T. New--"Not Established Yet"?

[MichaelWinicki]

In the "Vikings/Cowboys" thread, there exists a side discussion comparing A. Winfield of the Vikes against T. Newman.

While I think T. New even at this point is the superior player, I can see the merit in saying Winfield is better.

However I don't follow the logic when some say Terrance Newman isn't established, like they have in that thread. If I had to pick an MVP of the defense last year it would be T. New. Not that this really means an awful lot because all in all it is just an opinion.

That being said I do have stats to show how devastatingly effective T. New courtesy of our favorite "Statistician"...

Here's what I posted at the end of the regular season at TheCowboys.Net --


In 16 games, he (Terrance Newman) allowed 39 completions for 580 yards and one touchdown (a 7-yarder). That's an average of 2.4 catches and 36.3 yards per game. He allowed more than three catches only twice and allowed more than 32 yards only five times. Of the 39 completions he allowed, only 24 went for a first down and only 12 converted on third down. Sixteen of them went for 8 yards or less.

He also finished with four interceptions, a fumble recovery (which should have been for a touchdown) and 20 passes defended (according to NFL.com). He was called for pass interference only twice, for a total of 29 yards. That means he had more interceptions (four) than pass interference penalties and touchdowns allowed combined (three). And he had six tackles for loss -- a huge number for a cornerback.


Re-read those two paragraphs if you still don't think Newman is established.

1 touchdown given up all year... a crummy 7-yarder.
2 pass interference calls.
His 20 passes defended were among the league leaders.

If that isn't established I don't know what is.

And consider this... Look at the number of sacks per pass-attempt the Cowboys had in 2003 as compared to 2002. The Cowboys slashed almost 7 pass-attempts per sack from their 2002 numbers. Now ask yourself, who on the Cowboy defense could have had the biggest affect on those numbers? Heck we only changed a small handful of players from the 2002 defense to the 2003 defense... Willie Blade? Al Singleton? The two new backup DE's? I don't think so... And while this is strictly an opinion it was indeed Terrance Newman that caused the pass rush to improve as much as it did from 2002 to 2003.

T. Newman is already one of the best corners in the NFC. In 2004 he'll be one of the best in the NFL.

Bank it.

[LaTunaNostra]

What does the word "establish" mean? It usually means a player has cemented his starter position.

No one is bringing in competition to "upgrade" his spot. Far from it. So, unlike Q, T-New is "established".

First rounder all are pleased with, and a defensive rookie all star. With vast potential.

If "established" means does he have an established rep as a shut down corner, league wide, well it probably will take him at least the two years it took Roy to "establish" his credentials.

Newman will be a "name" corner, like Bailey or Law or A. Glenn or C Woodson.. I expect that to be "established" rather soon. Headed for franchise status.

[MichaelWinicki]

What does the word "establish" mean? It usually means a player has cemented his starter position.

No one is bringing in competition to "upgrade" his spot. Far from it. So, unlike Q, T-New is "established".

First rounder all are pleased with, and a defensive rookie all star. With vast potential.

If "established" means does he have an established rep as a shut down corner, league wide, well it probably will take him at least the two years it took Roy to "establish" his credentials.

Newman will be a "name" corner, like Bailey or Law or A. Glenn or C Woodson.. I expect that to be "established" rather soon. Headed for franchise status.


Solid points of view all around Barb...

[jobberone]

Main Entry: establish
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English establissen, from Middle French establiss-, stem of establir, from Latin stabilire, from stabilis stable
1 : to institute (as a law) permanently by enactment or agreement
2 obsolete : SETTLE 7
3 a : to make firm or stable b : to introduce and cause to grow and multiply <establish grass on pasturelands>
4 a : to bring into existence : FOUND <established a republic> b : BRING ABOUT, EFFECT <established friendly relations>
5 a : to put on a firm basis : SET UP <establish his son in business> b : to put into a favorable position c : to gain full recognition or acceptance of <the role established her as a star>
6 : to make (a church) a national or state institution
7 : to put beyond doubt : PROVE <established my innocence>

with apologies to Mr. Webster.

you can't really tell if you're discussing the same topic/subject/whatever. I would say established here means he's setup beyond a reasonable doubt as a NFL corner and definintely as a starter on this team. I wouldn't say one season makes him an established star in the NFL but I'd place even money on the fact he will be after this year certainly next. He had a solid season. Very solid and really spectacular for a rookie with only takeaways and more defenses keeping him out of very elite company.

Really all you have to do is know the game and watch the kid play. He's good. I have no trouble with the word established and Newman in the same sentence.

[AdamJT13]

Michael was referring to CowboynIRAQ's claim that "... Newman has yet to establish himseelf, he really did nothing last season, but get himself broken in."

No matter what your definition of "establish" is, any reasonable person would disagree with the "really did nothing last season" portion of that sentence.

[Jimz31]

I think T-New was probably the most valuable player on the defense as he allowed the defense to do different things....better things.

I also agree that he is seemingly on his way to "franchise" status.

[big dog cowboy]

Pretty solid stats by Newman as a rookie. Now bidder and stronger he should have a sensational year.

[Skeptic]

In the "Vikings/Cowboys" thread, there exists a side discussion comparing A. Winfield of the Vikes against T. Newman.

While I think T. New even at this point is the superior player, I can see the merit in saying Winfield is better.

However I don't follow the logic when some say Terrance Newman isn't established, like they have in that thread. If I had to pick an MVP of the defense last year it would be T. New. Not that this really means an awful lot because all in all it is just an opinion.

That being said I do have stats to show how devastatingly effective T. New courtesy of our favorite "Statistician"...




Re-read those two paragraphs if you still don't think Newman is established.

1 touchdown given up all year... a crummy 7-yarder.
2 pass interference calls.
His 20 passes defended were among the league leaders.

If that isn't established I don't know what is.

And consider this... Look at the number of sacks per pass-attempt the Cowboys had in 2003 as compared to 2002. The Cowboys slashed almost 7 pass-attempts per sack from their 2002 numbers. Now ask yourself, who on the Cowboy defense could have had the biggest affect on those numbers? Heck we only changed a small handful of players from the 2002 defense to the 2003 defense... Willie Blade? Al Singleton? The two new backup DE's? I don't think so... And while this is strictly an opinion it was indeed Terrance Newman that caused the pass rush to improve as much as it did from 2002 to 2003.

T. Newman is already one of the best corners in the NFC. In 2004 he'll be one of the best in the NFL.

Bank it.


( clapping )

Great post. Both on your part and the poster you referenced.

Great post.

[Q_the_man]

Great post guys.....

I think Tnew will be one of the best.....

Well he has the qualities barring injury :mad:

Except for the Patriots game and the Carolina game, Tnew did everything except turn around.....Here's hoping we don't yell at Tnew the same way we yell at QC for his bonehead throws..... "Turn Newman Turn".

Otherwise our whole defense as a whole was great, even without pressure from Ekubust and PIs from PI Edwards ;)

I expect...Hmmm.... Newman, Roy and James to make excellent strides this year based on this is their true 2nd years with a great coach. And that goes for the rest of the team. No excuses ****it.

[BHendri5]

I think he did alright for a rookie. Some of you act like he was the second coming of Deion.
To me when most of you guys talk about Newman, you try and make it seem like he rivaled Sanders and he was no where close, IMO.
He may tackle little better than Deion right now, hopefully with more weight and muscle he will become a heck of a lot better at tackling than Deion.

there was a time when Deion was a pretty good Tackler, he just went away from tackling when he realized everyone feared him.

Regardless of the scheme or his passiveness or whatever, he did okay, but last season was a learning process for him, I do not care what anybody say.

He was a good draft pickup, even though I felt that we should have drafted the other top cornerback, who was bigger in size and a better tackler.

But they said that T-new was Deion like, and that is what I was looking for but I never saw that mentality, aggressiveness nothing, I just saw a good rookie CB, that did alright, and this season I expect him to do even better with One season under his belt.

I mean I want him to put fear in the opposing team's coaching staff. I have this mentality that I do not give up nothing.
It's like this with me if a receiver catches a pass on me that is a point for him, if i knock that pass down it is a point for me, if he catches a pass on 3rd down and it is for a first down that is 2points for him, if I intercept the ball anytime it is 2 points for me, if areceiver catches a td on me that is 3 points for them, if iI return an Int for a TD it is 3 points for me. that is how coaches broke it down for me back in the day.

Thats all I'm saying, I'm not knocking on T-New, he did an alright job for a rookie more than some and less than some before him.
I believe he will start making that legacy this season, Well I expect it, just like I expect Carter to put everything together this season.

I also expect the team to be better than they were last season even if they have the same record as last season. I expect them to win the division and to move deeper into the playoffs, Heck I expect them to win the SB this season.

[InmanRoshi]

Deion wasn't Deion his rookie year.

If we start holding all players up against the greatest to ever play their positions, then I'm afraid all players are going to fail to meet expectations. If you want to start using that standard, then we need to start holding Quincy to the standard of Joe Montana or John Elway.

[BHendri5]

If Deion is the standard for CB's, then we must make Joe Montana our standard for QB's.


I guess so. You do not like Montana? Sanders was the SH**
He put fear in the coaching staff.

[MichaelWinicki]

I think he did alright for a rookie. Some of you act like he was the second coming of Deion.
To me when most of you guys talk about Newman, you try and make it seem like he rivaled Sanders and he was no where close, IMO.
He may tackle little better than Deion right now, hopefully with more weight and muscle he will become a heck of a lot better at tackling than Deion.

there was a time when Deion was a pretty good Tackler, he just went away from tackling when he realized everyone feared him.

