Did you see Key on Best Damn?

[BigDDynasty]

If so tell what he said, please!(I have Firefox and it won't play!!!)

[StevenOtero]

If so tell what he said, please!(I have Firefox and it won't play!!!)

Play it in IE bro. I have FF too but I had to break down and play it in IE.

He did say this " I'm ready to Rock N' Roll " That pumped me up. & He said hes better than T.O :)

[TheKey]

No he didn't, he said he goes over the middle and has won the big game, not just got there. He never said "I am better."

[StevenOtero]

No he didn't, he said he goes over the middle and has won the big game, not just got there. He never said "I am better."

True , but he said it . Not literally though.

[CowboyFFL7]

True , but he said it . Not literally though.

I have a question, are you a member of the media?

you seem to have all the credentials

take an athelete's words and twist them around for headlines, subsequently, tarnishing a human being's reputation in a single paragraph

[Cowboy Junkie]

Bledsoe In top 5 QB's in NFC.
Skated around question about , Who was better he or TO. He did say better at what , depends on what you are looking for in the position . said in joking manner that He has a ring , just didn't get there.
Said he had a great year as an individual until he broke his leg , but is healthy and ready to rock 'N Roll.

said as a little kid was around USC football and he knew Rodney Pete from hangin around USC football field.
Pete : Concured

They asked him why Bill gets more out of him than other coach's . He seemed to take a little offense to that and he said that was simply not true and then he stated how he won SB with Gruden and how he went to Pro bowl with other coach's. Said that Bill just knows his talents better than anyone and he (Key)knows what Bill wants out of him and he gives it to him.
Then he promoted a new book . Nothin juicy , it is a workout book. I think he said it was for busy fathers with son's. said somthing about how father's that work alot have a hard time working out,book suppose to be helpful for that.


That was about it. I am not very good at putting the info on paper , but info is there.
I will say this Key has an engaging personality.Looks like he would be a good teammate just for the energy he shows. He did not seem to say alot ,but it was enjoyable.

[Phoenix-Talon]

I have a question, are you a member of the media?
you seem to have all the credentials take an athelete's words and twist them around for headlines, subsequently, tarnishing a human being's reputation in a single paragraph

You know ...I'm starting to understand that some Cowboy fans are really "Alright!"

[Phoenix-Talon]

[QUOTE=leonargized]...Skated around question about, Who was better he or TO. He did say better at what , depends on what you are looking for in the position .

There's no question in my mind about who's the best ...

Michael Irvin is in a different class than any of the receivers out there today! That's not slighting T.O., or any of the outstanding NFL receiver corp; it's merely giving full credit to my main man Irvin. Now, Lynn Swann and maybe Rice in his hayday are on the same level, but T.O. is still relatively young comparatively speaking. Has nothing directly to do with the Cowboy franchise; I've always believed Irvin was one of the best -- at ever aspect of the wide receiver corp!

[big dog cowboy]

[QUOTE] Now, Lynn Swann and maybe Rice in his hayday are on the same level
Swann = over rated. He doesn't belong on that elite level many put him on.

[Phoenix-Talon]

[QUOTE=Phoenix-Talon]Swann = over rated. He doesn't belong on that elite level many put him on.

Respect your opinion BDC. Perhaps because I'm ultimately an NFL fan that I have no reservations about Swann and others that aren't on my favorite team.

But you can say what you want, I've seen Swann make some unbelieveable catches too many times to know that he can be mentioned among the greats -- not necessarily the greatest.

[32BellyOption]

I too think Swann was overrated! If you want to talk Steeler WR's then it has to be Stallworth. My Steeler buddies would concur that Stallworth, not Swann, was the gretaest Steeler WR ever!

[Phoenix-Talon]

I too think Swann was overrated! If you want to talk Steeler WR's then it has to be Stallworth. My Steeler buddies would concur that Stallworth, not Swann, was the gretaest Steeler WR ever!


Overrated?

The first day of the 1974 draft ended at 9:02 p.m., and that’s when Noll met with the media and offered these snapshot assessments of the five players the Steelers had just picked:
On Swann: "An exceptional all-around athlete."
On Lambert: "A hitter."
On Stallworth: "A great jumper, good athlete, very fluid in his moves."

Take a closer look ...

