got a little screwed because he was told he would play at LE, which is the more balanced end position, which he wasn't suited for. But it must have become clear mightly fast to Bill and Zim from practices the confined space of the TE and RT was not where Wiley was going to shine in run defense.

On the other hand, any LT worth his salt could out maneuver or overpower Wiley, and beat him in space or with technique.

He couldn't get it done at the traditional speed rusher spot OR the strong side.
He couldn't pass rush or contain the QB. He chafed at the idea of stopping the run. I think there was a little convenient excuse making built in from the get-go because Bill originally wanted to move Ellis over. In fact, Wiley couldn't do much in any scenario.

[Juke99]

He got a little screwed because he was told he would play at LE, which is the more balanced end position, which he wasn't suited for. But it must have become clear mightly fast to Bill and Zim from practices the confined space of the TE and RT was not where Wiley was going to shine in run defense.

On the other hand, any LT worth his salt could out maneuver or overpower Wiley, and beat him in space or with technique.

He couldn't get it done at the traditional speed rusher spot OR the strong side.
He couldn't pass rush or contain the QB. He chafed at the idea of stopping the run. I think there was a little convenient excuse making built in from the get-go because Bill originally wanted to move Ellis over. In fact, Wiley couldn't do much in any scenario.


Yeah but other than that he was darn good.

:D

[LaTunaNostra]

Yeah but other than that he was darn good.

:D
Haha, Juke.

God I hate that man. :p:

He was a disgrace to Columbia AND to Compton, LOL

Good night!

[Juke99]

Haha, Juke.

God I hate that man. :p:

He was a disgrace to Columbia AND to Compton, LOL

Good night!


I do know how to clear a room. :D

'Night Musie.

[Chief]

he's a clumsy mule when in pursuit.

:thumbup:

Excellent job. Farm references deserve points, IMO.

[Juke99]

:thumbup:

Excellent job. Farm references deserve points, IMO.


Now you're scaring me....you've been hanging out with Winicki too much. :eek:

[MichaelWinicki]

Now you're scaring me....you've been hanging out with Winicki too much. :eek:


And that's suppose to be a bad thing? :)

[Juke99]

And that's suppose to be a bad thing? :)


Oh geez, look what just crawled in...

;)

[MichaelWinicki]

Oh geez, look what just crawled in...

;)

Well I'm just back from my daily "stalking"... :D

[Juke99]

Well I'm just back from my daily "stalking"... :D


Yes Mr NightCrawler, I figured as much.

http://mag.awn.com/issue8.02/8.02images/fingeroth02_X2_nightCrawler.jpg

Do you have any opinions on Marcellus Wiley?

[booboo]

I've never seen a DE on any team that was good enough to carry the entire DL.

I've alway thought of a DE as an opportunist at best.

First when the DL is hitting on all cylinder and the DE is having a good day then the opportunities will present themselves.

In Dallas's case we seldom ever see the DL firing on all cylinders, we just don't have the talent. IMO this is a direct fault on JJ's part by having to play Ellis and Glover in spite of ourselves and previously EK.

Bash away ladies.

[marsbennett]

I watched highly drafted and highly touted DEs come through Dallas now for several years. Some of them experienced success before they came (Wiley) and some of them experienced success once they were gone. Some never experienced any success (Carver). While all three of those I've mentioned performed like slugs here, did it really have to be that way?

I just keep wondering, we tend to blame these players but I have long felt that anyone of these guys might have been vastly more effective in another scheme or on another team.

Let's assume for just a moment that it hasn't been the players but indeed the scheme and/or coaching staff. If so, where exactly would the problem lie? With the head coach? But we've had several HCs. With the DE coaches? We've had several of those, too. Zimmer? Scheme?

I'm not asking as if I know, but asking because I wonder.

Thoughts?
Scot
Carver was a reach, big time...and Wiley was leftovers.

Ekuban and Ellis are the only real attempts to do something affirmative in round 1 through the draft. Ekuban needed another scheme and Ellis is panning out OK. Look at our overall failure in rounds 3-7 for the reason why our pass rush tosses salad.

[marsbennett]

I think there are several reasons.

Let's start with Carver. He was highly productive at Arizona State and was considered a first-rounder by most clubs. The guy had some character flaws and weaknesses/addictions that helped derail his career.

Pittman: A reach by Jerry. Not a real bad player, but Dallas picked him too high.