Regardless of the scheme or his passiveness or whatever, he did okay, but last season was a learning process for him, I do not care what anybody say.

He was a good draft pickup, even though I felt that we should have drafted the other top cornerback, who was bigger in size and a better tackler.

But they said that T-new was Deion like, and that is what I was looking for but I never saw that mentality, aggressiveness nothing, I just saw a good rookie CB, that did alright, and this season I expect him to do even better with One season under his belt.

I mean I want him to put fear in the opposing team's coaching staff. I have this mentality that I do not give up nothing.
It's like this with me if a receiver catches a pass on me that is a point for him, if i knock that pass down it is a point for me, if he catches a pass on 3rd down and it is for a first down that is 2points for him, if I intercept the ball anytime it is 2 points for me, if areceiver catches a td on me that is 3 points for them, if iI return an Int for a TD it is 3 points for me. that is how coaches broke it down for me back in the day.

Thats all I'm saying, I'm not knocking on T-New, he did an alright job for a rookie more than some and less than some before him.
I believe he will start making that legacy this season, Well I expect it, just like I expect Carter to put everything together this season.

I also expect the team to be better than they were last season even if they have the same record as last season. I expect them to win the division and to move deeper into the playoffs, Heck I expect them to win the SB this season.


"He did alright for a rookie?"

How in gods name do you think Dallas became the #1 defense against the pass last season? It wasn't through the sterling pass rush we had or the "shut-down" safety's or the magnificence of Mario "Mr. Interference" Edwards?

I find your statement to be incredulous...


And as far as putting fear into the opposing coaching staff, well he did that too, because no one was throwing his way in the last half of the season. He was avoided like the plague.

[BHendri5]

Deion wasn't Deion his rookie year.

If we start holding all players up against the greatest to ever play their positions, then I'm afraid all players are going to fail to meet expectations. If you want to start using that standard, then we need to start holding Quincy to the standard of Joe Montana or John Elway.


I do hold Quincy to the standard of Montana and Elway, that is why I've always said that Quincy's 4th season is the tell tale season for him. Those 2 guys did not win SB's in their first 3 seasons. They had to have the necessary players put around them before they won the SBs.

So who was a better rookie Deion or Newman?

[MichaelWinicki]

So who was a better rookie Deion or Newman?


You know that's a good question and I wouldn't rubber stamp Deion as being the better rookie.

Maybe someone can find the stats for how Deion did do his rookie year.

[BlueStar II]

I'm hoping that the reported 10 lbs. of muscle Newman added will give him more of an edge at jamming receivers at the line.

[BHendri5]

"He did alright for a rookie?"

How in gods name do you think Dallas became the #1 defense against the pass last season? It wasn't through the sterling pass rush we had or the "shut-down" safety's or the magnificence of Mario "Mr. Interference" Edwards?

I find your statement to be incredulous...


And as far as putting fear into the opposing coaching staff, well he did that too, because no one was throwing his way in the last half of the season. He was avoided like the plague.


You have got to be kidding me. You're going to sit there in front of your computer and tell me that our defense was number one because of Newman?
We already had a pretty good defense. His ability helped yes, he did alright he was pretty good, but I would not go as far as to say that he was the sole reason our defense was number 1.


You find my statment incredulous? Well I have to say back at you buddy.

Now the last part of your post was kinda funny. Now I did not see teams avoiding Newman, I saw throwing at him just as they did all season. I know I've said this in another post if I had a choice as to who I would throw at the most, well Edwards would have been the target, no question.

He was a PI waiting to happen. I guess on thanksgiving day Miami avoided him. I guess Philly avoided him, I guess the redskins avoided him, I guess the Panthers in that playoff game where Smith burned him and the safety.
I guess all those 2.4 yards a reception receivers and QBs avoided him. I guess all the pass defenses he had, were teams avoiding him.

He's good but do not try to make it seem like he is at the top of the heap yet. He has the potential to get there and I'm believing he will, but he is not there yet and his play was not where it will be this past season.

Take Roy, his first season was a learning process just like Newman's we know Newman can cover and he has speed, we knew that before he got here. We knew Roy was a playmaker and that he could hit like a ram, we also thought he had some pretty good covering skills, but we found out that he needs to get better at covering, just like we found out that Newman needs to get better at tackling.

You act like I'm calling the guy sorry or something, which is far from the truth.

[junk]

People fail to realize that Newman started from Day one as a rookie, played in every game, put up the stats that AdamJT13 mentioned and did most of this working on an island in man to man coverage without much safetly help. Incredible for a rookie cornerback. He is as established as any starting CB in the NFL and would start on ANY team at the CB position.

[BHendri5]

People fail to realize that Newman started from Day one as a rookie, played in every game, put up the stats that AdamJT13 mentioned and did most of this working on an island in man to man coverage without much safetly help. Incredible for a rookie cornerback. He is as established as any starting CB in the NFL and would start on ANY team at the CB position.

established on our team. Yes. But start on any team, maybe now since he has a season under his belt. but last season, he would have only started on teams that desparately needed CB help like we did.

[TheHustler]

People fail to realize that Newman started from Day one as a rookie, played in every game, put up the stats that AdamJT13 mentioned and did most of this working on an island in man to man coverage without much safetly help. Incredible for a rookie cornerback. He is as established as any starting CB in the NFL and would start on ANY team at the CB position.

you're putting newman up there with champ bailey, charles woodson, chris mcallister is ty law?

t newman is damn good, and will be great. but he aint there yet.

[Jimz31]

You have got to be kidding me. You're going to sit there in front of your computer and tell me that our defense was number one because of Newman?
We already had a pretty good defense. His ability helped yes, he did alright he was pretty good, but I would not go as far as to say that he was the sole reason our defense was number 1.


You find my statment incredulous? Well I have to say back at you buddy.

Now the last part of your post was kinda funny. Now I did not see teams avoiding Newman, I saw throwing at him just as they did all season. I know I've said this in another post if I had a choice as to who I would throw at the most, well Edwards would have been the target, no question.

He was a PI waiting to happen. I guess on thanksgiving day Miami avoided him. I guess Philly avoided him, I guess the redskins avoided him, I guess the Panthers in that playoff game where Smith burned him and the safety.
I guess all those 2.4 yards a reception receivers and QBs avoided him. I guess all the pass defenses he had, were teams avoiding him.

He's good but do not try to make it seem like he is at the top of the heap yet. He has the potential to get there and I'm believing he will, but he is not there yet and his play was not where it will be this past season.

Take Roy, his first season was a learning process just like Newman's we know Newman can cover and he has speed, we knew that before he got here. We knew Roy was a playmaker and that he could hit like a ram, we also thought he had some pretty good covering skills, but we found out that he needs to get better at covering, just like we found out that Newman needs to get better at tackling.

You act like I'm calling the guy sorry or something, which is far from the truth.

Uh, yep....our defense was number one due in LARGE PART because we could leave Newman one on one with his man ALLOWING our defense to do more things.

He is the biggest reason by far, IMO, that our defense was number one.

[junk]

established on our team. Yes. But start on any team, maybe now since he has a season under his belt. but last season, he would have only started on teams that desparately needed CB help like we did.

How many do you want me to list? There are a handful he wouldn't have start for in his rookie year.

Baltimore? Miami? Maybe Philly with healthy Vincent and Taylor? I think he probably would have started just about anywhere else.

Spin it anyway you want, this guy is good.

[MichaelWinicki]

You have got to be kidding me. You're going to sit there in front of your computer and tell me that our defense was number one because of Newman?
We already had a pretty good defense. His ability helped yes, he did alright he was pretty good, but I would not go as far as to say that he was the sole reason our defense was number 1.


You find my statment incredulous? Well I have to say back at you buddy.

Now the last part of your post was kinda funny. Now I did not see teams avoiding Newman, I saw throwing at him just as they did all season. I know I've said this in another post if I had a choice as to who I would throw at the most, well Edwards would have been the target, no question.

He was a PI waiting to happen. I guess on thanksgiving day Miami avoided him. I guess Philly avoided him, I guess the redskins avoided him, I guess the Panthers in that playoff game where Smith burned him and the safety.
I guess all those 2.4 yards a reception receivers and QBs avoided him. I guess all the pass defenses he had, were teams avoiding him.

He's good but do not try to make it seem like he is at the top of the heap yet. He has the potential to get there and I'm believing he will, but he is not there yet and his play was not where it will be this past season.

Take Roy, his first season was a learning process just like Newman's we know Newman can cover and he has speed, we knew that before he got here. We knew Roy was a playmaker and that he could hit like a ram, we also thought he had some pretty good covering skills, but we found out that he needs to get better at covering, just like we found out that Newman needs to get better at tackling.

You act like I'm calling the guy sorry or something, which is far from the truth.


Do you realize that Dallas went from 18th in total defense to #1 in the span of one year?

And who do you think, out of all the new players brought in prior to the 2003 season had the greatest impact on the betterment of that ranking? Al Singleton? Willie Blade? Who was it? It didn't happen by magic.

[junk]

Do you realize that Dallas went from 18th in total defense to #1 in the span of one year?

And who do you think, out of all the new players brought in prior to the 2003 season had the greatest impact on the betterment of that ranking? Al Singleton? Willie Blade? Who was it? It didn't happen by magic.


The answer here is obvious. Quincy Carter. His greatly improved offensive play benefitted the defense more than anything. I think his mere presence on the sideline, with the defense knowing he was the starter, inspired them to play even better. :D

[MichaelWinicki]

The answer here is obvious. Quincy Carter. His greatly improved offensive play benefitted the defense more than anything. I think his mere presence on the sideline, with the defense knowing he was the starter, inspired them to play even better. :D

Junk--you got me on that one.