John Stallworth
In 1974, John Stallworth was drafted by the NFL's Pittsburgh Steelers. He played his entire career with the Steelers, winning four Super Bowl rings in Super Bowls IX, X, XII, and XIV. While a Steeler, John set numerous records, and twice received the Most Valuable Player award. John Stallworth was inducted into the NFL Hall of Fame in August, 2002.

Lynn Swann
Named All-Pro in 1975, 1977, and 1978, Swann was also voted to the Pro Bowl after each of those seasons. One of the most exciting players of his time, Swann was named to the NFL’s All-Decade Team of the 1970s, and to the Super Bowl Silver Anniversary Team. Lynn Swann was Inducted into the NFL Hall of Fame in August 2001.

Not a question of whether Swann was better than Stallworth -- but IMO Swann was never overrated --nor was he viewed as an overrated player by the HOF committee.

[StateCollegeCowboy]

[QUOTE=big dog cowboy]

Respect your opinion BDC. Perhaps because I'm ultimately an NFL fan that I have no reservations about Swann and others that aren't on my favorite team.

But you can say what you want, I've seen Swann make some unbelieveable catches too many times to know that he can be mentioned among the greats -- not necessarily the greatest.

For me, my favorite receivers to watch were M. Irvin, J. Rice, and C. Carter. Although I despise T.O., I do respect him as a receiver and he is headed to that list of recievers that are fun to watch and bring it every game.

As for the older reveivers like Swann and Pearson, I can't give an opinion as I was too young to have seen them play.

[Phoenix-Talon]

As for the older reveivers like Swann and Pearson, I can't give an opinion as I was too young to have seen them play.

Understand you're young, but in this day and age of technology, there's no excuse for not taking a look back at some of the highlights and clips of NFL games and HOF players. Both cable and satellite have NFL games ...regular season, playoffs and superbowl games you can watch and make those type of assessments. In addition, the web has archived stats, and information that is also available for your perusal. So, not having seen them play is no excuse anymore.

[jman]

[QUOTE=big dog cowboy]

Respect your opinion BDC. Perhaps because I'm ultimately an NFL fan that I have no reservations about Swann and others that aren't on my favorite team.

But you can say what you want, I've seen Swann make some unbelieveable catches too many times to know that he can be mentioned among the greats -- not necessarily the greatest.

Talon, I may not be on board with you as far as Swann and Rice in the same sentence. But you do have one thing right; Swann was money in the play-offs. I still have night-mares about Swann in the Super Bowls against the Cowboys...LOL

[Phoenix-Talon]

[QUOTE=Phoenix-Talon]...Swann was money in the play-offs. I still have night-mares about Swann in the Super Bowls against the Cowboys...LOL

That's the same nightmares that Irvin produces in the dreams of many opponent team fans. Underrated wide receivers don't produce that type of agony. Yeah, while you may Not want to agree with me in totality, I can tell that you know where I'm coming from!;)

[Wimbo]

Swann's stats... nice, but they don't look like elite numbers:

YEAR GAMES REC YARDS AVG TD
1974 - 12 - 11 - 208 - 18.9 - 2
1975 - 14 - 49 - 781 - 15.9 - 11
1976 - 12 - 28 - 516 - 18.4 - 3
1977 - 14 - 50 - 789 - 15.8 - 7
1978 - 16 - 61 - 880 - 14.4 - 11
1979 - 13 - 41 - 808 - 19.7 - 5
1980 - 13 - 44 - 710 - 16.1 - 7
1981 - 13 - 34 - 505 - 14.9 - 5
1982 - 09 - 18 - 265 - 14.7 - 0
TOT- 115 - 336 - 5,462 - 16.3 - 51

[Phoenix-Talon]

Swann's stats... nice, but they don't look like elite numbers:...

You say "nice" ...but nor are these underrated stats! But wait, come on Wimbo...you Know stats aren't the ultimate factor in determining a great wide receiver; not to mention a HOFer!

My only stance is that Swann was not an underrated WR! That's all I'm saying.

[DezBRomo9]

You say "nice" ...but nor are these underrated stats! But wait, come on Wimbo...you Know stats aren't the ultimate factor in determining a great wide receiver; not to mention a HOFer!

My only stance is that Swann was not an underrated WR! That's all I'm saying.

Those are not elite numbers either. A HOFer is supposed to have dominated the competition during his career.
He averaged 3 catches a game for 47.4 yards and for .44 TD's per game.
Sure, he was money during the playoffs but does he deserve to be mentioned with Rice, Irvin and R. Moss, Hell No! Those 3 just dominated DB in some way every game they played in. Swann is a player who was clutch, not dominate.

