Why have all of Jimmy's assistants stunk it up so far?

[TruBlueCowboy]

I was reading a link in the Zone to a rumor that said some Dolphins players were actually happy that Ricky Williams quit, because it forced Dave Wannstedt out of Miami.... and you know what, judging by what I've seen in Chicago and Miami, I don't have a hard time believing it.

Jerry Jones once said that anyone of 500 coaches could lead that 90's Cowboys team to a Super Bowl and after watching Switzer do it, and then the failure of so many of Jimmy's assistants, I'm really start to believe Jerry. Jimmy Johnson was a great coach, no one had balls of steel like he did. He wouldn't take crap from players, he would predict wins, he called trick plays at the craziest times, and he faced down the media during a 1-15 season. I'm wondering, though, if maybe we should be giving him credit for his GM skills more than his coaching skills. He hand-picked one of the most talented teams ever created, and he did a fine job in Miami creating a defense that kept Wannstedt employed for several seasons.

So what's up with all of Jimmy's assistants? Was it one of those cases where any coach would have looked good with that type of talent and cohesion?

Going over some of the coaches I remember:

Dave Wannstedt - Absolute failure in Chicago. Limited success in Miami, but mostly with Jimmy's guys.

Norv Turner - Absolutely failure in Washington except for one magical season. Stunk it up with the Raiders last year. With Randy Moss, Lamont Jordan and others, he finally has the most talented offense since the Triplets days, so this could be his final NFL test.

Butch Davis - Success in college I guess but failed miserably with the Browns. I don't know who we should be blaming for all those first round busts. Maybe the personnel management could be as much to blame for some of these guys problems as poor coaching?

Dave Campo - Need I say more?

Ernie Zampese - Okay, I know he's technically not a Jimmy man, but he was Norv Tuner's biggest influence. He joined the Pats after the Cowboys and Rams days, but was kicked out before the Belichick revolution began.

Hudson Houck - I guess he had some success with San Diego over the last few years.

I'm a little surprised that none of these guys ever went on to continued success with bigger and better things. I have a high opinion of Jimmy Johnson and thought he would have some type of coaching tree.

[Cajuncowboy]

Well Jimmy himself didn't exactlly light it up down in Miami. Plus look at all the talent on this team at that time. A whole lot to work with. PLus one other thing that you can't take with you. This team caught lightning in a bottle and kept it there for about 4 years. Even Switzer couldn't screw it up. And it seems like he tried.

[Mash]

Some assistants are just not cut out to be Head Coaches. Its a different ball game all together.

Some of those guys you mentioned are great assistants.

[Alexander]

Just because a group of assistants does well with a group of collected talent does not mean they are great head coaches.

Coach Parcells hit gold with Bill Belichick.

But he failed with Ray Handley and Al Groh. Tom Coughlin is still to be seen.

Weis has an audition at Notre Dame and Crennel is in Cleveland.

He could very well have a poor record just like Coach Johnson.

But seriously if you look at any of those coaches, most were not especially charismatic.

I liked Wannstedt, Butch Davis and Norv, but they were all missing that certain something.

[Cbz40]

There are so many facits that must fall into place when putting a championsip team together. Good Drafts, Intelligent talented players, team chemistry, good coaches & coaching, lack of key injuries, and whole lotta luck.

[junk]

Just because a group of assistants does well with a group of collected talent does not mean they are great head coaches.

Coach Parcells hit gold with Bill Belichick.

But he failed with Ray Handley and Al Groh. Tom Coughlin is still to be seen.

Weis has an audition at Notre Dame and Crennel is in Cleveland.

He could very well have a poor record just like Coach Johnson.

But seriously if you look at any of those coaches, most were not especially charismatic.

I liked Wannstedt, Butch Davis and Norv, but they were all missing that certain something.

I agree completely about assistants vs. head coaches. Hudson Houck is still a top notch OL coach. I personally think Campo, Davis or Wannestadt would be very solid defensive coordinators, just not head coaches. Same for Norv as an offensive coordinator (although I think he has been the best of the bunch as a head coach).

And Belicheck was a failure in Cleveland before rebounding with NE.

[TruBlueCowboy]

I agree completely about assistants vs. head coaches. Hudson Houck is still a top notch OL coach. I personally think Campo, Davis or Wannestadt would be very solid defensive coordinators, just not head coaches. Same for Norv as an offensive coordinator (although I think he has been the best of the bunch as a head coach).