Ekuban: I still believe (I'm in the minority, apparently) that Eb lacked natural football instincts. He was an explosive athlete, who lacked the "naturalness" that guys like Haley had. His back problem didn't help.

Wiley: He was awful at San Diego the last year or so, and was reportedly a locker room cancer. He was pretty good at one time, but I don't think this guy has worked hard enough to have an extended career. You can get by on natural ability for only so long. The great ones extend their careers by really working at it.

Having said all that, I'm not convinced Jim Jeffcoat is a very good coach. Apparently, Bill Parcells came to that conclusion, too.

Scheme? I don't know. You hear things about the hobbles Zimmer puts on the defensive ends. I don't know enough about football to know if that's true.

So, I think it's just a combination of things. The players were partly to blame, as well as Jeffcoat.
I'd like to read your stuff more often. Think I'll lurk more often...seeings how this must be your reduced posting stompping grounds. Pittman and Carver were both reaches....and I think Pittman was part of a trade down then trade back up cutesy BS trade the Draft After Jimmah. What an ugly decade of drafting.

[dwmyers]

The biggest problem on our line the past few years has been the lack of a good right tackle. This may be a minority opinion but I hold to it. You can't have a good line if your defensive tackles are on their back more often than not. Guys like Michael Myers didn't help Ekuban one bit.

The problem stems from an inability to draft a defensive lineman of any kind, really, from about 1995 on. Willie Blade as a replacement for guys like Russell Maryland!? c'mon.

I also think DE has been overemphasized. If we'd had a pair of studs in the middle, or even a Jason Ferguson there, paired with Glover, then things change a lot.

Now why do I say that? Cause it's a lot easier to rush the passer on 3rd and 8 than it is on 3rd and 4.

To be plain: the line has been substandard since Hennings retired. And even with the addition of Ferguson, we're still thin at DT.

David.

[Billy Bullocks]

I'm not sure if it was really the coaching, Ellis turned out just fine. I would say that it has more to do with the players than the coaches. Pittman, Ekuban and Carver were all busts. Ekuban was a solid player, but he wasn't worth a 1st rounder, neither were the other 2.

The reason there's so much 3-4 talk around these parts comes directly from Parcells mouth, there just aren't enough good DE's coming out of college as there are OLB's. Freeney and Peppers don't come around that often. Suggs, great college DE, is now a OLB.

The reason I think the 3-4 is making such a big comeback is for those reasons. You can find way more servicable LB's than difference maker DEs. We haven't found one since Charles Haley played here, and most teams haven't really either. It took Green Bay a long time to replace White. Economics of the NFL these days are dictating the 3-4.

Back to the topic though, I think it was more the players than the coaching. Don't even look at just the DE's we drafted post Jimmy Johnson, look at all the players, if there was anywhere to place the blame it would be Jerry and the scouting dept. They didn't really produce too many lasting players over that span, and DE's were part of their drafted players. Fact is, coaching aside, we just didn't select good players with our picks.

[Chief]

The reason there's so much 3-4 talk around these parts comes directly from Parcells mouth, there just aren't enough good DE's coming out of college as there are OLB's. Freeney and Peppers don't come around that often. Suggs, great college DE, is now a OLB.

The reason I think the 3-4 is making such a big comeback is for those reasons. You can find way more servicable LB's than difference maker DEs. We haven't found one since Charles Haley played here, and most teams haven't really either. It took Green Bay a long time to replace White. Economics of the NFL these days are dictating the 3-4.


Good analysis.

I had a college coach tell me there are three reasons why the 3-4 is gaining in popularity.

One is the good 4-3 RDEs are just too hard to find. They're a rare breed. The big, versatile 3-4 OLBs are much easier to find.

Two, when you add the 3-4 OLB, this player is much more likely to be a factor on special teams.

And three, it's easier to disguise pass-rushing schemes and blitzes in the 3-4. More unpredictable.

[Rack Bauer]

He got a little screwed because he was told he would play at LE, which is the more balanced end position, which he wasn't suited for. But it must have become clear mightly fast to Bill and Zim from practices the confined space of the TE and RT was not where Wiley was going to shine in run defense.

Incorrect. They switched Wiley to RE and Ellis back to LE cuz Ellis couldn't get comfortable at RE. I guess they figured better to have your best DE comfortable then to have the sorry DE comfortable. But the reason for teh switch was cuz of Ellis, not Wiley.



He couldn't get it done at the traditional speed rusher spot OR the strong side.