[ravidubey]

Lynn Swann was one of the most exciting WR's of his era. His role was not to move the chains and get first downs; he was the one player on the Steeler offense who could demoralize the opponent with a single play. He'd make a crazy catch over your best cover guy at the worst possible time regardless of the tightest coverage for a big momentum-changing play. That's why he's in the Hall, not for his yards and touchdowns but for what he meant to his team and to the opponents who faced him. This is FOOTBALL, not baseball-- it's not about the stats!

His selection to the all-decade team was unquestioned, and so his selection to the HOF should also not be questioned.

What IS questionable is why Drew Pearson is not in the HOF (and even worse, not in the Cowboys ROH) despite himself being on that same all-decade list and making some of the biggest catches in NFL history (Hail Mary, anyone?).

[DezBRomo9]

Lynn Swann was one of the most exciting WR's of his era. His role was not to move the chains and get first downs; he was the one player on the Steeler offense who could demoralize the opponent with a single play. He'd make a crazy catch over your best cover guy at the worst possible time regardless of the tightest coverage for a big momentum-changing play. That's why he's in the Hall, not for his yards and touchdowns but for what he meant to his team and to the opponents who faced him. This is FOOTBALL, not baseball-- it's not about the stats!

His selection to the all-decade team was unquestioned, and so his selection to the HOF should also not be questioned.

What IS questionable is why Drew Pearson is not in the HOF (and even worse, not in the Cowboys ROH) despite himself being on that same all-decade list and making some of the biggest catches in NFL history (Hail Mary, anyone?).

So Adam Vintiari (sp?) willl make the hall because he hits the most clutch FG's ever? Probably not. Dante Hall will make it because of his Kick Returns for TD's? Nope. I always believed that the HOF was for those players who carried their teams i.e. Bradshaw, Aikman, Emmitt and so on. Swann would have that one play, then disappear for the rest of the game while the D snuffs out the other teams offense.

[bsheeern]

Understand you're young, but in this day and age of technology, there's no excuse for not taking a look back at some of the highlights and clips of NFL games and HOF players. Both cable and satellite have NFL games ...regular season, playoffs and superbowl games you can watch and make those type of assessments. In addition, the web has archived stats, and information that is also available for your perusal. So, not having seen them play is no excuse anymore.

I'm not jumping into the argument about Swann being this or that, but I will say that it is hard to judge a player by just watching clips or highlights. You really need to be able to see the whole game. I can't count how many times I've seen a clip or highligts of a game and it gave no justice of how the game/play actually went down.
Sportscenter is famous for this as so is NFL films

[TheHustler]

I'm not jumping into the argument about Swann being this or that, but I will say that it is hard to judge a player by just watching clips or highlights. You really need to be able to see the whole game. I can't count how many times I've seen a clip or highligts of a game and it gave no justice of how the game/play actually went down.
Sportscenter is famous for this as so is NFL films

Your sig is the best looking #27 we've had in a long time.

[TheHustler]

Not a question of whether Swann was better than Stallworth -- but IMO Swann was never overrated --nor was he viewed as an overrated player by the HOF committee.

HOF voting is one of the most biased and overrated sporting events in all of major league sports.

[Big Country]

You know ...I'm starting to understand that some Cowboy fans are really "Alright!"

Do you mean alright, or Alright! I liked the second better. I think that's what you meant... But, we also could have told you that if you had just asked.
:D

[bsheeern]

Your sig is the best looking #27 we've had in a long time.
I might even take her over Everson Walls....LOL

[Phoenix-Talon]

Hell No! Those 3 just dominated DB in some way every game they played in. Swann is a player who was clutch, not dominate.

What the hell is difference is it whether a player reaches the HOF by clutch or by dominanance? In fact clutch players probably are more effective winning games over dominant players.

Let's stop this for just a minute ...why are we bickering over the relevance of a HOFer? You keep your opinion -- either way, Lynn Swann is already in the HOF; and deserves to be there according to NFL HOF experts!