And Belicheck was a failure in Cleveland before rebounding with NE.

I guess when you look at it that way, Parcells crew was looking pretty low until Belichick turned it around in New England and Coughlin had one of the most successful expansion starts in NFL history. I honestly don't think Wannstedt will ever make it as a coach but I think Turner might be able to do something. He was turning Washington around a little bit until Danny Snyder decided to control things.

I also wanted to add a small point in that is it just me, or does it seem like more assistant coaches are realizing what you guys just wrote? Or maybe they're more picky than they ever were before. It used to seem like a lot of Super Bowl teams lost half their coaches after the magical year, but nowadays you see a lot of fellas sticking around for years happy as an assistant. Maybe it's because the pay is so much higher than it used to be. My example would be guys like Denver's offensive coordinator (Kubiak), Philly's defensive coordinator (Johnson), Tampa Bay's defensive coordinator (Kiffen), and Indy's offensive coordinator. (Moore) All of these guys probably could have had head coaching jobs somewhere.

[blindzebra]

I think it comes back to the individual coach on the staff rather than the head coach they were under.

Who was the Giants coach when Lombardi, Landry and Shula were assistants now that guy was a genius.;)

[Nors]

My take on JJ's assistants, they all were kind of caught up in "their" success. Some arrogance is all of them - Few people can pull off what a JJ/Parcells/Bellicheck/Lombardi/Landry do.

Thats what makes them greats.

[trickblue]

My take on JJ's assistants, they all were kind of caught up in "their" success. Some arrogance is all of them - Few people can pull off what a JJ/Parcells/Bellicheck/Lombardi/Landry do.

Thats what makes them greats.

There is a lot of truth in what you say... the fact that a great position coach does not become a great head coach is by no means an indictment on their ability as a coach...

Great "head coaches" are not neccessarily great "coaches"... a great "head coach" is a great MANAGER of OTHER coaches...

We had a phenominal potpourri of great coaches here over the years... yes... Campo was a disaster as a head coach... but he is a darn fine coach nonetheless... as is Wanny... the same goes for the Landry era...

Some are meant to be great coaches... others are meant to be great HEAD coaches... they all are a part of the success/failure of their respective teams...

[dwmyers]

I think it comes back to the individual coach on the staff rather than the head coach they were under.

Who was the Giants coach when Lombardi, Landry and Shula were assistants now that guy was a genius.;)

Shula was never an assistant with the Giants. He played for the Browns, the Colts and one year with the Redskins. Weeb Ewbank took him as an assistant with the Colts after Shula retired as a player. When Weeb left the Colts, Shula replaced him as head coach.

I think the Giants coach you speak of is Jim Lee Howell.

David.

[dwmyers]

My take on JJ's assistants, they all were kind of caught up in "their" success. Some arrogance is all of them - Few people can pull off what a JJ/Parcells/Bellicheck/Lombardi/Landry do.

Thats what makes them greats.

What I think (for what its worth..)

JJ was a good (but risk taking) judge of talent, a good judge of men and a decent to good defensive coach, but he never was a pro caliber offensive coach. If Jimmy hadn't managed to dump Mike Shula and get Norv Turner, we might have been very frustrated through the 1990s.

Great coaching factories usually come from people who know the entire game of football at a level substantially above their peers. Walsh was an idea guy and so his assistants reflect that. Sid Gillman and Don Coryell, the same way. Tom Landry was an idea guy and he had some successful assistants come out of his teams (Dan Reeves, Mike Ditka, Dick Nolan). Parcells, he's also fully rounded in the game and has had successful former assistants.

I don't know though if it's a total knock on a coach. If so, the Joe Gibbs must really really suck, because his assistants make JJ's seem like geniuses.

David.

[blindzebra]

Shula was never an assistant with the Giants. He played for the Browns, the Colts and one year with the Redskins. Weeb Ewbank took him as an assistant with the Colts after Shula retired as a player. When Weeb left the Colts, Shula replaced him as head coach.

I think the Giants coach you speak of is Jim Lee Howell.

David.

For some reason I have this picture in my head of the three of them standing together on a practice field.

[SuspectCorner]

to this day jimmy johnson is quoted saying coaching is important.... but talent wins out.

it takes a certain amount of luck to amass the necessary talent to win championships.

and we've experienced a lot of luck.