Again, the switch occured cuz of Ellis, not Wiley. Either way Wiley sucks. Just clarifying that for you.


I also think DE has been overemphasized. If we'd had a pair of studs in the middle, or even a Jason Ferguson there, paired with Glover, then things change a lot.


Ignorance shows through again. The Jags have the best DT duo in the NFL, and their DEs still sucked. DE's aren't just a product of how good the DTs are. Sure a good DT is helpful, but a DT does NOT make the DE.


I had a college coach tell me there are three reasons why the 3-4 is gaining in popularity.

One is the good 4-3 RDEs are just too hard to find. They're a rare breed. The big, versatile 3-4 OLBs are much easier to find.

Two, when you add the 3-4 OLB, this player is much more likely to be a factor on special teams.

And three, it's easier to disguise pass-rushing schemes and blitzes in the 3-4. More unpredictable.


Excellent post and correct on all accounts.

[Billy Bullocks]

Me Rack and Chief know whatsup. Wiley was just a bad DE. There's no makin excuses for the guy. He seems to think that it was a conspiracy to keep him off the field or something, we didnt give him 4 million to conspire against him. Obogu was just a better pass rusher than Wiley, and it probably pissed off Wiley. If Wiley was as good he thinks he is, some team would have signed him up in a second. His year of 12 sacks is long gone...

Good DT's has nothing to do with how productive your ends are, sure it helps, but DT's tie up Guards and the Center, the DE's take on the tackles. A good NT can help out the DT, but unless both of your DT's are requiring double teams, they arent helping your ends. Besides, Ellis would draw doubles, or at least have a back drift over to his side so Glover could catch 2 guys, so Wiley was usually alone on the right, and he still couldn't produce. Glad he's gone.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Incorrect. They switched Wiley to RE and Ellis back to LE cuz Ellis couldn't get comfortable at RE. I guess they figured better to have your best DE comfortable then to have the sorry DE comfortable. But the reason for teh switch was cuz of Ellis, not Wiley.

Again, the switch occured cuz of Ellis, not Wiley. Either way Wiley sucks. Just clarifying that for you.

I do not know what preseason games you were watching but Wiley looked absolutely horrible at LE. Parcells kept him in there one preseason game and he didnt start winning matchups until the 4th string came in.

I know that Ellis was not entirely thrilled with the switch but to say it wasnt a combination of both issues is just myopic.

Ignorance shows through again. The Jags have the best DT duo in the NFL, and their DEs still sucked. DE's aren't just a product of how good the DTs are. Sure a good DT is helpful, but a DT does NOT make the DE.

Wow, a guy who plays DE says something like this. He didnt say that good DT make DE play well. What he said is that a DE cannot play well unless the DTs are good.

I.E. if your DEs suck they will suck no matter what but bad DTs make bad DEs.

I guess you like being double teamed?

Look no farther than Carolina as proof of this. In the inverse, Wistrom's play declined lining up next to the DT's in Seattle providing further proof.

Ignorance?

Do not worry though Rack, Aristotle made a similar mistake in his logic.

[Rack Bauer]

Look no farther than Carolina as proof of this. In the inverse, Wistrom's play declined lining up next to the DT's in Seattle providing further proof.


Wistrom was never anything special to begin with. He's nothing more then solid. Just like Greg Ellis.



Do not worry though Rack, Aristotle made a similar mistake in his logic.


Blah blah blah blah blah... *yawn*


Had to get your "Jerk" post of the day out of the way early, huh?


Don't feel like dealing with your a****** posts today, FL. Just gonna go ahead and put you on ignore for today. Ok, Sandy?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Wistrom was never anything special to begin with. He's nothing more then solid. Just like Greg Ellis.

Blah blah blah blah blah... *yawn*

Had to get your "Jerk" post of the day out of the way early, huh?

Don't feel like dealing with your a****** posts today, FL. Just gonna go ahead and put you on ignore for today. Ok, Sandy?

Wistroms played declined when he was forced to play alongside lesser tackles the point stands. I just thought I'd point that out to you.

Jerk of the day?

You posted like what you have to say is gospel and I just pointed out how I felt that you were wrong or incomplete. Sorry if that makes you feel threatened.

You were the one that felt compelled to call someone ignorant and Im the jerk? Perhaps in ones own reflection thou should look, ad hominem boy.

And the Aristotle comment was actually a compliment. He was only the single most important man in the development of western culture and he made the same mistake in logic as you did. There is no mirror symmetry in logic or argumentation.