[StevenOtero]

I have a question, are you a member of the media?

you seem to have all the credentials

take an athelete's words and twist them around for headlines, subsequently, tarnishing a human being's reputation in a single paragraph

LOL!
I'd never twist his words. If it came down to it....we all know what he said. IT IS JUST MY OPINION THAT HE SAID HE IS BETTER THAN T.O . Son of a Gun.... lot of technical weirdos out there. I'll draw you a picture next time :)

[Muhast]

3 best wr's of all time

Jerry Rice
Michael Irvin
Cris Carter

In that order

[LaTunaNostra]

Bledsoe In top 5 QB's in NFC.
Skated around question about , Who was better he or TO. He did say better at what , depends on what you are looking for in the position . said in joking manner that He has a ring , just didn't get there.
Said he had a great year as an individual until he broke his leg , but is healthy and ready to rock 'N Roll.

said as a little kid was around USC football and he knew Rodney Pete from hangin around USC football field.
Pete : Concured

They asked him why Bill gets more out of him than other coach's . He seemed to take a little offense to that and he said that was simply not true and then he stated how he won SB with Gruden and how he went to Pro bowl with other coach's. Said that Bill just knows his talents better than anyone and he (Key)knows what Bill wants out of him and he gives it to him.
Then he promoted a new book . Nothin juicy , it is a workout book. I think he said it was for busy fathers with son's. said somthing about how father's that work alot have a hard time working out,book suppose to be helpful for that.


That was about it. I am not very good at putting the info on paper , but info is there.
I will say this Key has an engaging personality.Looks like he would be a good teammate just for the energy he shows. He did not seem to say alot ,but it was enjoyable.

You di a nice job...Key was a bit miffed about that question "what is it Parcells can get so much out of you when other coaches can't?" and i don't blame him...as he said, he has done well, performance wise, under every coach since he was in school.

The question SHOULD BE "why do you behave so much better under Bill?" :rolleyes:

That topic got raised tho, and Key said whenever Bill starts to act "immature", he just walks away..he won't get into anything with him (when he doesn't want to).

It's amusing how Key busts Tuna's chops all the time in interviews. He teases him, really, and gets that Eddie Haskell look on his face when he is doing it. I have always interpreted it as a " yep, we're THAT close, and don't you wish YOU were" type thing .

Agreed, Key is very engaging. One of the most charismatic personalities in sports today, imo. He really lights up a set...even on TV you can see the energy/excitement level shoot up when he walks on.

[ABQCOWBOY]

You di a nice job...Key was a bit miffed about that question "what is it Parcells can get so much out of you when other coaches can't?" and i don't blame him...as he said, he has done well, performance wise, under every coach since he was in school.

The question SHOULD BE "why do you behave so much better under Bill?" :rolleyes:

That topic got raised tho, and Key said whenever Bill starts to act "immature", he just walks away..he won't get into anything with him (when he doesn't want to).

It's amusing how Key busts Tuna's chops all the time in interviews. He teases him, really, and gets that Eddie Haskell look on his face when he is doing it. I have always interpreted it as a " yep, we're THAT close, and don't you wish YOU were" type thing .

Agreed, Key is very engaging. One of the most charismatic personalities in sports today, imo. He really lights up a set...even on TV you can see the energy/excitement level shoot up when he walks on.

Hey LTN,

Interesting SigPic. I hope he lives up to it.

[LaTunaNostra]

Hey LTN,

Interesting SigPic. I hope he lives up to it.

He's there only because I like his biceps. :rolleyes:

The sigpic is probably bad timing on my part as some could interpret it (wrongly) as I think JR could replace (ssshhhh...you-know-who).

Seriously, ABQ, the more I read up on Ratliff, the more I think we may have a late round gem.

This could turn into some amazing rotation....

[ABQCOWBOY]

He's there only because I like his biceps. :rolleyes:

The sigpic is probably bad timing on my part as some could interpret it (wrongly) as I think JR could replace (ssshhhh...you-know-who).

Seriously, ABQ, the more I read up on Ratliff, the more I think we may have a late round gem.

This could turn into some amazing rotation....

I agree, I like Ratliff as well. I watched that Auburn team on several occasions. I liked there entire defensive line. I think your right. He might just be a player for us.

[LaTunaNostra]

I agree, I like Ratliff as well. I watched that Auburn team on several occasions. I liked there entire defensive line. I think your right. He might just be a player for us.
Alongside Fergy....could be an impressive front.

ABQ, Bill's 3-4 ends with the Jets..think ANYONE can name them?

Anyone even hear of Rick Lyle, for instance?

They were no-namers, lunch pailers......late rounders or undrafted.....and they got the job done.