I've been disarmed.

Congrats! :D

[junk]

Junk--you got me on that one.

I've been disarmed.

Congrats! :D


Just joking around obviously. Back on topic, I am a huge fan of Newman, I really don't think the team could have asked much more of him last year. He is going to be a great player and integral part of the defense for years to come. He definitely helped with the #1 overall ranking.

[AdamJT13]

but last season, he would have only started on teams that desparately needed CB help like we did.

ANY hope you ever had of making a credible argument, or earning any credibility, just went out the window by making a statement that ridiculously stupid. Congratulations.

[MichaelWinicki]

Just joking around obviously. Back on topic, I am a huge fan of Newman, I really don't think the team could have asked much more of him last year. He is going to be a great player and integral part of the defense for years to come. He definitely helped with the #1 overall ranking.

I for the life of me can't understand how anyone other than SBK could question Newman's worth to this team... and that's based on just his rookie year.

[blindzebra]

ANY hope you ever had of making a credible argument, or earning any credibility, just went out the window by making a statement that ridiculously stupid. Congratulations.

Having CowboynIRAQ and credibility in the same sentence is an oximoron.

[MichaelWinicki]

ANY hope you ever had of making a credible argument, or earning any credibility, just went out the window by making a statement that ridiculously stupid. Congratulations.


You know Adam it just floors me how someone could claim to know the sport, watch the Cowboys last season on a consistent basis and not realize how important this rookie was to the overall success of the team. It's just amazing.

[AdamJT13]

You know Adam it just floors me how someone could claim to know the sport, watch the Cowboys last season on a consistent basis and not realize how important this rookie was to the overall success of the team. It's just amazing.

I don't care if someone doesn't think Newman was one of the better cornerbacks in the league, or doesn't think he had a huge impact on our defense. Everyone has their own opinions. But saying that Newman wouldn't even start on most teams isn't a matter of opinion, it's just completely, utterly and outrageously wrong.

[BHendri5]

ANY hope you ever had of making a credible argument, or earning any credibility, just went out the window by making a statement that ridiculously stupid. Congratulations.


There you go with that Credibility crap. Did I ask you for any credit? I'll tell you what is stupid, For people to sit around and put that boy up there with established Cornerbacks already and he just got started.

How many times have we sat here and posted in this forum, after this season and talked about How our defense was not a true number one defense.

How many times have you and others during the season complained about our defense, especially our secondary.

I'm not going to sit up here and be an idiot and say that that kid, did all that for our defense, when I watched him do a good job considering he was a rookie, and I'm not going to say he did not get burnt we I clearly saw him get toasted several times last season.

So if he was not wearing jersey 41 and chasing recievers last season then I guess it was one of you guys and if so then that explains why number 41 was being burnt. LOL

[BHendri5]

It floors me how you guys can sit their and say you watch the games and miss all the stuff that you miss. let me guess you sit there with a bunch of guys drinking and talking thru out the game, laughing and making noise with every tackle, or you guys that kind of people?

[BHendri5]

you're putting newman up there with champ bailey, charles woodson, chris mcallister is ty law?

t newman is damn good, and will be great. but he aint there yet.


Hustler, that is exactly what they are trying to say. I'm saying that the kid is good, he played real good for a rookie but he is not in the class with guys like that, not yet.

[BHendri5]

Uh, yep....our defense was number one due in LARGE PART because we could leave Newman one on one with his man ALLOWING our defense to do more things.

He is the biggest reason by far, IMO, that our defense was number one.


Your CBs are suppose to be left on an island, that is nothing new. If you cannot leave your corner to play man to man by himself really what good is he?

[BHendri5]

How many do you want me to list? There are a handful he wouldn't have start for in his rookie year.

Baltimore? Miami? Maybe Philly with healthy Vincent and Taylor? I think he probably would have started just about anywhere else.

Spin it anyway you want, this guy is good.

Name them. I thought there were 32 teams in the league? If that is true then you need to add at least 8,9 or 10 more teams to that list.

[blindzebra]

Name them. I thought there were 32 teams in the league? If that is true then you need to add at least 8,9 or 10 more teams to that list.

He said he would have started for all but those teams, what 8 or 9 are you talking about? Newman would have started for AT LEAST 29 out of 32 teams.

You talk like you are an expert on football, but you have again and again posted some of the most ignorant crap I've ever read. Let me guess Airman Daly is up to his old tricks.

[BHendri5]

He said he would have started for all but those teams, what 8 or 9 are you talking about? Newman would have started for AT LEAST 29 out of 32 teams.

You talk like you are an expert on football, but you have again and again posted some of the most ignorant crap I've ever read. Let me guess Airman Daly is up to his old tricks.


No, you talk and post stats like you are some experts,. But I'll let you in on something , there are no experts, it is all a crap shoot.

I'll tell you what, I'll gladly take being ignorant rather than to go along with some of the crap you and others post on here.

so You can just call me ignorant Cowboy fan. LOL
Shucks, it doesn't rile me a bit, jethro. But this har ignorant bumpkin do know that Newman would not have started for 29 of the 32 teams.

[BHendri5]

those stripes might be doing something to you.

[LaTunaNostra]

But this har ignorant bumpkin do know that Newman would not have started for 29 of the 32 teams.

Sarge, this is what I learned from both living in and traveling thru the Middle East in the summer months.

Do NOT go out between noon and three PM.

It rattles your brain. :D

I think you mean TNew would have started for 29 of 32 teams.

[InmanRoshi]

I might be able to talk your argument more seriously if you specifically pointed out which argument you're making ... that Newman didn't play well enough to earn a spot on more NFL teams or that Newman isn't elite yet.. You change it on a constant basis depending on when you've been backed into a corner.

I would love to actually see a list of teams Newman couldn't have cracked the starting lineup.

When I see your list, then we can differentiate their standing in the NFL in pass defense vs. the Cowboys, and test your hypothosis.

.... I'll be waiting.

[BHendri5]

here's one.

Without knowing the other teams personell, I'd say ...not many. NOONE likes starting a rookie CB. More often than not, it is a sign of desperation. And a bad omen of things to come during the season.
__________________

[LaTunaNostra]

here's one.

Without knowing the other teams personell, I'd say ...not many. NOONE likes starting a rookie CB. More often than not, it is a sign of desperation. And a bad omen of things to come during the season.
__________________
No one likes starting a mid to late round rookie CB, granted.

But the fifth pick overall?

[BHendri5]

Sarge, this is what I learned from both living in and traveling thru the Middle East in the summer months.

Do NOT go out between noon and three PM.

It rattles your brain. :D

I think you mean TNew would have started for 29 of 32 teams.


Hey it is hot, we have some air conditioning in our sleeping quarters. It is so hot that I take cold showers, but the cold water is not cold at all. But I'm always sleep by Noon in the cool.

he would not have started for 29 of the 32 teams, now if that guy had put down a lesser number I would be incline to agree with him.

[speedkilz88]

There you go with that Credibility crap. Did I ask you for any credit? I'll tell you what is stupid, For people to sit around and put that boy up there with established Cornerbacks already and he just got started.

How many times have we sat here and posted in this forum, after this season and talked about How our defense was not a true number one defense.

How many times have you and others during the season complained about our defense, especially our secondary.

I'm not going to sit up here and be an idiot and say that that kid, did all that for our defense, when I watched him do a good job considering he was a rookie, and I'm not going to say he did not get burnt we I clearly saw him get toasted several times last season.

So if he was not wearing jersey 41 and chasing recievers last season then I guess it was one of you guys and if so then that explains why number 41 was being burnt. LOL

Burnt/toasted several times? Do you mean you saw him burnt deep at least seven times? Could you please list all those times that he was burnt deep. Then could you list the times that Woodson, Bailey, and McAlister were beat deep.

[blindzebra]

here's one.

Without knowing the other teams personell, I'd say ...not many. NOONE likes starting a rookie CB. More often than not, it is a sign of desperation. And a bad omen of things to come during the season.
__________________

Jammer is the only high first round CB in resent history that DID NOT start right out of the gate, and that had more to do with him holding out than him being a rookie.

Bailey, Springs, Woodson, and your own Trufant all started as rookies.

Airman Daly get off that damn computer.

[BHendri5]

I might be able to talk your argument more seriously if you specifically pointed out which argument you're making ... that Newman didn't play well enough to earn a spot on more NFL teams or that Newman isn't elite yet.. You change it on a constant basis depending on when you've been backed into a corner.

I would love to actually see a list of teams Newman couldn't have cracked the starting lineup.

When I see your list, then we can differentiate their standing in the NFL in pass defense vs. the Cowboys, and test your hypothosis.

.... I'll be waiting.


I do not feel I like I'm backed into a corner. See that is another thing you say I've been backed into a corner, and I have not. You say I change my argument but I do not. it is the others who keep spinning things switching their arguments, my arguments and Opinions stay consistent.

If youhave read my posts, you will that I have said constantly that Newman is good, but that he has not reach the top status yet, he has only played one season. Hustler is the only one who understands what I'm saying.

You and the others are trying to put that boy in the class with the top CBs in the league already, and he is not there yet, I never said that he wouldn't get there, I'm saying he is not there yet.

Then they come back with stats about the defense being #1, and that he would start for all the teams, so i try to cover there constant changes in their arguments. Like well if teams were as desparate for corner help as we were yes, he would have started. I agree with them. But I guess they did not like the word desparate (I don't know, it beats me LOL).