Its a very common misconception in looking at another's views; I thought it was funny you called him ignorant.

[booboo]

Incorrect. They switched Wiley to RE and Ellis back to LE cuz Ellis couldn't get comfortable at RE. I guess they figured better to have your best DE comfortable then to have the sorry DE comfortable. But the reason for teh switch was cuz of Ellis, not Wiley.






Again, the switch occured cuz of Ellis, not Wiley. Either way Wiley sucks. Just clarifying that for you.





Ignorance shows through again. The Jags have the best DT duo in the NFL, and their DEs still sucked. DE's aren't just a product of how good the DTs are. Sure a good DT is helpful, but a DT does NOT make the DE.





Excellent post and correct on all accounts.

Here, I did the leg work for you.

Main Entry: 1con·jec·ture http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?conjec01.wav=conjecture'))
Pronunciation: k&n-'jek-ch&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin conjectura, from conjectus, past participle of conicere, literally, to throw together, from com- + jacere to throw -- more at JET (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=jet)
1 obsolete a : interpretation of omens b : SUPPOSITION (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=supposition)
2 a : inference from defective or presumptive evidence b : a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork c : a proposition (as in mathematics) before it has been proved or disproved

[Sarge]

I agree with ya Rack..... I never understood why take a pass rusher out on Passing downs...That never made sense to me. Watch him get like 10 sacks this year in Jax.....

I'll take that bet.

[Rack Bauer]

I'll take that bet.


Yeah I don't know why he agreed with me then says he thinks Wiley will get 10 sacks. Wiley is garbage. I just said that by switching him to RE we made the garbage even worse.

[JakeCamp12]

It is a combination of talent, actual line coaching and scheme. I agree that Wiley is garbage and that Carver had too much personal baggage to be successful. Pittman was ok, but was a reach where he was drafted. The guy that I thought had talent and was let down by coaching and the scheme was Ekuban. From everything I read, he was a hard worker with no personal baggage. I think in his case, Zimmer was not creative with what he had. I think Ek would thrive in a 3-4 as an edge rusher. At one time he had a good explosive first step. Zimmer never let him rush from the edge, always made him put his hand down. I thought I remember seeing highlights from him in college rushing the QB from the edge standing up. I thought Ek had the talent to at least be a 10 sack guy in the NFL, but Zimmer never moved him around to take advantage of his athleticism. I think he is a case where coaching or at least uncreative scheme hurt him....

[Alexander]

They switched Wiley to RE and Ellis back to LE cuz Ellis couldn't get comfortable at RE. I guess they figured better to have your best DE comfortable then to have the sorry DE comfortable. But the reason for teh switch was cuz of Ellis, not Wiley.

This is correct to my recollection.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/story/DAL/7594197

We switch sides. I'm playing left side, which I played the last few years, and Greg Ellis (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12350) is going to the right side, which he's secretly been desiring for a while. He's happy about that and we still have La'Roi Glover (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/3507) in the middle with Leo Carson (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187506). We have a rotation of a couple other ends and tackles we're going to work in because in the Texas heat you have to stay fresh in the fourth quarter. And I just think right now it's just about intensity and attitude. We obviously know the talent's there where we could be No. 1 if we work hard. So it's just about having that mindset.

This experiment did not last long. It was pretty clear after a few exhibition games that we thought Wiley would be better with single blocking on the right side. It was then after the season concluded that he claimed he was lied to.

It is not a coincidence that he is back on the left side in Jacksonville.

[ravidubey]

Even when we were ranked highly on defense... I don't think we scared anyone. I think we simply thwarted them. We just kept them from scoring. We didn't force things or create havoc.


You'd have to go back to 1985 with Too Tall, White, Dutton, and Jeffcoat. Too Tall Jones was so damn underrated playing that "Flex" defense it hurts. Randy White had to be double teamed on every play. I remember a game vs. the Oilers when that defense had something like 12 sacks-- and we didn't even have very good defensive backs. Everson Walls was a ball-hawking free safety disguised as a cornerback. But that front four was special. Didn't Jeffcoat sack Joe Theisman 5 times in a game once? Can you imagine the havoc that crew would wreak today?