[Chocolate Lab]

Hey LTN,

Interesting SigPic. I hope he lives up to it.
I agree, Herms... That was the pic I was thinking of in a Canty thread when I was saying that Ratliff looked pretty big and strong, and like he had the frame to carry even quite a bit more bulk. A year with Juraszic and he should be able to more than hold his own on the inside.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Alongside Fergy....could be an impressive front.

ABQ, Bill's 3-4 ends with the Jets..think ANYONE can name them?

Anyone even hear of Rick Lyle, for instance?

They were no-namers, lunch pailers......late rounders or undrafted.....and they got the job done.

How bout these guys.

Jerome Sally
Bill Niel
Geroge Martin
Jim Burt
Casey Merrill
Leonard Marshall


All of those guys were hard hats.

[LaTunaNostra]

I agree, Herms... That was the pic I was thinking of in a Canty thread when I was saying that Ratliff looked pretty big and strong, and like he had the frame to carry even quite a bit more bulk. A year with Juraszic and he should be able to more than hold his own on the inside.
This 3-4 thing is going to take some getting used to....it always does because even if the pass rush has sucked for years, we still expect the front line to be getting sacks. I think especially in Dallas, since Tom Landry was a seminal figure in the development of the 4-3, it's gonna take some serious 'psychological' adjustment.

But kids like Ratliff are so wonderful to see developed...Bill had a bunch of players like Bobby Hamilton, Anthony Pleasant, Ernie Logan..un- or low drafted, big, widebodied and tough as all hell...no one outside the team even knows these 3-4 linemen's names, but to me they are as exciting to watch as the Freeneys and Abrahams. They are in there two-gapping and making the oline pay, not just hold them off.

One of Bill's talents is finding and developing these unsung hero types. Ironically, guys Bill drafted high for his 3-4 like Boose and Wiltz were duds, but the Fergys and other no-names were gold.

No celebrity dlinemen, like no celebrity QBs..this weekend's reaction was, imo, at least partly due to the realization there not only won't be any Charles Haleys, there might not even be any Ellis and Glover level names on the dline after this year.

From the little I know of Ratliff, he has all the earmarkings of one of those mean tough SOB lunch-pailers. And if you're a trench warfare lover, what you lose in 'excitement' with a 3-4 line you get back in true grit.

I can't wait to see what Bill puts together, CL, (for this PART time 3-4, Nors)....this one will be worth the price of admission.

I'm psyched about seeing Fergy back at 3-4 nose as well.

[ABQCOWBOY]

This 3-4 thing is going to take some getting used to....it always does because even if the pass rush has sucked for years, we still expect the front line to be getting sacks. I think especially in Dallas, since Tom Landry was a seminal figure in the development of the 4-3, it's gonna take some serious 'psychological' adjustment.

But kids like Ratliff are so wonderful to see developed...Bill had a bunch of players like Bobby Hamilton, Anthony Pleasant, Ernie Logan..un- or low drafted, big, widebodied and tough as all hell...no one outside the team even knows these 3-4 linemen's names, but to me they are as exciting to watch as the Freeneys and Abrahams. They are in there two-gapping and making the oline pay, not just hold them off.

One of Bill's talents is finding and developing these unsung hero types. Ironically, guys Bill drafted high for his 3-4 like Boose and Wiltz were duds, but the Fergys and other no-names were gold.

No celebrity dlinemen, like no celebrity QBs..this weekend's reaction was, imo, at least partly due to the realization there not only won't be any Charles Haleys, there might not even be any Ellis and Glover level names on the dline after this year.

From the little I know of Ratliff, he has all the earmarkings of one of those mean tough SOB lunch-pailers. And if you're a trench warfare lover, what you lose in 'excitement' with a 3-4 line you get back in true grit.

I can't wait to see what Bill puts together, CL, (for this PART time 3-4, Nors)....this one will be worth the price of admission.

I'm psyched about seeing Fergy back at 3-4 nose as well.

You bring up an interesting point, and I must admit, you stike a nerve. I think everybody knows that I like the 43 and it is difficult for me to watch us go from our traditional 4-3 defense to a 3-4. Having said that, winning curres a multitude of sins so I expect we will be fine in a season or two.

It is difficult to accept the fact that there will be no more icons on our DL, especially for the older fans. In Jimmy's days, I don't really think there were Defensive line stars, like there were in the early days. I mean, Haley but the Marylands and the Jeffcoats of the world were nothing like the Bob Lillys, the Jethro Pughs, the Larry Coles, the George Andries, the Harvie Martins, the Too Talls, Randy White, John Dutton, I mean, these were truely great players for us and stars that we identified with.