I know the kid was the 5th pick, and you want them on the field so that they can start learning, it is not like drafting a QB with your 5th pick, most of the time you want your high pick that is a QB to watch if you have the luxury of having a vet around to mentor him.

I'm just saying based off of some of them the things he had problems with last season that his play was not as great as some are trying to say it was. Some coaches would have started him, so you have to take into account that those coaches would have made him watch or play the nickel back, then there are the teams that has established CBs that he would not have been able to replace just yet.

I know you guys like to argue with me and that is all good, but no need toget angry LOL. I don't

[AJM1613]

Jammer is the only high first round CB in resent history that DID NOT start right out of the gate, and that had more to do with him holding out than him being a rookie.

Bailey, Springs, Woodson, and your own Trufant all started as rookies.

Airman Daly get off that damn computer.
Who ever you draft that high is expected to be a starter, unless it is a QB. It is a sign of desperation, because that is why you drafted them, you needed a CB.

[AJM1613]

To the guy who asked for a list of teams Newman wouldn't start for last year:

Miami
Philadelphia (baring injury)
Tampa Bay

Teams that he might have not started for:
Tennesse
New York Giants
Buffalo

[BHendri5]

another poster's comment.

Newman played one on one coverage very well last year for a rookie. If he can learn to find the ball while it's in the air, I think he has a great shot at being a top corner in the league.

I agree with this and I have said that he played very well. This is also what I called being burnt/toasted, also (If He can learn to find the ball while it is in the air) it does not soley mean getting beat deep.

where did the 7 times come from? I said several, several means 7?

Relax fellows The guy has skills he just has not got to where he will get not yet anyway. Loosen your boxers. LOL

[BHendri5]

Who ever you draft that high is expected to be a starter, unless it is a QB. It is a sign of desperation, because that is why you drafted them, you needed a CB.

I said that, in an earlier post Adam.

[junk]

Hey it is hot, we have some air conditioning in our sleeping quarters. It is so hot that I take cold showers, but the cold water is not cold at all. But I'm always sleep by Noon in the cool.

he would not have started for 29 of the 32 teams, now if that guy had put down a lesser number I would be incline to agree with him.

OK, lets do it this way. What a pain in my ***. I will list each team I think Newman could start on and those I think he could NOT start on. This is from last year. Most would probably not change to this year.

Newman would start:
Carolina, NO, Atlanta, TB, Chicago, Detroit, Minnesota, New York Giants, Washington, Arizona, St. Louis, SF, Seattle, Buffalo, NE, New York Jets, Cincy, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Houston, Indy, Jacksonville, Denver, KC, Oakland and SD. (oh and Dallas!)

Newman would probably start, but there would actually be a battle:
GB, Tennessee, Philly

Might not start:
Miami and Baltimore (would probably battle Baxter though)

Now the ball is in your court. Who would he have started over on the 27 teams I have him listed as for sure starting on? Personally I really think he could be out Dyson, so count Tennessee and make it 27.

[BHendri5]

To the guy who asked for a list of teams Newman wouldn't start for last year:

Miami
Philadelphia (baring injury)
Tampa Bay

Teams that he might have not started for:
Tennesse
New York Giants
Buffalo


Okay that is 6, already that is more than a handful, that one poster said.
come on you can name some more, it will not hurt you. LOL

[BHendri5]

OK, lets do it this way. What a pain in my ***. I will list each team I think Newman could start on and those I think he could NOT start on. This is from last year. Most would probably not change to this year.

Newman would start:
Carolina, NO, Atlanta, TB, Chicago, Detroit, Minnesota, New York Giants, Washington, Arizona, St. Louis, SF, Seattle, Buffalo, NE, New York Jets, Cincy, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Houston, Indy, Jacksonville, Denver, KC, Oakland and SD. (oh and Dallas!)

Newman would probably start, but there would actually be a battle:
GB, Tennessee, Philly

Might not start:
Miami and Baltimore (would probably battle Baxter though)

Now the ball is in your court. Who would he have started over on the 27 teams I have him listed as for sure starting on? Personally I really think he could be out Dyson, so count Tennessee and make it 27.



Hahahaha, You might want to take a look at Adam's list he has better grip than you do.

[junk]

Your CBs are suppose to be left on an island, that is nothing new. If you cannot leave your corner to play man to man by himself really what good is he?

Most corners are not left on an island, at least not to the extent that Newman was. A lot of teams play zone and alot of teams roll safety help over.

[junk]

Hahahaha, You might want to take a look at Adam's list he has better grip than you do.

I see you couldn't answer the question.

[BHendri5]

Most corners are not left on an island, at least not to the extent that Newman was. A lot of teams play zone and alot of teams roll safety help over.


So we don't roll safety help over? how bout our safeties can't cover so we could not tell if the safety was suppose to help or not.

[BHendri5]

I see you couldn't answer the question.

I'm want to give you another opportunity to revamp your list. Cause I think you do not really believe that he would have started for all those teams. You cannot play a player. :)

[junk]

To the guy who asked for a list of teams Newman wouldn't start for last year:

Miami
Philadelphia (baring injury)
Tampa Bay

Teams that he might have not started for:
Tennesse
New York Giants
Buffalo

I think Newman would beat out Brian Kelly in Tampa pretty easy. Maybe not Barber, but he is better than Kelly. I also think he would be out Dyson, but that might be a good battle. Buffalo? I think he is better than Clements. The Giants? I think he could be either Allen or Peterson.

Anyway, the whole point is, he would have started for a lot of teams. The vast majority in fact.

[junk]

I'm want to give you another opportunity to revamp your list.


I stand by my list and my statements. Enough of the excuses, why don't you answer the question?

[AJM1613]

Hahahaha, You might want to take a look at Adam's list he has better grip than you do.
It's pretty funny he said that Newman would battle Al Harris for the starting job in GB, and battle Bobby Taylor in Philadelphia last year. Al Harris has been Philadelphia's Nickle Back before last year.

There wouldn't be any battle in Philadelphia last year if Newman was on the team, he would be the nickleback or maybe the dime back because Reid doesn't like playing rookies (Andrews is the first rookie starting since Simon in 2000). Jerome McDougle, Billy McMullen and Jamaal Green barely played at all ast year.

[blindzebra]

Hahahaha, You might want to take a look at Adam's list he has better grip than you do.

That is not Adam you dolt, that is an Eagle troll, that is wrong about EVERY opinion he has on football.

Airman Daly is that you?

[blindzebra]

It's pretty funny he said that Newman would battle Al Harris for the starting job in GB, and battle Bobby Taylor in Philadelphia last year. Al Harris has been Philadelphia's Nickle Back before last year.

There wouldn't be any battle in Philadelphia last year if Newman was on the team, he would be the nickleback or maybe the dime back because Reid doesn't like playing rookies (Andrews is the first rookie starting since Simon in 2000). Jerome McDougle, Billy McMullen and Jamaal Green barely played at all ast year.

I believe they were part of all those injuries that kept your defense down. They did not play because they got hurt, remember?

[junk]

It's pretty funny he said that Newman would battle Al Harris for the starting job in GB, and battle Bobby Taylor in Philadelphia last year. Al Harris has been Philadelphia's Nickle Back before last year.

There wouldn't be any battle in Philadelphia last year if Newman was on the team, he would be the nickleback or maybe the dime back because Reid doesn't like playing rookies (Andrews is the first rookie starting since Simon in 2000). Jerome McDougle, Billy McMullen and Jamaal Green barely played at all ast year.

Who said anything about battling Bobby Taylor? Philly had good corners last year (when healthy), hence they were on my original list of three. This year, in Philly, I think he would easily win a starting spot. Al Harris/Mike McKenzie are established vets who are solid, not spectacular. Newman would have battled those guys, he may not have been the starter immediately.

[BHendri5]

I think Newman would beat out Brian Kelly in Tampa pretty easy. Maybe not Barber, but he is better than Kelly. I also think he would be out Dyson, but that might be a good battle. Buffalo? I think he is better than Clements. The Giants? I think he could be either Allen or Peterson.

Anyway, the whole point is, he would have started for a lot of teams. The vast majority in fact.

there is about 7 more that should be added to Adam's list. 19 out of 32 teams is not bad, it is very good in fact.

[junk]

there is about 7 more that should be added to Adam's list. 19 out of 32 teams is not bad, it is very good in fact.

Sure, what are they? I noticed you still haven't answered.

[LaTunaNostra]

Hey it is hot, we have some air conditioning in our sleeping quarters. It is so hot that I take cold showers, but the cold water is not cold at all. But I'm always sleep by Noon in the cool.



You probably know what "zaki" means by now - smart.

Hang in there Sarge, and I'm taping ALL the Cowboys preseason games for ya. Just let me know if your APO changed. :p

Now I'll let you get back to your Alamo-like stand off here. LMAO!

[BHendri5]

Most corners are not left on an island, at least not to the extent that Newman was. A lot of teams play zone and alot of teams roll safety help over.


Being left on an island as a cornerback is nothing new, that is their job. They are suppose to handle that.

I did not say that he couldn't, so don't go that route.

[BHendri5]

I stand by my list and my statements. Enough of the excuses, why don't you answer the question?


You stand by your list. Well that's just being plain bull headed. :)

[AJM1613]

I think Newman would beat out Brian Kelly in Tampa pretty easy. Maybe not Barber, but he is better than Kelly. I also think he would be out Dyson, but that might be a good battle. Buffalo? I think he is better than Clements. The Giants? I think he could be either Allen or Peterson.