[Thefourteenthwarrior]

The scheme, the sceme, the sceme that is the problem. Unlike so many defenses in the nfl the cowboys defense is so vanilla its just disgusting. Our basic alignment of the 4 dl and 3 lbs 5-7 behind them is archaic. Even if the assignments don't change u still have to disguise the coverage or something. Our de's never have a chance to succeed because they are accounted for before the snap on every play. With no one else near the line of scrimmage, no threat of a blitz our dl is basically outmanned. We rush 4 against 5 o lineman, heaven help us if the offense keeps in a back or te to block then we're really outnumbered. How many times have we watched the cowboys for example play philly and see mcnabb have all day to make decisions. Our best d lineman is doubled (lately glover) and our best rush de is chipped by a te or rb. I believe the ends we have are adequate but they are not getting any help from the scheme. The o line is not under any pressure to make calls because nothing changes. If nothing else disguise the coverage fake the blitz or something, make the o line have to adjust some kind of way. Thats the only reason the 3-4 is effective it creates confusion at the line of scrimmage. You have to know who you have to block. Indecisiveness and confusion creates sacks.

Another reason why sceme and coordinator (zimmer) are to blame, the defense we run doesn't force the action. We rely on the offense to make mistakes when we don't blitz or apply pressure. Thats no way to influence mistakes or create turnovers. A lot of people were down on newman last year (including myself) til i started watching the def play. We run the worst version of the cover 2 scheme ever. Newman is a shut down corner who is being asked to play zone constantly. Its not newmans fault that his job is to play the short flat where slants and hitches are constantly completed in front of him. We could have drafted any corner in any round to play zone, bottom line this guy is being misused, just like roy williams. Williams one of the best in the box safeties in the game presently was being asked to play free safety, WHY? What we accomplished by doing that was shooting ourselves in both feet. Instead of finding a feasible replacement at fs we took our ss out of his natural position and hurt ourselves at both safety spots. That makes no sense at all, because he doesnt cover well enough to play fs. The secondary was in shambles all year, and how did we help them; by not bringing pressure and asking them to cover and extra 2 - 3 seconds. Not very smart at all. As all you cowboys fans remember when we went to the playoffs in parcells first year we blitzed more than we have in quite a while and the results were good. We weren't great offensively but we forced the action on def. So yes the scheme and the coordinator are to blame for all of this, i personally would have preferred to see zimmer go.

[Nors]

The scheme, the sceme, the sceme that is the problem. Unlike so many defenses in the nfl the cowboys defense is so vanilla its just disgusting. Our basic alignment of the 4 dl and 3 lbs 5-7 behind them is archaic. Even if the assignments don't change u still have to disguise the coverage or something. Our de's never have a chance to succeed because they are accounted for before the snap on every play. With no one else near the line of scrimmage, no threat of a blitz our dl is basically outmanned. We rush 4 against 5 o lineman, heaven help us if the offense keeps in a back or te to block then we're really outnumbered. How many times have we watched the cowboys for example play philly and see mcnabb have all day to make decisions. Our best d lineman is doubled (lately glover) and our best rush de is chipped by a te or rb. I believe the ends we have are adequate but they are not getting any help from the scheme. The o line is not under any pressure to make calls because nothing changes. If nothing else disguise the coverage fake the blitz or something, make the o line have to adjust some kind of way. Thats the only reason the 3-4 is effective it creates confusion at the line of scrimmage. You have to know who you have to block. Indecisiveness and confusion creates sacks.

Another reason why sceme and coordinator (zimmer) are to blame, the defense we run doesn't force the action. We rely on the offense to make mistakes when we don't blitz or apply pressure. Thats no way to influence mistakes or create turnovers. A lot of people were down on newman last year (including myself) til i started watching the def play. We run the worst version of the cover 2 scheme ever. Newman is a shut down corner who is being asked to play zone constantly. Its not newmans fault that his job is to play the short flat where slants and hitches are constantly completed in front of him. We could have drafted any corner in any round to play zone, bottom line this guy is being misused, just like roy williams. Williams one of the best in the box safeties in the game presently was being asked to play free safety, WHY? What we accomplished by doing that was shooting ourselves in both feet. Instead of finding a feasible replacement at fs we took our ss out of his natural position and hurt ourselves at both safety spots. That makes no sense at all, because he doesnt cover well enough to play fs. The secondary was in shambles all year, and how did we help them; by not bringing pressure and asking them to cover and extra 2 - 3 seconds. Not very smart at all. As all you cowboys fans remember when we went to the playoffs in parcells first year we blitzed more than we have in quite a while and the results were good. We weren't great offensively but we forced the action on def. So yes the scheme and the coordinator are to blame for all of this, i personally would have preferred to see zimmer go.