[Redball Express]

Maybe it's because the pay is so much higher than it used to be. My example would be guys like Denver's offensive coordinator (Kubiak), Philly's defensive coordinator (Johnson), Tampa Bay's defensive coordinator (Kiffen), and Indy's offensive coordinator. (Moore) All of these guys probably could have had head coaching jobs somewhere.

My spin on this is that the reason these guys stay around is that owners and head coaches who hire them enter into long-term deals because they try to tie up the first couple of levels of talent coaching-wise so that these guys that are head coordinators will be available and already familiar with their systems incase there is a change at the headcoaching level.

If so, the team has insurance for a smoother transition and less upheaval if a headcoach doesn't succeed.

I think the same thing is going on here in Dallas with Payton. He's clearly being setup as our next headcoach. All dependent on how things go before BP does call it quits, of course.

So it makes sense. I throw in with the guys in this thread that stated our assistant coaches under Jimma made a better team of coaches than they would headcoaches.

I watched those guys down here in Miami put together an awesome team in UM and together, they were a crack unit of coaches that had a great system of matching talent and system into a successful team. It carried over into the Dallas situation very well.

But it doesn't surprise me that the various assistant sdidn't go on to be very good HC's.

Without the support of their other coaches, it's a very difficult task to rebuild the coaching staff elsewhere and it takes time. The Dallas coaches that came from UM had already been together 3-4 years before coming to Dallas. So there was a lot of continuity already there.

I remember very well the furior created when Jimma left UM and took all his assistants with him. The head athletic director was furious because it happened so suddenly and Johnson had just told UM that he wouldn't leave the school shortly before he jumped and ran with everybody off to Dallas.

He was blasted for that at UM for months. He really did a number on their program in doing it that way as so many of the players were recruited by him and Davis and Wannstead, etc. Then they were gone and players started trying to transfer out as quick as they could. It was a mess for awhile.

The point being, Jimma's staff was tops and IMO never got enough credit for the success of the team. Jimma took too much of it. Even after the 1-15 start, they made their adjustments to the pro level and the rest was history. Once they dumped David Shula as Offensive Coordinator, that is.

So I'm not sure about it all, but it's obvious from the way this thread has bounced this subject around, that it's tricky with the retaining and changing of asisitants into HC's. You can't always capture that magic in a bottle and take it to Chicago, etc.

There is also one factor that is going unsaid about success in Dallas with Jimma and company vs. assistants in other cities as HC's.

Our owner, Jerry Jones.

Despite all his faults, he's still one of the top owners in football. He's willing to spend, he's totally involved in the operation, he's groomed Stephen Jones to takeover at the proper time and he's made huge contributions league-wide in the areas of league revenue and marketing, etc.

These other assitants who left Dallas must have had a rude shock when they landed in other cities and found their new owner to not be 1/10 the owner Jones is. Jones provides alot of support for his coaches with the way he is. That's not the case in many other cities.

Like him or love him, JJ was the one who brought all those guys to Dallas with Jimma and gave them their chances in the NFL and then later when they wanted to leave..happily. Like a great owner should.

So when looking at assistants and their success, look no further than the ownership where they landed. It will tell you often about how successful they will be.

parcellswaterboy

[jterrell]

I think it boils down to the fact none of those guys were not NFL'ers except Turner who isnt a Jimmy guy. He's a Zampese guy.

Jimmy didnt win based on scheme he won based on talent. He had an eye for Defensive guys unlike anyone else and was fortunate to have the offensive guys in place. That was the difference between here and Miami. Its not like Jimmy got dumber as a head coach.

Jimmy didnt target Emmitt or Troy. He got lucky that both ended up here; Troy over his protestations.

If you take that scheme of his which came from UofMiami and plug in a bunch of UofMiami guys it has a chance to work but as Butch Davis showed it is hardly a mastermind plan.

[ravidubey]

A head coach is a natural leader with at least some modern NFL football acumen. Jimmy is a charismatic leader who had a good feel for the flow of the game, the outlook of his players, and is a good judge of talent. Norv is a great play caller and offensive schemer but not a leader of men. Dave Waanstedt's biggest asset is that Jimmy Johnson is his best friend. Same with Butch Davis. You get the feeling Jimmy cares little if at all for Campo who was always more of Davis' apprentice than Jimmy's. Houck is a fantastic OL coach who Jimmy was lucky to work with and is also not someone I would say was from the "Jimmy Tree".