Anyway, the whole point is, he would have started for a lot of teams. The vast majority in fact.
I think that Kelly is a different type of CB, and fits the Bucs' system better. Barber is one of the most underrated CBs in the NFL, as much as it pains me to say it.
I don't think that he would beat out Dyson, Dyson is a very good CB. Dyson is also younger than Newman which is weird considering he has been in the league three years.

I hate the Giants but Allen and Peterson are good. I think there would be a battle. Clements is the same way. I think he might not start for either one of those teams last year.

Remember that the veterans have to loose the job on teams like that, and I don't think that Clements, Allen, or Peterson would. A second year Newman would beat out Clements most likely, but I am not sure about Allen or Peterson. The held Todd Pinkston and James Thrash 1 catch the first game and you know they are all pros... ;)

[BHendri5]

That is not Adam you dolt, that is an Eagle troll, that is wrong about EVERY opinion he has on football.

Airman Daly is that you?


All I paid attention to was the Capital A. He is spot on right now though.

[AJM1613]

I believe they were part of all those injuries that kept your defense down. They did not play because they got hurt, remember?
Yeah I know, I was originally going to just say McMullen, but I thought that if I put down all three of them there would be more of an effect. :D

[junk]

I think that Kelly is a different type of CB, and fits the Bucs' system better. Barber is one of the most underrated CBs in the NFL, as much as it pains me to say it.
I don't think that he would beat out Dyson, Dyson is a very good CB. Dyson is also younger than Newman which is weird considering he has been in the league three years.

I hate the Giants but Allen and Peterson are good. I think there would be a battle. Clements is the same way. I think he might not start for either one of those teams last year.

Remember that the veterans have to loose the job on teams like that, and I don't think that Clements, Allen, or Peterson would. A second year Newman would beat out Clements most likely, but I am not sure about Allen or Peterson. The held Todd Pinkston and James Thrash 1 catch the first game and you know they are all pros... ;)

Hey valid reasoning and logic behind your arguments. That is like a ray of sunshine. I can see your points I guess and my unabashed homerism probably elevates Newman a little higher than maybe he should be. However, it still doesn't dispute the fact that he would start for the large majority of the teams in the NFL, which I believe is the point of this argument, although it is likely to change on me before too long. :D

[BHendri5]

Who said anything about battling Bobby Taylor? Philly had good corners last year (when healthy), hence they were on my original list of three. This year, in Philly, I think he would easily win a starting spot. Al Harris/Mike McKenzie are established vets who are solid, not spectacular. Newman would have battled those guys, he may not have been the starter immediately.


You did not name any names other than Kelly,

[AJM1613]

That is not Adam you dolt, that is an Eagle troll, that is wrong about EVERY opinion he has on football.

Airman Daly is that you?
You STILL arn't agreeing with me about Dawkins...It's sad really. Let it go, admitt your wrong. I was wrong about 1 thing, lied about another, and kicked your a** on the last.

[AJM1613]

Who said anything about battling Bobby Taylor? Philly had good corners last year (when healthy), hence they were on my original list of three. This year, in Philly, I think he would easily win a starting spot. Al Harris/Mike McKenzie are established vets who are solid, not spectacular. Newman would have battled those guys, he may not have been the starter immediately.
My point is that he would beat out Harris in a few games. Harris (as much as I love the guy) isn't great, but he was a great NB for us. He gets called on a lot of penalities, but is solid.

Clements, Allen and Peterson are all a lot better.

[BHendri5]

You probably know what "zaki" means by now - smart.

Hang in there Sarge, and I'm taping ALL the Cowboys preseason games for ya. Just let me know if your APO changed. :p

Now I'll let you get back to your Alamo-like stand off here. LMAO!


hey I was thinking how I was going to get preseason games this season. We have AFN here now and I should be able to watch the games on Fox, becasue AFN carries all the Fox games. Originally I am suppose to be back in Sept. but they have been talking about extending my tour to Jan. So the games that will not be on Fox I will miss. I tired to get my little Brother to tape the Thanksgiving day game and the New England game for me last year but he forgot, he has bowling on the brain. That is almsot as bad as golf.

[junk]

You did not name any names other than Kelly,

And you haven't done anything but squawk. I am still waiting for you to name the other teams you mentioned that he wouldn't start on. You do that, and I will provide you a list of every player I think could beat him out and a rebuttal to your supposed teams where he could not start.

I thought when I said the ball is in your court I was pretty clear. I will simplify it for you. I did some research and made an argument. I would like you to tell me WHY you think that is wrong.

[BHendri5]

Hey valid reasoning and logic behind your arguments. That is like a ray of sunshine. I can see your points I guess and my unabashed homerism probably elevates Newman a little higher than maybe he should be. However, it still doesn't dispute the fact that he would start for the large majority of the teams in the NFL, which I believe is the point of this argument, although it is likely to change on me before too long. :D


What is this homerism stuff? If it is because of how you feel about Newman, then there is nothing wrong with that, heck I do not knock anyone for beign that way.

I'll take being called a homer everyday all day long if that is the case. i just say some things be more realistic and try not to overexaggerate.
If you know your player is good and he is still young, you know he will get to where you will be able to say those things about him, you were just jumping the gun a little.

I think he will be great, that is why I expect him to be more aggressive this season especially when the ball is in the air, I think he played timid because he was a rookie and he did not want to mess up.

I expect boldness from our corners, even when they are playing within the scheme. You know this is my side of the field, when you look to pass this way, expect the ball to be going back the other way, that type of attitude.

[junk]

What is this homerism stuff? If it is because of how you feel about Newman, then there is nothing wrong with that, heck I do not knock anyone for beign that way.

I'll take being called a homer everyday all day long if that is the case. i just say some things be more realistic and try not to overexaggerate.
If you know your player is good and he is still young, you know he will get to where you will be able to say those things about him, you were just jumping the gun a little.

I think he will be great, that is why I expect him to be more aggressive this season especially when the ball is in the air, I think he played timid because he was a rookie and he did not want to mess up.

I expect boldness from our corners, even when they are playing within the scheme. You know this is my side of the field, when you look to pass this way, expect the ball to be going back the other way, that type of attitude.

Looking for a list of those other teams....hmmm, still don't see it.

[MichaelWinicki]

Looking for a list of those other teams....hmmm, still don't see it.


Junk... maybe your request isn't clear enough? Can you simplify it? :D

[jay cee]

Do you realize that Dallas went from 18th in total defense to #1 in the span of one year?

And who do you think, out of all the new players brought in prior to the 2003 season had the greatest impact on the betterment of that ranking? Al Singleton? Willie Blade? Who was it? It didn't happen by magic.

I'll bet if they added Newman, and kept the old coaching staff they wouldn't have gone from 18th to 1st.

[AJM1613]

I'll bet if they added Newman, and kept the old coaching staff they wouldn't have gone from 18th to 1st.
Yeah they are seriously giving way to much credit to Newman, he is a good CB but it was Parcells who brought up the defensive rankings.

[MichaelWinicki]

I'll bet if they added Newman, and kept the old coaching staff they wouldn't have gone from 18th to 1st.


Good question jay cee. Hard to say what would have happened. Certainly the turn-a-round of the team has to be credited to a lot of folks including obviously the coaching staff. But Dallas has had the reputation of playing an aggressive style defense going back when Jimmy was here. Certainly "Pup" was a very good corner and played a great man-to-man defense. No need to describe what kind of defense we played when Deion was here.

The Cowboys went to that soft zone when our rush defense cratered in 2000. But when Newman arrived, the soft zone was bannished... and the aggressive man-to-man re-introduced.

I think the whole defensive coaching staff wanted to go more aggressive. I'm sure Campo did too but he didn't have a shut-down corner like Newman in order to do that.

Yeah, the new coaching staff helped but you need to have the players to carry out the scheme... and in Terrance Newman they had the player.

[junk]

Junk... maybe your request isn't clear enough? Can you simplify it? :D

I give up, I am going to go argue with my lamp. I think it will be more rewarding.

[MichaelWinicki]

Yeah they are seriously giving way to much credit to Newman, he is a good CB but it was Parcells who brought up the defensive rankings.


Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe last year was the first year--ever that Bill Parcells had a defense ranked #1 overall.

A coach without players is well... not as good a coach.

And don't forget the defensive coordinator was the same from the Campo era...

[jay cee]

Good question jay cee. Hard to say what would have happened. Certainly the turn-a-round of the team has to be credited to a lot of folks including obviously the coaching staff. But Dallas has had the reputation of playing an aggressive style defense going back when Jimmy was here. Certainly "Pup" was a very good corner and played a great man-to-man defense. No need to describe what kind of defense we played when Deion was here.

The Cowboys went to that soft zone when our rush defense cratered in 2000. But when Newman arrived, the soft zone was bannished... and the aggressive man-to-man re-introduced.

I think the whole defensive coaching staff wanted to go more aggressive. I'm sure Campo did too but he didn't have a shut-down corner like Newman in order to do that.

Yeah, the new coaching staff helped but you need to have the players to carry out the scheme... and in Terrance Newman they had the player.

I don't see the big issue. Newman played really well last year as a rookie. And I expect him to play better this year. I doubt if he was a top ten corner last year, but I think he can be one of the best this year.

[MichaelWinicki]

I don't see the big issue. Newman played really well last year as a rookie. And I expect him to play better this year. I doubt if he was a top ten corner last year, but I think he can be one of the best this year.


I think it was Adam's opinion from another thread that Newman was at the very least #11 and at the very best around #7.