It's a new day. No sense crying over it. Things change, winning is everything.

[Phoenix-Talon]

... but I will say that it is hard to judge a player by just watching clips or highlights. You really need to be able to see the whole game.

It's very difficult to focus when you display a beautiful picture like that on your post ...however, I do agree with you. That's why I said ..."Both cable and satellite have NFL games ...regular season, playoffs and superbowl games you can watch and make those type of assessments."

[LaTunaNostra]

You bring up an interesting point, and I must admit, you stike a nerve. I think everybody knows that I like the 43 and it is difficult for me to watch us go from our traditional 4-3 defense to a 3-4. Having said that, winning curres a multitude of sins so I expect we will be fine in a season or two.

It is difficult to accept the fact that there will be no more icons on our DL, especially for the older fans. In Jimmy's days, I don't really think there were Defensive line stars, like there were in the early days. I mean, Haley but the Marylands and the Jeffcoats of the world were nothing like the Bob Lillys, the Jethro Pughs, the Larry Coles, the George Andries, the Harvie Martins, the Too Talls, Randy White, John Dutton, I mean, these were truely great players for us and stars that we identified with.

It's a new day. No sense crying over it. Things change, winning is everything.

I know I am striking a nerve, ABQ. I try to be sensitive to the 'atmosphere', and this weekend and yesterday it was clear to me the defense of Greg Ellis was not all about Greg Ellis...and I know the franchise's pioneering history with the 4-3. The Doomsday Defense wasn't three wide columns backed by four kamikazis.

In addition, the most glamorous position on any D is usually edge rusher (or MLB). The top cover corners might be making a few more bucks these days but their relative isolation downfield take them out of the critical area more often. When I think of the protoypical defensive player, it's the image of a defensive lineman comes to my mind, not a linebacker, or a defensive back, not even Darren Woodson quality. The very term "Front Four" says it all.

What I am hoping is some star-quality emerges FAST in the linebacking corps. Ware is going to take some time, but a few impact plays early on, a few glimpses of raw talent, a few highlight reel hits....it'll make it much easier a transition.

And of course, it's anyone's guess how much 3-4 we see this year, but I still hold with about 40 percent tops. It won't be that abrupt an adjustment.

[DezBRomo9]

What the hell is difference is it whether a player reaches the HOF by clutch or by dominanance? In fact clutch players probably are more effective winning games over dominant players.

Let's stop this for just a minute ...why are we bickering over the relevance of a HOFer? You keep your opinion -- either way, Lynn Swann is already in the HOF; and deserves to be there according to NFL HOF experts!

Clutch players that are in the HOF are usually surrounded by dominate players. How many other guys are in the HOF from the offense? And how about that D? Bradshaw led that team and although I hate the Steelers I have to admit Terry was worthy of his HOF election. Stallworth was their no. 1 WR and Swann was given more credit than he deserved. IMO, he is vastly overrated. Most of his highlights for his career were in the playoffs or the SB. If Swann was on another team his career would be remembered in a different way.

[Chocolate Lab]

Interesting question on the 34/43 question possibly having anything with the Cowboys being a 43 team for the entire existence of the franchise, Herms... That might be worthy of its own thread.

I'm the opposite of ABQ. I think it will be fun to see the 34 after seeing nothing but the 43. It will be a nice and interesting change IMO. The fact that the defensive linemen won't ring up big stats means nothing to me... But you're right that it might to some other longtime fans.

[kmp77]

http://photos.imageevent.com/hermsherald/2005holding/jay.jpg

Is he doing his Coakley impression??

[Phoenix-Talon]

Whao...slow down. Let's try to break down what you're saying.

Clutch players that are in the HOF are usually surrounded by dominate players.

I have no reason to disagree with any of that. But that doesn't take away from the importance of clutch players. In fact, I could say to you ..."dominant players are complimented by clutch players!" And ...?

[QUOTE]How many other guys are in the HOF from the offense?

Uncertain if I understand what you mean, but I can say that HOF catergory breakdowns determine criteria for offensive/defensive positions.

[QUOTE]IMO, he is vastly overrated

Ok. Can't debate your opinion! Just disagree with you. Well think about it ...
an "overrated HOFer" ...what an oxymoron!!!!!