Mike Shanahan is one of the few coaches truly innovating the game today. The blocking scheme and wide-pitch running plays he refined before the Green Bay Superbowl was nothing short of brilliant and it has formed the basis for an entirely new kind of offense. Mike Martz took the Gibbs/Zampese offense to new levels a few years back, but it's hard to say he added anything fundamental to the offense itself. Something interesting is cooking up in New England but it's hard to say what exactly, but I'll give Belichek the benefit of the doubt and say he's innovating as well.

[dbair1967]

I was reading a link in the Zone to a rumor that said some Dolphins players were actually happy that Ricky Williams quit, because it forced Dave Wannstedt out of Miami.... and you know what, judging by what I've seen in Chicago and Miami, I don't have a hard time believing it.

Jerry Jones once said that anyone of 500 coaches could lead that 90's Cowboys team to a Super Bowl and after watching Switzer do it, and then the failure of so many of Jimmy's assistants, I'm really start to believe Jerry. Jimmy Johnson was a great coach, no one had balls of steel like he did. He wouldn't take crap from players, he would predict wins, he called trick plays at the craziest times, and he faced down the media during a 1-15 season. I'm wondering, though, if maybe we should be giving him credit for his GM skills more than his coaching skills. He hand-picked one of the most talented teams ever created, and he did a fine job in Miami creating a defense that kept Wannstedt employed for several seasons.

So what's up with all of Jimmy's assistants? Was it one of those cases where any coach would have looked good with that type of talent and cohesion?

Going over some of the coaches I remember:

Dave Wannstedt - Absolute failure in Chicago. Limited success in Miami, but mostly with Jimmy's guys.

Norv Turner - Absolutely failure in Washington except for one magical season. Stunk it up with the Raiders last year. With Randy Moss, Lamont Jordan and others, he finally has the most talented offense since the Triplets days, so this could be his final NFL test.

Butch Davis - Success in college I guess but failed miserably with the Browns. I don't know who we should be blaming for all those first round busts. Maybe the personnel management could be as much to blame for some of these guys problems as poor coaching?

Dave Campo - Need I say more?

Ernie Zampese - Okay, I know he's technically not a Jimmy man, but he was Norv Tuner's biggest influence. He joined the Pats after the Cowboys and Rams days, but was kicked out before the Belichick revolution began.

Hudson Houck - I guess he had some success with San Diego over the last few years.

I'm a little surprised that none of these guys ever went on to continued success with bigger and better things. I have a high opinion of Jimmy Johnson and thought he would have some type of coaching tree.

cant say I agree with you...so what if they didnt become bigtime head coaches? some of its where you end up...what if Norv Turner hadnt left for Washington early in 1994 and instead become head coach here? (instead of Switzer)...Turner, Zampese and Houck are all extremely high regarded as offensive coaches...Houck is one of the greatest OL coaches in league history...Turner was the best offensive coordinator in the league from 91 to 93 while he was with us...Wannstedt is a very highly regarded defensive coach...

David

[pancakeman]

I also wanted to add a small point in that is it just me, or does it seem like more assistant coaches are realizing what you guys just wrote? Or maybe they're more picky than they ever were before. It used to seem like a lot of Super Bowl teams lost half their coaches after the magical year, but nowadays you see a lot of fellas sticking around for years happy as an assistant. Maybe it's because the pay is so much higher than it used to be.

I think job security might come into play too. Head coaches are given such short windows to succeed nowadays. I can imagine that it used to be that being a head coach is the unqualified top of the coaching career, but with turnover now I can see why coordinators might be less reluctant to step up.

[BrAinPaiNt]

I think it boils down to the fact none of those guys were not NFL'ers except Turner who isnt a Jimmy guy. He's a Zampese guy.

Jimmy didnt win based on scheme he won based on talent. He had an eye for Defensive guys unlike anyone else and was fortunate to have the offensive guys in place. That was the difference between here and Miami. Its not like Jimmy got dumber as a head coach.

Jimmy didnt target Emmitt or Troy. He got lucky that both ended up here; Troy over his protestations.

If you take that scheme of his which came from UofMiami and plug in a bunch of UofMiami guys it has a chance to work but as Butch Davis showed it is hardly a mastermind plan.


Good points on troy and emmitt and to round out the triplets Irvin was already a Cowboy when Jimmy came on board.