If you just take his position as the 3rd alternate for the NFC squad I think he's on the cusp of making the top 10. And with Champ, Taylor and Vincent all going over to the AFC I think Newman has as good a chance as anyone to make the NFC Pro-Bowl roster this year.

[Tio]

The way newman played for us...You have to be a very very very negatice/pessimest to think he wasn't great for a rookie standards and really good for any corner's standard. No matter what you say, he showed his instincts for sticking to a reciever and was asked to day much more than most corners in the nfl. Teams did avoid him. He shut down the likes of price, boldin, moulds, coles and others. He played better than any rookie corner i can think of in recent years.

[MichaelWinicki]

He played better than any rookie corner i can think of in recent years.


You make a solid point here.

I remember when Champ came into the league and the Cowboys abusing him.

I think we would have to go back to Deion's rookie season to find a comparable rookie performance.

[Nors]

and the rest of our corners. Were great at covering their guy but never adjusting to the ball. Pass interference and balls off the helmet were maddening!

That said, Tnew reminded me a lot of D Green of Skins. Fast as snat and on everything. Tnew will get better and we will prosper..........He is always stride for stride on all plays.

[AJM1613]

I think it was Adam's opinion from another thread that Newman was at the very least #11 and at the very best around #7.

If you just take his position as the 3rd alternate for the NFC squad I think he's on the cusp of making the top 10. And with Champ, Taylor and Vincent all going over to the AFC I think Newman has as good a chance as anyone to make the NFC Pro-Bowl roster this year.
Taylor is in Seattle, they are in the NFC.

[MichaelWinicki]

Taylor is in Seattle, they are in the NFC.


Er... my error.

Not that it will matter much.

[AJM1613]

Er... my error.

Not that it will matter much.
IMO, if Taylor can play like he did last year (when healthy), he is better than Newman and will make the Pro Bowl over him.

He is in a similar system in Seattle (Andy Sr. and Rhodes) and should do good there, he is one of the best cover corners in the NFL. That being said he is a bad tackler and is slowing down so he might not be as good.

You have to take in account Sheppard too :p

[BHendri5]

This is based on last season not this season.

Miami (No Question)
Tampa (NQ)
Philly(if healthy, NQ)
Titans
Giants
Bills
Panthers (we saw this first hand in the playoff game)
Washington (althought it would have been a tight battle with him and smoot)
Seattle
New England (N Q)
Houston
GB
Oakland

[AJM1613]

This is based on last season not this season.

Miami (No Question)
Tampa (NQ)
Philly(if healthy, NQ)
Titans
Giants
Bills
Panthers (we saw this first hand in the playoff game)
Washington (althought it would have been a tight battle with him and smoot)
Seattle
New England (N Q)
Houston
GB
Oakland
He would have started over Poole and Manning Jr. He would have started over Lucas. He would have started over Harris.

[speedkilz88]

I doubt Taylor can beat out Ken Lucas, he will probably come in the nickel packages.

[AJM1613]

I doubt Taylor can beat out Ken Lucas, he will probably come in the nickel packages.
That's retarded...

[jobberone]

Hustler, that is exactly what they are trying to say. I'm saying that the kid is good, he played real good for a rookie but he is not in the class with guys like that, not yet.

I never compared him to anybody. I did say I thought he tackled better than Deion. I'm not putting him in Deion's class nor do I care to compare a rookie with anyone else except a CBs rookie season.

The point you made was he did ok for a rookie. I disagree. I think he had a very solid year for a NFL CB and for a rookie I think he did really a spectacular job. And I'm trying to be conservative in what I say.

You cannot argue that because he was toasted he was just ok. Every All-Pro CB gets burnt. That's the nature of the beast.

You are wrong for saying he was just ok. You can try to defend that but you are not going to get many bites with that bait. The wrong part is what I consider to be a fact within a reasonable degree of certainty and not an opinion BTW.

I do agree with you he needs to keep doing what he's doing and I would expect him to elevate his play. Then I agree you can start comparing him to other elite CBs in the league.

Name up to ten CBs you would rather have irregardless of cap/salary considerations for the next 5-10 years.

[AJM1613]

I never compared him to anybody. I did say I thought he tackled better than Deion. I'm not putting him in Deion's class nor do I care to compare a rookie with anyone else except a CBs rookie season.

The point you made was he did ok for a rookie. I disagree. I think he had a very solid year for a NFL CB and for a rookie I think he did really a spectacular job. And I'm trying to be conservative in what I say.

You cannot argue that because he was toasted he was just ok. Every All-Pro CB gets burnt. That's the nature of the beast.

You are wrong for saying he was just ok. You can try to defend that but you are not going to get many bites with that bait. The wrong part is what I consider to be a fact within a reasonable degree of certainty and not an opinion BTW.

I do agree with you he needs to keep doing what he's doing and I would expect him to elevate his play. Then I agree you can start comparing him to other elite CBs in the league.

Name up to ten CBs you would rather have irregardless of cap/salary considerations for the next 5-10 years.
01. Chris McAlister
02. Charles Woodson
03. Patrick Surtain
04. Champ Bailey
05. Marcus Trufant
06. DeAngelo Hall (Yes I know, potential)

He could go up or down on this list, he only has 1 season under his belt.

[jobberone]

01. Chris McAlister
02. Charles Woodson
03. Patrick Surtain
04. Champ Bailey
05. Marcus Trufant
06. DeAngelo Hall (Yes I know, potential)

He could go up or down on this list, he only has 1 season under his belt.

McAlister, Woodson, Surtain, and Bailey are starting their seventh or eighth seasons. McAlister, Surtain and Bailey are better now but I wouldn't trade them straight up for Newman who is starting his second year.

Woodson will not be the player Newman is this year due to injuries. He is on the downswing. I wouldn't even put him in the top ten CBs in the league.

Trufant may or may not be better but I wouldn't trade him st8 up either. Newman had a better rookie season but that's just my opinion. I would put him on my list too.

Hall is a rookie and not worthy of being on the list IMO. He hasn't played one down yet.

Even if I throw in Trufant, you only have McAlistair, Bailey, and Patrick. Woodson is not worthy. Short list.

[Tio]

01. Chris McAlister
02. Charles Woodson
03. Patrick Surtain
04. Champ Bailey
05. Marcus Trufant
06. DeAngelo Hall (Yes I know, potential)

He could go up or down on this list, he only has 1 season under his belt.Why on earth you even consider 5 & 6 is showing why hardly anyone takes you serious anymore. It isn't about biased for the eagles, its about biased against the cowboys...

[InmanRoshi]

That's retarded...

At this camp, which concludes tomorrow, Lucas has been working on the right side, Trufant at left corner and Taylor as the nickel corner who covers the slot receiver.

http://www.nflplayers.com/news/news_release.asp?id=2370

[InmanRoshi]

This is based on last season not this season.

Miami (No Question)
Tampa (NQ)
Philly(if healthy, NQ)
Titans
Giants
Bills
Panthers (we saw this first hand in the playoff game)
Washington (althought it would have been a tight battle with him and smoot)
Seattle
New England (N Q)
Houston
GB
Oakland


When you put Houston on that list, that loud "Whhoosssshing" noise you hear is your credibility flying out the window.

[TwoDeep3]

To me when most of you guys talk about Newman, you try and make it seem like he rivaled Sanders and he was no where close, IMO. I suppose its whose ox is being gored as to what response you get.

I could have sworn in another thread you were actually trying to make a,link between Aikman and Carter.

From this post it would seem you understand the foolishness of that comparison.

[blindzebra]

This is based on last season not this season.

Miami (No Question)
Tampa (NQ)
Philly(if healthy, NQ)
Titans
Giants
Bills
Panthers (we saw this first hand in the playoff game)
Washington (althought it would have been a tight battle with him and smoot)
Seattle
New England (N Q)
Houston
GB
Oakland

Kind of stupid to talk about not starting a rookie CB and he includes Seattle and Carolina who both were starting rookies.

In order for Newman to not start a team would need two very good corners, only Miami truely fits. Some of the other teams are close, but 2/3 of this list is not even close.

[junk]

This is based on last season not this season.

Miami (No Question)
Tampa (NQ)
Philly(if healthy, NQ)
Titans
Giants
Bills
Panthers (we saw this first hand in the playoff game)
Washington (althought it would have been a tight battle with him and smoot)
Seattle
New England (N Q)
Houston
GB
Oakland

Miami -- Agreed. I said that earlier.
Tampa -- I am pretty sure Newman could beat out Brian Kelly. And he would push Barber. Hardly no question.
Philly -- Agreed. I mentioned them as well.
Titans -- I think he could beat Dyson. Rolle is solid.
Giants -- Allen and Peterson. These guys don't impress me. I think he would start.
Bills -- Earlier in this thread, I said I thought he could beat out Clements.
Panthers -- What? Did you watch the Super Bowl? He could be out Manning, Jr. or Poole
Washington -- He would easily beat Smoot. Bailey is solid.
Seattle -- Started Trufant (another rookie). He would beat him.
NE -- Law is solid. I think Newman could be Tyrone Poole. Hardly no question.
Houston -- Hmm, didn't Houston draft a cornerback this year? And aren't they talking of moving Marcus Coleman to safety because he is old and slow? Newman would have started.
GB -- Maybe. Two solid entrenched vet starters. Would have been tough to crack the starting lineup initially.
Oakland -- Their two corners can't even stay healthy so that would have given Newman a leg up anyone. There are concerns out of Oakland that Buchanon might be a bust. Funny, they brought in tons of corners this offseason too.