Our talent isn't the greatest. That said our passif 4-3 defense was indeed vanilla, rarely blitzed and put Roy into coverage. Thats heinous but was a knee jerk reaction to our RCB situation being a mess.... Coaching in this league matters too....

The 3-4 will be much more aggresive and cause issues for an Oline. iMaGiNe ThaT

[Scotman]

A sincere thanks for all the replies and input. There's a lot of opinions and information to chew on.

I'm hoping that whatever has caused us to have such an anemic pass rush and overall non-aggresive defense will be solved as this year progresses.

I agree with a lot of the opinions on here. I agree that we lacked talent, too. I had forgotten some of the question marks and problems some of these guys had brought with them.

But, I don't think the scheme and/or coaches get a walk on this. Zimmer apparently has some real talent at his disposal this year. I sure hope he does something exciting for the fans with it.

My dad always used to say that the secret to winning on defense was to put the QB on his butt early and often. Here's looking forward to some of that this year.

Thanks again,
Scot

[kartr]

I think there are several reasons.

Let's start with Carver. He was highly productive at Arizona State and was considered a first-rounder by most clubs. The guy had some character flaws and weaknesses/addictions that helped derail his career.

Pittman: A reach by Jerry. Not a real bad player, but Dallas picked him too high.

Ekuban: I still believe (I'm in the minority, apparently) that Eb lacked natural football instincts. He was an explosive athlete, who lacked the "naturalness" that guys like Haley had. His back problem didn't help.

Wiley: He was awful at San Diego the last year or so, and was reportedly a locker room cancer. He was pretty good at one time, but I don't think this guy has worked hard enough to have an extended career. You can get by on natural ability for only so long. The great ones extend their careers by really working at it.

Having said all that, I'm not convinced Jim Jeffcoat is a very good coach. Apparently, Bill Parcells came to that conclusion, too.

Scheme? I don't know. You hear things about the hobbles Zimmer puts on the defensive ends. I don't know enough about football to know if that's true.

So, I think it's just a combination of things. The players were partly to blame, as well as Jeffcoat.\


I think if you look at all of our previous good RDE's, they had one thing in common, a stud RDT next to them to take the pressure off. Look at the change in Ekuban's numbers once he went to Cleveland and played next to
I believe it was Gerard Warren. Now Warren's career hasn't been an over-
whelming success, yet he probably would be an upgrade over Brandon Noble,
Michael Myers and Leo Carson, so maybe the real problem is that we scrimped
on the d-line after Jimmy left and didn't put together a complete unit. Think
about this, do the Saints,Pats,Eagles,Vikings,ie. that is teams with good pass rushes spend more and higher draft picks on their d-lines than we have in the recent pass.

[Nors]

I think sometimes too much emphasis is put on rush from the edge - which is great. Best way to collapse a pocket is straight up the gut. Pressure up the middle is very disruptive to QB's....

[Thefourteenthwarrior]

Our talent isn't the greatest. That said our passif 4-3 defense was indeed vanilla, rarely blitzed and put Roy into coverage. Thats heinous but was a knee jerk reaction to our RCB situation being a mess.... Coaching in this league matters too....

The 3-4 will be much more aggresive and cause issues for an Oline. iMaGiNe ThaT
The 3-4 will be much more aggresive and cause issues for an Oline. iMaGiNe ThaT


In response to that i simply beg the question of how zimmer can coordinate a 3-4 when he can't even be creative with a 4-3 def. As i said earlier we havent had decent de's on our team because of the scheme. No de can put up with a solid double team on every play, and i believe that while many come here motivated none can succeed because of the scheme, which i talked about in an earlier post. So if zimmer is a decent coordinator we'll soon find out. I personally think he sucks, and should be gotten rid of as it would almost completely severe all the ties with the dave campo regime.

[Hostile]

I think sometimes too much emphasis is put on rush from the edge - which is great. Best way to collapse a pocket is straight up the gut. Pressure up the middle is very disruptive to QB's....There is some truth to that. By doing this you also allow the mobile QBs to leave the pocket to either side. Making pressure from the edge still necessary and in fact more so to contain and trap the ball. Very few QBs any more are taught to step up in the collapsing pocket like Aikman could and deliver an accurate throw at the last moment.

Every defense has flaws built right in. Even the magical 3-4, which still needs and needed the proper personnel to run.