You forgot Baltimore. He would have had a hard time with McAllister/Baxter. In my most conservative case, I can only see him not starting for 7 teams. I personally really think the number is something more like 3 or 4. Pretty good for a rookie.

[MichaelWinicki]

I for the life of me couldn't see how anyone in their right mind could think Smoot could hold off Newman going head to head.

No way Al Harris is better than Newman.

And the NYG corners aren't in Newman's league either.

[AJM1613]

Miami -- Agreed. I said that earlier.
Tampa -- I am pretty sure Newman could beat out Brian Kelly. And he would push Barber. Hardly no question.
Philly -- Agreed. I mentioned them as well.
Titans -- I think he could beat Dyson. Rolle is solid.
Giants -- Allen and Peterson. These guys don't impress me. I think he would start.
Bills -- Earlier in this thread, I said I thought he could beat out Clements.
Panthers -- What? Did you watch the Super Bowl? He could be out Manning, Jr. or Poole
Washington -- He would easily beat Smoot. Bailey is solid.
Seattle -- Started Trufant (another rookie). He would beat him.
NE -- Law is solid. I think Newman could be Tyrone Poole. Hardly no question.
Houston -- Hmm, didn't Houston draft a cornerback this year? And aren't they talking of moving Marcus Coleman to safety because he is old and slow? Newman would have started.
GB -- Maybe. Two solid entrenched vet starters. Would have been tough to crack the starting lineup initially.
Oakland -- Their two corners can't even stay healthy so that would have given Newman a leg up anyone. There are concerns out of Oakland that Buchanon might be a bust. Funny, they brought in tons of corners this offseason too.

You forgot Baltimore. He would have had a hard time with McAllister/Baxter. In my most conservative case, I can only see him not starting for 7 teams. I personally really think the number is something more like 3 or 4. Pretty good for a rookie.
Oakland has one of the best cornerbacks in the NFL.

BTW I think "Big Play" Ray is a safety this year.

Baxter isn't that good, Corey Fuller is reportedly fighting with him for a starting job this year.

I think you are wrong about a few more of these.

Kelly, Peterson, Allen, Coleman, and Clements would have kept their jobs over a rookie.

[blindzebra]

Oakland has one of the best cornerbacks in the NFL.

BTW I think "Big Play" Ray is a safety this year.

Baxter isn't that good, Corey Fuller is reportedly fighting with him for a starting job this year.

I think you are wrong about a few more of these.

Kelly, Peterson, Allen, Coleman, and Clements would have kept their jobs over a rookie.

Key word is ONE of the best. You start TWO corners.

[AdamJT13]

Kelly, Peterson, Allen, Coleman, and Clements would have kept their jobs over a rookie.

Brian Kelly was hurt last season and played in only five games. Will Peterson didn't even start a game last season. And if the Texans had Newman, Coleman would have been moved to safety last season instead of waiting until this season (when the Texans drafted Dunta Robinson to start).

Also, many of the veteran cornerbacks who might have started ahead of Newman at the beginning of the season would have lost their jobs to him by the end of the season -- sort of like Isaac Holt starting ahead of Kevin Smith for the first 11 games in 1992.

[AJM1613]

Key word is ONE of the best. You start TWO corners.
Yeah I just through it out there...because he said:


Their two corners can't even stay healthy so that would have given Newman a leg up anyone.

I was saying that no way would he have a leg up on Woodson.

[AJM1613]

Brian Kelly was hurt last season and played in only five games. Will Peterson didn't even start a game last season. And if the Texans had Newman, Coleman would have been moved to safety last season instead of waiting until this season (when the Texans drafted Dunta Robinson to start).

Also, many of the veteran cornerbacks who might have started ahead of Newman at the beginning of the season would have lost their jobs to him by the end of the season -- sort of like Isaac Holt starting ahead of Kevin Smith for the first 11 games in 1992.
Peterson started the first five games last season...and was hurt the last 11.

Kelly started the first four, took a game off and started one more before he was gone for the season.

I was talking about "if they were healthy".

I didn't hear any talk of Coleman being moved last year, but I guess that is because they didn't have anyone to take his place. He had one of his best years last year (7 interceptions).

McCree was good with the Jaguars in 2002, but didn't play well at all last year, he looked like an "up and coming" safety, until last season.

Houston was 31st in the league last season in pass defense and 10th the year before.

[AdamJT13]

Peterson started the first five games last season...and was hurt the last 11.

You're right. I was going by Pro Football Weekly's 2004 NFL Preview, which lists Peterson with zero starts.

Anyhow, I don't see how he would have beaten out Newman in training camp or held him off for more than a few games, even if he had stayed healthy.

[AdamJT13]

I didn't hear any talk of Coleman being moved last year

That was the speculation if they somehow managed to draft Newman last year. And Coleman said in 2002 that he'd be willing to move to safety and had played there in college.

[InmanRoshi]

Obviously, AJM didn't see many Texan games last year. There is a reason they wanted Dunta Robinson so bad. Marcus Coleman was absolutely horrible. They would have benched him if they had any alternative.

When ranked head to head, Dallas ranked higher in completion percentage allowed (Dallas #1 vs. Houston #14), passing yards allowed (Dallas #1 vs. Houston #16), passing TD's allowed (Dallas #9 vs. Houston #21), completions allowed (Dallas #1 vs. Houston #14). Its astounding that Houston's 2nd CB was supposedly better than Dallas' best CB last year.

[Chocolate Lab]

Is CowboyNIraq a troll? I mean that seriously.

I'm sorry he soiled this thread. It was a nice idea, Mike.

[AJM1613]

Obviously, AJM didn't see many Texan games last year. There is a reason they wanted Dunta Robinson so bad. Marcus Coleman was absolutely horrible. They would have benched him if they had any alternative.

When ranked head to head, Dallas ranked higher in completion percentage allowed (Dallas #1 vs. Houston #14), passing yards allowed (Dallas #1 vs. Houston #16), passing TD's allowed (Dallas #9 vs. Houston #21), completions allowed (Dallas #1 vs. Houston #14). Its astounding that Houston's 2nd CB was supposedly better than Dallas' best CB last year.
I never said he was better but he would have started over him, they usually give the veteran the nod in situations like that.

Newman had 4 interceptions.
Coleman had 6 interceptions.

Just in defense of Coleman even though I know that Newman is a better player.

I didn't know of any speculation that Coleman would move to safety, Houston didn't have a bad pass defense in 2002.

[AdamJT13]

I didn't know of any speculation that Coleman would move to safety

Like I said a few posts up, that was the speculation before the 2003 draft, if the Texans somehow managed to draft Newman.

[blindzebra]

Is CowboyNIraq a troll? I mean that seriously.

I'm sorry he soiled this thread. It was a nice idea, Mike.

Yes, he is. He posts things for the sole purpose of starting flame wars. A different opinion is fine, but if you have that opinion debate it intelligently. CNI posts it, runs, changes it, runs, blames Airman Daly for posting something stupid, runs, flips it again, runs, starts a new thread, runs.

I'd call that troll behavior.

[BHendri5]

Miami -- Agreed. I said that earlier.
Tampa -- I am pretty sure Newman could beat out Brian Kelly. And he would push Barber. Hardly no question.
Philly -- Agreed. I mentioned them as well.
Titans -- I think he could beat Dyson. Rolle is solid.
Giants -- Allen and Peterson. These guys don't impress me. I think he would start.
Bills -- Earlier in this thread, I said I thought he could beat out Clements.
Panthers -- What? Did you watch the Super Bowl? He could be out Manning, Jr. or Poole
Washington -- He would easily beat Smoot. Bailey is solid.
Seattle -- Started Trufant (another rookie). He would beat him.
NE -- Law is solid. I think Newman could be Tyrone Poole. Hardly no question.
Houston -- Hmm, didn't Houston draft a cornerback this year? And aren't they talking of moving Marcus Coleman to safety because he is old and slow? Newman would have started.
GB -- Maybe. Two solid entrenched vet starters. Would have been tough to crack the starting lineup initially.
Oakland -- Their two corners can't even stay healthy so that would have given Newman a leg up anyone. There are concerns out of Oakland that Buchanon might be a bust. Funny, they brought in tons of corners this offseason too.

You forgot Baltimore. He would have had a hard time with McAllister/Baxter. In my most conservative case, I can only see him not starting for 7 teams. I personally really think the number is something more like 3 or 4. Pretty good for a rookie.


Thanks, so there are 14 teams then instead of 13. So 18 teams he would have started on right off the bat.

Thanks AH Junk

[blindzebra]

Thanks, so there are 14 teams then instead of 13. So 18 teams he would have started on right off the bat.

Thanks AH Junk

No he was disagreeing with all but 3 or 4 of those 14. I see your reading comprehension has not improved.

[BHendri5]

No he was disagreeing with all but 3 or 4 of those 14. I see your reading comprehension has not improved.


No, he was agreeing. In his mind he was disagreeing, but he was actually agreeing to what I said. Both of you guys and anyone else know that I'm telling the truth.

But we'll never know because we do not have the power to trun back the hands of time to put him as a rookie on all of the teams to find out if I was wrong. And all the stats in the world cannot prove it at this point.

So it is useless to debate it any longer, because there is no way in the world you or anyone else can make me see it differently.

[blindzebra]

No, he was agreeing. In his mind he was disagreeing, but he was actually agreeing to what I said. Both of you guys and anyone else know that I'm telling the truth.

But we'll never know because we do not have the power to trun back the hands of time to put him as a rookie on all of the teams to find out if I was wrong. And all the stats in the world cannot prove it at this point.

So it is useless to debate it any longer, because there is no way in the world you or anyone else can make me see it differently.


A new high in unbelievable.

[BHendri5]

A new high in unbelievable.


You need to JUST SAY NO.
But as Rick James would say "cocaine is a Helluva drug" LOL

[AMERICAS_FAN]

Newman played 'well above average', but I won't say 'great', yet, because I think he can get even better. I say that because he did give up costly points in the playoffs vs. Carolina, and if we are going to be serious about a super bowl run, then that's the stage on which he should be judged by.

AF

[BHendri5]

Newman played 'well above average', but I won't say 'great', yet, because I think he can get even better. I say that because he did give up costly points in the playoffs vs. Carolina, and if we are going to be serious about a super bowl run, then that's the stage on which he should be judged by.

AF


Thankyou, Thank you very much. I agree with you 100%.
I said he played very well for a rookie, and I never used the word average at all.

What you said is right in line of what I have been trying to get these guys to understand. he is not great yet, but he can get there.

[junk]

No, he was agreeing. In his mind he was disagreeing, but he was actually agreeing to what I said. Both of you guys and anyone else know that I'm telling the truth.

But we'll never know because we do not have the power to trun back the hands of time to put him as a rookie on all of the teams to find out if I was wrong. And all the stats in the world cannot prove it at this point.

So it is useless to debate it any longer, because there is no way in the world you or anyone else can make me see it differently.

This might be the dumbest post I have ever read. Did you even read my post? The only thing I know is that you don't know what the heck you are talking about.

I still stick by 3-4 teams. Baltimore, Miami, maybe Philly, maybe GB. I could see arguments for 2 or 3 more. The fact still stands, he would start for the majority of the teams in the NFL last year (and this year).

[BHendri5]

This might be the dumbest post I have ever read. Did you even read my post? The only thing I know is that you don't know what the heck you are talking about.

I still stick by 3-4 teams. Baltimore, Miami, maybe Philly, maybe GB. I could see arguments for 2 or 3 more. The fact still stands, he would start for the majority of the teams in the NFL last year (and this year).


yeah I have to agree with you there on your posts. But it is funny to me that you would call your own posts dumb, but whatever floats your boat.

It is fine with me that you stick with your fantasy. I never knock a man for his fantasies.

So you stick with those 3 or 4 teams. I know You do not know what you are talking about, so I'll let you keep flapping by yourself or with the others that have like minds. LOL

[AJM1613]

You guys really have to stop...

Newman isn't a great Cornerback yet but he had the talent to start on all but a few teams (Philadelphia, Miami ect...). I think that you both agree with me on this and I really don't understand why you are still argueing.

[BHendri5]

You guys really have to stop...

Newman isn't a great Cornerback yet but he had the talent to start on all but a few teams (Philadelphia, Miami ect...). I think that you both agree with me on this and I really don't understand why you are still argueing.


I'm done with him and this whole subject. I know what I'm talking about. So he is dismissed.

[MichaelWinicki]

Newman played 'well above average', but I won't say 'great', yet, because I think he can get even better. I say that because he did give up costly points in the playoffs vs. Carolina, and if we are going to be serious about a super bowl run, then that's the stage on which he should be judged by.

AF


He should be judged by the playoffs?

What a goofy statement.

[junk]

I'm done with him and this whole subject. I know what I'm talking about. So he is dismissed.


I am going to go look for that lamp again. It will provide much better conversation.

[slick325]

I believe Newman is a special player and folks are arguing over trival things. Many coaches commented last season about the ability of Dallas to leave their corners one on one and blitz their safeties relentlessly. The corner we all worried about last season in coverage was a veteran of four years named Mario Edwards, not the rookie. Yes he had a bad game against the Panthers in the playoffs as well as getting beaten a few times during the course of the regular season. However, that will happen to all corners at some point in a season, ask Champ Bailey about last season or the great Deion Sanders when Marvin Harrison abused him his final season in Dallas or Darrell Green everytime he lined up against M. Irvin or Rocket Ismail. It happens.
Teams already began to avoid throwing at TNew last season and with an unproven Pete Hunter on the other side it will be more of the same. TNew needs to be put into more playmaking situations because offenses will phase him out of games by throwing at whoever is on the other corner. The best way to take advantage of his abilities would be to allow him to return punts as well. Glanville did it with Deion, Gibbs did the same with Darrell Green. I watched the kid when he was with KState and trust that those who abhor the Deion comparisons will have a change of heart once Coach Parcells puts the kid back there. At the very least he will change field position because teams won't throw his way nor punt his way either. The kid is currently the best corner in his division and will very likely be a 1st time Pro Bowler this season but some argue he is not established. Ask the coaches we faced last season like Belichick or Fox or Reid who spoke about only three things when they faced the Cowboys last season: Parcells coaching, TNew and Roy Williams. TNew was a great pick and is an established corner in this league, established as one who teams study AND avoid. Whether he elevates himself to the level of Law, Bailey, CWoodson, McAilister, Surtain etc.. remains to be seen but all signs point to him being there pretty darn soon. The kid is special.

[MichaelWinicki]

I believe Newman is a special player and folks are arguing over trival things. Many coaches commented last season about the ability of Dallas to leave their corners one on one and blitz their safeties relentlessly. The corner we all worried about last season in coverage was a veteran of four years named Mario Edwards, not the rookie. Yes he had a bad game against the Panthers in the playoffs as well as getting beaten a few times during the course of the regular season. However, that will happen to all corners at some point in a season, ask Champ Bailey about last season or the great Deion Sanders when Marvin Harrison abused him his final season in Dallas or Darrell Green everytime he lined up against M. Irvin or Rocket Ismail. It happens.
Teams already began to avoid throwing at TNew last season and with an unproven Pete Hunter on the other side it will be more of the same. TNew needs to be put into more playmaking situations because offenses will phase him out of games by throwing at whoever is on the other corner. The best way to take advantage of his abilities would be to allow him to return punts as well. Glanville did it with Deion, Gibbs did the same with Darrell Green. I watched the kid when he was with KState and trust that those who abhor the Deion comparisons will have a change of heart once Coach Parcells puts the kid back there. At the very least he will change field position because teams won't throw his way nor punt his way either. The kid is currently the best corner in his division and will very likely be a 1st time Pro Bowler this season but some argue he is not established. Ask the coaches we faced last season like Belichick or Fox or Reid who spoke about only three things when they faced the Cowboys last season: Parcells coaching, TNew and Roy Williams. TNew was a great pick and is an established corner in this league, established as one who teams study AND avoid. Whether he elevates himself to the level of Law, Bailey, CWoodson, McAilister, Surtain etc.. remains to be seen but all signs point to him being there pretty darn soon. The kid is special.

Good take spin... but of course it helps your cause because I agree with you. But you probably already know that...

[slick325]

Good take spin... but of course it helps your cause because I agree with you. But you probably already know that...

Thanks Mike. Good to know that I have your support. :)

[Chocolate Lab]

Something else to consider is just how much Newman has progressed each and every year he has played big-time football. He came to K-State as a largely unrecruited fast kid who was relatively new to the sport. Two years later he was forced into duty his sophomore year because of an injury in K-State's bowl game vs. Tennessee (who had Stallworth and Kelley Washington at the time IIRC) and immediately did a great job. The next year he became one of the best players in the conference, and then the next year one of the best players in the country. Not bad work in two and a half to three years.

And it's continued in the pros. I was one of his biggest fans even before we drafted him, but even I expected the Cowboys to break him in slowly, probably having him play the nickel spot until midway through the season. (Why? Because his he was still somewhat raw, not being tested much in college. And his technique wasn't perfect... Too often he stands up out of his backpedal and his footwork isn't the best.) But he was starting literally less than a week into camp for a coach whose former players have said, "Absolutely hates rookies."

And just last week, after a successful rookie season, Parcells said the guy "Has good upside" and "He wants it".

There are no guarantees on how any player will turn out, and to tell you the truth I expect some small bumps in the road for him this year. But in my observation, when you combine exceptional physical talent with a professional attitude and a strong work ethic, you almost can't go wrong. The athleticism is undoubtedly there, and Parcells himself has praised the smarts and dedication. Combine that with a humble demeanor and a stand-up attitude, and I think he's very easy to root for. Let's just say that I'm glad he's on our team and not the Eagles or Redskins. :)

[BHendri5]

thought he played well," Parcells said of Newman's performance last year.

[Roughneck]

thought he played well," Parcells said of Newman's performance last year.
Weren't you done with "this whole subject?" :rolleyes:

[Tio]

And he played as well as any other rookie...

BTW You said he did nothing...

[jobberone]

Yeah I just through it out there...because he said:




I was saying that no way would he have a leg up on Woodson.

Why do you say that as I think Woodson is no where near the player he once was?

[AJM1613]

Why do you say that as I think Woodson is no where near the player he once was?
Because Woodson is going into his 7th season and is only 27. I think you are talking about Rod or Darren, I'm talking about Charles.

[jobberone]

Because Woodson is going into his 7th season and is only 27. I think you are talking about Rod or Darren, I'm talking about Charles.

Rod is old man. Charles Woodson is only two years older than Newman so that's nearly a wash. He's played 7 years but he's got more than his share of wear and tear so the best here is a wash. But if you watch them play Newman is IMO just as good or better and has no health problems.

There is no way I would trade them st8 up. Absolutely no way. I could change my opinion about Charles Woodson if he makes a comeback this year but I don't think he can. For his sake I hope I'm wrong.

Just an opinion as there is no such thing as a player meter.